Encounter Help: Sense of big scale battle

[Dakaran]

So I have an idea for an encounter that ultimately I want to have a big feel to it. I'm developing a campaign and I would really appreciate some advice on a specific encounter.

Backstory of the world
The world backstory is that on a single continent world a massive interior mountain cluster is one by one falling into the earth, leaving behind a growing pit that seems to have no bottom. The kingdoms of the world, fearing that the world was collapsing went to war over the coastal lands far away from the mountains, resulting in mass devastation on all sides. Kingdoms no longer exist. The largest towns in the world now number in the hundreds. The mountains were home to many dragons, and were thus displaced as their homes fell. In the aftermath that followed chaos and war a new way of life evolved. Dragons claimed leadership roles. As people united in small bands and tribes they either paid dragons to help provide and protect them, were conquered and enslaved by dragons, or a rare few even came to a mutual understanding to work together.

Immediate backstory to the encounter I'm trying to plan
The PCs serve under one of a few dragonlords that have formed a coalition to solve the problem of the world collapsing. There is a separate settlement for each dragonlord in the coalition.

The encounter I'm trying to plan is kinda early in the campaign. The story eventually finds the PCs chasing someone through a teleportation circle after finding a nearly empty enemy base of operations.

Encounter I'm trying to plan
Upon exiting the teleportation circle the players find themselves in the middle of one of their settlements with what appears to be a large battle in progress. The base that the PCs just went through was mostly empty because the occupants were attacking the PCs' settlement at the same time. I want the PCs to feel as though they are in the middle of a large battle, but I don't want them to feel like they have to now kill like a hundred guys and get bogged down. I'm really looking for advice on how to handle PCs in a "war" scenario. There are roughly 200 NPCs in the settlement and a dragonlord (the youngest in the coalition mentioned in the backstory) for the settlement, around 50-75 of the NPCs have weapons. The raiders will probably be around 100 in numbers, with two young dragons (level appropriate the PCs). I plan to have the PCs notice the two enemy dragons fighting the settlement's dragon and have an option for them to go help their dragon.

I guess here are my main questions I'm looking for advice on, although I'll take any and all advice and ideas:
#1: Is it a good idea to try and have the PCs engage one of the dragons while the other two fight each other or am I trying to be too ambitious?
#2: Are there other objectives that the players could have given the situation?
#3: Before reaching the dragons, how many raiders is a good amount to get in the way to give a sense of the battle without boring the players? #4:I don't have my book in front of me and I don't recall off-hand, how much time has to pass after a battle for a player to regain an encounter power?
#5: Is giving the sense of a huge battle more the work of narrative than a ton of minion creatures?

Thanks in advance!
Dakaran

[NecroRebel]

You probably should just handwave the dragon vs. dragon fight; decide who wins either beforehand or by the outcome of the PC vs. dragon fight. Similarly, the majority of the big group battle should be handwaved away, since what, exactly, happens during those fights isn't as important as who wins and what losses are incurred by either side.

As far as objectives... Save as many people on their side as possible, probably, and that will probably mostly involve making sure there's not a pair of dragons around to slaughter people. If they try to take command of groups, I'd suggest treating a whole squad of, say, 12-15 soldiers as a single Huge or Gargantuan creature built as a swarm. That will allow for you to actually represent all the numbers you've got without actually having to have a hundred units on the board; 7 or 8 is much more manageable.

The number of raiders can be artificially inflated using the same method if you so desire. I wouldn't have more than 1 "combat" during the battle before the boss fight, so that would normally limit you to 4-12 enemies (depending on relative levels), but if each of those enemies is a squad, they might actually manage to account for 50 or more soldiers all by themselves. Really heroic stuff, y'know? Partially that depends on their level, though; level 2 or 3 people probably can't deal with 50 at once, but level 7 or 8 probably could. I'd just say "a level-appropriate encounter's worth."

A short rest if 5 minutes, but it's supposed to involve anything much more strenuous than walking, so isn't likely to happen in the middle of a chaotic melee. As DM, though, you can waive that requirement if you wish.

Yes. Again, though, representing more than one soldier with a single "creature" would be entirely valid.

[Dakaran]

Thanks NecroRebel, I really appreciate the response! I'll definitely be taking it into account for planning it out. :smallsmile:

[Salivanth]

Everything NecroRebel says is awesome, and it's a great way to do it. Alternatively, you could go for some choices and consequences. The heroes can choose between helping their dragon by fighting one of the enemy dragons, or they can choose to help the town fight off the raiders.

If they choose to fight the enemy dragon, and win, their dragon survives but the town suffers heavier losses. If they fight the raiders, they save a bunch of the townsfolk, but the dragon loses the 2 on 1 fight, and dies. What this means for the campaign is up to you.

The books say 5 minutes pass in between fights to regain encounter powers and spend healing surges, but if you want to give the heroes several fights in quick succession, I recommend giving them one encounter power of their choice back each after a fight, and letting them spend one healing surge between each fight. A brief (1 minute or so) break in the action to let them catch their breath before going into the next one.

[missmvicious]

I ran a war campaign once. It wasn't easy, and the players and I worked together to agree on house rules to make the combat fair.

If it's believable that your players would be able to command a group of soldiers, and they decide to do so, then allow it, but here are some rules I used in such a situation (they're sloppy but the point was to streamline gameplay and keep the experience fun, which it did)

I used this in 3.5, so let me try to re-work this on the fly to 4e....

1. Let the players role a Diplomacy/Intimidate (and if they have a good point)/Bluff check to see what D tier of soldiers they command. 4, 6, 8, or 10. Then switch them to an appropriate size category: Large, Huge, Gargantuan, Colossal. Don't give them more than 10. The ask them to choose if they intend to lead the charge or command the ranks.
A) Lead the charge: The hero is the first to take damage, but the soldiers live on to Aid you.
B) Command the squad: The hero takes no damage as long as there is at least one soldier left to protect you.
Once the decision is made, it becomes their "battle formation" until the squad is released or killed in battle.

2. Soldiers can only use Aid Another in battle, and only for Attack or Defense. Roll one Aid Another Action. If they were successful at their Aid Another roll, roll the appropriate d# (you determined that earlier. A squad of 4 = a d4 and so on) to see how many of them successfully Aided you, then apply all bonuses to the same stat: either Attack or Defense. Soldiers cannot flank, cannot leave the group (unless you release them or they die in combat) and act on the beginning of your turn.

3. Each time the number of soldiers in your squad are reduced by 2, use the newly appropriate sided die for your Aid Another roll. If the number is reduced by 1, the highest number represents max Aid bonuses (if you have 7 soldiers still standing, roll a d8, on 8, you get +14 to Aid Another, just as if you had rolled a 7.)

4. Each round, as a minor action, they can attempt to summon more soldiers, but cannot have more than 10 at a time.


I'd rule that soldiers are dedicated to their posts, and would only follow the hero so far, so that you don't have to worry about them getting a +20 to their attack when they fight the BBEG. Once they get near the dragon, they could say, "Forgive me, but I must return to my post. I'm sure you can take it from here. We'll fend off the invaders; you take care of the dragons. Good luck!"

I'd also try to be realistic about how likely it is they would be able to order these soldiers around. If the heros are just a bunch of wandering do-gooders, then they are probably on their own unless they blow your mind with an amazing Diplomacy or Intimidate roll, at which point, give them 4 or 6 soldiers. If they grew up there and know everyone well, lower the DC a bit and increase the option to 8 soldiers. If they served in the military in a leadership capacity in that town, or in a high profile city near there, boost the option up to 10.

You can make your enemies fight basically the same way. Roll a d10 for the number of soldiers attacking your heroes. One of them gets to attack, the rest of them Aid.

It really streamlined our combat scenarios. In the end, I decided I would never DM a "war" campaign again, unless there was popular demand for it, but I kept the rules in case we had a session where a situation, like yours, comes up. It works well enough because it keeps the flow of battle streamlined. One could place a pretty strong argument that "That's not how battle works" but this is one aspect of my gaming where I prefer to phone-it-in for the sake of fun.

[Faye Grimm]

One suggestion I have is something my DM used for us when we were defending a village against a large war party. Have the heroes face the elite raiders, or the bosses, maybe even a named raider or two. This lets them feel like they're contributing more to the overall battle without necessarily having to fight a million guys. Still feel free to use what has been mentioned with the soldiers aiding either side, but this way it isn't just a grunt battle before the dragon, and it is a major victory for them. Then, as mentioned, have options they have to decide between, or have things depend on how well they do in a certain area. You could have it be something like an optional battle, probably a fairly difficult one that makes them question doing it, that will cause repercussions to the city, or one of their later battles if they either skip the fight or do badly(by badly, maybe they failed to defend someone/something or some of the enemies may have gotten away). That way they feel they really need to perform at the best of their abilities because not only could they die if they do badly, but the whole city is depending on them in various ways.