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andhaira
2011-10-27, 02:17 PM
Pretty please? I am crap at mechanics, so I though I would ask for your help in this. :smallbiggrin:

SamBurke
2011-10-27, 02:23 PM
Holy Knight? What class is that... I'm pretty decent with Pathfinder, though, and might help you along with the build. EDIT: Sorry, didn't see the Final Fantasy tag. If you could just help us JRPG Noobs with what a Holy Knight looks like, it'd be appreciated.

We'll need more info, though: what do you want to use this class for? How will you get stats? What level? What sort of campaign world is this being built for?

Also, when people see Holy Knight, no matter what, the knee-jerk reaction is Paladin. Pretty decent, dat.

Maryring
2011-10-27, 02:31 PM
Why can't you use the Paladin? They are still in Pathfinder after all.

Seerow
2011-10-27, 02:48 PM
For those who haven't played FFT: Holy Knight is a class that while thematically similar to the Paladin has almost nothing in common mechanically. It's basically "I get to use magic sword skills"



In FFT Holy Knight has the following skills:

Stasis Sword/Judgement Blade: Range 2 Burst 1, may inflict stop
Split Punch/Cleansing Strike: Range 3, may inflict death sentence
Crush Punch/Northswain's Strike: Range 3, may inflict instant death
Lightning Stab/Hallowed Bolt: Range 3, burst 2, may inflict silence
Holy Explosion/Divine Ruination: Line 5, may cause confusion


All are based on weapon damage, with a modifier added in to increase the damage.


Personally, I'd be inclined to make it a prestige class based on Crusader, with each of those as a unique maneuver that it gains instead of the normal maneuver known, the conversion of those abilities into maneuvers should be relatively straightforward. It'd be a pretty solid 5 level prestige class. (If you go for Holy Swordsman instead you could make it a 10 level class by adding in the other skills, though the ranged sunder abilities from Holy Swordsman are a terrible waste in D&D since nobody wants to destroy loot).

I don't have time to do a full write up at the moment, but if nobody's done it by tonight I'll take a stab at it.

T.G. Oskar
2011-10-27, 03:30 PM
Personally, I'd be inclined to make it a prestige class based on Crusader, with each of those as a unique maneuver that it gains instead of the normal maneuver known, the conversion of those abilities into maneuvers should be relatively straightforward. It'd be a pretty solid 5 level prestige class.

My thoughts exactly, as there is a precedent within the Bloodstorm Blade and Deepstone Sentinel PrCs. Basically, all "Holy Sword" skills are variants of Devoted Spirit, each representing another discipline: for example, you could claim Crush Punch/Northswain's Strike has traits of Devoted Spirit and Shadow Hand (the technique is an instant death attack, mind you), while Lightning Stab/Hallowed Bolt has traits of Devoted Spirit and Iron Heart (becuase Iron Heart has a relationship with lightning, if the fluff from Kamate means something). It's not necessary to go with that, but I'd suggest a few things:

First, remove all connections to Holy, or make the class Good-exclusive. Holy Knights in Final Fantasy Tactics oddly enough tend to be less than virtuous (Agrias being the sole exception, embodying the traits of a Paladin to heart). The reasons why might serve as spoilers, so I'll do the proper:
The great examples are Wiegraf, Delita and the Temple/Templar Knights. Agrias follows the traits of a Paladin because she fights to uncover the truth behind everything but remains steadfastly loyal to Princess Ovelia in the end. Wiegraf is a devotee of the Church of Glabados, but while starting somewhat noble (trying to seek just payment for his services in war), he goes down the path towards his eventual conversion into one of the Lucavi. Delita, however, is Lawful Evil to the core (even if he began Neutral at best). How he frames people to advance in power, plus his idea of gaining the throne at all costs defines him as Lawful Evil, even going as far as being the hero of the story in the official records while leaving Ramza as a heretic and an outcast, while Ramza was the real hero as he discovered the truth about Glabados. Note that both were Holy Knights not because they were good, but because they were devout to the church (much like Elmdor(e) was an Ark Knight)

Second, I'd recommend going a step further and adding stuff from the Paladin class of Final Fantasy Tactics Advance. A class based only on progressing maneuvers and 5 techniques won't be enough, and the FFTA Paladin class complements real well. Particularly, the Cover technique could be with a counter maneuver version of Shield Other, Nurse could be treated as a stance modifier for Martial Spirit (and Aura of Triumph, if taken as well), while Saint Cross can be added as a 6th maneuver and Holy Blade makes for a fitting capstone (all weapons take the Holy property; if going with separating abilities from alignment, allowing your weapons to adopt one of the alignment-based special qualities based on your own alignment works fine). Subdue is basically a mini-ability to make attacks non-lethal if possible, Parley can be a super-powered version of Diplomacy (or Intimidate; the best to fit the key skill of Devoted Spirit) and the rest can be translated easily. It's just that a class with 5 "extra" maneuvers and a limited progression of abilities seems somewhat empty, so I'd consider adding more meat than just damage with rider effects (though the maneuvers would be pretty nice).

Seerow
2011-10-27, 10:05 PM
Okay, here's my take on a Holy Knight Prestige class. I used the PSP ability names, even though I only played the PS1 version, because honestly the PSP names sound better/more flavorful. Also took a few of the suggestions from TG Oskar above from the FFTA Paladin and incorporated into class features, though I stuck with only 5 maneuvers.


Holy Knight
Prerequisites:
BAB: +6
Maneuvers: At least 2 Devoted Spirit Maneuvers, initiator level 6.


HD: d12
{table=head]Level|Base AttackBonus|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|Maneuvers Readied|Maneuvers Known|Stances Known

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+2| Holy Knight Maneuvers, Armored Mobility | 0 | 1 | 0

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+3| Ability Focus (Devoted Spirit) +1, Subdue | 1 | 1 | 0

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+3| Cover | 0 | 1 | 0

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+4| Ability Focus (Devoted Spirit) +2, Nurse | 1 | 1 | 1

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+4| Holy Weapon | 0(+1) | 1 | 0[/table]

Class Skills (4+Int): Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Martial Lore), Knowledge (Religion), Listen, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, and Swim.

Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Holy Knight gains no additional weapon and armor proficiencies.

Maneuvers Readied/Known: The Holy Knight gains maneuvers readied and known at each level indicated on the table above. These maneuvers are recovered using the recovery method the character had prior to entering Holy Knight. If the character does not have a recovery method prior to entering, he recovers maneuver as if he was a Crusader, and has 2 maneuvers granted. If the character has granted maneuvers, he gains +1 granted maneuvers at level 5.

Holy Knight Maneuvers: The Holy Knight gains access to 5 new Devoted Spirit Maneuvers, described below. The maneuver known gained at your first level of Holy Knight must be a Holy Knight maneuver, but after that, any maneuver may be taken when gaining a level in this class.


Judgement Blade
Devoted Spirit 4
Prerequisite: 2 Devoted Spirit Maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 Standard Action
Range: 30ft
Target: All creatures within a 10ft area
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will Partial (See Text)

You call upon your Gods to Judge your enemies, dealing damage as if you successfully hit with a melee attack, plus 4d6 additional damage, and is dazed for 1 round. A successful Will Save negates the Daze effect, and negates the 4d6 bonus damage

Cleansing Strike
Devoted Spirit 4
Range: 45ft
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Special (See Text)

Your attack hits the target, dealing damage as if you successfully hit with a melee attack. The target must make a Will Saving Throw, if that save is failed, on your following turn you may spend a swift action to cause the target to make a Fortitude Save or die. A successful save lets the target live, but he still suffers 6d6+Strength Mod damage.

Hallowed Bolt
Devoted Spirit 5
Range: 45ft
Target: 10ft area
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will partial

You call down a bolt of divine energy, inflicting positive(or negative, depending on alignment) energy damage in an amount equal to if you hit with a successful melee attack plus 5d6 damage, and silencing all enemies within the area for 1 minute. A successful Will Save negates the silence effect and the bonus damage.

Divine Ruination
Devoted Spirit 6
Range: 50ft Line
Target: All Creatures in Range
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will partial

You send out an explosion of divine energy originating from you, affecting all creatures within a 50ft line. All creatures affected by this maneuver take positive(or negative, depending on alignment) energy damage as though affected by a melee attack, plus 10d6 damage, and confuses the target. A successful Will Saving throw negates the confusion and the bonus damage.

Cleansing Strike
Devoted Spirit 7
Range: 45ft
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fort partial

The target of this maneuver must have an alignment at least one step removed from your own or they are unaffected. The target of this maneuver dies instantly. A successful fortitude saving throw allows the target to live, but they still take damage as if the initiator hit with a successful melee attack.


Armored Mobility: The Holy Knight gains 5 ft increased movement speed, and no longer takes movement speed penalties from wearing Heavy Armor.

Ability Focus: At 2nd level the Holy Knight gains a +1 bonus to save DCs for any Devoted Spirit Maneuver that grants a saving throw. This bonus increases to +2 at level 4.

Subdue: A 2nd level Holy Knight may opt to deal non-lethal damage with any damaging action he takes without taking a penalty.

Cover: A 3rd level Holy Knight may spend a swift action to use Cover, providing protection to all allies within reach. This grants allies cover, and any damage they take is split with the Holy Knight.

Nurse: A 4th level Holy Knight who heals himself or an ally may choose to either increase that healing effect by his initiator level, or remove one status effect of his choosing from the target.

Holy Weapon: A 5th level Holy Knight treats any weapon he holds as if it had the Holy Property. If the Holy Knight is evil, this is instead Unholy, and if he is neutral he may choose which property he wants.

andhaira
2011-10-28, 04:11 AM
Hey all, thanks for the replies.

I would like to clarify that I am only looking for a base class, not a PRC. Furthermore, I would not want to involve Tome of Battle, as no Pathfinder games I know are allowing Tome of Battle.

I don't really care either way about involving the Paladin from Tactics advance, though if I had to choose I would prefer not to take material from that class. I just want this to be about the Holy Knight, just like Agrias was, nothing more nothing less.

Another thing, tying Holy Sword damage to weapon damage might work in the video game, but it doesn't work in D20. That's because weapon damage goes up by a termendous amount over the course of the video game, while weapon damage in d20 tends to remain the same throughout the game.

I was think something like Judgement Blade would do 1d6 pts of damage/level, max 10D6 at level 10 AND inflict paralysis for a number of rounds equal to charisma modifier. Or something like that.

Seerow
2011-10-28, 10:17 AM
There is nowhere near enough material for Holy Knight to make a full 20 level base class. Hell there wasn't enough material for a 5 level Prestige class.

T.G. Oskar
2011-10-28, 10:55 AM
Hey all, thanks for the replies.

I would like to clarify that I am only looking for a base class, not a PRC. Furthermore, I would not want to involve Tome of Battle, as no Pathfinder games I know are allowing Tome of Battle.

I don't really care either way about involving the Paladin from Tactics advance, though if I had to choose I would prefer not to take material from that class. I just want this to be about the Holy Knight, just like Agrias was, nothing more nothing less.

That's even simpler. You're not looking at a base class: a class based only on five abilities cannot really work as a base class, no matter how good those may be. At best, you're looking at an archetype, where it's best to ask what are you willing to sacrifice.

The idea of making a PrC came from the concept that the idea of a PrC can't really work for 20 levels unless you add it something. Remember that neither D&D nor Pathfinder have the multiclassing method of Final Fantasy, where you have a main/sub division in which the main class defines your traits while your subclass defines other skills you may have. Main/sub multiclassing can't be achieved in a d20-based system unless you use a PrC or Gestalt two classes to fit that. Not to mention the skills Agrias brings while as an NPC (and which she keeps, if you're playing the War of the Lions version); recall she has quite a lot of levels in Knight and White Mage, which would suggest a White Mage sub-class and the necessary requirements for a PrC.

However, in the case of FF Tactics, you'll see the Squire class on many of these NPCs essentially turned into Squire "archetypes". Thus, you'll have a better time figuring out which class you want to play, and which abilities you intend to replace. IMO, you could pull it off with either Fighter or Paladin, but you'd need to replace basically ALL your bonus feats as a Fighter as an appropriate replacement. I could easily visualize the Paladin as a great source for the Holy Knight archetype (the smite OR the spells could be replaced easily with the "techniques", whereas with the Fighter you'd need a supernatural source of power to justify).

Thus, with that set, the question would be what to replace. The Smites and the Aura of Justice could be replaced by encounter uses of the techniques, with every few levels having the Paladin gain a new technique and more uses out of it. Alternatively, if you want it to resemble a bit more the Holy Knight, you could replace the spellcasting for the techniques, as most people tend to do when homebrewing Paladins (they replace spellcasting with maneuvers). The damage could be worked out in a way like 4E damage: each technique deals damage based on Charisma, but each technique provides a multiplier to your weapon damage (thus, the base damage for all techniques could be equal to 5+class level, with Judgment Blade dealing 1x weapon damage, while, say, Cleansing Strike deals 2x weapon damage). Since you have a rider effect, you don't need to deal that much damage after all. That way, you can work with the abilities without the hassle of making an entirely new class, and having to work out several other abilities to fill the class up.

andhaira
2011-10-28, 11:42 AM
The empty levels can be filled by giving the class white magic spells like Heal and cure, and their higher versions. Other levels can have the class gain bonus feats. Or you could give her Paladin abilities from advance, like Cover.

You make an interesting point about damage. Yeah the 4e method could be used, but then again it wont scale that much and will remain mostly constant throughout the class. So if I give her say 3[W] Damage for Juedgement Blade, she will have this at level 20 as well, whereas in the video game the damage Agrias does near games end is huge compared to what she does in the beginning.

What do you think of my idea, of say 1d6/level with a max of 10d6 at level 10? Or say, 1d6/2 levels?

T.G. Oskar
2011-10-28, 12:45 PM
The empty levels can be filled by giving the class white magic spells like Heal and cure, and their higher versions. Other levels can have the class gain bonus feats. Or you could give her Paladin abilities from advance, like Cover.

Think about the following: what would you need for the Holy Knight to be distinctive from the Paladin? If the class is comprised of spellcasting, bonus feats and some minor abilities, you're describing a Fighter/Cleric prestige class that sacrifices some abilities for special combat techniques. Alternatively, you're describing a Paladin with an applied archetype ability (replacing Smites with the Holy Sword techniques).

When defining the boundaries of a class (to go a bit technical), you have to answer whether it works as a "class", not as a "build". You also have to answer whether the abilities the class provides can't be replicated by a build of its own.

Applying this, here's the result: the Holy Knight as a class, with the ideas you provide, can be easily gained through a Fighter/Cleric multiclass build, EXCEPT the techniques themselves. Spellcasting is gotten via Cleric, Fighter nets you the bonus feats and Weapon/Armor Training, and Cover is gained via Shield Other. What's left is the techniques themselves, which can be gained via an archetype or as part of a Fighter/Cleric PrC. A much easier way to handle this, except for the bonus feats, is by making an archetype fitting to the Paladin that replaces its smite abilities for the techniques; it still gets all you want and more (because you get full BAB and superb defenses, not to mention all the auras except Justice) while you lose the smite.

In another way: if the class you intend to do can't replicate several things you could get via a single class or a multiclass build, then it's better to consider it's not fitting for a class. The only thing different from a Paladin on the Holy Knight are the techniques, and you can work those better as an archetype rather than creating a new class. To make it easier to understand: for a Holy Knight to exist on its own, it must have a fluff distinctive to the class that the Paladin can't replicate, and the abilities they get must be different from what a Paladin would usually get. To make this last point easier, the Inquisitor and the Paladin are two distinct classes in what they get, and the fluff is different, so the Inquisitor can exist as a class on its own. The Holy Knight must have the same degree of differences from the Paladin (or a Fighter 10/Cleric 10) build to exist as a class on its own. Otherwise, it's better to reconsider.

The main reason I mention this is because, sometimes, you have to concede a few things in the name of simplicity and elegance. The Holy Sword techniques turned into an archetype for the Paladin is the simplest and most elegant way to handle it, for you gain a plethora of existing abilities yet retain the flavor you seek and specifically get that which you want.


You make an interesting point about damage. Yeah the 4e method could be used, but then again it wont scale that much and will remain mostly constant throughout the class. So if I give her say 3[W] Damage for Juedgement Blade, she will have this at level 20 as well, whereas in the video game the damage Agrias does near games end is huge compared to what she does in the beginning.

To make things easier: let's assume that Judgment Blade deals 5+class level extra damage, aside from [W]. With a longsword, at level 20, that's 1d8+25 points of damage, averaging to 29-30, maximum 33. Compared to your suggestion, which is basically 1d6/1 or 2 levels and maximum 10d6, that's an average damage of 35 (average for a 1d6 is 3.5, times 10) and a maximum of 70. While the maximum damage is certainly higher, the average damage of both is relatively similar, and you're adding a rider effect to both effects. The damage would be superior, but in the end, the average will be only slightly larger.

Compare, however, to the actual in-game mechanics. Judgment Blade deals PA (WP + PWR) points of damage, where PA equals your Physical Attack, WP equals your weapon power, and PWR equals the power of the ability. The extra damage you see at the very end depends on Agrias' physical strength and the weapon she wields. The closest way to resemble that degree of damage in a d20 system would be STR ([W] + modifier), where STR would be your Strength modifier, [W] would be the damage dealt by the weapon, and the modifier would come from the technique itself. None of the suggested abilities even resembles that, since it asks for Strength to be a damage multiplier, whereas in a d20 system the opposite is true (Strength modifiers are multiplied). Creating a new mechanic JUST for that would be inelegant. Thus, you have to play with the mechanics.

That doesn't mean the inverse is true. 10d6 looks impressively easy, but in the end, the damage variance is so extreme, it doesn't fit. [W] plus a fixed damage ratio is much closer, and resembles that of the original Smite; since you don't want to stray too far from the ability you expect to replace (and Pathfinder was built in a way to stray away from insanely high damage multipliers), the most elegant solution would be to simulate smite damage, with the rider effect from the technique (paralysis, blindness, etc.) compensating the loss of the smite technique.

However, you want the other abilities to be stronger. In FFT, Judgment Blade and Northswain's Strike deal the same exact damage (their PWR modifiers are 2), Cleansing Strike is a bit stronger (PWR 3), Hallowed Bolt is one step stronger (PWR 4) and Divine Ruination is the strongest (PWR 5). The variance can be represented in two ways: increase the static damage (Judgment Blade and Northswain's Strike deal 5+level, Cleansing Strike deals 10+level, Hallowed Bolt deals 15+level and Divine Ruination deals 20+level), or increase the weapon damage multiplier as per 4e (thus, Judgment Blade and Northswain's Strike deal normal weapon damage, Cleansing Strike deals double weapon damage, Hallowed Bolt deals triple weapon damage and Divine Ruination deals quadruple weapon damage). Vital Strike serves as a mechanical precedent to such a trait (in simpler terms: you can already multiply weapon damage), so either way becomes more elegant.

Compare to your suggestion. With the first idea (1d6/level, capped at 10d6), you deal just as much damage as a Fireball, at half the area of effect (10 ft. opposed to 20 ft.), but the damage is not reduced by Reflex (as Fireball does) and the saving throw is to see if the creature gets dazed. As it stands, Judgment Blade is better than a 3rd level spell. Northswain's Strike would deal the same damage, but its effect would be far better (if only on one creature); by comparison, Disintegrate deals much more damage but it can be reduced (or negated; see Mettle in D&D or its Pathfinder equivalent if it exists), while Finger of Death deals less damage. Thus, you compete with a 6th level spell and obliterate a 7th level spell. Cleansing Strike already defeats Quivering Palm. To continue the line of thought, Hallowed Bolt should deal 15d6 points of damage and Divine Ruination 20d6, which put them into the realm of around 7th level and 8th level spells respectively, with a large area and rider effects. While the simplest solution around, it might have troubles fitting with the Pathfinder paradigm, especially for melee characters. Compared to smite, though, they are pretty weak (a Paladin at 20th level can reliably do 40-160 points of damage per turn with a full attack, and that's just based on raw damage alone), whereas those techniques with fixed damage might just work well (less overall damage, but a chance for criticals). However, the first idea parallels closer the expected damage of the techniques than the second, making it more elegant. The tidbit from 4E is only to make it a tad stronger (Divine Ruination dealing [3w] or [4w] plus 20+level damage makes for a surprisingly strong attack). Just to make the point: with the suggested damage, the average damage with a longsword would be 58, and the maximum would be 72, whereas with the other progression it would be 70 damage on average, and 120 maximum. The former, though, doesn't account for criticals (twice all overall damage) and could probably add other modifiers (Charisma to damage, perhaps weapon enhancement bonus to damage) which start to add up.

While the proposed damage ratio isn't really a bad idea (though it makes many spells suffer), you'll end up at times dealing very low damage you can't modify by any means, which makes it a rather poor replacement for the smite (what makes most sense to replace, whether as a class ability or a Paladin archetype). Remember a smite adds weapon damage several times, can be multiplied on a critical, already deals extra damage on certain enemies, and has a multitude of other benefits (charisma to attack rolls and AC, DR bypass, etc.) that you also need to consider, and the exchange should be equivalent to an extent.

andhaira
2011-10-28, 01:38 PM
Very informative post! Thanks buddy, that gives me something to chew on.

A couple of things:

-I plan on writing the fluff of the class myself. It will be unique, and will take into account the fact that Holy Knights do not loose their powers if they go against the tenets of their faith, or their alignment. This makes them VASTLY different to paladins, enough in itself IMO to warrant a seperate class.

-I really have my heart set on a core base class. I don't want it similar to the Paladin at all. And I really don't want the aura's. Agrias was a bodyguard basically, after all, not a crusader. She never boosted allies in battle in anyway, and she never had a mount. There is nothing in FF Tactics to suggest that Holy Knights are great leaders. Delita did end up becoming a leader, true, but that was only due to his political manipulation as well as his manipulation of an impressionable young princess which led to him marrying her and thus gaining the throne.

Therefore, the Holy Knight would be best represented by a new base class.

Regarding the Holy Sword abilities, thanks so much for listing the damage the paladin can do with Smites. It makes me glad to know that my suggestion was not overpowered, and if a class implements my ideas I stand a good chance of getting accepted into a game.

Could you please go into a little more detail of the kind of damage the Holy Knight could be doing if we took your suggestion and went with 4e style damage? Right now I favor my own idea regarding damage, but I am intruiged by what you say and am willing to listen more. Somethings to note:

-The Holy Knight needs her sword to use her Holy Sword attacks. The paladin doesn't need his sword to smite. So, this kind of makes smites a bit more powerful, giving us some room to be more creative with the HK's attacks.

-The Paladin does 120 pts per attack with smite, and can crit with it. The Holy Knight's top attack, Divine Ruination OTOH affects multiple foes. So I say both are about even. What say we remove the ability to crit with Holy Sword attacks, since you couldn't crit with them in the game, and in return make them more powerful?

-Other abilities I am thinking of are as follows:

Cover: Shield other basically. Maybe also gives a boost to the HK's initiative to allow her to act before an ally is attacked.

White Magic: Spells cure and protect. Eventually, she may even get Holy. Mechanically, these spells work differently to the 'cure light wounds' series of spells, to make them stand out more. So no dedicated spellcasting, but only these three spells.

Fighting Style: Sword and shield, 2H sword, or two weapon fighting. She gets bonus feats related to each style every few levels.

Lastly, I was thinking of adding in a Holy Sword, basically a weapon granted to her by the church that grows more powerful as she levels. It would remove the need for the GM to give me a new weapon every couple of levels, and it would be cool and kinda fitting to a character that depends on her sword so much.

Btw, any chance you could build the entire class for me assuming I do all the fluff?

Regards! :)








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T.G. Oskar
2011-10-28, 03:13 PM
Very informative post! Thanks buddy, that gives me something to chew on.

A couple of things:

-I plan on writing the fluff of the class myself. It will be unique, and will take into account the fact that Holy Knights do not loose their powers if they go against the tenets of their faith, or their alignment. This makes them VASTLY different to paladins, enough in itself IMO to warrant a seperate class.

That can be part of an archetype. The specific order to which a Holy Knight belongs softens some of the order's tenets, or do away with them altogether.


-I really have my heart set on a core base class. I don't want it similar to the Paladin at all. And I really don't want the aura's. Agrias was a bodyguard basically, after all, not a crusader. She never boosted allies in battle in anyway, and she never had a mount. There is nothing in FF Tactics to suggest that Holy Knights are great leaders. Delita did end up becoming a leader, true, but that was only due to his political manipulation as well as his manipulation of an impressionable young princess which led to him marrying her and thus gaining the throne.

Therefore, the Holy Knight would be best represented by a new base class.

While you can make some distinctive fluff, the following statements speak otherwise:


-Other abilities I am thinking of are as follows:

Cover: Shield other basically. Maybe also gives a boost to the HK's initiative to allow her to act before an ally is attacked.

White Magic: Spells cure and protect. Eventually, she may even get Holy. Mechanically, these spells work differently to the 'cure light wounds' series of spells, to make them stand out more. So no dedicated spellcasting, but only these three spells.

Fighting Style: Sword and shield, 2H sword, or two weapon fighting. She gets bonus feats related to each style every few levels.

Lastly, I was thinking of adding in a Holy Sword, basically a weapon granted to her by the church that grows more powerful as she levels. It would remove the need for the GM to give me a new weapon every couple of levels, and it would be cool and kinda fitting to a character that depends on her sword so much.

The first ability can be defined as a Shield Other SLA, or that you took the time to prepare Shield Other on your spell slots. The Paladin can do this with little problem, and so does the Cleric, so that's one less point towards Holy Knight existing as a class (one of the suggested class features can be replaced by the class feature of another).

The second ability you suggest can be worked well by reworking the Paladin spell list to provide healing and protection spells, some of which the Paladin lacks, but removing some spells the Paladin gets. As an archetype, you can easily do this, so that's another minus.

The third ability might differ somewhat, but you might wing it within an archetype. This one I may concede, because you're actually providing the abilities a Ranger gets; literally, you're adding Combat Styles as a Paladin. That can be an archetype on its own, just in case.

The fourth ability needs no archetype: that's Divine Bond. The sword they get progresses with levels, and stack with the actual abilities the sword may already have, which is yet another bonus. Even if the effect is timed (a few times per day, with a duration of minutes), it's exactly what you speak of.

Remember that Pathfinder archetypes can cover a lot more than, say, alternate class features could cover in D&D. They are more akin to the variant classes in Unearthed Arcana; you can make quite a lot of replacements and give it a new name, but it'll always get compared to the Paladin, and thus it is best to use the Paladin as a basis.

As an example, consider the Shining Knight (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/shining-knight) Paladin archetype. It replaces divine health, divine bond and aura of justice for three new abilities that reinforce mounted combat.

The reason I insist on this is because it's basic Pathfinder philosophy. Despite how much you may want to make it a base class literally called "Holy Knight", what you suggest really fits best an archetype, since while it may have a different fluff than the Paladin, it actually has a basis on it. There's a reason why I suggested a Fighter as another form of providing that archetype, as there are precedents of a class gaining the traits of another. In fact, you can have the techniques, spell-like abilities and combat styles easily replace the bonus feats and Weapon/Armor Mastery on the Fighter, and that would essentially be a new class, but you'd be using the Fighter as a focus. I don't play Pathfinder and I don't expect to play it in the foreseeable future, but what I'm mentioning is Pathfinder design principles: if the class can't exist on its own mechanically and fluff-wise, but exists better as an archetype or a prestige class, make it so. Making a whole class with some cherry-picked abilities will make the intention of playing a Holy Knight less viable for some DMs, especially those that use PF material, as they may be a bit less reticent towards homebrewing.

I wanna share a bit of personal philosophy with you. If a class is really a build in disguise, it's a bad class. What I can interpret from your post is that you want a build which can be played with a single class. You're extremely tied to the fluff from FFT, and you seem to want the build to exactly follow Agrias. That's a bad idea, and the greatest examples of this are the 3.5 Monk and the Complete Warrior Samurai: both are on their respective tiers because they are essentially builds turned classes, which is poor design philosophy. While it may be conflicting, sometimes it is better to compromise and work towards a simpler, more elegant solution. If you want a class tailor-built for a build you intend to use, then it's a bad idea and most DMs will refuse to use it, no matter how much you insist. Perhaps one MIGHT agree with the idea, but will gently nudge you towards a simpler and more elegant solution.

Another thing I notice is that you're probably playing the wrong game. See if you can find d20 conversions of Final Fantasy: as you might have noticed, you want Cure spells that are different from d20/PF's Cure Wounds spells, and the notice of Protect is something that would alarm any DM (the only spells that provide the same degree of protection that Protect does are Starmantle and the anti-pain spells from Book of Exalted Deeds, and they're considered some of the best protection spells if not broken altogether). You're already trying to compromise playing FF by playing a d20 game, so it's probably better if you make a few more compromises in lieu of making the experience easier for a DM. The ideas Seerow and I offer are reasonable compromises working with the material we got: believe me when I say that attempting to make a full class from little material won't work.

Let's go a bit further. Agrias has no mount (but CAN ride a Chocobo, just like every other humanoid in the game), and is more of a follower than a leader (a Paladin can be a leader and a follower, and the auras don't necessarily make him a leader of men), but she doesn't have Perception skills, so-so Diplomatic skills (see her deal with Cardinal Draclau/Delacroix, and if you go that way, you can say she has no ranks in Sense Motive either), so to tailor the skill list to Agrias' needs, you'd have an extremely small skill list. Most of the skills I mentioned are in the Paladin skill list, and her skill choices can be explained by having only limited ranks in other skills, and maybe a few cross-class ones, which is a build trait rather than a class trait. Her preference for swords is mechanically forced, but limiting a class to a specific weapon is a hallmark of a build-disguised-as-class (notice what happens to the CW Samurai, which shoehorns you into katana and wakizashi even though samurai were master mounted bowmen). The choice of spells can be explained as part of a build. That is not enough to make a class on its own, and a big deal of what I want to say is that going that way is both inelegant and detrimental for your enjoyment of the game. Not all enemies will remain on the ground, and not all enemies might be at a right distance for sword skills, so you might get in problems because of that. Making an entire class out of that will eventually make you drop off the class, seek a PrC, or something that will null your enjoyment of the game. Trust me when I say that the Paladin could make for a fantastic Holy Knight, and you can cover what the Paladin lacks with an archetype, which works right into Pathfinder design philosophy AND can be tailor-made to your needs.


Regarding the Holy Sword abilities, thanks so much for listing the damage the paladin can do with Smites. It makes me glad to know that my suggestion was not overpowered, and if a class implements my ideas I stand a good chance of getting accepted into a game.

Could you please go into a little more detail of the kind of damage the Holy Knight could be doing if we took your suggestion and went with 4e style damage? Right now I favor my own idea regarding damage, but I am intruiged by what you say and am willing to listen more. Somethings to note:

-The Holy Knight needs her sword to use her Holy Sword attacks. The paladin doesn't need his sword to smite. So, this kind of makes smites a bit more powerful, giving us some room to be more creative with the HK's attacks.

-The Paladin does 120 pts per attack with smite, and can crit with it. The Holy Knight's top attack, Divine Ruination OTOH affects multiple foes. So I say both are about even. What say we remove the ability to crit with Holy Sword attacks, since you couldn't crit with them in the game, and in return make them more powerful?

Think about the Warlock's Eldritch Blast. They deal 9d6-10d6 points of damage by level 20, which may seem overpowered but not really that much. It's really on the other side; it's far too weak.

The Holy Sword damage potential and traits are different, however. Even as a class on its own, the best way to balance the ability itself is to relate it to a similar ability and then work around it. Spells are out of the question because they cover many fronts, so it's better to work with the smite evil ability which is different in Pathfinder but the closest thing around (unless there's something else in another class that fits better). The Holy Sword skills would need to be converted quite a bit, in order to fit PF mechanics. However, let's assume a few things with Holy Sword techniques:

They're at-will abilities, because in FFT they can be used at every time.
One square in FFT equals 5 ft. on d20.
Holy Sword techniques require a ranged touch attack, probably based on Charisma instead of Strength or Dexterity (otherwise they'd be too broken).
We'll use your suggestions for damage in order to make things work.

Now, let's do a comparison by adding the pros and cons of Holy Sword and making direct comparisons to Smite Evil:

Pros:
Can be used at-will (Smite Evil has uses per day)
Deals a sizable amount of damage (Smite Evil is limited to damage based on Paladin level)
Has rider effects that range from dazed, to silenced, to confused, to outright killed (Smite Evil only allows bypassing DR and Charisma to attack rolls)
Can be done at a distance (Smite Evil depends on the weapon's range, and requires melee weapons)
Affects all creatures (Smite Evil affects only evil creatures)
Has better chances of landing (touch AC is easier to hit than full AC)

Cons:
Usable as Standard Actions (Paladin's smite can be used as a free action once per round, and the effect applies to every attack the Paladin deals, not just one)
Deals very limited damage (Divine Ruination deals 120 points of damage as maximum, with an average of 70; Smite Evil applies the damage on each attack)
Forces you to use a very limited list of weapons (mostly longswords, bastard swords and greatswords; scimitars and falchions would be too different to treat as sword-based weapons much like Ninja Knives and Katana were considered too different for Holy Sword even if you could use weapons. Smite Evil works with ALL melee weapons, including reach weapons if necessary)

Compared to smite, the benefits outweigh the cons, even if with Smite Evil you deal greater damage. There are some stuff that need to be considered, such as whether Holy Sword techniques ignore DR (they are treated as physical attacks, but in terms of d20 they'd be supernatural abilities) and concealment (can't remember if Invisibility allows you to ignore sword skills).

Damage-wise, a single technique may be a bit more powerful than the Smite, because of its rider effect AND because of the average damage. The advantage is minimal, but the Holy Sword ends up dealing more damage. Compare Smite Evil to, say, Cleansing Strike. Cleansing Strike would probably deal 1d8 points of damage every one or two levels, with a top of 10d8 points of damage. That's 45 points of damage on average, 80 points maximum. A Smite Evil may surpass average damage on three hits and equal damage on four hits without adding weapon damage, but remember that the hits can fail. Assuming the target's AC is enough so that a Paladin succeeds on a 5 without adding Charisma, and with a Charisma of, say, 26-28 (which means a +7-+8 bonus), that means the Paladin has a 95% chance of landing its first hit, 90-95% of landing its second hit, 65-70% of landing its third hit (fails on a roll of 7-8 or lower), and 40-45% of landing its fourth. That's roughly an 85.5% to 90.25% of landing two hits, 55.6% to 63.2% of landing three hits, and 22.2% to 28.4% of landing all four. In other words, that means you can usually land one hit infused with smite, quite reliably land two hits, land three hits almost 3/5ths of the time, and land all four hits once every four rounds. A bit complex, of course, but what it means is that you won't always land all four smites.

That means the Paladin will deal, without adding extra damage, somewhere around 20-40 points nearly every round, 60 every 2 rounds, and 80 on all four rounds. With a longsword in hand, the chance of landing at least one critical hit is once per 10 successful attack rolls, one per every five successful attack rolls with Improved Critical or a keen longsword, so you can't rely a lot on dealing mondo damage unless the dice favor you. At 20th level, that means the paladin deals 40-60 points of damage without adding weapon damage: that means around 50 points of damage each turn, except on critical hits. That's 5 points above Cleansing Strike on average, and without adding weapon damage. This may seem as if the Smite were better, but that brings up another thing: the Holy Knight deals this damage as a standard action, within 15-20 feet of distance, and adds the very same effect as Quivering Palm does (make a Fort save or die). If the Paladin were to do the same, he or she would deal only 20 points of damage without adding all other modifiers, which means the Paladin would require an extra amount of damage between weapon damage, Strength modifier and other damage modifiers of 25 in order to deal the damage on average the Holy Knight can churn in one standard action. And the Holy Knight would still be forward with the rider effect.

All that example just amounts to the following: a Paladin could out-damage you, but in very specific moments (against an evil creature and while making a full attack), so most of the time you'll pull ahead. You would deal damage and effects compared to a Warlock, whose damage is usually considered weak even with Blast Shape and Essence invocations (barring a glaivelock), but that weakness is relative when compared to Pathfinder: in d20 that damage is pitiful, in Pathfinder that damage might amount to considerable because melee characters deal less damage on average. Judgment Blade would deal damage to allies in area, Divine Retribution would deal damage to enemies in a very long line, and Hallowed Bolt has both the range, area of effect and status effect to cause serious problems. Note that these techniques are done at-will.

To make it even simpler: the Paladin can outdamage you, but the pros of your damage method outweigh the pros of the Paladin's Smite Evil, allows for damage considerable to a 3.5 class (the Warlock) with effects the Warlock can barely pull off (outside of specializing in Eldritch Blast), and would cause trouble in Pathfinder mechanics. Don't worry that much about the damage alone; the whole package is something to consider.


Btw, any chance you could build the entire class for me assuming I do all the fluff?

Regards! :)

You might be figuring that I won't, because I wouldn't be comfortable with the idea. MAYBE if you were to compromise into a Paladin archetype, you might, but consider I don't do 'brewing for Pathfinder, so maybe someone else might be up to the task.

andhaira
2011-11-01, 11:31 AM
So, anyone else willing to take a shot at this? :)

ZepherDossier
2012-04-27, 06:05 PM
So, anyone else willing to take a shot at this? :)

I would keep it exceedingly simple;

start with the Fighter Class, remove the bonus feats, tone it down to d8 hp instead of 10, but leave all the martial weapon and armour abilities as they were.

Level 4 ability Stasis Sword/Judgement Blade: Range 2 Burst 1, may inflict stop
Level 8 ability Split Punch/Cleansing Strike: Range 3, may inflict death sentence
Level 12 Ability Lightning Stab/Hallowed Bolt: Range 3, burst 2, may inflict silence
Level 16 Ability Holy Explosion/Divine Ruination: Line 5, may cause confusion
Level 20 Crush Punch/Northswain's Strike: Range 3, may inflict instant death
(moved this to level 20 because multiple chances at instant death are kind of a big deal)

For the baseline ability, using it would be a full round action. thus, i propose the holy sword ability would count as one attack that combines all the attacks you would get at your level as one full attack, on each affected enemy in the area, at your highest attack bonus. If it is a concentrated attack on only one enemy, then you could get a damage modifier to the damage roll, say 1/2 your level rounded down.

Area of affect for them should mirror what it is in FFT, the ability hitting living objects ( i can't see these abilities hitting inanimate objects, that would be more like the weapon/armor destroying Meliadoul abilities) in the area. Holy Explosion would affect everything in a 5 foot line for up to 25' in front of the swordsman.
Stasis sword would affect a 15' cross centred on the primary target, affecting enemies who are in any of those 5' squares.
Lightning Stab would affect a 15' square, and a 25' cross, again centred on the primary target.

And Yes, friendly fire could be a bit of a drag here.

Split Punch /Crush Punch affects the target only. Multiple chances at death magic seems a little cheesy.

The real power from this class would come from the status ailments it would be inflicting, and this is the part that would be hardest to balance. I suggest the closest equivalent divine spells and unlike the baseline physical damage from the strikes hitting the target areas, this would be afforded Will saves.

Personally i think this class would balance out better as a prestige class, but if you want it spread out over 20 levels, i believe the first few levels (before you get your first baseline ability) would be harder to survive than a fighter or rogue of equal level. But once you get your ability, you would quickly start to shine.

silphael
2012-04-28, 06:48 AM
If I remember well, PF paladin can smite through ranged weapons: one less pro for the Holy Knight.

Acanous
2012-04-28, 06:50 AM
I'd just go Ruby Knight Vindicator and call it a day.

Just to Browse
2012-04-28, 07:36 AM
I don't play PF, but I can half-sorta do a 3e thing, and if you run the necessary conversions it can go to PF.

Can someone explain to me what death sentence is, and why it's worse than silence or confusion (sounds like a timed SoD, which is an SoD, which is probably better than confusion or silence)?