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Paulcynic
2011-10-26, 11:43 PM
If we were to close the power gap between a Wizard and a Fighter by upping the Fighter's power, what would that look like. By JaronK's definitions, a T1 class has "game breaking" abilities, so what could we give to/do with the Fighter without changing his flavor? I suppose the abilities would have to be Extraordinary or Supernatural.

This might be a fun exorcise :) Here are a few guidelines:

1. The essence and play-style of the Fighter must be preserved.
2. No Spell-like abilities (Sp) or Spell casting.
3. Please indicate what level you expect an ability to come into play.
4. Silly is ok :) So long as it helps him climb toward T1.
5. PEACHers welcome, but please be Helpful, and thoughtful in your critiques. (Please Evaluate and Critique Helpfully!)

Seerow
2011-10-26, 11:45 PM
What you ask for isn't actually compatible with your limitations.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-26, 11:50 PM
One thing that makes Tier 1 so powerful is they are far less item-dependent than the lower tiers. (Artificer being the obvious and quite awesome subvert of that statement)

In order for a fighter to be closer to the tier 1s, he would need an extraordinary or supernatural flight speed, to keep up with his enemies. He would also need more skill points and more useful skills such as Knowledge, Diplomacy and Disable Device as class skills.

The fighter would need ways to deal with invisibility, regeneration, damage reduction, incorporeality, magical forcefields, aquatic, and planeshifting creatures.

Edit: I don't know enough about the Pathfinder system to tell you what levels I think these should come into play at. By the way, you should specify you're talking about Pathfinder in the OP in order to help your responses. :smallsmile:

SamBurke
2011-10-26, 11:50 PM
OH BOY.

1. You time travel until you can find and apprehend Achilles.

2. ????

3. Profit.

Really, you are looking for someone like Achilles or some other Greek Hero. Those dudes were BADASS. The Fighter should be able to jump hundreds of feet as a move action, attack once in every square, and power up for massive damage on impact. He should be completely invulnerable to all damage, from all sources, EVAR. Every slash should deal +100 damage. He should be able to summon massive armies of men, angels, and demons with the power of his presence. He should be able to pierce any effect by hitting it hard enough. He should be able to destroy the very core of the earth by slashing it!

Note to self: Never write posts while listening to Two Steps from Hell.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-27, 12:11 AM
A tier 1 character has to (with the arguable exception of the cleric) be able to nova. Tier 1 characters are described as having 1000 nukes, to the tier 2's 100 nukes. Now damage itself is not what makes a tier 1 tier 1, but having that option certainly helps.

I suggest making the fighter's attacks deal an extra 1d6 damage per level. That way he's dishing out 60-80d6 per round at 20th level (which, without the Maximize feat, is around the same amount of damage that spellcasters can drop, especially considering it's a single target rather than an AOE effect)

The ability to hide in plain sight would be nice as well, help the fighter sneak and gain concealment.

Xefas
2011-10-27, 12:16 AM
A tier one Fighter would look something like this.

http://i.imgur.com/ENW9c.jpg

His weapon damage approaches infinity. Unless he actually begins to try. He doesn't teleport, but he does grab the planet he's on and heft it to the side until he's where he wants to be. When a scorpion roughly the size of human suffering uses an ability on him that reads "You die, and nothing can stop it. No save. You can't even block this with things that say you can block stuff that can't be blocked.", he just kind of laughs and then uses its corpse as a vessel to fly onward to the end of time and gut the absolute oblivion of all things in order to use its viscera as a beard warmer.

And he does this without magic. Because he's just kind of strong and tough and good at doing things.

Grod_The_Giant
2011-10-27, 12:17 AM
Hmm... I'm going to say he'll look a lot like this guy:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/72/Superman.jpg/250px-Superman.jpg

No, seriously. At the very least, the golden-age Superman. You're going to need ridiculously crazy physical mobility- maybe a class level squared bonus to jump, balance, tumble, climb, and so on. An equally enormous bonus to damage. The ability bypass all forms of damage reduction. Senses good enough to make cover and invisibility meaningless.

Dienekes
2011-10-27, 12:20 AM
Well I'm not sure by what exactly you mean by "the essence and play-style of the Fighter" but I imagine this would be close to a tier 1 (and completely ridiculous) Fighter:

Remember Tier 1 is not about just being able to break the world, it's about having a million ways to do so.

If we keep the Fighter's basic concept around I think it would be something akin to:
Fighter's may choose to learn 3 feats per level, every level. Each morning the Fighter may choose 3+his level feats to be able to use for that day.

This'll give him around 30 options, not exactly on par with the Wizard and so forth but closer. So to make it even fairer makes these feats scale in some way so that they're always useful.

You would then have to go the SamBurke route and actually buff up all these feats to insane levels. I'm talking making attacks against reality to plain jump. Having feats that essentially let you ignore entire skills. Jumping so high that you fly, without even needing to make a jump check. Hitting people so hard that they switch to your side because they just don't want to get hit anymore. And at later levels just hitting anyone and instead controlling some random guy in the back. You kick the ground and the terrain becomes difficult, then later it just disappears, or creates walls to protect you. The feat that let's you Intimidate reality itself into doing what you want. The feat that let's you ignore a spell, any spell. The feat that makes you immune to mind-control. The ability to kick Mother Nature so that she sends monsters to come help you because she doesn't want you to kick her again.

I'm sure you get the idea.

Ziegander
2011-10-27, 12:21 AM
If we were to close the power gap between a Wizard and a Fighter by upping the Fighter's power, what would that look like.


1. The essence and play-style of the Fighter must be preserved.
2. No Spell-like abilities (Sp) or Spell casting.

These are the two real problems with the concept. I began coming up with fighter-flavored, (Ex) versions of Wizard spells in an effort to preserve the play-style of the Fighter and reach Tier 2. You might want to check the ideas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183385) out in any case.

I truly don't believe that it's possible to write a Tier 1 Fighter if you are trying not to use spells and trying to preserve the essence and play-style of the Fighter.

The core concept of the Fighter is that he fights. Tier 1 classes can fight if they want, but just one of the reasons that Tier 1 classes are Tier 1 is that they can overcome challenges without needing to fight. Tier 1 classes are able to do things that simply and utterly succeed. Those kinds of actions are contrary to the concept of the Fighter and yet are necessary for the Tier 1 level of power.

To put it another way, the essence of the Fighter is defined by the struggle and his ability to rise to the occasion and overcome. Meanwhile, the essence of Tier 1 is the ability to completely circumvent the struggle without any chance of failure.

tempestman
2011-10-27, 12:33 AM
Extra striking ability, increasing armor effectiveness (defense- and mobility-wise), Damage Reduction (possibly?), scaling Armor Class (a-la monk class), allow them to deal maximum damage on non-critical hits, and to really get that "heroic" feel, every fighter gains a relic weapon at 1st level and ignores the various costs. Almost every hero in mythology had their signature weapon: Arthur's Excalibur, Heracles' club, Cu Chulainn's Gae Bolg, Charlemagne's Joyesue.

Granted that doesn't quite remove item dependency, but when they're getting a weapon that scales with them, I doubt the player will complain.

If you're giving the fighter DR, you might actually want to combine the Barbarian and Fighter (rename Rage Adrenaline Rush maybe?), cut out Trap Sense though, doesn't make much sense for a melee fighter.

I might make a rough draft of this...

Edit: To add some versatility to the fighter, marshal auras would be a good idea as well. Inspire others through acts of bravery.

Shpadoinkle
2011-10-27, 12:50 AM
...

I'm sure you get the idea.

Sounds like the Muscle Wizard. (http://www.dumpyourphoto.com/files3/78774/mxhN43RLwgO.jpg)

SamBurke
2011-10-27, 12:53 AM
Extra striking ability, increasing armor effectiveness (defense- and mobility-wise), Damage Reduction (possibly?), scaling Armor Class (a-la monk class), allow them to deal maximum damage on non-critical hits, and to really get that "heroic" feel, every fighter gains a relic weapon at 1st level and ignores the various costs. Almost every hero in mythology had their signature weapon: Arthur's Excalibur, Heracles' club, Cu Chulainn's Gae Bolg, Charlemagne's Joyesue.

Granted that doesn't quite remove item dependency, but when they're getting a weapon that scales with them, I doubt the player will complain.

If you're giving the fighter DR, you might actually want to combine the Barbarian and Fighter (rename Rage Adrenaline Rush maybe?), cut out Trap Sense though, doesn't make much sense for a melee fighter.

I might make a rough draft of this...

Edit: To add some versatility to the fighter, marshal auras would be a good idea as well. Inspire others through acts of bravery.

Tier 3. You need to be able to imitate the Wizard's key abilities:

1. A large pool of abilities, which can be altered with a little bit of forewarning (we'll say 24 hrs.)

2. This pool of abilities, be it spells, powers, maneuvers, or anything else, should be able to reasonably deal with ALL threats, EVERY time, given 1.

3. The power of these abilities, IE, "Reasonably deal with" should be such that it equals or exceeds any other classes' normally optimized attempts at such an effect.

Basically, it should be able to be a:
Buffer, Debuffer, Striker, Tank, Scout, Diplomancer, Face, Shielder, Battlefield Shaper, Healer, if given 24 hrs. notice. EVERY one of these.

jiriku
2011-10-27, 12:58 AM
A few basic ideas:

The T1 fighter:

...has attack options that automatically hit and deal damage that cannot be reduced or prevented. Although he can't defeat every defense with every sort of attack, he has ways of hitting you that can ignore your AC, saves, miss chance, cover bonus, range, lack of corporeality, and damage reduction. He has many attacks that can ignore more than one of these defenses, and a few that ignore all of them at once.
...gets awesome weapons and armor as a class feature. This gear is either free or discounted as if he made it with item creation feats.
...can use thrown or ranged weapons with exceptional skill, at ranges far beyond the listed ranges of these weapons. He uses the same stat to determine hit and damage bonuses for all his attacks, whether melee or ranged.
...can adopt defensive stances that make him resistant or immune to various attack forms.
...can cover great distances in a short period of time, perhaps by gaining a fast, durable mount as a class feature.
...can convert enemies to his cause through impassioned speeches, or bring back the dead with a curse and a thump on the chest, or travel the planes by slashing the fabric of reality with his sword. He can't necessarily do all of them at once, but with time and preparation and a modest investment of feats or skill ranks, he should be able to do most of them.
...can smash any barrier, even a range (perhaps with a thrown weapon).
...can function in extreme environments such as underwater, in space, and on hostile elemental planes, just by virtue of his extreme toughness.

tempestman
2011-10-27, 12:58 AM
Tier 3. You need to be able to imitate the Wizard's key abilities

It's an improvement nonetheless. I'll probably start posting things here tomorrow after I get some rest. We can continue from there.

Paulcynic
2011-10-27, 01:00 AM
Awesome :)

So the essence is that he needs to be invulnerable to Instant Death and Hostile Polymorph, must be able to kill anything that a caster summons out of hell and beyond, and must be able to see anything and everything, jump in place of flying, and.. and cast spells. :smalleek:

Unless we use Ziegander's awesome (Ex) conversions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183385). Those are genius, Sir! Are we able to resurrect this thread and migrate the conversation there? Or would it be ok with you (Mr. Zeigander) if we cut interesting bits into this thread?


Note to self: Never write posts while listening to Two Steps from Hell. lul, that made my night :)


When a scorpion roughly the size of human suffering uses an ability on him that reads "You die, and nothing can stop it. No save. You can't even block this with things that say you can block stuff that can't be blocked.", he just kind of laughs and then uses its corpse as a vessel to fly onward to the end of time and gut the absolute oblivion of all things in order to use its viscera as a beard warmer.
This too.


What you ask for isn't actually compatible with your limitations. Please feel free to break the guidelines if it means a T1 martial class.


Edit: I don't know enough about the Pathfinder system to tell you what levels I think these should come into play at. By the way, you should specify you're talking about Pathfinder in the OP in order to help your responses. Ah, good call :) In this case lets pretend its either or; I'll figure out its place in my homebrew even if its designed from a 3.5 perspective.


I think a great deal of this can be accomplished as Extraordinary and Supernatural powers or feats. Of course the effects would be similar/identical but we'd have to craft the flavor-text in such a way that we don't call it "magic" in the same way science fiction and fantasy achieve the same impossible feats, while remaining diametrically opposed concepts. Take instant movement, for example. In fantasy, you beseech your God or recite a chant that alters reality, poof you're now somewhere else. In sci-fi, you step onto a teleport pad, have your atoms segregated, collected and beamed to another location, reassembled perfectly (somehow) and you're ready to go.

Zeigander has done a ton of footwork on this, and is exactly along the lines of the OP :) Maybe we can look over his conversions and nudge them closer to making the Fighter T1? T2 is a great boost either way :)

SamBurke
2011-10-27, 01:06 AM
Awesome :)

So the essence is that he needs to be invulnerable to Instant Death and Hostile Polymorph, must be able to kill anything that a caster summons out of hell and beyond, and must be able to see anything and everything, jump in place of flying, and.. and cast spells. :smalleek:

Unless we use Ziegander's awesome (Ex) conversions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183385). Those are genius, Sir! Are we able to resurrect this thread and migrate the conversation there? Or would it be ok with you (Mr. Zeigander) if we cut interesting bits into this thread?

Yeah, pretty much. I LOVE Ziegander's solution, there... when you summon outsiders with DR40/-- as an (Ex) you are doing something so right.



lul, that made my night :)

/snip

Thanks! I go a little overboard when I get my songs on... and I certainly got dem on. I'm ready to go all night, if needed... :smallbiggrin:

Ziegander
2011-10-27, 01:40 AM
Or would it be ok with you (Mr. Zeigander) if we cut interesting bits into this thread?

I would be completely fine with migrating any amount of that stuff over here, no problem. There is however still a big gap between the stuff in that thread and the idea of making a Fighter Tier 1. I tried to institute a saving throw or other limitations/chance of failure to most of the strategies, even, or especially, when making equivalencies to Wizard spells that previously had no chance of failure or limitations.

Another thing that helps a Tier 1 become Tier 1 is the ability to dictate the course and pace of a campaign. A Wizard or Cleric can quite easily go wildly off the "beaten path" set in motion by the DM and do whatever they want and suffer little to no mechanical consequences for doing so.

So, the most important things any Tier 1 Fighter class will need (much, much more important than things like being able to hit stuff hard or being immune to death) are a) the ability to simply effect creatures/objects/environments with no chance of failure; and b) the ability to adventure on his terms not the DM's.

Knight9910
2011-10-27, 01:59 AM
Hahaha. The funny part is when I first read this the first thing I thought was "so he wants a saiyan class?"

Alternately, isn't this basically what Book of Nine Swords is? An attempt at making fighters into a better tier class?

Ashtagon
2011-10-27, 02:07 AM
Hmm... I'm going to say he'll look a lot like this guy:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/72/Superman.jpg/250px-Superman.jpg

No, seriously. At the very least, the golden-age Superman. You're going to need ridiculously crazy physical mobility- maybe a class level squared bonus to jump, balance, tumble, climb, and so on. An equally enormous bonus to damage. The ability bypass all forms of damage reduction. Senses good enough to make cover and invisibility meaningless.

You ninjad me. I googled up the exact same piccie!

Knaight
2011-10-27, 02:29 AM
Hahaha. The funny part is when I first read this the first thing I thought was "so he wants a saiyan class?"

Alternately, isn't this basically what Book of Nine Swords is? An attempt at making fighters into a better tier class?

Tome of Battle (which is what Book of Nine Swords is) has 3 classes, all tier 3. This thread is aiming for tier 1, which is significantly above that.

Knight9910
2011-10-27, 02:49 AM
Fair enough. Book of Nine Swords classes are powerful, but they're not exactly Psionics Handbook levels of destroy-the-world power. Still, it seems something along the lines of Bo9S, only stronger is what you're looking for.

gkathellar
2011-10-27, 04:06 AM
It doesn't look like anything, because it can't be done. A Tier 1 fighter has spells, at which point it's not a fighter: it's a spellcaster with good BAB and better hit points.

Tier 2 non-spellcasters are next to impossible to build, as a number of efforts on this forum have demonstrated. The only non-spellcasting Tier 1 homebrew I've ever seen was RoC's Protean, and that could transform into any monster and gain all its abilities.

Because in short, the definition for Tier 1 is: you can do almost anything, at almost any time, in ways that explicitly disrupt the mechanical aspects of the game. And that's not compatible with the definition of fighter: guy who is good at hurting things and at avoiding getting hurt by things.

If you want to build an Exalted Champion class or something, well that's not a fighter, that's an Exalted Champion. And you're going to have to come up with a hell of a lot of "Heroations" or whatever to even come close to the Tier 1 level of versatility. And you're going to have to make sure the class isn't so chock full of bonuses that it's totally nonfunctional before level 7.

zegram 33
2011-10-27, 06:05 AM
it seems to me you could get close if you totally anime'd it up.
like, give it a crazy amounts of attacks per round, blade beam type ranged attacks, and massive skill bonuses, maybe some aoe save or die attacks as full round actions or something similarly uber.
as for non-combat or more unusual uses...
letting attacks slice through anything inanimate would help for playing around, and using that im sure you could come up with a couple of abilities.
giving it ton of skillpoints would help too

Ziegander
2011-10-27, 06:14 AM
It doesn't look like anything, because it can't be done.

I'm starting to think it can be done, believe it or not. I think I'm going to try to design it...

The idea starts with borrowing some of the Artificer's tricks to divorce him from item dependency and allow him to access magic through (Ex) crafting. If I do that right, that'll get him most of the way there on its own. From there I'm not sure where I'll go, but 8 skill points per level and a way to deal level appropriate damage are likely.

gkathellar
2011-10-27, 06:17 AM
it seems to me you could get close if you totally anime'd it up.

What does that even mean, high power levels? Have you read silver age comics? Or wuxia? Or Greek mythology? :smallfurious:


like, give it a crazy amounts of attacks per round, blade beam type ranged attacks, and massive skill bonuses, maybe some aoe save or die attacks as full round actions or something similarly uber.

You mean like Tome of Battle does? Because none of what you're describing sounds T1. I'm not sure any of it even sounds especially T2.


letting attacks slice through anything inanimate would help for playing around, and using that im sure you could come up with a couple of abilities.

"Oh hey, I'm the fighter, I can cut things better now that I'm ... wait, I could always cut things! This doesn't help me with anything!"


giving it ton of skillpoints would help too

Skills? You mean those things that spellcasters make largely obsolete by 5th level?

EDIT:


The idea starts with borrowing some of the Artificer's tricks to divorce him from item dependency and allow him to access magic through (Ex) crafting. If I do that right, that'll get him most of the way there on its own. From there I'm not sure where I'll go, but 8 skill points per level and a way to deal level appropriate damage are likely.

More power to you for making the effort, and I hope you prove me wrong. But if it's getting most of its T1 chops from magic item crafting then you're mostly demonstrating that a variant Artificier is Tier 1.

zegram 33
2011-10-27, 07:44 AM
sorry, guess i wasn clear, by "anime it up" i meant to give a basic idea of the sort of design it would end up as.
the reason im not looking at mythology is there arnt that many mythological characters you could call "fighters" that would have the kind of abilitis we're talking about here, unless you say "has bathed in the blood of a mystical dragon and is now immune to all forms of damage except for an oak leaf shaped patch on his body", whereas anime is full of people doing retarded stuff with weapons.
by crazy large amount of attacks i literally meant that, as in heading up towards 20 or 30 a round.
by cut through anything i meant, well...anime it up style, as in literally effortlessly slice through any door, wall, magic effect, or whatever, adding in part of the rogues functionality to open locked doors and chests.
as for the skillpoints, i will admit that was simply the best thing i could come up with to help with information gathering and such inside towns, since nothing in the concept of "fighter" really lends itself to that, that i can see.

gkathellar
2011-10-27, 07:50 AM
by crazy large amount of attacks i literally meant that, as in heading up towards 20 or 30 a round.
by cut through anything i meant, well...anime it up style, as in literally effortlessly slice through any door, wall, magic effect, or whatever, adding in part of the rogues functionality to open locked doors and chests.

Yes, I heard you. Neither of those things are hugely impressive compared to the "I create universes" mindset of T1-2 characters.

I mean, literally, that's what Genesis does. It creates universes.

Knaight
2011-10-27, 07:54 AM
Fair enough. Book of Nine Swords classes are powerful, but they're not exactly Psionics Handbook levels of destroy-the-world power. Still, it seems something along the lines of Bo9S, only stronger is what you're looking for.

Psionics Handbook is nothing compared to the Wizard, Cleric, and Druid. Complete Psionics gets up there, but only with the variant StP Erudite. Then there are the Archivist and Artificer, which were introduced in splatbooks that focused somewhat heavily on spell casting.

zegram 33
2011-10-27, 07:59 AM
ok, fair enough
all im going off is he wizard spell list, rather than any first hand knowledge of what an optimized wizard/cleric can do with it

Eldan
2011-10-27, 08:15 AM
Well.
Let's see what a mid-PO wizard can do, level by level, more or less in core:

Level 1:
-Improve his own or his allies' battle strength significantly (shield, mage armour, true strike, enlarge person)
-Create servants that help with tasks (Unseen servant, Mount, Summon Monster)
-Have various ways to deal with social and other similar non-combat situations (silent image, charm person, disguise self, comprehend languages)
-Significantly weaken one or several enemies to the point they can no longer function in combat (Grease, sleep, color spray, ray of enfeeblement)
-Has ways to deal with various environmental obstacles and challenges (Jump, feather fall, floating disk, endure elements)
-Can gain knowledge about situations and objects (Detect X, Identify)
-Gain secure locations for resting (Rope trick)

Level 2:
-Can become immune to entire categories of attacks (Protection from Arrow, blur, see invisibility, glitterdust)
-Can send information over long distances (Whispering Wind)
-Can outclass entire mundane skillsets (Knock, Invisibility)
-Can create permanent effects (Continual Flame)

Level 3:
-Change opponent's mind (Suggestion, Rage)

Level 4:
-Gain permanent servants (Animate Dead)
-Change objects into other objects (Polymorph, stone shape)

Level 5:
-Create any object from nothing (Major creation, Fabricate)
-Know the future (contact other plane)
-Teleportation

Level 6:
-Nothing *really* new here

Level 7:
-Move to other planes

Level 8:
-Prevent resurrection et al (Trap the Soul)

Level 9:
-Be basically immortal (Astral Projection)
-Stop time (Time Stop)
-create a new world (genesis)

Now the wizard can do all these things, without extreme cheese. he can also decide which of them he'd like to do that day. A tier 1 fighter should be on a similar level.

Ingus
2011-10-27, 08:24 AM
I'm starting to think it can be done, believe it or not. I think I'm going to try to design it...

The idea starts with borrowing some of the Artificer's tricks to divorce him from item dependency and allow him to access magic through (Ex) crafting. If I do that right, that'll get him most of the way there on its own. From there I'm not sure where I'll go, but 8 skill points per level and a way to deal level appropriate damage are likely.

It sounds like a good idea. The spellcaster path is univable since we won't him to cast spells and thus the only other way is "artifice".
I support your decision, so look at the followings as suggestion, not critique.

Above all, mind that artificer's power comes with UMD + self crafting + retain essence + craft reserve. It comes, in other terms, with an incredible single-minded synergy in letting it a caster without being a literal one.
And he also is a caster.
So the fighter should have a caster-like progression in non actual casting "things" (spell similars)
Instead of item-buffing infusions only, the T1 fighter could also have strikes à la ToB, self buffing (adrenaline to improve physical, trance/concentration to improve willsaves and stuff), debuffing and battlefield control strikes.

Knaight
2011-10-27, 09:12 AM
Now the wizard can do all these things, without extreme cheese. he can also decide which of them he'd like to do that day. A tier 1 fighter should be on a similar level.

I'm thinking meta-game level mechanics. The fighter gets to alter the narrative fairly directly. Take the mount spells - that could be handled by a broad skill able to pull animals into an area that makes sense, by calling an escaped horse or camel or something.

Ziegander
2011-10-27, 09:19 AM
I think this is about as a close as I can get it without writing an entirely new system.


The Fighter

Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d10
Starting Gold: 6d8x10 (270gp)

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
Craft Reserve|
M. Ready|
Stances

1st|+1|+2|+0|+0|Brew Potion, Master Craftsman, Pack Mule, Trapfinding|
10|
4|
1

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+0|Bonus Feat|
25|
4|
2

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+1|Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Uncanny Dodge|
40|
4|
2

4th|+4|+4|+1|+1|Bonus Feat|
60|
5|
2

5th|+5|+4|+1|+1|Problem Solver|
80|
5|
3

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|Bonus Feat|
100|
6|
3

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+2|Combat Edge +1|
150|
6|
3

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+2|Bonus Feat|
200|
7|
4

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+3|Craft Wondrous Item|
250|
7|
4

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|Bonus Feat|
300|
8|
4

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3|Array of Stunts|
400|
8|
5

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|Bonus Feat|
500|
9|
5

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4|Combat Edge +2|
700|
9|
5

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4|Bonus Feat|
900|
10|
6

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5|Forge Ring|
1200|
10|
6

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5|Bonus Feat|
1500|
11|
6

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|Man of Action|
2000|
11|
7

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|Bonus Feat|
2500|
12|
7

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6|Combat Edge +3|
3000|
12|
7

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|Bonus Feat, Lord of War|
4000|
13|
8
[/table]

Class Skills (8 + Int modifier): Appraise, Autohypnosis, Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Any), Listen, Martial Lore, Move Silently, Perform, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic Device, and Use Rope.

Weapon & Armor Proficiency
A Fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, all armors, and all shields.

Maneuvers & Stances
A Fighter utilizes maneuvers and stances, extraordinary or supernatural expressions of martial arts, to help him deal with foes and other obstacles. Unlike a normal initiator, a Fighter does not have a discrete list of maneuvers or stances known, rather he is familiar with all martial maneuvers and simply needs time to ready them. A Fighter may ready maneuvers from all of the nine disciplines found in the Book of Nine Swords, as well as Amaranth Eclipse (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Amaranth_Eclipse_(3.5e_Martial_Discipline)), Army of One (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Army_of_One_(3.5e_Martial_Discipline)), Black Rain (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Black_Rain_(3.5e_Martial_Discipline)), Chthonic Serpent (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Chthonic_Serpent_(3.5e_Martial_Discipline)), Coin's Edge (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Coin%27s_Edge_(3.5e_Martial_Discipline)), Dancing Goddess (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Dancing_Goddess_(3.5e_Martial_Discipline)), Domestic Terrasque (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Domestic_Tarrasque_(3.5e_Martial_Discipline)), Eternal Glacier (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Eternal_Glacier_(3.5e_Martial_Discipline)), Golem Heart (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Golem_Heart_(3.5e_Martial_Discipline)), Hero's Edge (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Hero%27s_Edge_(3.5e_Martial_Discipline)), Surreptitious Bandit (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Surreptitious_Bandit_(3.5e_Martial_Discipline)), and Thunder Bolt (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Thunder_Bolt_(3.5e_Martial_Discipline)).

Once per day, as long as the Fighter has gotten 8 hours of rest, after 1 hour of practice, he may ready a number of maneuvers and stances up to the numbers given in the M. Ready and Stances columns in the table above, respectively. These maneuvers and stances are readied until his next practice. He may only ready maneuvers and stances once every 24 hours.

To ready a maneuver he must have an initiator level equal to that required of other initiators for learning that maneuver. The Fighter is considered to have known any maneuvers he has readied (for the purposes of meeting prerequisites).

After a Fighter readies his maneuvers he may use them at any time he is able to spend the appropriate initiation time (usually a standard, swift, or immediate action). After a Fighter uses a maneuver it is expended and cannot be used again until it is recovered. A Fighter recovers all of his expended maneuvers after 5 minutes of non-strenuous activity or by spending a swift action on his turn after making an attack or full-attack. He may not initiate maneuvers while he is recovering his maneuvers. Stances are not expended and thus do not need to be recovered.

Master Craftsman (Ex): Whenever a Fighter crafts an item he may use magical tools and/or materials in order to create a magic item. When he does, he has an effective caster level equal to his Fighter level and may ignore any prerequisite spells needed to create the item so long as he possesses the appropriate item creation feat and the spell is of a level no higher than 1/2 his Fighter levels rounded up.

When creating magic items other than potions and scrolls the Fighter crafts a masterwork item using magical tools and/or materials, making the appropriate Craft skill checks against the item's market value as a mundane item not a magic item. This costs the Fighter 1/2 the finished item's market value in GP for the materials and 1/25 the finished item's market value in XP.

For example, if the Fighter wanted to create a Boat of Folding (CL 6), he would need to be 6th level or higher, build a masterwork boat with Craft (Woodworking) skill checks, and possess the Craft Wondrous Item feat.

This ability allows the Fighter to craft alchemical items as though he were a spellcaster, and when using the Brew Potion feat he must make Craft (Alchemy) checks against the item's value.

Craft Reserve
A Fighter receives a pool of points he can spend instead of experience points when crafting a magic item. Each time the Fighter gains a new level, he receives a new craft reserve; leftover points from the previous level do not carry over. If the points are not spent, they are lost. A Fighter can also use his craft reserve to supplement the XP cost of the item he is making, taking a portion of the cost from his craft reserve and a portion from his own XP.

Pack Mule (Ex): Fighters are used to long journeys with a heavy pack and the use of a wide variety of weaponry and equipment. A Fighter suffers no penalties for carrying a medium load, and may retrieve any stored item from his person as a move action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.

Trapfinding (Ex): Fighters can search for and disable traps in the same way Rogues can.

Creation Feats
A Fighter receives the Brew Potion feat as a bonus feat at 1st level, the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat as a bonus feat at 3rd level, the Craft Wondrous Item feat as a bonus feat at 9th level, and the Forge Ring feat as a bonus feat at 15th level. He need not meet the prerequisites of these bonus feats.

Additionally, he may take other item creation feats using his effective caster level to meet the prerequisites.

Bonus Feats
At 2nd level and every even level thereafter, a Fighter gains a bonus feat from the list of Fighter Bonus Feats. He must meet all prerequisites of any feat gained in this way except for ability score requirements. Anytime the Fighter readies his maneuvers and stances he may choose to lose all Fighter Bonus Feats gained in this way to gain an equal number of new Fighter Bonus Feats that he meets the prerequisites for (save the ability score requirements).

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): As Barbarian.

Problem Solver (Ex): Starting at 5th level, when a Fighter readies his maneuvers and stances he may also ready a number of contingent actions equal to his Intelligence modifier (minimum 1). Contingent actions are like readied actions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm#ready) (PHB 160) except that you may take them at any time in the next 24 hours and after you take a contingent action your initiative count does not change.

Combat Edge (Ex): Starting at 7th level, the Fighter is treated for all beneficial purposes as a creature one size category larger than he is. At 13th level he is treated as a creature two size categories larger, and at 19th level he is treated as a creature three size categories larger. This ability does not allow the Fighter to wield oversized weapons without difficulty though it will increase his reach.

Array of Stunts (Ex): Starting at 11th level, a Fighter does not lose his next turn's swift action after he uses an immediate action.

Man of Action (Ex): Starting at 17th level, a Fighter may take two swift actions on his turn. Further, he may exchange two swift actions for an extra standard action.

Lord of War (Ex): A 20th level Fighter is never surprised, never flat-footed, and cannot be flanked. If he threatens a creature that gains less than +1 to base attack bonus per HD, then that creature is flat-footed and considered flanked by the Fighter and all of his allies regardless of their actual positions. When he hits a creature with an attack of opportunity that creature must make a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 Fighter level + Dexterity modifier) to avoid being treated as helpless and struck by a coup de grace.


What I don't like about it, compared to a Wizard or Cleric, is that any idiot could pick it up and be a very strong Tier 3 character, but it's very easy for poor player choice to result in a Wizard or Cleric build that's as weak as the CW Samurai.

Eldan
2011-10-27, 09:24 AM
Actually, that sounds like a high Tier 3, with the exception of Master Craftsman, which, unless I'm mistaken, is better than the Artificer and probably utterly broken.

So, yes, I guess that's Tier 1. But not because he'd do anything really fighterish with it, but because he can copy an Artificer's entire shtick, which is copying a wizard's tricks via items.

gkathellar
2011-10-27, 09:30 AM
Damn, that was fast work.

It's good, it probably hits Tier 1, but I agree with Eldan, it only does it because of Master Craftsman (and that little bit of action economy breakage it gets at 5, 11 and 17). So yeah, it's Tier 1 because it's a variant of an existing Tier 1 class.

Ziegander
2011-10-27, 09:38 AM
Actually, that sounds like a high Tier 3, with the exception of Master Craftsman, which, unless I'm mistaken, is better than the Artificer and probably utterly broken.

Well, it's different than the Artificer's ability, in some ways worse, in some ways better. The only real advantage I can see is that the Fighter is able to make his items a lot faster than an Artificer can. The Artificer of course has the advantages of being able to make magic items at +2 caster level (meaning scrolls one full spell level ahead of any caster), having a slightly bigger craft reserve, getting all the item creation feats, and getting nice stuff like retain essence, metamagic spell trigger and metamagic spell completion.

The Artificer's Item Creation class feature is utterly broken after all, and I was aiming for something that would bring the Fighter to a similar power level.

I'm gonna go ahead and eliminate the synergy bonuses part, because I had forgotten how easy Craft skill checks actually are.

Eldan
2011-10-27, 09:43 AM
Yeah, the problem here is that this guy will, similar to the artificer, be a wizard in disguise.

He has full BAB and a few fighting abilities, but his best bet at being a tier one is carrying a stack of wands and pumping UMD.

Ziegander
2011-10-27, 09:57 AM
Yeah, the problem here is that this guy will, similar to the artificer, be a wizard in disguise.

Like I said, it's the best I can do without writing a completely new system. When the only way to reach Tier 1 is with spells, but you don't want to cast spells, ripping off the Artificer is the only thing that can be done.

SamBurke
2011-10-27, 10:06 AM
Now, I haven't looked through all 20+ disciplines he gets, but I have to ask: are they varied enough to take on EVERY enemy in the game (see an earlier comment of mine)? The recovery mechanic is pretty awesome, and useful.

I have to agree, though, that the crafting boosts this class most: but I think the maneuvers do as well. It feels like a wizard of strategy and techniques, to me, which is AWESOME.

Ziegander, you are still the king of Fighter fixes.

gkathellar
2011-10-27, 10:11 AM
And thus the point: you can't make a Tier 1 fighter.

Oh, sure. You can make a Tier 1 class that fights. You can make a Tier 1 class that's called a fighter. And you can make a Tier 1 class that also happens to be a high Tier 3 fighter in addition to being a Tier 1 caster.

The druid is already that last one. Uh ... twice.

But you can't make a Tier 1 fighter because a fighter's schtick is, intrinsically, not about stopping time or creating new universes or starting the wightocalypse. It's about hitting, and hitting is a Tier 3 (maybe 2, if you're a DMM-persist cleric or in a powerful wildshape) activity at most.

Ziegander
2011-10-27, 10:11 AM
Now, I haven't looked through all 20+ disciplines he gets, but I have to ask: are they varied enough to take on EVERY enemy in the game (see an earlier comment of mine)? The recovery mechanic is pretty awesome, and useful.

They certainly help. There is a great mixture of mobility, melee, and ranged combat in those disciplines as well as elemental damage and DR negating. They offer a plethora of options and the ability to switch out what maneuvers and stances he uses on a day by day basis, as well as what fighter bonus feats he's got, really lends to his ability to deal with all comers.


Ziegander, you are still the king of Fighter fixes.

*Bow* :smallsmile:

I'm tempted to play a character using the Fightificer that's a "monk" with ranks in Craft (Alchemy) and Craft (Bookbinding) who fights while wearing no armor, carrying no shield, and wielding no weapon. He brews beers and meads that grant him various powers and keeps scrolls of ancestral wisdom. A Human allows the concept to work from level 1 (Improved Unarmed Strike and Scribe Scroll feats).

SamBurke
2011-10-27, 10:15 AM
They certainly help. There is a great mixture of mobility, melee, and ranged combat in those disciplines as well as elemental damage and DR negating. They offer a plethora of options and the ability to switch out what maneuvers and stances he uses on a day by day basis, as well as what fighter bonus feats he's got, really lends to his ability to deal with all comers.


OK, good. So, the basic question of versatility is answered. (Pardon my newness to ToB and its homebrew successors here). Basic attack and defense spells, the majority of normal-powered (HA!) spells on the Wizard's list are accounted for. Now?

The big stuff. Gate. Wish. Genesis. Death Effects. Resurrection. Can a Discipline do that?

[Note, I'm trying to determine the power of the class apart from what appears on first glance to be the most powerful part of the character.]

gkathellar
2011-10-27, 10:19 AM
The big stuff. Gate. Wish. Genesis. Death Effects. Resurrection. Can a Discipline do that?

No, no, sort of, and no. Disciplines are great: they give you all kinds of damage powers and some cool bonuses and resistances and options and IRON HEART SURGE! But they don't break the game the way spells do.

Ziegander
2011-10-27, 10:19 AM
The big stuff. Gate. Wish. Genesis. Death Effects. Resurrection. Can a Discipline do that?

Death effects, yes, but the rest, no. That's where he'll need to rely on Master Craftsman.

SamBurke
2011-10-27, 10:29 AM
Death effects, yes, but the rest, no. That's where he'll need to rely on Master Craftsman.

Ok... So, sounds like someone needs to make a specialized Arcane Discipline... HM. I WONDER WHO THAT SHOULD BE... :smallwink:

Also, I think this class could benefit from your Techniques (which have already been mentioned in this thread).

kaiguy
2011-10-27, 10:47 AM
I think, and I think this thread shows, that it's not possible to make a Tier 1 fighter. If you want to even the gap between fighters and wizards, it's better to bring the wizard down to tier 3. And there's no way to do that without throwing out almost the entire magic system and starting over.

Which I think would make a more interesting game anyway.

Curious
2011-10-27, 11:31 AM
This thread interests me. I'm gonna give this 'create a tier 1 fighter' thing a try, once I have a little more time.

jojolagger
2011-10-27, 11:35 AM
Some ideas that might help move the fighter closer to T1 without any special access to magic. Probably only somewhere in T2, but could probably put up an interesting fight against the T1 casters. OffenseFirst, at least 2 BAB per level. maxing out at 8 attacks.
Ability to wield oversized weapons to a limit of 1 size larger per level.
Ability to make attacks touch attacks.
Faster favoured enemy progression than the ranger. (every second level?)
Unlimited AoO each round
Charge through difficult terrain
Big increases to crititical Threat range, (1 bigger per 4 levels?)
Furious counterstrike (but divided by 3 and not limited to 6)
Lots of manuvers and stances, using all diciplines. (likely with ability to use all weapons as aptitude weapons).
Proficency with all weapons.


Defense
d12 hd. Extra HP equal to your fighter level gained each level (retroactivly).
Sr equalt to 10 + (2*Level).
Fast healing upgrading to regeneration.
DR/- equal to at least level
Immunities to most status effects, and the common stuff like poison and disease.
Immunity to all forms of scrying, including deific.
Full good Saves.
Uncanny Dodge and improved.
Evasion and improved
Mettle and improved
Immunity to aging
Steely Resolve, but 5 every odd level and holds damage for as many turns as you have levels.

Utility
Then throw in all the features of each ToB Class. Including the manuvers.
6 + int skills at minimum, and a wider skill list (UMD, Ijastu focus, and lucid dreaming should be included).
+1/level untyped bonus to all skills
Fighter bonus feats become float feats changable daily, and an extra 2 feats per level.
Lore/Bardic knowledge
Tounge of sun and moon like ability, only not limited to living and earlier
Rerolls. Lot's of rerolls. (1/level/encounter?)
Can take ten on one skill per level, regardless of where or not taking ten would normally be allowed.
Stance mastery, but at levels 10 and 20.

Movement
Then abilities to Ignore ACP and theslow move speed from armour.
Monk fast movement and slow fall, without limitations
Fly speed equalt to twice move speed at good manuverability.
Monk like abundant step, but far more uses, and per encounter.
+Level to Initative

Draco Ignifer
2011-10-27, 11:39 AM
My personal thought on how to make a T1 fighter is to look at mythology. Mythological heroes tend to have at least one of three main factors going for them. First, rather than being hulk smash types, they overcome their foes with a combination of power, skill, and guile. Heracles strangled the Neman Lion, but he burned the heads of the hydra, shot the Stymphalian birds, and diverted a river to clean the Augean stables. He's a versatile man. Second, they literally do the impossible. Heracles diverts a river, holds up the sky, creates giant rock pillars as guideposts, and wrestled the dog who guards Hell itself into submission and dragged it kicking and snarling across Greece. He is considered the son of a God, and for good reason. Lastly, they have legendary treasures helping them, but - and this is key - those treasures, as strong as they are, are only legends because a hero used them. There are no legends of the Neman Lion pelt.

With that in mind, here are my preliminary suggestions:
Warblade maneuvers. That handles the power.
8 skill points per level. Keep the fighter skills, but maybe add in some new ones too. Nothing like disable device or UMD, but things like spot, listen, bluff, etc..
One feat per level.
One extra "versatile" feat every three? levels. These can be switched out each day, like a cleric's spells. All prerequisites must be met, but can be met by versatile feats.
A very limited enchant item power. I'm thinking just ape the artificer's power, but no limited-use items or rings - limit it to weapons, armor, shields, magic devices. Said items are also only usable by the fighter, or by someone who earns them from him - these are his legendary tools, not toys he makes to give away like Santa. On the other hand, most should count as extraordinary or supernatural rather than magic. This definitely needs more thinking.
Legendary abilities. The ability for the fighter to break the rules. I'm not sure how I'd do this, but I'm thinking a set of legendary abilities to choose from (e.g., legendary strength, legendary swordsman, legendary archer, legendary skill, legendary senses) that give him increasing powers with that specialty. A legendary archer might start off just treating his bow as a melee weapon for all beneficial purposes, then gain the ability to ignore range penalties, moderate weather, and some cover, then finally the ability to ignore maximum range, any weather, and any cover. A legendary strongman might add his level to his strength, then later multiply his carrying capacity by 100, add 20 to strength checks, and ignore hardness, and finally ignore carrying capacity and add 100 to strength checks, and gain a disintegrate-like power when attacking inanimate objects. Again, this needs a lot of work.

As for how he gets these abilities? He basically becomes larger than life because of his own legend. He draws on the legend itself to do the extraordinary, and his extraordinary deeds create new legends. In effect, he's something similar to a God, empowered by the hopes and dreams of the world rather than the worship of believers.

Sound like what you had in mind?

SamBurke
2011-10-27, 11:46 AM
Some ideas that might help move the fighter closer to T1 without any special access to magic. Probably only somewhere in T2, but could probably put up an interesting fight against the T1 casters. OffenseFirst, at least 2 BAB per level. maxing out at 8 attacks.
Ability to wield oversized weapons to a limit of 1 size larger per level.
Ability to make attacks touch attacks.
Faster favoured enemy progression than the ranger. (every second level?)
Unlimited AoO each round
Charge through difficult terrain
Big increases to crititical Threat range, (1 bigger per 4 levels?)
Furious counterstrike (but divided by 3 and not limited to 6)
Lots of manuvers and stances, using all diciplines. (likely with ability to use all weapons as aptitude weapons).
Proficency with all weapons.


Defense
d12 hd. Extra HP equal to your fighter level gained each level (retroactivly).
Sr equalt to 10 + (2*Level).
Fast healing upgrading to regeneration.
DR/- equal to at least level
Immunities to most status effects, and the common stuff like poison and disease.
Immunity to all forms of scrying, including deific.
Full good Saves.
Uncanny Dodge and improved.
Evasion and improved
Mettle and improved
Immunity to aging
Steely Resolve, but 5 every odd level and holds damage for as many turns as you have levels.

Utility
Then throw in all the features of each ToB Class. Including the manuvers.
6 + int skills at minimum, and a wider skill list (UMD, Ijastu focus, and lucid dreaming should be included).
+1/level untyped bonus to all skills
Fighter bonus feats become float feats changable daily, and an extra 2 feats per level.
Lore/Bardic knowledge
Tounge of sun and moon like ability, only not limited to living and earlier
Rerolls. Lot's of rerolls. (1/level/encounter?)
Can take ten on one skill per level, regardless of where or not taking ten would normally be allowed.
Stance mastery, but at levels 10 and 20.

Movement
Then abilities to Ignore ACP and theslow move speed from armour.
Monk fast movement and slow fall, without limitations
Fly speed equalt to twice move speed at good manuverability.
Monk like abundant step, but far more uses, and per encounter.
+Level to Initative


WHAT HAVE YOU DONE!?! IT'S ALIVE.

Also, Wizards every where cried out and were suddenly silenced.

This is at least tier 1, if only because it can't possibly get hurt.

tempestman
2011-10-27, 12:03 PM
While this is by no means a Tier 1 Fighter (probably Tier 3?), it might be a good start. It has party support via marshal auras, the ability to take immediate actions, and several abilities that increase its defensive effectiveness. I couldn't think of anything for Lv 13 though, so it's a dead level for the time being.

Fighter

Game Rule Information

Abilities: Strength and Constitution are the two most important abilities for most fighters, increasing their damage with most weapons and granting them more hit points. Archers and lightly-armored fighters benefit from a high Dexterity score, and a good Charisma increases the fighter’s bolstering auras.

Alignment: Any

Hit Die: d10

Starting Gold: 6d4 x 10 (150 gp)

Class Skills: The fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (architecture and engineering) (Int), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int Modifier) x 4

Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int Modifier


{table=head]Level|
Base Attack Bonus|
Fort Save|
Ref Save|
Will Save|
Special|
AC Bonus|
Minor Auras Known|
Major Auras Known

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+2|Bonus Feat, Minor Aura, Weapon of Legacy|+0|1|0

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|Bonus Feat, Major Aura (+1), Uncanny Dodge|+0|1|1

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+3|Armored Mobility (1)|+0|2|1

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+4|Bonus Feat, Immediate Action (Move)|+0|2|1

5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+4|Improved Uncanny Dodge, Major Aura (+2)|+1|3|2

6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+5|
+5|Bonus Feat|+1|3|2

7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+5| Armored Mobility (2)|+1|4|2

8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+6|
+6|Bonus Feat, Major Aura (+3)|+1|4|2

9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+6|Armor Mastery, Improved Flanking|+1|5|3

10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+7|
+7|Bonus Feat, Immediate Action (Standard)|+2|5|3

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+7|
+7|Armored Mobility (3), Major Aura (+4)|+2|5|3

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+8|
+8|Bonus Feat|+2|6|3

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+8|
+8|-|+2|6|3

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+9|
+9|Bonus Feat, Major Aura (+5)|+2|6|4

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+9|
+9|Armored Mobility (4), Overwhelming Assault|+3|7|4

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+10|
+10|Bonus Feat, Immediate Action (Full)|+3|7|4

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+10|Impetuous Endurance, Major Aura (+6)|+3|7|4

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+11|
+11|Bonus Feat|+3|7|4

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+11|Battlefield Juggernaut|+3|8|4

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+12|
+12|Bonus Feat, Legendary Warrior, Major Aura (+7)|+4|8| 5[/table]

Class Features: All of the following are class features of the fighter class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and will all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

AC Bonus (Ex): The fighter is highly trained at dodging blows, and he has a sixth sense that lets him avoid even unanticipated attacks. The fighter adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level and every five fighter levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th).

Aura (Ex): The fighter exerts an effect on allies in his vicinity. He can learn to produce different effects, or auras, over the course of his career. The fighter may project one minor aura and (starting at 2nd level) one major at a time.

Projecting an aura is a swift action. The aura remains in effect until the fighter uses a free action to dismiss it or activates another aura of the same kind (major or minor). A fighter can have an aura active continually; thus, an aura can be in effect at the start of a combat encounter even before the fighter takes his first turn.

Activating an aura involves haranguing, ordering, direction, encouraging, cajoling, or calming allies. A fighter sizes up the enemy, allies, and the terrain, then gives allies the direction that they can use to do their best.

Unless otherwise noted, a fighter’s aura affects all allies within 60 feet (including himself) who can hear the fighter. An ally must have an Intelligence score of 3 or higher and be able to understand the fighter’s language to gain the bonus. Fighter’s aura is dismissed if he is dazed, unconscious, stunned, paralyzed, or otherwise unable to be heard or understood by his allies.

A fighter begins play knowing one minor aura of his choice. As his fighter level increases, he gains access to new auras, as indicated on the table above.

All bonuses granted by a fighter’s auras are circumstance bonuses that do not stack with each other.

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.

Minor Aura: A minor aura lets allies add the fighter’s Charisma bonus (minimum 1) to certain rolls.


Accurate Strike: Bonus on rolls made to confirm critical hits.
Art of War: Bonus on disarm, trip, bull rush, and sunder attempts.
Demand Fortitude: Bonus on Fortitude saves.
Determined Caster: Bonus on rolls to overcome spell resistance.
Force of Will: Bonus on Will saves.
Master of Opportunity: Bonus to Armor Class against attacks of opportunity.
Master of Tactics: Bonus on damage rolls when flanking.
Motivate Charisma: Bonus on Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks.
Motivate Constitution: Bonus on Constitution checks and Constitution-based skill checks.
Motivate Dexterity: Bonus on Dexterity checks and Wisdom-based skill checks.
Motivate Intelligence: Bonus on Intelligence checks and Intelligence-based skill checks.
Motivate Strength: Bonus on Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks.
Motivate Wisdom: Bonus on Wisdom checks and Wisdom-based skill checks.
Over the Top: Bonus on damage rolls when charging.
Watchful Eye: Bonus on Reflex saves.


Weapon of Legacy: A fighter starts play with a legacy weapon of his choice (legacy weapons can be found in various books such as Weapons of Legacy). The fighter still needs to meet the weapon’s wielder requirements and complete the legacy rituals in order to unlock the weapon’s special abilities, but unlike most characters, he does not have to play the personal costs of the weapon in order to advance its power.

A fighter inherently knows where his legacy weapon is at all times as if he and the item were under the effects of discern location.

Major Aura: Beginning at 2nd level, a fighter can project a major aura in addition to his minor aura. A major aura lets allies add +1 to certain rolls. This bonus improves by +1 at 5th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th, and 20th level.


Hardy Soldiers: The fighter’s allies gain damage reduction equal to the amount of bonus the aura provides. For example, if the fighter is 10th level, everyone affected gains DR 3/-.
Motivate Ardor: Bonus on damage rolls.
Motivate Attack: Bonus on melee attack rolls.
Motivate Care: Bonus to Armor Class.
Motivate Urgency: Allies’ base land speed is increased by a number of feet equal to 5 x the amount of bonus the aura provides. For example, the allies of a 10th level fighter (+3 major aura) add 15 feet to their base land speed.
Resilient Troops: Bonus on all saves.
Steady Hand: Bonus on ranged attack rolls.


Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a fighter gains the ability to react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

If a fighter already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.

Armored Mobility (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter’s ability to fight in armor is greatly improved. Whenever he is wearing armor, the fighter reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0), increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1, and reduces his movement speed penalty by 5 feet. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum of -4 reduction of the armor check penalty, a +4 increase of the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed, and reduces his movement speed penalty by another 5 feet.

Immediate Action (Ex): At 4th level, a fighter can immediately make a move action. However, this comes at a cost and for 1 round the fighter is fatigued and suffers a -2 penalty to his Armor Class for 1 round. A fighter can use this ability a number of times per day equal to his Dexterity modifier (minimum 1 per day).

At 10th level, a fighter can immediately make a standard action. At 16th level he can immediately make a full-round action.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 5th level and higher, a fighter can no longer be flanked; he can react to opponents on opposite sides of him as easily as he can react to a single attacker. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the fighter by flanking him, unless the attack has at least four more rogue levels than the target has fighter levels.

If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character.

Armor Mastery (Ex): Starting at 9th level, a whenever a fighter is wearing armor he gains 25% fortification and DR/- equal to one-half the armor bonus provided by his armor. For example, a fighter wearing +1 full plate (+9 AC) gains DR 4/-.

Improved Flanking (Ex): A fighter of 9th level or higher becomes an excellent tactical combatant. When flanking an opponent, the fighter gains a +4 bonus on attacks instead of a +2 bonus on attacks.

Overwhelming Assault (Ex): Starting at 15th level, a fighter always deals maximum weapon damage with his normal attacks. A fighter must still roll critical damage normally.

Impetuous Endurance (Ex): Starting at 17th level, a fighter’s spirit enables him to push himself beyond the normal limits of endurance. He no longer automatically fails a saving throw on a roll of 1. He might still fail the save if his result fails to equal or beat the DC.

Battlefield Juggernaut (Ex): At 19th level and higher, a fighter becomes a force to be reckoned with on the battlefield. He permanently gains DR 5/- (which stacks with any damage reduction he gains from the Armor Mastery class ability) and while wearing armor his fortification increases to 50% and his armor bonus to AC by 2.

Legendary Warrior (Ex): At 20th level a fighter’s weapon mastery is complete. Any attacks the fighter makes with his legacy weapon automatically confirm all critical threats and have their damage multiplier increased by 1 (x2 becomes x3, for example). In addition, he cannot be disarmed while wielding his legacy weapon.

gkathellar
2011-10-27, 12:15 PM
I think, and I think this thread shows, that it's not possible to make a Tier 1 fighter. If you want to even the gap between fighters and wizards, it's better to bring the wizard down to tier 3. And there's no way to do that without throwing out almost the entire magic system and starting over.

Sometimes. I honestly regard D&D as two separate games on occasion. There's Tier 3-4, where you play epic (but limited) heroes, and then there's Tier 1-2, where you play demigods.

They're both fun games! And what's great is that if you know the core mechanics for one, you know the core mechanics for the other. But they're different games.

Eldan
2011-10-27, 12:28 PM
Sometimes. I honestly regard D&D as two separate games on occasion. There's Tier 3-4, where you play epic (but limited) heroes, and then there's Tier 1-2, where you play demigods.

They're both fun games! And what's great is that if you know the core mechanics for one, you know the core mechanics for the other. But they're different games.

That's my approach as well, and the one I'd recommend.

Phosphate
2011-10-27, 12:54 PM
All you have to do to make Fighters Tier 1 is make them gain Leadership as a bonus feat at level 1, and FORBID all other classes from having access to it.

SamBurke
2011-10-27, 01:10 PM
All you have to do to make Fighters Tier 1 is make them gain Leadership as a bonus feat at level 1, and FORBID all other classes from having access to it.

The only way that would help is if they had Wizard cohorts... Which kinda defeats the whole purpose.

Phosphate
2011-10-27, 01:31 PM
The only way that would help is if they had Wizard cohorts... Which kinda defeats the whole purpose.

It is SORT of the only thing I can think about...well, or you can do the BLOCK THE EARTH thing, naturally.

Mulletmanalive
2011-10-27, 04:27 PM
I can think of only one Tier 1 fighter from fiction. Chuck Norris. Think about the jokes...

Created the universe by roundhouse kick to the face: Nothingness experienced pain through his sheer prowess and was forced to evolve into something to give context to its suffering. Not magical but universe creation.

He does not read, he simply stared down the book until it tells him what he wants to know: Fear of the man creates life or at least animates inanimate objects...

He has only two speeds; walk and kill: Death effects and temporal manipulation.

His beard does not conceal a chin but another fist: Shapeshifting and bodily adaption.

The only sound that can be heard in space is the sound of Chuck Norris roundhouse kicking someone else: Screw you physics!

Chuck Norris was actually the fourth wise man but...yadda yadda yadda: Time travel and rewriting the circumstances of reality.

Rule one: never pull a gun on Chuck Norris while you are withing drop-kicking range. Rule two: you are always within drop kicking range: Ranged attacks without any form of magical or projectile influence, dimensional translocation and future prediction.

And also...have you ever seen Walker Texas Ranger or Lone Wolf McQuaid? He's so manly that the cars he drives grow extra engines and burrow speeds. In the Octagon, he cause a man who couldn't be beaten in combat [GM Fiat/his contract said so] to flee so he could be defeated by Chuck Norris fiat.

The only other comparable is Flex Mentalo...the master of Matter over Mind...

Ziegander
2011-10-27, 05:36 PM
The big stuff. Gate. Wish. Genesis. Death Effects. Resurrection.


Ok... So, sounds like someone needs to make a specialized Arcane Discipline... HM. I WONDER WHO THAT SHOULD BE... :smallwink:

Hm... so... a special spell-like discipline that somehow offers up PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER while managing to not be unbalanced when compared against the lowly Nine Swords disciplines... I have an idea.

The principle that ties the discipline together will be Psionic Focus. Or rather something that operates in a nearly identical way but that is not actually Psionic Focus. In order to expend a readied maneuver of this spell-like discipline the initiator must also expend his focus. In order to recover an expended maneuver from this spell-like discipline the initiator must regain his focus. These maneuvers stay readied until they have been expended, even if the initiator uses something like Adaptive Style to change their readied maneuvers, and they explicitly do not recover at the start of each encounter or after any period of time. It may not work out to be enough of a limitation, but I suppose it is worth a try.

Eldariel
2011-10-27, 05:41 PM
If you allow Fighter to punch reality so hard reality conforms to Fighter's will, this'll probably work. Anything short of that will have trouble being Tier 1.

SamBurke
2011-10-27, 06:02 PM
Hm... so... a special spell-like discipline that somehow offers up PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER while managing to not be unbalanced when compared against the lowly Nine Swords disciplines... I have an idea.

The principle that ties the discipline together will be Psionic Focus. Or rather something that operates in a nearly identical way but that is not actually Psionic Focus. In order to expend a readied maneuver of this spell-like discipline the initiator must also expend his focus. In order to recover an expended maneuver from this spell-like discipline the initiator must regain his focus. These maneuvers stay readied until they have been expended, even if the initiator uses something like Adaptive Style to change their readied maneuvers, and they explicitly do not recover at the start of each encounter or after any period of time. It may not work out to be enough of a limitation, but I suppose it is worth a try.

Now that's a fix! I'll PEACH, if you like.

dspeyer
2011-10-27, 08:40 PM
The Martial Prodigy

some people don't need to be taught

BAB: full
Good Saves: fort and ref
Skill Points: 4+int
Class Skills: all
Schools: Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Setting Sun, Stone Dragon, White Raven, Falcon's Eye (http://age-of-warriors.appspot.com/school?school=Falcon%27s%20Eye), Iron Rain (http://age-of-warriors.appspot.com/school?school=Iron%20Rain), Chthonic Serpent (http://age-of-warriors.appspot.com/school?school=Chthonic Serpent), Maula Kae (http://age-of-warriors.appspot.com/school?school=Maula Kae), Piercing Point (http://age-of-warriors.appspot.com/school?school=Piercing Point), Steel Mountain (http://age-of-warriors.appspot.com/school?school=Steel Mountain), Oncoming Storm (http://age-of-warriors.appspot.com/school?school=Oncoming Storm), Broken Blade (http://age-of-warriors.appspot.com/school?school=Broken%20Blade)
Readied Maneuvers: class level plus 2

As a martial prodigy, you need not learn maneuvers. You work them out from first principles as needed. It takes you five minutes of thought and practice to replace one of your readied maneuvers or one hour to replace all of them. When picking new maneuvers, select from the above schools, the below special maneuvers, or custom maneuvers of comparable power with DM's approval. Once a maneuver is readied, you may use it all you like -- it is never expended. You can ready a stance like any other maneuver, in which case you can switch to it as a free action. You can also switch to a stance you have not readied in one minute of practice without effecting your readied maneuvers.

Additional maneuvers:

Time Slows Down:
Diamond Mind (Boost)
Level: 3
Action: swift

Take a free move action


Time Crawls:
Diamond Mind (Boost)
Level: 5
Action: swift

Take a free standard action



Time Stands Still (improved):
Diamond Mind (Boost)
Level: 9
Action: swift

Take a free move and standard action, or a free full-round action



Ricochet:
Falcon's Eye (Strike)
Level: 3
Action: Standard

Make a ranged attack normally. If it hits, attack another target with the ricochet (or the arrow coming out the back, or blood-spatter-to-the-eye, or whatever mechanism pleases you). Continue making attacks until one misses. Each takes a cumulative -1 penalty.


Knock Silly:
Stone Dragon (Strike)
Level: 3
Action: Standard

Make an attack with a bludgeoning weapon at a -5 penalty. If it succeeds, the target must make a will save (dc damage dealt) or be knocked silly for one round. A creature that is knocked silly takes no actions, and believes anything he is told regardless of evidence. After 1 minute, the victim can make an new will save (same dc) if he encounters contradictory evidence. After 1 hour, he can reexamine his belief normally.


Natural Leaper:
Tiger Claw (Stance)
Level: 3

While in this stance, you may leap up to 500ft in the air as a free action, take a standard action while at the peak of your jump, and take no damage for falling back down.


Awesome Leap:
Tiger Claw (Other)
Level: 5
Action: Standard

You may jump to any point on the surface of the world provided you know the distance and direction. You may carry up to twice your weight in equipment or passengers. While you take no damage, whatever you land on takes 10d6 bludgeoning and 1d6 fire. Mobile creatures can avoid you with a dc 10 reflex save.


Preposterous Leap:
Tiger Claw (Other)
Level: 7
Action: Standard

Like awesome leap, but you can land on another plane.


Instant Response:
Iron Heart (Counter)
Level: 5
Action: Immediate

When combat begins, you may jump to the top of the initiative order.

Prime32
2011-10-27, 08:52 PM
I can think of only one Tier 1 fighter from fiction. Chuck Norris. Think about the jokes...

*snip*When I tried to make a high-tier fighter I based it on Jack Rakan (outskirtsbattledome.wikispaces.com/Character+Profile+-+Jack+Rakan), who is basically what happens when Chuck Norris jokes are played seriously.

SamBurke
2011-10-27, 11:58 PM
Here's a new discipline that might help... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12113719#post12113719)

Yitzi
2011-10-28, 11:13 AM
Some ideas that might help (lifted from a mix of a few eventually-tier-2 variants of existing classes, and powered-up versions of some tier 3 fixes, I've been playing around with):

-Determination: The ability starts off by giving him a substantial bonus (maybe equal to level) on saves against fear, death, and compulsion effects (and if it doesn't allow a save, he gets a save (Fort for death effects, Will for everything else) with the bonus. Later on, he gains the ability to automatically succeed on such saves (unless he chooses to forfeit it), and any effect negated by Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, or Dimensional Anchor is subject to this ability.
-Battle Insight: Starts off by giving him Uncanny dodge, plus doing for all illusion and charm spells and sense motive checks what Determination does for fear/death/compulsion. It does not work when both the attacker (or spellcaster) and fighter are flat-footed (have not yet rolled initiative). Later on, it increases the same way Determination does.
-Weapon Specialization: Now instead of the existing feature, allows any "sacrifice attack bonus for X" feats to be used with the chosen weapon without sacrificing anything. Greater Weapon Specialization also doubles the bonus.
-Combat Maneuver Mastery: If a fighter has a combat maneuver feat for a maneuver that involves opposed checks (but not skill checks), he may negate any bonus his opponent has at the cost of negating the equivalent bonus for himself.
-Bonus Hit Dice: Every 3 levels, the fighter gets a bonus hit die. This hit die boosts hit points, saves, skills (fighter class skills only), and BAB (as well as anything affected by hit dice) as if it were a level of fighter, but does not contribute to ECL or give any class features.
-Mounted Combat Mastery: A fighter may use Mounted Combat (if he has it) an unlimited number of times per round, and he may add any dodge bonus he has to the ride check. His mount gains the benefit of all his defensive class features. (This is mainly to deal with the mobility issue, by letting him use flying mounts without creating a vulnerable point.)
-Superior Evasion: Evasion, plus does for all damaging magical effects that do not require attack rolls what Battle Insight does for illusion. If it does require an attack roll, the fighter adds his Reflex save modifier (except for his Dexterity bonus) to his AC for the purpose.
-Break Wall: Adds his level and any one ability bonus of his choice (other than STR) to his strength check to break barriers. Walls of Force can be broken with this, at a DC of 20.

Edit: Another really important one I forgot:
Combat reactions: Greater Celerity at-will as an extraordinary ability.

Eldan
2011-10-28, 12:35 PM
One ability that I liked (which would probably also be called something like Determination) was that the Fighter could ignore the effects of all failed saves (and secondary effects on successful saves) for X rounds.

Yes, he failed his save against Finger of Death, but his Willpower keeps him walking for another 30 seconds before he falls over. Which he will use to pound you into a fine powder.

Eldan
2011-10-28, 12:39 PM
One ability that I liked (which would probably also be called something like Determination) was that the Fighter could ignore the effects of all failed saves (and secondary effects on successful saves) for X rounds.

Yes, he failed his save against Finger of Death, but his Willpower keeps him walking for another 30 seconds before he falls over. Which he will use to pound you into a fine powder.

Eldan
2011-10-28, 12:47 PM
One ability that I liked (which would probably also be called something like Determination) was that the Fighter could ignore the effects of all failed saves (and secondary effects on successful saves) for X rounds.

Yes, he failed his save against Finger of Death, but his Willpower keeps him walking for another 30 seconds before he falls over. Which he will use to pound you into a fine powder.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-10-28, 12:51 PM
A tier 1 fighter, eh?

Interesting challenge. Consider it accepted.

*wanders off to brainstorm*

Frozen_Feet
2011-10-28, 01:33 PM
My own ideas:

BAB: Good
Saves: All Good.
Hit Die: d12

Skills: All, expect Spellcraft and Use Magic Device.

Skillpoints: 8

Class features:

Starts with same proficiencies as normal.

Maneuver progression: As Warblade, with all disciplines allowed.

Sneak Attack: As Rogue

Rage: As Barbarian

Flurry of Blows, Unarmed strike damage: As Monk

Fast Movement: As Monk, expect the bonus is untyped instead of enhancement.

All non-supernatural Rage Feats, Rogue Feats and Monk Feats are added to list of Fighter Feats, including Epic Feats for those classes, with the expection of Craven (who wants to be a coward?).

Mettle at 1st level

Evasion and Uncanny Dodge at 2nd level

At 3rd level, Fighter becomes proficient with all weapons.

Starting from 4th level, Fighter get untyped bonus to all STR and DEX based skill and ability checks equal to his BAB. At 8th level, this bonus is doubled, and extended to Auto-Hypnosis, Intimidate, Craft, Spot, Listen, Search, Handle Animal, Bluff, Sense Motive and Survival. At 12th level, this bonus is tripled, and quadrupled at 16th.

Starting from 4th, he also gets untyped bonus to STR, DEX and CON equal to half his Fighter level.

At 6th level, Fighter gains all Fighter Feats he meets the prerequisites for. If he already has some feat and there would be no benefit to taking that feat twice, he gets to pick one general feat instead. Any feats he doesn't meet prerequisites for he gains the second he meets those prerequisites.

At 7th level and every level after that, he gains one more of all Fighter Feats which can be taken more than once and which bonuses stack.

At 10th level Fighter gains all Epic Fighter Feats he meets the prerequisites for. Any feats he doesn't meet prerequisites for he gains the second he meets those prerequisites. All skill requirements for these feats are ignored.

At 11th level and every level after that, he gains one more of all Epic Fighter Feats which can be taken more than once and which bonuses stack.

At 15th level a Fighter gets a bonus equal to his BAB to all craft checks, and can craft any non-magical piece of equipment with no GP-costs and one-tenth of the time required.

---

I'm not 100% positive, but Epic Feats and Epic Skills should allow for enough crazy to push him to tier 2 at least.