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View Full Version : The Handyman, Master of All Skills (3.5 base class, PEACH)



Noctis Vigil
2011-10-17, 02:20 AM
For some time now I've wanted to make a character who's whole schtick was skills, and would blow any other skill monkey out of the water. After much work, I believe I have finally done so. Unfortunately, I have no idea how well this would work, so I give it to you here to review and tell me what you think. I already know this would work poorly in an extremely combat heavy campaign; my goal was not combat versatility (though he is fairly proficient in most things), but out of combat versatility. I was aiming for tier 4 or 3.

Class: Handyman

Some people are good at fighting, some at arcane magic, some at divine power. Some, though, choose to forgo the realm of might and focus instead on the realm of skill. These are the handymen of the world.

Handymen are well valued in most any party and situation because of the great variety of things they can do, as well as their ability to give instructions that even a dunce can follow.

Handymen don't fall under any particular alignment or religion, although they do tend towards law more than chaos. Most who do follow a god follow one who values hard work and high skill.



Level

BAB
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save

Special
Skilled Bonus
Skilled Movement


1st

+0

+2

+2

+2
Skill Focus

+2

-0 ACP, +0 MDM


2nd

+1

+3

+3

+3
Trapfinding

+4

-1 ACP, +1 MDM


3rd

+2

+3

+3

+3
Skill Focus

+6

-1 ACP, +1 MDM


4th

+3

+4

+4

+4
Greater Synergy

+8

-1 ACP, +1 MDM


5th

+3

+4

+4

+4
Skill Focus

+10

-1 ACP, +1 MDM


6th

+4

+5

+5

+5
Evasion

+12

-2 ACP, +2 MDM


7th

+5

+5

+5

+5
Skill Focus

+14

-2 ACP, +2 MDM


8th

+6/1

+6

+6

+6
Helpful Assistance

+16

-2 ACP, +2 MDM


9th

+6/1

+6

+6

+6
Skill Focus

+18

-2 ACP, +2 MDM


10th

+7/2

+7

+7

+7
Jack Of All Trades

+20

-3 ACP, +3 MDM


11th

+8/3

+7

+7

+7
Skill Focus

+22

-3 ACP, +3 MDM


12th

+9/4

+8

+8

+8
Right Tool For The Job

+24

-3 ACP, +3 MDM


13th

+9/4

+8

+8

+8
Skill Focus

+26

-3 ACP, +3 MDM


14th

+10/5

+9

+9

+9
Improved Evasion

+28

-4 ACP, +4 MDM


15th

+11/6/1

+9

+9

+9
Skill Focus

+30

-4 ACP, +4 MDM


16th

+12/7/2

+10

+10

+10
Instructor

+32

-4 ACP, +4 MDM


17th

+12/7/2

+10

+10

+10
Skill Focus

+34

-4 ACP, +4 MDM


18th

+13/8/3

+11

+11

+11
Hide In Plain Sight

+36

-5 ACP, +5 MDM


19th

+14/9/4

+11

+11

+11
Skill Focus

+38

-5 ACP, +5 MDM


20th

+15/10/5

+12

+12

+12
Perfectly Skilled

+40

-5 ACP, +5 MDM



Class Skills:
The handyman gains all skills as class skills.
Skillpoints at Level Up: 12+Int mod (x4 at first level)
Hit Die: D6

Class Abilities:
The following are all class abilities of a handyman.

Proficiencies: A handyman gains proficiency in all simple and martial weapons. He gains proficiency in all armor and shields (but not tower shields).

Skilled: A handyman knows all the tricks to get the most out of each and every one of his skills. He gains a +2 professional bonus per class level in handyman to all skills he's trained in (+2 at 1st, +4 at 2nd, et cetera). This ability allows him to hit epic-level DCs early on.

Skill Focus: At 1st level, and every odd level thereafter, the handyman gains the feat Skill Focus as a bonus feat.

Trapfinding: A handyman gains Trapfinding at 2nd level, which functions exactly as the Rogue ability of the same name.

Skilled Movement: At 2nd level, the handyman has figured out how to move far more efficiently in his armor. The armor check penalty of any armor he wears is reduced by -1, and decreases by an additional -1 at every 4th level thereafter (-1 at 2nd, -2 at 6th, et cetera), to a minimum of 0.

Furthermore, his maximum dexterity bonus on armor increases by one at level 2, then by an additional plus one at every 4th level thereafter (+1 at 2nd, +2 at 6th, et cetera).

Greater Synergy: Starting at 4th level, all synergy bonuses that a handyman receives to skill checks (such as the +2 synergy bonus he would receive to all Diplomacy checks from having 5 ranks in the Bluff skill) increase to +4.

Evasion: A handyman of 6th level or higher gains Evasion as the Monk ability of the same name, save that he can use it in any type of armor or while wielding a shield.

Helpful Assistance: Any time the handyman of 8th level or higher aids another on a skill check or is aided by another on his skill check, the bonus to his check increases by an amount equal to the assisting character's total ranks in the assisting skill. For example, if a handyman has 5 ranks in Heal and makes a check to stabilize an ally and is aided by a fighter with 4 ranks in the Heal skill, his bonus on a successful aid check is +4.

If the ally aiding the handyman has only one rank in a skill, he still gains the +2 bonus normally granted by aiding.

Jack Of All Trades: At 10th level, the handyman gains the feat Jack Of All Trades (Complete Adventurer page 110) as a bonus feat, allowing him to make skill checks in any skill, even if he has no ranks in it. This feat has an additional benefit to the handyman, in that it allows him to apply his Skilled Bonus to any skill, regardless of whether or not he has ranks in it.

Right Tool For The Job: A handyman always has the right tool for the job or can perfectly improvise one. Always. At 12th level, for any skill check that requires a tool for a normal roll or has a -2 penalty without the tool instead has no penalty without the tool and a +2 bonus with the tool. Also, the bonus granted for having a masterwork tool is increased from +2 on the skill check to +4.

Furthermore, he always has the right weapon or armor for the job as well; he gains proficiency with all exotic weapons, armors and shields (including tower shields).

Improved Evasion: A handyman of 14th level gains Improved Evasion as the Monk ability of the same name, save that he can use it in any type of armor or while wielding a shield.

Instructor: A handyman knows how to give clear, detailed instructions to others. Should a handyman of 16th level or higher take the time to give detailed instructions to another about how to do a task for which he's qualified, the other character gains a competence bonus on that task equal to the handyman's level. The bonus lasts for 10 minutes per handyman class level. Detailed instructions take a minimum of one round to give, and the GM may decide to increase this amount by an appropriate amount at his discretion.

A handyman may also create written instructions. Written instructions work like verbal instructions, but they provide the bonus for as long as the character keeps the written copy. Whoever has the instructions must be able to read them to gain this benefit. Copies of the instructions lose something in the transcribing, and don't provide any benefit; only a handyman himself can write the instruction sheet.

Hide In Plain Sight: A handyman of 18th level or higher may use Hide In Plain Sight as the Ranger ability of the same name.

Perfectly Skilled: By 20th level, a handyman has perfected his skill. He can take 10 as a move action, or take 20 as a full round action, and he can do so when threatened or distracted. Doing so does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Furthermore, while taking 20 usually means you fail 19 times before succeeding on the 20th try, this is not true of the handyman. He may take 20 without the assumed 19 failures taking 20 usually gives, but doing so wears him out; after taking 20 with no chance of failure, he becomes fatigued for 1 minute, and cannot take 20 without a chance of failure again until he's no longer fatigued (this includes being fatigued or exhausted from other sources, such as a spell; he has to be in peak condition to take 20 without failure). Taking 20 with no chance of failure as a full round action provokes attacks of opportunity.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-17, 02:32 AM
Tables are your friend (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205677).

Sorry, but when it comes to readability, as well as a clear, concise view of how your class scales and how many dead levels it has, nothing beats a table. Very very few people on this site will actually take the time to review a piece of homebrew that does not have a table, so, even though it's a ton of coding you probably don't want to do, in this situation you will probably attract 10 times as many flies with honey as you would with vinegar.



Proficiencies: A gains gains no proficiency in all simple and martial weapons. He gains proficiency in light armor and shields (but not tower shields).


Emphasis mine. First of all, you're missing the word "handyman" from the first sentence, and secondly, does he gain proficiency or not? That statement is pretty clear, but it honestly sounds more like a typo than anything else.


Any time a handyman of 4th level or higher gets a synergy bonus, the bonus is +4 instead of the usual +2.


There is nothing wrong with this ability, it's just pretty poorly worded. Try this instead:

Greater Synergy: Starting at 4th level, all synergy bonuses that a handyman receives to skill checks (such as the +2 synergy bonus he would receive to all Diplomacy checks from having 5 ranks in the Bluff skill) increase to +4.

Perfectly Skilled: Normally this would be a great capstone and a fantastic way to end the class, but...you don't automatically fail skill checks on a natural 1.


To make a skill check, roll 1d20 and add your characterís skill modifier for that skill. The skill modifier incorporates the characterís ranks in that skill and the ability modifier for that skillís key ability, plus any other miscellaneous modifiers that may apply, including racial bonuses and armor check penalties. The higher the result, the better. Unlike with attack rolls and saving throws, a natural roll of 20 on the d20 is not an automatic success, and a natural roll of 1 is not an automatic failure.


Emphasis mine. Source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm).

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-17, 02:41 AM
Fixed the typo; thanks for pointing it out.


Perfectly Skilled: Normally this would be a great capstone and a fantastic way to end the class, but...you don't automatically fail skill checks on a natural 1.

:eek:

I've been GMing for years and following that guideline. How could I have missed that?! Great, now I have to come up with another capstone ability. :smallsigh:

Any suggestions on that anyone?

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-17, 03:41 AM
Table added for your viewing pleasure.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-17, 03:47 AM
Table added for your viewing pleasure.

Ah, much better. And the Skilled ability is nice too. It will really help you make those high DC checks like Use Magic Device and Knowledge and Iaijutsu Focus (if you use that skill)

All in all, seems nice. You can easily put 1 rank in every skill and then enjoy that +2/level bonus before you start actually focusing on the really high DC ones with the rest of your ranks.

You might look into the Skill Mastery ability of the exemplar prestige class (Complete Adventurer)

Andion Isurand
2011-10-17, 04:20 AM
I would give him a high will save, I mean, his mind is as great as the rest of him to be capable of all that observation, learning and recall.

Could the instructor ability work via the Message spell or by telepathy to an entire group at once?

Morph Bark
2011-10-17, 04:31 AM
I would give him a high will save, I mean, his mind is as great as the rest of him to be capable of all that observation, learning and recall.

Expert even has a high Will save. The only skillmonkeys (if they can be called so) with a good Fort save are the Ranger and Monk.

Frozen_Feet
2011-10-17, 05:05 AM
A potential capstone: go the other way, and give them the ability to auto-succeed on a natural 20. Other possibility is to allow them to Take 20 without time increase for any check that'd ordinarily take only a full-round action or less.

Hanuman
2011-10-17, 06:07 AM
Huh, so an exemplar base class?

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-17, 07:32 AM
Where is Iaijutsu Focus to be found? I've never heard of it except in passing, and have no idea what it does.

High Will save, huh. I guess I could do that; doesn't make him too powerful, and sort of fits the theme. Will edit that in.

Morph Bark
2011-10-17, 07:46 AM
Iaijutsu Focus is in Oriental Adventures.

Zeta Kai
2011-10-17, 08:47 AM
A potential capstone: go the other way, and give them the ability to auto-succeed on a natural 20. Other possibility is to allow them to Take 20 without time increase for any check that'd ordinarily take only a full-round action or less.

Seconded. I had the same idea myself.

Also, I'd say that this class should gain proficiency in ALL weapons & armor. Proficiency is something that WotC was always very stingy about for some reason, but it just about never is an issue at the table. I can't think of a scenario in which proficiency with a weapon can be unbalancing, & it's a nice little bonus for a class that isn't all about the battlefield. It's also thematically appropriate, & would help make this a more attractive dip, if nothing else.

Lastly, nice class; I like it. Yet another class that's better than the Truenamer at its own game without even trying.

Seerow
2011-10-17, 08:51 AM
Please tell me this is intended to be a strong NPC class.

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-17, 05:13 PM
Of course, the skill is in pretty much the only book I don't own. Could someone give me a summary of what Iaijutsu Focus does?

He already has proficiency in all simple and martial weapons; were you suggesting I give him all Exotic as well, Zeta Kai? Because that's a little crazy. As for armor, he gets light armor and shields, which makes sense for a class that isn't supposed to be on the front line. If people want, I can give him medium/heavy proficiency, but I think I'll leave out tower shields; it doesn't fit the class.

This leads to another interesting question: people want him to be a combat class from what I'm seeing. Should he have full BAB?

Seerow, this is intended as a full class usable as a PC; a less combat-focused Rogue, sort of. Actually, that leads to another question: should he get Trapfinding as the Rogue ability? I was contemplating giving it to him at level 2.

And how does this sound for a capstone:

Perfectly Skilled: A handyman is so skilled by level 20 that he may take 10 on any skill check, even when threatened or under duress. Furthermore, he automatically succeeds on any skill check on a roll of a natural 20.

Thanks for all the positive feedback on the class. Please keep the suggestions coming! :smallbiggrin:

Morph Bark
2011-10-17, 05:20 PM
When you draw a weapon and immediately attack with it right after, you may make a Iaijutsu Focus check for the first attack with that weapon. You deal extra damage based on the result (1d6 if the result is 10, 1d6 more for every 5 higher, capped at 9d6 at a result of 50). Only works against flat-footed targets however, but it is not precision damage, it's simply extra damage.

Other non-Core skills include Martial Lore, Truespeak and Autohypnosis. Besides that the only books I know of that add extra skills are campaign setting-specific ones (well, just Rokugan that I know of, but there are likely more).

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-17, 05:43 PM
Of course, the skill is in pretty much the only book I don't own. Could someone give me a summary of what Iaijutsu Focus does?

He already has proficiency in all simple and martial weapons; were you suggesting I give him all Exotic as well, Zeta Kai? Because that's a little crazy. As for armor, he gets light armor and shields, which makes sense for a class that isn't supposed to be on the front line. If people want, I can give him medium/heavy proficiency, but I think I'll leave out tower shields; it doesn't fit the class.


Think of proficiencies like skills, or like Right Tool for the Job. He can make any weapon work for him the way its supposed to.



This leads to another interesting question: people want him to be a combat class from what I'm seeing. Should he have full BAB?


No.



Seerow, this is intended as a full class usable as a PC; a less combat-focused Rogue, sort of. Actually, that leads to another question: should he get Trapfinding as the Rogue ability? I was contemplating giving it to him at level 2.


Every. Single. Class. That WotC has ever published that had Disable Device as a class skill also had Trapfinding as a class feature. They go pretty much hand in hand.



And how does this sound for a capstone:

Perfectly Skilled: A handyman is so skilled by level 20 that he may take 10 on any skill check, even when threatened or under duress. Furthermore, he automatically succeeds on any skill check on a roll of a natural 20.

Thanks for all the positive feedback on the class. Please keep the suggestions coming! :smallbiggrin:

No way! This is level 20! We're starting to get into EPIC skill challenges! Wizards have been chain-gating solars for 3 levels now, the barbarian gets +8 to his Strength and Con 5 times a day and the rogue took his first 1 level dip because he got absolutely nothing! (Rogue 20 sucks!)

I say he should be able to take 15 on a skill check!

Andion Isurand
2011-10-17, 06:01 PM
For the capstone... How about taking a 12 on skill checks, but making sure that auto-success only happens when you roll a natural 20, and not when you take a 20

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-17, 06:03 PM
OK, added in all armor at level 1, and added all Exotic proficiencies under Right Tool For The Job (I'm going to make you earn that one; at low levels is too dipable, and I want a class worth going all the way in).

Added Trapfinding at 2nd level.

I still have 4 dead levels (6th, 10th, 14th, 18th). Suggestions?

And I'll put some more thought into the capstone. I wanted a real kicker, something worth 20 levels to get. Even my original idea was a little weak. Take 15 is NeoSeraphi's suggestion. How exactly would that work? Anyone have any other ideas to add?

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-17, 06:06 PM
Suggestions for dead levels:

Hide in Plain Sight!

byaku rai
2011-10-17, 06:13 PM
First off, this is a very unique class. That's not a bad thing at all. Just a couple of things to consider:

A) Iaijutsu focus is already pretty easy to abuse with quick draw stuff. And with Skilled (depending on what type of bonus that is; you should look at that), it's entirely possible to have +100 to that particular skill by level 20 (+23 ranks, +40 Skilled, +40 item). I'm not sure how many d6s that translates to, but my DM sense is telling me it's not a number I want thrown at my pet monsters.

B) Use Magic Device. Need I say more?

This class, handled correctly, has the potential to be /much/ better than a Rogue.

... I'd remove the good Fort save and stick in Evasion/Improved Evasion, personally, but whatever works for you.

EDIT: For the capstone, let him take 20 on anything as a full-round action, or even a standard action if you're feeling ambitious. If that seems too OP, just look at a couple of 9th level spells, or even the ToB 9th level maneuvers.

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-17, 06:37 PM
OK, most important thing first: byaku rai, your avatar scares the !@#$ outta me. No seriously, that thing is creepy.

...I love it! :smallbiggrin:


First off, this is a very unique class. That's not a bad thing at all. Just a couple of things to consider:

A) Iaijutsu focus is already pretty easy to abuse with quick draw stuff. And with Skilled (depending on what type of bonus that is; you should look at that), it's entirely possible to have +100 to that particular skill by level 20 (+23 ranks, +40 Skilled, +40 item). I'm not sure how many d6s that translates to, but my DM sense is telling me it's not a number I want thrown at my pet monsters.

B) Use Magic Device. Need I say more?

This class, handled correctly, has the potential to be /much/ better than a Rogue.

... I'd remove the good Fort save and stick in Evasion/Improved Evasion, personally, but whatever works for you.

EDIT: For the capstone, let him take 20 on anything as a full-round action, or even a standard action if you're feeling ambitious. If that seems too OP, just look at a couple of 9th level spells, or even the ToB 9th level maneuvers.

Firstly: according to Morph Bark, Iaijutsu damage is capped at 9d6. If it isn't let me know.

As for Use Magic Device, it's a sadly neglected skill anyways. If you want to use it to your heart's content, be my guest.
__________

Perfectly Skilled: A handyman has perfected his skill. He can take 10 as a move action, or take 20 as a full round action, and he can do so when threatened or distracted. Doing so does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Furthermore, he may do so with no chance of failure, but doing so wears him out; after taking 20 with no chance of failure, he becomes fatigued for 1 minute, and cannot take 20 without a chance of failure again until he's no longer fatigued (this includes being fatigued or exhausted from other sources, such as a spell; he has to be in peak condition to take 20 without failure). Taking 20 with no chance of failure as a full round action provokes attacks of opportunity.
__________

I don't know, too much?

Othesemo
2011-10-17, 06:47 PM
Perfectly Skilled: A handyman has perfected his skill. He can take 10 as a move action, or take 20 as a full round action, and he can do so when threatened or distracted.

Furthermore, he may do so with no chance of failure, but doing so wears him out; after taking 20 with no chance of failure, he becomes fatigued for 1 minute, and cannot take 20 without a chance of failure again until he's no longer fatigued (this includes being fatigued or exhausted from other sources, such as a spell; he has to be in peak condition to take 20 without failure).


I love the class, and this seems like a good 20th level ability. I suppose that you should mention if using this ability provokes an AoO, but other than that this seems great.

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-17, 06:55 PM
I love the class, and this seems like a good 20th level ability. I suppose that you should mention if using this ability provokes an AoO, but other than that this seems great.

It doesn't provoke AoOs unless you're doing a no-fail take 20.

The motion is nominated. Anyone second the capstone?

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-17, 07:21 PM
It doesn't provoke AoOs unless you're doing a no-fail take 20.

The motion is nominated. Anyone second the capstone?

I second it!

Qwertystop
2011-10-17, 07:27 PM
It doesn't provoke AoOs unless you're doing a no-fail take 20.

The motion is nominated. Anyone second the capstone?

I'm the second to second it!

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-17, 07:34 PM
The motion has passed! Updated the capstone. Also added the suggested abilities for dead levels. I'm only lacking the halfway ability now. There's a feat I know of, but can't find, that lets you treat every skill as trained, even if you have no ranks in it (thus letting him add his Skilled Bonus to every skill). I was going to give him that, but I can't find it to put the name down. Any help? :smallfrown:

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-17, 10:20 PM
:biggrin: OK, found the feat I was looking for. The class is now finished! :biggrin:

MesiDoomstalker
2011-10-17, 11:52 PM
Ok, I'd like to point out, besides pumping Iajutsu Focus and UMD to levels where you have small chances of failure earlier (normally you have to be 10+ to reliably use those skills) Skilled is pretty pointless. With 12 ranks per level, if taken at first, even with a Int of 8, you can put at least one rank in every class and thus gain Skilled bonus. Advance a few more levels and your modifier is going to be so dang high that the only thing you aren't hitting on a 1 is epic skill uses.

Any given skill example for a 5th levle Handyman:

+0 (ability mod)+9 (ranks)+ (10 Skilled)+ 3 (Skill Focus)=+22
Take ten and you can hit 32 reliably. This is where other classes are at 10th. Now lets look at 10th.

+0 (ability mod)+13 (ranks)+ (20 Skilled)+ 3 (Skill Focus)=+36
40 DC is the creme of the crop for non-epic skill usages. And you only fail those 15% of the time (even less if you have any kind of stat bonus). After that, it becomes redudant unless you make a clause that you can do Epic usages pre-epic.

Now, don't get me wrong, its a cool ability. It just becomes redudant at a certain point. It might work to lessen the bonus or stagger it out. Or cap it based on ranks (so you don't have massive boosts on skills you've only spent 1 rank in).

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-18, 12:18 AM
You make a valid point: Epic DC clause added to the Skilled ability description (honestly, I thought I had already put one there). And 12+Int mod isn't too many; I use it in triclass gestalts all the time (I give bonus skillpoints in gestalt; pick the highest class that gives skillpoints, then add 2 to that base for each additional class. Thus, Rogue/Wizard would get 10+Int mod per level, and Rogue/Wizard/Sorcerer would get 12+Int mod.).

Zeta Kai
2011-10-18, 10:05 AM
He already has proficiency in all simple and martial weapons; were you suggesting I give him all Exotic as well, Zeta Kai? Because that's a little crazy.

What's so crazy about it? What's on the exotic weapon list that's so damn scary? Mechanically, none of them are that interesting.

You can pick up an urgrosh & use it without a penalty? Or a spiked chain? Or a whip? Or a net? Damn, that's just broken. :smallsigh:

Yitzi
2011-10-18, 11:49 AM
The capstone is too powerful. If he can make a skill check and automatically succeed, then he can do epic-level skill uses (and even higher, like winning opposed checks against a high-epic character without the ability, or jumping to the moon) at only level 20.

Unless I'm misunderstanding the "no chance of failure" bit...

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-18, 10:07 PM
I did concede and give them full proficiency with them; I just didn't give it at first level, thus avoiding uberdipability. I didn't want a dipable class, I wanted a class people would go "Wow! I'll take this to level 20!" when they saw it.

For the "no chance of failure" bit, the rules for taking 20 state that when you take 20, treat it as having made the attempt 20 times (meaning you failed 19 times, thus setting off a trap or breaking something delicate while you work with it). I simply gave him the option to take 20 without failing 19 times to get it, and gave him a penalty to get it. The whole point of this class is that yes, he will totally be nailing epic skillchecks early; that's kind of why he exists in the first place. And I'm fairly sure jumping to the moon would be a DC of some-odd thousand, so even this guy will take a while to hit that. Keep in mind, a 20 on a skillcheck is not autosuccess, it just means you did the best you could.

Yitzi
2011-10-18, 10:28 PM
I did concede and give them full proficiency with them; I just didn't give it at first level, thus avoiding uberdipability. I didn't want a dipable class, I wanted a class people would go "Wow! I'll take this to level 20!" when they saw it.

For the "no chance of failure" bit, the rules for taking 20 state that when you take 20, treat it as having made the attempt 20 times (meaning you failed 19 times, thus setting off a trap or breaking something delicate while you work with it). I simply gave him the option to take 20 without failing 19 times to get it, and gave him a penalty to get it.

Ah. So in that case, you probably should phrase the ability as follows:



Perfectly Skilled: By 20th level, a handyman has perfected his skill. He can take 10 as a move action, or take 20 as a full round action, and he can do so when threatened or distracted. Doing so does not provoke an attack of opportunity. He still may not take 20 in this manner if the skill being attempted carries penalties for failure.

Alternatively, he may take 20 even if the skill being attempted carries penalties for failure, but doing so wears him out; after taking 20 in this manner, he becomes fatigued for 1 minute, and cannot take 20 for such a skill again until he's no longer fatigued (this includes being fatigued or exhausted from other sources, such as a spell; he has to be in peak condition to take 20 when there are penalties for failure). Taking 20 in this manner is a full round action provokes attacks of opportunity.


It's not that he has no chance of failure, it's that he doesn't have to worry about penalties for failure.

You also should probably make it so that the described time is a minimum (i.e. if the skill would normally take longer it takes him that long.) After all, we don't want him to do 8 hours of work in 1 round...some things are too ridiculous even for a class-specialty capstone.


The whole point of this class is that yes, he will totally be nailing epic skillchecks early

Yes, but as you wrote it it sounded like he could make any DC check (no chance of failure).

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-18, 11:09 PM
He can still take 20 with no failure chance as a full-round action, Yitzi. And taking 20 has a specific time limit in the books: 20 times the length of time one check using the chosen skill would take. We're waiving that here; you simply succeed. So what you're saying is the time limit is too unspecific?

Yitzi
2011-10-19, 11:57 AM
He can still take 20 with no failure chance as a full-round action, Yitzi.

No he can't. "No failure chance" means that even if the DC is 1000 he has no chance of failure (i.e. will always succeed). What you mean by it might be different, but if you want to be understood by others you should use language that actually says what you want it to say (such as my suggestion, which clearly says that if failure has no consequence except wasted time he can do it as a full-round action that doesn't provoke, and if it has some other consequence he can do it as a full-round action that does provoke.)


And taking 20 has a specific time limit in the books: 20 times the length of time one check using the chosen skill would take. We're waiving that here; you simply succeed. So what you're saying is the time limit is too unspecific?

No, I'm saying that even if you waive the "20 times what one check would take" rule (which is the class feature), it should still take 1 times what one check would take, even if that's longer than a full-round action.

byaku rai
2011-10-19, 12:48 PM
OK, most important thing first: byaku rai, your avatar scares the !@#$ outta me. No seriously, that thing is creepy.

...I love it! :smallbiggrin:


Well thanks. ^^ If you like it that much, you should join the ponythread. Warning: I take no responsibility for loss of normal sanity or gain of ponysanity.



Firstly: according to Morph Bark, Iaijutsu damage is capped at 9d6. If it isn't let me know.

As for Use Magic Device, it's a sadly neglected skill anyways. If you want to use it to your heart's content, be my guest.


1) sorry, didn't have the book on hand. >.< my bad. Still, that lets this class compete with Rogue for damage dealing, and i'm fairly sure iaijutsu focus ignores the immunities which give Rogues so much trouble.

2) Will do. http://i.imgur.com/VXg1U.jpg heh heh heh...

Yitzi
2011-10-19, 02:08 PM
2) Will do. http://i.imgur.com/VXg1U.jpg heh heh heh...

Indeed. Properly used, UMD can be quite dangerous.

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-19, 07:16 PM
No he can't. "No failure chance" means that even if the DC is 1000 he has no chance of failure (i.e. will always succeed). What you mean by it might be different, but if you want to be understood by others you should use language that actually says what you want it to say (such as my suggestion, which clearly says that if failure has no consequence except wasted time he can do it as a full-round action that doesn't provoke, and if it has some other consequence he can do it as a full-round action that does provoke.)

No, I'm saying that even if you waive the "20 times what one check would take" rule (which is the class feature), it should still take 1 times what one check would take, even if that's longer than a full-round action.

OK, I can see your point here. I do want him to be faster than others at skill checks though. Hmm. Any suggestions as to how to balance the two? Maybe any skill check that can be done in one minute or less as one round? Less game breaking, still makes him super fast, and avoids crafting cheese.

Yitzi
2011-10-22, 09:10 PM
OK, I can see your point here. I do want him to be faster than others at skill checks though. Hmm. Any suggestions as to how to balance the two? Maybe any skill check that can be done in one minute or less as one round? Less game breaking, still makes him super fast, and avoids crafting cheese.

That's still pretty impressive for things like Diplomacy. I'd say (as a separate ability unrelated to taking 10 or 20) allow him to reduce the time by a chosen number of rounds (down to a minimum of 1 move action), but he takes a -1 penalty for each round it's reduced. So if it's an easy check, he can reduce it substantially, but harder ones will take him close to full time.

Kazyan
2011-10-22, 09:26 PM
Optimiziation: Have a handyman take a level inBro (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216305). The other character now has a lot of the skill check goodness of a Handyman, and other class levels, too.

Yitzi
2011-10-24, 11:02 PM
Optimiziation: Have a handyman take a level inBro (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216305). The other character now has a lot of the skill check goodness of a Handyman, and other class levels, too.

Not that much; all he gets is the massive range of skills. He does not get any of the class abilities.