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SmileyFaceOfRom
2011-10-17, 11:00 AM
This is my attempt at slightly nerfing the Wizard. Let me know what you guys think!


In this class, I make reference to base Intelligence modifier, and effective Intelligence modifier.

Your base Intelligence is the intelligence you have when there are no buffs upon you. Pretend you're stark naked and have no spells currently active. This affects your bonus spells.
You effective Intelligence is your Intelligence with any bonuses from any source at all, whether it's a spell, an item or something else. This affects your spell DC's



The Sage
Abilities: Intelligence is the most important thing, as it determines the bonus spells and DC's of the spells he casts. Constitution increases his hit points, which are vital if the Path of the Bloody is taken. Dexterity increases his AC, which means he takes less hits.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d4
Starting Age: As Wizard.
Starting Gold: As Wizard.

Class Skills
The Sages’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (all, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis).

Skill Points at First Level: (3 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 3 + Int modifier

{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fortitude|Reflex|Will|Special |0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th

1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Arcane Bond, Thematic Casting|3|1|—|—|—|—|—|—

2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3|-|4|2|—|—|—|—|—|—

3rd|+1|+1|+1|+3|Minor Arcane Learning|4|3|—|—|—|—|—|—

4th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Cantrips|4*|4|1|—|—|—|—|—

5th|+2|+1|+1|+4|-|4*|4|2|—|—|—|—|—

6th|+3|+2|+2|+5|Thematic Casting|4*|4|3|-|—|—|—|—

7th|+3|+2|+2|+5|-|4*|4|4|1|—|—|—|—

8th|+4|+2|+2|+6|Lesser Arcane Learning|4*|4|4|2|-|—|—|—

9th|+4|+3|+3|+6|-|4*|4|4|3|-|—|—|—

10th|+5|+3|+3|+7|-|4*|4|4|4|1|-|—|—

11th|+5|+3|+3|+7|Thematic Casting|4*|4|4|4|2|-|—|—

12th|+6/+1|+4|+4|+8|-|4*|4|4|4|3|-|-|—

13th|+6/+1|+4|+4|+8|Major Arcane Learning|4*|4|4|4|4|1|-|—

14th|+7/+2|+4|+4|+9|-|4*|4|4|4|4|2|-|-

15th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+9|-|4*|4|4|4|4|3|-|-

16th|+8/+3|+5|+5|+10|Thematic Casting|4*|4|4|4|4|4|1|-

17th|+8/+3|+5|+5|+10|-|4*|4|4|4|4|4|2|-

18th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+11|Greater Arcane Learning|4*|4|4|4|4|4|3|-

19th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+11|-|4*|4|4|4|4|4|4|1

20th|+10/+5|+6|+6|+12|Philosopher's Stone|4*|4|4|4|4|4|4|2

[/table]

Spellcasting: A sage can prepared a number of spells per day as shown above. In addition, a sage gains a number of bonus spells equal to his base Intelligence bonus. He must have a base Intelligence of at least 10+spell level to cast a spell, and his spell's save DC's are equal to 10 + effective Int. bonus + spell level. The sage draws his spell list from the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list.

The sage begins play with 4+base Int. bonus cantrips and 2+base Int. bonus 1st level spells in his spellbook. At 4th and every third level after, he adds a number of spells equal to 3 + base Int. mod to his spellbook. These spells may be of any level he is able to cast. He can also attempt to copy spells from other Sage's scrolls. It must be of a level he can cast, and it must be specifically from a scroll of a member of this class. He cannot copy spells from spellbooks, regardless of class.

A sage may know any number of spells. He must have 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep at any point since the last time he prepared spells, and he must prepare his spells at dawn (6:00 am). Regardless of how many hours of sleep a sage gains, he may never prepare spells at a time other than dawn.

Arcane Bond: At 1st level, sages form a powerful bond with an object or a creature. This bond can take one of two forms: an animal familiar or a bonded object. An animal familiar is a magical pet that enhances the sage's skills and senses and can aid him in magic, while a bonded object is an item a sage can use to cast additional spells and to serve as a magical item. Once a sage makes this choice, it is permanent and cannot be changed. Animal familiars follow the standard rules as per Wizards, while bonded objects are described below.

Sages who select a bonded object begin play with one at no cost. Objects that are the subject of an arcane bond must fall into one of the following categories: amulet, ring, staff, wand or weapon. These objects are always masterwork quality. Weapons acquired at 1st level are not made of any special material. If the object is an amulet or ring, it must be worn to have effect, while staves, wands, and weapons must be wielded. If a sage attempts to cast a spell without his bonded object worn or in hand, he must make a concentration check or lose the spell. The DC for this check is equal to 20 + the spell's level. If the object is a ring or amulet, it occupies the ring or neck slot accordingly.

A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the sage has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared. This spell is treated like any other spell cast by the sage, including casting time, duration, and other effects dependent on the sage's level. This spell cannot be modified by metamagic feats or other abilities.

A sage can add additional magic abilities to his bonded object as if he has the required Item Creation Feats and if he meets the level prerequisites of the feat. For example, a sage with a bonded dagger must be at least 5th level to add magic abilities to the dagger. If the bonded object is a wand, it loses its wand abilities when its last charge is consumed, but it is not destroyed and it retains all of its bonded object properties and can be used to craft a new wand. The magic properties of a bonded object, including any magic abilities added to the object, only function for the sage who owns it. If a bonded object's owner dies, or the item is replaced, the object reverts to being an ordinary masterwork item of the appropriate type.

If a bonded object is damaged, it is restored to full hit points the next time the sage prepares his spells. If the object of an arcane bond is lost or destroyed, it can be replaced after 1 week in a special ritual that costs 200 gp per sage level plus the cost of the masterwork item. This ritual takes 8 hours to complete. Items replaced in this way do not possess any of the additional enchantments of the previous bonded item. A sage can designate an existing magic item as his bonded item. This functions in the same way as replacing a lost or destroyed item except that the new magic item retains its abilities while gaining the benefits and drawbacks of becoming a bonded item.

Thematic Casting: Every sage learns his magic in a different way. Some are trained in armies, taught to fight on the front-line with fighters and barbarians. Some are raised in the wilderness, where strange magics and are just a part of being a shaman. Yet others train in academies, hearing the history of magic and learning old ways to use their power. At 1st level and every 5 levels after, you may select a Path. Every time you select a path, you learn the next Form in it. (So at level 1 you could choose Path of War and learn Form 1, then at 6th level choose it again to learn Form 2, or choose a different Path to gain the first form for that Path.)

If you ever choose Path of the Bloody, you PERMANENTLY lose the ability to cast 6th level spells or higher.

Paths

Path of the Bloody

Battlemage (EX): You have sacrificed diligent studying of the magical arts for more practical applications of your magic: killing.

Form 1 grants the sage proficiency with 1 martial weapon of his choice. In addition, he gains the feats Improved Toughness and Combat Casting if he doesn't already have them and even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites. From this point on, all future sage hit die become d8's instead of d4's and you gain the BAB of a fighter with one limitation: you still only gain two attacks max. (This means that at 20th level, you would have +20/+15, not +20/+15/+10/+5)
Form 2 allows the sage to ignore the arcane spell failure chance of light armor. He also gains the feats Improved Toughness and Eschew Materials.
Form 3 allows the sage to ignore the arcane spell failure chance of all shields, excluding tower shields. He also gains the feats Improved Toughness and Weapon Focus with the martial weapon he chose at Form 1.
Form 4 allows the sage to ignore the arcane spell failure chance of medium armor. In addition, he gains the feats Improved Toughness and Weapon Specialization with the martial weapon he chose at Form 1.
.


Path of the Shaman

Shamanistic Fetish (Ex): You have learned the ways of temporary but draining infusions.

Form 1 allows that sage to perform minor infusions, gaining the power to deposit magical power into unstable fetishes to give benefits. As a ritual taking 10 minutes, the sage may expend a 0 level spell in order to infuse an item with the spell. The spell chosen cannot deal damage or it any other way harm any potential bearer of the item. This is a constant effect that lasts for 1 day and grants the spells effects to the bearer of the item. The item takes up a slot normal for its type and size.
Form 2 doubles the duration of the sages infusions to 2 days and lets him infuse spells of up to 1st level.
Form 3 expands the sages powers of infusion. He may now infuse spells of up to 2nd level and they now last 3 days.
Form 4 grants the sage the power to, once a day, infuse an item with a number of spells equal to his base Constitution mod (minimum +2). These spells are not expended from his prepared spells, and do not require the typical 10 minutes casting time, taking only a full round action instead.



Path of the Studious

Academic Sage (Ex): Some sages lose themselves in books, eventually stumbling upon the magic rites of old.

Form 1 reveals to the sage the rituals of old: a number of times per day equal to the sages base Constitution mod, he may increase the casting time of any full round or standard action to 2 rounds in order to treat it as if it was cast at +2 CL higher. This applies only to spells up to 2nd level. While performing a ritual, the sage takes a -10 to his Spot, Listen and Hide checks.
Form 2 teaches the value of patience. The sage may choose to extend the ritual an extra 2 rounds (to a total of 4 rounds) to multiple the duration by 2.
Form 3 allows the sage to ritualize spells of up to 3rd level. In addition, he learns 2 new spells. These 2 spells may be of any level, so long as the sage can cast them.
Form 4 shows how the sage has reached the pinnacle of his art. By choosing to increase the casting time to 8 rounds, he may extend the duration to Concentration+1 round. If the spell doesn't normally have a duration, or is instantaneous, the spell repeats itself. If he does this however, he takes 1d6 non-lethal damage per level of the spell when he ceases concentration on the spell.




Minor Arcane Learning (Su): The sage may select one of the effects shown below.

Strange Eyes: The sages eyes permanently are a different color, shape, etc. This has no mechanical effect.
Everitem: The sage permanently gains a small mundane item. This item can be a piece of chalk, a small pipe, an inkpen, or anything else, but never more than one. This item never runs out. If chalk, the stick is never used up. If a pipe, it never runs out of pipeweed and can be lit/doused with a word. Any item can be used in this way, but the item cannot be something that provides a benefit for the bearer such as a magic ring, a potion, Alchemist's Fire, etc. The DM should ensure the item is in the same vein as the examples listed above.
Astrological Knowledge: Having practiced the art of astrology for many years, the sage may determine the exact date (In the format of month/day/year) by studying the night sky for 5 minutes.
Alchemical Passion: The skill Profession (Alchemist) is always a class skill for the sage, regardless of his current class.

Cantrips:Beginning at 4th level, the sage has acquired such a mastery of these basic spells that they are not expended when cast.

Lesser Arcane Learning (Su): The sage selects one of the abilities listed below.

Advice of the Sage: Three times per day, the sage may give expert knowledge to his allies, granting them a bonus to attack. As a swift action, the sage may make a DC15 effective Intelligence check. If he makes this check, he may select one ally withing 40 feet. That ally gains a +1 bonus to attack on his next turn. if he doesn't attack on his next turn, the bonus is lost.
Alchemical Wonders: Twice per day, the sage may quickly mix a crude but effective contact poison. This requires a DC15 Profession (Alchemist) check. If he succeeds, he may throw a small vial of poisonous liquid at an enemy within 30 feet. This is a standard action, requires the sage to actually possess a (at least one) vial and actually throw it, and provokes AoO. The poison does 1d6 damage and causes mild skin irritation for 1d3 rounds. During those rounds, the target has a -1 to attack rolls.
Gilded Bird: The sage may create a diminutive and delicately crafted bird. Doing so costs 100 gold, and he may only have one at any given time. Crafting the bird takes 2 days and a Craft (Metalworking) check equal to DC10. If he fails, the materials and time are wasted. If he succeeds, he gains a diminutive golden bird.

Gilded Bird
Size/Type: Diminutive Construct
Hit Dice: 1d4-3 (1 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: Fly 30 ft (Perfect) (6 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+6 size), touch 10, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: -/-
Attack: -
Space/Reach: 1/2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Construct traits, damage reduction 5/magic
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +6, Will +0
Abilities: Str 1, Dex 10, Con —, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 8
Skills: Hide +8, Move Silently +12, Perform (Oratory) +4
Challenge Rating: 0


Gilded Birds are beautifully crafted constructs. Possessed of no intelligence of their own, they are amazingly functional vessels for sages with a taste for spying.

Powered by Gears: A Gilded Bird must be wound using a key on its back. Winding a Gilded Bird as a move action powers it for 4 rounds, winding it as a standard action powers it for 1 minute, and winding it as a full round action powers it for 1 hour. A Gilded Bird may only ever be wound for a maximum time of 4 hours.

Assume Direct Control (Ex): The sage may see through the eyes of the Gilded Bird. As a full round action, you may ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL of the Gilded Bird, essentially becoming it. You may direct it's movements, and may make Perform (Oratory) skill checks (using the Gilded Bird's Perform (Oratory) ranks in place of your own of your own) instead of Bluff checks to convince any watcher that you are merely a normal bird. You use your own Listen and Spot skills to notice details and listen to conversations. Each round that you are in Direct Control of the Gilded Bird, your body is considered flat-footed. If you take damage from an attack, your control is immediately broken and cannot be resumed for 1d4 rounds.

Expedient Messenger (Ex): The sage may expend a Message spell while holding the bird to enable the bird to carry and repeat the message to a target of your choice. The bird always knows the location of your message's target, but only if he is on the same plane and you have met him previously. The message is held by the bird until discharged, or until the bird is unwound. Once the bird finds its target, it repeats the message in your voice. It then waits for a response, which may consist of up to 30 words, then immediately fly's back to you.


Major Arcane Learning (Su): The sage may select one of the following abilities.
Unequivalent Exchange (Ex): The sage has done the impossible: created something from nothing. Once per week, he may extend the duration of any Summon Monster spell to permanent. The spell slot that held the Summon Monster spell cannot be used until this effect is ended. He may dismiss this effect as a free action. You may only have one permanent Summon Monster from this effect at any time.

Malleable Life (Ex): The sage has learned the art of empowering homuncului. He may use a homunculus as the subject of his Shamanistic Fetish, with the homunculus gaining the effects of the spells for the normal duration.

More ideas for these are welcome.

Greater Arcane Learning (Su): Looking for any good ideas, as I seem to have slowly run out.

Philosopher's Stone: At 20th level, the sage has unlocked the secrets of his art. He chooses one of the following abilities. Once made, this choice cannot be changed.

He may creates a Elixer of Life, as described below.
He may turn any unattended object into an equal amount of gold with a standard action at will. This object can weigh no more than 5 lbs., must be non-magical, and cannot have a value of more than 500 gold in order to be transmuted.


Elixir of Life: The receives an Elixir of Life for free upon selecting this option (which can only be drunk by him).
The Elixir of Life has two effects. If a living creature drinks it, he stops aging- he no longer takes penalties to his ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that he has already taken, however, remain in place and bonuses still accrue. His maximum age is now considered infinite. He also becomes immune to non-magical diseases and poisons, and gains Damage Reduction 10/Magic and Fasthealing 2 as a side-effect of the process.
If the Elixir is applied instead to a dead creature, it returns to life 1d6x10 minutes later as though affected by a True Resurrection spell.
It is possible to create more Elixir's of Life, but doing so requires a month of work, 25,000 gold and 5,000 experience points.

Morph Bark
2011-10-17, 11:10 AM
In this class, I make reference to base Intelligence modifier, and effective Intelligence modifier.

Your base Intelligence modifier is the intelligence you assign your character at generation, plus any ability points you place in it that are gained every 4 levels. This affects your bonus spells.
You effective Intelligence modifier is your Intelligence with any bonuses that are either temporary, or are permanent as long as a certain effect is in place (Such as Fox's Cunning or any magical items). This affects your spell DC's


You seem to be confusing your Intelligence score with your Intelligence bonus here. An Intelligence score of 12 gives an Intelligence bonus of +1, for instance.

I get what you mean to say though, but this is no different from the standard wizard or any other spellcasting class, so you needn't even have had to include this part, as all the relevant bits are already under Spellcasting.

Grod_The_Giant
2011-10-17, 11:53 AM
You seem to be confusing your Intelligence score with your Intelligence bonus here. An Intelligence score of 12 gives an Intelligence bonus of +1, for instance.

I get what you mean to say though, but this is no different from the standard wizard or any other spellcasting class, so you needn't even have had to include this part, as all the relevant bits are already under Spellcasting.

I believe he wants to distinguish between a buffed intelligence score and a non-buffed one, so that the sage gets fewer spells per day.

I like the intention, but I don't think you accomplished it. You made it slightly harder to get new spells by banning copying from scrolls, but greatly increased the number of spells you get from leveling, from 2/level to 3+Int. modifier/level. A sage is, if anything, going to know more spells than the wizard, which will only make him more lethal.

Apart from that, the class features are, no offense, terrible. I understand you don't want strong powers, but...

The Path of the Bloody is useless. I understand that it's intended for gish spells, but you're sacrificing your top 3 levels of spellcasting for 3 feats, two of which are quite bad. Taking additional forms gives you the ability to ignore a limited amount of ASF, but your low hit die and BAB will still keep you from being an effective gish.
Shamanistic fetish isn't as bad, but is kind of weak, especially since the effect lasts, at best, three times the casting time. You'd be better off just casting the buff.
Academic Sage is also kind of crappy. Most of the point of casting spells at a higher caster level is to overcome spell resistance, do more damage, have them last longer, and so on. Taking so long to cast the spell in the first place kind of negates the benefits, especially if you can only use low-level spells.
Cantrips is good and flavorful without being overpowered. I usually houserule a similar effect into my games.
Minor Arcane Learning has no gameplay effects whatsoever, which I guess was your goal. However, it's all the kind of stuff that a lot of DMs would allow without needing a class feature.
Gilded Bird is neat-sounding, if useless, but the other two Lesser Arcane Learning abilities are completely subsumed by spells.
Unequivilant Exchange should never, ever be used. You're giving up the entire point of your class to gain a weak summon?
I don't know about the deathless template, but the other effect of the Philosopher's Stone ability needs some limits, or else you'll wind up with "I turn this mountain into gold!" Three times/day for an otherwise weak ability is also kind of silly at 20th level. I like the flavor, though.


Basically, reducing the spells known is the only way to de-power the wizard, short of overhauling the entire spellcasting system. It doesn't help all that much if his class abilities are weak; he'll just never use them.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-17, 12:35 PM
I believe he wants to distinguish between a buffed intelligence score and a non-buffed one, so that the sage gets fewer spells per day.

I like the intention, but I don't think you accomplished it. You made it slightly harder to get new spells by banning copying from scrolls, but greatly increased the number of spells you get from leveling, from 2/level to 3+Int. modifier/level. A sage is, if anything, going to know more spells than the wizard, which will only make him more lethal.


Read it again. It's 3+Int mod at 4th level and every 3 levels after 4th.

Grod_The_Giant
2011-10-17, 01:52 PM
Read it again. It's 3+Int mod at 4th level and every 3 levels after 4th.

Whoops. I apologize, SmileyFaceOfRom. It's not as bad as I thought. Being able to copy other wizard spells from spellbooks is still a big problem, though- that's where the wizard gets his real versatility.

SmileyFaceOfRom
2011-10-17, 04:15 PM
@ Morph Bark:

In this class, I make reference to base Intelligence modifier, and effective Intelligence modifier.

Your base Intelligence modifier is the intelligence you assign your character at generation, plus any ability points you place in it that are gained every 4 levels. This affects your bonus spells.
Your effective Intelligence modifier is your Intelligence with any bonuses that are either temporary, or are permanent as long as a certain effect is in place (Such as Fox's Cunning or any magical items). This affects your spell DC's

Think of it like this: you have a character level, which is how many class levels you have (Wizard, Rogue, etc.).
Then there is your effective character level, which is your class levels plus any racial HD and level adjustment. I just applied this concept to ability scores.

My way, you very well might have an Intelligence of 38 with all kinds of crazy stat-boosting items, but that only increases the DC's of the spells you cast. That is your effective Intelligence score. The only Intelligence that affects your bonus spells is the one you have when you are completely stark naked. I refer to that are your base intelligence.

As Grod clarified, I'm talking about the buffed and non-buffed intelligence.

As for me saying modifier instead of bonus... I've got nothing :smalltongue:

@ Grod_the_Giant:

Whoops. I apologize, SmileyFaceOfRom. It's not as bad as I thought. Being able to copy other wizard spells from spellbooks is still a big problem, though- that's where the wizard gets his real versatility.
Not a problem Grod, but the Sage can still copy spells. It's just he HAS to do so from a Sage. Which isn't really a problem, as this is meant to replace Wizards/Sorcerer's in our campaign.


The Path of the Bloody is useless. I understand that it's intended for gish spells, but you're sacrificing your top 3 levels of spellcasting for 3 feats, two of which are quite bad. Taking additional forms gives you the ability to ignore a limited amount of ASF, but your low hit die and BAB will still keep you from being an effective gish.
It's top two levels actually, as you lose 6th and 7th. And 7th is the max. I replaced the two Toughness' with Improved Toughness. Ideally i'd like to give Path of the Bloody the ability to ignore somantic requirements, but I thought that might be a bit too powerful. Perhaps I'll add somthing in that increases your HD to say... d8, and gives you the BAB of a fighter with the exception being you still only get two attacks.



Shamanistic fetish isn't as bad, but is kind of weak, especially since the effect lasts, at best, three times the casting time. You'd be better off just casting the buff.
Increase the duration to 1 day? With respective increases?


Academic Sage is also kind of crappy. Most of the point of casting spells at a higher caster level is to overcome spell resistance, do more damage, have them last longer, and so on. Taking so long to cast the spell in the first place kind of negates the benefits, especially if you can only use low-level spells. I could increase the CL to +2 or +3, but the duration SHOULD be longer than normal... changed the durations to rounds instead of minutes. And upped the level of spells useable by one at each form.

And yes, Minor Arcane Learning is meant to be flavor. Not to mention a piece of chalk that is never used up would probably cost more than a normal piece of chalk. Same with a pipe. Not hundreds of gold, but still. And i've played with people who just don't think of these things to add character to their PCs.


Gilded Bird is neat-sounding, if useless, but the other two Lesser Arcane Learning abilities are completely subsumed by spells.
Reworked it to allow the sage to use it as a spy.


Unequivilant Exchange should never, ever be used. You're giving up the entire point of your class to gain a weak summon?
I know, I know. I removed the level restriction but my worry is about someone using this and getting a permanent Summon for no extra cost. Rewrote so you can only cast spells with 1 full round action or greater to hopefully remove perm. summoning then casting Lightning Bolt.


I don't know about the deathless template, but the other effect of the Philosopher's Stone ability needs some limits, or else you'll wind up with "I turn this mountain into gold!" Three times/day for an otherwise weak ability is also kind of silly at 20th level. I like the flavor, though.
Changed the Deathless template to Lich or Good Lich, and clarified the 'golden touch' rules, making it at will.

Thanks so much for the reviews everyone! Any help is appreciated very much. I hope to test the Sage this friday, but RL may get in the way again :smallfrown:

Hiro Protagonest
2011-10-17, 04:22 PM
Not a problem Grod, but the Sage can still copy spells. It's just he HAS to do so from a Sage. Which isn't really a problem, as this is meant to replace Wizards/Sorcerer's in our campaign.

Uh... he knows that. He was saying the ability to copy spells from another spellbook is the thing that firmly cements it in tier 1.

Plus consider, any sage worth his salt is going to have at least 16 int, and that means the same spells as the wizard, but with two spell-less levels in between.

Also, the capstone is an obvious ripoff of Harry Potter book 1. :smalltongue:

Analysis
2011-10-17, 04:48 PM
Why 3 (an odd number) base skill points per level? In fact, why so few skill points? Since sageness implies knowledge, I would give it either 6 (like beguiler or ranger) or 8 (like scout or rogue) skill points per level.

SmileyFaceOfRom
2011-10-17, 04:49 PM
Ah, my bad. I guess I read that kinda wrong.
And for getting spells, I thought about 1 per level and then Int. mod every third past 4th. Would that be better?

Analysis
2011-10-17, 04:50 PM
Why 3 (an odd number) base skill points per level? In fact, why so few skill points? Since sageness implies knowledge, I would give it either 6 (like beguiler or ranger) or 8 (like scout or rogue) skill points per level.

Othesemo
2011-10-17, 04:56 PM
I actually really like this class. I think that I might replace the wizard class with this in my own campaign (with appropriate tweaking, of course).

SmileyFaceOfRom
2011-10-17, 05:03 PM
Why 3 (an odd number) base skill points per level? In fact, why so few skill points? Since sageness implies knowledge, I would give it either 6 (like beguiler or ranger) or 8 (like scout or rogue) skill points per level.

Arbitrary choice. It's 1 more than the Wizard.

Grod_The_Giant
2011-10-17, 05:27 PM
It's top two levels actually, as you lose 6th and 7th. And 7th is the max.
Apparently I'm illiterate. That's the last time I try to do an in-depth critique right after class :S That alone is going to drive the power well down, possibly all the way into Tier 3.


I replaced the two Toughness' with Improved Toughness. Ideally i'd like to give Path of the Bloody the ability to ignore somantic requirements, but I thought that might be a bit too powerful. Perhaps I'll add somthing in that increases your HD to say... d8, and gives you the BAB of a fighter with the exception being you still only get two attacks.
Better. Boosting the HD to a d8 and the BAB to medium is probably sufficient to make a decent gish, in the vein of the Battle Sorcerer.


Increase the duration to 1 day? With respective increases?
Better. I could do useful stuff with that.


I could increase the CL to +2 or +3, but the duration SHOULD be longer than normal... changed the durations to rounds instead of minutes. And upped the level of spells useable by one at each form.
Maybe increase duration and/or range? I see this as being most useful for preparing buffs, teleportation, scrying, and so on.



I know, I know. I removed the level restriction but my worry is about someone using this and getting a permanent Summon for no extra cost. Rewrote so you can only cast spells with 1 full round action or greater to hopefully remove perm. summoning then casting Lightning Bolt.
I still don't think the tradeoff is worth it, especially given the weakness of a level-delayed summons. How about, instead of keeping you from casting spells, it instead prevents you from refilling the spell slot you used to cast the summon, and restrict it to one "permanent" summon at a time?


Changed the Deathless template to Lich or Good Lich, and clarified the 'golden touch' rules, making it at will.
My concern was more about the ability requiring a non-core source. How about:

Elixir of Life- At 20th level, a sage discovers the Elixir of life. He receives one for free upon leveling up (which can only be drunken by him), and may brew more later, but doing so requires a month of work, 25,000 gold and 5,000 experience points.

The Elixir of Life has two effects. If a living creature drinks it, he stops aging- he no longer takes penalties to his ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that he has already taken, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue. He will not die of old age when his time is up. He also becomes immune to non-magical diseases, poisons, and gains Damage Reduction 10/Magic as a side-effect of the process.

If the Elixir is applied instead to a dead creature, he returns to life 1d6x10 minutes later as though affected by a True Resurrection spell.

SmileyFaceOfRom
2011-10-17, 07:36 PM
Maybe increase duration and/or range? I see this as being most useful for preparing buffs, teleportation, scrying, and so on.
Whoops... what I MEANT to say was casting length, not duration. I changed the casting times, extended duration by x2 and modified Form 4. :smallcool:

Academic Sage (Ex): Some sages lose themselves in books, eventually stumbling upon the magic rites of old.

Form 1 reveals to the sage the rituals of old: a number of times per day equal to the sages base Constitution mod, he may increase the casting time of any full round or standard action to 3 rounds in order to treat it as if it was cast at +2 CL higher. This applies only to spells up to 2nd level. While performing a ritual, the sage takes a -10 to his Spot, Listen and Hide checks.
Form 2 teaches the value of patience. The sage may choose to extend the ritual an extra 3 rounds (to a total of 6 rounds) to multiple the duration by 2.
Form 3 allows the sage to ritualize spells of up to 3rd level. In addition, he learns 2 new spells. These 2 spells may be of any level, so long as the sage can cast them.
Form 4 shows how the sage has reached the pinnacle of his art. By choosing to increase the casting time to 9 rounds, he may extend the duration to Concentration+1 round. If the spell doesn't normally have a duration, or is instantaneous, the spell repeats itself. If he does this however, he takes 1d6 non-lethal damage per level of the spell when he ceases concentration on the spell.




I still don't think the tradeoff is worth it, especially given the weakness of a level-delayed summons. How about, instead of keeping you from casting spells, it instead prevents you from refilling the spell slot you used to cast the summon, and restrict it to one "permanent" summon at a time?

Genius. Done.



Elixir of Life- At 20th level, a sage discovers the Elixir of life. He receives one for free upon leveling up (which can only be drunken by him), and may brew more later, but doing so requires a month of work, 25,000 gold and 5,000 experience points.

The Elixir of Life has two effects. If a living creature drinks it, he stops aging- he no longer takes penalties to his ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that he has already taken, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue. He will not die of old age when his time is up. He also becomes immune to non-magical diseases, poisons, and gains Damage Reduction 10/Magic as a side-effect of the process.

If the Elixir is applied instead to a dead creature, he returns to life 1d6x10 minutes later as though affected by a True Resurrection spell.

This... this... sir, I love you. :smallredface:

In addition, I would love any ideas anyone has for Major and Greater Arcane Learning... my creativity meter is running dry today. :smallfrown:

And thank you very much Othesemo! :smallsmile:

jiriku
2011-10-17, 07:49 PM
The limitation "only from scrolls" is actually a tougher restriction than the limitation "only from spellbooks". Every enemy sage will have all his spells in a spellbook. Most won't have a stash of scrolls containing copies of every spell they know. Copying a spell from an allied sage's spellbook can be extremely cheap. Purchasing a scroll from the sage is more expensive.

SmileyFaceOfRom
2011-10-17, 08:41 PM
The limitation "only from scrolls" is actually a tougher restriction than the limitation "only from spellbooks". Every enemy sage will have all his spells in a spellbook. Most won't have a stash of scrolls containing copies of every spell they know. Copying a spell from an allied sage's spellbook can be extremely cheap. Purchasing a scroll from the sage is more expensive.

I like this, but i'm concerned about a sage not getting enough spells. Assuming Int 17 and additional points also put into intelligence, that's 5 at 1st level, then 6, 6, 6, 7, 7, 7 going through the levels he gains spells at for a total of 44 if my math doesn't fail me. Assuming they gain access to spellbooks, add maybe 80 more, so 124 total? if I remember correctly, the Wizard typically has 70 or so spells, not counting any spellbooks.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-10-17, 09:44 PM
I like this, but i'm concerned about a sage not getting enough spells. Assuming Int 17 and additional points also put into intelligence, that's 5 at 1st level, then 6, 6, 6, 7, 7, 7 going through the levels he gains spells at for a total of 44 if my math doesn't fail me. Assuming they gain access to spellbooks, add maybe 80 more, so 124 total? if I remember correctly, the Wizard typically has 70 or so spells, not counting any spellbooks.

I thought you wanted this to be less flexible than the wizard, which is what makes tier 2 not tier 1.

Also, the typical level 20 PC wizard has 6 from first level, 40 from class levels.

SmileyFaceOfRom
2011-10-18, 04:28 PM
I thought you wanted this to be less flexible than the wizard, which is what makes tier 2 not tier 1.

Also, the typical level 20 PC wizard has 6 from first level, 40 from class levels.

Looking through, the Wizard indeed gets 6 from first, but only 38 from classes for a total of 44... exactly what my class gets.
However, I DO want this to be less flexible... maybe reduce the spells gained every 4th level by 1? That would drop them to 30 by 20th level. Keep in mind however that the max spell slots for any level are 5, assuming a normal PC-level intelligence, so Role Continuity (a GREAT phrase from Realms of Chaos.) might become a problem if the sage has to decide between preparing utility spells or battle spells.
Mostly though, i'm stuck between allow spellbooks only or scrolls only. I have to give it a little more thought before I do anything concrete, as my group has 2 players plus the DM, so I always need to do utility/control in the space of a single adventure, sometimes in the space of a single encounter.

Grod_The_Giant
2011-10-18, 08:53 PM
I wouldn't stress too much- the lack of 8th and 9th level spells and the slower spell progression is going to do a lot to lower the power.

SmileyFaceOfRom
2011-10-18, 11:09 PM
I wouldn't stress too much- the lack of 8th and 9th level spells and the slower spell progression is going to do a lot to lower the power.

After a long-ass day of work, agreed. Changed some info about the Gilded Bird, tidied up its stats with a neat little format and forced the sage to only gain spells from scrolls.

Thanks to everyone who's commented on this class! Feedback helps my creative spirit grow! :smallwink:

I'm still, however, looking for any good ideas or critiques on any of the Arcane Learning abilities.

Elfinor
2011-10-22, 12:51 AM
You may have already looked at it, but there's Pathfinder's Wizard Arcane Discoveries (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/arcane-discoveries) which you can ransack for ideas. I have a couple from a private Wizard homebrew that might sort of fit, but am I right in guessing that you wish for the Arcanas to not directly involve improving spellcasting?That was phrased weirdly...

SmileyFaceOfRom
2011-10-25, 10:26 PM
You may have already looked at it, but there's Pathfinder's Wizard Arcane Discoveries (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/arcane-discoveries) which you can ransack for ideas. I have a couple from a private Wizard homebrew that might sort of fit, but am I right in guessing that you wish for the Arcanas to not directly involve improving spellcasting?That was phrased weirdly...

You would be correct Elfinor. My hope was for this class to remain a spellcasting class but still have some situational abilities. Not to necessarily make him stronger, just develop his character. I hadn't checked out the arcane discoveries, but I hope to later.

Elfinor
2011-10-26, 03:32 AM
That does negate most of mine, as does your Philosopher's Stone class ability and Pathfinder's Arcane Discoveries (the concepts anyway). Master of Artifice was originally spread out over several levels, and provided other benefits - it might be a worthwhile 'path' if you wish to extend the concept. I'm guessing they'll be major/greater levelish. They're also a tad more direct than your abilities, so not sure if you'll like them.

I've put in the few I feel may be appropriate (and somewhat original) and edited them - of course feel free to edit, categorise, cannibalise and/or discard as you see fit.1Hand of Life: You gain Lay on Hands as a Paladin, except that you can heal (or damage undead with) a number of hit points per day equal to your (halved?) Sage level x base INT modifier. You gain (Lesser?) Restoration as a SLA which you may use once per week. In addition to this, you gain Skill Focus (Heal) as a bonus feat.
Requirements: Heal 5 ranks

Death Touch: You gain Inflict Critical Wounds/Slay Living/Enervation as a SLA, useable once (more?) per day as an immediate action or attack of opportunity (you are considered armed for the purposes of making the touch attack only). You may instead choose to expend this ability on anyone who physically touches you (such as with a melee touch attack, unarmed strike or grapple attempt) , with no touch attack roll needed.

Master of Artifice: Add +2 to the Save DC's and caster level of spells cast from scrolls. Once per day you may choose not to use charges when casting a spell (not using an item's ability) of 5th level or lower from a wand, scepter or staff. You gain Skill Focus (Use Magic Device) as a bonus feat. In addition to this, Spellstaff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellstaff.htm) is added to your spell list as a 7th level spell.
Requirements: Use Magic Device 5 ranks and at least one item creation feat1To get nitpicky, there should be a space after the 'Cantrips' colon and your last apostrophe (Elixir's of Life) shouldn't exist. Also, based on Skill descriptions, I was under the impression that Craft (Alchemy) effectively replaces Profession (Alchemist) - so perhaps a different specialty should be considered? Rest looks good.