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View Full Version : Is there such thing as a good werewolf movie?



Mulletmanalive
2011-10-14, 02:33 PM
Well? Being able to get hold of it in the UK would be a bonus...

Eldan
2011-10-14, 02:36 PM
Good good or trashy, pop-corn good?

Mulletmanalive
2011-10-14, 02:47 PM
Either good monster movie or good horror.

Good-awful isn't on the agenda tonight...

Brother Oni
2011-10-14, 03:08 PM
An American Werewolf in London?

Brotherhood of the Wolf?

Dog Soldiers?

leafman
2011-10-14, 03:27 PM
Both versions of The Wolfman (1941 and 2010) are good if you watch them with the expectations of seeing a B movie (as opposed to a cinematic masterpiece). ♪ Lowered Expectations ♪ :smalltongue:

Mulletmanalive
2011-10-14, 03:31 PM
An American Werewolf in London?

True I suppose, forgot about thhat.


Brotherhood of the Wolf?

Good movie, not really a werewolf movie; they just say the word a lot...


Dog Soldiers?
I never got why people liked this film. Not scary, to me at least.

Both versions of The Wolfman (1941 and 2010) are good if you watch them with the expectations of seeing a B movie (as opposed to a cinematic masterpiece). ♪ Lowered Expectations ♪ :smalltongue:
I'll check out the original. Thanks. The remake was worth it just for the omnibus bit...just about...

Kindablue
2011-10-14, 03:46 PM
The first hour or so of Wolf is incredible. Just be sure to have the silver ready when it starts to transform into a bad movie.

No brains
2011-10-14, 03:50 PM
I've never seen a satisfying werewolf movie. I suppose I don't 'get' them.

Werewolves are essentially average people who turn into a completely mundane (not to mention endangered) animal and may be slightly harder to kill.

Turning into a wolf by means of being a siphonophore who replicates via viral infection is another story...:smallcool:

Giliburcio
2011-10-14, 03:50 PM
I barely remember it anymore, but I do recall enjoying The Company of Wolves (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087075/) a lot when I watched it, many years ago. It felt quite special.

It wasn't as your standard horror movie though, it was slow paced, surreal and oniric - about building up a specific mood and atmosphere, instead of bludgeoning the viewer with action scenes, fast edits and spastic camera work. Check it out if this sounds as your cup of tea.



*feels nostalgic about slow paced moody '70s and '80s movies*

TechnOkami
2011-10-14, 04:12 PM
Not necessarily a Werewolf movie, but that Van Helsing movie w/ Hugh Jackman had pretty good looking werewolves (if albeit a different take on the transformation process).

Weezer
2011-10-14, 04:41 PM
Not necessarily a Werewolf movie, but that Van Helsing movie w/ Hugh Jackman had pretty good looking werewolves (if albeit a different take on the transformation process).

But that was in no way a good movie, so disqualified for other reasons.

Brother Oni
2011-10-15, 08:03 AM
I never got why people liked this film. Not scary, to me at least.

It wasn't that scary, I agree, but if you see it as an action comedy with horror elements, rather than a horror movie with comedic elements, it may help.

Mind you, it scared the hell out of my Japanese in-laws (although they're rather easy to scare).

Bhu
2011-10-15, 06:03 PM
An American Werewolf in London
The Company of Wolves
Dog Soldiers
Ginger Snaps
The Howling (some sequels are pretty bad)
Kibakichi (not good but so wtf you must see)
Moon of the Wolf
Silver Bullet
Trick 'R Treat (only one of three subplots)
Wolf
Wolfen

these are about as close as you'll get (and some are a lil cheesy)

sadly Dog Soldiers is supposed to be getting a sequel. I'm not impressed with what I've seen so far.

Mulletmanalive
2011-10-15, 06:11 PM
But that was in no way a good movie, so disqualified for other reasons.

See, I really like it, it's just not a werewolf movie...sure it has a couple of ogres with wolf heads [who behave more like cats throughout] but like the Underworld franchise, you could reskin them as aliens in bad-dredlock-goth-pseudo-badass outfits and no noticable change occurs.

What I always regretted was that people didn't have lower standards and we'd've gotten the proposed sequal involving Spring Heeled Jack, Jack the Ripper and evil fairies...

@bhu: I'm saddened that another Dog Soldiers may come to be...with Attack the Block, you'd think Film4 would have better things to waste their money on...

Starbuck_II
2011-10-15, 06:18 PM
Well? Being able to get hold of it in the UK would be a bonus...

Teen Wolf?
Cursed (2005 movie)?

Mulletmanalive
2011-10-15, 06:21 PM
Cursed (2005 movie)?

Oh god, I remember that crock from when I worked in Indiana...so many fond memories [wipes away small tear]...

Bhu
2011-10-15, 08:20 PM
See, I really like it, it's just not a werewolf movie...sure it has a couple of ogres with wolf heads [who behave more like cats throughout] but like the Underworld franchise, you could reskin them as aliens in bad-dredlock-goth-pseudo-badass outfits and no noticable change occurs.

What I always regretted was that people didn't have lower standards and we'd've gotten the proposed sequal involving Spring Heeled Jack, Jack the Ripper and evil fairies...

@bhu: I'm saddened that another Dog Soldiers may come to be...with Attack the Block, you'd think Film4 would have better things to waste their money on...

Supposedly the sequel is in pre-production now, and takes up directly at the end of the first. There will also be a web series called Dog Soldiers: Legacy which turns out to be what i saw clips of. Thank God, if that were really the sequel I'd be upset.

Speaking of Underworld it's getting yet another sequel...Kate is back as Selene and according to wiki this is the plot:

"After being held in a coma-like state for fifteen years, vampire Selene (Kate Beckinsale) learns that she has a fourteen-year-old vampire/Lycan hybrid daughter, Eve, and when she finds her, they must stop BioCom from creating super Lycans that will kill them all."

Not sure if want...

Mr.Silver
2011-10-16, 03:51 PM
Ginger Snaps isn't bad, although it's unconventional enough that it might not quite count as a 'true' werewolf film and it probably owes at least as much to Cat People as it does The Wolfman. I mean there are werewolves in it - and the protagonists are genre-savvy enough to recognise them as such - but the whole aspect of lycanthropy is explored more in allusion to puberty (particularly in regards to the menstrual cycle) than a metaphor for the 'beast within'.

Tebryn
2011-10-16, 04:00 PM
I've never seen a satisfying werewolf movie. I suppose I don't 'get' them.

Werewolves are essentially average people who turn into a completely mundane (not to mention endangered) animal and may be slightly harder to kill.

Turning into a wolf by means of being a siphonophore who replicates via viral infection is another story...:smallcool:

A good number of wolf species...are not endangered...in the slightest. Wolves are scary things, not something a normal person would be able to fight back against if they were just as smart as themselves. They're big, nearly unkillable, smart and faster than you. They've got sharper teeth than you and know how to use them. Most can also turn int a hybrid form that can rip you to shreds even faster. I'd be scared of a real life wolf to be honest. A magical somewhat human one even more so.

Tiki Snakes
2011-10-16, 04:12 PM
I'm going to firmly second the call for Ginger Snaps and the Howling.
The fact that Ginger Snaps does infact focus on the metaphorical aspects of it, amongst other things, is one of it's real strengths. The sequels are a bit on the dodgy side, but if you enjoy the first one could be worth a look. You may or may not have trouble getting hold of the DVD though, potentially.

The Howling is much more of a classic Werewolf movie, in most ways. It also has some pretty impressive werewolf effects considering the age. As a bonus, it also features Patrick Macnee and it's always a pleasure to catch up with Steed, I find. I'm pretty sure there are no sequels (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FanonDiscontinuity).

Brother Oni
2011-10-16, 04:42 PM
A good number of wolf species...are not endangered...in the slightest. Wolves are scary things, not something a normal person would be able to fight back against if they were just as smart as themselves. They're big, nearly unkillable, smart and faster than you. They've got sharper teeth than you and know how to use them. Most can also turn int a hybrid form that can rip you to shreds even faster. I'd be scared of a real life wolf to be honest. A magical somewhat human one even more so.

Even so, the strength of the wolf isn't in its sharp teeth or superior physical abilities to a human - it's the fact that it's a pack animal that co-operates with other pack members well.
You may be able to take one down in a one-on-one duel, but when there's a pack of them working together to take you down, you're fresh meat.

Mr.Silver
2011-10-16, 05:43 PM
Even so, the strength of the wolf isn't in its sharp teeth or superior physical abilities to a human - it's the fact that it's a pack animal that co-operates with other pack members well.
You may be able to take one down in a one-on-one duel, but when there's a pack of them working together to take you down, you're fresh meat.

I kind of felt the real 'fear factor' of the werewolf is less that they're angry giant wolves but more because, underneath that, they're actual people. Vampires are manipulative, predatory (both literally and sexually) sadists that view everyone who isn't one of them as being barely even animals that are only worth whatever the vampire can get out of them. Zombies are the hostile groupthink mob, individually useless but always too numerous to fight off and too populous to hide from, they will either consume you or assimilate you.

Werewolves are violent, bloodthirsty killers who'll rip you to shreds as soon as look at you, but that's only half the story. Most of the time they're just a regular person, they can be an unpleasant one but they're just as likely to be a friend, a relative, the neighbour you chat with every week, that nice man who runs the corner shop or your local police officer. Sure, a vampire or zombie could have been any of those people too but now that person is just a face the monster wears, a weapon the monster may use against you. But a werewolf is that person, and give him a few hours or a couple of days he'll be that person again. He never meant to hurt you or anyone - most of the time he won't even be aware of what he's doing - and when his 'bad patch' has passed he'll go back to being the parent or lover or friend he always was, treating you with all the kindness he always did, until the beast inside comes out again.

I'll admit this isn't an angle that typically gets addressed in werewolf stories - which might be why they've never quite grabbed the public consciousness in quite the same way as Vampires and Zombies - but it's still there. Even aside from that, it can be a lot harder to kill werewolves, and not just because of needing silver bullets. With anything else, you're just killing a monster. Sure, a vampire may have been a human once, but now it's something far worse - hell, the original human might as well be dead already. If you shoot the werewolf though, you are quite unambiguously killing a person - a person who may well be a victim themselves.

blackjack217
2011-10-16, 07:03 PM
Twilight had werewolfs right? Does that count.

SaintRidley
2011-10-16, 07:07 PM
I'm a fan of the Ginger Snaps series.

Bhu
2011-10-16, 09:39 PM
I kind of felt the real 'fear factor' of the werewolf is less that they're angry giant wolves but more because, underneath that, they're actual people. Vampires are manipulative, predatory (both literally and sexually) sadists that view everyone who isn't one of them as being barely even animals that are only worth whatever the vampire can get out of them. Zombies are the hostile groupthink mob, individually useless but always too numerous to fight off and too populous to hide from, they will either consume you or assimilate you.


Modern films gloss over the myths a lot. With some exceptions traditional European vampires arent sophisticated or manipulative, and dont much interact with people. They're soulless, possibly demon-possessed corpses and look like such. They pop in, take what they want, and leave with most people being able to do little to stop them. They also tend to be loners as opposed to large gangs or organizations as seen in modern movies.

Some werewolves in european myth were the result of curses or being bitten or some other method, but many were due to voluntary transformation. Witches usually, or Satan after Christianity began replacing paganism. Most were said to fall into severe depression if the curse were involuntary, but whether in wolf or human form they were supposed to be distinguishable from normal people (usually be being larger and tailless in wolf form). Because of that it's hard to write a werewolf story using the traditional myths (not that most remember them). In most modern werewolf films there's no 'origin'. There's nothing connecting them to the world at large. They might be an alternate race, but then that makes it hard to sustain disbelief that no one would know of them. If you go with myth, it raises the question why they dont commit suicide if they feel guilty and want to stop their crimes if death is the only cure for them. And if they're evil...well the whole satan worship thing has been done to death in film. If you're going to sell your soul to demons for power, why ask for turning into a horse sized wolf in a modern age?

Mr.Silver
2011-10-17, 05:12 AM
Modern films gloss over the myths a lot.
Hence why I'm talking about the monsters in question as horror archetypes, rather than actual mythological entities. 'Mythologically accurate' monsters are basically nonexistent in horror fiction after all.

Eldan
2011-10-17, 05:26 AM
Personally, I'd love to see a movie about vampire melons.

Serpentine
2011-10-17, 05:27 AM
An American Werewolf in London?That's the one I was gonna suggest.
Trick 'R Treat (only one of three subplots)A fun movie anyway :3

I'm always disappointed in the depiction of werewolves. Say what you will about Twilight (and oh, I will), but at least the werewolves looked like wolves and not, say, mutant beaver-rats (my direct description of Underworld's werewolves, but appropriate for most others).

Not a movie, but Being Human is a good show with a few werewolves. The American werewolves look significantly better than the UK ones, but they're both good shows (for different reasons).

edit: I think I've seen a movie about a vampire melon... Or potato? Maybe an episode of Goosebumps? :smallconfused:

edit mk. 2: Oh yeah, Red Riding Hood. iirc the werewolf was reasonably good appearance-wise, but overall a pretty mediocre movie.

Brother Oni
2011-10-17, 06:46 AM
I kind of felt the real 'fear factor' of the werewolf is less that they're angry giant wolves but more because, underneath that, they're actual people.

I was addressing the point about wolves, rather than werewolves, but now that you mention it, I agree that the scary thing about werewolves is the fact that they're people underneath, but for different reasons.

It's the fact that underneath the shell of a normal person is a beast trying to get out and all it takes for them to lose control is a trivial trigger such as a full moon. In this respect, they're not much different from serial killers, a hidden horror hiding amongst us.

Since most horror movies depict the change as involuntary, it could be argued that the beast has greater control and is in fact the true personality. The nice person who lives next door is just the cover for the monster that's waiting for its chance to kill and devour you.


Hence why I'm talking about the monsters in question as horror archetypes, rather than actual mythological entities. 'Mythologically accurate' monsters are basically nonexistent in horror fiction after all.

Depends on the medium of the depiction. Many Hong Kong movies have fairly accurate representations of ghosts and other eastern mythology critters, with interactions between mortals and the supernatural being quite logical extensions of existing folklore.

Unfortunately going into further detail trips the 'no religion' clause of this board, as most of this stuff is Chinese folk customs and religion, if not outright Buddism or Taoism.

There was also a TV series called She-Wolf of London (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/She-Wolf_of_London) which essentially had the same setup as the original American Werewolf in London (American transfer student becomes a werewolf while in the UK) and explored various British myths like bog men (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bog_Man) and had a non 'mutant beaver rat' depiction of a werewolf in the first series (ignore the second series, it's dire).

KillianHawkeye
2011-10-17, 06:56 AM
Not necessarily a Werewolf movie, but that Van Helsing movie w/ Hugh Jackman had pretty good looking werewolves (if albeit a different take on the transformation process).

But that was in no way a good movie, so disqualified for other reasons.

You, sir, are out of your mind.

I would also reccomend Underworld for werewolf/vampire crossover movies.

H Birchgrove
2011-10-17, 07:07 AM
Wolf from 1994 directed by Mike Nichols and starring Jack Nicholson, Michelle Pfeiffer, James Spader etc. The only annoying aspect I can think of is the typical "Magical Native American".

Trixie
2011-10-17, 07:08 AM
I kind of liked both Cat People movies, though, technically they were Werepanther movies, so I don't know if they qualify.

Mewtarthio
2011-10-17, 12:20 PM
Now that I think about it, I actually can't recall ever reading a good werewolf story. Sure, there are good stories that have werewolves in them, but nothing that really uses lycanthropy as a major theme.

I guess I don't really see what you're supposed to do with them. Pretty much any story I can think of that would work for a werewolf could be done better by a more subtle monster. Heck, even the whole "Nice guy who turns into a monster" schtick has been done to death by "friendly" vampires, demon possessees, and superheroes with evil alter-egos. Plus, the full moon requirement can seriously slow down the story, even using the modern version where the moon is "full enough" for three days a month instead of one.


edit: I think I've seen a movie about a vampire melon... Or potato? Maybe an episode of Goosebumps? :smallconfused:

It Came From Beneath the Sink had a vampire potato in it. It was said to be the cousin of the book's main antagonist (an evil sponge that inflicts bad luck on its owner) and showed up in the last paragraph to latch onto the protagonist. Ah, the ninties and their penchant for last-second cliffhangers...

Mulletmanalive
2011-10-17, 12:38 PM
Modern films gloss over the myths a lot. With some exceptions traditional European vampires are sophisticated or manipulative, and dont much interact with people. They're soulless, possibly demon-possessed corpses and look like such. They pop in, take what they want, and leave with most people being able to do little to stop them. They also tend to be loners as opposed to large gangs or organizations as seen in modern movies.

Some werewolves in european myth were the result of curses or being bitten or some other method, but many were due to voluntary transformation. Witches usually, or Satan after Christianity began replacing paganism.
For the former, that's actually why i rather liked Against the Darkness by Stephen Segal. The monsters are basically emagiated versions of the fat smotherers from the old myths.

I'm intruiged by the sources you have for these early werewolf stories... All the versions i know of date from 1760 or later and have the curious Victorian view of wolves as loners prominent. Most read like wendigo myths too.

Personally, I'd love to see a movie about vampire melons.

Would tomatoes do you? There was an episode of the Attack of the Killer Tomatoes series where they became vampires.

For reference, Twilight and Underworld are neither Werewolf movies [though they have werewolves occasionally] any more than Phantasm is a zombie movie, nor are they really horror films...

Bhu
2011-10-17, 02:07 PM
Hence why I'm talking about the monsters in question as horror archetypes, rather than actual mythological entities. 'Mythologically accurate' monsters are basically nonexistent in horror fiction after all.

They exist, but theyre mostly in foreign films or indie stuff or hard t ofind.

Bhu
2011-10-17, 02:22 PM
For the former, that's actually why i rather liked Against the Darkness by Stephen Segal. The monsters are basically emagiated versions of the fat smotherers from the old myths.

I'm intruiged by the sources you have for these early werewolf stories... All the versions i know of date from 1760 or later and have the curious Victorian view of wolves as loners prominent. Most read like wendigo myths too.



I meant to say 'arent' in that quote..

I have a lot of books on vampires/werewolves, myths and legends, etc

But surprisingly the wiki on werewolves has a decent amount of info

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werewolf

I can get you the books later after work if u want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUP5Vr0lBvY

also not a werewolf movie but at least the trailer looks interesting

Eldan
2011-10-17, 02:24 PM
Would tomatoes do you? There was an episode of the Attack of the Killer Tomatoes series where they became vampires.

Eh, not really. Vampire melons (and squashes, I think?) are quite specific bits of folklore. Under some conditions, these fruit could turn red, and apparently, folklore claimed they were sucking blood.

Bhu
2011-10-17, 07:58 PM
Eh, not really. Vampire melons (and squashes, I think?) are quite specific bits of folklore. Under some conditions, these fruit could turn red, and apparently, folklore claimed they were sucking blood.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire_pumpkins_and_watermelons

No brains
2011-10-17, 10:56 PM
A good number of wolf species...are not endangered...in the slightest.
Yeah I screwed up there, the gray wolf is no longer endangered. Even so, as a medium-sized predator, wolves are some of the first species to get weeded out when humans settle.

Wolves are scary things, not something a normal person would be able to fight back against if they were just as smart as themselves.
Thumbs. Next point.

They're big, nearly unkillable,
Are you still talking about wolves or have you moved onto were-wolves now? Wolves are exceptionally killable. Even in some were-wolf stories, you don't even need silver to kill them. Just something to poke a hole in it like most other living things. Even then, silver is pretty abundant in society and jury-rigging a weapon is usually no problem.

Back to regular wolves, if you have anything from a sharp stick to even your bare hands if you can use them well enough... or a gun... it's pretty easy to inflict a killing wound. Even against a wolf's teeth, you're pretty well off because its teeth are its only weapon. Not only that, but wolves will try to pull on you before they go for your throat, so if you have thick padding on one arm, you can let it bite you and then strangle it to death.

smart and faster than you. They've got sharper teeth than you and know how to use them.
I know how to use a gun. Guns kill elephants; who are also smart, fast, and big.

Most can also turn int a hybrid form that can rip you to shreds even faster.
This is where I don't get werewolves. Neither humans nor wolves have offensive claws, so why do werewolves? A human-wolf hybrid ends up losing the body mechanics that make both creatures particularly deadly, being the brain size in humans and the quadrupedal stance that makes wolves fast and good at pull on things. There is evidence to suggest forsaking biting things is what let human skulls adapt to holding brains versus anchoring muscles. To me what makes both humans and wolves interesting is their evolutionary background and how nicely adapted they are at what they do. The magical aspects of werewolves seem out of place and kind of thrown on.

I'd be scared of a real life wolf to be honest. A magical somewhat human one even more so.
Raid you granny's silver cutlery and wrap jeans around your left arm. Congratulations, you are equipped to fight even were-wolves. Failing that, you could also get any of the more practical instruments of death our kind has crafted over eons.

Bhu
2011-10-17, 11:17 PM
Wolves have claws they just arent used offensively because the jaws are a more optimal solution. They have more muscle power they can bring to bear, and they can latch on. In some of the werewolf legends though werewolves have poison, or are the size of a horse. I personally would not like to fight anything the size of a horse. A 150 pound dog would be difficult enough to most people.

There's also the problem of packs. A smart werewolf would get your attention while 2 or 3 more got into position behind you.

No brains
2011-10-17, 11:42 PM
Wolves have claws they just arent used offensively because the jaws are a more optimal solution. They have more muscle power they can bring to bear, and they can latch on. In some of the werewolf legends though werewolves have poison, or are the size of a horse. I personally would not like to fight anything the size of a horse. A 150 pound dog would be difficult enough to most people.

There's also the problem of packs. A smart werewolf would get your attention while 2 or 3 more got into position behind you.

Wolf... poison... Do they also shoot webs? It's this bizarre crap that really makes me disinterested in werewolves. The designation of a werewolf specifically brings wolves to mind. If they were named something different then maybe I could accept them having cat like claws and... poison.

Also the ridiculous size is something else a little more acceptable because bigger is scarier, but as I said guns kill elephants. Pointy sticks properly applied kill elephants.

As for them latching on, part of the padded arm strategy is to let them latch on so you can get your other arm around to their neck to either slice or even squeeze. Granted a horse-sized... poison... wolf with cat claws would call for a different solution.

An oh boy. A social animal. Humans never had to fight those growing up. They bring their homes and I bring mine and we have us a royal throw-down.

Once again, I think I have to go back to me not seeing werewolves as a terrifying monster and more like an animal or antisocial human being. I get that there is the angle of the loss of humanity to rage and their 'disease' as a metaphor for hate begetting hate, but there are better animals for rampages as wolves are usually more calm and intelligent social hunters. With other monsters, the bull plop of their powers is much easier to accept because I already have to suspend my disbelief to accept they even exist. I suppose when I want a puzzle of fear and horror I either want it go totally bizarre or just go home.

Serpentine
2011-10-18, 01:51 AM
Now that I think about it, I actually can't recall ever reading a good werewolf story. Sure, there are good stories that have werewolves in them, but nothing that really uses lycanthropy as a major theme.There's a nice Jewish werewolf story I know. Busy now, but if you like I'll find an online version or copy it from the book for you.

Bhu
2011-10-18, 02:55 AM
Wolf... poison... Do they also shoot webs? It's this bizarre crap that really makes me disinterested in werewolves. The designation of a werewolf specifically brings wolves to mind. If they were named something different then maybe I could accept them having cat like claws and... poison.

I should prolly not mention the Russian demigod/folk hero whose a half dragon werewolf and spits fire should I (seriously there is one).

The padded arm strategy is problematic. Wolves or larger dogs have enough bite strength to break the bone even if they dont get through the padding. Most people, even trained to fight, have problems fighting back after that happens (they also dont have the strength/leverage to resist being pulled). Also the wolfs first instinct is to pull you to the ground to get a better choice of targets, or drop you so the pack can rush in from all sides. Nowadays we have guns, but when many of the legends were formed guns weren't as good as they are now, didn't exist, or had serious problems such as blowing up in your hand (depending on the area the myth comes from). The silver bullet thing is largely a later invention. You also have to dispose of the body properly because a werewolf in some parts of europe is guaranteed to become a vampire once it dies (in fact some places use the same term for both creatures interchangeably).

Brother Oni
2011-10-18, 05:54 AM
I know how to use a gun. Guns kill elephants; who are also smart, fast, and big.

Modern days, poachers use automatic rifles at range from jeeps. Plinking at an elephant with a handgun on foot usually means an annoyed elephant trampling all over you.

In the case of a werewolf, you have something as intelligent as you, aware of the capabilities of modern tool use, but physically superior with built in natural weaponry.
The film Dog Soldiers depicts a squad of soldiers up against a pack of werewolves - the soldiers just scrape a win even with automatic weaponry and a fortified position.


The padded arm strategy is problematic. Wolves or larger dogs have enough bite strength to break the bone even if they dont get through the padding. Most people, even trained to fight, have problems fighting back after that happens (they also dont have the strength/leverage to resist being pulled).

In addition to this, wolves tend to go for the throat instead of the arm if they're trying to kill you. It's why sheep dogs in areas with wolves tend to have studded collars to help protect them when fighting with wolves.

Soras Teva Gee
2011-10-18, 07:33 AM
Wolf... poison... Do they also shoot webs? It's this bizarre crap that really makes me disinterested in werewolves. The designation of a werewolf specifically brings wolves to mind. If they were named something different then maybe I could accept them having cat like claws and... poison.

As opposed to turning into a bat or mist while also having hairy palms, a unibrow, and needing to sleep in a box of dirt?


Also the ridiculous size is something else a little more acceptable because bigger is scarier, but as I said guns kill elephants. Pointy sticks properly applied kill elephants.

Its 1800 you take your gun and shoot the wolf stalking your farm. You miss.

I highly encourage then use pointy stick against a creature stronger and fast then you with nice big teeth designed to kill mammals of your size or better. Especially since pointy stick doesn't even make a big noise to maybe frighten the thing off.

Oh and its never alone. You on the other hand are a maybe an hours travel from one/two more able bodied persons the next farm over. That's if you don't fall and break something making your way in the dark with only the poor light of whatever lamp you have.

paddyfool
2011-10-18, 07:37 AM
On a sidenote, that collar reminds me of a detail which annoys me about werewolves, vampires etc.: how poorly they seem to adapt to their specific vulnerabilities.

If I were writing up a vampiric villain, he'd wear a stab jacket and some kind of armoured collar if he had any reason to expect trouble. Plus maybe a mask under the right circumstances (ideally a full on steel mask to hide his identity, fangs, etc., and help protect against holy water-to-the-face). In a world with limited knowledge of vampires, he'd winter in the arctic circle half the year and the antarctic circle the other half. If a vampiric hero... probably something similar, but maybe working at a large hospital as a cleaner and harvesting the "expired" blood stocks (disposed of within a good margin of error for safety, and thus probably still good for vampires, although they would of course be citrated).

If a werewolf villain, he'd go somewhere properly lawless to prey. Operating as a mercenary, aid worker, mission doctor, or somesuch in a third-world warzone, perhaps (assuming the standard immunity to conventional weaponry). If a werewolf hero (fighting the beast within, etc.)... he'd build a sturdy cage, with some kind of failsafe werewolf-killing backup. (Some security expert with a very tight no-disclosure policy and contract, watching on a video monitor and ready to activate an electrified floor, cloud of wolfsbane, and silver spikes falling from the roof, perhaps.)

But then, few of these would make for good stories (with the possible exception of the villainous werewolf in a war zone, which could potentially be milked for a short story or a horror movie with an investigative slant and unusual setting... in the latter case, I might have the werewolf actually pose as the hero, out to hunt the beast etc.; easy enough to fool the audience that Joe clean-faced white guy is a good guy, if you follow him from the start and only show one side of his activities for most of the film).


Its 1800 you take your gun and shoot the wolf stalking your farm. You miss.

I highly encourage then use pointy stick against a creature stronger and fast then you with nice big teeth designed to kill mammals of your size or better. Especially since pointy stick doesn't even make a big noise to maybe frighten the thing off.

Oh and its never alone. You on the other hand are a maybe an hours travel from one/two more able bodied persons the next farm over. That's if you don't fall and break something making your way in the dark with only the poor light of whatever lamp you have.

I think you have an exaggerated idea of the ferocity and capabilities of a wolf. Most wolves still won't go for you, unless absolutely starving. And if they are starving, well, farmers have dogs on their side too.

comicshorse
2011-10-18, 07:55 AM
[QUOTE=Brother Oni;12049485
The film Dog Soldiers depicts a squad of soldiers up against a pack of werewolves - the soldiers just scrape a win even with automatic weaponry and a fortified position.
[/QUOTE]

But if I remember rightly the Werewolves are immune to bullets or at least heal so fast that all bullets do is knock them down for a while. It takes silver or a big enough explosion to reduce them to chunks to kill them

Soras Teva Gee
2011-10-18, 07:57 AM
On a sidenote, that collar reminds me of a detail which annoys me about werewolves, vampires etc.: how poorly they seem to adapt to their specific vulnerabilities.

If I were writing up a vampiric villain, he'd wear a stab jacket and some kind of armoured collar if he had any reason to expect trouble. Plus maybe a mask under the right circumstances (ideally a full on steel mask to hide his identity, fangs, etc., and help protect against holy water-to-the-face). In a world with limited knowledge of vampires, he'd winter in the arctic circle half the year and the antarctic circle the other half. If a vampiric hero... probably something similar, but maybe working at a large hospital as a cleaner and harvesting the "expired" blood stocks (disposed of within a good margin of error for safety, and thus probably still good for vampires, although they would of course be citrated).

So in order to avoid being taken for a vampire you'd cosplay as Doctor Doom? Why does this not strike me as being as effective as just keeping a low profile and keeping your mouth shut 90% of the time.

And the whole staking thing is easy enough to avoid by not having ribs made of stryofoam. Why it originally involved a hammer and attacking the vampire in its sleep.

There's a rather more obvious problem with occupying the sparsely populated poles of the Earth. Though it was always rumored some elder Gangrels or Nos were doing it in V:tM these were the elders of the Lovecraftian Horror variety not exactly garden variety vamps.

And using donated blood sources is an old trick, just that regurlarly supplying yourself with such thing requires is difficult over the long run when fresh steaks are all around you. That if y'know it can still do the trick even.


If a werewolf villain, he'd go somewhere properly lawless to prey. Operating as a mercenary, aid worker, mission doctor, or somesuch in a third-world warzone, perhaps (assuming the standard immunity to conventional weaponry). If a werewolf hero (fighting the beast within, etc.)... he'd build a sturdy cage, with some kind of failsafe werewolf-killing backup. (Some security expert with a very tight no-disclosure policy and contract, watching on a video monitor and ready to activate an electrified floor, cloud of wolfsbane, and silver spikes falling from the roof, perhaps.)

But then, few of these would make for good stories (with the possible exception of the villainous werewolf in a war zone, which could potentially be milked for a short story or a horror movie with an investigative slant and unusual setting).

I can think of various examples where werewolves built themselves cages. However as you note rule of drama. Course there's a fair number of cases where the transformation is controllable, not strictly a fool moon thing.




I think you have an exaggerated idea of the ferocity and capabilities of a wolf. Most wolves still won't go for you, unless absolutely starving. And if they are starving, well, farmers have dogs on their side too.

Which is why us weak, slow, and naturally weaponless apes survived. Because the dangerous stuff doesn't have it in for us on the whole. This is not to suggest that in something resembling a fair fight we have the advantage. Us brain apes merely made sure the fights weren't fair in the long run.

ufis
2011-10-18, 08:03 AM
Is there such thing as a good werewolf movie?
Underworld: Rise of the Lycans (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0834001/) was not bad. Not a pure werewolf movie, but it has werewolves. And vampires.

Eldan
2011-10-18, 08:19 AM
I'll have to remember that as an NPC.

An intellectual Norwegian Vampire who works on the Antarctic research station every summer semester.

Story Time
2011-10-18, 08:55 AM
Just to add a little more to the thread...


Also the ridiculous size is something else a little more acceptable because bigger is scarier, but as I said guns kill elephants. Pointy sticks properly applied kill elephants.

I laughed at this. It is...a bit far-fetched. The elephant is one of the largest and most intelligent mammals in the world. Despite the proven myths about most elephants and mice, I have read journals with accounts of enraged elephants spearing humans through with their tusks after shrugging off arrows, spears, javelins, and pistol fire.

Only a particular size and set of high-power rifle cartridges are capable of bringing down an elephant without a small army or some kind of prepared trap. Even then, the rifle could jam or mis-fire.

While it is accurate to say that a sharp and pointy stick could be hurled through an elephant's eye and deliver brain damage, the brain of an elephant ( and I have seen what they look like ) has size and mass enough to prevent that single blow from being fatal.


And as stated previously, elephants do tend to travel in groups, though not always. Now just imagine something with roughly comparable traits in the shape of a wolf. Wolves are pack hunters when they can be.



In addition to this, wolves tend to go for the throat instead of the arm if they're trying to kill you. It's why sheep dogs in areas with wolves tend to have studded collars to help protect them when fighting with wolves.

I think that Brother Oni means the pelvis. With humans as a target the throat is a good second choice for dogs. Canine against canine, the throat is obvious. The police dog training videos where people hold their arm in front of them is...not very realistic. This is a tool used to train dogs to athletically jump while keeping the live human target safe.

This is why padding the arm and punching down the throat of a dog is effective. Depending on the size of the werewolf the same method could be applicable. Add silver? Colloidal Silver? Grenade?

The generic canine dog has some scratching power if a person can catch its throat in the their hands. A werewolf would simply shred the wrestler at their arteries.



Its 1800 you take your gun and shoot the wolf stalking your farm. You miss.

Indeed. The proper way to fight any pack of wild dogs is fire, numbers, good marksmanship, and maybe the odd explosive trap.


As for the original post? I have no idea. I am not much into the genre... Sorry. :smallsmile:

Dr. Simon
2011-10-18, 10:01 AM
Ginger Snaps isn't bad, although it's unconventional enough that it might not quite count as a 'true' werewolf film and it probably owes at least as much to Cat People as it does The Wolfman. I mean there are werewolves in it - and the protagonists are genre-savvy enough to recognise them as such - but the whole aspect of lycanthropy is explored more in allusion to puberty (particularly in regards to the menstrual cycle) than a metaphor for the 'beast within'.

Company of Wolves also explores werewolves in a more metaphorical fashion - the man with "inside hair", as the film says. The beast within, sexual awakening, fear of the unknown, all mixed up a series of stylish vignettes that draw upon the psychology of folk tales. But then it's based on an Angela Carter story, so you'd expect that.

On a related note, isn't there the running joke in Pratchett about Carrot's girlfriend becoming, er, "difficult to live with" on a monthly basis?

No brains
2011-10-18, 10:27 AM
I should prolly not mention the Russian demigod/folk hero whose a half dragon werewolf and spits fire should I (seriously there is one).

... You also have to dispose of the body properly because a werewolf in some parts of europe is guaranteed to become a vampire once it dies (in fact some places use the same term for both creatures interchangeably).

By all means please mention that one. As I said, something absolutely crazy like a flying reptile that barfs fire is respectable because it is not misleading in what it is; it is a creature that very blatantly plays by different rules than the plain meat-bag biology one is used to seeing.

Your final point is why I prefer vampires to werewolves most of the time. Being able to assume the guise of a feared animal is just part of a package of crazy crap that comes from a creature that once again is much more obviously problematic to kill than something that regularly gets killed by people.


Modern days, poachers use automatic rifles at range from jeeps. Plinking at an elephant with a handgun on foot usually means an annoyed elephant trampling all over you.

...In addition to this, wolves tend to go for the throat instead of the arm if they're trying to kill you. It's why sheep dogs in areas with wolves tend to have studded collars to help protect them when fighting with wolves.
I submit for your approval someone on foot hunting an elephant with quite obviously one shot (literally) at killing it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJokpxvMmvA

Okay, I get that the padded arm deal might not work, but not opting for a strategy a caveman could call ghetto might deny the wolf the ability to clamp on you at all. Wolves have been hunted, sometimes as a social activity, for a long time. Being just as smart as a human isn't much of an edge because humans are as smart as humans and humans hunt humans just fine. The natural weaponry is also greatly overplayed because it's not too hard to be armed with a weapon anyway, not to mention it would be a weapon that doesn't require you shove your sensory organs into whatever you are attacking.

I also have to legitimately thank you. I was always curious as to the origin of spiked dog collars and your explanation makes a good deal of sense. Thank you for sharing that with me. :smallsmile:


As opposed to turning into a bat or mist while also having hairy palms, a unibrow, and needing to sleep in a box of dirt?


Its 1800 you take your gun and shoot the wolf stalking your farm. You miss.

I highly encourage then use pointy stick against a creature stronger and fast then you with nice big teeth designed to kill mammals of your size or better. Especially since pointy stick doesn't even make a big noise to maybe frighten the thing off.

Oh and its never alone. You on the other hand are a maybe an hours travel from one/two more able bodied persons the next farm over. That's if you don't fall and break something making your way in the dark with only the poor light of whatever lamp you have.

Since I see it's not getting across, I will say it again: having unusual strategies and abilities outside of those of a large canid makes a monster more monstrous to me. Even though werewolves may have these, it is the misleading name that fails to imply something beyond wolf characteristics that makes them less appealing as monsters to me.

I also don't like the barely distinguished sarcasm on tool use for fighting wolves. It works. You are also barely distinguish whether this is a were or regular wolf, and in both cases I could lock a door and wait until day to mitigate the threat of both of them, my sheep be damned.

Also in a rural setting at that time, I could die of diarrhea. In that scenario a completely mundane rabbit I killed and failed to cook right can kill me. The deck is already methodically stacked against me and telling me a werewolf could kill me then isn't big news.

I should also use this time to apologize for the initial break in internet etiquette. The OP was asking if there were any enjoyable werewolf movies and I went on to say werewolves weren't appealing to me. I was thinking my explanation of why I am dissatisfied with this choice of monster might give a reason why there are seemingly few good moves on this subject. We can continue the childish ouroboros of back and forth yes and no until the internet ends but we are unlikely to change the minds of one another. I'm sorry if this derailed the thread, but hopefully the discussion might have brought to mind some entertaining aspects of werewolf lore for the OP.


I'll have to remember that as an NPC.

An intellectual Norwegian Vampire who works on the Antarctic research station every summer semester.

He might think he's smart for spending months out of the sun, but he better watch out when that creature doesn't turn into just a (half) wolf.:smallbiggrin:

Brother Oni
2011-10-18, 02:26 PM
But if I remember rightly the Werewolves are immune to bullets or at least heal so fast that all bullets do is knock them down for a while. It takes silver or a big enough explosion to reduce them to chunks to kill them

It's hard to tell (you never see them directly shot), but the amount of damage Spoon did to that werewolf suggests some sort of immunity/regeneration/unnatural toughness.



I submit for your approval someone on foot hunting an elephant with quite obviously one shot (literally) at killing it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJokpxvMmvA


That's a fairly hefty crossbow (225lb draw) at a short distance shot (15-18 yrds) and listening to the video, the entire 20" bolt went into the elephant's body. Given all that, they still waited until it went down before going anywhere near it, which meant it probably took a while to die.

I concede that hunting an elephant could be done on foot, however I suspect things would have gone a lot differently if the elephant had spotted them.



Being just as smart as a human isn't much of an edge because humans are as smart as humans and humans hunt humans just fine.

Werewolves are just as smart as a human, but with all the sensory abilities (primarily olfactory) of a wolf, which gives them an edge. As an example, suppose you had two humans in the wilderness trying to kill each other at night, only one had NVGs.



The natural weaponry is also greatly overplayed because it's not too hard to be armed with a weapon anyway, not to mention it would be a weapon that doesn't require you shove your sensory organs into whatever you are attacking.

It depends on how well armed the human is and whether the werewolf has its traditional immunity to non-silver weapons (or regenerates very quickly).

With immunity, then the human's at best playing a waiting game until he either runs out of ammo or they escape. Without modern firearms, they're probably dog food.

Without immunity, then the human's chances of survival are directly proportional to how well armed they are, ranging from near 100% with modern firearms down to low chance when unarmed. (Survival in this case means either killing the werewolf or keeping it scared off until you can escape because of the big boomstick/sharp pointy implement)

Also, while I agree silver is more abundant now than in the Middle Ages, it's still not all that common - for example the only silver I have in my household is my wife's jewellery and that's certainly not in form that easily lends itself to use as a weapon (aside from maybe nailing them into a 2x4 plank).

Mulletmanalive
2011-10-18, 03:42 PM
In my experience [I did work experience at an RAF military kennel], canines don't attack humans anywhere except the legs. Specifically, they go after the calves.

People go down, start panicking, get "rolled," which is where they grab your neck and throw their body over the top. Breaks your neck. Seen it done to foxes and the effort we had to go to to protect the "offender" from this was extreme.

According to Wikipedia, wolves are more competent in a fight than a hunting dog [which are smaller than an attack dog] but have weaker senses. Even with an automatic weapon, I don't fancy my chances in dense terrain.

In the open, your argument stands, No Brains, but honestly, adding in malice to animals is scary enough [check out The Birds if you don't believe me], let alone making the darn things smarter than you, in addition to superior senses, speed and camoflage...



My actual favourite portrayal of werewolves is actually the "wolfman" style, like in Supernatural. People turning into nigh unstoppable cannibal monsters when the moon is full. Skinchangers are interesting enough but mostly dangerous because people are not actively hunting them when encountered.

H Birchgrove
2011-10-18, 04:12 PM
On a related note, isn't there the running joke in Pratchett about Carrot's girlfriend becoming, er, "difficult to live with" on a monthly basis?

Alan Moore did something similar - in a more serious, tragic and horrifying fashion - in one of his Swamp Thing comics.

paddyfool
2011-10-18, 04:43 PM
So in order to avoid being taken for a vampire you'd cosplay as Doctor Doom? Why does this not strike me as being as effective as just keeping a low profile and keeping your mouth shut 90% of the time.

It could be a steel mask, a hockey mask, a halloween mask, even a balaclava. It would still provide two functions: 1) Holy water protection; 2) Concealing the fact that the villain is a vampire, not joe serial killer.


And the whole staking thing is easy enough to avoid by not having ribs made of stryofoam. Why it originally involved a hammer and attacking the vampire in its sleep.

To quote Pratchett: the way to a man's heart is through his stomach. As a vamp, with immortality at stake (badump) I'd want a stab jacket. Also serious abs, just in case.


There's a rather more obvious problem with occupying the sparsely populated poles of the Earth. Though it was always rumored some elder Gangrels or Nos were doing it in V:tM these were the elders of the Lovecraftian Horror variety not exactly garden variety vamps.

There's enough people in Scandinavia, Canada, Alaska, northern parts of Russia etc., or, on the other side, NZ, South Africa, Tasmania, Argentina, and Chile to keep a mobile predator moving for a fair while in and around the Arctic and Antarctic circles. It would, obviously, be much easier if they didn't have to feed too often - say weekly, or biweekly rather than daily - but the thing is, there are really major perks to keeping a planet between you and the sun if it'll immolate you on sight. Add in a job which justifies a lot of travel, and you're pretty much set for two good hunting seasons a year.

Eldan
2011-10-19, 08:12 AM
Or you could just jet-set in a fast plane. Keep ahead of the date line so it's always night, wherever you are.

Mewtarthio
2011-10-19, 11:40 AM
Wouldn't that get expensive?

Dr.Epic
2011-10-19, 12:10 PM
Trick 'r' Treat. It had them

H Birchgrove
2011-10-19, 03:09 PM
Wouldn't that get expensive?

Now I imagine a sci-fi story in which stinkin' rich vampires live in nuclear-powered aircrafts that fly for months - as opposed to the poor vampires living on the ground. Hmm Bram Stoker meets H.G. Wells... Should I go through with it?

comicshorse
2011-10-19, 05:15 PM
With air-to-air re-fueling I'd think it would be possible, if insanely expensive and difficult to maintain.
If I remeber rightly in the 2,000AD comic 'A Love Like Blood' that was how the Blood-Sire (the first vampire) choose to live

Bhu
2011-10-19, 09:45 PM
Or you could just jet-set in a fast plane. Keep ahead of the date line so it's always night, wherever you are.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119784/