PDA

View Full Version : Meteor Swarm {re-tool please Critique}



Kenneth
2011-10-17, 05:26 PM
Ok so I know how in 3rd ed Mteor swarm is terrible, not relly much better than a fireball in terms of damage it can put out.. and this coming form what is upposed to be the mother of damaging spells as its 9th level, here is my 'fix' as you can see it is really just what meteor swarm was back in the 2nd ed days with the impact damage form 3rd still there


Meteor Swarm Evocation [Fire]
Level:Sor/Wiz 9
Components:V, S
Casting Time:1 standard action
Range:Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area:Four 40-ft.-radius spreads; see text
Duration:Instantaneous
Saving Throw:None or Reflex half; see text
Spell Resistance:Yes


Meteor swarm is a very powerful and spectacular spell that is similar to fireball in many aspects. When you cast it, four 2-foot-diameter spheres spring from your outstretched hand and streak in straight lines to the spots you select. The meteor spheres leave a fiery trail of sparks.

If you aim a sphere at a specific creature, you may make a ranged touch attack to strike the target with the meteor. Any creature struck by one of these spheres takes 2d8 points of bludgeoning damage (no save) and receives no saving throw against the sphere’s fire damage (see below). If a targeted sphere misses its target, it simply explodes at the nearest corner of the target’s space. You may aim more than one meteor at the same target.

Once a sphere reaches its destination, it explodes in a 40-foot-radius spread, dealing 2d4 points of fire damage per caster level to each creature in the area. If a creature is within the area of more than one sphere, it must save separately against each. (Fire resistance applies to each sphere’s damage individually.)

Mulletmanalive
2011-10-17, 05:44 PM
Assuming it's the one i remember, the 3.0e one was a beast... 120ft radius, ongoing damage in the area and a random chance of being hit by a big hunk of rock...

Actually felt like a meteor swarm.

Your version, well, it barely beats a twinned enlarged acidic fireball if it even manages that, so i'm going to call it not enough.

Ignoring mailman builds and such, magic of this level actually has to alter the course of the battle; I don't expect this o one-shot anything of this sort of CR and it has no secondary effects or area denial

Grod_The_Giant
2011-10-17, 05:51 PM
Why 2d4 per level? Let it be 1d6/level, max 30d6. THAT will cause some pain, especially if you get hit by all four.

Or, better yet, a "the sky is falling!" type deal.

Meteor Swarm
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 10ft/caster level radius burst.
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

All creatures and objects in the area take 1d6/caster level (max 30d6) damage as a hail of meteorites fall to the ground (reflex half). Half of this damage is fire damage, and half is slashing, due to the shrapnel from the meteorite detonation. In addition, there is a 20% chance that a given creature or object will be struck directly by a meteorite, dealing an additional 10d6 bludgeoning damage and knocking them prone. This extra effect cannot be saved against.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-17, 06:00 PM
Why 2d4 per level? Let it be 1d6/level, max 30d6. THAT will cause some pain, especially if you get hit by all four.

(Although I like the idea of a "the sky is falling!" type deal)

Because disintegrate deals 2d6 per level to one creature, and it's just a 6th level spell. So by your logic, at 17th level, a wizard could use a 6th level spell slot to deal 34d6 to one creature, or a 9th level spell slot to deal 17d6 to a whole host of them. I mean, if it's 1d6 per level, it's not really that much better than delayed blast fireball.

Kenneth
2011-10-17, 06:19 PM
its 2d4 because 60d4>30d6


Hmm I guess I could add cool stuff to the meteors

But a 9th level spell SHOULD be better than nay meta magic-ed up spell that ends up being 9th level.


SO now it rains down destriction for a lot and knocks fools PRONE! so here is my Meteor swarm 2.3:)

Meteor Swarm Evocation [Fire]
Level:Sor/Wiz 9
Components:V, S
Casting Time:1 standard action
Range:Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area:Four 40-ft.-radius spreads; see text
Duration:Instantaneous
Saving Throw:None or Reflex half; see text
Spell Resistance:Yes


Meteor swarm is a very powerful and spectacular spell that is similar to fireball in many aspects. When you cast it, four 2-foot-diameter spheres spring from your outstretched hand and streak in straight lines to the spots you select. Any creature in the straight line path of these meteors recieves teh full effect with the benefits of a saving throw. The meteor spheres leave a fiery trail of sparks.

If you aim a sphere at a specific creature, you may make a ranged touch attack to strike the target with the meteor. Any creature struck by one of these spheres takes 3d8 points of Impact damage (no save) and receives no saving throw against the sphere’s fire damage (see below). If a targeted sphere misses its target, it simply explodes at the nearest corner of the target’s space. You may aim more than one meteor at the same target.

Once a sphere reaches its destination, it explodes in a 40-foot-radius spread, dealing 2d4 points of fire damage per caster level to each creature in the area. If a creature is within the area of more than one sphere, it must save separately against each. (Fire resistance applies to each sphere’s damage individually.)

The ground under the area of effect of Meteor Swarm is considered difficult terrain and any target that is damaged is knocked Prone (no save)

Grod_The_Giant
2011-10-17, 06:30 PM
Because disintegrate deals 2d6 per level to one creature, and it's just a 6th level spell. So by your logic, at 17th level, a wizard could use a 6th level spell slot to deal 34d6 to one creature, or a 9th level spell slot to deal 17d6 to a whole host of them. I mean, if it's 1d6 per level, it's not really that much better than delayed blast fireball.

Good point. I'm more concerned with the fact that most players will have a lot more d6s than d4s.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-17, 06:37 PM
Good point. I'm more concerned with the fact that most players will have a lot more d6s than d4s.

You can borrow d4s from everyone at the table if you like. I would just use an online dice ro-...aw, who am I kidding? I have 2 d4s, and I would roll them both 20 times and record the whole thing, because I'm casting a 9th level spell!

bobthe6th
2011-10-17, 07:02 PM
the prone and diffucult terain is nice, but still kinda meh... how about making it work like explosive spell? thrown out of the spell area for falling damage, and proned. would make it a fun room clearer to toss everyone out of a space.

also, how abouts making it deal half bludgeoning/slashing/piercing? would give the envocer a nice way to flip the bird at energy immunity, which at 17+ most enemies have against fire. ballors, red dragons, most devils/deamons/most outsiders in general... unless you are fighting tons of little men, in which case it would rock peoples socks off!

YouLostMe
2011-10-17, 07:52 PM
Sorry to jump on you again, but here's another critique


its 2d4 because 60d4>30d6
This is very nonstandard... why not 1d10? I actually have 20 10-sided dice sitting around at home, but I've only got like 5 or 6 4-sided dice. Rolling 60d4 requires a large amount of resources (unlikely) or is very time-inefficient (likely, also boring). Counting dice is only so much fun.


Hmm I guess I could add cool stuff to the meteors

But a 9th level spell SHOULD be better than nay meta magic-ed up spell that ends up being 9th level.Riders. I cannot emphasize that enough--the 9th level spells need rider effects to compete.


If you aim a sphere at a specific creature, you may make a ranged touch attack to strike the target with the meteor. Any creature struck by one of these spheres takes 3d8 points of Impact damage (no save) and receives no saving throw against the sphere’s fire damage (see below). If a targeted sphere misses its target, it simply explodes at the nearest corner of the target’s space. You may aim more than one meteor at the same target. Four ranged touch attacks for 13.5 damage per attack. You will probably only miss 5% of the time, so if you want to hit every time, you've got about an 81% chance. Fine by me.


Once a sphere reaches its destination, it explodes in a 40-foot-radius spread, dealing 2d4 points of fire damage per caster level to each creature in the area. If a creature is within the area of more than one sphere, it must save separately against each. (Fire resistance applies to each sphere’s damage individually.)So anything with fire resistance is pretty annoyed, and anything with fire immunity (outsiders say hello) is laughing as it dusts the remnants of meteorite off of their body. I highly suggest dealing a portion of fire damage and a portion of force damage, because otherwise casters of this spell are useless against fire dragons, baatezu, and barely bother tanar'ri and yugoloths.


The ground under the area of effect of Meteor Swarm is considered difficult terrain and any target that is damaged is knocked Prone (no save)Neh, at 9th level you can use SoD effects, which means that players need to have some incentive to use this spell instead of an empowered polymorph any object. Being knocked prone means next turn you can stand up and turn invisible or fly away or fire off your own Save or Die as a counter. To convince players to run with this spell, the rider should be something more than being knocked prone. I recommend knocking them prone if they take damage from the blast or a meteor, and knocking them prone, shaking them, and lighting them on fire (something more than normal, so that a caster needs to worry about his concentration check) if they get hit and burned. THEN you have a pretty good creep farmer/anti-caster/crowd control spell, that I would definitely consider when making my choices.

Valwyn
2011-10-17, 08:13 PM
How about bypassing fire resistance entirely and dealing 50% damage to things immune to fire? Sort of like hellfire, but arcane rather than infernal and not as poweful (so it's still actual fire).

Hellfire is the creation of Mephistopheles, archduke of Cania. Hotter than the hottest flames of any world, hellfire burns with a white-hot glow and is capable of burning through even the hardest of substances. Hellfire does not deal fire damage, despite its flames. Even creatures with immunity or resistance to fire take full normal damage from these hellish flames. Hellfire also deals full damage to objects, unlike normal fire damage.

Kenneth
2011-10-17, 08:23 PM
Ok to take you lost me's thoughts on this and 'rider' effects which I assume to mean passive that happen in addition to teh spell's effect and add on a bit here we go for another revision of Meteor Swarm! I upped the damage and added some new bad stuffs that happen when you get hit with a freggin meteor!

Meteor Swarm Evocation [Fire]
Level:Sor/Wiz 9
Components:V, S
Casting Time:1 standard action
Range:Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area:Four 40-ft.-radius spreads; see text
Duration:Instantaneous
Saving Throw:None or Reflex half; see text
Spell Resistance:Yes


Meteor swarm is a very powerful and spectacular spell that is similar to fireball in many aspects. When you cast it, four 2-foot-diameter spheres, as well as scores of smaller speheres spring from your outstretched hand and streak in straight lines to the spots you select. Any creature in the straight line path of these meteors recieves the full effect without the benefits of a saving throw. The meteor spheres leave a fiery trail of sparks.

If you aim a sphere at a specific creature, you may make a ranged touch attack to strike the target with the meteor. Any creature struck by one of these spheres takes 3d8 +2/caster level points of Impact damage (no save) and receives no saving throw against the sphere’s fire damage (see below). If a targeted sphere misses its target, it simply explodes at the nearest corner of the target’s space. You may aim more than one meteor at the same target. In addition the numerous smaller meteorites assaulting the area deal 1d8 per two caster levels impact damage in the four 40 foot radius spreads (no save)

Once a sphere reaches its destination, it explodes in a 40-foot-radius spread, dealing 2d4 points of fire damage per caster level to each creature in the area. If a creature is within the area of more than one sphere, it must save separately against each. (Fire resistance applies to each sphere’s damage individually.)

The ground under the area of effect of Meteor Swarm is considered difficult terrain and any target that is damaged is knocked Prone (no save) The next round those targets damaged by this spell are dazed for 1 round and staggered for 1d3 additional rounds as well as having to make a reflex save or catch on fire.

YouLostMe
2011-10-18, 01:35 AM
Riders are "if the effect hits, then X"
And holy crap way too good. Daze means no actions for a turn. Staggered means half-actions for a turn, and prone means you need to spend a move action to stand up. So at a minimum, anyone who takes damage from this effect is subjects to two turns of not being able to act. And you've bumped the damage for a meteor hitting again while also adding more AoE damage. Everyone will take this spell forever now.

Don't have more than one action-denial effect (prone). The rest of the effects should be damage (being on fire) or penalties. And don't overload on the damage. I recommend this:


Meteor Swarm Evocation [Fire]
Level:Sor/Wiz 9
Components:V, S
Casting Time:1 standard action
Range:Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area:Four 40-ft.-radius spreads; see text
Duration:Instantaneous
Saving Throw:None or Reflex half; see text
Spell Resistance:Yes

Meteor swarm is a very powerful and spectacular spell that is similar to fireball in many aspects. When you cast it, four 2-foot-diameter spheres, spring from your outstretched hand and streak in straight lines to the spots you select, leaving a trail of fiery sparks. Any creature in the line of effect from you to the chosen target of a meteor takes the impact damage with no need for a ranged touch attack.

If you aim a sphere at a specific creature, you may make a ranged touch attack to strike the target with the meteor. Any creature struck by one of these spheres takes 3d6 points of bludgeoning damage (no save) from the impact and receives no saving throw against the sphere’s fire damage (see below). If a targeted sphere misses its target, it simply explodes at the nearest corner of the target’s space. You may aim more than one meteor at the same target.

Once a sphere reaches its destination, it explodes in a 40-foot-radius spread, dealing 1d10 points of damage per caster level, half of which bypasses fire immunity and fire resistance, to each creature in the area. If a creature is within the area of more than one sphere, it must save separately against each. (Fire resistance applies to each sphere’s damage individually.)

Any creature that takes damage from a meteor's impact or explosion is knocked prone. Any creature that takes damage from a meteor's impact and the same meteor's explosion is knocked prone, shaken, and takes 1d4 fire damage per two caster levels. Additionally, the ground under the area of effect of meteor swarm is considered difficult terrain.

Cieyrin
2011-10-18, 09:39 AM
The problem with all of these is that making the area difficult terrain along with the instantaneous duration makes it meaningless, as once it takes effect, it's immediately gone thereafter, slowing no one. You need to split the duration for the effects or something.

Also, I don't see where d10s are better than 2d6, as everybody and their brother has d6s. 2d6 has higher min, max and average damage than a d10 and D&D players who don't play White Wolf games will have maybe a pair for percentiles and that's 'bout it.

My thoughts on making it more uber is to take from Ice Storm for the area no saves on the damage, provide scaling damage, knock prone (vs. Fort) and create difficult terrain for that 1 round/level (which, admittedly, won't do much against the prevalent fliers and teleporters at this level). Get rid of the touch attacks (This ain't Melf's Minute Meteors!) and just hit the area with 1d6 bludgeoning and 2d6 fire per CL. When you get it, that's 51d6 at minimum that's wrecking homes and castles and the dudes within them. The area should be a giant cylinder so you can take out pesky fliers while you're at it, let's say 100' radius cylinder that's 80' high. Now that's a 9th level spell! :smallamused:

YouLostMe
2011-10-18, 01:26 PM
The problem with all of these is that making the area difficult terrain along with the instantaneous duration makes it meaningless, as once it takes effect, it's immediately gone thereafter, slowing no one. You need to split the duration for the effects or something.Erm... wall of iron is instantaneous, but the wall doesn't disappear. The difficult terrain is a feature of the world. Though the duration for a rider like special fire and shaken would need to be determined.


Also, I don't see where d10s are better than 2d6, as everybody and their brother has d6s. 2d6 has higher min, max and average damage than a d10 and D&D players who don't play White Wolf games will have maybe a pair for percentiles and that's 'bout it.I was trying to avoid the "count all thirty-two dice yayy!" d10s are closer to kenneth's 2d4, and involve less dice.


My thoughts on making it more uber is to take from Ice Storm for the area no saves on the damage, provide scaling damage, knock prone (vs. Fort) and create difficult terrain for that 1 round/level (which, admittedly, won't do much against the prevalent fliers and teleporters at this level). Get rid of the touch attacks (This ain't Melf's Minute Meteors!) and just hit the area with 1d6 bludgeoning and 2d6 fire per CL. When you get it, that's 51d6 at minimum that's wrecking homes and castles and the dudes within them. The area should be a giant cylinder so you can take out pesky fliers while you're at it, let's say 100' radius cylinder that's 80' high. Now that's a 9th level spell! :smallamused:

too many dice. And at this level, you're all ready playing rocket launcher tag with better spells like wail and weird and imprisonment. An invocation spell that deals weak types of damage in large amounts impresses only a set of monsters and no buffed npcs.

Cieyrin
2011-10-18, 02:18 PM
Erm... wall of iron is instantaneous, but the wall doesn't disappear. The difficult terrain is a feature of the world. Though the duration for a rider like special fire and shaken would need to be determined.

The difference between is the wall is a permanent object, difficult terrain is more of an effect like shaken. You don't just have difficult terrain, you have rubble or thick underbrush that makes it difficult terrain. I know the effect is to get the resulting meteor debris to create said difficult terrain but, as its an effect of the damage, its dealt with and then goes away. You'd have to be more specific about the debris sticking around for the instantaneous duration to apply to making the area around difficult terrain, which was my point.


I was trying to avoid the "count all thirty-two dice yayy!" d10s are closer to kenneth's 2d4, and involve less dice.

You're still throwing around 17d10, most likely more than that if you optimize caster level like a good little wizard. That's still more than a handful that'll scatter across your table and onto the floor. It's also far more easy to find miniature d6s for just that reason of being able to roll 'em all at once than it is to find the same in d10s.


too many dice. And at this level, you're all ready playing rocket launcher tag with better spells like wail and weird and imprisonment. An invocation spell that deals weak types of damage in large amounts impresses only a set of monsters and no buffed npcs.

Since when is Wail a rocket tag spell? It's a Death effect first, which high level creatures tend to be immune to, second it's a Save or Lose, so if they make that Fort save (not a hard prospect, considering anything monstrous or optimized will have a good Fort save exactly for avoiding such effects), you haven't done anything worthwhile. It's a mook killer at best, which is similar to what Meteor Swarm is meant for doing. The difference is that bludgeoning damage isn't going to have to deal with annoying energy resistances and immunities that are ever so common on high level critters. You may have to deal with DR but those tend to be less than resistances are and very few creatures tend to be immune to bludgeoning or damage in general. The fire damage may perhaps get shrugged but that's kinda what Meteor Swarm is about, throwing around lots of fire. If characters are terribly worried about that aspect, there's ways to circumvent that (Energy Substitution, Searing Spell). Finally, if you're evoker or warmage, you're playing this precisely because you like throwing around lots of dice, which you've been dealing with since you got Disintegrate a good while ago. I find it a strange complaint that you want to throw around less, at which point I must say why not just grab a Metamagic Rod of Maximize and not worry about it?

137ben
2011-10-18, 04:08 PM
Good point. I'm more concerned with the fact that most players will have a lot more d6s than d4s.

Okay, there are a ton of ways to roll an effective d4. You could roll a d8 (1-2 is a 1, 3-4 is a 2, ect.), a d20 (same idea), flip two coins (heads-heads=4, heads-tails=3, tails-heads=2, two tails is a 1).
If for some reason you don't have coins, you can roll any even die (i.e. any die). And even roll is heads, and odd roll is tails.

bobthe6th
2011-10-18, 05:01 PM
I have played characters that for most attacks throw well over 14 d4s, and I had worries about getting lynched by the other players... limiting the dice thrown is often a good thing. which is why, for this high end a spell it should have a flat limit. when you are throwing around 2-5 d6, there is a statistically significant chance the result will differentiate from the average. with 20... not so much. so lets say the swarm does 2d8 on impact, and 5 *level damage, half fire half bludgeoning. at the first level you gert this, 17, you 43 fire and 43 bludgeoning*4. 270 damage would drop may foes I would think...

Kenneth
2011-10-18, 05:24 PM
YOULOSTME, if everybody wants to do some meteor swarm over wail fo death or weird That is kinda what I am looking for, an actualy splle that deals damage and makes people say "oh yeah time to hurt"

in regards to rolling a crap ton of dice, its definite ly something I want to keep, as there is some kind of spychological rush that comes with rolling handfulls of dice and lets other people say " ouch.. thats gonna hurt" and have monsters saying " did you get teh liscense plate of that half golem tarrasque?"


I don't know a 9th level spells should In my opinion, for lack of better term 'rock one's world"

after all getting hit with a freggin metoer should do more than just deal damage, the impact alone would at least leave you dazed, confused, deaf and blind for a while. so I went with prone, dazed and staggard. Now nobody can say blasting is worhtless , at least I hope.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-18, 09:46 PM
YOULOSTME, if everybody wants to do some meteor swarm over wail fo death or weird That is kinda what I am looking for, an actualy splle that deals damage and makes people say "oh yeah time to hurt"

in regards to rolling a crap ton of dice, its definite ly something I want to keep, as there is some kind of spychological rush that comes with rolling handfulls of dice and lets other people say " ouch.. thats gonna hurt" and have monsters saying " did you get teh liscense plate of that half golem tarrasque?"


I don't know a 9th level spells should In my opinion, for lack of better term 'rock one's world"

after all getting hit with a freggin metoer should do more than just deal damage, the impact alone would at least leave you dazed, confused, deaf and blind for a while. so I went with prone, dazed and staggard. Now nobody can say blasting is worhtless , at least I hope.

It's simple, really, Kenneth. You want power. You want real, honest-to-Pelor fire power. So don't base this spell off meteor swarm at all. Base it off the deadliest spell in the game: harm.

Make the spell deal 10 points of damage per caster level, no maximum. Half of it fire damage, half of it untyped damage, and not a single dice rolled.

YouLostMe
2011-10-20, 05:17 PM
The difference between is the wall is a permanent object, difficult terrain is more of an effect like shaken. You don't just have difficult terrain, you have rubble or thick underbrush that makes it difficult terrain. I know the effect is to get the resulting meteor debris to create said difficult terrain but, as its an effect of the damage, its dealt with and then goes away. You'd have to be more specific about the debris sticking around for the instantaneous duration to apply to making the area around difficult terrain, which was my point.All right, so if you think this is very pertinent, I won't critique you further. However, I'm going to deal with that 'problem' the way I deal with IHS. When people claim an effect does something with that sort of awkward logic, I just stare at them like they're speaking a foreign language I don't know and go on with the game. You cannot be freed from gravity using IHS, and debris doesn't disappear from meteor swarm.


You're still throwing around 17d10, most likely more than that if you optimize caster level like a good little wizard. That's still more than a handful that'll scatter across your table and onto the floor. It's also far more easy to find miniature d6s for just that reason of being able to roll 'em all at once than it is to find the same in d10s.I'm thinking that since each of my friends in a group has 2d10 (4 person party plus DM) , we could compile our dice for only two rolls of far fewer dice.

Each person also has about 4 six-sided dice, and while that comes out to only two rolls as well, however that's still twice as many dice and twice as many awkwards. My friends and I do not carry 32 six-sided dice around with us. Even when we were using dicepools (SR4 whooo), we couldn't compile our dice to reach 32. Maybe I'm just strange in that sense, but I always thought that it was normal.


Since when is Wail a rocket tag spell? It's a Death effect first, which high level creatures tend to be immune to, second it's a Save or Lose, so if they make that Fort save (not a hard prospect, considering anything monstrous or optimized will have a good Fort save exactly for avoiding such effects), you haven't done anything worthwhile. It's a mook killer at best, which is similar to what Meteor Swarm is meant for doing. The difference is that bludgeoning damage isn't going to have to deal with annoying energy resistances and immunities that are ever so common on high level critters. You may have to deal with DR but those tend to be less than resistances are and very few creatures tend to be immune to bludgeoning or damage in general. The fire damage may perhaps get shrugged but that's kinda what Meteor Swarm is about, throwing around lots of fire. If characters are terribly worried about that aspect, there's ways to circumvent that (Energy Substitution, Searing Spell). Finally, if you're evoker or warmage, you're playing this precisely because you like throwing around lots of dice, which you've been dealing with since you got Disintegrate a good while ago. I find it a strange complaint that you want to throw around less, at which point I must say why not just grab a Metamagic Rod of Maximize and not worry about it?
Oh! Oh! I can nitpick too! Since when is meteor swarm meant to be a 9th level spell? First of all, it's calling down a whole meteor, and if volcanos are epic spells then blah blah blah. Oh and also if you don't like not throwing around a lot of dice, why not just grab a Metamagic Rod of Empower and not worry about it?

And now that you and have proved that we can act like children, let's get to the meat of your conversation. This spell is not mook-killer, spells like incendiary cloud are mook killers, because they don't waste your highest level spells. You use your high level spells to kill high level monsters.

And so we have the paradox, either this spell is an AoE mook killer (no), or it does enough damage to be competitive with 9th level spells (a level-appropriate SoD effect on an AoE if OP), or it has riders that make it more useful as a debuff (mass debuff is competitive with SoDs) with a specific type of target like caster, meleer, etc. That's why my example was an anti-caster AoE with moderate damage.


YOULOSTME, if everybody wants to do some meteor swarm over wail fo death or weird That is kinda what I am looking for, an actualy splle that deals damage and makes people say "oh yeah time to hurt"

in regards to rolling a crap ton of dice, its definite ly something I want to keep, as there is some kind of spychological rush that comes with rolling handfulls of dice and lets other people say " ouch.. thats gonna hurt" and have monsters saying " did you get teh liscense plate of that half golem tarrasque?"


I don't know a 9th level spells should In my opinion, for lack of better term 'rock one's world"

after all getting hit with a freggin metoer should do more than just deal damage, the impact alone would at least leave you dazed, confused, deaf and blind for a while. so I went with prone, dazed and staggard. Now nobody can say blasting is worhtless , at least I hope.
Kenneth, the problem is not that your spell is super cool, it's that your spell is overpowered. It needs to be balanced, or else it's a bad spell.

And "lots" of dice is about 20. That's a lot. 40 dice is sort of like that, except its also annoying because it requires lots of rolling. Players will be less about the "HELL YEAH DAMAGE!" and more about the "Oh great, how many d4s do we have?"

Also, for the high damage thing, see my reply to 137ben about damage. Enough damage to make someone worry is overpowered when used in an AoE. You either need to make this single-target or find another strategy.

Cieyrin
2011-10-20, 07:47 PM
All right, so if you think this is very pertinent, I won't critique you further. However, I'm going to deal with that 'problem' the way I deal with IHS. When people claim an effect does something with that sort of awkward logic, I just stare at them like they're speaking a foreign language I don't know and go on with the game. You cannot be freed from gravity using IHS, and debris doesn't disappear from meteor swarm.

Except that is how it works. Consider Ice Storm, when the duration ends, the ice and slush goes away, whether thermodynamics likes it or not. No moisture is left to mark the coming or passing, just the damage that was dealt. Same for a Cone of Cold, etc. The original Meteor Swarm doesn't actually call down meteors, as it's an Evocation, which creates and manipulates energy. It throws out, for lack of a better term, 'solidified' fire, which is where the bludgeoning comes in, and then bursts like a fireball and then ends and disappears, because it's Instantaneous. It's even in your version of the spell.
When you cast it, four 2-foot-diameter spheres, spring from your outstretched hand and streak in straight lines to the spots you select, leaving a trail of fiery sparks. Those ain't from the sky, you make 'em and they streak to hit designated targets before exploding in fire and then, bamf, gone!

If we want the new Meteor Swarm to leave debris, that's a Creation effect, which is a subschool of Conjuration, not Evocation, which is also where the majority of Wall spells that leave permanent walls are from, so evidently we'd want to change the school from Evocation to produce said effect and state that the rubble sticks around to block movement. Check out Obedient Avalanche, it does exactly what you want to do as a Conjuration (Creation), not an Evocation. That's all I asked was to add a sentence, not bring in how poorly written Iron Heart Surge is and attempt to use that as a counter-example.


I'm thinking that since each of my friends in a group has 2d10 (4 person party plus DM) , we could compile our dice for only two rolls of far fewer dice.

Each person also has about 4 six-sided dice, and while that comes out to only two rolls as well, however that's still twice as many dice and twice as many awkwards. My friends and I do not carry 32 six-sided dice around with us. Even when we were using dicepools (SR4 whooo), we couldn't compile our dice to reach 32. Maybe I'm just strange in that sense, but I always thought that it was normal.

I guess we'll just leave that as a difference of opinion, as I've always found gamers have this native obsession with collecting dice, or at least the ones I play with, that lots of dice isn't a problem. Lots of game effects deal damage in d6s for that matter, so people tend to have at least as many as d20s, if not more, and can raid their more regular games for their six siders.


Oh! Oh! I can nitpick too! Since when is meteor swarm meant to be a 9th level spell? First of all, it's calling down a whole meteor, and if volcanos are epic spells then blah blah blah. Oh and also if you don't like not throwing around a lot of dice, why not just grab a Metamagic Rod of Empower and not worry about it?

And now that you and have proved that we can act like children, let's get to the meat of your conversation. This spell is not mook-killer, spells like incendiary cloud are mook killers, because they don't waste your highest level spells. You use your high level spells to kill high level monsters.

And so we have the paradox, either this spell is an AoE mook killer (no), or it does enough damage to be competitive with 9th level spells (a level-appropriate SoD effect on an AoE if OP), or it has riders that make it more useful as a debuff (mass debuff is competitive with SoDs) with a specific type of target like caster, meleer, etc. That's why my example was an anti-caster AoE with moderate damage.

So, giving points of discussion is acting like children? :smallconfused: All I pointed out is that Wail of the Banshee isn't a good spell any more than the original Meteor Swarm is next to other spells of the level. Meteor Swarm is to the Archmage's Arcane Fire in effectiveness, which isn't much. The original Meteor Swarm is for dropping lots of damage in an area to damage people and buildings alike, which it's not so good at due to aforementioned preponderances of fire resistance and immunity hanging around high level critters. If that's a major concern, why not go the Flame Strike path and call the unresistable half arcane energy, force, bludgeoning, whatever, instead of 'really hot fire'. That's what I was getting at in my suggestions for creating devastation, as a significant portion of the damage is bludgeoning, which there isn't a resistance to and, as I said last time, DR tends to be lower than resistances do, capping early on at 15-20, as opposed to 30+, so a good chunk of it will still rock worlds.


Kenneth, the problem is not that your spell is super cool, it's that your spell is overpowered. It needs to be balanced, or else it's a bad spell.

And "lots" of dice is about 20. That's a lot. 40 dice is sort of like that, except its also annoying because it requires lots of rolling. Players will be less about the "HELL YEAH DAMAGE!" and more about the "Oh great, how many d4s do we have?"

Also, for the high damage thing, see my reply to 137ben about damage. Enough damage to make someone worry is overpowered when used in an AoE. You either need to make this single-target or find another strategy.

It's a 9th level spell, why shouldn't an AoE be dealing lots of damage by this point? You slogged through Warmage for this long and now we're just gonna tell them "No, your class sucks and we're taking the big guns away from you, too, so go sit in the corner while the clerics, druids and REAL wizards play"? Disintegrate's level 6 and does up to 30d6 to a single target with a save. Polar Ray does up to 25d6 to a single target at level 8, no save. Why should we have to wait till Epic and have to research Hellball and so forth when we can put something nice at the end of many careers? Let Evocation have something nice that Illusion, Conjuration and Transmutation tries to take from them. Let them blasters blast!

Kenneth
2011-10-20, 08:48 PM
@youlostme

It may well be becuase I have been playing for over 2 decades but I literraly have scores of dice ( the sad part is I prob lost 50-60% of my dice pool when I last moved /cry) so for me finding 20d4 to roll twice is not that big of a deal.


@Cieyrin
SO, when I cast fireball, the burnt patches of grass, dirt and such no longer exist as that was instantaneous? WHile I agre that spell affects that are PART of the spell itself only last as long as teh duration of teh spell, actual environental changes the spell causes as a aftereffect are permaent. Lets look at Wall of iron i canst it then tip it over it crashes to teh ground while the spel is instaneous. I bet it leaves a good sized indent in the ground where it tipped. Or lets try lightning bolt, I cast it at a thacth cottage, thought he lighning botl is intant, it still lights the building on fire as well as put a big hole in teh thing..

I may just be doing this all worng and RPing it against the rule, but eh. I think that there are some after effects that are indepentat of spells. I am probly wrong in this becuase i play the more 'it makes for a cooler and better story' type of play than ' rules say this' type of play.

and here is my new NEW version of meteor storm, reduced in power to be more 'blanaced' ; though really, what would it take to balance meteor swarm against Shapechange?


I calmed down the damage a bit and got rid of the dazed condition as well as specifiy what creates the difficult terrain of meteor swarm.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Meteor Swarm Evocation [Fire]
Level:Sor/Wiz 9
Components:V, S
Casting Time:1 standard action
Range:Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area:Four 40-ft.-radius spreads; see text
Duration:Instantaneous
Saving Throw:None or Reflex half; see text
Spell Resistance:Yes


Meteor swarm is a very powerful and spectacular spell that is similar to fireball in many aspects. When you cast it, four 2-foot-diameter spheres, as well as scores of smaller speheres spring from your outstretched hand and streak in straight lines to the spots you select. Any creature in the straight line path of these meteors recieves the full effect without the benefits of a saving throw. The meteor spheres leave a fiery trail of sparks.

If you aim a sphere at a specific creature, you may make a ranged touch attack to strike the target with the meteor. Any creature struck by one of these spheres takes 1d6+1 every 2 caster level points of Impact damage (no save) and receives no saving throw against the sphere’s fire damage (see below). If a targeted sphere misses its target, it simply explodes at the nearest corner of the target’s space. You may aim more than one meteor at the same target. In addition the numerous smaller meteorites assaulting the area crash into the ground exploding in a storm of debris, dust and shrapnel. These smaller meteroites deal 3 impact damage per caster level in the four 40 foot radius spreads (no save)

Once a large sphere reaches its destination, it explodes in a 40-foot-radius spread, dealing 2d4 points of fire damage per caster level to each creature in the area. If a creature is within the area of more than one sphere, it must save separately against each. (Fire resistance applies to each sphere’s damage individually.)

The ground under the area of effect of Meteor Swarm is considered difficult terrain and any target that is damaged is knocked Prone (no save) The next round those targets damaged by this spell are staggered for 1d3 additional rounds as well as having to make a reflex save equal to the DC of Meteor Swarm or catch on fire

YouLostMe
2011-10-20, 08:59 PM
I guess we'll just leave that as a difference of opinion, as I've always found gamers have this native obsession with collecting dice, or at least the ones I play with, that lots of dice isn't a problem. Lots of game effects deal damage in d6s for that matter, so people tend to have at least as many as d20s, if not more, and can raid their more regular games for their six siders.All right, well I suppose that's quite the matter of opinion again. I believe we both agree, however, that d4's isn't the greatest way to go.


So, giving points of discussion is acting like children? :smallconfused: All I pointed out is that Wail of the Banshee isn't a good spell any more than the original Meteor Swarm is next to other spells of the level.Nitpicking is for children. It's a subset of the strawman. If I had my paragraph up there without any examples, your wouldn't have had any way to attack the point from the stand that you took. If I hadn't listed Wail as an SoD and had something like imprisonment or stone shape shenanigans, you wouldn't have had any way to attack the point from the stand that you took. That makes it a poor argument.


The original Meteor Swarm is for dropping lots of damage in an area to damage people and buildings alike, which it's not so good at due to aforementioned preponderances of fire resistance and immunity hanging around high level critters. If that's a major concern, why not go the Flame Strike path and call the unresistable half arcane energy, force, bludgeoning, whatever, instead of 'really hot fire'. That's what I was getting at in my suggestions for creating devastation, as a significant portion of the damage is bludgeoning, which there isn't a resistance to and, as I said last time, DR tends to be lower than resistances do, capping early on at 15-20, as opposed to 30+, so a good chunk of it will still rock worlds.

It's a 9th level spell, why shouldn't an AoE be dealing lots of damage by this point? You slogged through Warmage for this long and now we're just gonna tell them "No, your class sucks and we're taking the big guns away from you, too, so go sit in the corner while the clerics, druids and REAL wizards play"? Disintegrate's level 6 and does up to 30d6 to a single target with a save. Polar Ray does up to 25d6 to a single target at level 8, no save. Why should we have to wait till Epic and have to research Hellball and so forth when we can put something nice at the end of many careers? Let Evocation have something nice that Illusion, Conjuration and Transmutation tries to take from them. Let them blasters blast!I'll take both of these answer them at the same time, since they're basically the same qualm.

It's nice having awesome damage. One of the aspects of that is having enough damage that your lvl 9 spell can kill someone. It's sort of like a Save or Die, except it forces a reflex save. However, forcing a save or die in 4 40' circles is overpowered, even for 9th level. I'm not saying "LOL WARMAGE IS LIEK FIGHTER DOES NOT GET NICE THINGS", but I am advocating for game balance. And please please please don't start on disintegrate, I've all ready talked about that with Kenneth for long enough.

My point is this, and I'll try and wrap part of the argument that I may not be communicating here as well:
If you want teh true blasting damages, you need to deal more than just one attack dealing 2d6 per level. You need lots of attacks or more damage (3d6/level of force or sonic comes to mind). Now that's cool, because it makes evocation spells effectively into SoDs, which good because it's finally level-appropriate
If you want an AoE, you cannot have the same amount of damage. Because then the spell is an SoD AND an AoE, which makes it strictly better than other 9th-level spells. And balance is something we're trying not to mess up.

So you can have an AoE or you can have killtacular damage, but you can't have both. Both is cheating.

bobthe6th
2011-10-20, 09:26 PM
heck, just saying it tore up the ground moves it back to evocation.
conjuration is summoning junk, and sometimes having it stick around.
evocation is summoning junk, doing something with it, then it disappears.

they are separated by semantics, and conjuration tap dances on the toes of evocation.

conjuration v.s. evocation

wall of iron summons a WALL OF IRON, and lets you squish stuff by knocking it over.

fire ball summons FIRE in the shape of a BALL, that flash burns people then disappears.

Cieyrin
2011-10-20, 10:12 PM
@Cieyrin
SO, when I cast fireball, the burnt patches of grass, dirt and such no longer exist as that was instantaneous? WHile I agre that spell affects that are PART of the spell itself only last as long as teh duration of teh spell, actual environental changes the spell causes as a aftereffect are permaent. Lets look at Wall of iron i canst it then tip it over it crashes to teh ground while the spel is instaneous. I bet it leaves a good sized indent in the ground where it tipped. Or lets try lightning bolt, I cast it at a thacth cottage, thought he lighning botl is intant, it still lights the building on fire as well as put a big hole in teh thing..

All you've described are incidental effects as opposed to mechanical effects. Fireball specifically lights things on fires, melts low melting point metals and creates holes if they can blow through the hit points of barriers and will stay there, due to the damage being done. The hole in the wall by the lightning bolt is the result of the damage dealt, which doesn't go away. As for the Wall, that's a Conjuration(Creation) effect. It summons the Wall and then it falls under normal laws of its effects and has nothing to do with the spell, as the spell did it's job and went away.


All right, well I suppose that's quite the matter of opinion again. I believe we both agree, however, that d4's isn't the greatest way to go.

Nitpicking is for children. It's a subset of the strawman. If I had my paragraph up there without any examples, your wouldn't have had any way to attack the point from the stand that you took. If I hadn't listed Wail as an SoD and had something like imprisonment or stone shape shenanigans, you wouldn't have had any way to attack the point from the stand that you took. That makes it a poor argument.

I'll take both of these answer them at the same time, since they're basically the same qualm.

It's nice having awesome damage. One of the aspects of that is having enough damage that your lvl 9 spell can kill someone. It's sort of like a Save or Die, except it forces a reflex save. However, forcing a save or die in 4 40' circles is overpowered, even for 9th level. I'm not saying "LOL WARMAGE IS LIEK FIGHTER DOES NOT GET NICE THINGS", but I am advocating for game balance. And please please please don't start on disintegrate, I've all ready talked about that with Kenneth for long enough.

My point is this, and I'll try and wrap part of the argument that I may not be communicating here as well:
If you want teh true blasting damages, you need to deal more than just one attack dealing 2d6 per level. You need lots of attacks or more damage (3d6/level of force or sonic comes to mind). Now that's cool, because it makes evocation spells effectively into SoDs, which good because it's finally level-appropriate
If you want an AoE, you cannot have the same amount of damage. Because then the spell is an SoD AND an AoE, which makes it strictly better than other 9th-level spells. And balance is something we're trying not to mess up.

So you can have an AoE or you can have killtacular damage, but you can't have both. Both is cheating.

A sound argument is built on a sound foundation. Weird and Wail aren't good examples of 9th level spells, as they have just as many problems as Meteor Swarm does in being effective, except the difference being they're dependent on common immunities not being around. When a 4th level spell (Death Ward) beats your 9th level spell, there's problems. And also, I advocated early on for going away from the miniature meteor bit and just go for one large explosion. Perhaps there was too much damage dealt in my initial suggestion but it goes along the same lines without making specific exceptions to try to make it up to snuff. There's also that we're trying to stack on stuff that just doesn't jive with Evocation. Great Thunderclap shows that knocking prone, stunning and deafening can all work, as well as blinding from light spells. Creating difficult terrain is a horse of a different color, as the tools to do it come from different schools (Conjuration or Transmutation). If we want both in, I'd heartily suggest making the spell a dual-school between Evocation and Conjuration(Creation) so you have a bit of both to draw on and provide oomph for.


heck, just saying it tore up the ground moves it back to evocation.
conjuration is summoning junk, and sometimes having it stick around.
evocation is summoning junk, doing something with it, then it disappears.

they are separated by semantics, and conjuration tap dances on the toes of evocation.

conjuration v.s. evocation

wall of iron summons a WALL OF IRON, and lets you squish stuff by knocking it over.

fire ball summons FIRE in the shape of a BALL, that flash burns people then disappears.

The effect of the conjuration isn't the tipping, it's getting the wall here. You tip it by your own force afterwards, which the spell could care less about, since its already done its job by now. Evocations don't summon, they create energy. Where the Orb spells come in to muddle the lines just makes it confusing for everybody. Regardless, Conjuration deals in matter, Evocations deal in energy and the line between them should be respected.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-20, 10:29 PM
I guess you didn't like my suggestion Kenneth? I thought it was pretty well-reasoned too...

Kenneth
2011-10-20, 10:41 PM
I did add it in, though in an altered form... as I siad there is justs omethoign about rolling a load of dice that sends chills down people's spines and they thnk to themsevles ' that mage is gonan put the hurt down on somebody, big time"

I put your flat damage suggestion in as the the damage the smaller meteor's damage :)


and after looking throught eh MM1 of all the CR 17+ monsters, well it seems that metoer storm is only going to be doing around one half of thier life ( unless they are soemhow NOT immune to fire then in that case WOO!!!))

SO yeah that is about what i think a 9th levle spell should do bring the pain!

YouLostMe
2011-10-21, 02:21 AM
A sound argument is built on a sound foundation. Weird and Wail aren't good examples of 9th level spells, as they have just as many problems as Meteor Swarm does in being effective, except the difference being they're dependent on common immunities not being around. When a 4th level spell (Death Ward) beats your 9th level spell, there's problems.Right, and when a wall (of stone, force, iron, ice, maybe a quickened teleportation/dimension door, etc.) beats your meteor swarm there are problems. Ho ho! Nitpicking we go! I'm done with this topic.


And also, I advocated early on for going away from the miniature meteor bit and just go for one large explosion. Perhaps there was too much damage dealt in my initial suggestion but it goes along the same lines without making specific exceptions to try to make it up to snuff. There's also that we're trying to stack on stuff that just doesn't jive with Evocation. Great Thunderclap shows that knocking prone, stunning and deafening can all work, as well as blinding from light spells. "Doesn't jive" with evocation happens to not matter in the slightest. Honestly, can you guess what homebrew forum has a user that invented a magic system based on creatures that don't exist?

However, it appears that you agree, then, that this spell needs to be single-target and high-damage or AoE and something better? Good, because that's the basis of the argument. We can just build up from there.

ngilop
2012-02-27, 12:37 AM
I like this version of Meteor Swarm, the ability to deal 400 dmg to a target ( 240 of that fire damage) is definately something a 9th level evocation spell should be able to do.


Keep in mind the spells Meteor swarm is competiting against, shapechange where you can become something that has 20 attacks each dealing 3d6+20 dmg, ice assassin, Astrla projection, and all that other even more bad asseryness that is everyshcool except for evocation.

Yitzi
2012-02-27, 11:37 AM
and this coming form what is upposed to be the mother of damaging spells as its 9th level

I think this portrays a misunderstanding of evocation.

At higher levels, at least, evocation's strength isn't damage. Save-or-dies will generally be superior than any amount of damage. What makes high-level evocations useful is that they can hit a large number of targets, making them very good at crowd control. Meteor Swarm is very good for this; it can destroy pretty much all of the enemy's minions in a single casting, making the fight much easier if the minions were being used for an important support role.

NeoSeraphi
2012-02-27, 12:21 PM
I think this portrays a misunderstanding of evocation.

At higher levels, at least, evocation's strength isn't damage. Save-or-dies will generally be superior than any amount of damage. What makes high-level evocations useful is that they can hit a large number of targets, making them very good at crowd control. Meteor Swarm is very good for this; it can destroy pretty much all of the enemy's minions in a single casting, making the fight much easier if the minions were being used for an important support role.

Meteor swarm is subpar for mopping up mooks. If you want to mop up mooks using a 9th level spell slot, well, that's what maximized chain lightning is for. 120 electricity damage to the BBEG, and 60 damage to each of his minions. Even if you would manage to catch each mook with 2 of the 4 meteors, 12d6 fire damage is generally going to be lower than 60 electricity damage, and electricity is not as commonly resisted as fire.

Meanwhile, Kenneth's retooled meteor swarm is great for mopping up mooks as well, with the smaller meterorites dealing 60 points of impact damage, and the larger ones dishing out 40d4 fire damage. So, yeah. It accomplishes exactly what it's supposed to do, as well as dealing decent damage to the BBEG, and most importantly, avoiding that pathetic [Death] tag.

Randomguy
2012-02-27, 04:33 PM
Try making a "meteor swarm" spell. Not a "Four meteors" spell. And make it a battlefield control, damage over time spell, since pure blasting isn't great. I suggest something like a 9th level version of sleet storm.

ngilop
2012-02-27, 06:30 PM
I would like to say to random guy, 'please actually read Kenneth's version of Meteor Swarm' there are more than just 4 meteors being tossed around.

here lte me illumitnate what I am referring to ala quotes.


When you cast it, four 2-foot-diameter spheres, as well as scores of smaller speheres spring from your outstretched hand and streak in straight lines to the spots you select.

and


In addition the numerous smaller meteorites assaulting the area crash into the ground exploding in a storm of debris, dust and shrapnel. These smaller meteroites deal 3 impact damage per caster level in the four 40 foot radius spreads (no save)


you see the BIG meteors do the BIG damage of impact and exploding, while the smaller ones deal a flat amount of damage the two combined make the area difficult terrain as well as knocking things prone, I would make the staggard condition depenat on a fail save myself. other than that I love meteor swarm the way it is.


again.. how is 10d6+10+60 unavoidalbe damage+40d6firedamage not great? that averages out to around 103 impact damage and 132 fire damage PER meteor. rember that the set impact damage from the minor meteor(ites i guess LOL) and explosion damage CAN overlap so... the point is even with the whole fire resist 60 most people have at lvl 20 72 dmg is a nice chunk of damage.

Yitzi
2012-02-27, 07:45 PM
Meteor swarm is subpar for mopping up mooks. If you want to mop up mooks using a 9th level spell slot, well, that's what maximized chain lightning is for. 120 electricity damage to the BBEG, and 60 damage to each of his minions.

Only 20 of his minions. If he's got a few hundred third- or fourth-level minions using Aid Another and providing low-level buffs and just getting in the way, chain lightning won't help much. But meteor swarm can mop them up pretty well.

bobthe6th
2012-02-27, 07:54 PM
well for that fly+ disintegrate is hilarious... or an explosive rune bomb on a grain of sand carried in a spectral hand...

Yitzi
2012-02-27, 08:00 PM
Disintegrate is useless against large numbers of enemies. An explosive rune bomb can be fun, though (as V can tell us)...at least until they learn to not read stuff.

Cieyrin
2012-02-27, 08:21 PM
Disintegrate is useless against large numbers of enemies. An explosive rune bomb can be fun, though (as V can tell us)...at least until they learn to not read stuff.

The explosive rune bomb has never been dependent on people actually reading it, it's been set off by intentionally failing to dispel it, thus setting the whole shebang off.

bobthe6th
2012-02-27, 08:45 PM
if the BBEG goes down... the fighter gets to feel usefull.

I just saw the idea of chain lightning against a BBEG and his mooks and asumed it was an attempt to off the BBEG, not to kill his minions. so yeah a metiro swarm should help their...

perhaps run it as a mm swarm? or bolt mm?(force damage in a curve able line)... I see the attempt is to build a reasonable 9th level spell. heck, a radiating burst of bolts off of a super bolt...

NeoSeraphi
2012-02-27, 08:51 PM
if the BBEG goes down... the fighter gets to feel usefull.

I just saw the idea of chain lightning against a BBEG and his mooks and asumed it was an attempt to off the BBEG, not to kill his minions. so yeah a metiro swarm should help their...

perhaps run it as a mm swarm? or bolt mm?(force damage in a curve able line)... I see the attempt is to build a reasonable 9th level spell. heck, a radiating burst of bolts off of a super bolt...

Bob, I don't mean to be rude here, but offering PEACH in a thread where the OP has been banned isn't going to help, sadly.

jaybird
2012-02-27, 08:57 PM
I'm thinking something like the Storm Call shout from Skyrim when I envision a "real" Meteor Swarm, both lasting over time and dealing massive damage. Keep in mind, this is the level of Prismatic Sphere, Wish, Time Stop, and Gate...

Meteor Swarm: Evocation [Fire]
Level:Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S
Casting Time:1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: cylinder (80 ft. radius, 80 ft. high)
Duration: Intelligence mod/3 rounds
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance:Yes

The caster calls down the ultimate force of the School of Evocation, covering a wide area in flame and fury. All targets within the area of effect of the spell take 6 Fire damage per caster level per round they remain within the spell's area. In addition, each round the caster may target a meteor directly and make a ranged touch attack as a move action to deal 10 Fire damage per caster level to one target within the area of effect of the spell. This spell behaves as if the metamagic feats Explosive Spell and Searing Spell were applied to it.

NeoSeraphi
2012-02-27, 09:00 PM
Intelligence mod/3 rounds? That's...no. Generally, caster level is the thing you use to determine duration, and there's no reason you should gimp a 9th level spell by going against that. 1 round per 3 caster levels is just fine, it'll be 6 rounds when the sorcerer gets it.

jaybird
2012-02-27, 09:03 PM
Intelligence mod/3 rounds? That's...no. Generally, caster level is the thing you use to determine duration, and there's no reason you should gimp a 9th level spell by going against that. 1 round per 3 caster levels is just fine, it'll be 6 rounds when the sorcerer gets it.

Oops, meant to write casting stat. Caster level/3 is fine too.

bobthe6th
2012-02-27, 09:13 PM
{{scrubbed}}

so PEACH(and being contributive...)

might rather make it deal half unresistable damage and have a save for being thrown out of the area then refrancing feats from a source book. some people run on the SRD alone(I have been sorely tempted to join them) and so don't have access.

but a combo of call lightning and incendiary cloud is cool. might actually be fun to let the area blast be the after affect of the mitior(so call lightning+fireball) heh, THAT would be nice damage, and worthy of a ninth level spell.

bobthe6th
2012-02-27, 11:30 PM
so a sample Idea...

Meteor Swarm: Evocation [Fire]
Level:Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S
Casting Time:one minute
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: one or more 20ft burst(s).
Duration: 24 hours
Saving Throw: Reflex against prone and half damage
Spell Resistance:Yes

Immediately upon completion of the spell, and once per round thereafter, you may launch a fiery meteor. This meteor flies out from your space up to it's maximum range, you may aim it at a foe but hitting them requires a ranged touch attack. foes struck by a meteor are dealt 4 force damage per caster level, and must make a reflex save or be knocked prone. The meteor then explodes in a twenty foot burst dealing 5 fire damage and 5 force damage to all foes in the area, and requiring a reflex save or be knocked prone.

You need not call a meteor immediately; other actions, even spellcasting, can be performed. However, each round after the first you may use a standard action (concentrating on the spell) to call a meteor. You may call a total number of meteors equal to your caster level.

(I justify force damage as this is evocation, and therefore should be energy based. it isn't actually a ball of rock, but a ball of force with some fire inside it. and ghosts can take some damage from a 9th level spell...)


over powered? not sure, but it is 9th level... lets the wizard nuke all day long instead of gate...

thoughts?

Yitzi
2012-02-28, 10:29 AM
The explosive rune bomb has never been dependent on people actually reading it, it's been set off by intentionally failing to dispel it, thus setting the whole shebang off.

Ah. What's the source that you can intentionally fail a dispel check?

Also, that still requires you to prep the area ahead of time and not have it messed up (as anything not within 10 feet of a runed object takes no damage), not very useful for raiding an enemy lair.

Cieyrin
2012-02-28, 12:19 PM
Ah. What's the source that you can intentionally fail a dispel check?

You can intentionally fail most d20 rolls, though I suppose it is somewhat contested whether dispel checks are counted among them. If that doesn't fly, the perfectly RAW way is to take the Arcane Mastery feat, which allows you to take 10 on any caster level check, including dispel checks. The DC to dispel spells is 11+CL, so, provided you don't have any pluses to dispelling, you can always fail to dispel the runes and set them off.[/quote]


Also, that still requires you to prep the area ahead of time and not have it messed up (as anything not within 10 feet of a runed object takes no damage), not very useful for raiding an enemy lair.

The way I see most people do it is, like V did with the bouncing ball, is to Rune up a ball, throw it at somebody and dispel it when it gets to where you want it, typically by having a Quickened Dispel or Quickened Arcane Turmoil or by having someone else throw the ball (Someone you've specifically instructed and thus is immune to the Runes, as per the spell) and ready to Dispel when it gets there. Targeting a square is against AC 5, so it's not hard to get it there to explode somebody to kingdom come.

Yitzi
2012-02-28, 04:39 PM
You can intentionally fail most d20 rolls

The only example I know of is saves. Have a source for any others?


If that doesn't fly, the perfectly RAW way is to take the Arcane Mastery feat, which allows you to take 10 on any caster level check, including dispel checks. The DC to dispel spells is 11+CL, so, provided you don't have any pluses to dispelling, you can always fail to dispel the runes and set them off.

No, as there's also a rule that you always succeed on checks to dispel your own spells. The only way to make your idea work is with two casters.


like V did with the bouncing ball

IIRC, that was Xykon. Also, if you use a single item for all the runes, then if the DM rules that they don't go off quite simultaneously then the first will destroy the object (and all the others) and thereby wreck the plan. Even if you do use the bomb, that's only a 10' radius, which is great for killing the BBEG, not so great for killing a room full of mooks (since unlike Xykon's ball which used Symbol of Death IIRC, this is an effect that destroys the object it's written on.)

NeoSeraphi
2012-02-28, 04:54 PM
The only example I know of is saves. Have a source for any others?


I don't know if it's RAW, but I certainly don't see why you couldn't intentionally fail a skill check. After all, you have complete control over your own character, if you want to fail something, then you should be able to fail it through voluntary, deliberate impediment, such as closing your eyes for a Spot check or letting go of the side of a cliff for a Climb check. Yelling while Moving Silently, stammering during a Bluff, or pressing the wrong notes during a Performance, etc.

The only skill checks I can see you not being able to intentionally fail are Knowledge/Sense Motive checks, since those generally just involve what your character passively knows or recognizes. There's no reason you couldn't keep the results secret or lie about them, but you'd still know.

Yitzi
2012-02-28, 05:27 PM
I don't know if it's RAW, but I certainly don't see why you couldn't intentionally fail a skill check. After all, you have complete control over your own character, if you want to fail something, then you should be able to fail it through voluntary, deliberate impediment, such as closing your eyes for a Spot check or letting go of the side of a cliff for a Climb check.

I'd say that's not so much failing the check as choosing not to make it in the first place. And thus reactive checks (e.g. a spot check to see the hidden medusa) you can't choose to fail.


stammering during a Bluff

In the right circumstances, stammering can make your bluff more believable. Makes it seem less rehearsed.

NeoSeraphi
2012-02-28, 05:37 PM
I'd say that's not so much failing the check as choosing not to make it in the first place. And thus reactive checks (e.g. a spot check to see the hidden medusa) you can't choose to fail.


There are plenty of reactive checks you could choose to fail. Intentionally slipping and falling on the ice from a failed Balance check? The DM requires you to make a check, you say you'd rather fall. Sure, that means you're essentially choosing not to make the check, but that's the exact same thing, mechanically speaking, as intentionally failing a saving throw.

Other examples of reaction checks you can choose to fail: Jumping to avoid a collapsing ledge, Escape Artist to avoid being grappled, Swim checks to fight a current.

Basically, when you're forced to make a skill check and you choose not to, it's the same thing as when you're forced to make a saving throw and you choose not to.

However, if that doesn't sit well with you RAWwise, there are...other options (http://www.drunkduck.com/One_Piece_Grand_Line_3_point_5/5370518/)...

Yitzi
2012-02-29, 10:08 AM
There are plenty of reactive checks you could choose to fail. Intentionally slipping and falling on the ice from a failed Balance check? The DM requires you to make a check, you say you'd rather fall. Sure, that means you're essentially choosing not to make the check, but that's the exact same thing, mechanically speaking, as intentionally failing a saving throw.

Yes, it acts the same as intentionally failing, but because you're not actually failing you can't extrapolate to cases where failure does not work the same as not making the check in the first place.


However, if that doesn't sit well with you RAWwise, there are...other options (http://www.drunkduck.com/One_Piece_Grand_Line_3_point_5/5370518/)...

Not sure what your point is here. I see nothing there that might be relevant to dispel checks except for that line about a d20 with all 1s, and that's not legal.

Cieyrin
2012-02-29, 10:54 AM
Not sure what your point is here. I see nothing there that might be relevant to dispel checks except for that line about a d20 with all 1s, and that's not legal.

It's only illegal if you get caught. :smallwink: [Cieyrin does not condone cheating in cooperative or competitive RPGs or games in general, you do so at your own discretion or if you happen to be playing Munchkin, where it's somewhat expected.]

You could just use one of those old d10s before ten sided dice were invented, which was a d20 with 0-9 twice, which is far more stealthy than a d20 with all 1s. :smalltongue: