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View Full Version : Poison [D&D 3.5 Skill] [WIP, PEACH]



Zaq
2011-10-22, 04:31 PM
Premise: In 3.5, poisons take way too much effort, are way too costly, and generally don't work very well. They're also very swingy, and they just aren't that satisfying. I'm aiming to make poisons more accessible without making them so all-or-nothing. I'm very inexperienced at homebrewing, so please, feel free to offer whatever criticism you see fit, though I'd prefer it to at least be constructive. I am cribbing a bit from 4e here . . . players of 4e will recognize poison damage and ongoing damage. This is intentional; I like them. (Basically, creatures immune to poison would also be immune to poison damage.) I'm also looking to make poisons primarily do damage, not stat damage . . . this will hopefully reduce their “swinginess,” make them feel less all-or-nothing, and make them more relevant on a round-by-round basis.

A few other design notes: This is meant to be mostly equipment-independent. I've never met a GM who would say "no, you can't even try to stop your friend from bleeding out; you don't have a healing kit." It's generally assumed that even if you don't have something good enough for the +2, someone trained in Heal has something they can use to make a halfway decent Heal check. Likewise, someone with ranks in Poison is assumed to have enough reagents lying around to whip something up . . . and part of that training is being able to MacGuyver whatever you have handy into something toxic.

Note: This is NOT meant to replace as-written poisons. Old-style poisons still exist. You can buy a bottle of drow juice, smear it on your pointy stick, and stab someone with it, all without taking a single rank in the new Poison skill. This is meant to augment, not replace.

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Class Skills: Rogues, Ninjas, Rangers, Scouts, Shadowcasters, and Lurks have Poison as a class skill. Of the classes I did not mention, any class with Heal as a class skill gets Poison as a class skill. Any class that gets Survival as a class skill may swap it out in favor of Poison.

Poison: (WIS, trained only) You are adept at crafting and using combat poisons. You can make a long-lasting poison with one minute of work, or you can make a short-lasting poison as a standard action. A long-lasting poison is applied to a weapon and lasts for 24 hours or until it strikes a target. A short-lasting poison is applied to a weapon and lasts for one minute or until it strikes a target. You may have a number of long-lasting doses of poison available equal to your WIS mod (minimum 1) plus 1/4 of your ranks in Poison (rounded up). [This is purely mechanical, but I can't think of a good way to fluff it.] There is no inherent limit to how many doses of short-lasting poison you may have at once, though obviously, you can only make so many before they decay and become nontoxic. A single weapon that is not a piece of ammunition can hold two doses of poison created with the Poison skill at once (in any combination of short and long), though each hit only applies one dose. A single piece of ammunition can only hold one dose. Poisons not created with the Poison skill are not affected by this limit and do not interact with short or long poisons. When you strike a creature with a weapon coated with a dose of poison made through the Poison skill, you can choose which, if any, of the poisons to apply, though you can use no more than one per strike.

All poisons created with the Poison skill are injury poisons, unless noted otherwise.

You do not run the risk of poisoning yourself with poisons you create through the Poison skill. If you give a weapon coated with a poison created through this skill to another creature, that creature runs the risk of being exposed to the poison if they do not have at least half as many ranks in Poison as you do, rounded down. Any time such a creature draws such a weapon, attacks with it, or misses with it, they have a 10% chance of being exposed to (and needing to save against) the poison on the weapon. This replaces the normal 5% chance of poisoning one's self; toxins created through the Poison skill are more volatile and riskier than other poisons.

When a weapon coated with short-lasting poison strikes a target, the target must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC: your Poison check result – 5) or take damage. The amount of damage taken is dependent on your check result, as shown below. [Note: This isn't finished. Comments welcome.]

Damage done by short-lasting poisons: I'm not sure how to balance these yet, but I'm looking at Iaijutsu Focus as a model. Basically, short-lasting poisons will do a handful of d6s of poison damage based on your result, but I'm not sure how much is fair yet. Would using the Iaijutsu Focus table be appropriate? Tentatively, that would be 1d6 for a check of 10-14, then +1d6 for every 5 thereafter (2d6 for 15-19, 3d6 for 20-24, etc.), up to a max of 9d6 at 50.

When a weapon coated with a dose of long-lasting poison hits a target, that target must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC = your Poison check result – 5) or take ongoing poison damage based on your check result. (Ongoing damage is automatically dealt to a target at the start of each of its turns, like the opposite of fast healing.) The amount of damage is [note: will eventually be] noted below. Ongoing damage dealt by a long-lasting poison lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1) + 1/4 your ranks in Poison (rounded up). This damage can be stopped by a Heal check (made as a standard action) with a DC equal to your Poison check result. If the target receives magical healing, the source of the magical healing may make a Heal check to stop the poison. The DC is the same, but the one doing the healing receives a bonus on the Heal check equal to the spell level of the healing effect (for example, Cure Moderate Wounds is a level 2 spell, so it would apply a +2 bonus to the Heal check). If the effect is not a spell, apply the equivalent to the spell level (power level, utterance level, etc.), if possible. [This is poorly worded. Help?] If a creature is suffering from the effects of multiple doses of long-lasting poison, only the most damaging one applies. A separate Heal check must be made to negate each, and if the most damaging one's duration expires, the target must still deal with any remaining ones. A creature making a Heal check to remove long-lasting poison may choose which long-lasting poison effect to remove. As a full-round action, a creature suffering the effects of a long-lasting poison may make a Fortitude save with a +5 bonus against each long-lasting poison affecting them; success removes that instance of long-lasting poison. Long-lasting poison does not affect short-acting poison; although a single attack can only deal one dose of poison, taking long-lasting poison damage does not increase or decrease the amount of damage a target can take from short-lasting poison.

Damage dealt by long-lasting poisons: The idea is that the damage dealt will be higher but slower than the damage dealt by short-lasting poisons. As a baseline, I'm thinking that the damage dealt will be 5 damage times (the number of d6s an equivalent check would make a short-acting dose do, minus one). For example, if a short-acting check would give you 2d6 damage, a long-lasting check would give you 5 ongoing. If it would do 4d6, you get 15 ongoing. The damage is more reliable, but since D&D prioritizes spike damage over bleed damage, both have a reason to exist.

[Design notes: You're going to have long-lasting poisons ready to go when you start combat, but you're going to have to spend an action prepping a short-lasting poison, unless you have an ambush or a buff round. Therefore, long-lasting poisons are slightly less useful, since it's better to kill an opponent now than to slowly let them bleed to death. Still, to keep the investment relevant, the amount of damage dealt by long-lasting poisons is likely to be higher than that dealt by short-lasing poisons . . . assuming that the fight goes on that long, and that the target doesn't kill you or heal themselves before the poison stops.]

Special: If you have 12 or more ranks in Poison, you can affect creatures normally immune to poison with your poisons, though they get a +10 on their Fortitude saves to resist it. Creatures that are normally immune to Fortitude saves, like undead or constructs, are still affected.

Taking 10 and taking 20: If you have a poisoner's kit, you may take 10 with the Poison skill. Without a poisoner's kit, you may not do so. You may take 20 to create short-lasting poisons, though you may not do so to create long-lasting poisons. [Note: Since long-lasting poisons are created well in advance, the time requirement needed to take 20 isn't much of a drawback, and I can't think of a way to make this more elegant.] Note that taking 20 to create a short-lasting poison takes 2 minutes, but the poison only lasts for 1 minute thereafter.

Synergies: Heal and Survival each provide a synergy bonus to Poison. Poison provides a synergy bonus to Heal checks made to treat any kind of poison. At the GM's discretion, Poison may provide a synergy bonus to Knowledge: Nature checks made to identify poisons or venomous creatures.

Poisoner's Kit: A poisoner's kit costs 50 gp, weighs 2 pounds, and provides a +2 circumstance bonus to Poison checks. (It counts as a masterwork tool; there are no other masterwork tools for Poison.) Without a poisoner's kit, it is impossible to take 10 on Poison checks. A poisoner's kit is exhausted after 10 uses. If in a forest, swamp, or other area where the GM agrees that there are suitable raw materials, a character may replenish a poisoner's kit by making a Survival check. This takes 1 hour. If the character succeeds on a DC 15 Survival check, the poisoner's kit may be used one additional time before being exhausted. For every 5 points by which the Survival check exceeds 15, the poisoner's kit gains another use before being exhausted.

Special Poisoner's Kits: A poisoner's kit is illegal to own in many, though not all, civilized areas. A disguised poisoner's kit costs an additional 150 gp (total 200), but it is much harder to recognize for what it is. A character attempting to conceal a disguised poisoner's kit gets a +5 circumstance bonus on checks (usually Sleight of Hand, though others may apply) to do so. A licensed poisoner's kit is available in certain areas; licensed poisoner's kits are legal, but since they are meant to keep toxins under control, they are weaker than the real thing. A licensed poisoner's kit costs 75 gp, weighs 2 pounds, and provides a +1 circumstance bonus to Poison checks. This bonus does not stack with the bonus from a normal poisoner's kit. A licensed poisoner's kit is sufficient to take 10 on Poison checks. A licensed poisoner's kit may be made in disguised form, but there is usually little benefit to doing so.

Feats:

Note on Metapoison feats: A poison may only be affected by one Metapoison feat at a time, unless stated otherwise. Unless stated otherwise, all metapoisons function in addition to the normal effects of the poison. If a creature is struck by multiple different metapoisons, all of them apply, though as usual, only the most damaging one will do ongoing damage. Metapoisons do not stack with themselves (for instance, a target affected by two doses of crippling poison only takes a –6 penalty to DEX, not a –12).

Expert Poisoner
Prereq: Poison 4 ranks
Benefit: Your poisons made with the Poison skill affect even creatures who are immune to poison or to Fortitude saves, though such creatures receive a +5 bonus on their Fortitude saves to resist your poisons. This has no effect on poisons you make or use by means other than the Poison skill.
Special: Once you have 12 or more ranks in Poison, such creatures receive no bonus on their Fortitude saves. This supercedes the normal effects of reaching 12 ranks in Poison.
[Design notes: A feat is, in my mind, a sufficient cost to be able to say “no, my character concept is NOT useless against an entire large set of enemies.”]

Deadly Poisoner
Prereq: Poison 9 ranks
Benefit: You may create a dose of long-lasting poison that functions as a short-acting poison. This poison lasts for 24 hours or until it strikes a target, but an affected target must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC = your check result – 5) or take damage as though struck by one of your short-acting poisons. You may use this feat a number of times per day equal to your Wisdom modifier, minimum 1.

Insidious Poisoner
Prereq: Poison 6 ranks
Benefit: Your poisons are, at your option, contact poisons rather than injury poisons. When you attack a creature with a weapon coated with a poison you made through the Poison skill, if you miss the target but would have still hit the target's touch AC, the target is exposed to your poison anyway.

Master Poisoner
Benefit: Poison is always a class skill for you. If you have previously purchased ranks in Poison as a cross-class skill, you immediately gain additional ranks in Poison as if it had always been a class skill for you. If Poison is already a class skill for any of your classes, you get a +2 bonus to Poison checks. In addition, you can create 2 additional doses of long-lasting poison at once, and your long-lasting poisons affect their targets for 2 additional rounds.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Its effects stack. Every time after the first that you take this feat, you gain the ability to make 2 additional doses of long-lasting poison, your long-lasting poisons last for 2 additional rounds, and you gain a +2 bonus on Poison checks, since Poison will necessarily be a class skill for you.

Assassin's Poison
Prereq: Sneak Attack +2d6, Poison 6 ranks
Benefit: When you successfully deal sneak attack damage on an attack that delivers a poison made with the Poison skill, the target takes a penalty to the Fortitude save made to resist the poison equal to the number of sneak attack dice you rolled.

Simple Venoms
Prereq: Poison 6 ranks
Benefit: At your option, you can make your toxins more stable than normal. Other creatures do not run the risk of exposing themselves to your poisons when using weapons coated with poisons you make through the Poison skill.

Hasty Venoms
Prereq: Poison 4 ranks
Benefit: You can create and apply a short-acting poison as a swift action, rather than as a standard action. You can do so a number of times per day equal to 1/4 your ranks in Poison, rounded up.

Tricky Poisoner
Benefit: You may use Intelligence instead of Wisdom for Poison checks. The number of long-lasting poisons you can create at once, as well as the duration thereof, are based on Intelligence instead of Wisdom. You also gain a +3 bonus to Poison checks. Finally, Poison is always a class skill for you. If you have previously purchased ranks in Poison as a cross-class skill, you immediately gain additional ranks in Poison as if it had always been a class skill for you.
[Design notes: Not everyone has or wants to have WIS. This feat gives you a choice. The +3 bonus is thrown in there to make it have a slight benefit aside from just being a feat tax for non-WIS-heavy characters. If you want a +3 bonus but are happy with WIS, that's what Skill Focus is for. The "always a class skill" thing is there to maximize accessibility . . . basically, I don't want you to have to spend more than one feat getting Poison on your character. Yes, it's redundant with some other feats, but that's intentional.]

Murderous Poisoner
Prereq: Poison 9 ranks
Benefit: When you use a short-acting poison on a melee weapon, that poison stays viable for the entire round, instead of simply being used up after the first hit. The opponent must make a Fortitude save at the normal DC to resist the poison. Each hit after the first deals 1d6 less poison damage, minimum 1d6. The poison runs out at the end of your turn (attacks made between your turn and the next one, such as attacks of opportunity, do not gain the benefit of that dose of poison).
[Notes: I know that this is horribly worded. I'm basically trying to say that your short-lasting poisons last for an entire full attack instead of just one swing, but each successive hit does less damage.]

Brutal Poisoner
Prereq: Poison 9 ranks
Benefit: When you use a short-acting poison, you may reroll any dice of damage done by the poison that have a result of 1, though you must take the second result.

Painless Poisoner
Prereq: Poison 6 ranks, Heal 4 ranks
Benefit: At your option, you can make your poisons painless. Creatures affected by your long-lasting poisons must succeed on a Heal, Poison, or Sense Motive check (DC = 10 + your ranks in Poison) to notice that they are affected . . . until they fall unconscious, of course. This Heal, Poison, or Sense Motive check takes no action and is made automatically when exposed to your poison.
[Design notes: Not sure about this one. It's thematically appropriate, but it doesn't really seem worthwhile. Can you think of any other effects I can add to make this worth a feat, or is it not even worth bothering?]

Enervating Poison [Metapoison]
Prereq: Poison 6 ranks
Benefit: When you create a long-lasting poison, you may voluntarily accept a –5 penalty to your Poison check to make an enervating poison. A creature affected by an enervating poison takes a –6 penalty to Strength while affected by your long-lasting poison. If you accept a –10 penalty (which replaces the –5 penalty), the target's base speed (all movement modes) is halved while affected by the poison, in addition to taking the penalty to Strength.

Hallucinogenic Poison [Metapoison]
Prereq: Poison 9 ranks
Benefit: When you create a long-lasting poison, you may voluntarily accept a –5 penalty to your Poison check to make a hallucinogenic poison. A creature affected by a hallucinogenic poison treats all other creatures as having concealment (20% miss chance) for the duration of the poison. If you accept a –10 penalty (which replaces the –5 penalty), the target is also treated as confused (as the spell Confusion) for the duration of the poison, but the poison's duration is halved. This is in addition to the concealment effect. Both of these effects are mind-affecting, but if you have the ability to affect creatures normally immune to poison, you also have the ability to affect creatures normally immune to mind-affecting effects with a hallucinogenic poison.

Crippling Poison [Metapoison]
Prereq: Poison 6 ranks
Benefit: When you create a long-lasting poison, you may voluntarily accept a –5 penalty to your Poison check to make a crippling poison. A creature affected by a crippling poison takes a –6 penalty to Dexterity for the duration of the poison. If you voluntarily accept a –10 penalty (which replaces the –5 penalty), whenever the target takes damage (other than your ongoing poison damage) while affected by the crippling poison, the target must succeed on a Balance check (DC = 10 + damage taken) or fall prone. This is in addition to the penalty to Dexterity.

Toxic Magic
Prereq: Poison 9 ranks, Spellcraft 4 ranks
Benefit: Any weapon that you wield that is coated with a dose of poison that you created through the Poison skill is treated as though affected by the Greater Magic Weapon spell, with a caster level equal to your caster level (if any) or your ranks in Poison minus 3, whichever is higher. Other characters wielding your poisoned weapons do not gain this benefit. This is a supernatural effect.
[Notes: Since a weapon can only hold two doses of poison at once, characters who invest heavily into Poison will often want to carry around a bunch of spare weapons with doses of poison on them. This feat ensures that those weapons won't totally suck. If a character chooses to use this feat to get free enhancement bonuses by never expending the poison . . . eh, let them. A feat and a whole bunch of skill points are a fair price to pay for that sort of thing. It's just a 3rd level spell, after all.]

So, what do you think? There's a LOT of room for improvement, and pretty much all of the numbers are just pulled out of thin air. None of them are sacred. Obviously, the organization and formatting are also quite lacking. As I said at the beginning, this is my first semi-major homebrew attempt, so really, the more feedback I get, the better.

I'm envisioning something like this: a character with a focus on the Poison skill will have a few long-lasting poisons at the ready to spread around the battlefield, giving them a way to turn skill points into combat relevance. If they're really into it, metapoisons will give them the ability to debuff, not just damage. Short-acting poisons are for ambushes, surprise rounds, and desperate gambits; the standard action cost is huge, though the payoff should be decent. The Fort save to resist poison is pretty difficult, but it's meant to be . . . once again, we're not doing 2d4 CON damage here. The player is investing in an alternate source of damage, and while there is a chance of failure, the player should succeed more often than not, except against especially resilient foes. Thoughts?

ThiefInTheNight
2011-10-22, 08:32 PM
Why a new skill instead of extending Craft (Poisonmaking)? I mean, it's Wis and Trained-Only, plus there's the whole "everyone gets Craft as a class skill" thing, so those are differences, but at first brush it seems weird to do it this way.

That said, I applaud the concept in general, and from a quick skim I like what I see.

Have you read Arsenic and Old Lace (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0), by the way? Not entirely relevant but if you're interested in the subject it's a good read.

~Corvus~
2011-10-23, 12:25 AM
Hm... It's a really interesting idea that I share MUCH of your own sentiments with: I think poisons are really cool, and definitely could use some revising!

You should definitely take a look at ThiefinTheNight's link to Arsenic and Old Lace, since it provides a wonderful rundown of how and when poisons are effective, as well as a number of classes that use poisons and their sourcebooks.

The largest trouble with poisons is that after about level 13, the majority of monsters thrown at players are immune, so I like that you fix this problem.

Honestly, the Poison entry as it stands seems to be a little TL;DR prone. I hope you aren't going to streamline poisons into (mostly) injury-based poisons. However, I am very interested to see how you take this!

Okay, so I'm going to assume you might not want to look through al the sourcebooks, so here goes what I have in my own collection of files:
Fabricate and Minor Creation bypass poison costs for plants, and as such the Factotum and the Psion (Dungeonscape and XPH, respectively) are going to give some crazy competition. Do you have a way to circumvent this advantage?
Complete Scoundrel Pg 80 gives some wonderful feats.
Drow of the Underdark has a rather large number of helpful options throughout the book. I strongly recommend that book.
Complete Champion has a few things... Venom's Gift (pg 63) is a cool feat available to Druids through Wildshape and would merit looking at... And Twilight's Green (pg 133) is an herb similar to Belladonna.
Serpent's Venom is a feat from the Complete Divine (pg 84) that allows poison to be added.
Look up Venomfriend (Book of Vile Darkness, not sure what page number) and Spiderbite (Player's Guide to Faerűn 176) for another class-level poison feature.

Other than that, I suggest you look here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=2db4qc2neamdjkgocaa1776q54&topic=4854.msg162790#msg162790) since it lists poisons by type and DC and it classifies them by type of acquisition.
It is interesting to note, however, the discrepancy between, say, yew poison in D&D (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/al/20041208a) and yew poison in real life (http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/vetmed/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=178804). You might want to take that into account.

Zaq
2011-10-23, 03:56 AM
To answer both of your questions, the way that my Poison skill interacts with existing poisons is that, well, it doesn't. As I said (though I understand if it got lost in the wall of text), existing poisons are unchanged. A character with the Poison skill can still brew up some Black Lotus Extract and smear it on their blade, and a character without the Poison skill can do the same exactly as well. I didn't use Craft (Poisonmaking) because Craft (Poisonmaking) is where old-style poisons come from, and those haven't changed. They're simply separate. As such, a character with (say) Psionic Minor Creation doesn't have a direct advantage over a character with the Poison skill, because they're doing different things. The Poison skill is fundamentally about doing damage, though Metapoison feats mix that up a bit. Old-style poisons are primarily about doing stat damage, which is their blessing and their curse.

I'm well aware of the contents of Arsenic and Old Lace (in fact, one of my builds is in there—Aesc Duan Dee, to be specific), and the problems outlined therein were one reason I felt the need to write this. I've tried to address a lot of the weaknesses of poisons, and in many ways, I did that by altering some of the fundamental assumptions about how they work. They don't always have to be two shots of save-versus-stat-damage spaced one minute apart. They might just be a burst of pain, or a bleed-style drain effect. By simplifying them and making them closer to existing ways of doing damage, I removed the need for them to be so rare, or expensive, or easy to resist.

Any other thoughts? I agree that I'm long-winded, but I had a lot of rules to lay out, and I think they're all reasonably important. Any thoughts on the obviously poorly worded parts, or the feats, or the damage rates?

~Corvus~
2011-10-23, 08:53 AM
I didn't use Craft (Poisonmaking) because Craft (Poisonmaking) is where old-style poisons come from, and those haven't changed. They're simply separate. As such, a character with (say) Psionic Minor Creation doesn't have a direct advantage over a character with the Poison skill, because they're doing different things. The Poison skill is fundamentally about doing damage, though Metapoison feats mix that up a bit. Old-style poisons are primarily about doing stat damage, which is their blessing and their curse.


Okay, that's helpful. The Poison skill you're aiming for gives a manner of Poison in the style that Diablo 2 gives Necromancers, Javazons and Assassins poison skills.


I've tried to address a lot of the weaknesses of poisons, and in many ways, I did that by altering some of the fundamental assumptions about how they work. They don't always have to be two shots of save-versus-stat-damage spaced one minute apart. They might just be a burst of pain, or a bleed-style drain effect. By simplifying them and making them closer to existing ways of doing damage, I removed the need for them to be so rare, or expensive, or easy to resist.


That's too bad. I believe it would be incredibly cool if, for example, the stat damage had a minimum amount despite a successful save. This makes sense, I think: eat three or four leaves of a Belladonna plant, and whether or not you have an immune system that is as absorbant as activated charcoal, you're bound to be affected, albeit a lot less.


Any other thoughts? I agree that I'm long-winded, but I had a lot of rules to lay out, and I think they're all reasonably important. Any thoughts on the obviously poorly worded parts, or the feats, or the damage rates?

Trained only is fantastic. It limits others to using the standard craft(poison) skill.

Why is the skill only Wisdom-based (as opposed to Wis or Int)? Assassins are going to be MAD if they want a good skill bonus, but...having it be a skill that's opposed to Heal makes a bit of sense, I guess. In any case, i'd like to see your reasoning there.

Your fluff is still operation on the assumption that this poison is...say...manufactured. Okay, fine, you want to keep that I imagine :smallamused: How about you use spell duration modifiers here? Instead of progressing by class levels, you use a table of skill check results. Long-lasting poisons use hours per iteration of the check result, shorter (more powerful?) ones use minutes per level, and the most virulent, potent and (ultimately) unstable poisons simply have durations of rounds per iteration.

Being able to choose which poisons of a weapon apply when you hit someone with a weapon coated with multiple poisons seems to me like being able to choose which effect or effects of a Prismatic Wall is going to affect a creature passing through it.

If you can poison other creatures with this poison and deal damage to them, why can't you poison and damage yourself? An expert rock-climber will still take damage from falling from great height: accidents happen. If said rock-climber is a monk, then that would be a function of his class, not his skill-level. Furthermore, many of the classes you grant the poison skill to have immunity to poisoning themselves as is. How about a base DC range that allows you avoid poisoning yourself (5 lower than the DC of making target poison?)

Iaijutsu Focus is a good meter of damage progression, I think. Remember that OA is actually 3.0, however. You could take the rogue's Sneak Attack table and convert it to skill tables and achieve roughly what is outlined on the table. Your metapoison abilities and immunity-breaking feats are wonderful here, allowing even old-time poison effects to work.

Instead of requiring a target to make a Fortitude save (which, under your feats, would seem to either allow said save or, in the case of no CON, be immediately affected) how about requiring the target to make a level check in a similar manner to how Intimidate works? This would give you a way of affecting non-poison immunes and still allow you to bypass poison immunity with a bit more difficulty, and make it feasible. Allowing a level 1 ninja with poison-skill bonus cheese (high wis, feats, maybe racial bonus to poison skills, etc) to afflict an Adamantine Golem with poison on a natural 20 would seem to be more in line with the party member who auto-slays a dragon with three consecutive natural 20s.

Taking 20 or 10 seems silly. If a Blacksmith could take 20 on crafting a sword, if a caster could take 20 on crafting an epic spell, if a character with heal could take 20 on a Healing check, if the Barbarian could just take 20 on an attack roll... I know, it's nice to think that one can achieve an automatic success, but part of the fun of D&D is that there is an inherent risk involved. Sure, okay, the rogue can take 20 to find traps, but that's because the trap is not going anywhere, and isn't going to fade away after some time unless of course the DM is tricking the players or he is running them through Tomb of Horrors.

I <3 your synergies. They SO work.

Your Poison kit fluff is pure win.

I <3 tables Add them where you know you should! :smallsmile:

Zaq
2011-10-24, 12:28 AM
Okay, that's helpful. The Poison skill you're aiming for gives a manner of Poison in the style that Diablo 2 gives Necromancers, Javazons and Assassins poison skills.

I was thinking as much the Ragnarok Online Assassin, but yeah, same concept.




That's too bad. I believe it would be incredibly cool if, for example, the stat damage had a minimum amount despite a successful save. This makes sense, I think: eat three or four leaves of a Belladonna plant, and whether or not you have an immune system that is as absorbant as activated charcoal, you're bound to be affected, albeit a lot less.

The thing is that damage is a hell of a lot easier to balance than stat damage. I can afford to be a lot freer with it. If this takes off, I might eventually include some feats or higher-level options to deal with stat damage and/or mix in old-style poisons, but since this is my first real attempt at homebrew, I'm keeping it simple.



Trained only is fantastic. It limits others to using the standard craft(poison) skill.

Why is the skill only Wisdom-based (as opposed to Wis or Int)? Assassins are going to be MAD if they want a good skill bonus, but...having it be a skill that's opposed to Heal makes a bit of sense, I guess. In any case, i'd like to see your reasoning there.

In my mind, Poison is a lot closer to Heal and Survival (hence the synergies) than anything else. It's basically an offshoot of the Heal skill. For folks who don't like WIS, I've included the feat Tricky Poisoner, which shifts Poison to being INT-based (in pretty much all ways), makes Poison always a class skill for you, and gives you a +3 bonus to it (so it's a feat tax, but at least it gives you something on top of it). It's basically my attempt at rolling several tax feats into one, while giving you a consolation prize. I didn't want to just make it a dual-stat skill straight up, since that kind of breaks a lot of system assumptions. Tricky Poisoner is my band-aid.

That said, you're right in that almost all of the classes I gave Poison to out of the box need INT more than WIS (Ninjas and Rangers are the only exceptions, really), so it might make more sense to make INT the rule and WIS the exception. WIS makes more sense to me from a fluff perspective, but INT might make more sense from a crunch perspective, which is what I really care about.


Your fluff is still operation on the assumption that this poison is...say...manufactured. Okay, fine, you want to keep that I imagine :smallamused: How about you use spell duration modifiers here? Instead of progressing by class levels, you use a table of skill check results. Long-lasting poisons use hours per iteration of the check result, shorter (more powerful?) ones use minutes per level, and the most virulent, potent and (ultimately) unstable poisons simply have durations of rounds per iteration.

Not quite sure what you mean in this paragraph. Nothing is based on your level directly, just your ranks or check result. Also, I went with the baseline assumption that a character who puts any effort into the Poison skill will succeed more often than not . . . but just how much they succeed by is not quite predetermined. I did kind of do what I think you're suggesting in your last sentence by dividing poisons into short-lasting and long-lasting, so I'm not really certain what you have in mind.


Being able to choose which poisons of a weapon apply when you hit someone with a weapon coated with multiple poisons seems to me like being able to choose which effect or effects of a Prismatic Wall is going to affect a creature passing through it.

A fair point, but I wanted you to be able to have more than one dose of poison on a weapon without having more than one dose per hit, and I couldn't think of a more elegant way to do it, given that if I make it "last on, first used" it always prioritizes short poisons, and if I make it "first on, first used" it always prioritizes long poisons. This at least keeps them on even footing on a round-by-round basis. It's a crunch issue, not a common sense issue. I'm open to countersuggestions.


If you can poison other creatures with this poison and deal damage to them, why can't you poison and damage yourself? An expert rock-climber will still take damage from falling from great height: accidents happen. If said rock-climber is a monk, then that would be a function of his class, not his skill-level. Furthermore, many of the classes you grant the poison skill to have immunity to poisoning themselves as is. How about a base DC range that allows you avoid poisoning yourself (5 lower than the DC of making target poison?)

Basically, because the "poisoning yourself" rules are a built-in critical fumble rule, and I consider those to be a failure of game design. A trained fighter shouldn't slice open their hand every twenty swings, and a trained poisoner shouldn't give themselves a quick dose of hemlock every twenty times they try. You're not immune to your own poisons (if someone steals a poisoned blade from you and stabs you with it, you're gonna regret it), but you're not at risk from your own hand.

Also, relatively few of those classes get poison use out of the box. Most of them have to spend a feat. I don't want any more feat taxes than there have to be.


Iaijutsu Focus is a good meter of damage progression, I think. Remember that OA is actually 3.0, however. You could take the rogue's Sneak Attack table and convert it to skill tables and achieve roughly what is outlined on the table. Your metapoison abilities and immunity-breaking feats are wonderful here, allowing even old-time poison effects to work.

I'm glad we mostly agree. It's risky to convert assumptions about class levels directly into skill tables, I think (my experiences with Truespeak have taught me that much), so if the Iaijutsu numbers aren't broke, I won't fix 'em. I'm glad that you like the feats.


Instead of requiring a target to make a Fortitude save (which, under your feats, would seem to either allow said save or, in the case of no CON, be immediately affected) how about requiring the target to make a level check in a similar manner to how Intimidate works? This would give you a way of affecting non-poison immunes and still allow you to bypass poison immunity with a bit more difficulty, and make it feasible. Allowing a level 1 ninja with poison-skill bonus cheese (high wis, feats, maybe racial bonus to poison skills, etc) to afflict an Adamantine Golem with poison on a natural 20 would seem to be more in line with the party member who auto-slays a dragon with three consecutive natural 20s.

Because the level 1 Ninja still isn't going to kill the adamantine golem, poison or no poison. The most you're going to get is 9d6 damage (assuming you can get a DC 50 at level 1!), or a few rounds of ongoing 45 damage (which, while excessive, is also not going to happen unless our hypothetical level 1 Ninja has a LOT of help). Remember, this isn't black lotus. It's just damage. Basically, if you invest in Poison, it should work more often than not, and just because your GM likes undead things doesn't mean that you shouldn't still be good at what you've invested in. My intent with the immunity-breaking abilities was that creatures normally immune to Fort saves have to roll the Fort save anyway, though they might get a bonus. (If that's not clear from the wording, I'd love some help clarifying it.) It throws a wrench in the works and makes it harder to poison them, but you're still useful, and you can still use your big source of bonus damage. Remember that you're very unlikely to get Poison to trigger on every hit, not that such things were the matter in question. I don't see what the benefit of the level check would be, to be honest.


Taking 20 or 10 seems silly. If a Blacksmith could take 20 on crafting a sword, if a caster could take 20 on crafting an epic spell, if a character with heal could take 20 on a Healing check, if the Barbarian could just take 20 on an attack roll... I know, it's nice to think that one can achieve an automatic success, but part of the fun of D&D is that there is an inherent risk involved. Sure, okay, the rogue can take 20 to find traps, but that's because the trap is not going anywhere, and isn't going to fade away after some time unless of course the DM is tricking the players or he is running them through Tomb of Horrors.

Taking 10 doesn't bother me. Remember, you have to have a specialized set of materials to do it, and you have to keep buying them or making Survival checks to refill them. Yes, they're cheap, but I don't want to make taking 10 impossible. Just not automatic. If I cook myself a ham omelette every morning, I don't really have to think about it too hard, and as long as I have the proper ingredients, it's not going to be too different from day to day if I'm just running on autopilot. That's what taking 10 is. If I'm in a hurry, or if I'm trying to make it special and impress someone, there will be a lot more variation, because I wouldn't be taking 10. Same thing here. If you make your batch of poisons several times a day, day in and day out, you'll be pretty much the same at it over and over, unless you try to get fancy or don't have the right tools.

Remember that you won't be able to take 10 on making short-acting poisons once combat's started (at least not without Skill Mastery). It's just a baseline, and it provides players some protection against bad rolls screwing them over.

Taking 20 is technically possible for Poison, but I've intentionally made it very impractical. It's flat-out impossible for long-lasting poisons (because I said so, basically), and for short-lasting poisons . . . well, it takes 2 minutes to make, and it's only viable for 1 minute thereafter. The number of cases in which you'll be able to predict when combat will happen to within a three-minute window is . . . pretty small. I'm contemplating adding that taking 20 requires exhausting a fresh poisoner's kit, but that might be adding insult to injury. You think I should just forbid it straight up?


I <3 your synergies. They SO work.

Your Poison kit fluff is pure win.

Thanks! Glad to hear I got some stuff right.


I <3 tables Add them where you know you should! :smallsmile:

I'll definitely do so sooner or later. I just didn't want to spend the effort making them before I had some kind of approval that the numbers weren't absolute crap.

Thanks for all your feedback!

I also added a new feat: Toxic Magic. It's meant to address the problem of needing a bunch of different weapons to hold all your doses of poison. Good idea? Bad idea? Suggestions for improvement?

Cieyrin
2011-10-24, 09:33 AM
I like what I see. Akin to the Iron Heroes Poison feat chain though perhaps not as granular.

I got a bit confused reading the short term vs. long term poison, as the long term effects are immediately after the short term before talking about the initial part about long term, so reshuffling text about would be good.

For Painless Poison, it made me immediately think of the Mosquito's Bite Skill Trick, so perhaps refactoring it into a skill trick would work best for what you intend without trying to pump it to be worth the feat slot. You could probably explore that space further by shuffling a couple of the feats (Hasty and Murderous seem like they'd work nicely) over into Skill tricks quite nicely, should you decide to pursue that path.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

maxrz
2012-07-20, 02:36 AM
Rogues have to spend feats to make sneak attack work on separate kinds of monsters. There's a different feat to be able to sneak attack constructs than to sneak attack undead for example. Why does poison get one feat?