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View Full Version : This is the Power of Hell! (3.5 Base Class, PEACH?)



NeoSeraphi
2011-10-27, 02:34 PM
http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs31/f/2008/192/e/3/shot_by_Hamsterfly.jpg

Many mortals worship the Lords of the Nine Hells. Those who do generally do it out of desire for power or fortune than belief or faith in the archdevil creeds. As such, most devotees of the Lords of the Nine are paladins or clerics, those who can directly draw power from their evil overlords.

But there are a scant few who do not enjoy prayer or offerings...those who would seek to instead draw power without all that divine worship. The devils are not picky.

The Hell Rager

Requirements: A hell rager must be lawful evil. If he is of an alignment that is not lawful evil, he loses all class features until he atones.

HD: d12

Skills: A hell rager's class skills include Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (The Planes), Listen, Profession, Survival and Swim.

Skill Points: 4+Int per level (x4 at first level)

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|+1|+2|+0|+0|Hell Rage 1/day, Illiteracy, Fast Movement

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+0|Strike of Evil

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+1|The Power of Hell

4th|+4|+4|+1|+1|Hell Rage 2/day

5th|+5|+4|+1|+1|Devil's Chant

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|The Power of Hell

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+2|DR 2/Good or Silver

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+2|Hell Rage 3/day, Carnage Scissors

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+3|The Power of Hell

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|DR 4/Good or Silver

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3|Greater Hell Rage

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|Hell rage 4/day, The Power of Hell

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4|DR 6/Good or Silver

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4|Blessing of the Nine

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5|The Power of Hell

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5|Hell Rage 5/day, DR 8/Good or Silver

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|The Gift of the Devils

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|The Power of Hell

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6|DR 10/Good or Silver

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|Hell Rage 6/day, Mighty Hell Rage

[/table]

Class Features:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The hell rager is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with light and medium armor, and with shields (except tower shields)

Hell Rage (Ex): A hell rager may fly into a state of pure anger once per day, drawing upon the power of the Nine Hells to crush his opponents with ease, as well as to strike fear in the hearts of others.

The hell rager gains a +4 bonus to his Strength and Charisma scores, as well as resistance to fire 10, a +4 bonus to all saves against poison, and a +4 profane bonus to all Intimidate checks, but takes a -2 penalty to AC. Hell rage lasts for 3+the hell rager's newly improved Charisma modifier rounds. The hell rager's skin turns red and he grows a short pair of horns. For the duration of his hell rage, the hell rager projects an aura of evil, equal to a cleric of his level.

This ability is otherwise like the barbarian's rage, with the same penalties and drawbacks.

Hell's Rage counts as Rage for the purposes of qualifying for feats and prestige classes. Any feat or prestige class that changes or involves the Constitution bonus that applies to a barbarian while raging instead changes or involves the hell rager's Charisma bonus.

Fast Movement (Ex): A hell rager gains a +10' bonus to its movement speed. This bonus is lost if the hell rager is wearing heavy armor or carrying a tower shield.

Illiteracy: The hell rager does not gain automatic literacy. He may spend two skill points at any time to learn how to read and write all languages he can speak. If he takes a level in another class, he automatically gains literacy.

Strike of Evil (Su): As a standard action, a hell rager may deliver a devastating strike imbued with evil. If the attack hits, it deals normal weapon damage and the creature must make a Fortitude save (DC 10+1/2 class level+Charisma modifier) or be sickened for one round.

At 7th level or higher, the creature must instead save or be nauseated for one round. If it saves, it is instead sickened for one round.

At 12th level or higher, the creature also must make a Will save or be frightened for one round. If it succeeds its save, it is instead shaken for one round.

At 17th level or higher, the creature must also make a Reflex save or be struck with such a powerful blow that it is unable to move or think while it recovers. The creature become helpless for one round. If it succeeds its saving throw, it is instead knocked prone.

After using this ability, the hell rager must wait 1d4 rounds before using it again.

The Power of Hell (Ex): Instead of consuming his power to destroy his enemies, a hell rager may only partially draw on his power. This ability gives him less strength than when he hell rages, but it also takes much less of a toll on his body. At 3rd level, and every 3 levels after, the hell rager gains a lesser power. Activating one of these powers is a full-round action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. It lasts for one hour or until the hell rager dismisses it, after which the hell rager must wait one hour before using any Power of Hell again.

As a full-round action, starting at level 3, a hell rager may assume the appearance of a devil. He grows small red horns and his skin turns red. This grants him a +4 profane bonus to all Intimidate checks. (This bonus increases to +8 at 11th level, and +12 at 20th level)

At level 6, the hell rager may instead recall his impressive resistance to fire. He gains resist fire 10. (This increases to resist fire 20 at 11th level, and then to fire immunity at 20th level)

At level 9, the hell rager may instead draw upon his natural immunity to poison. He gains a +4 bonus to resist poisons. This increases to +8 at 11th level, and to immunity to all poisons at 20th level.

At level 12, the hell rager may instead call forth his superior devil senses. He may see in all forms of darkness, including magical darkness, out to at least 60 ft. If he already has darkvision, he instead gains See in Deeper Darkness x', where x is his natural darkvision+30'. This is a supernatural quality. At 20th level, this ability improves to grant the hell rager true seeing as well.

At level 15, the hell rager may instead draw upon his improved devil mobility. He grows a pair of wings, and unless his armor has been properly fitted to accomodate them, he must remove his armor and shirt in order to fly. He gains a fly speed equal to his land speed with a maneuverability of good. At 20th level, he gains the benefit of the Flyby Attack feat while he uses this Power of Hell.

At level 18, the hell rager may instead draw upon his Pact with the Nine. He may automatically summon 2 lemures, bone devils, or bearded devils, or 1 erinyes, horned devil, or ice devil. This ability is a spell-like ability equivalent to a level 8 spell. Unlike the other Powers of Hell, a hell rager may only use this power once per day.

Devil's Chant (Sp): The hell rager does not pray to his gods and receive domain spells as a cleric, instead he channels the power of devils directly. Once per day, a hell rager may spend an hour in meditation and select a single devil whose HD is equal to or less than his class level. He gains the spell-like abilities of that creature for the next 24 hours. He may not change these once he selects them, until he gets at least eight hours of sleep and then prepares them again. The hell rager does not gain any summoning abilities, nor does he gain any spell-like abilities that the channeled devil cannot use at least once per day. Regardless of the hell rager's level, he uses the channeled devil's listed caster level.

If the devil that the hell rager channels has the ability to cast a spell-like ability that is 4th level or higher at-will, the hell rager receives 3 daily uses of it instead.

For example, a 5th level hell rager could channel the power of an imp, and for the next 24 hours, or until he prepares them again, he gains detect good, detect magic, and invisibility (self only) at will, and suggestion once per day. He does not gain the imp's commune ability, as that ability can only be used once per week. His caster level in this situation would be 6th level.

Damage Reduction (Ex/Su): At 7th level, a hell rager gains Damage Reduction 2. A hell rager's damage reduction is overcome by good-aligned weapons, or by weapons made of alchemical silver. The DR/Good is a supernatural quality, while the DR/Silver is an extraordinary quality.

Carnage Scissors (Ex): Starting at 8th level, a hell rager may use the momentum from his attacks to attempt to rip his opponent in half. When the hell rager charges and successfully hits his opponent, he receives an additional attack at his highest attack bonus as a free action. The critical threat range for his weapon is doubled and the critical multiplier is increased by 1, for this additional attack only. This ability stacks with other threat increases such as Improved Critical and the keen enhancement or spell.

No matter how many attacks the hell rager gets on a charge, he only triggers this additional attack once, and only from the first successful hit.

Greater Hell Rage (Ex/Su): At 11th level, a hell rager's hell rage improves. He now receives +6 Str and Cha. The penalty to his AC remains at -2. His profane bonus to Intimidate checks increases to +8, and his resistance to fire increases to resist fire 20. His bonus on saves to resist poison increases to +8. Additionally, while the hell rager is hell raging, he gains the ability to see in all kinds of darkness, including magical darkness, such as that created by the deeper darkness spell. The range of this vision is either 60', or the hell rager's natural darkvision +30', whichever is higher. This is a supernatural quality. The hell rager sprouts a pair of batlike wings which gives him a natural fly speed equal to his land speed.

Blessing of the Nine (Su): At 14th level, while a hell rager is hell raging, he gains the protection of the archdevils. As long as he is in hell rage, the hell rager gains spell resistance and power resistance equal to 15+his class level. This spell resistance is specially crafted by his devils to offer him protection only. All conjuration (healing) spells automatically bypass this spell resistance, unless the hell rager is healed by negative energy instead. If the hell rager is healed by negative energy, then the spell resistance does not protect against the inflict spells, nor the spells harm, greater harm, or mass harm.

Spells that would benefit the hell rager, such as restoration or heroism, still must pass the hell rager's spell resistance unless he lowers it.

The Gift of the Devils (Sp): At 17th level, the hell rager gains the special ability to draw pacts and sign over mortal souls to his devil lords. The hell rager may cast the wish spell as a spell-like ability once per day, with a caster level equal to his class level. He may only cast this spell-like ability as part of drawing up a contract, which a mortal has willingly agreed to (without magical or mundane coercion of any kind) and has willingly agreed to sell his soul for the wish.

A hell rager may only grant one wish to one soul. He is also obliged to never directly kill any creature that has signed a contract with him. (Doing so causes him to lose all his class features until he seeks atonement)

Mighty Hell Rage (Ex): A 20th level hell rager is more devil than man now. When the hell rager enters his hell rage, his bonuses to Str and Cha improve to +8. The penalty to AC remains at -2. The hell rager gains immunity to fire and poison, and a +12 profane bonus to Intimidate checks. He gains See in Deeper Darkness, as well as true seeing. He grows a pair of batlike wings that grant him a fly speed equal to his land speed with good maneuverability, as well as the Flyby Attack feat as a bonus feat for the duration of his hell rage. He need not meet the prerequisites.

Additionally, once per hell rage the hell rager may, as a full-round action, automatically summon 2 lemures, bone devils, or bearded devils, or 1 erinyes, ice devil, or horned devil. This is a spell-like ability that is equivalent to an 8th level spell (Caster level equal to his hell rager level). The summoned creature stays for one round per caster level.

Zakaroth
2011-10-27, 03:47 PM
The idea itself reminded me of the awesome PrC's from the BoVD, which is a good thing! However, with that in mind I was wondering, why did you decide to make a full base class out of this idea, instead of a PrC?

As it is, it actually seems more like a standard Barbarian with some alternate class features... A bit dull, at least up until the higher levels, where you do get some fancy stuff (Gift of the Devils and The Power of Nine 15th are nice). The idea to manifest a scaling form of a fiendish template as you rage is certainly cool. Btw, what Tier are you aiming for, I'm guessing high T4, low T3?

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-27, 03:53 PM
The idea itself reminded me of the awesome PrC's from the BoVD, which is a good thing! However, with that in mind I was wondering, why did you decide to make a full base class out of this idea, instead of a PrC?


It actually started as a barbarian ACF, however, halfway through I realized it would be difficult to PEACH without a table, and once I wrote the table and changed it I realized that the only thing I kept about the original barbarian was Uncanny/Improved Uncanny Dodge. So I just decided to make it its own class.



As it is, it actually seems more like a standard Barbarian with some alternate class features... A bit dull, at least up until the higher levels, where you do get some fancy stuff (Gift of the Devils and The Power of Nine 15th are nice). The idea to manifest a scaling form of a fiendish template as you rage is certainly cool. Btw, what Tier are you aiming for, I'm guessing high T4, low T3?

It's dull? Darn, I was hoping to make it mechanically decent but fluff-wise awesome. What would you suggest to liven it up a little bit?

I didn't set out with a specific tier in mind. I suppose I wanted it to be slightly stronger and more versatile than an average barbarian.

Domriso
2011-10-27, 03:55 PM
It's definitely a cool idea. The class abilities do make a pretty useful fighting character, and they are thematically pretty awesome. It seems like this class would wipe the floor with a normal Barbarian, methinks, especially at higher levels.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-27, 03:59 PM
It's definitely a cool idea. The class abilities do make a pretty useful fighting character, and they are thematically pretty awesome. It seems like this class would wipe the floor with a normal Barbarian, methinks, especially at higher levels.

Ah, thank you very much!

Zakaroth
2011-10-27, 05:49 PM
It's dull? Darn, I was hoping to make it mechanically decent but fluff-wise awesome. What would you suggest to liven it up a little bit?

After rereading it, it came out harsher than intended. What I was actually referring to were the lower level mechanics of the class. The Fluff is definitely sweet! Thus my point is, except for the Rage, you only gain some passive abilities up until 11th level. I think it could use some more versatility.
As a suggestion; maybe grant it some special effects that augment his Hell Rage. Allowing him to choose one from a list every two levels or so.

Example's:
Gain the benefit of the the Devil's Tongue spell, as you enter hell rage
Gain the benefit of the the Sadism spell, as you enter hell rage
When you strike a foe while under the effect of hell rage, you may imbue Power Leech as a free action. (Higher level effect)
Maybe throw some hellfire in there somewhere? (hellfire imbued weapons?)

Edit: This class reminded me of this piece of art.
http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs31/f/2008/192/e/3/shot_by_Hamsterfly.jpg

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-27, 09:36 PM
After rereading it, it came out harsher than intended. What I was actually referring to were the lower level mechanics of the class. The Fluff is definitely sweet! Thus my point is, except for the Rage, you only gain some passive abilities up until 11th level. I think it could use some more versatility.
As a suggestion; maybe grant it some special effects that augment his Hell Rage. Allowing him to choose one from a list every two levels or so.

Example's:
Gain the benefit of the the Devil's Tongue spell, as you enter hell rage
Gain the benefit of the the Sadism spell, as you enter hell rage
When you strike a foe while under the effect of hell rage, you may imbue Power Leech as a free action. (Higher level effect)
Maybe throw some hellfire in there somewhere? (hellfire imbued weapons?)

Edit: This class reminded me of this piece of art.
http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs31/f/2008/192/e/3/shot_by_Hamsterfly.jpg

Oh, I'm definitely using that art! But everything you just named was a passive ability. (save the power leech)

Then again, barbarians are a pretty passive class to begin with. In 20 levels they have one active ability. Let me see what I can do about all this.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-27, 10:21 PM
Replaced Uncanny Dodge with Strike of Evil, and Improved Uncanny Dodge with Devil's Chant, which is a powerful, useful, and in my opinion, balanced, ability. Both of them are active abilities that help support the passive powers this class gets.

Domriso
2011-10-27, 11:26 PM
Ooo, I do like the Strike of Evil ability. I support this change.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-28, 12:33 AM
Ooo, I do like the Strike of Evil ability. I support this change.

Why thank you! I really like the flow of this whole class...it scales really well in my opinion. The abilities that you had at 1st level are still useful at 12th level.

Knight9910
2011-10-28, 12:36 AM
Not sure about Strike of Evil...that's a lot of save-or-dies for one single ability. o_o

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-28, 12:45 AM
Not sure about Strike of Evil...that's a lot of save-or-dies for one single ability. o_o

I based it on the third level spell called great thunderclap (Spell Compendium), except that wizards get to throw all three save-or-loses around at 5th level instead of 17th. So I improved the abilities (sort of). I changed the Fort save to sicken/nauseate instead of deafen, the Will save from stun to frighten/shaken (which is a big nerf) and the Reflex save from fall prone to helpless/fall prone.

Keep in mind that not only does this ability come online twelve levels after great thunderclap, but it's a single-target ability that requires an attack roll, must deal damage (as in, the hell rager's damage cannot be completely prevented by DR, or else the rider effects all fail), and has a saving throw.

Meanwhile, great thunderclap has a range of Medium (100 ft +10/level), affects all creatures in a 20 ft spread, requires no attack roll and offers no spell resistance.

So that's my justification for writing it this way. Do you still think it's unfair?

Zakaroth
2011-10-28, 04:28 AM
Oh, I'm definitely using that art! But everything you just named was a passive ability. (save the power leech)

Then again, barbarians are a pretty passive class to begin with. In 20 levels they have one active ability. Let me see what I can do about all this.

Well Devil's Tongue isn't really passive, it allows you to make trip or disarm attempts up to 15 ft. Anyway, those were just some quick suggestion, and Strike of Evil and Devil's Chant are much cooler abilities. Now I'm actually starting to want to play this class. Nice job!

Thought, it could use one more activated ability at, I would say, 8th level. When designing a class I think its important to give players the "I can't wait to get to level X, where I can use ability Y"-feel (which you nailed with Strike of Evil and Devil's Chant). However, to achieve this, there shouldn't be to many levels in between such abilities. Level 6 to 10, miss that a bit.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-28, 10:18 AM
Thought, it could use one more activated ability at, I would say, 8th level. When designing a class I think its important to give players the "I can't wait to get to level X, where I can use ability Y"-feel (which you nailed with Strike of Evil and Devil's Chant). However, to achieve this, there shouldn't be to many levels in between such abilities. Level 6 to 10, miss that a bit.

To be fair, there are plenty of different devils with new and exciting spell-like abilities that you gain access to between 6th and 10th level. But I just added a new ability at level 8 like you requested. What do you think?

Curious
2011-10-28, 10:38 AM
The only real problem I have with this class is the fact that it is a base class at all. It looks a bit flavor-specific, and it seems to me it would be better suited as a 10 to 15 level prestige class for Barbarians. Otherwise, looks quite nice.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-28, 01:07 PM
The only real problem I have with this class is the fact that it is a base class at all. It looks a bit flavor-specific, and it seems to me it would be better suited as a 10 to 15 level prestige class for Barbarians. Otherwise, looks quite nice.

Barbarians can't be Lawful Evil.

Zakaroth
2011-10-28, 01:08 PM
To be fair, there are plenty of different devils with new and exciting spell-like abilities that you gain access to between 6th and 10th level. But I just added a new ability at level 8 like you requested. What do you think?

Doh! You are right, forgot to take that into account. Carnage Scissors is nice ability though, might as well keep it. :P Anyway, its a solid class now; awesome fluff and mechanics.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-28, 01:10 PM
Doh! You are right, forgot to take that into account. Carnage Scissors is nice ability though, might as well keep it. :P Anyway, its a solid class now; awesome fluff and mechanics.

Thank you very much! The next time I play an evil game, I plan to ask my DM for permission to use this class! Maybe I'll play a gnome, just for the sheer insanity of it.

Curious
2011-10-28, 02:15 PM
Barbarians can't be Lawful Evil.

Eh, allow them to be NE, or just drop the alignment restriction on Barbs.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-28, 02:26 PM
Eh, allow them to be NE, or just drop the alignment restriction on Barbs.

I think I'm happy with the class as is. Specific flavor for a class may be a little different, but it's not really that different than a paladin, he just has a specific pantheon that he worships.

Iceforge
2011-10-28, 02:41 PM
Looks interesting.

Got a slight issue with Strike of Evil at level 17.

Basicly, it is a knocked prone, no save, doesn't matter what target, useable once every 1D4 rounds, meaning if lucky, you can do it again next round.

While mediocore while fighting lots of enemies, it just doesn't seem right if you are fighting a colossal dragon.

Insanely big? Check
Insanely Strong? Check
4 legs so exceptionally stable? Check
Does any of that help it from being knocked prone? Nope

Maybe if the target is more than 2 size catagories larger than the Hell Rager, it has some other effect.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-28, 02:45 PM
Looks interesting.

Got a slight issue with Strike of Evil at level 17.

Basicly, it is a knocked prone, no save, doesn't matter what target, useable once every 1D4 rounds, meaning if lucky, you can do it again next round.

While mediocore while fighting lots of enemies, it just doesn't seem right if you are fighting a colossal dragon.

Insanely big? Check
Insanely Strong? Check
4 legs so exceptionally stable? Check
Does any of that help it from being knocked prone? Nope

Maybe if the target is more than 2 size catagories larger than the Hell Rager, it has some other effect.

Like what? I mean I see your logic, but what else could a blade hitting you, targeting your Reflex save accomplish?

Lateral
2011-10-28, 03:28 PM
Carnage Scissors should probably be reworded so that it works once per charge. (Unless you WANT it to double your attacks on a charge if you have Pounce. I don't think that's such a good idea.) I'd also recommend adding a clause for Hell Rage that says that Hell Rage counts as Rage for the purpose of feats and prestige classes, similar to the one Whirling Frenzy has. It'd be nice to have that built-in feat support. (You may have intended the clause at the end to do that, but it's good just to spell it out.)

Otherwise, this is epic. I like that the bonus to Intimidate is profane, too; you aren't going to find many of those, so this is incredibly powerful for intimidating builds, especially with the CHA bonuses.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-28, 03:40 PM
Carnage Scissors should probably be reworded so that it works once per charge. (Unless you WANT it to double your attacks on a charge if you have Pounce. I don't think that's such a good idea.)

Ack, you're right. I meant for this to be a limited version of Pounce, didn't even think about them stacking! Edited, thank you very much for the PEACH.


Otherwise, this is epic. I like that the bonus to Intimidate is profane, too; you aren't going to find many of those, so this is incredibly powerful for intimidating builds, especially with the CHA bonuses.

Thank you very much! And yeah, I didn't feel right making such a high bonus an untyped bonus, but it didn't really make sense to make it a racial bonus either, so I turned to the divine bonus types (which I should have immediately thought of but I never design divine classes, so yeah)

Edit: Saw your edit. Another good idea. Edited the text of Hell's Rage.

Iceforge
2011-10-28, 03:55 PM
Like what? I mean I see your logic, but what else could a blade hitting you, targeting your Reflex save accomplish?

How about:

"If the target is 2 (or 3) size catagories larger than the Hell Rager, it is unstabilized instead of knocked prone.

Unstabilized targets counts as flat-footed until the start of their next turn where they regain their stability as a free action"

It is a nerf mechanically, but seeing how all other attacks that can knock a target prone is limited by size as well, this seems bit more in-line with them, and it is still usefull and fluff wise, it makes a lot more sense than knocking them over entirely.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-28, 03:58 PM
How about:

"If the target is 2 (or 3) size catagories larger than the Hell Rager, it is unstabilized instead of knocked prone.

Unstabilized targets counts as flat-footed until the start of their next turn where they regain their stability as a free action"

It is a nerf mechanically, but seeing how all other attacks that can knock a target prone is limited by size as well, this seems bit more in-line with them, and it is still usefull and fluff wise, it makes a lot more sense than knocking them over entirely.

But spells and spell-like abilities that knock prone do not consider size at all. This is a strike that is empowered by evil (Its evil seeped into the blade makes the target sick, and its terror causes the target to shiver with fright)

I suppose if I made it a supernatural ability it would help the fluff make sense, but it's definitely a divine attack.

Iceforge
2011-10-28, 05:43 PM
It is up to you, it is your homebrew, it just does not seem right to me, is all I can say

EDIT: but then again, the power level of this beast is generally way over what I'd allow when people ask for various homebrew to be approved in a game, im just nitpicking a single thing here.

I guess if we go for a tier1 melee, this is a good suggestion, I just take it as a bad sign when a class would generally be strongly considerable as the absolut best choise if it was include in the players handbook, which this is bordering to be.

EDIT2: On more careful examination, this would be the obvious first choise for any senseable player if it was in the PHB, and they were allowed to play evil characters.

Highest possible hit dice, average skill points, exceptional melee capacities and in the higher levels, spell-like abilities that can easily compete and even out-compete a wizard, at level 15 one could have:

At-will - blasphemy, charm person, cone of cold, confusion, desecrate, detect good, detect magic, dispel good, dispel magic, hold person, ice storm, improved invisibility, legend lore, magic circle against good, major image, polymorph self, suggestion, telekinesis, teleport without error, unhallow, unholy aura, wall of ice.
2/day - meteor swarm, insanity, power word blind, symbol(any)
1/day - energy drain, foresight
CL = 20

By picking Xerfilstyx as the 15HD devil to take spell-like abilities from

mrcarter11
2011-10-28, 07:10 PM
Thought the Fiend Folio counted as 3.0 not 3.5. Which would render that untrue.. Since in my experience most people don't use both 3.0 and 3.5. And past that, okay is it a semi valid point.

However, you also had to pick of the two devils I know of that are usually cited for having a load of SLA's. And I'm still not convinced that they can out compete a wizard.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-28, 07:24 PM
Thought the Fiend Folio counted as 3.0 not 3.5. Which would render that untrue.. Since in my experience most people don't use both 3.0 and 3.5. And past that, okay is it a semi valid point.

However, you also had to pick of the two devils I know of that are usually cited for having a load of SLA's. And I'm still not convinced that they can out compete a wizard.

He's right. 3.0 material gets banned from my tables, except BoVD and CoR, and that's only because evil characters don't get enough love in 3.5 and because I wouldn't feel right permitting BoED and CoV without the others.


I just take it as a bad sign when a class would generally be strongly considerable as the absolut best choise if it was include in the players handbook, which this is bordering to be.


So you don't allow druids in your games then?


Highest possible hit dice, average skill points, exceptional melee capacities and in the higher levels, spell-like abilities that can easily compete and even out-compete a wizard, at level 15 one could have:

At-will - blasphemy, charm person, cone of cold, confusion, desecrate, detect good, detect magic, dispel good, dispel magic, hold person, ice storm, improved invisibility, legend lore, magic circle against good, major image, polymorph self, suggestion, telekinesis, teleport without error, unhallow, unholy aura, wall of ice.
2/day - meteor swarm, insanity, power word blind, symbol(any)
1/day - energy drain, foresight
CL = 20

By picking Xerfilstyx as the 15HD devil to take spell-like abilities from

Er...do you realize what you just did? You actually, honestly suggested there was a reason to take this class to level 15. One class! For 15 levels! No mutliclassing, no dipping, no prestiges!

That, in my opinion, is considered a good sign.

With all the stupid prestigeing and mutliclassing that everyone does in this game, it's good to hear that there's a real reason to stick with a single base class for 15 levels. I'm glad to hear you think that my class is actually better than dipping monk or wizard or going into some convoluted prestige class like arcane hierophant, frenzied berserker or incantatrix. :smallsmile:

Lateral
2011-10-28, 07:28 PM
He does have a point, though; Devil's Chant can get a little powerful, what with all of the devils out there. I might actually add that at-will spell-likes become 3/day each, to prevent just spamming them. At high levels, sure, those spell-likes can be pretty powerful and can become your main form of attack, but that really isn't such a big deal by that point- casters are still raping your combat power, especially so long as those at-wills are 3/day so that you can't spam blasphemy until everything dies, and initiators and such tier 3s are about on par.

With that adjustment, I'd rate this as about mid-tier 3; you have all three social skills plus built-in Charisma boosts and a massive Intimidate modifier, and you have the skill points to make it work. In combat, you can shift between charging, intimidating, making use of your SLAs, or just full attacking when necessary; you've got some pretty flexible options, and they're all supported well by the class features. At higher levels, when this becomes important, those SLAs can also translate into some out-of-combat utility; 1/day Suggestion goes a long way, as does a self-only Greater Teleport a few times a day at later levels.

Also, if you have the time, this could use a specialized prestige class or two. At the very least, you've got to make a prestige class for ones who turn nonlawful and nongood, so that I can build Hellboy. :smalltongue:

Iceforge
2011-10-28, 07:46 PM
Yeah, my bad for using a 3.0 source, Im tired (only up cause gf got family troubles, so got to be awake in case she needs to call and talk), should have noticed when I got to the wrongly named spells.

I think the at-wills becoming 3/day would be a very good idea, I have a problem with a class that is as good as the barbarian, if not better, in a straight up melee fight, can fly and can out-nuke the wizard because their nuke spells are at-will.


And about the druid....strangely enough, while I DM, I have yet to encounter anyone who wants to play it.

And yes, im serious, only had one player who played it, and that was until the first encounter, level 1, no DM screen, standard goblin got lucky critical and put him at -11 during the surprise round.
Instead of retconning, he just immidiately made a new character, thinking it was funny (nice spirited player), but thats all the druid I had in any of my games, having played DnD since 3rd edition was first published

That being said, if the Hell Rager was in the core book, in any campaign where evil was allowed, at least half of the players would have chosen it, I know them well enough to know that.

EDIT: And before I moved and found new people to play with, multi-classing was basicly unheard off amongst those I played with.

But my former groups having been exceptionally low optimizers does not make a point against your homebrew, just adding this as a response to your druid remark

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-28, 07:47 PM
He does have a point, though; Devil's Chant can get a little powerful, what with all of the devils out there. I might actually add that at-will spell-likes become 3/day each, to prevent just spamming them. At high levels, sure, those spell-likes can be pretty powerful and can become your main form of attack, but that really isn't such a big deal by that point- casters are still raping your combat power, especially so long as those at-wills are 3/day so that you can't spam blasphemy until everything dies, and initiators and such tier 3s are about on par.

With that adjustment, I'd rate this as about mid-tier 3; you have all three social skills plus built-in Charisma boosts and a massive Intimidate modifier, and you have the skill points to make it work. In combat, you can shift between charging, intimidating, making use of your SLAs, or just full attacking when necessary; you've got some pretty flexible options, and they're all supported well by the class features. At higher levels, when this becomes important, those SLAs can also translate into some out-of-combat utility; 1/day Suggestion goes a long way, as does a self-only Greater Teleport a few times a day at later levels.

Also, if you have the time, this could use a specialized prestige class or two. At the very least, you've got to make a prestige class for ones who turn nonlawful and nongood, so that I can build Hellboy. :smalltongue:

I think I'll make it so that if the spell is 4th level or higher, at-wills become 3/day. That way, the utility spells like detect magic and invisibility can still be used all day, while the powerful spams are reasonably limited.

Is 4th too low for that, or just right do you think?

Mr.Bookworm
2011-10-28, 08:01 PM
I like the rest of the class (mostly, but this is just the most glaring problem I see), but why are you getting the ability to summon a Pit Fiend, 4 times a day (at 20th level, 1/day at 18th)?

To which someone is going to reply "You can gate in a Pit Fiend at 18th level", to which I will reply "Gate is the worst possible balance point you could pick for anything ever", to which they will bow down to my ultimate wisdom and erect a solid gold statue of me in their living room.

Annnnnyway, no, that is not something you should be getting. Summoners don't really get the ability to summon anything close to their own CR (again yes, gate, but gate is an absolutely ****ty balance point, etc.), because that turns "play the Hell Rager" into "play as a Pit Fiend with a Hell Rager sidekick". Even the Horned Devil is almost too much, since that's more than anything a summoner is getting (Barbed Devil at CR 11 is on the summon monster IX list).

Maybe spread out the summoning among the levels, instead of just dumping it on the capstone?

EDIT: Other stuff.

Hell's Chant, rather than picking from any devil, which is going to get messy any way you cut it, might work better as a set list of SLAs. If you want variety, give them a choice between a couple of options whenever they gain a new one.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-28, 08:06 PM
I like the rest of the class, but why are you getting the ability to summon a Pit Fiend, 4 times a day?


Because you worship and devote yourself to the Nine Hells, and they reward your service with the pit fiends.



To which someone is going to reply "You can gate in a Pit Fiend at 18th level", to which I will reply "Gate is the worst possible balance point you could pick for anything ever", to which they will bow down to my ultimate wisdom and erect a solid gold statue of me in their living room.


Fair point. How about the fact that I'm trying to make the hell rager a powerful devil in exchange for not prestiging, not multiclassing, and not being a spellcaster for 20 levels?



Annnnnyway, no, that is not something you should be getting. Summoners don't really get the ability to summon anything close to their own CR (again yes, gate, but gate is an absolutely ****ty balance point, etc.), because that turns "play the Hell Rager" into "play as a Pit Fiend with a Hell Rager sidekick". Even the Horned Devil is almost too much, since that's more than anything a summoner is getting (Barbed Devil at CR 11 is on the summon monster IX list).


Summoners can be any alignment, and they can also cast other spells. You're comparing a spellcaster's abilities to that of a melee warrior. Why? You're failing to take into account the entire spell list a spellcaster gets, as opposed to this one ability.



Maybe spread it out among the levels, instead of just dumping it on the capstone?

The reason that I put it at the capstone is because it's so powerful. I'm rewarding a melee fighter for taking a single class all 20 levels. Giving it early is just going to encourage yet more dipping.

Zakaroth
2011-10-28, 08:08 PM
Er...do you realize what you just did? You actually, honestly suggested there was a reason to take this class to level 15. One class! For 15 levels! No mutliclassing, no dipping, no prestiges!

That, in my opinion, is considered a good sign.

With all the stupid prestigeing and mutliclassing that everyone does in this game, it's good to hear that there's a real reason to stick with a single base class for 15 levels. I'm glad to hear you think that my class is actually better than dipping monk or wizard or going into some convoluted prestige class like arcane hierophant, frenzied berserker or incantatrix. :smallsmile:

I completely agree with this statement. :smallbiggrin:

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-28, 08:16 PM
Hell's Chant, rather than picking from any devil, which is going to get messy any way you cut it, might work better as a set list of SLAs. If you want variety, give them a choice between a couple of options whenever they gain a new one.

I like the flavor too much to do that. It essentially turns a single devil into your domain for the day, and allows you to channel that creature's power.

Meanwhile, a pre-selected group of SLAs is too much like just straight playing a cleric of the Nine Hells, which is exactly what I'm trying to avoid.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-28, 08:28 PM
Clarified the summoning ability and made sure that no pit fiend the hell rager summons will ever cast wish for him, so he never gets any uses of wish out of his class features.

Lateral
2011-10-28, 08:59 PM
Eh, I don't know, it still seems like a bit much. Remember, a pit fiend is CR 20; you're summoning something equivalent to four ECL 20 characters. And you can do that every combat. It's just a little over-the-top; you're trivializing one encounter at 18th level, and all of them at 20th. It makes it not fun for other people, so it's probably a good idea to tone it down.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-28, 09:19 PM
Eh, I don't know, it still seems like a bit much. Remember, a pit fiend is CR 20; you're summoning something equivalent to four ECL 20 characters. And you can do that every combat. It's just a little over-the-top; you're trivializing one encounter at 18th level, and all of them at 20th. It makes it not fun for other people, so it's probably a good idea to tone it down.

True. Say what you want about gate, but it still has an XP cost. Alright, I'll remove the pit fiend summoning.

The horned devil and ice devil options should be good enough.

Iceforge
2011-10-29, 03:38 AM
You need to clearify how long a summoning from Hell rage lasts.

At the moment, it is not mentioned, which would make one assume it lasts 1 hour just like the other summoning, but that seems a tad wrong

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-29, 03:42 AM
You need to clearify how long a summoning from Hell rage lasts.

At the moment, it is not mentioned, which would make one assume it lasts 1 hour just like the other summoning, but that seems a tad wrong

Clarifying now.

Noctis Vigil
2011-10-29, 04:23 AM
He's right. 3.0 material gets banned from my tables, except BoVD and CoR, and that's only because evil characters don't get enough love in 3.5 and because I wouldn't feel right permitting BoED and CoV without the others.

CoR and CoV? What books are these? They match nothing in my admittedly impressive D&D library, and I'm always opened to new D&D books. :smallwink:

This looks like a very flavorful class, but this is not a class you throw around in groups (from a GM perspective). Two or three of these would be a good fight for a slightly less than optimized group, IMHO (especially if that group is heavily combat based instead of casters). Would be good with weak evil cleric mooks (much weaker than the Hell Rager for combat groups).

Sorry I don't have much of a player's perspective; I can honestly count the number of times I've been on the player side of a GM screen on one hand.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-29, 10:39 AM
CoR and CoV? What books are these? They match nothing in my admittedly impressive D&D library, and I'm always opened to new D&D books. :smallwink:

Champions of Ruin and Champions of Valor.



This looks like a very flavorful class, but this is not a class you throw around in groups (from a GM perspective). Two or three of these would be a good fight for a slightly less than optimized group, IMHO (especially if that group is heavily combat based instead of casters). Would be good with weak evil cleric mooks (much weaker than the Hell Rager for combat groups).


Yes, but one of them as an evil boss would be nice, right? With the built in Damage Reduction, wings, and the ability to call devils, he would make a good mini-boss (probably not a BBEG, but a nice little throw-away boss)



Sorry I don't have much of a player's perspective; I can honestly count the number of times I've been on the player side of a GM screen on one hand.

No problem here! Thanks for your input.

Lateral
2011-10-30, 02:33 PM
Y'know, it'd be cool to see a CE alternate version of this class, like the Paladin variants in UA. All it would need would be a few modified abilities.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-30, 03:55 PM
Y'know, it'd be cool to see a CE alternate version of this class, like the Paladin variants in UA. All it would need would be a few modified abilities.

Alright then, let's see what I can do

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-30, 04:45 PM
I present to you all, the Chaotic Evil version of the Hell Rager, the Abyss Striker! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12128697#post12128697)

Morph Bark
2011-11-02, 01:13 PM
Had some issues before I could get to it, so here I am for a review!

The +8 profane bonus to Intimidate is mighty hefty, I suggest lowering it. Since it goes up by 4 later on, start out with +4. It's still noticeable and puts you easily face-to-face with creatures a size category bigger than you.

The fire resistance is also pretty huge, but due to time limits (rage) I suppose it's fine.

The big thing about Hell Rage though is that apparently you can still cast spells during it and can use any skill without trouble. This makes it an ideal dip for any Cha-based caster who wants to gish it up a little without really losing anything.

Strike of Evil at level 17 says you become helpless if you don't make the save, but doesn't specify exactly how you become helpless. For all we know you are frozen in place. Getting knocked prone is already pretty huge too, especially if they also become shaken and sickened at the same time. Looking over it, it appears you haven't put a daily limit on it. I suggest you do so. Perhaps start with 2, gain 1 extra use for every 3 levels after 2nd.

For purposes of Devil's Chant it might be an idea to include a list of devils and where they can be found in which book and all.

For the Damage Reduction you could put in that they get the choice of increasing it by 2, making it and rather than or, or removing one of the two from the equation.

Carnage Scissors stacking with keen or Improved Crit is overkill, but otherwise peachy. Also make the additional attack not stack with haste, though even if haste is in effect the crit-enhancing of course would still happen.

The Gift of the Devils is awesomely fluffy-crunchy. I like.

For Mighty Hell Rage: isn't there a feat that works with charging while flying? Might actually be thinking of Fly-by Attack, but if not that one might actually work even better.

Noctis Vigil
2011-11-02, 01:22 PM
For Mighty Hell Rage: isn't there a feat that works with charging while flying? Might actually be thinking of Fly-by Attack, but if not that one might actually work even better.

The feat is called Diving Charge. (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-679-diving-charge.html)

NeoSeraphi
2011-11-02, 01:24 PM
Had some issues before I could get to it, so here I am for a review!

The +8 profane bonus to Intimidate is mighty hefty, I suggest lowering it. Since it goes up by 4 later on, start out with +4. It's still noticeable and puts you easily face-to-face with creatures a size category bigger than you.

The fire resistance is also pretty huge, but due to time limits (rage) I suppose it's fine.


Alright, I'll lower the bonus to Intimidate then.


The big thing about Hell Rage though is that apparently you can still cast spells during it and can use any skill without trouble. This makes it an ideal dip for any Cha-based caster who wants to gish it up a little without really losing anything.

No, no no. You missed the line at the end that says "This ability is otherwise like a barbarian's rage with all the same penalties and drawbacks". You are still unable to do anything during a hell rage that you couldn't do during a normal rage, and you are still fatigued at the end of a hell rage. You may only fly into a hell rage once per encounter, may not hell rage while you are fatigued or exhausted, etc etc.


Strike of Evil at level 17 says you become helpless if you don't make the save, but doesn't specify exactly how you become helpless. For all we know you are frozen in place. Getting knocked prone is already pretty huge too, especially if they also become shaken and sickened at the same time. Looking over it, it appears you haven't put a daily limit on it. I suggest you do so. Perhaps start with 2, gain 1 extra use for every 3 levels after 2nd.


I will clarify how the creature becomes helpless.

The ability is intended to be used at will, with a 1d4 round cooldown. As it stacks up at higher levels, it is intended to be competing with the hell rager's full-round attack (since it takes a standard action to use)

It is supposed to be akin to a martial maneuver of its equivalent level, since the cooldown time takes about the same time to recover as a martial maneuver.

Getting knocked prone is pretty serious, but it's still a 17th level ability. It's strong, but it's not as strong as Greater Frenzy+Supreme Power Attack, or bear-raging, or any of the other juicy options that normal barbarians get.


For purposes of Devil's Chant it might be an idea to include a list of devils and where they can be found in which book and all.

A fine idea, but I am far too lazy to do something like that. (Especially when I'm trying to make up a sourcebook at the same time!)


For the Damage Reduction you could put in that they get the choice of increasing it by 2, making it and rather than or, or removing one of the two from the equation.


That would make the hell rager's damage reduction superior to a devil's, which would not make sense as he is drawing that power from the devils themselves.


Carnage Scissors stacking with keen or Improved Crit is overkill, but otherwise peachy. Also make the additional attack not stack with haste, though even if haste is in effect the crit-enhancing of course would still happen.

I don't think you get an additional attack at the end of a charge when you're hasted.


The Gift of the Devils is awesomely fluffy-crunchy. I like.

Why thank you.


For Mighty Hell Rage: isn't there a feat that works with charging while flying? Might actually be thinking of Fly-by Attack, but if not that one might actually work even better.

You might be thinking of the dragonborn/raptoran dive attack. I've never heard of a feat that lets you charge while flying.

NeoSeraphi
2011-11-02, 01:32 PM
The feat is called Diving Charge. (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-679-diving-charge.html)

That doesn't allow you to make a charge while flying. It grants you bonus damage when you charge while flying. (Basically you have to be a raptoran, whose racial traits allow you to charge while flying)

Noctis Vigil
2011-11-02, 02:34 PM
Can you quote me rules on that? I find nowhere that says you have to be a specific race to charge while flying (although I'm doing like 6 things at once, so I might have just missed it).

NeoSeraphi
2011-11-02, 02:44 PM
Can you quote me rules on that? I find nowhere that says you have to be a specific race to charge while flying (although I'm doing like 6 things at once, so I might have just missed it).

Any race can charge while flying, I guess. But since that's the case, the hell rager doesn't need Diving Charge as a feat. I'm pretty sure in this instance Morph was talking about making a dive attack, which is what raptorans and dragonborn do.