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hivedragon
2011-10-12, 02:35 PM
What is the best way to allocate Magic Skill Points of a Diablo 2 Necromancer?
(not for dueling)

Miscast_Mage
2011-10-12, 02:48 PM
Really, it depends on what you want your necromancer to do. There can be a world of difference depending on what you build your necromancer for. Have a look at the builds here (http://diablo.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Necromancer_Builds) and see which one tickles your fancy the most. Oh, and also, you might want to put Diablo II in the thread title, mate.:smallwink:

Edit: Oh, and I should probably mention, it's pretty much universal to put only enough stats into strength and dexterity to wear the equipment you want, and put everything else into vitality, ignoring energy completely. Backwards, I know, but it works.

hivedragon
2011-10-12, 02:53 PM
Oh, and also, you might want to put Diablo II in the thread title, mate.:smallwink:

Are there any other games where you get to play as a necromancer?
If there are that would be relevant to my interests.

Sharoth
2011-10-12, 03:04 PM
This sounds like fun. I may have to borrow my friend's copy of Diablo II.

Fargazer
2011-10-12, 05:27 PM
Edit: Oh, and I should probably mention, it's pretty much universal to put only enough stats into strength and dexterity to wear the equipment you want, and put everything else into vitality, ignoring energy completely. Backwards, I know, but it works.

You know, I've never really understood this. Everyone says you have to do this, presumably to be competitive in multiplayer, but I've never understood why. I played through on the easiest difficulty many times, so I really don't need optimization, but I never had any problems putting points in energy when playing magey classes. Why is vitality so superior that you HAVE to put all your points in it?

ZeltArruin
2011-10-12, 06:22 PM
It is the only stat that matters. Damage is dealt through abilities and items, defenses are mostly from items and skills. Mana comes from items enough that you don't need energy. That leaves vitality as the best stat to put points in, as the returns from it are the best.

This is assuming you are not a mana shield Sorc.

Shpadoinkle
2011-10-12, 06:50 PM
You know, I've never really understood this. Everyone says you have to do this, presumably to be competitive in multiplayer, but I've never understood why. I played through on the easiest difficulty many times, so I really don't need optimization, but I never had any problems putting points in energy when playing magey classes. Why is vitality so superior that you HAVE to put all your points in it?

When you run out of mana you just have to drink a potion and in a second or two you're good. When you run out of health you're DEAD and have to start over from town, and without your best equipment. Plus, beyond a certain point raising Energy doesn't do any good because you'll be regenerating it fast enough to cover how much you're spending.

Strength is nice but gives really crappy returns on damage. Paladins, barbarians, melee druids, etc. have skills that let them deal good damage, but they don't have many skills that let them avoid or heal damage (at least not enough to keep up with how fast they take it.) Likewise, raising Dexterity only does so much for your AR and you don't need more past a certain point, and while shields let you block stuff, they can't block everything.

Casters have no need of Dexterity because they won't be attacking and they'd have to put every spare point into it to get a decent block chance, and again, that doesn't affect a lot of things, and even if they did that, part of being a successful caster is to avoid melee so you don't die instantly. Pumping Vitality lets them survive a few hits, which is long enough to escape.

Consequently pumping vitality is the only worthwhile thing to do with your stat points once you have enough Strength and Dexterity to use your equipment.

hivedragon
2011-10-12, 10:04 PM
I think I should have specified that I wanted know how to best spend magic skills.

GoblinArchmage
2011-10-13, 02:33 AM
Don't take anything that I say seriously, as I never really understood a lot of things about the game. Anyway, my main character was a Bonemancer (I really want to make the obvious joke here), so I know some things, though not a lot of things, about Necromancers. Firstly, a lot of sources that I have looked at say to put one point into every Curse skill. I'm not sure if every curse skill is necessary, but a lot of them have their uses. Don't put more than one point into any single Curse, though, as I think that only mildly increases the radius of effect.

I don't know very much about Summoners or Poisoners, so I can't help a lot there. Like every class, though, remember that you want skills that grant synergy bonuses to each other. For Bonemancers, then, you obviously want to max out Teeth, Bone Spear, Bone Spirit, Bone Wall, and Bone Prison. Note that a lot of online guides say to never put any points in Bone Prison, but ignore that. See, there used to be a glitch that people exploited that involved a certain item called Marrowwalk, or something. Back then, if a Necromancer had zero points in Bone Prison, then Marrowwalk would automatically grant an insanely high bonus to it. Apparently, Blizzard has patched this, which means there is no longer any reason for a Bonemancer not to put points into Bone Prison.

Of course, if you're not going to be a Boner (somebody was going to do it sooner or later) then this won't help you very much, and if you are going to then it probably won't help you much either. Still, I support your choice of Class. Necromancers are awesome.

KillianHawkeye
2011-10-13, 04:43 AM
My main Necro was a summoner type. The most important thing to do is make sure you have patch 1.09 or later (or just get the latest one) because skeletons became a much stronger option then they originally were. My skeletons hardly ever die anymore, whereas I used to have to spam my Raise Skeleton skill(s) whenever corpses were around to keep my ranks up.

About the Energy issue, I know I put a lot of points into it to raise my mana regeneration rate, because summoning skills cost a lot of mana and I had to be spamming them all the time. But maybe you could get away with less Energy if you're on the latest patch. In my experience stat points were never that big of a deal anyway, and I had a bunch of characters that never spent any unless they needed to equip something they couldn't wear.

As for curses, I agree that you don't need to put more than 1 skill point into them. As a summoner, you don't really need anything but Amp Damage and possibly Iron Maiden (for bosses). Iron Maiden was more useful when skeletons couldn't really do anything besides take damage, so you might not even need that. I also put a point into Life Tap, but it was pretty much a waste for me.

Pick the golem you like the best and stick with it. Personally, I liked the Blood Golem, but the Fire Golem is also a strong choice.

I don't have much experience with the bone or poison skills. If you play a summoner, you won't really need them, and summoners really need a lot of skill points if you want to max out on skeletons, skeleton mages, skeleton mastery, and still want to have a golem and revived monsters. My Necromancer is around level 67 or so (haven't played in a few years) and aside from 3 points in curses, all of his skill points went into summoning, and I'm wearing a lot of +Skill items to boot.

Trang-Oul's Scales is probably the best armor you will ever get, but you won't be able to wear it until you're high level.

Finally, make sure to get a soldier guy with a useful aura from Act 2. If you play with Paladins, get an aura that they're not focused on. My guy had the defense aura, which worked out pretty well. The only downside is when you start playing, he won't activate his aura until he gets into a fight, so you have to wait before summoning your undead horde and just use the soldier and your golem until he activates it. After that, he doesn't really need to do any fighting because the skeletons will take care of everything. It's pretty hilarious walking through any part of the game with 30+ skeletons annihilating everything in their path, and you hardly have do anything but pick up gold and items. :smallamused::smallbiggrin:

Runestar
2011-10-13, 07:06 AM
For me, I concentrated on maxing out raise skeleton ASAP (this entailed placing all your skill points from lv2-20 in raise skeleton). More ranks means more skeletons with more hp and dealing more damage. You will also want 1 point in amplify damage and maybe clay golem (I was able to get a wand for this).

The reason for clay golem is that there is supposedly a bug with its slow ability. Any boss hit with both its slow feature and decrepify curse will not use their special abilities. This makes fights with powerful enemies like Duriel and Baal a walkover, because they just stand there and attack with their pathetic melee attack.

From lv21+ onwards, I then focused on pumping skeletal mastery, with a point in decrepify at lv24. You can just manage this with the extra 4 skill points from den of evil, book of skill and that quest in act 4.

After maxing out these 2 skills, look towards pumping revive and maybe summon resist, because skeletons start becoming inefficient in 8player nightmare onwards.

This was with my untwinked necro for singleplayer.

Statwise, I didn't need mana, since my skellies rarely ever died, and I used mana potions only for the initial summoning. Didn't bother with dex either (used skeletal heads for the + to skills, which have poor block rates), got just enough str for my gear, and the rest to vit for lack of a better alternative. Sounds boring, but is quite effective. In 8player mode, the skeletons basically did all the work. I just hung back and cast amplify damage every few seconds. :smallsmile:

Spartacus
2011-10-13, 07:14 AM
Interestingly, if you slow certain enemies enough (like if you cold/decreptify/clay golem something) they actually cannot do anything, as the animation takes so long to complete they start the next one before the first one finishes, so they never do anything.

Shpadoinkle
2011-10-13, 09:25 AM
Interestingly, if you slow certain enemies enough (like if you cold/decreptify/clay golem something) they actually cannot do anything, as the animation takes so long to complete they start the next one before the first one finishes, so they never do anything.

I used that combination on Diablo. Between my cold mages (I never used mages normally because they're way too fragile and their damage sucks, but in this instance they were useful because of the slow effect,) my clay golem, and Decrepify (which I had to refresh every second or so because he has a property that reduces curse duration by something like 90%) he was slowed to the point that he couldn't do anything while my skeletons carved him up. It took a while, though.

Klorox
2011-10-13, 09:32 AM
I've only played DII as a solo, never in multiplayer.

The Necromancer was my most powerful character. I pumped all my points into skeletons and the skeleton boosting abilities. After that, I remember getting one type of golem up there, and having a few skeletal mages. I'd just walk around picking up the good stuff while my army handled everything.

Sometimes bosses would be a little tough, because they seem to really handle summons easily.

I did sink some points into energy early on, but the vast majority of points went into vitality. I put some into strength so I could wear the best armor, and I never put a point into dexterity.

hajo
2011-10-13, 07:16 PM
I played through on the easiest difficulty many times, ...
I never had any problems putting points in energy when playing magey classes.
Why is vitality so superior that you HAVE to put all your points in it?
This is because normal difficulty is easy. :smalltongue:

The aim is to build a char that can play thru hell difficulty.
There, you need as much life as possible (minimum 800-1200), and every point spent elsewhere (without good reason) is wasted.

Also, consider when you get hit for more than 1/12 your health (say, 100 damage), you get stunned, i.e. you are in "hit recovery" and cannot act for about a second.
During this time, you are likely to get another hit... etc.

Gaius Marius
2011-10-13, 07:32 PM
Are there any other games where you get to play as a necromancer?
If there are that would be relevant to my interests.

If you ever finds out, please msg me.

A Overlord-style game but grittier as a Necromancer would be awesome as hell.

KillianHawkeye
2011-10-13, 09:33 PM
Also, consider when you get hit for more than 1/12 your health (say, 100 damage), you get stunned, i.e. you are in "hit recovery" and cannot act for about a second.
During this time, you are likely to get another hit... etc.

But Necromancers don't NEED to do anything. That's why you have minions. :smallbiggrin:

Unless you don't have minions, then I guess you need a lot of HP.

turbo164
2011-10-13, 10:04 PM
Are there any other games where you get to play as a necromancer?
If there are that would be relevant to my interests.

Guild Wars has a fun one; the Death Nova spell turns one of your minions into a walking poison bomb :) Rift, Everquest, and some others have them as well, but I have not played those.

As for advice, pretty much ditto what others have said. If summoner, max Raise Skeleton and Skeletal Mastery, get a point in Clay Golem, Golem Mastery, Summon Resist, Skeletal Mage, Revive, one of each curse, Corpse Explosion, Bone Armor. Additional points can go in whatever, most people like at least a few more in Corpse Explosion (though it seems odd to blow up corpses you could be raising...you'll often get your first corpse from Merc + Golem + Iron Maiden. Blow that up and you'll get a bunch of skeleton/revive targets REALLY fast rather than waiting for your one skeleton to help chop down the second, etc).

Best merc is Act 2 Offensive from Nightmare difficulty, which gives Might aura. The others are *useful*, but aren't nearly as noticeable in the late game.

For bone necros, ditto also. Max the bone nukes/walls/prison, with one point in Bone Armor, Corpse Explosion, Clay Golem + Mastery, and curses.

Drasius
2011-10-13, 10:47 PM
What is the best way to allocate Magic Skill Points of a Diablo 2 Necromancer?
(not for dueling)

Boners are possibly the easiest build of all characters. I solo'd one through hell on hardcore with pretty much only the gear I found in Act 1 normal.

Curses are no use to you except 1 point in Amplify Damage since none of them affect magic damage (not even lower resist). Bone spear will be your main spell as the ability to hit multiple targets and eventually higher damage than spirit makes it the best of the 2 options.

Max out Bone wall and prison, then spam them till the screen is full and nothing can move since they have virtually no mana cost and will not only pin in bad guys, but will stop every single ranged attack in the game except Auras, Cold novas from CE monsters, Meteors from vampires, Diablos fire and lightning attacks and Baals manadrill.

Merc must be an act 1 rogue as she is the only one that can fire through bone walls (technically the others CAN, but since they are all melee and the A3 sorc's projectiles will get blocked...). This is the other reason to get amp since it will help her kill the 3 or 4 things which are magic immune as well as helping your corpse explosion (the physical part anyway).

1 pint only in bone armour as it gets better resturns from increasing wall and prison and they increase your damage as well.

20 points in wall, prison, spear, spirit
1 in CE, BA, teeth and Amp is 84 points, or lvl 73 with all Quest rewards (though you probably won't have the last 2 from Hell Tyreal by then). The rest of the points I would suggest to go into teeth for more damage, but you can really do whatever you like as you are almost invincible.

Gear is fast cast, mana and + bone skills, with +skills being the priority later (>50ish) and mana being the priority earlier (<30ish). "Bone" wand is a nice touch, extra style points for making "Bone" in a bone wand.

Better control than summoner, less micro, less damage output but roughly the same killspeed. The only thing to watch out for is extra-fast bad guys since they can cause you to lock yourself in your bone forrest with them, and that doesn't end well when you only have ~150 armour and 4-600 life.

Due to the required bone forrest for immobilisation, this is not a melee party friendly build, but then if you have someone to tank for you, you can just sit back and spam spear so it won't matter that much. Sorcs will benefit, especially anyone who uses meteor, FoHadins too since IIRC they get an extra holy bolt for each wall segment, but it's been a while since I played one.

GoblinArchmage
2011-10-14, 05:37 AM
For a Boner, I would think that one would eventually want to max Teeth for the synergy to Bone Spear.

MonarchAnarch
2011-10-14, 07:50 AM
I figured I'd be a minority on this thread. I made a poison necro (no bone spells, no skeleton minion skills - took clay golem) because I had never seen one. And wow. Seriously, WOW.

Poison is really a under-rated path for Necromancers. Starting off is a bit rough, I will admit. Get a wand that gives a +x to your golem to get you by the early levels.

About lvl 8 or 10 things really start moving along. Poison nova will be your bread and butter. Run into a room, hit nova 1-2 times, everything turns green. Run out and let everything die of poison. The real hard hitter is poison knife. The basic skill. The damage scales so high on that skill! Run in, stabbed the named mob once or twice, nova 1-2 times and run out of the room and stop only to hear the sound of gear and coin hitting the floor.

The main curse you need is the resistance debuff. And put more than 1 point into it. More points will lower their poison resistance and increase the spread of the curse. You want it high enough to cover the whole room, just cast once. Even when you get to mobs that have "poison resistance", the curse drops them out of that category and they will take poison damage.

Try it out, its a LOT faster of a run through than minions.

danzibr
2011-10-14, 11:16 AM
I figured I'd be a minority on this thread. I made a poison necro (no bone spells, no skeleton minion skills - took clay golem) because I had never seen one. And wow. Seriously, WOW.

Poison is really a under-rated path for Necromancers. Starting off is a bit rough, I will admit. Get a wand that gives a +x to your golem to get you by the early levels.

About lvl 8 or 10 things really start moving along. Poison nova will be your bread and butter. Run into a room, hit nova 1-2 times, everything turns green. Run out and let everything die of poison. The real hard hitter is poison knife. The basic skill. The damage scales so high on that skill! Run in, stabbed the named mob once or twice, nova 1-2 times and run out of the room and stop only to hear the sound of gear and coin hitting the floor.

The main curse you need is the resistance debuff. And put more than 1 point into it. More points will lower their poison resistance and increase the spread of the curse. You want it high enough to cover the whole room, just cast once. Even when you get to mobs that have "poison resistance", the curse drops them out of that category and they will take poison damage.

Try it out, its a LOT faster of a run through than minions.
I made a Poisonmancer. I called him a Daggermancer though. And oh man did he suck. Poison dagger gets ridiculous damage but takes freakin' FOREVER to deal the damage. Too many mobs are immune to poison later on for a Poisonmancer to be good. And what you said about curses is right, but you have to invest pretty heavily in curses IIRC, taking away from your poison.

I mean, I absolutely loved him, but he was janktastic.

I usually made Lagmancers, or Summonancers, or whatever you want to call them. The major problem with them is bosses. Diablo will totally own your skellies and there aren't enough corpses to keep fighting. Also, if you do make a Lagmancer, the best skill you can get is teleport.

So, sadly, Bonemancer is probably the way to go. I loved my Daggermancer and my Lagmancer, but they have huge flaws which Bonemancers do not have.

Shpadoinkle
2011-10-14, 12:36 PM
danzibr, when was the last time you played a summoner? Skeleton warriors were given a serious buff a little while ago and now summoners are considered one of the strongest builds in the game. They also aren't universally hated on Bnet anymore because the number of skeletons they can raise at once was given a pretty significant cut.

But yes, Teleport is ungodly useful for a summoner, especially in tight, horrible little passages like the maggot lair or the Arcane Sanctuary in act 2.

tyckspoon
2011-10-14, 12:44 PM
Curses are no use to you except 1 point in Amplify Damage since none of them affect magic damage (not even lower resist). Bone spear will be your main spell as the ability to hit multiple targets and eventually higher damage than spirit makes it the best of the 2 options.


Dim Vision (or whichever one it is that lowers enemy sight radius) is nice too for letting you blast monsters while they mill around aimlessly all "whut hit me I don't see anything argh I'm dead." But I suppose that's redundant with your everything-is-locked-in-walls strategy.


danzibr, when was the last time you played a summoner? Skeleton warriors were given a serious buff a little while ago and now summoners are considered one of the strongest builds in the game.

Act bosses still tend to explode them, IME, except for strong Revive monsters; the skellies just don't have the HP/resists to survive the AoE elemental attacks.

Starwulf
2011-10-14, 10:32 PM
I figured I'd be a minority on this thread. I made a poison necro (no bone spells, no skeleton minion skills - took clay golem) because I had never seen one. And wow. Seriously, WOW.

Poison is really a under-rated path for Necromancers. Starting off is a bit rough, I will admit. Get a wand that gives a +x to your golem to get you by the early levels.

About lvl 8 or 10 things really start moving along. Poison nova will be your bread and butter. Run into a room, hit nova 1-2 times, everything turns green. Run out and let everything die of poison. The real hard hitter is poison knife. The basic skill. The damage scales so high on that skill! Run in, stabbed the named mob once or twice, nova 1-2 times and run out of the room and stop only to hear the sound of gear and coin hitting the floor.

The main curse you need is the resistance debuff. And put more than 1 point into it. More points will lower their poison resistance and increase the spread of the curse. You want it high enough to cover the whole room, just cast once. Even when you get to mobs that have "poison resistance", the curse drops them out of that category and they will take poison damage.

Try it out, its a LOT faster of a run through than minions.

Ahh, the joys of a perfect Bramble Poisonmancer! I only ever made one Poisonmancer, but he was indeed a beast. Did around 100k or so Poison damage from what I remember(fully decked out though, because I knew that they just weren't strong enough without top notch gear). They are extremely rare though, when I finally stopped playing mine, it took me months to trade away my perfect Bramble armor ><

GoblinArchmage
2011-10-15, 03:56 AM
Also, if you do make a Lagmancer, the best skill you can get is teleport.



But yes, Teleport is ungodly useful for a summoner, especially in tight, horrible little passages like the maggot lair or the Arcane Sanctuary in act 2.

Unfortunately, Necromancers require a specific item to pull that off. On that note, I think that the extreme item dependency coupled with the rarity of the better items was the worst part of Diablo II for me.

KillianHawkeye
2011-10-15, 05:36 AM
Lagmancers

LOL, it's funny you should use that name for them. My necromancer was actually named LAG_MAN because he caused some serious lag with 30+ skeletons and a dozen revived monsters following him around. He was like a super hero if there was a super hero whose power was to create lag. :smallbiggrin:

Drasius
2011-10-15, 06:54 AM
But yes, Teleport is ungodly useful for a summoner, especially in tight, horrible little passages like the maggot lair or the Arcane Sanctuary in act 2.

One of the other things about a Boner is that they absolutely ****ing love the maggot lair. Lots of long straight passageways with very little chance of getting ambushed. It is an absolutely magical place and they would be one of the only characters ever to shine there.

ObadiahtheSlim
2011-10-17, 07:05 AM
Decrepify on act bosses helps too. Add in your clay golem's slow and maybe a source of freeze. Act bosses will attack so slow while your minions wail on him. Strong revives will live even longer.

Psyren
2011-10-17, 09:49 AM
Boner is my favorite build in the game. They don't have the raw magic output of Hammerdins but they're also not a pain to use in enclosed spaces. Coupled with an Insight Freeze merc, you'll have limitless ammo and nothing will get close to you.

Note that for poisonmancers - one (expensive) option for an alternate attack is to resist debuff and spam Fire Golem around the enemy. The repeated explosions will take a few down, and then you can use corpse explosion + amplify to mop up. You can combo this with an Act 1 or Act 3 merc to devastating effect. The Trang fire mastery bonus will affect your golem too.

Forbiddenwar
2011-10-17, 02:27 PM
I've started a summoner after reading this thread. It was my first character when Diablo 2 came out, I got as far as diablo, but couldn't kill him. Glad they got a bit of a buff. It's revenge time.

hajo
2011-10-18, 07:35 PM
BTW, next ladder-reset has been announced for Oct.25 2011.

Gaius Marius
2011-10-18, 09:00 PM
I've started a summoner after reading this thread. It was my first character when Diablo 2 came out, I got as far as diablo, but couldn't kill him. Glad they got a bit of a buff. It's revenge time.

Skelly or Golem?

KillianHawkeye
2011-10-18, 09:03 PM
Skelly or Golem?

I think the word you were looking for was AND.

hajo
2011-10-25, 12:26 PM
Skelly or Golem?

You want both.
You can have many skellies, mages and revives, but when they are down, you need corpses to get fresh ones.
OTOH, you can always create a golem, even with no corpses around.
E.g. at Duriel - just spam decrypify/golem/walls/spears etc. :smallamused:

Also, for playing offline, i can recommand PlugY (http://plugy.free.fr/en/index.html) and ATMA (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=751371) for managing the inventory.


BTW, ladder-reset is now running...

Forbiddenwar
2011-10-25, 01:27 PM
Skelly or Golem?
Mostly skele. Thats what I'm putting my skill points into. As for when they die, well they don't. Only time I've had to cast the summons so far is when loading my game. But I do play to put some skill points into a golem, probably clay golem. Is a Fire golem immune to diablos fire attacks?

ObadiahtheSlim
2011-10-25, 02:37 PM
Yes, but Diablo also has a nasty lightning attack. Clay golem is nice because he has an innate slow debuff on his attack.

Psyren
2011-10-26, 05:27 AM
Yes, but Diablo also has a nasty lightning attack.

If you want to get technical, it's 50/50 lightning/physical. (It also hurts more than the pain of a 1000 suns.)


Is a Fire golem immune to diablos fire attacks?

Honestly, Fire golem is only worth it for a poisonmancer (who will have invested in lower resist anyway), and barely even then.

Forbiddenwar
2011-10-26, 07:19 AM
I'll stick with clay golem then.