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Telasi
2011-10-28, 01:54 AM
I saw a need for this recently when I couldn't find a good fusion PrC for a Cleric/Rogue, so I decided to brew one up for myself. This is the revised version, after some input from other people in my group. Please tell me how I did, and what, if anything, needs to be changed. Name pending, suggestions welcome.

<PrC Name> (Cleric/Rogue Hybrid PrC)
Hit Die: d8
Requirements
Feats: Silent Spell
Skills: Bluff 5 ranks, Stealth 5 ranks
Spells: Must be able to cast second level divine spells
Special: Sneak Attack +1d6, any one Rogue Talent

Class Skills
Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Local) (Int), Knowledge (Religion) (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Stealth (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha)
Skill ranks at each level: 6+Int modifier
Table: <PrC name>
{table]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|Spells per Day
1st|+0|+0|+1|+1|Sneak Attack +1d6|+1 level of existing divine class
2nd|+1|+1|+1|+1|Rogue Talent|+1 level of existing divine class
3rd|+2|+1|+2|+2 |Tricksterís Mantle|+1 level of existing divine class
4th|+3|+1|+2|+2 |Sneak Attack +1d6|+1 level of existing divine class
5th|+3|+2|+3|+3|Rogue Talent|+1 level of existing divine class
6th|+4|+2|+3|+3 |Assassinís Spell|+1 level of existing divine class
7th|+5|+2|+4|+4 |Sneak Attack +1d6|+1 level of existing divine class
8th|+6|+3|+4|+4|Rogue Talent|+1 level of existing divine class
9th|+6|+3|+5|+5|Deceptive Casting|+1 level of existing divine class
10th|+7|+3|+5|+5|Sneak Attack +1d6|+1 level of existing divine class
[/table]

Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: <PrC name>s gain no proficiency with any weapon, armor, or shield.

Spellcasting: At each level, you gain new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had gained a level in a divine spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain any other benefits a character of that class would have gained. If you belong to more than one divine spellcasting class, you must decide to which class the level will be added for the purpose of determining spells per day, caster level, and spells known.

Sneak Attack: At first level, and every three levels after that, the <PrC name> gains one die of sneak attack damage. This ability functions as the rogue class feature of the same name, and stacks with any other source of sneak attack damage the <PrC name> may have.

Rogue Talents: At second level, and every three levels after that, a <PrC name> gains one rogue talent, chosen from the normal list of rogue talents. If the sum of the characterís rogue and <PrC name> levels is at least eleven, she may choose to select an advanced rogue talent in place of the rogue talent she would normally gain from her <PrC name> level.

Tricksterís Mantle (Sp): At third level, a <PrC name> may expend a swift action to gain concealment for a number of rounds equal to her class level. This ability may be used once per day at third level, plus one additional use per day for every three <PrC name> levels thereafter.

Assassinís Spell: At sixth level, the <PrC name> may designate a spell she casts as an assassinís spell when she casts it. This does not increase the spell level or casting time. A spell cast in this way has no effect when cast, but may be triggered as a swift action at a later time by the <PrC name> who cast it. She must designate a specific target, who may be the <PrC name> herself, within the spellís normal range when using this ability, even if the spell is not normally targeted. If the spell normally requires an attack roll, it must be made when designating the target; if the spell would be expended on a miss, then one use of assassinís spell is also expended, otherwise she may try again as normal. When the spell is triggered, the spell takes effect immediately as if it had just been cast on the target. If, when cast, the assassin's spell would have been eligible for sneak attack or other precision based damage bonuses, then those bonuses apply to the spell when it takes effect. Spells with an area of effect are centered on the designated target.
The target is not aware that he is the target of an assassinís spell unless he is aware of the <PrC name> and makes a successful Spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level) to identify the assassinís spell when it is cast; failure tells him that the spell failed as if he had succeeded a saving throw to negate it. Examining the target with Detect Magic or Arcane Sight also entitles the examiner to attempt the Spellcraft check to identify the assassinís spell. An assassinís spell cannot be dispelled before it takes effect, but a Remove Curse or Break Enchantment can remove it if the caster is aware that the subject is the target of an assassinís spell. When the <PrC name> prepares or refreshes her daily allotment of spells, any assassinís spells she has placed are immediately lost unless she expends one of her daily uses of the ability for each spell she wishes to remain in place. This ability may be used a number of times per day equal to 3 + the <PrC name>ís primary spellcasting ability modifier.

Deceptive Casting: At ninth level, a <PrC name> is able to alter or omit the verbal components of her spells at will. If she wishes, she may apply the benefits of Silent Spell to any spell she casts without increasing the casting time or spell level. Alternatively, she may alter the verbal components of the spell to whatever she wishes. If she chooses to mimic the verbal components of a different spell, anyone attempting to identify the spell must succeed on a Spellcraft check opposed by her Bluff check to correctly identify the spell. Failing this opposed check means that the spell is misidentified as another spell, chosen by the <PrC name>, assuming that the Spellcraft result would have been sufficient to identify the spell normally.

The Underlord
2011-10-28, 08:06 AM
Have you seen the Giant's divine trickster? Anyway, what exactly is a rogue "talent" do you mean the special abilities you get at 10th level?.

gourdcaptain
2011-10-28, 12:42 PM
Have you seen the Giant's divine trickster? Anyway, what exactly is a rogue "talent" do you mean the special abilities you get at 10th level?.

It's Pathfinder-based. Rogues get to pick a Rogue Talent option every even level in PF.

Zeta Kai
2011-10-28, 01:01 PM
From what I can tell, this has the same problem as a Mystic Theurge: by the time you can gain access to this PrC, you're already behind both a Rogue of the same character lever & a Cleric of the same character level. Due to limitations on your action economy, during each action, you can choose to be either a behind-the-curve Rogue or a behind-the-curve Cleric, thus never contributing at the same level as a character who had taken all of their class levels in one class or the other. Unless you can gain early entry, this class has limited potential; with early entry, you'd never want anything else, of course.

Also, what does a character do after gaining level 10 in this PrC? They'll be level 14 or so, with 6 levels of god-knows-what to go until level 20. These things need to be taken into account when designing any dual-progression class, as the Mystic Theurge & the Eldritch Knight clearly illustrate.

Telasi
2011-10-28, 04:26 PM
Time to deal with the responses in order, I suppose.


Have you seen the Giant's divine trickster? Anyway, what exactly is a rogue "talent" do you mean the special abilities you get at 10th level?.

No, I haven't.

Rogue talents are the class feature you get every even level, mostly minor abilities that add some variety to the class. As gourdcaptain (who was in on the design from the beginning) said, this is a PrC designed for Pathfinder. It's labeled 3.P because that's how we play, so I want to hear about anything I didn't think of as far as interacting with 3.5 material goes.


From what I can tell, this has the same problem as a Mystic Theurge: by the time you can gain access to this PrC, you're already behind both a Rogue of the same character lever & a Cleric of the same character level. Due to limitations on your action economy, during each action, you can choose to be either a behind-the-curve Rogue or a behind-the-curve Cleric, thus never contributing at the same level as a character who had taken all of their class levels in one class or the other. Unless you can gain early entry, this class has limited potential; with early entry, you'd never want anything else, of course.

Mystic Theurge is a special case because it's solely a casting PrC. Caster/mundane fusions suffer less, in my view, from the delayed casting because they have other things to do, and tend to fill a different party role than primary caster. Eldritch Knight is a bad example, in that it's a Fighter/Mage PrC that has few or no abilities that actually make it a fusion and advances largely non-synergistic classes.

Cleric/Rogue works a bit better because:

Clerics are primary spellcasters.
Rogues are primary skillmonkeys.
Both Cleric and Rogue are secondary combat classes.


In general, skillmonkey and spellcaster abilities aren't both needed in the same situations (though either one can solve many problems), so I don't see an issue with primary role conflict there. The way class skills work in Pathfinder means that the really key skills will be at full ranks, too, so the cleric's 2+Int (4+Int with the Cloistered Cleric archetype, which is my choice for going into this class) aren't a huge hindrance. The fact that both are secondary combatants is good, since they won't hinder each other on that front in the same way that the BAB drop from mage levels in EK does.

As far as action economy goes, take a look at the Assassin's Spell feature at sixth level. While it's set up to be a "I cast Harm on him while he's not looking and trigger it later" feature, it has much more utility than that. Clerics tend to like self-buffing; this lets them have a Divine Power on themselves that only needs a swift action to trigger. If you want to not waste time healing in combat, set up a Heal on the BSF. It's not extra actions, but it does let you set up some of the things you'll want later and save yourself some time in a fight.


Also, what does a character do after gaining level 10 in this PrC? They'll be level 14 or so, with 6 levels of god-knows-what to go until level 20. These things need to be taken into account when designing any dual-progression class, as the Mystic Theurge & the Eldritch Knight clearly illustrate.

Well, the obvious answer is to take levels in cleric.

On the less sarcastic side, I plan to do levels 11-15 as an option to solve this issue once I get some useful feedback on the standard 10-level PrC. I did think of this before, I just want to have the standard PrC working right before I start experimenting with the extended progression. I don't homebrew much.

Hazzardevil
2011-10-29, 11:30 AM
On the less sarcastic side, I plan to do levels 11-15 as an option to solve this issue once I get some useful feedback on the standard 10-level PrC. I did think of this before, I just want to have the standard PrC working right before I start experimenting with the extended progression. I don't homebrew much.

I would personally take Holy Vindicter and other cleric prestige classes, you have little to gain from taking more cleric since your domains would be too weak for anything else.

gourdcaptain
2011-10-29, 10:06 PM
Just realized something - you should probably state that an Assassin's spell is not dispellable until it triggers - the way it's written that protection could persist after activation. And that could get weird.

stainboy
2011-10-30, 03:13 PM
Some ideas:

-Clarify how Assassin's Spell interacts with touch spells, especially with regard to sneak attack.

-You might give out a Lesser Deceptive Casting at level 1. Not necessarily full-on free Silent Spell, but just enough to guarantee their spells are quiet enough to cast from stealth.

-Have you considered letting <PrC Name>s poach some spells off the 3.5 assassin list? Divine spells have pretty spotty stealth support (even with the Trickery domain) unless you do something like Shukenja entry.



Have you seen the Giant's divine trickster? Anyway, what exactly is a rogue "talent" do you mean the special abilities you get at 10th level?.

I like Rich's Divine Trickster but it doesn't make much sense in 3.P. Their first level ability is a hack to let them sneak attack undead; PF rogues don't need that.

Telasi
2011-10-30, 03:39 PM
Just realized something - you should probably state that an Assassin's spell is not dispellable until it triggers - the way it's written that protection could persist after activation. And that could get weird.

Fixed.


Some ideas:

-Clarify how Assassin's Spell interacts with touch spells, especially with regard to sneak attack.

-You might give out a Lesser Deceptive Casting at level 1. Not necessarily full-on free Silent Spell, but just enough to guarantee their spells are quiet enough to cast from stealth.

-Have you considered letting <PrC Name>s poach some spells off the 3.5 assassin list? Divine spells have pretty spotty stealth support (even with the Trickery domain) unless you do something like Shukenja entry.

Done.

Not a bad idea. I need to think about how to implement that, though.

I have not. Not sure about the assassin list, but I'll give implementing a few extra stealth-oriented spells some thought and talk to my sounding board here.

stainboy
2011-10-31, 01:57 AM
I have not. Not sure about the assassin list, but I'll give implementing a few extra stealth-oriented spells some thought and talk to my sounding board here.

I just meant look at the assassin list for ideas, not directly reference it. I agree it'd be weird for a class that can only be entered by PF rogues/ninjas to reference a spell list that doesn't even exist in PF.