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View Full Version : Rogue (re-tool) {Please Critique} (2.0 on latest post)



Kenneth
2011-10-23, 08:33 PM
ROGUE

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|+0|+1|+2|+0| Dodge, sneak attack +1d6, Trap finding

2nd|+1|+1|+3|+0| Vexing flanker, Perceptive+1

3rd|+2|+2|+3|+1|sneak attack +2d6, Trap Sense +1

4th|+2|+2|+4|+1| Fast Stride, Eviscerate, Nimble +1

5th|+3|+2|+4|+1| Fade, sneak attack +3d6

6th|+4|+3|+5|+2|Trap Sense +2, Strike of Deception, Perceptive+2, Hemorrhage

7th|+4|+3|+5|+2| Distracting Strike, sneak attack +4d6, Nimble +2

8th|+5|+3|+6|+2| Uncanny Dodge, Special Talent

9th|+6|+4|+6|+3| sneak attack +5d6, Trap Sense +3, Touch of Death

10th|+6|+4|+7|+3| Baffling Defender, Perceptive+3, Nimble +3

11th|+7|+4|+7|+3|sneak attack +6d6, Special Talent, Evasion

12th|+8|+5|+8|+4|Trap Sense +4, Opportunist

13th|+8|+5|+8|+4|sneak attack +7d6, Nimble +4

14th|+9|+6|+9|+4| Special Talent, Perceptive+4

15th|+10|+6|+9|+5|sneak attack +8d6, Trap Sense +5

16th|+10|+6|+10|+5| Fountain of Blood, Nimble +5

17th|+11|+7|+10|+5|sneak attack +9d6, Special Talent

18th|+12|+7|+11|+6|Trap Sense +6, Perceptive+5

19th|+12|+7|+11|+6|sneak attack +10d6, Nimble +6

20th|+13|+8|+12|+6|Special Talent, Kinesthetics

[/table]

Alignment
Any except Lawful Good.
Hit Die
d6.
Class Skills
The rogue’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level
(8 + Int modifier) ×4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level
8 + Int modifier.
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the rogue.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the broad sword, hand axe, hand crossbow, Long sword, sap, shortbow, and short sword. Rogues are proficient with leather armor, Moon-steel chain shirt, Studded Leather and padded armor, but not with shields.

Dodge:{Ex} The rogue gaisn Dodge as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the requirments.

Sneak Attack:{Ex} If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from his attack, he can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time his target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks his target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. He cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty.

A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

Trapfinding: {Ex}
Rogues (and only rogues) can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20.
Finding a nonmagical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.
Rogues (and only rogues) can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it. The spell Arcane Lock is considered a magical trap for the use of this ability.
A rogue who beats a trap’s DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with his party) without disarming it.

Vexing Flanker: {Ex}
The rogue gains a +2 insight bonus to all attack rolls while flanking a target

Perceptive: {Ex}
The Rogue gains a bonus to his Spot, Forgery, Listen, Search, and Sense Motive checks equal to the number listed in the above table.

Trap Sense: {Ex}
At 3rd level, a Rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts him to danger from traps, giving him a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise to +2 when the Rogue reaches 6th level, to +3 when he reaches 9th level, to +4 when he reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level.

Fast Stride:{Ex}
As a swift action the Rogue can Increase his movement speed by +10 feet this effect lasts untill the end of the round.

Eviscerate:{Ex}
Upon a successful Sneak Attack, a Rogue can chose to instead of deal the full amount of Sneak attack damage at once, deal one third (rounded up) of that damage over the next 3 rounds on the rogue's inititaive. For instance a 7th level rogue can chose to deal 2d6 damage over 3 rounds, instead of dealing 4d6 damage in one attack.

Nimble:{Ex}
A Rogue gains a bonus to his Balance, Climb and Initiative equal to the number listed. In addition a Rogue also gains the number listed as a dodge bonus to his AC.

Fade:{Ex}
Upon using a full round action a Rouge can blend in with the shadows thereby gaining concealment. This abilty does not work in bright light such as that produce by the Daylight spell or in full daylight. Nor does this ability work if the Rogue is suffering from bleed damage or any other form of ongoing damage, such as Melf's Acid Arrow.

Strike Of Deception: {Ex}
A Rogue's first successful attack against a target gives him a 15% true miss chance against that target and only that target for 1 round.

Hemorrhage: {Ex}
A Rogue's Sneak Attack causes the target to bleed for a number of D4s equal to half the number of sneak attack dice over the next 2 rounds rounds on his initaitive, this is bleed damage. For instance an 11th level Rogue deals 3d4 bleed damage for 2 rounds. This ability also allows Allies to deal an extra point of damage for every 4th Level of the Rogue to the afflicted target.

Distracting Strike:{Ex}
A Rogue's Successful attacks render the target flat flooted for the Rogue's future attacks against that target (and only the rouge)

Uncanny Dodge: {Ex}
Starting at 8th level, a rogue can react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized, and you are still conisidered flat-footed, you just do not suffer the penalties.

Special Talent: {Ex}
On attaining 8th level, and at every three levels thereafter (11th, 14th, 17th, and 10th), a rogue gains a special ability of his choice from among the following options.

Crippling Strike {Ex}
A rogue with this ability can sneak attack opponents with such precision that his blows weaken and hamper them. An opponent damaged by one of his sneak attacks also takes 2 points of Strength damage. Ability points lost to damage return on their own at the rate of 1 point per day for each damaged ability.

Defensive Roll {Ex}
The rogue can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than he otherwise would. Once per day, when he would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by damage in combat (from a weapon or other blow, not a spell or special ability), the rogue can attempt to roll with the damage. To use this ability, the rogue must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, he takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, he takes full damage. He must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute his defensive roll—if he is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC, he can’t use this ability.

Skill Mastery {Ex}
The rogue becomes so certain in the use of certain skills that he can use them reliably even under adverse conditions.
Upon gaining this ability, he selects a number of skills equal to 1 + his Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, he may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent him from doing so. A rogue may gain this special ability multiple times, selecting additional skills for it to apply to each time.

Offensive Defense {Ex}
When a Rogue with this talent hits a creature with a melee attack that deals sneak attack damage, the Rogue gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each sneak attack die rolled for one round

Sniper's Eye {Ex}
A rogue with this talent can apply his sneak attack damage on ranged attacks targeting foes within 30 feet. Foes with concealment are still immune.

Surprise Attack {Ex}
The Rogue's attacks in the surprise round deal an extra 1 point of damage per Rogue level.

Blinding Speed {Ex}
A Rogue enacting this ability, which is a swift action, perfroms as though under the effects of a haste spell for a number of rounds equal to 1 plus an additional round for every 4th Rogue level attained. After enacting this ability a Rouge is fatigued a number of rounds equal to the number of rounds the Rouge was under the effects off blinding speed. A rouge cannot use Blinding Speed while Exhausted or Fatigued, and must wait 1 round after Fatigue or exhaustion has worn off to enact this.

Fast Tumble {Ex}
When a rogue with this talent uses Tumble to move at full speed through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity, the DC of the Tumble check does not increase by 10.

Slippery Mind {Ex}
This ability represents the rogue’s ability to wriggle free from magical effects that would otherwise control or compel him. If a rogue with slippery mind is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails his saving throw, he can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. He gets only this one extra chance to succeed on his saving throw.

Feat
A Rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special talent.

Weapon Snatcher {Ex}
A Rogue with this talent can make a Sleight of Hand check in place of a disarm check when attempting to disarm an opponent.

Dead Eye {Ex}
A Rogue selecting this talent takes a full round action and gains a competence bonus to attack rolls equal to the Rogue's level for 2 rounds. The Rouge must wait 10 rounds to enact this talent after use. This bonus does not apply to rolls made to confirm criticals.

Duelist {Ex}
A Rouge selecting this talent deals half again as much damage on a successful attack while alone (allies not in LoS and no closer than 120 feet away). This damage effects those who are immune to critical strike. This damage is additive with other multiples, so a Rogue who scores a critical hit with a short sword would deal X2.5 damage.

Touch of Death: {Ex}
A Rogue's Successful Sneak attack paralyzes the target for 1d3 rounds. The DC to over come is 10+1/2 rouge level+int mod+dex mod. The save is Fort based

Baffling Defender: {Ex}
A Rogue can when using the total-defense option negate an attack upon a successful Balance check, the DC of this check is equal to the attack roll of the target.

Evasion: {Ex}
At 11th level and higher, a Rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the Rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless, flat-footed, or immobilizied Rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion

Opportunist: {Ex}
A Rogue can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by an ally. This attack does not count as the Rogue’s attack of opportunity for that round. Even a Rogue with the Combat Reflexes feat can’t use the opportunist ability more than once per round.

Fountain of Blood: {Ex}
If the Rouge deals a creature enough damage with sneak attack to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it). The Rouge forces all foes within a 30 foot radius to become shaken. The shaken Condition lasts 1d4 rounds plus a number fo rounds equal to half the Rogue's level.

Kinesthetics: {Ex}
The Rogue performs all attacks as 1 delay increment better. ( a standard delay becomes a quick delay; a quick delay becomes very quick) This ability does not stack with the properties of the weapon enchantment quickness.

Kenneth
2011-10-23, 08:58 PM
ROGUE FEATS:

Talented
Prerequisite: 1 Special Talent ability
Benefit:Alows the Rouge to slelect another Special Talent

Masterful Sneak Attack
Prerequisite: Base Attack Bonus +4, Sneak Attack +5d6
Benefit: The Rogue is able to sneak attack the following albeit at half normal effectiveness(rounded up). Undead, elementals, plants, and Incorporal (when using a ghost touch weapon). A 13th level Rogue with this feat makes sneak attack against a Skeleton at +4d6 not +7d6.

Ambidexterity
Prerequisite: Dexterity 15+
Benefit: This character suffers lesser penalties when dual wielding as well as ignoring penalties for using his off hand. The penalties for dual wielding are lessend by 1 for his main hand and by 2 for his off hand. The charatcer does not suffer the normal -4 penalty for ability checks and skill checks made using the off hand. In addition a character uses his full Str modifier on off hand attacks.

.. ok so that last one isn't necassarliy Rogue only.. but apart from Rangers going Dual Weild, Rogues are going to be the majority with this feat

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-23, 09:17 PM
Alignment: Non-lawful? This most assuredly tells me you've never read Tyrants of the Nine Hells. Devils are the epitome of rogue-ish. They convince people to sign their souls away and backstab each other all the time. They fight using cowardly defensive tactics and flee when they take any serious damage.

Base Attack Bonus: Oh no. No no no! The rogue is the 3/4ths BAB class! Why would you give him a lower chance to hit than a cleric and a druid? He has much more combat training than those two!

Skills: You removed Use Magic Device? That's a little strange. Now the only core class that has it is the bard.

Proficiencies: In 3.5, there is no weapon called the "broadsword". Also, why not just give them light armor proficiency?

Trapfinding: Nice little boon here, letting rogues disable arcane lock with a skill check.

*faints* You moved evasion to eleventh level? That's...crazy! How is a rogue supposed to utilize his Trap Sense class feature when he still takes half damage on a successful Reflex save against traps?

Fast Stride: I pray that there was supposed to be a "until the end of the rogue's turn" part here. Otherwise the rogue can continuously stack that untyped bonus to his speed forever and ever with just a few two second actions.

Nimble: +6 bonus to Initiative and AC, as well as to some relevant skill checks. Very nice.

Eviscerate: That's interesting, but you should state when the extra damage occurs.

Hemorrhage: Same problem, but again, very interesting.

Distracting Attack: You mean "flanked" here. Flat-footed is a condition that applies to a creature, not to its attackers. It renders the creature unable to make attacks of opportunity or immediate actions, as well as losing its Dexterity modifier to its AC. Additionally, you need a duration on this ability.

Touch of Death: As a 9th level ability, this really needs a saving throw. It's a fantastic ability and I see the need for it, but paralysis is a horrendous condition and should never be without a saving throw. (I suggest Fort DC 10+1/2 level+Int or Dex mod)

Baffling Defender: Instead of "forgoing all attacks", you should say "uses the total defense option". This both works fluff-wise, as it means the rogue has dropped into a particularly defensive stance, and mechanics-wise, as A) the rogue can't make attacks of opportunity this way, and B ) the rogue actually gains something from this ability, the +4 to his AC that applies even if he fails his Balance check.

Fountain of Blood: needs a duration


The class looks really good! I hope to see you edit it a little bit and finish with something pretty nice.

Eldest
2011-10-23, 09:29 PM
Kinesthetics: {Ex}
The Rogue performs all attacks as 1 delay increment better. ( a standard delay becomes a quick delay; a quick delay becomes very quick) This ability does not stack with the properties of the weapon enchantment quickness.
A delay? Do you mean that he can full-attack as a standard, have standard attacks as a move/swift? I would think for a long, long time before giving a blanket thing like that, even as a capstone.

Kenneth
2011-10-23, 10:06 PM
i love neo sephari :)

and look to my post about weapon delays found..Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220003) it explain it in a spoiler and then list all the weapons.
and it was suppoed to be any not lawful good... grr ILL FIX DAT NAO!

Well the reason why evasion is moved up so hihg is 2 fold, first. it makes blasters a bit more useful and 2nd ly a player ocne said 'evasion makes no sense, if i toss a grendae right next to you the only way you are getting away unscathed is 1) you put up some type of sheidl to block it or 2) you are nowhere near the blast radius when it goes off.. I was liek ' damn you are right.
scribble scribbel there now evasion is a bit more 'normal'

yes I removed use magic devise, only Eldritchs ( warlocks refluffed to be more about basic arcane infusion instead of weird fiendish stuffs) get that as a class ability, which thye get at 2nd level so theoretically a lot of classes can pick that up with not a big hamper to them


I know there is no weapon in 3rd ed called a broad sword, i could go on for HOURS as to how completely stupid WoTC was in regards to how they made weapons in 3rd ed, but .. lets not get on that subject yet.. (DAMN YOU WIZARDS!!! it just a fregging scimitar not a dang flachion!!!!!! and the 'rapier' is a damn sabre !!!) k rant done... i hope

woopsie yes there is an untill the end of turn to be there on fast stride

and I do mean flat footed.. the rogue goes STABBIE!! and renders teh target flat-footed agianst furutre attacks by the rogue will make that clearer now off to fix the class more :)

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-23, 10:42 PM
i love neo sephari :)

Ah, well, thank you.



and look to my post about weapon delays found..Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220003) it explain it in a spoiler and then list all the weapons.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe weapon speeds usually applied to initiatives in AD&D



and it was suppoed to be any not lawful good... grr ILL FIX DAT NAO!


So your intent is to basically remake the 2.0 thief, but with a bunch of cool class features? I do like that idea, but in that case, he should definitely have at least 3/4 BAB. I mean, the thief was supposed to win with multiple attacks in one round. If he only has a max of +10, and he uses a -3 weapon, that's only +7/+2. So he only gets 2 attacks per round, while a fighter using a -7 weapon would still get 3.



Well the reason why evasion is moved up so hihg is 2 fold, first. it makes blasters a bit more useful and 2nd ly a player ocne said 'evasion makes no sense, if i toss a grendae right next to you the only way you are getting away unscathed is 1) you put up some type of sheidl to block it or 2) you are nowhere near the blast radius when it goes off.. I was liek ' damn you are right. there now evasion is a bit more 'normal'


Evasion is useful against blasters. No one ever said it wasn't, but by pushing evasion back, you are effectively screwing the rogue against dragons, something the rogue was intended to fight pretty well against.



yes I removed use magic devise, only Eldritchs ( warlocks refluffed to be more about basic arcane infusion instead of weird fiendish stuffs) get that as a class ability, which thye get at 2nd level so theoretically a lot of classes can pick that up with not a big hamper to them


Ah, well, that makes more sense then.



I know there is no weapon in 3rd ed called a broad sword, i could go on for HOURS as to how completely stupid WoTC was in regards to how they made weapons in 3rd ed, but .. lets not get on that subject yet.. (DAMN YOU WIZARDS!!! it just a fregging scimitar not a dang flachion!!!!!! and the 'rapier' is a damn sabre !!!) k rant done... i hope


Er, perhaps you should post your 3.5 stats for the broadsword then?



woopsie yes there is an untill the end of turn to be there on fast stride


Ah, yes, that's much better.



and I do mean flat footed.. the rogue goes STABBIE!! and renders teh target flat-footed agianst furutre attacks by the rogue will make that clearer now off to fix the class more :)

As I said, flat-footed doesn't apply to attacks. Creatures who are flat-footed are simply denied their Dexterity bonus to AC, among other things. You should just say "The creature has its Dexterity bonus denied to its AC against the rogue's attacks". That will accomplish your desired effect (as well as allow the rogue to ignore Uncanny Dodge) without the confusing "I'm flat-footed but only against one character so I can still make attacks of opportunity against other characters" and etc

Kenneth
2011-10-23, 11:15 PM
please recheck my weapon delay post LOL i made it a bit more confusing that what I thought I did :(

and here is my broad sword!!

Broad Sword 13 gold 2d4 damage critical 19-20/X2 weight 6lbs Delay Slow

yes wepaon speed applied to initivie and you got extra attacks form weapon proficinies liek weapon speiclization and weapon wastery etc. SO i sort of combined the 2 into 1 rule set

if he is flanking he gets a +2 to the following attacks and then if he uses his dead eye special talent he gets +10 to all of these attacks.

and in 1st/2nd ed the rogue got multiple attacks from dual weilding something that with weapon delay gets buffed a whole lot :)

for me the rogu si nto about being able to go mano e mano against something its about getting in sneakily then unleashing a very devastating attack then gettting back out before he can suffer retaliation.


the CORRECT way weapon delay works with a kinesthetics rouge is

a 20th rouge with a short sword attacks like this

{table=head]with Weapon Delay
+10/+7/+3/
[/table]

{table=head]with Weapon Delay+dual wielding
+10/+7/+4
+8/+5/+2
[/table]

Kenneth
2011-10-24, 02:01 AM
do you think i should perhaps lower the requirements for
masterful sneak attack? lime maybe allow a 9th level rogue to get that niceness?

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-24, 02:06 AM
do you think i should perhaps lower the requirements for
masterful sneak attack? lime maybe allow a 9th level rogue to get that niceness?

I don't see why not, considering 3.5 rogues could get it at 3rd level without spending a feat by taking the Penetrating Strike ACF from Dungeonscape. Still, I don't think you should allow it to affect plants. Unlike undead and elementals, oozes and plants just don't have weak vital areas, because they don't have organs

Kenneth
2011-10-24, 02:25 AM
my counter to that is,, neither do elementals and the undead's ceased fucntioning a long time ago..LOL

plsu I thinks it funny to run up to a treant and go *stealth* drink potion of true strike. wait for treant to turn around.. wait some more.. still waiting. DAMNIT THIS TRE.. on he did finally. jump out and sneka attack him stabbing his treeness super deadlyfied dealing+6d6 dneak attack damage.


I mena come on, i knwo you just giggle at teh image of a rogue bakc stabbing a tree guy.. I know I just did.

and I might be wrong here.. but doesn;t the ACF form dungeonscape only work if you are flanking?

I think all in all. would this be 'tier' 3? or still 'tier' 4? eveybody in my what is up with the wrong thread gave me one of 3 reason on what is wrong with the rogue and how to fix it
1) sneak attack applies to everything ( I could see the need fo that in teh HP explosion that was 3rd ed and so included the feat)
2)the rogue needs better defense against melee attacks ( again i agree, so POW dodge bonus and init bonus for teh win)
3) psychic rogue/factotum/beguiler does it better, play one of those instead ( which was 95% of the answers and angered me when those same peopel kept saying to random somevbody els e' give an example of when somebody didn;t say do this and this with your class and isntead said play X class!) The irony was not lost on me.. those others I think it was on the other hand.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-24, 02:36 AM
my counter to that is,, neither do elementals and the undead's ceased fucntioning a long time ago..LOL

plsu I thinks it funny to run up to a treant and go *stealth* drink potion of true strike. wait for treant to turn around.. wait some more.. still waiting. DAMNIT THIS TRE.. on he did finally. jump out and sneka attack him stabbing his treeness super deadlyfied dealing+6d6 dneak attack damage.


I mena come on, i knwo you just giggle at teh image of a rogue bakc stabbing a tree guy.. I know I just did.

and I might be wrong here.. but doesn;t the ACF form dungeonscape only work if you are flanking?


Yeah, but undead and elementals are humanoid in appearance (Depending on how you fluff your elementals) so I wasn't going to really argue against them. I dunno, you just seemed like you wanted to express some kind of realism, so I was pointing that out with that in mind, but okay. Backstabbing treants makes sense.



I think all in all. would this be 'tier' 3? or still 'tier' 4? eveybody in my what is up with the wrong thread gave me one of 3 reason on what is wrong with the rogue and how to fix it
1) sneak attack applies to everything ( I could see the need fo that in teh HP explosion that was 3rd ed and so included the feat)
2)the rogue needs better defense against melee attacks ( again i agree, so POW dodge bonus and init bonus for teh win)
3) psychic rogue/factotum/beguiler does it better, play one of those instead ( which was 95% of the answers and angered me when those same peopel kept saying to random somevbody els e' give an example of when somebody didn;t say do this and this with your class and isntead said play X class!) The irony was not lost on me.. those others I think it was on the other hand.

The reason that the rogue was tier 4 to begin with was that he had Use Magic Device as a class skill. Just that option pushed him up to tier 4 by itself, because you can spend money to have any spell you want in your repetoire, much like a wizard, but more costly and with more uses if it's a wand (And you could get druid, paladin, ranger and cleric spells as well). Having removed that, I can't say that you've made up for it at all.

The feat is nice, and does improve the rogue's damage output. I would say that your rogue's raw damage places it solidly at tier 4. But removing Use Magic Device weakens it enough that you just end up breaking even, you haven't netted an improvement.

Kenneth
2011-10-24, 02:42 AM
dang. why do casters have to be so damn POWERFUL!!!!


also... I think I will re-edit teh BAB of the rogue and see how that goes.

I suffer from only what I have experinced in my .uuhhh experiences seeing rogue sneak around scouting disarming traps sneak attacking then running away to hide and sneka attack all over agin, id on't think too many fo my rogues ever walked around going toe to toe against monsters unless they were severly weakened.


Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.



To me the Rogue I made is able to do this. (and the standard D&D rogue as well)

to give his other example


Situation 1: A Black Dragon has been plaguing an area, and he lives in a trap filled cave. Deal with him.

Situation 2: You have been tasked by a nearby country with making contact with the leader of the underground slave resistance of an evil tyranical city state, and get him to trust you.

Situation 3: A huge army of Orcs is approaching the city, and should be here in a week or so. Help the city prepare for war.


A rogues strong point is massive damage via sneak attack, sneaking around scouting for the party and doing typical roguish things; pick pocketing disarming traps, lieing to whatevers, etc


Tier 4: The Rogue. Situation 1: Well he can certainly help get the party to the dragon, even if he's not totally optimized for it. His stealth and detection abilities will come in handy here, and if he puts the less stealthy people in portable holes and the like he's good to go. During the combat he's likely not that helpful (it's hard to sneak attack a dragon) but if he had a lot of prep time he might have been able to snag a scroll or wand of Shivering Touch, in which case he could be extremely helpful... he just has to be really prepared and on the ball, and the resources have to be available in advance. He's quite squishy though, and that dragon is a serious threat. Situation 2: With his stealth and diplomacy, he's all over this. Maybe not 100% perfect, but still pretty darn solid. An individual build might not have all the necessary skills, but most should be able to make do. Situation 3: Perhaps he can use Gather Information and such to gain strategic advantages before the battle... that would be handy. There's a few he's pretty likely to be able to pull off. He might even be able to use Diplomacy to buff the army a bit and at least get them into a good morale situation pre battle. Or, if he's a different set up, he could perhaps go out and assassinate a few of the orc commanders before the fight, which could be handy. And then during the fight he could do the same. It's not incredible, but it's something.

now lets edit that for my rouge a bit
The Rogue. Situation 1: Well he can certainly help get the party to the dragon, even if he's not totally optimized for it. His stealth and detection abilities will come in handy here, and if he puts the less stealthy people in portable holes and the like he's good to go. During the combat he's likely helpful sneak attacking a dragon is painful! He's quite squishy though, and that dragon is a serious threat. THough he might be semi diffucult to hit, a landed blow is devastating Situation 2: With his stealth and diplomacy, he's all over this. Maybe not 100% perfectas a Bard would be, but still pretty darn solid. An individual build might not have all the necessary skills, but most should be able to make do. Situation 3: Perhaps he can use Gather Information and such to gain strategic advantages before the battle... that would be handy..He might even be able to use Diplomacy to buff the army a bit and at least get them into a good morale situation pre battle, again not as good as the bard can do. Or, if he's a different set up, he could perhaps go out and assassinate a few of the orc commanders before the fight, which could be handy:confused:, well no offense to JaronK but typically killing off teh commanders of an army means you just won, or need I point out the numerous times in real life history where assassinations of commanders meant the other side won?. And then during the fight he could do the same. It's not incredible, but it's something.

in each and everyone of these scenarios the rogue contributes expertly in the original rogue version and mine (though admittedly with teh use magic device version the rogue is even better at all of this due to magic items use cheats)

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-24, 02:48 AM
dang. why do casters have to be so damn POWERFUL!!!!

Well, to answer your question, the reason for that is because in order to attract 2.0 players to 3.5, the 3.5 crew decided to make the cleric and the druid as similar to their original 2.0 selves as possible.

So the cleric got his ability to turn undead, as well as his divine casting. And the druid got his flavorful wild shape ability, but any animal instead of just three, as well as divine casting, and the handful of class features that a druid got from 2.0. Simple, right?

Wrong. In 2.0, divine casting never advanced past 7th level. But for some strange reason, the 3.5 crew decided that divine casting had to match wizard casting


To top it off, they didn't weaken the chassis when they did that. So clerics could still wear armor, and clerics and druids still had a Priest's THAC0 (3/4 BAB) and d8 hit dice. They kept all this, and got improved casting.

That's the reason that casters are so powerful. In 2.0, they were semi-warriors with casting. In 3.5, they became full casters and lost none of the warrior power. And nothing was done in the spellcasting to make up for it either.

Though that just covers divine.

I guess your real question- "Why are casters so powerful?" deserves its own 3.5 thread. You should probably post it in the Roleplaying forum and see what everyone says.

Kenneth
2011-10-24, 03:04 AM
theres a roleplaying thread?

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-24, 03:08 AM
theres a roleplaying thread?

Er...well..yes...the Play-By-Post section at the bottom of the forum page has hundreds of roleplaying threads.

But I was referring to the Roleplaying forum (the one right above Homebrew) with the 3.5 subforum. The one where you posted your "What's wrong with the rogue" thread

Kenneth
2011-10-24, 03:11 AM
oh.. LOL i knew that :)

I almost joined a game untill the DM said to join another site (Mythweavers i think) to post my character on.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-24, 03:14 AM
oh.. LOL i knew that :)

I almost joined a game untill the DM said to join another site (Mythweavers i think) to post my character on.

Actually, I love Myth-weavers. I print all my character sheets from there. Very good site, has sheets for D&D, AD&D, 3.5e, 4e, Pathfinder, GURPS, World of Darkness and pretty much every other game you could want. Very convenient, doesn't cost a cent.

Kenneth
2011-10-24, 03:21 AM
I posted my 'why casters so powerful!' thread :) maybe it will becoem too epci!

and yes Mythweavers is a good site ( it has its own forums for PbP as well)

I just disagree with having to join and use a different website to play on another. Makes no sesne to me, very inefficient.

Mulletmanalive
2011-10-24, 08:20 AM
As your rewrite of Sneak Attack forbids me from using it at range, there's no reason for me to waste ANY resources on possessing ranged capabilities.

So why on earth did you include Sniper's Eye, an utterly useless ability that I have to pay to get into at 8th level that barely gives me the options the rogue used to have, less when you consider that i was crippling myself to do anything but TWF prior to this point?

It's actually wierdly insulting, sitting there, mocking you for wanting to fight at range with its lameness.

You'll need to either add ranged use back in and make it good or just remove it because it's pointless.

Also, you've written Rouge on several occasions, so it might be worth a quick find/replace.

Thanatos 51-50
2011-10-24, 08:27 AM
As your rewrite of Sneak Attack forbids me from using it at range, there's no reason for me to waste ANY resources on possessing ranged capabilities.

So why on earth did you include Sniper's Eye, an utterly useless ability that I have to pay to get into at 8th level that barely gives me the options the rogue used to have, less when you consider that i was crippling myself to do anything but TWF prior to this point?

It's actually wierdly insulting, sitting there, mocking you for wanting to fight at range with its lameness.

You'll need to either add ranged use back in and make it good or just remove it because it's pointless.

Also, you've written Rouge on several occasions, so it might be worth a quick find/replace.

No, it doesn't. Read it more carefully, any time the target has lost its DEX bonus to AC. Any time. Range isn't a problem.

I'm still stumped as to why I can't build a Lawful Good rogue.

Mulletmanalive
2011-10-24, 08:56 AM
No, it doesn't. Read it more carefully, any time the target has lost its DEX bonus to AC. Any time. Range isn't a problem.

I'm still stumped as to why I can't build a Lawful Good rogue.

The wording on Sniper's Eye doesn't indicate that to be true. As I'm going entirely on a literal reading here, my point stands. If there is an 8th level ability that allows me to apply sneak attack against targets up to 30ft away, then i'm going to assume that i'm not allowed to deal it at range at all before buying it.

Kenneth
2011-10-24, 01:34 PM
No, it doesn't. Read it more carefully, any time the target has lost its DEX bonus to AC. Any time. Range isn't a problem.

I'm still stumped as to why I can't build a Lawful Good rogue.



A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. He combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. He tells the truth, keeps his word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished.

Lawful good is the best alignment you can be because it combines honor and compassion.

Lawful good can be a dangerous alignment when it restricts freedom and criminalizes self-interest.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While strict in their prosecution of law and order, characters of lawful good alignment follow these precepts to improve the common weal. Certain freedoms must, of course, be sacrificed in order to bring order; but truth is of highest value, and life and beauty of great importance. The benefits of this society are to be brought to all. Creatures of lawful good alignment view the cosmos with varying degrees of lawfulness or desire for good. The are convinced that order and law are absolutely necessary to assure good, and that good is best defined as whatever brings the most benefit to the greater number of decent, thinking creatures and the least woe to the rest.

Characters of this alignment believe that an orderly, strong society with a well-organized government can work to make life better for the majority of the people. To ensure the quality of life, laws must be created and obeyed. When people respect the laws and try to help one another, society as a whole prospers. These characters strive for those things that will bring the greatest benefit to the most people and cause the least harm.

These characters have a strong moral character. Truth, honor, and the welfare of others is all-important. They are convinced that order and laws are absolutely necessary to assure that goodness prevails. Lawful good beings will not want to lie or cheat anyone, good or evil. They will not stand for treachery and will not let obviously dishonorable people use their own honor against them, if they can help it. They will obey the laws and customs of the area that they are in, but will attempt to find legal loopholes to disobey a law which is clearly evil or unjust.

Lawful good characters are group and order oriented, and will cooperate with authority in all cases to promote the common weal. Not all lawful good beings view the cosmos with an equal desire for lawfulness and goodness, so there is no such thing as a perfectly balanced "lawful good" attitude (nor a perfectly balanced attitude for any other alignment, for that matter). In general, however, a lawful good character promotes the ideals and rights of the majority over those of the individual (and this includes himself as well as others) and upholds the rights of the weak and oppressed members of society, who should be allowed to reap society's benefits with equanimity. The lawful good being feels this is the best way that all members of society can enjoy the rights of existence together. Life is important to the lawful good being, but life is not exclusive of order, and vice versa.

Lawful good can appear to be a difficult alignment to uphold, but it must be remembered that lawful good characters are not necessarily naive or unrealistic. At the heart of a lawful good alignment is the belief in a system of laws that promotes the welfare of all members of a society, ensures their safety, and guarantees justice. So long as the laws are just and applied fairly to all people, it doesn't matter to the lawful good character whether they originate from a democracy or a dictator. Though all lawful good systems adhere to the same general principles, specific laws may be different. One society may allow a wife to have two husbands, another may enforce strict monogamy. Gambling may be tolerated in one system, forbidden in another. A lawful good character respects the laws of other lawful good cultures and will not seek to impose his own values on their citizens.

However, a lawful good character will not honor a law that runs contrary to his alignment. A government may believe that unregulated gambling provides a harmless diversion, but a lawful good character may determine that the policy has resulted in devastating poverty and despair. In this character's mind, the government is guilty of a lawless act by promoting an exploitative and destructive enterprise. In response, he may encourage citizens to refrain from gambling, or he may work to change the law. Particularly abhorrent practices, such as slavery and torture, may force the lawful good character to take direct action. It doesn't matter if these practices are culturally acceptable or sanctioned by well-meaning officials. The lawful good character's sense of justice compels him to intervene and alleviate as much suffering as he can. Note, though, that time constraints, inadequate resources, and other commitments may limit his involvement. While a lawful good character might wish for a cultural revolution in a society that tolerates cannibalism, he may have to content himself with rescuing a few victims before circumstances force him to leave the area.

When will a lawful good character take a life? A lawful good being kills whenever necessary to promote the greater good, or to protect himself, his companions, or anyone whom he's vowed to defend. In times of war, he strikes down the enemies of his nation. He does not interfere with a legal execution, so long as the punishment fits the crime. Otherwise, a lawful good character avoids killing whenever possible. He does not kill a person who is merely suspected of a crime, nor does this character necessarily kill someone he perceives to be a threat unless he has tangible evidence or certain knowledge of evildoing. He never kills for treasure or personal gain. He never knowingly kills an innocent being.

A lawful good character will keep his word if he gives it and will never lie. He will never attack an unarmed foe and will never harm an innocent. He will not use torture to extract information or for pleasure. He will never kill for pleasure, only in self-defense or in the defense of others. A lawful good character will never use poison. He will help those in need and he prefers to work with others. He responds well to higher authority, is trustful of organizations, and will always follow the law. He will never betray a family member, comrade, or friend (though he will attempt to bring an immoral or law-breaking friend to justice, in order to rehabilitate that person). Lawful good characters respect the concepts of self-discipline and honor.

Here are some possible adjectives describing lawful good characters: friendly, courteous, sensitive to the feelings of others, scrupulous, honorable, trustworthy, reliable, helpful, loyal, and respectful of "life, love, and the pursuit of happiness."


None of the above comes close to 'jiving' with the rogue concept, at least in my understanding of what teh term rogue means and the description tha includes but is not limited to . 's
ome are stealth thieves, other silver-tognued tricksters, still others are scouts, infiltrators, spies, and thugs." 'in general, rogues are skill at getting what others don't want them to get, entrance into a lock treasure vault, safe passage past a deadly trap, seceret battle plans, a guard's trust, or some randoms persons pocket change'

Thanatos 51-50
2011-10-24, 03:22 PM
The wording on Sniper's Eye doesn't indicate that to be true. As I'm going entirely on a literal reading here, my point stands. If there is an 8th level ability that allows me to apply sneak attack against targets up to 30ft away, then i'm going to assume that i'm not allowed to deal it at range at all before buying it.

It's not Sniper's eye that I'm looking at. I'm looking at Sneak Attack, itself.


If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from his attack, he can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time his target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks his target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. He cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty.

A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

Nowhere in there does it preculude ranged combat. In fact, it's slightly better than the normal sneak attack, as now I can sneak attack from MORE than thirty feet away.It just doesn't have that restricting language.




A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. He combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. He tells the truth, keeps his word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished.

Lawful good is the best alignment you can be because it combines honor and compassion.

Lawful good can be a dangerous alignment when it restricts freedom and criminalizes self-interest.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While strict in their prosecution of law and order, characters of lawful good alignment follow these precepts to improve the common weal. Certain freedoms must, of course, be sacrificed in order to bring order; but truth is of highest value, and life and beauty of great importance. The benefits of this society are to be brought to all. Creatures of lawful good alignment view the cosmos with varying degrees of lawfulness or desire for good. The are convinced that order and law are absolutely necessary to assure good, and that good is best defined as whatever brings the most benefit to the greater number of decent, thinking creatures and the least woe to the rest.

Characters of this alignment believe that an orderly, strong society with a well-organized government can work to make life better for the majority of the people. To ensure the quality of life, laws must be created and obeyed. When people respect the laws and try to help one another, society as a whole prospers. These characters strive for those things that will bring the greatest benefit to the most people and cause the least harm.

These characters have a strong moral character. Truth, honor, and the welfare of others is all-important. They are convinced that order and laws are absolutely necessary to assure that goodness prevails. Lawful good beings will not want to lie or cheat anyone, good or evil. They will not stand for treachery and will not let obviously dishonorable people use their own honor against them, if they can help it. They will obey the laws and customs of the area that they are in, but will attempt to find legal loopholes to disobey a law which is clearly evil or unjust.

Lawful good characters are group and order oriented, and will cooperate with authority in all cases to promote the common weal. Not all lawful good beings view the cosmos with an equal desire for lawfulness and goodness, so there is no such thing as a perfectly balanced "lawful good" attitude (nor a perfectly balanced attitude for any other alignment, for that matter). In general, however, a lawful good character promotes the ideals and rights of the majority over those of the individual (and this includes himself as well as others) and upholds the rights of the weak and oppressed members of society, who should be allowed to reap society's benefits with equanimity. The lawful good being feels this is the best way that all members of society can enjoy the rights of existence together. Life is important to the lawful good being, but life is not exclusive of order, and vice versa.

Lawful good can appear to be a difficult alignment to uphold, but it must be remembered that lawful good characters are not necessarily naive or unrealistic. At the heart of a lawful good alignment is the belief in a system of laws that promotes the welfare of all members of a society, ensures their safety, and guarantees justice. So long as the laws are just and applied fairly to all people, it doesn't matter to the lawful good character whether they originate from a democracy or a dictator. Though all lawful good systems adhere to the same general principles, specific laws may be different. One society may allow a wife to have two husbands, another may enforce strict monogamy. Gambling may be tolerated in one system, forbidden in another. A lawful good character respects the laws of other lawful good cultures and will not seek to impose his own values on their citizens.

However, a lawful good character will not honor a law that runs contrary to his alignment. A government may believe that unregulated gambling provides a harmless diversion, but a lawful good character may determine that the policy has resulted in devastating poverty and despair. In this character's mind, the government is guilty of a lawless act by promoting an exploitative and destructive enterprise. In response, he may encourage citizens to refrain from gambling, or he may work to change the law. Particularly abhorrent practices, such as slavery and torture, may force the lawful good character to take direct action. It doesn't matter if these practices are culturally acceptable or sanctioned by well-meaning officials. The lawful good character's sense of justice compels him to intervene and alleviate as much suffering as he can. Note, though, that time constraints, inadequate resources, and other commitments may limit his involvement. While a lawful good character might wish for a cultural revolution in a society that tolerates cannibalism, he may have to content himself with rescuing a few victims before circumstances force him to leave the area.

When will a lawful good character take a life? A lawful good being kills whenever necessary to promote the greater good, or to protect himself, his companions, or anyone whom he's vowed to defend. In times of war, he strikes down the enemies of his nation. He does not interfere with a legal execution, so long as the punishment fits the crime. Otherwise, a lawful good character avoids killing whenever possible. He does not kill a person who is merely suspected of a crime, nor does this character necessarily kill someone he perceives to be a threat unless he has tangible evidence or certain knowledge of evildoing. He never kills for treasure or personal gain. He never knowingly kills an innocent being.

A lawful good character will keep his word if he gives it and will never lie. He will never attack an unarmed foe and will never harm an innocent. He will not use torture to extract information or for pleasure. He will never kill for pleasure, only in self-defense or in the defense of others. A lawful good character will never use poison. He will help those in need and he prefers to work with others. He responds well to higher authority, is trustful of organizations, and will always follow the law. He will never betray a family member, comrade, or friend (though he will attempt to bring an immoral or law-breaking friend to justice, in order to rehabilitate that person). Lawful good characters respect the concepts of self-discipline and honor.

Here are some possible adjectives describing lawful good characters: friendly, courteous, sensitive to the feelings of others, scrupulous, honorable, trustworthy, reliable, helpful, loyal, and respectful of "life, love, and the pursuit of happiness."


None of the above comes close to 'jiving' with the rogue concept, at least in my understanding of what teh term rogue means and the description tha includes but is not limited to . 's

A Lawful Good Rogue can be
A) A detective of the city guard, using and upholding the laws and orders of his people and his government, to protect and serve the populace. He is, above all else, a cunning, elusive man or woman, and a skilled operator who can get to the bottom of any plot. He is not the most skilled combatant and is a pragmatist if the investigation comes to blows.

B) An idealistic orphan, believing that no matter the pain and misery his station has brought, he will not abide the super-rich hoarding their treasures and spitting upon the downtrodden. He is a Hero of the impoverished class. While he may resort to theft - except to help others survive, he is a shining example of just how good the "Worthless peons" can be. He knows what dirt,y nasty secrets lurk in the undersity. He has webs withing webs of contacts and informants, as he works tirelessly to hunt down those who are oppressing his people.

C) A skilled Royal Spy, believving that his King and his Nation are right and good, working with the same dedication and virtue that any Knight might, dealing with, and delving within the dark, secret areas of the Kingdom - or even an enemy kingdom, to weed out and destroy corruption, or to set up the dominoes to allow the Army to knock them down, and bring Goodness and Order to the oppressed peoples of an emey kingdom.

D) An escaped slave, worked to the bone, bent and helpless, toiling day-in and day-out and, eventually, not having the bread at the end of the day to feed himself and his family, where both him and his fellows are taunted by the woes and dangers of malnutrition daily, the Rogue first learned the tricks of the trade in rising against his Evil master, stealing here and there to put food in the bellies of his friends. When the opportunity to escape or rebel rose up, he snatched at it. Perhaps he left his fellow slaves behind or got them killed in the battle - and for this he bears the eternal mark of shame and weight of great sorrow. He constantly works in secret to absolve himself of these sins, launching raids against slave-owners and freeing other men and women in bondage, and campaigning to bring their plight to the attention of great, national powers so that the slaves may finally be freed. He is a master of tugging at people's heartstrings and reliving Evil men of their valuables.

There we go, four quick concepts off the top of my head - two impoverished and two "Middle" class, about what can make a Lawful Good Rogue.

Kenneth
2011-10-24, 03:34 PM
I am not going to get into a debate on what is LG or not with you as in actuality what constitutes what an alignment is a for teh most part purely personal opinon..

but I will say that how can you say that option B is not the copying of a chaotic good robin hood type of character?

Thanatos 51-50
2011-10-24, 03:46 PM
I am not going to get into a debate on what is LG or not with you as in actuality what constitutes what an alignment is a for teh most part purely personal opinon..

but I will say that how can you say that option B is not the copying of a chaotic good robin hood type of character?

Robin Hood was more of a wealth redistributionist. The most Concept B steals is food for the starving. This is something I kept in mind whilst writing it (I didn't even notice the Robin Hood similarity until halfway through, and I strove to make sure that they weren't the same.

Again, these are *quick* and *off the top of my head*.

Treblain
2011-10-24, 03:50 PM
Can you give us some notes on what your design intentions were? I don't really get what you were going for. There are some things that are stronger and several that make it weaker, but it's not that different overall.

And yeah, you need to clarify Sneak Attack and Sniper's Eye. I'm not sure what you intended, but as it appears, the rogue can only sneak attack in melee and at 30' with Sniper's Eye. (which is not really sniping, at that range)

If you don't like evasion letting you dodge fireballs, there's a feat somewhere that lets you move after successfully making a Reflex save. You could incorporate that into Evasion to justify why it works.

Thanatos 51-50
2011-10-24, 06:28 PM
Can you guys seriously please point out where the Sneak Attack doesn't let you hit at range?
I'm not seeing it.

Kenneth
2011-10-24, 06:33 PM
to quote faceroll from a previous thread


It doesn't say that fighters can't cast wizard spells. In other words, lack of permission to do something in the rules isn't permission to do something.

I would have thought that the ability to use a sneak attack from range available as a Special Talent that you can get as early as level 8 would be proof enough you can only use sneak attack as melee before then.

Jade Dragon
2011-10-24, 07:05 PM
2)the rogue needs better defense against melee attacks ( again i agree, so POW dodge bonus and init bonus for teh win)

Wake me up when +1 AC matters past 5th level.

Also, with Fade, I take a full round action and permanently gain conealment.

As for the lawful good rogue, there's a little profession called "spy". And this profession requires diplomacy, sense motive, hide, move silently, forgery, bluff, disguise, sleight of hand, spot, listen, climb, jump, swim, and balance. And it has to be decent in combat.

Kenneth
2011-10-24, 07:25 PM
I refer you to the NIMBLE ability as It appears that you completely skipped over that, oha nd you also completely skipped over baffling defender.



I get teh distinct impressiont hat a majority of the people who 'critique' homebrewed classes/prestige classes/feats/spells never actually READ said homebrewed creation and post radnoms dislikes that have no basis as they never read it and the homebrewed creation actually has what the are complainging is missing...

Jade Dragon
2011-10-24, 07:42 PM
I refer you to the NIMBLE ability as It appears that you completely skipped over that, oha nd you also completely skipped over baffling defender.

Nimble is an extra way to SA. You catch an enemy flat-footed if they haven't acted in combat.

Baffling Defender is never going to see the light of day.

Kenneth
2011-10-24, 07:48 PM
You have got to be reading a different nimble than what I created.

Nimble:{Ex}
A Rogue gains a bonus to his Balance, Climb and Initiative equal to the number listed. In addition a Rogue also gains the number listed as a dodge bonus to his AC.

see there, that last line?


here let me underlin eit for you
Nimble:{Ex}
A Rogue gains a bonus to his Balance, Climb and Initiative equal to the number listed. In addition a Rogue also gains the number listed as a dodge bonus to his AC.


wait.. does it sayd a Rouge gets an addition to his AC in the form of a dodge bonus?.. dman.. I think it does.

again.. i do not think you are ven attemtpign to read anything I wrote here in this class, at least fully or you are just conitunally skimming over it and saying " RAWR BAD RAWR RAWR ARWR!! FASIL!"

maybe If you took teh time and actually attempted to read my rogue in its entirety before you commeneted on how something that very plainly exists within the class, you would not say a) wake me when +! dodeg matters after lvl 5 or B) nimble is just an extra way to sneka attack

instead you would be saying C) oh, you get +6 Dodge bonus to AC. over the course of the rogue's career. thats actually nice.

Zagaroth
2011-10-24, 08:02 PM
I'm going to just toss this in here to see what the OP thinks, if he hasn't seen it before. Personally, i think this is a very nice version of the rogue, with lots of options.

here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue)

even if you don't care for it, maybe you'll want to crib a few ideas off of it :)

Kenneth
2011-10-24, 08:12 PM
The pathfinder rogue is nice, honestly teh only big difference I see is in PF a rogue gets d8 HD and more talents. whihc again like a TON of things in pathfidner is similar to what I have in my rogue :(...


all in all a good rouge. though for me at least bumping up everybdyies HD 1 die size nerfs teh advatage fighters had over those clasess. now teh fighter has on avergae 1 more HP per level than a rouge instead of 2....

Jade Dragon
2011-10-24, 08:23 PM
You have got to be reading a different nimble than what I created.

Nimble:{Ex}
A Rogue gains a bonus to his Balance, Climb and Initiative equal to the number listed. In addition a Rogue also gains the number listed as a dodge bonus to his AC.

see there, that last line?


here let me underlin eit for you
Nimble:{Ex}
A Rogue gains a bonus to his Balance, Climb and Initiative equal to the number listed. In addition a Rogue also gains the number listed as a dodge bonus to his AC.


wait.. does it sayd a Rouge gets an addition to his AC in the form of a dodge bonus?.. dman.. I think it does.

again.. i do not think you are ven attemtpign to read anything I wrote here in this class, at least fully or you are just conitunally skimming over it and saying " RAWR BAD RAWR RAWR ARWR!! FASIL!"

maybe If you took teh time and actually attempted to read my rogue in its entirety before you commeneted on how something that very plainly exists within the class, you would not say a) wake me when +! dodeg matters after lvl 5 or B) nimble is just an extra way to sneka attack

instead you would be saying C) oh, you get +6 Dodge bonus to AC. over the course of the rogue's career. thats actually nice.

It's better, but I have a level 18 character with 16 AC who relies on 50% miss chance from magic items and the occasional Wall of Blades maneuver. 22 AC isn't helping more than 16 AC at level 18. The people in the party with high AC are the psionics and casters who can buff themselves up with protections.

Yeah, you can buff your AC. But at some point, you gotta ask yourself why you're not just buying potions of Displacement at CL 20, a Major Cloak of Displacement, and +1 Heavy Fortification chain shirt for way cheaper than the +5 bracers of armor, +5 amulet of natural armor, +5 chain shirt, and +5 ring of protection for an extra +19 to AC over that, or 41 AC total and no miss chance vs creatures with either spells and spell-likes or a +34 average attack bonus and huge damage.

Kenneth
2011-10-24, 08:34 PM
Hows about adding in these abilities into my Rouge

Avoid: {Ex}
Upon using a move action a Rogue finds he has a 30% True miss chance against ranged attacks

Decoy: {Ex}
The Rouge can give and gain flanking bonuses to an ally even if the Rouge is not in the correct Flanking position. The Rouge and the ally must be adjacent to the target that is to be flanked.

Dire Strike: {Ex}
A Rogue selecting this talent deal an extra 2d4 damage on his first successful attack in a round. This extra damage is multiplied in the event of a critical hit.

Deep Wounds: {Ex}
A Rogue selecting this talent finds his critical strike leave bleeding wounds behind. A successful Critical Strike deals an extra 1d4 bleed damage as well as 1 point of Constitution damage.

Blackjack Expertise: {Ex}
A Rouge, when making attacks with a sap, cause the target to suffer a -2 cumulative penalty to attacks, armor class, and reflex saves. The penalty last 1 round.


I just want to point on to jade dragon that it is 100% not my fault that AC fails to not grow as much much a attack bonuses do. that is something inherent in 3rd ed, and has absolutely nothing to do with my rouge. and if you read my rouge you woudl notice the rogue gains 15% miss chance , albeit against one foe ( could be several if the rogue makes multiply attacks against different opponents)

plus your 50% miss chance is negated by true seeing whihc by 18th levle everybody and theri cousin should have true seeing eye gems to nullify that big 50% miss chance. then you are down to your 16 AC vs a rouges upwards of 30 AC naked with just his dodge and dex modifiers, and and his 15% miss chance

Jade Dragon
2011-10-24, 08:36 PM
Change Avoid to a move action. That'll be good.

Kenneth
2011-10-29, 10:27 PM
ROGUE

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|+0|+1|+2|+0| Dodge, sneak attack +1d6, Trap finding

2nd|+1|+1|+3|+0| Vexing flanker, Perceptive+1, Blackjack Expertise

3rd|+2|+2|+3|+1|sneak attack +2d6, Trap Sense +1, Dirty Trick

4th|+2|+2|+4|+1| Fast Stride, Eviscerate, Nimble +1

5th|+3|+2|+4|+1| Fade, Decoy, sneak attack +3d6

6th|+4|+3|+5|+2|Trap Sense +2, Strike of Deception, Perceptive+2, Hemorrhage

7th|+4|+3|+5|+2| Distracting Strike, sneak attack +4d6, Nimble +2, Dirty Trick

8th|+5|+3|+6|+2| Uncanny Dodge, Special Talent, Avoid

9th|+6|+4|+6|+3| sneak attack +5d6, Trap Sense +3, Touch of Death

10th|+6|+4|+7|+3| Baffling Defender, Perceptive+3, Nimble +3

11th|+7|+4|+7|+3|sneak attack +6d6, Special Talent, Evasion, Dirty Trick

12th|+8|+5|+8|+4|Trap Sense +4, Opportunist

13th|+8|+5|+8|+4|sneak attack +7d6, Nimble +4

14th|+9|+6|+9|+4| Special Talent, Perceptive+4

15th|+10|+6|+9|+5|sneak attack +8d6, Trap Sense +5, Dirty Trick

16th|+10|+6|+10|+5| Fountain of Blood, Nimble +5

17th|+11|+7|+10|+5|sneak attack +9d6, Special Talent

18th|+12|+7|+11|+6|Trap Sense +6, Perceptive+5

19th|+12|+7|+11|+6|sneak attack +10d6, Nimble +6, Dirty Trick

20th|+13|+8|+12|+6|Special Talent, Kinesthetics

[/table]

Alignment
Any except Lawful Good.
Hit Die
d6.
Class Skills
The rogue’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level
(8 + Int modifier) ×4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level
8 + Int modifier.
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Rogue.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the broad sword, hand axe, hand crossbow, Long sword, sap, shortbow, and short sword. Rogues are proficient with leather armor, Moon-steel chain shirt, Studded Leather and padded armor, but not with shields.

Dodge:{Ex} The Rogue gains Dodge as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the requirments.

Sneak Attack:{Ex} If a Rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from his attack, he can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The Rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time his target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks his target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two Rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a Rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. He cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty.

A Rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The Rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A Rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

Trapfinding: {Ex}
Rogues (and only Rogues) can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20.
Finding a nonmagical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.
Rogues (and only Rogues) can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it. The spell Arcane Lock is considered a magical trap for the use of this ability.
A Rogue who beats a trap’s DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with his party) without disarming it.

Vexing Flanker: {Ex}
The Rogue gains a +2 insight bonus to all attack rolls while flanking a target

Blackjack Expertise: {Ex}
A Rogue, when making attacks with a sap, cause the target to suffer a -2 cumulative penalty to attacks, armor class, and reflex saves. The penalty last 1 round.

Perceptive: {Ex}
The Rogue gains a bonus to his Spot, Forgery, Listen, Search, and Sense Motive checks equal to the number listed in the above table.

Trap Sense: {Ex}
At 3rd level, a Rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts him to danger from traps, giving him a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise to +2 when the Rogue reaches 6th level, to +3 when he reaches 9th level, to +4 when he reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level.

Dirty Trick: {Ex}
On attaining 3rd level, and at every four levels thereafter (7th,11th, 15th, and 19th), a Rogue gains a special ability of his choice from among the following options.

Disorient{Ex}
As an attack action A Rogue can forgo dealing damage upon a successful attack to instead make the target wander aimlessly for 2 rounds

Gouge {Ex}
As an attack action A Rogue can forgo dealing damage upon a successful attack to instead make the target blind for 3 rounds

Cheap Shot {Ex}
As an attack action A Rogue can forgo dealing damage upon a successful attack to instead stagger the target for 2 rounds. This Dirty Trick requires at least one other Dirty trick known before taking.

Kidney Shot {Ex}
As an attack action A Rogue can forgo dealing damage upon a successful attack to instead sicken the target for 5 rounds

Dismantle {Ex}
As an attack action A Rogue can forgo dealing damage upon a successful attack to instead entagle the target for 2 rounds

Fast Stride:{Ex}
As a swift action the Rogue can Increase his movement speed by +10 feet this effect lasts untill the end of the round.

Eviscerate:{Ex}
Upon a successful Sneak Attack, a Rogue can chose to instead of deal the full amount of Sneak attack damage at once, deal one third (rounded up) of that damage over the next 3 rounds on the Rogue's inititaive. For instance a 7th level Rogue can chose to deal 2d6 damage over 3 rounds, instead of dealing 4d6 damage in one attack.

Nimble:{Ex}
A Rogue gains a bonus to his Balance, Climb and Initiative equal to the number listed. In addition a Rogue also gains the number listed as a dodge bonus to his AC.

Fade:{Ex}
Upon using a full round action a Rogue can blend in with the shadows thereby gaining concealment. This abilty does not work in bright light such as that produce by the Daylight spell or in full daylight. Nor does this ability work if the Rogue is suffering from bleed damage or any other form of ongoing damage, such as Melf's Acid Arrow.

Decoy: {Ex}
The Rouge can give and gain flanking bonuses to an ally even if the Rouge is not in the correct flanking position. The Rouge and the ally must be adjacent to the target that is to be flanked

Strike Of Deception: {Ex}
A Rogue's first successful attack against a target gives him a 15% true miss chance against that target and only that target for 1 round.

Hemorrhage: {Ex}
A Rogue's Sneak Attack causes the target to bleed for a number of D4s equal to half the number of sneak attack dice over the next 2 rounds rounds on his initaitive, this is bleed damage. For instance an 11th level Rogue deals 3d4 bleed damage for 2 rounds. This ability also allows Allies to deal an extra point of damage for every 4th Level of the Rogue to the afflicted target.

Distracting Strike:{Ex}
A Rogue's Successful attacks render the target flat flooted for the Rogue's future attacks against that target (and only the Rouge)

Uncanny Dodge: {Ex}
Starting at 8th level, a Rogue can react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized, and you are still conisidered flat-footed, you just do not suffer the penalties.

Special Talent: {Ex}
On attaining 8th level, and at every three levels thereafter (11th, 14th, 17th, and 20th), a Rogue gains a special ability of his choice from among the following options.

Crippling Strike {Ex}
A Rogue with this ability can sneak attack opponents with such precision that his blows weaken and hamper them. An opponent damaged by one of his sneak attacks also takes 2 points of Strength damage. Ability points lost to damage return on their own at the rate of 1 point per day for each damaged ability.

Dire Strike: {Ex}
A Rogue selecting this talent deals an extra 2d4 damage on his first successful attack in a round. This extra damage is multiplied in the event of a critical hit.

Defensive Roll {Ex}
The Rogue can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than he otherwise would. Once per day, when he would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by damage in combat (from a weapon or other blow, not a spell or special ability), the Rogue can attempt to roll with the damage. To use this ability, the Rogue must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, he takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, he takes full damage. He must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute his defensive roll—if he is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC, he can’t use this ability.

Skill Mastery {Ex}
The Rogue becomes so certain in the use of certain skills that he can use them reliably even under adverse conditions.
Upon gaining this ability, he selects a number of skills equal to 1 + his Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, he may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent him from doing so. A Rogue may gain this special ability multiple times, selecting additional skills for it to apply to each time.

Deep Wounds: {Ex}
A Rogue selecting this talent finds his critical strike leave bleeding wounds behind. A successful Critical Strike deals an extra 1d4 bleed damage as well as 1 point of Constitution damage.

Offensive Defense {Ex}
When a Rogue with this talent hits a creature with a melee attack that deals sneak attack damage, the Rogue gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each sneak attack die rolled for one round

Sniper's Eye {Ex}
A Rogue with this talent can apply his sneak attack damage on ranged attacks targeting foes within 30 feet. Foes with concealment are still immune.

Surprise Attack {Ex}
The Rogue's attacks in the surprise round deal an extra 1 point of damage per Rogue level.

Blinding Speed {Ex}
A Rogue enacting this ability, which is a swift action, perfroms as though under the effects of a haste spell for a number of rounds equal to 1 plus an additional round for every 4th Rogue level attained. After enacting this ability a Rogue is fatigued a number of rounds equal to the number of rounds the Rogue was under the effects off blinding speed. A Rouge cannot use Blinding Speed while Exhausted or Fatigued, and must wait 1 round after Fatigue or exhaustion has worn off to enact this.

Fast Tumble {Ex}
When a Rogue with this talent uses Tumble to move at full speed through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity, the DC of the Tumble check does not increase by 10.

Slippery Mind {Ex}
This ability represents the Rogue’s ability to wriggle free from magical effects that would otherwise control or compel him. If a rogue with slippery mind is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails his saving throw, he can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. He gets only this one extra chance to succeed on his saving throw.

Feat
A Rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special talent.

Weapon Snatcher {Ex}
A Rogue with this talent can make a Sleight of Hand check in place of a disarm check when attempting to disarm an opponent.

Dead Eye {Ex}
A Rogue selecting this talent takes a full round action and gains a competence bonus to attack rolls equal to the Rogue's level for 2 rounds. The Rogue must wait 10 rounds to enact this talent after use. This bonus does not apply to rolls made to confirm criticals.

Duelist {Ex}
A Rogue selecting this talent deals half again as much damage on a successful attack while alone (allies not in LoS and no closer than 120 feet away). This damage effects those who are immune to critical strike. This damage is additive with other multiples, so a Rogue who scores a critical hit with a short sword would deal X2.5 damage.

Avoid: {Ex}
Upon using a move action a Rogue finds he has a 30% True miss chance against ranged attacks

Touch of Death: {Ex}
A Rogue's Successful Sneak attack paralyzes the target for 1d3 rounds. The DC to over come is 10+1/2 Rogue level+int mod+dex mod. The save is Fort based

Baffling Defender: {Ex}
A Rogue can when using the total-defense option negate an attack upon a successful Balance check, the DC of this check is equal to the attack roll of the target.

Evasion: {Ex}
At 11th level and higher, a Rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the Rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless, flat-footed, or immobilizied Rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion

Opportunist: {Ex}
A Rogue can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by an ally. This attack does not count as the Rogue’s attack of opportunity for that round. Even a Rogue with the Combat Reflexes feat can’t use the opportunist ability more than once per round.

Fountain of Blood: {Ex}
If the Rouge deals a creature enough damage with sneak attack to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it). The Rouge forces all foes within a 30 foot radius to become shaken. The shaken Condition lasts 1d4 rounds plus a number of rounds equal to half the Rogue's level.

Kinesthetics: {Ex}
The Rogue performs all attacks as 1 delay increment better. ( a standard delay becomes a quick delay; a quick delay becomes very quick) This ability does not stack with the properties of the weapon enchantment quickness