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NeoSeraphi
2011-10-13, 12:29 AM
The Shield Warrior

http://i937.photobucket.com/albums/ad214/Archangel_EPOB/DnD4e_Pics_project/People/Dragon37012-cedrickdragonwornagentoftiamat.jpg

"The best offense is a strong defense." "What? That doesn't make any sen-" A shield master and his foe, who was unable to finish his sentence due to the shield master beating him over the head with a tower shield.

Special: All dwarves and dwarf subraces may treat shield warrior as their favored class instead of whatever it is listed as in the book.

Alignment: Any

Hit Dice: d10

Class Skills: The shield master's class skills are Appraise, Climb, Craft, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Profession, Spot, and Swim

Skill Points: A shield master gets 2+Int skill points per level, x4 at 1st level

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|+1|+2|+0|+0|Shield Fighting, Shield Focus

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+0|Perfect Defense

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+1|Shield Charge

4th|+4|+4|+1|+1|Defensive Strike, Two Shields as One

5th|+5|+4|+1|+1|Bonus Feat

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|Shield Slam

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+2|Shield of Vitality

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+2|Shield Knockback, Spell Deflection

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+3|Shield Sling

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|Bonus Feat

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3|Armor Mastery

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|Improved Shield of Vitality

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4|Greater Defensive Strike, Greater Two Shields as One

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4|Tower Defense

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5|Bonus Feat, Spell Reflection

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5|Smashing Pumpkins

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|Greater Shield of Vitality

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|Shield Supremacy

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6|Shield Press

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|Bonus Feat, Divine Aegis

[/table]

Class Features: The shield master has the following class features:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The shield master is proficient with bucklers, light and heavy shields, tower shields, all types of spiked shields and all exotic shields (Races of Stone). He is not proficient with any other weapons. The shield master is proficient with light, medium, and heavy armor, as well as Battle Plate and Mountain Plate (Races of Stone).

Shield Fighting (Ex): A shield master is, as the name suggests, a master of shields. Unlike most warriors, a shield master can use any type of shield as a weapon. All shields deal bludgeoning damage. A buckler deals 1d3 damage for a Medium shield master, and is treated as a light weapon. A tower shield is a two-handed weapon that deals 1d10 base damage for a Medium shield master. An exotic shield deals 1d6 base damage if it has a shield bonus to AC of +2, 1d8 base damage if it has a shield bonus to AC of +3, and 1d10 base damage if it has a shield bonus to AC of +4 or higher. All exotic shields are two-handed weapons.

Putting spikes on a buckler costs half as much as putting them on a light or heavy shield. Putting spikes on a tower shield costs 2000 gp, and can only be placed on a masterwork tower shield. Putting spikes on an exotic shield costs 1000 gp. No matter which shield you place spikes on, it still increases the shield's bashing damage by 2 size categories.

A tower shield's penalty to attack rolls does not apply when a shield master uses the tower shield itself as a weapon.

Tower shields and exotic shields threaten a critical on a natural 20 and deal double damage with a successful confirmation.

Shield Focus (Ex): A shield master gains the Improved Shield Bash feat as a bonus feat. He also gains the Weapon Focus feat and the Shield Specialization feat (PHB II) for any shield he is currently wielding, and may take fighter only feats that require Weapon Focus as a prerequisite as if he were a fighter of his shield master level, but only for weapon-specific feats that target shields. (A 6th level shield master could choose Weapon Specialization (Spiked Tower Shield) as a feat, or a 9th level shield master could choose Greater Weapon Focus (Buckler) as a feat)

Perfect Defense (Ex): A shield master of 2nd level or higher adds his shield bonus to AC to his touch AC, as well as his opposed Strength and Dexterity checks to resist being grappled, overrun, tripped, or bull rushed. If a shield master's shield is made of riverine (Stormwrack) he treats that shield's deflection bonus as if it were part of the shield's shield bonus, adds the two together, then adds the total to the above checks/AC. (A shield master with a riverine shield gets a Deflection bonus and Shield bonus to his AC)

Additionally, as a full-round action, a shield master may drop into a defensive stance that offers him tactical advantage, encouraging glancing blows rather than full hit-or-miss defense. His shield bonus to AC disappears, and instead he gains DR 2/- per point of shield bonus to AC, to a maximum of DR Class Level/-. (For example, a 10th level shield master adopting this stance with a tower shield would get DR 8/-, or DR 10/- if it was a +1 tower shield. If it was a +2 tower shield, he would still only get DR 10/- because of the level cap)

The lack of AC and the DR gained continue until either the shield master leaves his stance willingly (a swift action) or combat ends, at which point the shield master's adrenaline does not flow enough to allow him the necessary instinctive movement to protect rather than block.



Shield Charge (Ex): A 3rd level shield master gets the Shield Charge feat (Complete Warrior) as a bonus feat, and no longer requires an Intelligence score of 13 to take the Combat Expertise and Improved Trip feats. (He still needs an Intelligence score of 13 to take other feats, such as Improved Disarm) A shield master receives a +4 bonus on Trip attempts made with an exotic or tower shield. If a shield master fails a Trip attempt with a shield, he may drop the shield as a free action. If he does, the opponent does not get a chance to Trip him.

Defensive Strike (Ex): A 4th level shield master gains the ability to deliver a defensive strike. A shield master must be wielding a tower shield in both hands to make a defensive strike. As a full-round action, the shield master makes a single melee attack roll at his highest attack bonus with a -2 penalty. After the attack resolves (whether the shield master hits or not) he immediately crouches into the defensive stance of the tower shield. He no longer threatens any squares, but his tower shield grants him and his equipment total cover.


Two Shields as One (Ex): A 4th level shield master gains the Agile Shield Fighter feat as a bonus feat, ignoring prerequisites. He may wield two heavy/light shields, one in each hand; or two bucklers, one on each arm, and stacks their shield bonuses to his AC and to all class features that calculate shield bonuses.

Additionally, due to the sheer weight of his shields, the shield master uses his full Strength modifier when calculating the damage of his off-hand attacks with a shield.

Bonus Feat (Ex): A 5th level shield master gains a bonus feat, which can be any feat he qualifies for. A shield master gains an additional bonus feat at level 10, 15, and 20.

Shield Slam (Ex): At 6th level, the shield master gains the Shield Slam feat (Complete Warrior) as a bonus feat. The DC for the Fortitude save to avoid being dazed is increased by 4 if the shield master is wielding his shield in two hands.

Shield of Vitality (Su): A 7th level shield master has begun to awaken his supernatural capabilities, allowing himself access to even greater defensive capabilities from his shield. A 7th level shield master adds his shield bonus to AC (or his combined shield and deflection bonus to AC, if his shield is riverine) to his Fortitude saves. He no longer fails a Fortitude save on a natural one.

Shield Knockback (Ex): An 8th level shield master gains the ability to deliver a single forceful blow against an opponent. As a full-round action or at the end of a charge, a shield master may make a single attack with a shield at his highest attack bonus. If he hits and deals damage, he may attempt to Bull Rush his opponent as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. The shield master gains a bonus on his opposed Strength check equal to the damage dealt by his attack. The shield master may knock the opponent as far back as his opposed check would allow, but he may not move with the opponent.


Spell Deflection (Su): At 8 level when a Shield Master is the subject of a ranged touch attack spell, he can make a melee attack at his highest BAB as a immediate action against the casters opposing attack X times per encounter, where X is his Class level/4. The Shield Masters attack roll becomes his new AC. If the caster misses, the spell does not effect the Shield Master and is deflected off his shield to a square two squares away. To determine which square, roll a d20. If the result is over 16, the spell dissipated. Otherwise, the spell hits the square corresponding to the number rolled. The numbers start directly north of the PC and ascend in a clockwise order. By taking a -4 penalty to the attack the Shield Master can ensure that the spell does not hit an ally. If the spell does when deflected, it instead dissipated.


Shield Sling (Ex): A 9th level shield master gains the Shield Sling (PHB II) feat as a bonus feat, with the following changes:

The range for this feat becomes 80 feet.

The shield master can throw any shield. All shields deal damage as normal. The shield master still cannot attempt to trip with a buckler with this feat.

The shield master needs two hands to throw an exotic or tower shield, and deals 1 1/2 times his Strength modifier in bonus damage rather than just his Strength modifier.

The shield master uses his Strength modifier instead of his Dexterity modifier for his ranged attack rolls with a shield. If the shield master has the Brutal Throw feat, he gains a +2 insight bonus on his ranged attack rolls with a shield.

Armor Mastery (Ex): The shield master is a tower of metal and plate, and yet he is able to charge through battle with no hesitation. Starting at 11th level, a shield master retains his full movement speed in medium and heavy armor, as well as Battle and Mountain Plate armor, and even while wielding a tower shield.

Improved Shield of Vitality (Su): A 12th level shield master is guarded by the magical aura that his shield emanates (Even if that shield is mundane). A 12th level shield master is under a constant death ward effect as long as he bears a shield (Caster level equal to his class level)

Greater Defensive Strike (Ex): At 13th level, a shield master's defensive power improves. When the shield master makes a defensive strike, he may now make a full attack routine, without the penalty associated with defensive strike to his attack rolls.

Greater Two Shields as One (Ex): A 13th level shield master gains the Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting feat as a bonus feat, ignoring all prerequisites (including the epic prerequisite). He may only two-weapon fight with bucklers, or with light or heavy shields.

Tower Defense (Su): At 14th level and higher, when a shield master is granted total cover by his tower shield or if he takes the total defense action while wielding a tower shield (or uses the Combat Expertise feat with at least a -5 penalty), he also is treated as if he is displaced, with a caster level equal to his class level.


Spell Reflection (Su): At 15th level the Shield Master can reflect spells upon their caster, instead of deflecting them y times per day, where y is Class level/5. If the Shield master successfully deflects a spell he can instead choose to reflect it by making a ranged touch attack against the caster.


Smashing Pumpkins (Ex): An axe that is swung with ferocious might hurts quite a lot. A tower shield that is swung with ferocious might...well...your opponent might as well have shot a gazebo with a +3 arrow. Starting at level 16, whenever a shield master uses the Power Attack feat while attacking with a shield, he gains a bonus on damage rolls equal to his class level (This bonus is in addition to the bonus that is provided by the Power Attack feat)

This bonus even applies to Power Attacks made with a buckler.

Greater Shield of Vitality (Sp): At 17th level, a shield master's shield is an aegis of powerful magic that will not let its master fall. Whenever a shield master's hit points fall below half his maximum hit point total, if he is holding a shield it will automatically cast a conjuration (healing) spell on him as an immediate action (The shield is never considered flat-footed). The shield is able to cast 5 cure light wounds, 4 cure moderate wounds, 3 cure serious wounds, 2 cure critical wounds and 1 heal per day, as spell-like abilities with a caster level equal to the shield master's class level.

The shield uses its wielder's latent magical power and vitality to awaken this miracle, so it refreshes its spell list after the shield master has eight hours of rest.

If the shield that the shield master wields is an intelligent item, the shield master may ask it to heal him at any time. Otherwise, the shield reacts automatically and the shield master has no control over its spellcasting.

Shield Supremacy (Ex): An 18th level shield master gains the Weapon Supremacy feat (PHB II) with any shield he is wielding. He need not meet the prerequisites. The +1 shield bonus granted by the feat is added to the shield's base shield bonus to AC. (This does not change an exotic shield's base damage)

Additionally, any shield the shield master wields now threatens a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20, and deals triple damage on a successful confirmation.

Shield Press (Ex): As a full-round action, a shield master of 19th level or higher may attempt a shield press. A shield press requires making a Jump check (DC 30) to leap over a foe. A shield master may not leap over a creature that is more than 100 feet taller than him, or more than 100 feet in the air above him.

Once the shield master is in the air, he starts to fall, bracing his shield to impact. The shield master makes a dive attack, which grants him all the normal bonuses for charging and allows him to deal double damage on a successful hit with his shield.

If a creature was standing on the ground when it was hit with a Shield Press, then the creature must make a Reflex save (DC 20+the shield master's Strength modifier+8 if the weapon in question was a tower shield, or +4 if the weapon in question was a non-tower shield that was Large size or larger, or +2 if the weapon in question was a non-tower shield of Medium size) or fall prone. If the creature was flying, it must instead make a Reflex save with the same DC or be pushed into the ground under the shield, taking double the normal amount of falling damage due to the sheer momentum and weight of the attack.

Either way, the shield master may stand up as a free action after this and take a 5' step.

Divine Aegis (Su, Sp): Since the shield master picked up his shield all that time ago, he has felt power emanating from it. Power he couldn't quite understand, until now. At 20th level, the Aegis, a powerful Giant God who rules over the plane of extraplanar giants known as Gargantua, finally acknowledges the shield master as a true warrior, rather than just an admirable chap who Aegis would assist from time to time because he was bored.

The shield master's divine power, as well as all of his supernatural and spell-like class features, come from Aegis, who demands nothing in return, but will strip all those features if the shield master ever directly challenges Aegis himself. Additionally, the shield master may seek guidance from Aegis. He gains the ability to cast commune as a spell-like ability with no XP cost once per week, with any shield as his divine focus.

Finally, any shield that the shield master wields becomes a deadly weapon and armor. The shield master's shield bash attacks deal force damage rather than normal damage, bypassing all damage reduction and miss chance of incorporeal creatures. The shield grants the shield master DR X/Lawful and Evil, where X is the shield's total AC bonus, including feats and enhancement bonuses. (Aegis is Chaotic Good)



Slashing Shield
Prerequisite: Improved Shield Bash, Shield of Vitality class feature
Benefit: As a swift action, you may shift your stance from a smashing position, to a slashing position, or to a stabbing position with your shield. (Default stance for shields is smashing, default stance for spiked shields is stabbing) A stance lasts until you change it. While you are in the smashing stance, your shield bashes deal bludgeoning damage. While you are in the stabbing stance, your shield bashes deal piercing damage. While you are in the slashing stance, your shield bashes deal slashing damage.

Special: A character with the Shield Slam feat may only use that feat if his shield deals bludgeoning damage, or if his spiked shield deals piercing damage.

Domriso
2011-10-13, 01:05 AM
Heee, I do love me a shield fighter. No idea on balance, though this does look like a fighting man I would play. I love some of the abilities, though (the Shield of Vitality abilities are all fun).

YouLostMe
2011-10-13, 01:17 AM
Shield Fighting (Ex): A shield master is, as the name suggests, a master of shields.
Well damn, I never would have guessed:smallsmile:


All shields deal bludgeoning damage. A buckler deals 1d3 damage for a Medium shield master, and is treated as a light weapon. A tower shield is a two-handed weapon that deals 1d10 base damage for a Medium shield master. An exotic shield deals 1d6 base damage if it has a shield bonus to AC of +2, 1d8 base damage if it has a shield bonus to AC of +3, and 1d10 base damage if it has a shield bonus to AC of +4 or higher. All exotic shields are two-handed weapons.

Putting spikes on a buckler costs half as much as putting them on a light or heavy shield. Putting spikes on a tower shield costs 2000 gp, and can only be placed on a masterwork tower shield. Putting spikes on an exotic shield costs 1000 gp. No matter which shield you place spikes on, it still increases the shield's bashing damage by 2 size categories.

A tower shield's penalty to attack rolls does not apply when a shield master uses the tower shield itself as a weapon.
I think this stuff should be in a sidebar outside the class. Having shields deal damage implies that others can use them as weapons (though they wouldn't be proficient), so it's applicable to everyone and deserves to be designated as so.


Shield Focus (Ex): That's an awful lot of bonus feats right off the bat. I don't actually know how good they are, but from the outset it seems intimidating. Maybe spread them out a bit? Or you could tell me that they're all weak and I'm wasting my time here. Either or.


Perfect Defense (Ex): Solid.


Shield Charge (Ex): WHY SO MANY FEATS? I NO HAS THESE BOOKS. In other news, this appears to be the first activate ability I've seen in the class... sort of. It'd be nice to have some sort of active contingent defensive boost, possibly to decrease the ridiculous feat density at these levels.


Defensive Strike (Ex):I started off wanting an exotic shield, but this thing makes me want a tower shield... so I'm thinking, with these different Shield-reliant abilities (I assume there will be a lot that rely on different kinds of shields), wouldn't it be nice to allow the Shield Master to switch shield as a swift action or something?


Bonus Feat (Ex): Just in case my list of bonus feats isn't long enough. :smallwink: More passives here still.


Shield Slam (Ex): This sounds like an active ability to me! So far, this class seems mostly useful for a tower-shield-wielder.


Shield of Vitality (Su): I'd just add it to all saves. Paladins get their Cha to saves at lower levels, and that class from Dungeonscape gets Int to initiative at a much lower level, so adding a Shield Bonus to all saves is probably OK. Also, I don't think you fail saves on a natural one. I'm pretty sure that's just attacks.


Shield Knockback (Ex): I see no reason for this to be shield knockback if the shield master can do it with any weapon. Also, +damage to a bullrush check is just asking to be the god of bullrushing. That's nice, IMO, but you're effectively guaranteeing a successful bullrush. I'm not sure if you intended that, but I certainly don't mind it.


Shield Sling (Ex): Another feat, can't review. :smallannoyed: From what I read, though, this seems pretty interesting. It totally doesn't make sense to throw away the thing that you've based your entire schtick around, but I can see some sort of use.


Armor Mastery (Ex):This is late late late. I wanted this back at fifth level.


Greater Shield of Vitality (Su): This is nice. With him seeming like a tank/defender/support sort of theme, it would be nice to allow him to send his spell effect to an ally for one turn. The extra benefit wouldn't be too much, especially since casters got this spell 5 levels ago and can use it on anyone.


Greater Defensive Strike (Ex):I can't stop laughing at the image of some huge guy hitting a goblin over and over with a shield and then turtling like those orcs at the battle for helms deep. I'd rather use the other active abilities than this, but it's all right. It would be nice to have something else here.


Tower Defense (Su): You have total cover. Enemies probably don't care about hitting you and will move on to stab the team wizard... why would this be useful?

Also, you appear to have some dead levels there. Overall, decent class, but it has a bit of an active defensive focus without tanking abilities, which is not nice for teamwork. What's the job of this class?

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-13, 01:38 AM
I think this stuff should be in a sidebar outside the class. Having shields deal damage implies that others can use them as weapons (though they wouldn't be proficient), so it's applicable to everyone and deserves to be designated as so.


No. It takes a very special amount of training to use one of these shields to deal damage, much like a monk dealing additional damage with an unarmed strike.



That's an awful lot of bonus feats right off the bat. I don't actually know how good they are, but from the outset it seems intimidating. Maybe spread them out a bit? Or you could tell me that they're all weak and I'm wasting my time here. Either or.


Improved Shield Bash- Able to make a shield bash attack and keep your Shield's AC bonus during your turn. It's about as essential as Improved Unarmed Strike is to a monk.

Weapon Focus- +1 to hit. The ability to take Weapon Spec and etc is nice, but this class doesn't grant those feats, it just gives you the option to spend your 1/3 level feats on them.

Shield Specialization- +1 extra bonus to AC from a shield. It's a nice ability, sure, but it's not particularly game-breaking.



WHY SO MANY FEATS? I NO HAS THESE BOOKS. In other news, this appears to be the first activate ability I've seen in the class... sort of. It'd be nice to have some sort of active contingent defensive boost, possibly to decrease the ridiculous feat density at these levels.


Unfortunately, much like archery or Two-Weapon Fighting, shield fighting has no class of its own. Instead it has feat trees. Very extensive feat trees involving plenty of taxes.

If you don't have the books, please visit the D&D Toolshop (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/), an online database that contains information on every 3.0 and 3.5 feat as well as all their sources. Each feat I've listed in this class appears on that site.



I started off wanting an exotic shield, but this thing makes me want a tower shield... so I'm thinking, with these different Shield-reliant abilities (I assume there will be a lot that rely on different kinds of shields), wouldn't it be nice to allow the Shield Master to switch shield as a swift action or something?

Quick Draw with a shield? A weapon is one thing, a shield weighs anywhere between 5 and 45 pounds. Drawing one of those puppies is the definition of "move action".



Just in case my list of bonus feats isn't long enough. :smallwink: More passives here still.


This is for customization purposes, to add options to the class. Lately I've been getting a lot of crap for not offering enough options in my classes so I figure hey, give them a few feats with no restrictions.



This sounds like an active ability to me! So far, this class seems mostly useful for a tower-shield-wielder.


Indeed! Shields actually have a ton of fun active abilities if you have the right source material. I'm just giving it away for free and changing it to be better because it's still kind of bad.



I'd just add it to all saves. Paladins get their Cha to saves at lower levels, and that class from Dungeonscape gets Int to initiative at a much lower level, so adding a Shield Bonus to all saves is probably OK. Also, I don't think you fail saves on a natural one. I'm pretty sure that's just attacks.


Incorrect


Automatic Failures and Successes

A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on a saving throw is always a failure (and may cause damage to exposed items; see Items Surviving after a Saving Throw). A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a success.



The shield bonus to AC is much easier to pump up than an ability score modifier. (Every +1 you give to your shield is +1 you get to your saves, versus every +2 you give to a stat is +1 to your saves). A +5/+5 defending tower shield with Shield Specialization gives you a total of +15 to your AC. Since it's easier to pump, I figured it'd be more balanced to limit it to one saving throw.



I see no reason for this to be shield knockback if the shield master can do it with any weapon. Also, +damage to a bullrush check is just asking to be the god of bullrushing. That's nice, IMO, but you're effectively guaranteeing a successful bullrush. I'm not sure if you intended that, but I certainly don't mind it.


Bull-Rushing is nice, but it's not nearly as dangerous in combat as Tripping, Disarming, or Sundering, so I don't see any reason to restrict it. And I'll change the text to make it shield-only



Another feat, can't review. :smallannoyed: From what I read, though, this seems pretty interesting. It totally doesn't make sense to throw away the thing that you've based your entire schtick around, but I can see some sort of use.


See above. The feat can be made easily viable with the returning weapon enhancement if you like. Plus, you know, sometimes you gotta hit a flyer when you can't fly.



This is late late late. I wanted this back at fifth level.


People prestige out at 5th level. I don't reward people who leave my classes. I reward people who stick with them to the end.



This is nice. With him seeming like a tank/defender/support sort of theme, it would be nice to allow him to send his spell effect to an ally for one turn. The extra benefit wouldn't be too much, especially since casters got this spell 5 levels ago and can use it on anyone.


That is not the intention of this class at all. He has not a single tank/support ability. He has no abilities to protect his allies. Also, if you read the new capstone, you can see why the benefit of the spell can't leave the shield.




You have total cover. Enemies probably don't care about hitting you and will move on to stab the team wizard... why would this be useful?


Total concealment gives you a 50% miss chance from spells.



Also, you appear to have some dead levels there. Overall, decent class, but it has a bit of an active defensive focus without tanking abilities, which is not nice for teamwork. What's the job of this class?

It's not a defender. It's a guy who beats people up with shields. And no more dead levels. The class wasn't finished yet, it is now.



Heee, I do love me a shield fighter. No idea on balance, though this does look like a fighting man I would play. I love some of the abilities, though (the Shield of Vitality abilities are all fun).

Thanks! I finished the class. Lots of new abilities. What do you think?

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-13, 01:39 AM
Here, I found you a better image:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_UNYlcZV1M-U/S_KPMTIo-eI/AAAAAAAAAIQ/na11_tMVhBc/s1600/goofy.png

All in all, this class looks amazing. I would definitely play one. On the down side, he needs more teamwork abilities, and why do I not see an ability that just raises the AC bonus he gets from a shield by any amount, say every 6th level or so? +3 to AC at level 18 isn't a huge boost, but it fits the theme.

Other questions: the tower shield is definitely the main focus of this class; most the class abilities focus on it. Other types of shield should get abilities, or give the possibility to dual-wield smaller shields to greater effect. As it is, right now I would take a tower shield to hide behind while using a buckler or small shield that had the returning property on it to soften things up at a distance, then blow everything away with the tower shield when it got close.

Other questions: what about a shield dagger (essentially a punch dagger on the front of a small shield, not sure what book it's in)?

Thanks for giving the shield some love, it needs it. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Missed the Shield Press ability. I dislike only tower shields getting the bonus; maybe large shields could get half that (+4), medium shields half that again (+2), and anything smaller getting no bonus?

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-13, 01:51 AM
Here, I found you a better image:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_UNYlcZV1M-U/S_KPMTIo-eI/AAAAAAAAAIQ/na11_tMVhBc/s1600/goofy.png

All in all, this class looks amazing. I would definitely play one. On the down side, he needs more teamwork abilities, and why do I not see an ability that just raises the AC bonus he gets from a shield by any amount, say every 6th level or so? +3 to AC at level 18 isn't a huge boost, but it fits the theme.


The class gets a +2 shield bonus to AC (+1 from Shield Specialization, +1 from Weapon Supremacy) by level 18. Not as high as you wanted, but it's there.

As for teamwork abilities, I'm not interested in adding those into the class. I refuse to contribute to the stigma that shield bearers have of being knights and paladins who prostrate themselves and sacrifice for their allies. This class isn't a defender, it's a striker.



Other questions: the tower shield is definitely the main focus of this class; most the class abilities focus on it. Other types of shield should get abilities, or give the possibility to dual-wield smaller shields to greater effect. As it is, right now I would take a tower shield to hide behind while using a buckler or small shield that had the returning property on it to soften things up at a distance, then blow everything away with the tower shield when it got close.


The class is still in progress. I don't plan to give the buckler any love, unfortunately, but dual-wielding light and heavy shields was a plan. I'm going to have to look at each exotic shield before I decide if it's worth it to draw a separate ability up for each of them.



Other questions: what about a shield dagger (essentially a punch dagger on the front of a small shield, not sure what book it's in)?


I would have to look at it myself, so I would need to know the source, but honestly, probably not. In my opinion, the shield focus of this class adds to its cool factor. It's a personal preference, no offense. :smallsmile:



Thanks for giving the shield some love, it needs it. :smallbiggrin:

I more than agree! If you like, take a look at my mount class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201509), my two-weapon fighting class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215659), my unarmed combat class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204494), or my evoker class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208967).

(I just need to make an archer and I'll have made a fix for every sub-optimal fighting style in 3.5!)

Edit:


Missed Shield Press- Awesome suggestions

Sounds good! I'll go fix that right now.

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-13, 02:13 AM
I saw your fix for two-weapon fighting; it made me cry tears of joy. The Elementalist made me squee. With just these two classes and the shield guy here, you have written the downfall of all my players. I am very excited to see what you come up with for your archery class, as archery is a personal favorite for me (to the point where I rewrote the Soulknife class as the Psi Hunter, replacing the sword with a bow).

I found what I was thinking of, it's the Stiletto Shield from the book Arms & Equipment Guide (a mightyfine resource to mess with players) and the Buckler Blade from the Bastion Press book Arms & Armor. Personally, I think the option to deal slashing damage with a shield is sweet, but that's just me.

Keep up the good work. :smallsmile:

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-13, 02:25 AM
I saw your fix for two-weapon fighting; it made me cry tears of joy. The Elementalist made me squee. With just these two classes and the shield guy here, you have written the downfall of all my players. I am very excited to see what you come up with for your archery class, as archery is a personal favorite for me (to the point where I rewrote the Soulknife class as the Psi Hunter, replacing the sword with a bow).

I found what I was thinking of, it's the Stiletto Shield from the book Arms & Equipment Guide (a mightyfine resource to mess with players) and the Buckler Blade from the Bastion Press book Arms & Armor. Personally, I think the option to deal slashing damage with a shield is sweet, but that's just me.

Keep up the good work. :smallsmile:

Ah, well thank you very much for your compliment! I will put a lot of work into my archery class, just for that!

Unfortunately, I will have to decline your Stiletto Shield suggestion. I don't have the Arms and Equipment Guide or Arms and Armor.

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-13, 02:40 AM
I propose the following:

Feat: Shield Slash
Prerequisites: Str 15, Improved Shield Bash, Shield of Vitality class feature
Benefits: You may chose to reduce your attack roll by -1 for one round. All damage done by your shield bash (or bashes) during that round is slashing damage.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-13, 02:47 AM
I propose the following:

Feat: Shield Slash
Prerequisites: Str 15, Improved Shield Bash, Shield of Vitality class feature
Benefits: You may chose to reduce your attack roll by -1 for one round. All damage done by your shield bash (or bashes) during that round is slashing damage.

Well, with the Versatile Unarmed Strike feat, I don't think that a -1 penalty to attack rolls is necessary, but I don't know how many people would take this feat, as the primary reason for gaining slashing damage is to ignore DR/Slashing, which the capstone ability allows you to do anyway.

Still, I DO grant a lot of feats in this class...okay I'll add your suggestion to the OP.

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-13, 03:44 AM
I don't actually know the Versatile Unarmed Strike feat, but I'm running a Monk in a buddy's campaign right now, so if you could tell me where it is it's be awesome. You say it does the same to unarmed strikes at no penalty?

I like your tweaks to the feat. Wonderful class, and I have some dwarf NPCs to use it on in my group.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-13, 03:50 AM
I don't actually know the Versatile Unarmed Strike feat, but I'm running a Monk in a buddy's campaign right now, so if you could tell me where it is it's be awesome. You say it does the same to unarmed strikes at no penalty?

I like your tweaks to the feat. Wonderful class, and I have some dwarf NPCs to use it on in my group.




Versatile Unarmed Strike
You employ a variety of unarmed fighting styles, allowing you to alter the type of damage your attacks deal.

Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike

Benefit: As a swift action, you can opt for your unarmed strikes to deal your choice of bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage. Once you make this choice, your unarmed strikes continue to deal the chosen damage type until you use another swift action to change it.

Special: A fighter can select Versatile Unarmed Strike as one of his fighter bonus feats.


It's in the Player's Handbook II. Enjoy!

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-15, 03:33 PM
Does anyone else have any comments or suggestions on the finished product?

Spiryt
2011-10-15, 03:44 PM
Why does every shield class or whatever need some ability to throw a shield?

It's not really practical as far as playing goes, and seems just silly like hell.

That would be my main complain, along with rather..... Too wonky.

Aside from that seems pretty interesting.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-15, 03:49 PM
Why does every shield class or whatever need some ability to throw a shield?

It's not really practical as far as playing goes, and seems just silly like hell.

That would be my main complain, along with rather..... Too wonky.

Aside from that seems pretty interesting.

http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l576/andreachavez5/captain-america-wallpaper-pack-i-700x320.jpg

This is why.

Edit: Found a better image

Thiyr
2011-10-15, 03:58 PM
I admit, part of what I think of when I think shield fighters is based on the style of this guy

http://images.wikia.com/thevandelbuster/images/8/86/Cruss.gif

That pretty much boiled down to "Shields are primarily used to protect ones allies and ones self. Its use as a weapon should be as a last resort." Unspoken, if used as a weapon, the shield hurts like all hell.

With that in mind, I wouldn't mind seeing something to let you block attacks that would hit your allies, though otherwise I like. (Perhaps roll it into a feat for defensive strike to force the enemy that you hit to attack you its next round or something)


Personally I'd put a restriction of some sort on the bonus feats, but that's admittedly personal taste.

I'd also love to see some support for wielding two shields. Allowing both shields to AC and giving agile shield fighter would be quite nifty, and would mean not-tower-shields would get some support as well (as what else will you do with your other hand?)

One nitpick

Greater Defensive Strike. As written, it can be interpreted to let the user make a full attack without -any- penalties to attack. This is, obviously, not good. Better to word it like "remove the penalty from defensive strike, and all you to make a full attack".

Spiryt
2011-10-15, 04:00 PM
This is why.

Edit: Found a better image

Well, I guess that as non American and not comics fan, I can just scratch it... :smallwink:

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-15, 04:09 PM
I admit, part of what I think of when I think shield fighters is based on the style of this guy

http://images.wikia.com/thevandelbuster/images/8/86/Cruss.gif

That pretty much boiled down to "Shields are primarily used to protect ones allies and ones self. Its use as a weapon should be as a last resort." Unspoken, if used as a weapon, the shield hurts like all hell.

With that in mind, I wouldn't mind seeing something to let you block attacks that would hit your allies, though otherwise I like. (Perhaps roll it into a feat for defensive strike to force the enemy that you hit to attack you its next round or something)


This is exactly what I am trying to debunk, actually. This mental image that is associated with a shield fighter as a brave and valiant self-sacrificing warrior. I wanted to see a guy who used shields as a weapon instead of as a way to protect anything.

Edit: Also, the annoying idea from both 4.E and MMOs that shield-wearers draw aggro and protect allies, but deal crap for damage.



Personally I'd put a restriction of some sort on the bonus feats, but that's admittedly personal taste.


What kind of restriction?



I'd also love to see some support for wielding two shields. Allowing both shields to AC and giving agile shield fighter would be quite nifty, and would mean not-tower-shields would get some support as well (as what else will you do with your other hand?)


Thanks for reminding me. I thought I edited before I posted, but I didn't. Added Two Shields as One and Greater Two Shields as One.



One nitpick

Greater Defensive Strike. As written, it can be interpreted to let the user make a full attack without -any- penalties to attack. This is, obviously, not good. Better to word it like "remove the penalty from defensive strike, and all you to make a full attack".

Fixed, thank you.


Well, I guess that as non American and not comics fan, I can just scratch it... :smallwink:

If you like, just think of it as a way to compensate for the lack of getting longbow proficiency.

Thiyr
2011-10-16, 02:07 AM
This is exactly what I am trying to debunk, actually. This mental image that is associated with a shield fighter as a brave and valiant self-sacrificing warrior. I wanted to see a guy who used shields as a weapon instead of as a way to protect anything.

Edit: Also, the annoying idea from both 4.E and MMOs that shield-wearers draw aggro and protect allies, but deal crap for damage.

Thing is, there's a reason that mental image is there: shields are primarily defensive. It's kinda their entire thing. I mean, you can shove spikes on it or hit people with it, but you can do the same thing with a bench, or a suit of armor, or a piece of velcro. I mean, at that point, why even protect yourself with said shield? Even if the defense is by superior offense, though, the shield fighter is defensive because he uses a shield. It -shouldn't- be better than using a dedicated weapon for doing damage, unless it has been modified to -be- a weapon (at which point it's no longer purely a shield. Probably something like, say, the buckler axe. It's really the case of sacrificing one thing for another.) And not all shield fighters, even defensive ones, are necessarily valiant, heroic, or self-sacrificing. Great for formations/teamwork in general, even if you're no more self-sacrificing or bold than the next guy. (I'm reminded of the various spartan episodes of deadliest warrior, and am now brewing up an iteration of the cowardly bookworm fighter in my head again) Heck, I recently -did- a shield-fighter who was in no way defensive. He was utterly reckless, hit like a truck, and normally was on the dying end of the HP spectrum. But that's one of those iconic shield *things*. Hence why I said a feat. Not everyone does it, but those that do it need the basics of shield-ing. Still, w/e, doesn't matter that much, not too hard to toss together (and probably not hard to toss together. will save DC 10 + Str Mod + shield's bonus to AC or attack only the guy that just beat the crap out of you for 1 round).

edit: And why can't someone two weapon fight with, say, a buckler? I'd almost think that'd make the most sense as the offhand unless they have oversized 2 weapon fighting, as it would actually give the buckler a -reason- to be used as a weapon.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-16, 02:17 AM
Thing is, there's a reason that mental image is there: shields are primarily defensive. It's kinda their entire thing. I mean, you can shove spikes on it or hit people with it, but you can do the same thing with a bench, or a suit of armor, or a piece of velcro. I mean, at that point, why even protect yourself with said shield? Even if the defense is by superior offense, though, the shield fighter is defensive because he uses a shield. It -shouldn't- be better than using a dedicated weapon for doing damage, unless it has been modified to -be- a weapon (at which point it's no longer purely a shield. Probably something like, say, the buckler axe. It's really the case of sacrificing one thing for another.) And not all shield fighters, even defensive ones, are necessarily valiant, heroic, or self-sacrificing. Great for formations/teamwork in general, even if you're no more self-sacrificing or bold than the next guy. (I'm reminded of the various spartan episodes of deadliest warrior, and am now brewing up an iteration of the cowardly bookworm fighter in my head again) Heck, I recently -did- a shield-fighter who was in no way defensive. He was utterly reckless, hit like a truck, and normally was on the dying end of the HP spectrum. But that's one of those iconic shield *things*. Hence why I said a feat. Not everyone does it, but those that do it need the basics of shield-ing. Still, w/e, doesn't matter that much, not too hard to toss together (and probably not hard to toss together. will save DC 10 + Str Mod + shield's bonus to AC or attack only the guy that just beat the crap out of you for 1 round).


I see no reason to make yet another shield fighter tank. I've seen plenty on GitP already. I thought I was doing something different, though I'm pleased to hear another person had the same thought I did.

Making a shield fighter who was defensive, who kept himself alive, and who protected his allies would be pointless, as everything he did, the crusader already does, but better. Plus, defensive styles aren't really my thing. If I tried to make some kind of defensive, protection, whatever class, I'd probably not only die a little inside, I wouldn't do it well.



edit: And why can't someone two weapon fight with, say, a buckler? I'd almost think that'd make the most sense as the offhand unless they have oversized 2 weapon fighting, as it would actually give the buckler a -reason- to be used as a weapon.

Fair enough. I'll add that in

Elfstone
2011-10-16, 11:47 AM
No spell reflection? It would be awesome if he could make an attack roll VS a ranged touch attack or area spell and deflect or reflect the spell back on its caster.

Just a suggestion.

I love it as is however.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-16, 11:59 AM
No spell reflection? It would be awesome if he could make an attack roll VS a ranged touch attack or area spell and deflect or reflect the spell back on its caster.

Just a suggestion.

I love it as is however.

I dunno how I would phrase that. If you can write up the ability word for word, I'll copy and paste it into the OP. :smallsmile:

Yitzi
2011-10-16, 12:32 PM
He should get sizable DR well before level 20.

Don't be afraid to make him next to invulnerable when using a shield; so long as his shield can be sundered or disarmed, he's not unbeatable. (You might want to fix Sunder, though.)

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-16, 12:38 PM
He should get sizable DR well before level 20.


Unfortunately the Armor as Damage Reduction variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm) states pretty clearly that the way characters use shields is purely for AC, not for DR, which is why I had to use a divine source to give it to him.



Don't be afraid to make him next to invulnerable when using a shield; so long as his shield can be sundered or disarmed, he's not unbeatable. (You might want to fix Sunder, though.)

By that logic, WotC gave the wizard all-powerful spells, reasoning that as long as the spellbook could be stolen or sundered, they would still be beatable. How often do you see that happening at the table?

I can't in all good conscience balance power against the idea that the DM is willing to strip a weapon from a fighter. It just hasn't happened that often at my table and I don't want to force the DM to have to make that decision. Players hate it when their gear is destroyed or stolen.

Elfstone
2011-10-16, 01:37 PM
Would you like me to post what I have here or send it via PM?

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-16, 01:45 PM
Would you like me to post what I have here or send it via PM?

Just post it here. I'll copy pasta.

Elfstone
2011-10-16, 01:49 PM
Well, im not quite finished, but this is what I have so far.

Spell Deflection (Su) At _ level when a Shield Master is the subject of a ranged touch attack spell, he can make a melee attack at his highest BAB as a immediate action against the casters opposing attack x times per encounter. The Shield Masters attack roll becomes his new AC. If the caster misses, the spell does not effect the Shield Master and is deflected off his shield.

Im trying to figure out how to say where the spell went. And I am wondering if I should include some complicated randomized system using a d100 and d20s to decided where(which square) the spell goes.... There are multiple options, but do you think it is necessary?

The next abilities would either increase the number of times he can preform this action (changing X) or improve immediate to free...

The improved version would allow the Shield master to y times per day, reflect the spell on its caster, and having him make a ranged touch attack vs the spellcaster's AC..

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-16, 01:55 PM
Well, im not quite finished, but this is what I have so far.

Spell Deflection (Su) At _ level when a Shield Master is the subject of a ranged touch attack spell, he can make a melee attack at his highest BAB as a immediate action against the casters opposing attack x times per encounter. The Shield Masters attack roll becomes his new AC. If the caster misses, the spell does not effect the Shield Master and is deflected off his shield.

Im trying to figure out how to say where the spell went. And I am wondering if I should include some complicated randomized system using a d100 and d20s to decided where(which square) the spell goes.... There are multiple options, but do you think it is necessary?

The next abilities would either increase the number of times he can preform this action (changing X) or improve immediate to free...

The improved version would allow the Shield master to y times per day, reflect the spell on its caster, and having him make a ranged touch attack vs the spellcaster's AC..

That all sounds interesting. You could use the spell turning feat as a basis.

Elfstone
2011-10-16, 02:07 PM
That all sounds interesting. You could use the spell turning feat as a basis.

Source? I only know of the Spell "Spell turning"

Also, no opinion on the random system to determine when the spell is deflected to?

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-16, 02:18 PM
Source? I only know of the Spell "Spell turning"

Also, no opinion on the random system to determine when the spell is deflected to?

Ack, why did I say "feat"? I meant "spell". XD

Wow, spell turning as a feat. That would solve some of melee's issues, huh? (Not many, but some)

As for the random direction, I would say that the spell should end up two squares away from the shield master, just roll a dX where X is the number of squares that are two squares away from him.

Elfstone
2011-10-16, 02:28 PM
I didn't want the spell to harm allies, so I was going to add that the master could shift the square away from his allies by taking a penalty of some kind. Or is that to OP?

Otherwise, that makes sense. Less complicated than I was thinking.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-16, 02:45 PM
I didn't want the spell to harm allies, so I was going to add that the master could shift the square away from his allies by taking a penalty of some kind. Or is that to OP?

Otherwise, that makes sense. Less complicated than I was thinking.

Sure, take a -4 penalty to the attack roll and ensure it doesn't hit allies.

Elfstone
2011-10-16, 04:35 PM
Here is what I have.


Spell Deflection (Su) At 8 level when a Shield Master is the subject of a ranged touch attack spell, he can make a melee attack at his highest BAB as a immediate action against the casters opposing attack X times per encounter, where X is his Class level/4. The Shield Masters attack roll becomes his new AC. If the caster misses, the spell does not effect the Shield Master and is deflected off his shield to a square two squares away. To determine which square, roll a d20. If the result is over 16, the spell dissipated. Otherwise, the spell hits the square corresponding to the number rolled. The numbers start directly north of the PC and ascend in a clockwise order. By taking a -4 penalty to the attack the Shield Master can ensure that the spell does not hit an ally. If the spell does when deflected, it instead dissipated.

Spell Reflection (Su) at 15th level the Shield Master can reflect spells upon their caster, instead of deflecting them y times per day, where y is Class level/5. If the Shield master successfully deflects a spell he can instead choose to reflect it by making a ranged touch attack against the caster.

A bit wordy, but it should work. Let me know if I have left anything out.

I also thought about this.
Shield Bastion of Spells (Su) When the Shield master is the subject of a spell that is a damaging, ranged area attack he may raise his shield and resist some the effects of the spell. This ability functions like Evasion in all other aspects.

Not sure how well balanced/flavorful it is.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-16, 04:44 PM
Added the listed abilities at the listed levels. Thank you for your suggestion.

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-16, 07:40 PM
Complete Warrior, page 66, PrC Occult Slayer, class ability Mind Over Magic: "Starting at 2nd level, an Occult Slayer can cause a spell or spell-like ability targeted against her to rebound onto the originator as a free action. This ability otherwise functions as the spell turning spell (caster level equals the character's Occult Slayer level + 5). An Occult Slayer can use this ability once per day at 2nd level and twice per day at 4th level."

Also, you should give the class Improved Buckler Defense (a feat from Complete Warrior, page 100) early on; it's not incredibly useful in the long run, but it does give a little more support to bucklers.

YouLostMe
2011-10-16, 08:10 PM
Maybe someone has suggested this before, but with all of the different shield abilities relying on different feats and things, perhaps a skill tree would be in order?

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-16, 08:31 PM
Maybe someone has suggested this before, but with all of the different shield abilities relying on different feats and things, perhaps a skill tree would be in order?

A skill tree? What did you have in mind?

And why would I give Improved Buckler Defense? The class is incapable of wielding weapons other than shields. If you're wielding a buckler as a weapon, you don't lose its bonus to AC because you have Improved Shield Bash. If you're dual-wielding heavy shields, you don't gain a bonus to your AC from any bucklers anyway.

Kenneth
2011-10-16, 09:34 PM
I enjoy the cool conpet of this class but, I have to admit that it confuses the heck out of me. I thought at first ' oh cool a way to mae a weapon+sheidl user worthwhile' but then i read teh abilities and to me at leats its like a paladin whos diety is his sheild or a Diety of Shields? so for me it has this uncomfrtable attachment to divine from a mostly pureley martial skeleton,

i think with that for me atleast it fits better as a 10-level prestige class. meant for more defnsive minded paladins. or melee/cleric hybrids?


It is probably my own preferences here saying the above, so I apologize for that.

you have soem pretty cool idea neo seraphi :)

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-16, 09:46 PM
I enjoy the cool conpet of this class but, I have to admit that it confuses the heck out of me. I thought at first ' oh cool a way to mae a weapon+sheidl user worthwhile' but then i read teh abilities and to me at leats its like a paladin whos diety is his sheild or a Diety of Shields? so for me it has this uncomfrtable attachment to divine from a mostly pureley martial skeleton,


It's a warrior whose life is being interfered with without his knowledge or will by a god who channels divine power through the warrior's shield.

Unlike a cleric or a paladin, this class has no religious overtones. The god literally is just bored, he doesn't require any worshipping.



i think with that for me atleast it fits better as a 10-level prestige class. meant for more defnsive minded paladins. or melee/cleric hybrids?


The problem with that is that clerics and paladins draw divine power from other gods, and while Aegis would gladly interfere in random warrior's lives, he's not going to cross another god's territory. Plus, condensing all these class features into a 10 level class would A) be very difficult and B) it wouldn't fix shield-based fighting from level 1, which was the original goal of the class, fluff be damned. (The fluff came later)



It is probably my own preferences here saying the above, so I apologize for that.

you have soem pretty cool idea neo seraphi :)

No, it's no problem, and thanks for the compliment, but as the divine aspect of the class is so small, you could easily just remove the Shield of Vitality abilities (and have a few dead levels in the class) and change Divine Aegis to something more mundane, and you'd have a class that makes more sense fluff-wise (that way you don't have to make it a prestige class or limit it to divine casters, who wouldn't take the class anyway because of lost caster levels)

Kenneth
2011-10-16, 10:42 PM
:) K I'll take it like that. it a nice thing, though Ihave to admit it saddens me that people have to homebrew thinsg that should have been included in core. I mean. aren';t such figures liek Legolas and his mastery of the Bow, SIr galahad and his super Paladinness like perfect examples of iconinc roles in fantasy?

dang WOtC had to mess that up IMO...


anywyas, please take a look at tell me your thoughts on my Battle Mage (warmage re-tooling) heres teh Link
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219065

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-16, 10:51 PM
If you don't like the divine-ness, it would be fairly easy to rewrite as innate channeled power. Or if you really like the divine-ness, it would be just as easy to make the power come from the deity of your choice.

As for where my suggestion came from about bucklers, it was about the two weapon shield thing; I don't see where any of the feats granted let you keep your AC on your shield when you attack with it, but maybe I just missed it. Certainly wouldn't be the first time, and I doubt it will be the last.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-16, 11:07 PM
If you don't like the divine-ness, it would be fairly easy to rewrite as innate channeled power. Or if you really like the divine-ness, it would be just as easy to make the power come from the deity of your choice.

As for where my suggestion came from about bucklers, it was about the two weapon shield thing; I don't see where any of the feats granted let you keep your AC on your shield when you attack with it, but maybe I just missed it. Certainly wouldn't be the first time, and I doubt it will be the last.

Er...it's the very first one.

Improved Shield Bash (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-1552-improved-shield-bash.html)

ThiefInTheNight
2011-10-16, 11:24 PM
May I ask what the intended balance point of this class was?

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-16, 11:52 PM
May I ask what the intended balance point of this class was?

Hm? I don't remember having one. I guess I was aiming for Tier 4, using JaronK's tier system, or "Can do one thing pretty well, but is pretty much useless when that one thing would be inappropriate"

ThiefInTheNight
2011-10-17, 12:22 AM
Hmm... then I think you probably hit it, though probably towards the lower (i.e. nearer Tier 5) end of the spectrum. I mean, it's got a lot of features, but most are kinda meh feats and there's a lot of basic passive stuff in there.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-17, 12:26 AM
Hmm... then I think you probably hit it, though probably towards the lower (i.e. nearer Tier 5) end of the spectrum. I mean, it's got a lot of features, but most are kinda meh feats and there's a lot of basic passive stuff in there.

Well that's good then.

Kenneth
2011-10-17, 01:08 AM
You know what.. I coudl give it some of those shield counter maneuvers from the ToB, still focuses on 1 thing (using your hseidl) but they woudl allow himt o do some new stuff without taking him into 'tier' 3 area. i think moving him up to mid tier 4 IMO.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-17, 01:13 AM
You know what.. I coudl give it some of those shield counter maneuvers from the ToB, still focuses on 1 thing (using your hseidl) but they woudl allow himt o do some new stuff without taking him into 'tier' 3 area. i think moving him up to mid tier 4 IMO.

There are indeed two very nice shield counter maneuvers from the Devoted Spirit Discipline that would help stabilize his position in the center of Tier 4. I chose not to include them because they involved protecting allies and yourself, but it would be a simple task to simply grant those instead of the Shield of Vitality abilities.

Yitzi
2011-10-17, 07:00 PM
Unfortunately the Armor as Damage Reduction variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm) states pretty clearly that the way characters use shields is purely for AC, not for DR, which is why I had to use a divine source to give it to him.

There's no rule that every homebrew class has to match with every variant.


By that logic, WotC gave the wizard all-powerful spells, reasoning that as long as the spellbook could be stolen or sundered, they would still be beatable.

1. A wizard who's lost his spellbook still has his spells that he memorized this morning. A fighter-type who's lost his shield has no shield.

2. A spellbook doesn't have to be placed in a sunderable/disarmable position in order to be effective. A shield does.

3. Spells are offensively as well as defensively powerful, so the existence of a way to remove them isn't such a good balancer (plus, they can help protect the spellbook.) What I suggested is only giving the shield master high defensive bonuses, and nothing that will make it impossible to deprive him of his shield.


Players hate it when their gear is destroyed or stolen.

That's why I said it would be necessary to fix the sunder rules, so it can be disabled without being destroyed. (Stolen is not a concern, as disarming generally happens in combat, and if you win the combat you get the item back.)

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-17, 07:09 PM
There's no rule that every homebrew class has to match with every variant.


Yeah, but I agree with this particular variant. If you're using a shield, it either blocks the attack, or it doesn't. It can't soften the blow for you like armor can.



1. A wizard who's lost his spellbook still has his spells that he memorized this morning. A fighter-type who's lost his shield has no shield.

2. A spellbook doesn't have to be placed in a sunderable/disarmable position in order to be effective. A shield does.

3. Spells are offensively as well as defensively powerful, so the existence of a way to remove them isn't such a good balancer (plus, they can help protect the spellbook.) What I suggested is only giving the shield master high defensive bonuses, and nothing that will make it impossible to deprive him of his shield.


That is all true. But...



That's why I said it would be necessary to fix the sunder rules, so it can be disabled without being destroyed. (Stolen is not a concern, as disarming generally happens in combat, and if you win the combat you get the item back.)

Right there. See, I make my classes based on experience, and my experience is "The DM is not a jerk". Sundering is not something that ever happens at my table, even when it became very, very necessary. (A player was using his Item Familiar longbow to optimize his Spellcraft for Persistent Incantatrix cheese and the DM still wouldn't take his bow away)

If a player is playing at a table where his gear is getting Sundered, he needs to stock extra gear. There is no reason for this class to grant bonuses against Sundering (The Aegis does not possess a specific shield, he only channels his energy through the shield that the shield master is currently holding, and only to empower the shield master himself)

Yitzi
2011-10-17, 07:35 PM
Yeah, but I agree with this particular variant. If you're using a shield, it either blocks the attack, or it doesn't. It can't soften the blow for you like armor can.

I wasn't so much thinking "soften" as "deflect into a less sensitive spot". Not something that everyone can do, but a Shield Master...


Right there. See, I make my classes based on experience, and my experience is "The DM is not a jerk". Sundering is not something that ever happens at my table, even when it became very, very necessary. (A player was using his Item Familiar longbow to optimize his Spellcraft for Persistent Incantatrix cheese and the DM still wouldn't take his bow away)

That's because Sundering is so extreme because it permanently destroys an item. I expect that in Pathfinder (where it does not work that way, and is an example of the sort of "fix" I was talking about) sundering happens quite a bit more frequently.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-17, 07:41 PM
I wasn't so much thinking "soften" as "deflect into a less sensitive spot". Not something that everyone can do, but a Shield Master...


Well, alright. What do you suggest for a DR progression then?



That's because Sundering is so extreme because it permanently destroys an item. I expect that in Pathfinder (where it does not work that way, and is an example of the sort of "fix" I was talking about) sundering happens quite a bit more frequently.

Well, my game is 3.5, this class is 3.5, Sunder doesn't happen in 3.5.

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-17, 07:58 PM
Well, my game is 3.5, this class is 3.5, Sunder doesn't happen in 3.5.

Am I the only GM to ever use Sunder on my players? :smallfrown:

Elfstone
2011-10-17, 08:02 PM
Am I the only GM to ever use Sunder on my players? :smallfrown:

Yes.

In all honesty, the sunder rules are broken. I don't ever use them. Even as a player. Why would ANYONE want to brea a perfectly good magic item? Now it's worthless and DnD is all about the loot. Thats why you slew the dragon and rescued the princess right?

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-17, 08:05 PM
Sunder a player's mundane sword, or an archer's quiver. But if you're going to go after something that the entire class is based around, whether it's a holy symbol or a weapon or a shield that is the basis for all your power, you're just going to upset your players and screw up their WBL.

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-17, 08:50 PM
Is it actually possible to go a whole extended campaign without deviating from WBL any? Cuz I've never seen it happen.

Anyways, Sunder works fine; this is why spells like Mending and Repair exist, is to fix broken objects. Unless Sunder is supposed to remove all magic from an item upon breaking? Easy fix there is to make a new spell that repairs the enchantment as well. Problem solved, and it only took one spell slot. I honestly don't see why Sunder is so disliked, other than the fact that it's an inconvenience. I mean, disarm is just as annoying; a Rogue can steal a Cleric's holy symbol just as easily as a trained Fighter can smash it.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-17, 08:55 PM
Is it actually possible to go a whole extended campaign without deviating from WBL any? Cuz I've never seen it happen.

Anyways, Sunder works fine; this is why spells like Mending and Repair exist, is to fix broken objects. Unless Sunder is supposed to remove all magic from an item upon breaking? Easy fix there is to make a new spell that repairs the enchantment as well. Problem solved, and it only took one spell slot. I honestly don't see why Sunder is so disliked, other than the fact that it's an inconvenience. I mean, disarm is just as annoying; a Rogue can steal a Cleric's holy symbol just as easily as a trained Fighter can smash it.

And what happens if you are in a group without a person who can cast mending or repair? Not every group has a caster, not every campaign has magic period.

Your solution is probably "Hire someone to cast it". That would require the entire group turning around and heading back to nearest city, interrupting whatever quest they were on, and the whole way back, the fighter or shield master is useless in combat. It's kind of like when Izumi lost her Human Spirit in Digimon Frontier for like ten episodes, only with much less chance for character development and all the annoyance of sitting on the sidelines playing cheerleader/damsel in distress.

And now you're probably thinking "Well okay, in that situation the DM certainly wouldn't bother Sundering". And I stop you there. If you can ever think of a situation where a mechanic would just ruin the entire game for everyone, especially one player in particular, you as a DM shouldn't employ that tactic.

Yitzi
2011-10-17, 09:13 PM
Well, alright. What do you suggest for a DR progression then?

I'd say allow him to turn points of shield AC into DR at a 2-for-1 rate (or 3-for-1 if you're looking for a powerful class), up to a maximum DR equal to his class level. Maybe make it not work when he loses his DEX bonus to AC, so as to give another way to get around it.


Well, my game is 3.5, this class is 3.5, Sunder doesn't happen in 3.5.

3.5 doesn't have a class known as the Shield Master. Whenever you homebrew, you are implicitly changing the rules to some extent.


And what happens if you are in a group without a person who can cast mending or repair? Not every group has a caster, not every campaign has magic period.

In a magicless campaign, that is more of an issue, but even so, it can be made into a new use for the Craft skill.


Your solution is probably "Hire someone to cast it". That would require the entire group turning around and heading back to nearest city, interrupting whatever quest they were on, and the whole way back, the fighter or shield master is useless in combat.

No; he can easily have a backup. It wouldn't be enchanted, so it's not something he'd want to use long-term, but just until he gets a chance to fix his main one it could be ok.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-17, 09:36 PM
I'd say allow him to turn points of shield AC into DR at a 2-for-1 rate (or 3-for-1 if you're looking for a powerful class), up to a maximum DR equal to his class level. Maybe make it not work when he loses his DEX bonus to AC, so as to give another way to get around it.
okay




No; he can easily have a backup. It wouldn't be enchanted, so it's not something he'd want to use long-term, but just until he gets a chance to fix his main one it could be ok.

Right. And that was my original argument for not including an immunity to Sunder. Either your DM doesn't use Sunder, or if he does, you should change your playstyle to be prepared for it, instead of relying on your class to protect you.

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-17, 09:37 PM
And now you're probably thinking "Well okay, in that situation the DM certainly wouldn't bother Sundering". And I stop you there. If you can ever think of a situation where a mechanic would just ruin the entire game for everyone, especially one player in particular, you as a DM shouldn't employ that tactic.

This logic would keep me from allowing Wizards, Clerics, liches, the Tarrasque, and PC deaths in my games, just to name a few off the top of my head.

Seriously, if your Fighter doesn't have a backup blade in case of emergency breakage and the Cleric has no backup holy symbol in case of daring Rogues with high ranks in Slight of Hand, that's the player's own fault, and by extension the GM's fault for not poking him about it (or at least for making a hidden check to see if his character thought he might need one (a simple Int check)). Besides, if the battle is so heated his weapon is Sundered and he has no backup, PC death is fairly unavoidable unless you took Improved Unarmed Strike.

The only time Sunder is unforgivable is if you didn't let your players know it was a possibility before hand. If you told them it could happen and they didn't prepare, their character's death and/or damsel-in-distress state is their own fault. All my players know that their weapons can be sundered (and no, I won't stop making sunder attempts just because I broke the first weapon or you have no Mending prepared for the day); combat is there to kill either the PCs or the NPC monsters, and dirty tactics like weapon breaking is perfectly acceptable on both sides.

Of course, this is also coming from someone who generally only throws a set of baddies at the PCs once every day or two at most (my campaigns are very heavy on the RP side of things, usually at the player's request), so a broken sword is far less of a problem than it would be if you had 3 fights a day.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-17, 09:41 PM
This logic would keep me from allowing Wizards, Clerics, liches, the Tarrasque, and PC deaths in my games, just to name a few off the top of my head.

Seriously, if your Fighter doesn't have a backup blade in case of emergency breakage and the Cleric has no backup holy symbol in case of daring Rogues with high ranks in Slight of Hand, that's the player's own fault, and by extension the GM's fault for not poking him about it (or at least for making a hidden check to see if his character thought he might need one (a simple Int check)). Besides, if the battle is so heated his weapon is Sundered and he has no backup, PC death is fairly unavoidable unless you took Improved Unarmed Strike.


The only time Sunder is unforgivable is if you didn't let your players know it was a possibility before hand. If you told them it could happen and they didn't prepare, their character's death and/or damsel-in-distress state is their own fault. All my players know that their weapons can be sundered (and no, I won't stop making sunder attempts just because I broke the first weapon or you have no Mending prepared for the day); combat is there to kill either the PCs or the NPC monsters, and dirty tactics like weapon breaking is perfectly acceptable on both sides.


Okay, fair enough. So if you tell your players that you are not going to prevent yourself from Sundering, that's good. They can prepare. I was talking about simply Sundering a weapon because it was a good opportunity, or to mix it up for a player or challenge him.



Of course, this is also coming from someone who generally only throws a set of baddies at the PCs once every day or two at most (my campaigns are very heavy on the RP side of things, usually at the player's request), so a broken sword is far less of a problem than it would be if you had 3 fights a day.

Right, and in my games, we have 6 or 7 encounters per day, so Sunder is a huge deal.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-17, 09:52 PM
Edited Perfect Defense to give Yitzi's suggestion.

Dr.Orpheus
2011-10-17, 11:09 PM
Now what if you gained the ability to shield your allies giving an adjasent ally your shield bonus. This is more of a suporting ability and the shield master does not have many suporting abilitys, this might improve at later levels so that the shield master can give this bonus to all adjasent allies, or retain it so he does not become a target.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-17, 11:10 PM
Now what if you gained the ability to shield your allies giving an adjasent ally your shield bonus. This is more of a suporting ability and the shield master does not have many suporting abilitys, this might improve at later levels so that the shield master can give this bonus to all adjasent allies, or retain it so he does not become a target.

I didn't want the shield master to have any supporting abilities. He's not a bard or a knight or a paladin. He's a fighter with class features who has his feat chain picked out for him.

Dr.Orpheus
2011-10-17, 11:21 PM
I didn't want the shield master to have any supporting abilities. He's not a bard or a knight or a paladin. He's a fighter with class features who has his feat chain picked out for him.

I was expecting this and so maybe it should be a varient class feature, or perhaps some feats the shield master can take on the side, but this class would be limiting if it did not allow a player to be suporting if they wanted to.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-17, 11:27 PM
I was expecting this and so maybe it should be a varient class feature, or perhaps some feats the shield master can take on the side, but this class would be limiting if it did not allow a player to be suporting if they wanted to.

I'm alright with limiting options. If a players wants to play a support role, he could play a crusader. Whatever I wrote here wouldn't be nearly as good at a shield-defender as a crusader anyway, so there's little point.

Yitzi
2011-10-18, 08:57 AM
Right. And that was my original argument for not including an immunity to Sunder. Either your DM doesn't use Sunder, or if he does, you should change your playstyle to be prepared for it, instead of relying on your class to protect you.

There shouldn't be immunity to Sunder. But if you allow him to arrange his shield to grant DR (probably with more than the usual move action so he can't replace it mid-battle), then sundering becomes a counter and the DR can be higher than it otherwise would be.

Dr.Orpheus
2011-10-18, 10:29 AM
I'm alright with limiting options. If a players wants to play a support role, he could play a crusader. Whatever I wrote here wouldn't be nearly as good at a shield-defender as a crusader anyway, so there's little point.

That sounds fine, because when you look at the big picture you could always make a crusader and call it a shield master for role-playing sake.

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-18, 09:38 PM
For those who really want a more defensive option, just make the Shield Master's first feat be Active Shield Defense (they qualify for it right off the bat). It's a pretty good feat, lets you make AoOs while using the full defense option. There are a half dozen other feats out there to give boosts to shield use that this class doesn't get (as they don't increase offense any); if you really want a defensive one, it wouldn't be that hard to make one.

Tiniere
2011-10-18, 10:25 PM
This class is amazing, in addition to the Captain America and KH Goofy references it rather makes me think of the Spartan warrior's shield, a bronze barrier more lethal than many of the edged weapons at the time. Also I thought of the Scottish Targe & Dirk, a combination of s short thrusting dagger and a small shield which often had a large spike on it as well.

A small nitpick is with Tower Defense. Since you have total cover, an enemy does not have a line of effect to you, and therefore cannot target you, (Certain spells still work though). But the ability does seem a little redundant. It's different from total concealment (the 50% miss you mentioned earlier). Though the only bit of advice I can think of is to have the displacement apply whenever using total defense with a tower shield?

On the whole though, this is fantastic, I think I'll try it out next time I get the chance to play a dwarven brawler sort of character, when I do I'll post more feedback!

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-21, 03:16 PM
This class is amazing, in addition to the Captain America and KH Goofy references it rather makes me think of the Spartan warrior's shield, a bronze barrier more lethal than many of the edged weapons at the time. Also I thought of the Scottish Targe & Dirk, a combination of s short thrusting dagger and a small shield which often had a large spike on it as well.

A small nitpick is with Tower Defense. Since you have total cover, an enemy does not have a line of effect to you, and therefore cannot target you, (Certain spells still work though). But the ability does seem a little redundant. It's different from total concealment (the 50% miss you mentioned earlier). Though the only bit of advice I can think of is to have the displacement apply whenever using total defense with a tower shield?

On the whole though, this is fantastic, I think I'll try it out next time I get the chance to play a dwarven brawler sort of character, when I do I'll post more feedback!

Okay, I made Tower Defense work when you use the Combat Expertise feat or when you take the total defense action