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View Full Version : Just a heads up... [3.5, PEACH]



Amechra
2011-10-21, 10:21 PM
I'm currently working on a large project of 3-level paragon classes, each based off of... Dun dUN DUN!

Cantrips.

Yes, you heard that right.

Well, the thing is, I already have one out of a planned 10 or so done (the Ghost-Slayer Blade, which gets so damned good with Disrupt Undead that you get a temporary blade made out of the spell and the ability to Turn Undead.), and one halfway complete (the Spell-Eye Scout, a master of Detect Magic who gets the ability to smell magic and eventually the ability to dispel magic by attacking it. Yes, you heard that right.)

So, the plan is that I will post these once I have 5 or so done (probably the ones for Ghost Sound, Prestidigitation, and Create Water).

So...

Any suggestions as to Cantrips you want to see awesome-fied? Please add in a little bit about how you want it awesome-fied as well, so I can use that as a leaping off point.

Feel free to suggest Fundamentals of Shadow as well, as I will include them too.

And also, keep in mind that all of these Paragon classes are 2/3 spellcasting.

So far, I plan to do:

Disrupt Undead (Done)
Detect Magic (In progress)
Create Water
Prestidigitation
Ghost Sound
Read Magic
Mage Hand
Mending
Open/Close
Dancing Lights

TravelLog
2011-10-21, 10:28 PM
Amanuensis?

Ajadea
2011-10-21, 10:31 PM
Acid Splash/Ray of Frost?
How about Daze?
I've used Message discreetly to make a guy think he was hearing voices...
Ooh, Summon Instrument!

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-21, 10:36 PM
Create water is an orison!

I second summon instrument, and raise you ventriloquism and silent image! (Gnome illusionists using the Races of Stone substitution levels get them as cantrips, and adding the option of being a gnome illusionist who can get even better with low-level illusions just adds to their gnome-ness)

Lateral
2011-10-21, 10:43 PM
Prestidigitation would have to be turned into a five-level class or something. It's like the cantrip version of Wish.

Also, Know Direction. Some kind of tracker or something.

Amechra
2011-10-21, 10:57 PM
Yes, I know Create Water is an Orison... I just think the idea of someone flooding a room with a cantrip is hilarious.

And I disagree that Prestidigitation needs a 5-level PrC; I mean, in my plans you get very limited spellcasting from it, so...

Amanuensis sounds like I could do interesting things with it; I wasn't planning on doing the elemental attack cantrips, but then again...

Mangles
2011-10-23, 01:28 AM
I also second summon instrument

Ziegander
2011-10-23, 01:59 AM
the Spell-Eye Scout, a master of Detect Magic who gets the ability to smell magic

You wouldn't happen to have been inspired by little 'ol me (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218567) for this one would you?

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-23, 02:27 AM
Touch of Fatigue and Arcane Mark.

Personally, I think someone should do one of these for every cantrip in the SRD, but that's just me (and even I'll admit I'm crazy). :smallwink:

radmelon
2011-10-23, 02:36 AM
How about caltrops? A little field of spiny doom.

Wyntonian
2011-10-23, 02:56 AM
Lullaby could be fun....

Ziegander
2011-10-23, 03:47 AM
Touch of Fatigue and Arcane Mark.

Arcane Mark sounds like a lot of fun. I'm envisioning a spy-type character.

Pyromancer999
2011-10-23, 10:17 AM
Sounds good, although I think I should point out that paragon classes are a racial thing, so these would just be 3-level prestige classes.

Morph Bark
2011-10-23, 10:21 AM
Sounds good, although I think I should point out that paragon classes are a racial thing, so these would just be 3-level prestige classes.

Paragon classes for living spells.

YEEEAAAAHHHH

Qwertystop
2011-10-23, 11:07 AM
Go for Virtue (that Orison that gives 1 temporary HP). So incredibly useless, it needs the help.

Pyromancer999
2011-10-23, 11:24 AM
Paragon classes for living spells.

YEEEAAAAHHHH

I've been looking over the original post, and it doesn't say that anywhere.

Ziegander
2011-10-23, 11:28 AM
I've been looking over the original post, and it doesn't say that anywhere.

Living Spell is a race, therefore, upon quoting your correction that paragon classes are a racial thing, he mentioned the intriguing idea of a Living Spell Racial Paragon class.

I second the class focused on Virtue. In fact...

Paragon of Virtue
Requirements
To qualify to become a Paragon of Virtue, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria:
Alignment: Any good.
Skills: Diplomacy 1 rank, Heal 1 rank
Spells or Spell-like Abilities: Must be able to cast or use Virtue as a spell or spell-like ability.

Game Rule Information

HD: d10

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
Spellcasting

1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Improved Virtue, Smite Evil 1/day|

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Divine Grace|
+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Virtuous Mission|
+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
[/table]

Class Skills (4 + Int modifier): Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Jump, Knowledge (Nobility), Listen, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, and Swim.

Weapon & Armor Proficiency
A Paragon of Virtue is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all light, medium, and heavy armor, and with shields (but not tower shields).

Improved Virtue (Sp): You may cast the Virtue spell (or use a Virtue spell-like ability) at-will as a swift action. Its range increases to Close (25ft + 5ft per two levels) and the beneficiary receives additional temporary hp from the spell equal to your Paragon of Virtue levels + 1/2 your other class levels. The duration of the effect increases to 1 hour.

Smite Evil (Su): Once per day you may fill yourself with a holy fervor that lasts a number of rounds equal to 5 + your Charisma modifier. During this time you add your Charisma modifier to attack rolls and to AC against evil creatures and deal additional damage to evil creatures equal to your class level.

You gain an additional use of Smite Evil for the day at 4th level and every four levels thereafter.

Your Paragon of Virtue levels stack with any other classes you have that grant you the Smite Evil ability for the purposes of determining any bonuses derived and its number of uses per day.

Divine Grace (Su): Starting at 2nd level you add your Charisma modifier to all saving throws.

Virtuous Mission (Su): Starting at 3rd level, creatures affected by your Virtue spell or spell-like ability are immune to disease, fear, and poison as long as their temporary hp last.

Debihuman
2011-10-23, 01:51 PM
Living spells are mindless and have no feats and skill and therefore can't qualify for Paragon of Virtue.

Debby

Yuki Akuma
2011-10-23, 01:53 PM
I am absolutely sure it was a joke.

Amechra
2011-10-23, 02:04 PM
I'm actually planning to do one for each Cantrip, Orison, and Fundamental of Shadow. Eventually.

I do have to say that I'm going to make a note saying that these "paragon" classes are not the paragons of a given race, but the Paragons of a very specific form of magic.

Consider that I'm giving each class at-will use of it's cantrip as a spell-like ability, and then they get extra charges to do stuff like (to use Ghost-Slayer Blade as an example),
-Shape their Disrupt Undead into a longsword for righteous pwnage of undead.
-Turn Undead, powered by these charges.

Alright, I do need help on the charges idea; I'm liking the idea that you gain a charge by using your cantrip, up to a certain amount, and then...

Cantrip Focus? Like a psionic focus, but when you use it, it casts a low level spell/mystery from a short list? Like expending Message to use Ventriliquism, or Lullaby to use Sleep, or something along those lines.

And no, this was inspired by scanning the net for cantrip-based classes and finding that they all SUCKED.

EDIT: You know what? I'll release a book with all of these in it, along with some feats, a couple PrCs to blend cantrip usage with some other stuff, maybe a race or two... Call it the Tome of Minor Magics.

How does that sound?

Morph Bark
2011-10-23, 02:17 PM
I'm actually planning to do one for each Cantrip, Orison, and Fundamental of Shadow. Eventually.

...

EDIT: You know what? I'll release a book with all of these in it, along with some feats, a couple PrCs to blend cantrip usage with some other stuff, maybe a race or two... Call it the Tome of Minor Magics.

How does that sound?

If you do that, you can expect me to make you a supplement for Inori. :smallamused:

Amechra
2011-10-23, 03:14 PM
What are Inori?

And basically, here is the list of cantrips/orisons I'll eventually be doing as of this moment; I'll have to contact RoC about using his Fundamentals of Shadow (ToM is not Open Content, sadly), and I probably will stay away from homebrew'd cantrips and orisons (I'd like to keep the idea-borrowing to a minimum; saves a lot of hassle.)

-Acid Splash
-Arcane Mark
-Create Water
-Cure Minor Wounds
-Dancing Lights
-Daze
-Detect Magic
-Detect Poison
-Disrupt Undead
-Flare
-Ghost Sound
-Guidance
-Inflict Minor Wounds
-Know Direction
-Light
-Lullaby
-Mage Hand
-Mending
-Message
-Open/Close
-Prestidigitation
-Purify Food and Drink
-Ray of Frost
-Read Magic
-Resistance
-Styptic (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sb/20030419a)
-Summon Instrument
-Touch of Fatigue
-Virtue

So yeah, there are 29 Open Content cantrips/orisons that I know of... Now I'm looking for more.

Ziegander
2011-10-23, 04:41 PM
Living spells are mindless and have no feats and skill and therefore can't qualify for Paragon of Virtue.

Debby

It's uh... not meant to be taken by Living Spells... it's meant to be taken by anyone who qualifies. Like normal.

@Amechra: Looks like people are getting confused by the fact that you're calling these "Paragon" classes without having anything to do with races. You maybe should think about giving them some other title...

Amechra
2011-10-23, 05:19 PM
They will have a different name, by the way...

And good news, everybody! I've gotten permission to use the 22 Fundamentals from Descent of Shadow, which, considering the minor amount of overlap some have, is actually a bit lower; still, having between 40 and 50 3-level classes should be a goodly amount of work, on my part...

One thing I must throw out there; I will be doing this at least partially for profit.

This means that, once the book is written, I will release a free preview (which should still have maybe 5 3-level classes and maybe a PrC. In other words, it will be a nice taste), while the actual book will cost money.

Why? My family has a rather low income, and I have college to pay for.

The Underlord
2011-10-23, 05:44 PM
Prestidigitation would have to be turned into a five-level class or something. It's like the cantrip version of Wish.

How is Prestidigation so powerful?

Amechra
2011-10-23, 06:04 PM
It's less of a power thing and more of a versatility thing.

Believe me, Prestidigitation and a little forethought will get you through so many situations that you wouldn't even believe it...

But a good one is that it can make any food or drink palatable. In other words, those grubs you had to roast because someone forgot to memorize Create Food and Drink today? Tastes like the finest of feasts.

You can also color something any color you please. Make the Paladin's armor bright pink! Go ahead, do it!

You can also heat up or cool food and beverages, meaning that you can have your hot water decaf coffee anywhere you go.

In closing, it isn't strong, it's useful.

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-23, 06:18 PM
And let's not forget it can create crude objects! Seriously, cast it, create rock, levitate said rock in front of someone running (I've seen this done to great effect). It's not powerful, but it's one of the most useful cantrips there is.

Morph Bark
2011-10-23, 06:36 PM
How is Prestidigation so powerful?

Worded correctly, Prestidigitation can basically copy any other cantrip for 1 hour.

Ziegander
2011-10-23, 06:57 PM
Prestidigitation would have to be turned into a five-level class or something. It's like the cantrip version of Wish.

I've never understood this position myself. It literally says, "Finally, a prestidigitation lacks the power to duplicate any other spell effects."

The only useful thing I've ever heard anyone using Prestidigitation for is making poisoned food taste really great. Of course, Detect Poison is also a cantrip and doesn't require a taste test.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-23, 07:02 PM
I've never understood this position myself. It literally says, "Finally, a prestidigitation lacks the power to duplicate any other spell effects."

The only useful thing I've ever heard anyone using Prestidigitation for is making poisoned food taste really great. Of course, Detect Poison is also a cantrip and doesn't require a taste test.

Well, just like illusions, prestidigitation requires that you come up with your own uses. For instance, you can deliver a small nick to a man's neck and have him bleed out. The nick itself would not be that noticeable without serious inspection, and the blood can be completely washed off with prestidigitation, which can buy you quite a bit of time after assassinating someone to put as much space between you and the town you killed him in.

Yuki Akuma
2011-10-23, 07:05 PM
Prestidigitation can't deal damage.

Amechra
2011-10-23, 07:42 PM
The nick would be you using a needle or something.

Ziegander
2011-10-23, 07:53 PM
That's absurd. That's basically magical tea party because there are no game rules for such an attack and because the situation in which you would use them, if there were any, requires meticulous care and precision to carry out so much that the role prestidigitation plays is incredibly minor.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-23, 07:59 PM
That's absurd. That's basically magical tea party because there are no game rules for such an attack and because the situation in which you would use them, if there were any, requires meticulous care and precision to carry out so much that the role prestidigitation plays is incredibly minor.

Er...but the thing is, the people who like using prestidigitation enjoy the meticulous care and precision required to use it.

Ziegander
2011-10-23, 08:07 PM
Er...but the thing is, the people who like using prestidigitation enjoy the meticulous care and precision required to use it.

Sure, but claiming that prestidigitation is like the cantrip version of wish because you can do stuff with it that is equal parts "make up rules" and "do a bunch of non-prestidigitation related stuff that requires time, luck, and probably money" seems really disingenuous. We're talking about why prestidigitation is good, not why it's fun.

radmelon
2011-10-23, 08:51 PM
Who says it can't be both? :smallconfused:

Amechra
2011-10-25, 08:57 PM
Just going to say...

I just made the Virtue class. It is pleasantly powerful, as long as you are focusing on making a gishy character.

To compete with it, I made a Spark-based Pyromaniac (burn, steel door, burn!), and a Haunting Fey Aspect minor fey prince class.

Yes, these are going to be strong... because they are cantrips, damnitall!

Realms of Chaos
2011-10-25, 11:53 PM
Sure, but claiming that prestidigitation is like the cantrip version of wish because you can do stuff with it that is equal parts "make up rules" and "do a bunch of non-prestidigitation related stuff that requires time, luck, and probably money" seems really disingenuous. We're talking about why prestidigitation is good, not why it's fun.

Prestidigitation, so far as I am aware, is "good" because it is fun.

From what I have heard, few people actually say that prestidigitation is good because it's powerful or useful. Likewise, when people compare it to wish, I doubt that they're saying that it can do anything (as you said, it specifically can't copy other spells). Rather, prestidigitation is like wish in that anything that doesn't go elsewhere likely goes here. If you want a summon an albino alpaca for whatever reason and there is no spell to do so, most DMs I know of would allow you to use a wish spell to get that alpaca. Similarly, if you need to tie your shoes or do some similarly minor task for which no other spell exists, someone might turn to prestidigitation.

Much as the text of Wish gives you wiggle room not to choose from the specific list of options and instead "make a wish", so too does prestidigitation give several examples of things that it can do that don't seem to fit under its previously described powers and thus give you some wiggle room to "perform minor magic".

If you insist upon a use, however, Tome and Blood expands the explicit list of what prestidigitation can do and transforming one fine object into another of a similar material was one of the options, I do believe. The transmutation of choice, if I recall correctly, involved turning the tumblers of a lock to mercury.

TravelLog
2011-10-26, 12:34 AM
Can't wait to see all these finished. Did you decide not to do Amanuensis?

Amechra
2011-10-26, 02:35 AM
I'm planning on selling the book, so I have to only use the Open Content cantrips.

Sorry.

Though, I could whip up one for Amanuensis, so you people can have a sneak peek...

Later, though, later.