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Doc Roc
2011-10-31, 07:34 PM
Closed Beta is Over. Soft Launch begins on the 25th.

So we made a game! It's a pretty cool game, we think. This is the last beta cycle we've got before a proper public release on black friday, and I thought it'd be lovely to see what you folks thought of it.

You can find the most up-to-date information at this link (http://www.ruleofcool.com). But it's important to remember that this is a game still in production, even if it's in the last stages. A particular point of interest and concern for us is the feat selection, both in terms of breadth and in terms of depth. Any feedback related to that would be super welcome!

gkathellar
2011-10-31, 08:26 PM
Cool, you've updated this! I've been interested in Legend for quite a while, and have basically wanted to play it since I saw the skills chapter. I'm glad to see all of the improvements herein, as I really like the work that's been done here. That said, I do have some criticism.

Some of the things that bother me most are the artifacts from "this is like D&D, but better balanced." The section on TWF-ing, for example, mentions that TWF is dead — a statement that has no relevance to people unfamiliar with D&D and/or its metagame. Having "Good" and "Medium" BAB progressions is a similarly odd artifact (why not just "High" and "Low," since there are only the two?).

Other problems seems to be development cycle artifacts. The Elf entry has "Melee Finesse" listed as a bonus feat, but as far as I can tell that particular Feat doesn't exist. I can't find any more on a quick look, but you should go through and be careful of this.

I have only two issues with the classes: firstly, Shaman's Path just annoys me. It's just a free Guild Initiate feat, rather than actually giving the class a third path. Secondly, the lack of a straight-ish fighter class is troubling. I'm well aware multiclassing lets you build such a character, but it still makes me feel weird. (I absolutely love the Ranger, by the way: it's tracks have tremendous internal synergy, but it also multiclasses well, making for a nicely done class).

In terms of feats, you have some problems. There's not a lot of variety, and some of the feats are just ... weird? The alcohol feats and The Bitter Dregs are particularly odd examples. Elven War Dance annoys me in part because it's better for halflings and humans than it is for elves, whose Con penalty makes for poor barbarians even with Dex as an attack stat. Last Son of a Dead World seems excessively powerful. Many other feats need a bit of cleaning up.

Doc Roc
2011-10-31, 09:05 PM
Last Son is actually getting cut until we can fix it. There will be a couple things in DLC with Bad BAB, but I do think we should change that. We can always have Good Bad Awful. Or ugly. Melee finesse is a bug. Discussion of TWF is probably basically a bug still.

Next rev is adding at least 8 more feats, though I'd like to get that number up closer to 30. I'm the only content guy still working on Legend in a full-ish time capacity though, and I'm pretty burned out. Feat ideas are welcome.

Esser-Z
2011-11-01, 10:12 AM
Discussion of TWF is indeed going to be cut--we discussed that a little while back.

I, for one, am absolutely completely excited about the nearing completion. Legend is awesome.

Doc Roc
2011-11-01, 07:49 PM
Some (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1U6bWwxTLnetH9aGKq5qVXU2OCtGJyx1igm26oSkEtyI/edit?hl=en_US&pli=1) of the content missing from the current revision.

DelvinAnaris
2011-11-02, 03:10 PM
Greetings.

I'm back with proofreading of the new doc, since Doc Roc asked me to drop it here.

Page 9: Size Modifier mentions "grapple checks," but Legend apparently does not have these (at least not yet).

Page 9: Under Key Ability Modifiers, there should be a comma after "(Attack Bonus)".

Page 9: Table 1-1 has no — in the box for modifier 0, spell level 7.

Page 10: The wording of Strength is a bit odd. It first says that "Strength measures your character's" this, then that "Strength increases your character's" that. This seems to be talking about Strength in two quite different ways—first as a statistic, a measurement, and second as more of a concept. Simplest way I can see to fix this would be to change the "increases" to something more along the lines of "affects" or "has to do with".

Page 10: Strength is listed as being "also the KOM for"; the "also" is not included in any of the other stats, and should probably be left out for Strength as well.

Page 10: Is it necessary to state that "every creature has" a Wisdom and Charisma score? Surely every creature has all 6 stats?

Page 11: Under Saving Throws, the second paragraph is indented, but the third paragraph is not.

Page 13: Under Feat Selection, "At any rate" is jarringly casual. Should probably be replaced with something more formal like "in either case," or removed entirely.

Page 13: Under "Creating a Character above 1st Level", the instance of "1st" in the text does not have the ordinal properly superscripted.

Page 13: Under Ability Selection, neither the "1st" nor the "7th" have the ordinal properly superscripted.

Page 13: Similarly, under Race, Class, and Skill Selection, "1st" appears twice without proper superscripting.

Page 13: Under the second Feat Selection, Table 2-1 is referred to as "Table: Character Advancement".

Page 14: Since the introduction to the Leveling Up section makes clear that you do not need to worry about missing prerequisites due to the order of choosing your bonuses for level up, is it really necessary to present each one with "increase X now"? It seems somewhat strange.

More later; out of time for now.

gkathellar
2011-11-02, 03:19 PM
Should Arcantric Accuracy specify hostile spells? Or is it meant to make receiving buffs even better, as it seems presently?

How does Recon work if multiple characters have it?

Doc Roc
2011-11-02, 07:52 PM
Should Arcantric Accuracy specify hostile spells? Or is it meant to make receiving buffs even better, as it seems presently?

How does Recon work if multiple characters have it?

It's intended to make receiving buffs awesome, and getting hit with spells a bit less horrible.

Recon triggers for each character that has it.

Draz74
2011-11-03, 12:05 AM
I'm impressed how much more polished and complete the game feels than the last time I looked at it -- largely due to formatting. A little fluff text, a few pictures, a few more "To Be Added" sections filled in.

It's still got issues of bookkeeping and such. Preserving the mechanic of ability damage, for example.* But hey, if I want to play a game with a "fast and loose" feel to it -- more rules-heavy than Risus, but more rules-light than D&D, and higher-powered than OldSchoolHack, then I'd give it a whirl. It looks fun on the whole. :smallsmile:

I had a few comments/questions arise when I skimmed through the document:

p28: Heart of Fury says it's based on the bonuses from Greater Rage, rather than Mighty Rage. That would make it actually a nerf from the Barbarian's previous power.
p50: I miss the "Too Pretty to Die" reference. :smallamused:
p58: Are Shamen still unable to take Sage abilities, now that Sages are divided into Tracks more or less like other classes?
Can a character do anything to become not-terrible at non-Trained Skills?
p135: Can Miracle replicate Sage magical abilities?
p151: weapon descriptions say Unarmed Strike can be used at Close range, not just Melee range. This makes no sense.


* One particular instance where I'd recommend changing this: Why do Elves have a +1 bonus to saves vs. [mind-affecting], rather than rerolling saves vs. [mind-affecting]? The latter is easier to run at the table, and a little more exciting to use.

Sir Swindle89
2011-11-03, 08:55 AM
If it's not too late for formatting adjustments. Charts (such as the class ones) are much easier to read if they alternate white and a pale color for each line.

Doc Roc
2011-11-03, 07:03 PM
I can ask Flickerdart for his thoughts on the matter. Most of our tables are quite small though, in the name of readability.

Sir Swindle89
2011-11-04, 01:25 PM
I had trouble keeping my place, or else i woulddn't have mentioned it. Maybe it is easier to follow printed.

Flickerdart
2011-11-04, 10:15 PM
I'm ashamed to say that many design decisions were informed by "WotC did it that way, so we can't", and zebra-striped tables were one of the things they already did. They may be receiving alterations in the coming few weeks, along with a lot of the titling.

Also, in case it is not obvious, the entire table of contents is hyperlinked, so you don't need to scroll all the way to where you want to be.

Draz74
2011-11-04, 10:25 PM
I'm ashamed to say that many design decisions were informed by "WotC did it that way, so we can't", and zebra-striped tables were one of the things they already did. They may be receiving alterations in the coming few weeks, along with a lot of the titling.

Eh, zebra-striping is practically industry standard. If anyone asks, you can claim you were copying d20srd.org rather than WotC. :smallwink:

Nohwl
2011-11-04, 11:30 PM
vigilantes armor should be an item bonus.
stacking damage with rage, coldfire ingot, weaponmaster and damage specialization might be a problem.

Dust
2011-11-05, 02:12 AM
I had trouble keeping my place, or else i woulddn't have mentioned it. Maybe it is easier to follow printed.
I didn't find this to be the case at ALL, and I'd suggest it might be a YMMV situation.

NineThePuma
2011-11-05, 03:45 PM
Found a minor error in the legend doc; toward the end of the two paragraphs under the "Legend's Take on Roleplaying" header it refers to a "Gameplay Fundamentals" section. Said section doesn't seem to exist, though a Gameplay Basics does. (Page 5)

The Stacking rules (Page 8) might want to state that there are exceptions to "only largest applies" since there are exceptions stated on the same page. The minor contradiction might confuse those with a wisdom score below 12.

Chapter 2 has a rather odd order. You might want to change the sections to "Creating 1st level Characters -> Character Advancement -> Creating Characters Above 1st Level", rather than "Creating 1st level Characters -> Creating Characters Above 1st Level -> Character Advancement" as it is now.

Bookmarks are weird. Apparently Feat Selection is more important than Creating Characters Above 1st Level.

That's as much I've covered.

Doc Roc
2011-11-06, 10:49 AM
I didn't find this to be the case at ALL, and I'd suggest it might be a YMMV situation.

We may still opt to zebra them. It's up to Flicker. I tend to leave these sorts of decisions almost completely to him.

DelvinAnaris
2011-11-07, 04:17 PM
Moar proofreads!

Noticed while trying to locate something: The Table of Contents does not actually indicate chapter numbers. It might be possible to determine chapter numbers by apparent precedence of entries, if there weren't a large number of entries at the far left, looking like top-level entries, that are not chapter numbers.

Page 16: The first sentence of the last paragraph in the first column reiterates part of the previous paragraph, and appears to now be entirely redundant.

Page 17: Unclear whether the top of the second column is meant to be a new paragraph or not. If it is, it should probably be indented, since it is not the first paragraph of a section.

Page 17: In the last paragraph, it mentions that "most strongholds ban" booze-fighters; is this meant to be "most stoneholds"?

Page 18: The inclusion of "Ebenezer" as a first name here is quite incongruous when compared with the other example dwarf names given. (and yes, I get the joke, I just don't think I really wanted it)

Page 19: Didn't we rename Chatty Bugger?

Page 20: "...ruled by a reasonably benevolent monarch, in some cases, is not even a gnome." There should be a "who" between "monarch" and the comma following it.

Page 20: The semicolon in the second sentence of "Halfling Society" should be a comma.

Page 23: The "Legend Monster Guide" is italicized here in the Adaptation section; at the beginning of the chapter (Page 16, end of 1st paragraph), it is not italicized.

Page 23: "Fourth, give the race another thematically ability"—needs an "appropriate" in there. Or lose the "thematically"; either way works.

Page 24: Under Ability Tracks, first paragraph: "Each track genrally grants"—need another "e" in "generally" there

Page 24: Third paragraph, the list of classes there should be set off by long dashes or parenthesized. Commas are not appropriate here.

Page 24: Very end of the first column, Chapter 8, Spells and Spellcasting is mentioned. Chapter 8 is both GM Tools and Non-Combat Encounters (and each has what appears to be a full-fledged chapter heading with a VIII). Chapter 9 is Spells.

Page 28: Heart of Fury indicates that temporary HP are gained at the beginning of each encounter "as Greater Rage"; I believe this should be "as Mighty Rage", thus maintaining the recently-gained 2 extra temporary HP.

Page 28: Whirlwind and Shiva's Charge both say "These attacks do not threaten critical hits." I presume this means that attacks made with these abilities can never be critical hits, but that's not really clear. "These attacks cannot be critical hits, regardless of the attack die roll" would be a much clearer phrasing.

Page 28: Terrifying Presence mentions the "shaken" condition twice, but does not capitalize and bracket it either time. It also does not properly format the first mention of "fear effects".

Page 29: Monk fluff, last line, "to go beyond what his humanly possible." Should be "is", obviously.

Page 29: Monks in Your Game—the wording's a bit off, "almost any kind of unarmed fighter, mystic, or a wanderer sworn to poverty"—either the "a" before "wanderer" should be removed, or one should be added before "mystic".

Page 29: Multiclassing Tips—particularly since True Mage is not an actual class, it should be capitalized here.

That's all for today.

Doc Roc
2011-11-07, 06:59 PM
Looks like errors are getting a lot thinner on the ground here.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-11-07, 07:14 PM
I remember seeing a reference to making saves on your turn in at least the Hold Person spell, and it didn't say when during your turn you make the save (i.e. if you get actions or not). Unless you mention that elsewhere (and I'm not sure, as I've only skimmed so far), you'll want to specify. In fact, it might be best to specify in each case regardless.

Doc Roc
2011-11-08, 05:26 PM
I remember seeing a reference to making saves on your turn in at least the Hold Person spell, and it didn't say when during your turn you make the save (i.e. if you get actions or not). Unless you mention that elsewhere (and I'm not sure, as I've only skimmed so far), you'll want to specify. In fact, it might be best to specify in each case regardless.

Intent is beginning of turn. We should probably type that style of effect, and render the rules general so we can reuse it.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-11-08, 06:10 PM
Intent is beginning of turn. We should probably type that style of effect, and render the rules general so we can reuse it.

Then make sure it's the beginning of your turn after the first round only, or you effectively gain 2 saves against the effect.

End of your turn might be a more graceful way to achieve the same effect.

Doc Roc
2011-11-08, 07:16 PM
Then make sure it's the beginning of your turn after the first round only, or you effectively gain 2 saves against the effect.

End of your turn might be a more graceful way to achieve the same effect.

Hum, yeah, that's potentially cleaner, but also not identical to BoT.... Beginning of Next Turn's good, but forces people to remember things...

jiriku
2011-11-08, 07:36 PM
Still plowing through it, but so far I'm favorably impressed with the layout and appearance. Copy editing is very strong so far.

The rules for legendary characters on the last 2-3 pages are somewhat densely written. Nothing's grammatically incorrect it's just... college-level English usage. You might consider rewriting in a more accessible style.

The discussion of A = A-prime in the introduction may be somewhat intimidating to nontechnical readers. You might consider replacing the equation with a catchy phrase, such as "like should match like" or "don't rig the scales" or something.

Doc Roc
2011-11-09, 04:52 AM
Still plowing through it, but so far I'm favorably impressed with the layout and appearance. Copy editing is very strong so far.

The rules for legendary characters on the last 2-3 pages are somewhat densely written. Nothing's grammatically incorrect it's just... college-level English usage. You might consider rewriting in a more accessible style.

The discussion of A = A-prime in the introduction may be somewhat intimidating to nontechnical readers. You might consider replacing the equation with a catchy phrase, such as "like should match like" or "don't rig the scales" or something.

Tempted to go with As Above, So Below.... Quite flattered that you like it, by the way.

DelvinAnaris
2011-11-09, 04:15 PM
Continued.

Page 30: Flurry's first sentence still has 2 periods.

Page 30: The three ordinals in the first two paragraphs of this page are not properly superscripted ("1st-level", "11th-level", and "beyond 1st").

Page 30-31: "Mirror image" is never defined more clearly than its mention here in After-image. It is therefore difficult to understand how to determine what damage should be seen as being dealt to mirror images...

Page 31: If there are Five Deadly Venoms, why do you only get to choose from 2?

Page 31: Touch of Death has the [Death] descriptor right up front, highlighted in red between the ability name and its type indicator. Other abilities with bracketed descriptors have so far just indicated at the end of the description "this is a [descriptor] ability". Personally, I slightly favor the latter approach, but either would be fine if consistently applied.

Page 31: Between the Raindrops—"you gain a b bonus" seems to have an extra "b" hanging out in there for some reason.

Page 31: Planeshift (in Path Between Worlds) is also not fully defined anywhere. This particularly makes the "rather than the usual [miss chance]" confusing and ambiguous.

Page 31: True Resurrection (in Phoenix Reborn) is also not fully defined anywhere.

Page 32: For Diamond Soul, is there a lower limit on damage reduced this way? (Some might try to argue that it could push damage below 0 as written...)

Page 33: Paladin fluff

(...is on the next page.)

Page 35: For Requital, is there a lower limit on the move speed this can put opponents at?

Page 35: The wording of Endurance is slightly confusing. If it is truly just the first failed save in an encounter that has no effect, then a better wording would be simply: "The first time in each encounter that you fail a saving throw..."

Page 35: There is still inconsistency in how "feet" are being notated. I think it would be preferable to abbreviate it in The Shield, much as it is in Knowing.

Page 35: The Mantle should note that it is the first successful (or otherwise successful) dispel attempt that is canceled.

Page 36: The Ready says that the pool refreshes daily. I thought we were trying to stamp out dailies?

Page 36: Given that The Blade and the Bow requires that your partner be within sight to be chosen, it might be wise to note that the bonuses persist even when outside LoS of each other.

Page 36: In Of Might and Guile—"your KOM modifier" is redundantly redundant.

Page 36: The Guile choice of Of Might and Guile does not specify that the partner must be within Medium range to use the ability, as Might does, but I presume it to be the case. It should be specified.

Page 36: "Critical threat range" is not, so far as I can tell, ever defined.

Page 36: If you and your partner both have The Quick and the Dead, does that mean that neither of you can be targeted by LoS effects?

Page 37: In War Engine, "charisma" is mentioned uncapitalized.

Page 37: In Font, "feet" is again written out, multiple times, rather than being abbreviated. (Still.)

Page 37: There is extra space above the second column on this page.

Page 37: Per conversation with Doc Roc on IRC: remove the ability to destroy the font emanating from the Paladin with Star Spark or Rebirth; this avoids the issue of where to allow teleportation of the character affected by a Star Spark destroying the last active font.

Page 37: Rebirth should clarify what happens if the ally revived using the ability has fewer than 50 maximum hit points—is he healed to his maximum hit points, or, as in Vitality Engine, does he get the rest as temporary HP?

Page 39: Here we have another method of notating feet: where the earlier abbreviation was of the form "30ft", here we have "30 ft." (including the period). Personally, I slightly prefer the former, and thus would recommend changing Tripwire and Fumigator; however, again, the important thing is to keep it consistent.

Page 40: The tail end of A Personal Touch from the previous page writes out "feet" in full again.

Page 40: It seems a little unusual for the bonuses in Kept Secret, Kept Safe to rise on levels where a new circle of the same track is not gained. Not a problem, per se, just noting it as a slight oddity.

Page 41: The Ricochet ability should clarify that the effect or attack being intercepted is nullified. (Simple text fix: replace "intercept" with "intercept and negate all effects of")

Page 41: The "starting at 11th level" in Missile Barrage does not have the ordinal properly superscripted; however, my recollection was that all the "at Xth level" notations within track abilities were being removed, making this moot.

Page 42: Howl of the North Wind mentions Ranger with capitalization; throughout the rest of the class description, it is generally mentioned uncapitalized.

Page 42: Scream of the Black Sky mentions [dazzled] without capitalization.

Page 42: Unless it is intended that Staccato Blastwave relies on the [Melee] range of the opponent, it would be both clearer and less wordy to revise the ending of the last sentence of the first paragraph to: "...to an enemy within [Melee] range."

Page 42: Bellow of the Deep Earth mentions the [pinned] status twice without capitalization. Also, this status is never mentioned or defined elsewhere.

Page 42: In Into the Trees, "world-mind" should either be capitalized or italicized to indicate that it is a spell.

That's all for today. A bit denser in this section :smallmad:

Doc Roc
2011-11-09, 04:49 PM
<school_girl>

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! (childsplaycharity.org/events/post/legend-rpg-launch)

</school_girl>

Analysis
2011-11-10, 10:02 AM
Minor nitpick; page 16, Homo sapiens, being a species systematic name, should by convention be italicized. :smallbiggrin:

Page 18; not sure if dwarves have different names by gender or not. If they do, maybe add more female dwarven names to the example list? Maybe using "braid" rather than "beard" as a general mechanism and corresponding hair fetish? Same argument may go for orcs, depending on how you want to portray them.

Claudius Maximus
2011-11-10, 04:36 PM
For that matter we should note whether or not the ladydwarves have beards. It's a matter of some contention for some people, or so I hear. :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, I found some errors I guess. There was a lot of overlap with Delvin but I tried to excise it all. Sorry if there's any left:
8: Fix critical hits. They shouldn’t double damage any more. Replace with +2*level damage.

8: Dodge bonuses. There are a number of problems here. We have references to dex mod and what sounds like armor max dex. Also, we might be scrapping it entirely? Not sure of the solution here.

8: Item Bonuses/Penalties: If you are theoretically able to apply two item penalties to a roll does the special mechanic here allow you to apply the smaller one, in contradiction to the normal rules? Might want to make it clear that the largest of each gets applied.

9: Natural Armor stacking rules seem unnecessary. It would work like that anyway. Also, is Natural Armor really even a thing?

9: Ability modifiers might not range from -5 to +5 at every instance of character generation, especially if you make a character at a level higher than one. Even if not, who’s to say there won’t be a way to get more than 20 at 1st?

10: Strength’s mention of increasing movement speed seems a bit cryptic. Might want to add “through interaction with the Athletics Skill” or something.

10: Intelligence mentions the 1-2 Int = animal thing. Will we actually have animals? Also, we have number of languages at character creation, but no method of acquiring them later that I know of.

10: Whole lot of capitalized class names up in here. Also, such terms as the names of saves and ability scores are capitalized. Not sure about those, but the classes at least should be decapitalized.

12: Capitalized barbarian in 2.1.1.

13: In section 2.2.3 we have reference to a level 4 feat slot. There is no such thing. I’d suggest changing the example from 4/5 to, say, 6/9.

14: Item selection: “wealth units?”

14: Capitalized barbarian under “Increase Hit Points and Saving Throw Bonuses”

18: “Unsettlingly” should be changed to “unsettling” in the elf description.

21: The box for humans is the first appearance of the term “stat.” Are we okay with using it, or should this be “Ability Score?”

24: The first sentence under 3.2.1.1 makes it sound like you get a track every three levels. Clarify that each track grants an ability at about that rate.

24: Capitalized class names.

24: Are there really tracks with prerequisites?

26: Capitalized track names.

27: Personally, I’d appreciate circle numbers for each ability in a track. Something like “1st Circle - Rage (Ex).” Also, I’m not completely sure we should keep the explicit mentions of levels you obtain abilities. They seem like they could be confusing for multiclassing.

28: Terrifying Presence uses Charisma. Is this supposed to change, or will we keep it?

28: How does Lesser Resilience work with fast healing or healing-over-time effects? Is it per instance of the effect, or per instance of healing (much stronger)?

28: An instance of Hard to Break, which we’re changing to 1/encounter and only one save. I think Fort is appropriate here.

28: Resilience - we have “Fast Healing” here as some kind of Term. It should probably get bracketed if it is one.

28: Strength Unbroken - should “ability damage” be “[Ability damage]?”

29: Monk needs two good saves instead of three.

29: In the monk fluff we have “a disciplined warrior-scholars.” Excise the “a.”

29: In Monks in Your Game we have “The monk can represent almost any kind of unarmed fighter, mystic or a wanderer sworn to poverty.” I think it might work better with either a comma between “mystic” and “or,” or by cutting the “a” before “wanderer.” Or some other rewrite. It just strikes me as weird right now.

30: Flurry (the ability) has Flurry (the maneuver) both capitalized and uncapitalized at different points. We didn’t have charge capitalized in the barbarian tracks. We should decide on a standard for combat maneuver capitalization.

30: Unarmed Strike has the track name capitalized.

30: Stunning Fist doesn’t have stun in brackets.

30: Weapon Master can be much more clear. When do you pick a weapon? Is the choice permanent? Is it a single weapon (this sword), or a type of weapon (all swords)? Also, make it more clear that you get the [Precision] damage with the weapon too instead of just the 1d8 base unarmed damage the monk gets. The catchall term for reach, disarm bonus, etc. is “weapon property.” We might reference that? It should be clear magical effects are kept, that weapon specific feats work, and so forth. Keep the reference to damage type.

30-31: After Image: We should rewrite to explicitly count its HP reduction as [HP reduction]. We should also reference what a mirror image actually is.

31: Type Five Deadly Venoms as [Poison] effect if [Poison] effects exist, which I’m not sure they do. We have a Poison spell that works 3.5-style, but I’m not sure if we have poison (with stuff like the 1-minute repeat) in the game as a general rule. There’s currently no [Poison] tag in any case. Make one if we want one, and perhaps revisit poisoney abilities if we don’t.

31: Fists of Fury: Full Attack is capitalized as some kind of fancy term. We should establish a standard for this, whether it get bracketed, lowercased, or left as-is. We might also want to reword this ability to account for non-movement uses of move actions. Specify that this ability comes up when you actually move, for one, and perhaps add a bit about how this interacts with [Teleportation] move actions like that one feat.

31: Touch of Death has a tag right in the name. This is the first I’ve seen of this practice. Also, does a successful save reduce total damage by half, or just the bonus damage? What type is the bonus damage, if any? Or does it adapt to the weapon of delivery?

31: White Lotus Palm: What happens if they don’t want to full attack? What happens if they can only make one attack normally? Can this stop a spellcaster with a ray attack? What about the same spellcaster casting Web or something? What constitutes an attack? Also, might we want to classify this as a [Bonus Attack]?

31: A Thousand Sudden Cuts might do with a rewrite making it an action you take right at the end of a full attack, if we want to make them consecutive. If not, and you can just take two at any point, we can just say that you can make a full attack as a swift action 1/encounter and leave a bunch of the current wording out.

31: Through the Clouds: Does the “flight speed” get replaced with some kind of tag? Ditto with the maneuverability. Basically, change this to match the new flight rules and guidelines (if we have them), if necessary. Also, shouldn’t this be Su? Then again we have Ex skill-based flight.

31: Empty Body: We have a daily limit here. Also, should more instances of “ethereal” get brackets? Finally, drop reference to monk level.

31: Daily limit on Path Between Worlds. Also, is there a limit on passengers? Finally, “Planeshift” is not actually a real spell or thing, and we don’t even ever define what a plane is, though we have a few references here and there.

31: Phoenix Reborn: Another daily.

32: Careful Sun’s Hard to Break should get hit by the Mettle errata. Not sure which save this is more appropriate for. Probably will? Perhaps a choice? Reckless Moon’s Evasion just gets the 1/encounter limit.

32: Diamond Soul: This might be fine as is, but if we have a real DR mechanic we might want to put this in those terms. I agree with Delvin in that we should define DR rules, whether in general or in each ability. I prefer the former.

32: Cloak of the Sun and Moon should explicitly state whether you have a free choice or if you have to match the choice in Careful Sun/Reckless Moon. Currently, you don’t, but it might not be completely clear to an inexperienced reader.

32: Should we have the Careful Sun ability in therms of immunity to [Binding] instead of FoM? Also, Careful Sun strikes me as Su.

32: Reckless Moon has Improved Evasion. How does that work in light of the Evasion nerf?

32: Reword Jade Heart to reference [Energy drain] and [Ability damage] effects.

32: Does Scales of Gems protect against rider effects, or just damage? This should be explicit.

34: Knowing abilities are NOT all Ex, and frankly shouldn’t be. Also, we have Ex as a superscript here. I’ve seen “Ex” and “(Ex)” as well. What is the standard?

35: Bastion track name is capitalized.

35: More tagged ability names, suggesting it’s intended. If so, we might have a lot of other abilities to tag. We should establish which tags merit title placement then.

35: How does Mercy interact with area effects that hurt more than one ally. Also, does it happen before the attached immediate action, after it, or what?

35: Any particular reason Grace is Su? It’s fine as-s but I thought the policy was to have as many Ex abilities as possible, and this seems justifiable enough.

35: Does Requital affect teleportation? Is it a [Binding] effect? How does it work with other penalties, like halvings? What happens if it reduces to 0? Can it reduce to 0?

35: The Light: does Blind Sight get a tag? Once again, let’s figure out a standard for this. Also, how, if at all, does it affect hiding?

35: Endurance seems to negate entire effects. A paladin can stop a nuke by deciding not to move out of the way. That’s the most epically insane thing ever, but should probably be changed.

35: Allegiance: if ability damage gets a tag it should appear here too.

35: Bastion references spell level a lot. Replace with circle? Also, “bastion” seems to be capitalized a lot.

35: The Armor uses a dodge bonus, which I’m not sure exists.

36: The Ready has a daily recharge.

36: Heroica: What kind of range are we talking? It should be defined even if it's infinite. While we're at it, what happens if you're on different planes?

36: The Blade and the Bow should have an action (even if free or non-) specified for the partner shift, and should require the partner to be willing.

36: Might and Guile should probably have colored names. Other choice-based abilities have had such a setup.

36: Does Might deal fire damage? If so, note it more explicitly. If not, make it more clear that it only resembles fire, before people start trying to interact with it like it’s fire. Also, I have difficulty seeing this as Ex.

36: The Just and the Unjust strikes me as Su.

36: The Quick and the Dead: Still wary of this. And how is it Ex?

36: With Your Shield or on It: Clarify how this doesn’t make you immortal (that once you’re both at -X, you both die).

36-37: Escalation: A bladeweave effect, which I suggest we keep a close eye on. How does this function from round to round? Does any hit at any time extend the [Battered] condition, or do the durations from different rounds overlap?

37: Fonts should be tagged as [Positive] if that’s what they are.

37: Does Dawnsign being Ex mean that the paladin-font is Ex? Or is it a passive Ex ability that improves/uses Su abilities? See how this is kind of weird?

37: It turns out we have no real rules for temporary HP. We should add some, because there are several abilities that employ it. It might deserve a bracket?

37: Star Spark: “and teleport that ally anywhere within range of a remaining font” might be better off as “and teleport the targeted ally anywhere within range of a remaining font.” Otherwise “that” lacks a real antecedent.

39: Professional Soldier: How easy is it to detect the traps? Are they overt effects? Besides the giant clouds and stuff, naturally. Also, what about actually trapping a battlefield? We should either include rules for setting up an ambush with these traps, or explicitly denying the ability to do so.

39-40: Is there a limit on how many times you can drag people with A Personal Touch? As it is it might be interpreted as granting you the permanent ability to pull them around with a swift.

40: Razorpods are one word in the ability name but two words at one point in the text. Also, why do they deal exactly 13 damage? Is it supposed to be 1/level? How do you determine where they move? Are they autonomous? Do you control them?

40: This page has both tagged and untagged ranges. What is the correct standard? We should change all ranges in the doc to match the correct one.

40: Remote mines: These have a cube area. I thought we weren’t using those?

40: The Sound of Cannon: We might want to have a max range on this.

40: Daggers and Bolts features several capitalized track names. Also, are we keeping the name A Reign of Arrows? I seem to remember someone objecting to it. Might want to fix the daggers and bolts section to more clearly address multiclassing both into and out of the track. Nix the reference to 2nd level in particular.

40: Dead-eye and Return Fire have unbracketed “flat-footed” conditions.

40: How does Return Fire’s attack work exactly? Is it with your usual ranged weapon? Does it then get all the magical effects/bonuses of a normal ranged attack? Is the CL damage in addition to, or in place of normal damage?

41: Missile Barrage: is the AoE calculated from you or from the enemy? If you target the ground, do you automatically hit?

41: Is A Crashing of Heaven a [Death] effect? If so, it should be tagged as such, possibly in the title if that’s what we’re doing. This also has a number of the same issues as the monk [Death] effect - what if the attack would deal enough damage to kill them normally? Would a successful save mean that adding a [Death] effect to your attack saved the target’s life? Is the target [Battered] if your attack misses?

41: What’s up with the strength save option for Thus Always Unto? Also, some untagged terms in Thus Always Unto’s description. Finally, is there a limit on this ability? Because as it is you can use it every turn, possibly even 2-3 times with extra swifts.

41: I’ll reiterate the old complaint that [Chain Components] are not components of chains.

41: So, we have “attack actions?” Let’s try to avoid the 3.5 debacle on what exactly an “attack” is. We should by some means differentiate between “attack” in the sense of “a hostile action” (used for determining what breaks Invisibility, for example), “attack” in the sense of “a standard action that lets you swing a weapon a certain number of times” and “attack” in the sense of “each individual swing in that last example.” I feel like this will probably save us headaches eventually.

42: Add a space between Cadence and Howl of the North Wind. At first I thought Howl was an elaboration on the ability to use Cadence as a finisher (like it changed name when doing so or something).

42: Several “the Ranger”’s on this page. Lowercase them and/or replace with appropriate forms of “you” when applicable.

42: Iron magi uses Strength. We should either change it to Dex or give the ranger the option to use Strength as KOM by taking iron magi, like how the rogue tracks work.

42: Beloved of the Dirae has a number of minor problems, like untagged words and not requiring LoE. Is “electrical damage” the term we’re using for that? This might be a good time to mention that we don’t seem top have any standard on when an effect ends in a round. Are we using 3.5’s “right before you act again” definition? If so, then the enemies might not technically be in the effect when the ranger’s turn begins.

42: Staccato Blastwave uses strength and dex. Is this staying, or will it be replaced by some KOM and/or KDM formula? Also, capitalize the [Melee].

42: Does Mastery of Law need to be Su? Also, it might deserve a [Bonus Attack] tag.

42: Fix Evasion ability in Dive for Cover.

42: Into the Trees should be Su.

43: It Has Been an Honor should be updated to reflect mettle/evasion errata.

43: Ghost should be updated to reflect the stealth changes (stuff like the Awareness Defense) and should probably have provisions for special senses like Ghostwise Sight. Also, does Ghost confer immunity to scrying and such?

43: A Masterpiece in Violence should clearly prohibit you from punching a sniper to death, or otherwise violating normal attack parameters like range.

45: Is it okay to suddenly not use Ex tags in this section due to the general “assume Ex” rule? I think that might be a slightly confusing sudden departure from the book’s normal format.

46: When to Run should probably have rules for how this sudden movement affects incoming attacks. Do you escape them? Can the enemy still hit you if you’re still in range? Etc. In fact we should probably get some explicit “stack” rules in effect.

46: Slayer’s Sense should reference the [Concealed] condition. Do we need to mention Stealth? We don’t have 3.5’s concealment requirement. Unless Stealth grants total concealment?

46: Should Felling Strike’s dex-based trip attempt be KOM-based instead?

46: Is Sweeping Scythe supposed to be limited to one attack per person, or can you go bananas on one guy’s face? I can see this getting a good 14+ attacks by the way.

47: Once More! might deserve a [Bonus Attack] tag, though if the point of that tag is to prevent stacking, it would seem to conflict with the ability. And what’s with “a standard action to make a single attack?” Does it force you to sacrifice your other attacks in a full attack?

47: Kick Him While He’s Down: Would this attack be a [Bonus Attack]?

47: How exactly does the timing of Panache work? If they try to run away, do you get to move and hit them before they move, or before they move out of range? Or are you screwed if they move out of your reach?

47: Weren’t we going to change the name of Never Gonna Say Goodbye?

47-48 We should employ [On fire] tags in Smells Like Victory. We don’t have [On fire] defined but I’m pretty sure it’s supposed to exist.

Claudius Maximus
2011-11-11, 01:53 AM
Skipped ahead to feats, at the request of Doc Roc:
88: Baptized in Rage has a normal save DC but the defense against it is a strength check. Overall, this is considerably less likely to succeed than any save. Also, this requires [Hunted], which I am to understand is no longer a thing.

88: I don't really see a reason for the level requirements on Exit, Stage Left or Feign Death. Feign Death also has a reference to a feint maneuver, which I don't believe exists. Even if it did, it would not just deny Dex to AC. Finally, change reference to effect level to effect circle and correct the un-superscripted ordinals.

88: In Floating feat, you have "twelfth level" written out and 3rd level with no superscript. Also, why is it 3rd level only? I'd suggest changing it to 3rd level minimum instead (since there's no reason to take it at 1st anyway). This feat currently allows one to trade out Iconic and Racial feats. Is that intended? If not, please add prohibitory language.

89: In the last sentence of Guild Initiation's Benefit, I think "those feats" works better than "these feats."

89: Spirited Strength has the ability score names both capitalized and uncapitalized. The text reading "gain a +2 bonus to strength and lasts for..." should have that "and" replaced with a relative pronoun. I'm not sure about the rest of the wording. Are we really using "buff?"

89: Into the Breach has a "40 feet" and an unbracketed range. More importantly, what's a "single attack action?" One attack? A full attack? Any offensive action? I'll reiterate my call for attack term standardization.

89: Uncapitalized constitution in Livers Need Not Apply.

89: Multiclass Flexibility references a section number. Does this apply to non-DC ability-based things like Smiting's damage bonuses or the fast healing from Battle's Tempering? I think you should explicitly talk about this.

89: My Shadow Grows Long has untagged ranges and non-superscripted ordinals.

89: Does the 6th level version of Objective Analysis have a shorter "detailed information" period than the 3rd level version? I think the whole thing could be worded better.

90: Run Magic theoretically lets you use a 1st circle slot to lay a 7th circle spell effect trap. Add an "of the appropriate spell level" or something. We also have "10 feet" written out.

90: When Seven Drunken Immortals heals an ally, does it use your level or the ally's level?

90: How does Slow and Steady operate when you are hit with more than one [Prone] effect in a round? I'm not sure if something like this would stack with itself by RAW. Also I think we might as well allow this to be a choice, on the off chance someone would rather be [Prone] than slow. Finally, why is this 1st only?

90: Summon Mote has a size category bracketed. I'm not sure I've seen that elsewhere. Nor do I remember rules for the tiny size. This feat also contains inconsistent distance notation and capitalization of the word "mote." When you gain the ability to siphon HP, how much/how little can you do? Are you able to destroy it with this cannibalism? Is its ability to take your place for spells intended to apply to non-spell effects like SP or SU attacks? What if the ability is not damaging (it says it takes damage for you)? This ability triggers after you know if an attack "hits" - what about e.g. things that require a save? Blindsight needs a tag, and we might want to better define its ability to pass through things.

90: The Bigger They Are has unbracketed size categories, though I am unsire they deserve brackets. I think we should change the requirement to "Small size or smaller" in any case, if it turns out we make a diminutive or fine category. Does the bonus damage only apply to weaponish attacks, or would spells and such benefit as well? Once again we suffer from attack ambiguity.

90: The Earth Cracks's Benefit section contains a lot of fluff. Is that supposed to be in the description instead? This actually applies to a lot of feats, now that I think about it. Anyway, we also have "feet"s and un-superscripted ordinals here.

90-91: The Left Hand of Destruction has the following: "As a move action, you may put up an aura that causes healing effects that occur within 15 feet of you are delayed by one round." Fix the grammar up here, replacing that "are" with a "to be" or separating these clauses, or something. Also, if "healing effects" are a recognizable mechanical term, should they be bracketed? This is also on a daily timer, and has "feet" written out.

91: The Right Hand of Creation has a daily timer and "feet."

91: The Sky Empties needs brackets for its teleportation and has "feet." Does the charge work on all teleportation abilities, or just the one provided by the feat. Currently, I think it's all. Might want to clarify.

91: The Smell of Napalm needs some rewording and some [Max HP Reduction] tags. It actually looks like we don't have any such tags, which is weird because we definitely had some real rules for these mechanics.

91: The Sun Grows Dim should have darkvision bracketed. Also, can you scout with the servitors? List that as a suggested use if so, because that sounds pretty effective. As for the servitors, how big are they, exactly? How substantial? Can they be attacked? If so, what relevant stats do they get? Can they slide under doors and suchlike, or do they have to move around more normally?

91: Truly Bad People needs to be changed if we're dropping [Hunted]. Does the effect hit everyone adjacent to you, or just the attacker, or someone of your choice?

91-100: What's a "current action" for the purposes of True Names? A turn? A standard/move/etc? One attack from a full attack? We also have ordinals written out here.

92: I'm guessing Wings of War probably needs to be updated with the new flight rules. The mention of this being Ex suddenly brings into question whether those other feats should be tagged. A lot of these seem Su.

92: The fast healing in You Will Falter might need to be tagged if FH gets a tag.
That's it for general feats. I might do the rest later.

DelvinAnaris
2011-11-11, 03:30 PM
Continued again.

I will not comment on the continuing instances of starting levels being mentioned for each track feature. I agree with Claudius Maximus that it would be better to simply clearly denote each feature as "Xth Circle", and eliminate all reference to level except in the table.

Page 44: The first sentence here is very poorly constructed. "No two rogues are quite the same, and some can show a quite incredible variety." would be a better, though still not ideal, way of wording it. It also sounds a little odd to talk about tracks here as if you're introducing them as a concept for the first time.

Page 45: The normal mechanics for taking 10 are never explained.

Page 45-6: When to Hold first says "per 4 levels", then says "per 4 character levels." It would be best (though in this case not truly necessary) to standardize this. ("per X character levels" seems to be the more common, so it should probably be the one standardized upon)

Page 46: Sneak Attack's mention of the Battle Fatigue ability would be better replaced with a reference to the 7th circle.

Page 47: So with Panache, you cannot move less than 10 feet?

Page 48: Those who succeed in their Reflex saves are knocked [Prone], but those who fail are [Dazed]? The conditions are similarly (though not identically) debilitating, and it seems very odd that people who don't manage to get clear are blown 30 feet and just stagger around on their feet.

Page 49: Since the spelling of the race is "Orc", shouldn't the spelling of the adjective form be "orcish"?

Page 49: I Am Ten Ninjas description: "compliment" should be "complement". (Supernatural abilities add to and complete the stealth training, they don't tell it it looks pretty.)

Page 50: Void Disciple has [ethereal] bracketed and uncapitalized once, and unbracketed and uncapitalized twice.

Page 50: Improvisation should clarify that it can be given to you or your ally as a swift.

Page 50: Gift of Gab mentions a deflection bonus, but those do not exist at present. (Or at least, they're not defined in this version of the doc. I can't remember if you wanted to move away from dodge toward deflection, or vice versa.)

Page 50: Better Lucky and Good: So when in the round do you remove the condition from yourself if you don't have a turn?

Page 50: Changing the Odds mentions numbers of Fortune's Friend abilities; this should be changed to Fortune's Friend circles.

Page 50: Roll With It should have the end of its wording changed to either "...spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability" or "...spell, or spell-like or supernatural ability."

Page 52-55: All the Sage abilities that reference any KAM simply say "Key Ability Modifier", without specifying KOM or KDM.

Page 52-55: The Sage abilities also have a dizzying array of different ways of notating numbers of feet. These should be standardized, preferably on an abbreviated form.

Page 53: The instance of this in Devastating Barrage is also adjacent to an unnecessarily capitalized "Character Level".

Page 53: Also, the instance in Voice of Devastation simply refers to "your level".

Page 53: Further, the instance in Dread Wave refers to "the sage's" KAM

Page 53: Hammerfall is capitalized within its own description, while Dread Wave is not.

Page 53: Hammerfall also has Character Level capitalized.

Page 53: The wording of Red and Grey Hymn would be better rearranged as "any ally of your choice within 100ft". Similarly for Crimson and Silver Hymn. And what the heck is up with [other ally]?

Page 54: Bitter News is the only place other than its own title where Black Tidings is capitalized.

Page 54: The runes in Stem the Tide are not named in the ability itself, but are called "Shielding Runes", with capitalization, in "Shields, Brace!"

Page 54: Swift As Thought should clarify that this activation of Healing Burst does not count against the once per round limit. Or, as the case may be, that it does.

Page 55: Is there a particular reason that the Arcane Secrets are not in the order they are granted?

Page 55: The Arcane Secrets still use "SP" as their superscript, which, to anyone who has never seen 3ed rulebooks, would immediately imply "SPell", not "Spell-Like Ability".

Page 55: The text above the Arcane Secrets a) could be replaced by stating that they all have [Medium] range, and b) is contradicted by over half the Secrets themselves.

Page 55: The ranges listed in the Secrets are not bracketed.

Page 55: Is there any reason beyond flavour that it matters what school the Secrets' effects are?

Page 55: Lung-Breaker has 2 uncapitalized bracketed conditions ([concealed] and [nauseated]).

Page 55: Revelation has 2 uncapitalized bracketed conditions ([ethereal] and [incorporeal]).

More later.

Nohwl
2011-11-11, 04:07 PM
how does blacksmith interact with armor bonuses or deflection bonuses granted by a track? does it increase those?

is there a limit to how much extra hp you can get or how many charges you can store with some of the new magic items?

immaculate hilt gives a +5 bonus to hit, should this be a +4?

how exactly does blaze bolter work? is it just damage = 4*kom or would i add 2d6 + kom for it being a main weapon to the 4*kom? should it get a +2 to hit for being a greater weapon?

Doc Roc
2011-11-11, 07:40 PM
how does blacksmith interact with armor bonuses or deflection bonuses granted by a track? does it increase those?

is there a limit to how much extra hp you can get or how many charges you can store with some of the new magic items?

immaculate hilt gives a +5 bonus to hit, should this be a +4?

how exactly does blaze bolter work? is it just damage = 4*kom or would i add 2d6 + kom for it being a main weapon to the 4*kom? should it get a +2 to hit for being a greater weapon?

1) Probably should.
2) Not intended to be. But there's a limit from the standpoint of probability. We might need to cap it.
3)I'd like to test it at +5, but it probably needs to be +4
4)It's not intended to be a weapon, but we need to rework it to make its function more obvious.

Claudius Maximus
2011-11-11, 11:12 PM
More feat notes:
92: The intro for feats says that players can only have one such feat. Shouldn't this be PCs instead? Also, none of these feats seem to have a Prerequisites line, which is unusual since previous feats at least had "Prerequisites: None."

92: A Light against Shadow has "feet." The reference to no shadowy illumination calls to mind the fact that we do not have light rules, like a general rule about shadowy illumination at double the range of a light source. We should probably get those. There is also some problematic language: "...reducing the maximum HP of all enemies in the radiance by 2 per character level and must make a fortitude save..." That really doesn't work right. We should rewrite that and include a max HP reduction tag.

92: Big Damn Heroes might need more clear information about activating it. For example, can you do so when unable to take actions? I'm almost positive the answer is yes, but it is still slightly unclear.

92: I Am Not Left-Handed seems satisfactory, but might we want to introduce the focus system in a general sense prior to this?

93: We may want language in Justice, Blind addressing abilities that let you ignore or remove the [Blinded] condition. Also, the feat calls it [Blind] while the summary calls it [Blinded]. More seriously, the feat only removes penalties for ranged attacks, leaving you with a number of serious drawbacks from being blind, such as half speed and -2 AC (probably more, since it makes you basically [Flat-footed] too). Also, does blindness cause Ghostwise Sight to fail too? GWS talks about thing being "visible" or "invisible" to you and [Blinded] says that you can't see and that "Checks and activities that rely on vision automatically fail." This feat also contains distance and ordinal discrepancies, and attack-term issues.

93: Acrobatics needs to be capitalized in Last Son of a Dead World. Though is memory serves the whole thing needs to be redone. I'll repeat a call for standardized rules for Fast Healing and DR.

93: My Name Is War should probably have more clear timing rules. How does it work to have you copy an ability "as" someone else, or even you, is using it? We have at least one other simultaneous action immediate, and I think we should either expunge them or some up with a clear RAW way to handle them. Also, when you copy an ability's effects, can you choose a new area/target or is it where the original was? If the latter, what if you're outside its normal range? How does this interact with scene/encounter limits? The text also seems to alternate between "ability" and "power" when referring to the thing you copy.

93: On A Pale Horse triggers on a "whenever" and then has an action and an encounter limit. You should have language saying that you may trigger the effect. The feat uses [Cower] but the condition is called [Cowering].

93: Strike Down uses "electric damage" while Beloved of the Dirae and The Sky Grows Dim use "electrical damage." We should decide upon a standard.

93: Something of a Traditionalist has "hitpoint' as one word. Does the charge-imbue take a swift still? You should clarify that.

94: And My Axe! currently allows non-axe attacks to boost axe damage. Is this intended?

94: Cataphract may need to be changed/removed depending on what the deal is with Ride and mounted combat.

94: Possible attack definition issues in Fancy Footwork?

94: A Hell of a Thing needs max HP reduction tags. Does sustaining it eat standard actions in subsequent rounds?

94: Kensai has a typo - "oppoent." This feat currently works with ranged weapons, which might be odd considering its melee-based prerequisites.

95: Under its current wording, Master of Swordplay might be able to grant feats beyond things like And My Axe! I'm not sure this is really a problem considering you still need prereqs, but I'm still going to point it out.

95: Musketeer could probably use a change from Dex to KOM.

95: Perfect Defense's ability to stop a charge at [I]any point might get weird. Can you stop it between swings of a pounce full attack? What about after they hit you but before they deal damage? Or after they deal damage but before certain abilities trigger? And so forth. When canceling power attack/deadly aim, do you negate the whole attack? If you only negate the modifiers, do you negate the penalties and the bonuses, just the bonuses, or what? Also, power attack and deadly aim are uncapitalized here, but capitalized in Musketeer and other feats.

95: Why does Runic Gunknight require By Will Sustained? This feat has "As a free action before your attack..." and then says "On your first attack of each round..." This is pretty confusing. When does this activate? Furthermore, does this feat apply rider effects to the hits? With various imbues this could get a single-target effect on a while bunch of people. This may be intended but I'm bringing it up in case it isn't. Either way, I think it should be more explicit about what happens to the struck people. How much damage do they take? Can they all be crit at once? Etc.

95: Shadow Blink uses "opportunity attack" whereas I'm pretty sure I've seen "attack of opportunity" mentioned elsewhere. Does Shadow Blink let you get through LoE-blocking effects? What about LoS-blockers? If so, what about shunting? Also, should we have a tag for AoOs?

95: Spectacular Beats references "Monk unarmed damage." I think this should be Discipline of the Crane or at least Unarmed Strike, the actual name of the thing. It might also make sense to require Weapon Master if you're going to be applying unarmed damage to other weapons. Not sure here though. Anyway, the feat references penalties for using improvised weapons, but I'm not aware of any. At the moment, someone with this feat can break anything in the universe by smacking someone eight times with it. I'm also not sure why this has a 3rd level requirement.

96: Tell Them, Still Angry needs a tag for its HP reduction.

96: The Scattering Wind needs an activation time (even if non-action). It also still uses "sweet."

96: How does the 5th level ability of The Terrible Swift Lash work? This is basically another simultaneous action and attack definition issue. Also, the 10th level ability is weird because its target is dependent upon another targeting in the future. When you make a guy prone, are you suddenly forced to attack him next? What if he escapes? Will you be forced to track him down and whip him before being able to attack anyone else again? Why is this ability even immediate?

96: This Is a Knife is a [Critical Effect], which I do not believe exists. It should probably get an [Ability Damage] tag. What's up with the stacking rules on an instance of ability damage? How does that work with in-combat healing? Is it a matter of only ever being able to deal 8 con damage per person in an encounter, or is a person only allowed to go 8 below their normal? There's a difference.

96: I think To Iron Married should have its prerequisite changed to KOM, or dropped.

96: We might want to clarify the first ability of To Pierce the Heavens. Is it possible to move out of the impassible area once you elect to not be pushed? If you do get pushed, how do we determine direction?

96: Why is Unstoppable Assault a [Combat] feat if Into the Breach is not? Another "feet."

96: Way of the Gun has another mention of "Monk Unarmed Damage." I think this one should definitely require Weapon Master.

Realms of Chaos
2011-11-12, 12:55 PM
2 Quick notes come to mind off of the top of my head:

1. The few pages of notes describing your design philosophy while making this system could probably be boiled down to a small aside within the actual text (no need to spend time advertising the virtues of this system to someone who has already purchased it, after all). Instead, I'd put that full explanation into a free PDF so that others can see whether or not this design philosophy appeals to them or not.

2. The multiclassing system with tracks looks wierd. While the concept of exchanging one track for another looks awesome, it allows for some pretty intense mechanical lopsidedness. If someone ends up with the second track from each of three classes, for example, they start the game at level 1 with absolutely no class features and only get anything at 2nd level and every 3 levels afterwards. Even putting aside the extreme focus on one area that this type of multiclassing creates, it creates long periods of stagnation punctuated with extreme jumps ahead during character advancement (and could potentially cause class advancement to end after 18th level, which is its own problem). The section discussing multiclassing doesn't even discuss this issue so I guess that I'm asking if this has been considered.

Edit: the ability to swap out one track from a class and get a non-equivalent track from another class seems to make quite a few traps, including those mentioned above. In a level 1 one-shot, for example, not trading in your second path seems a bit absurd. The ability to do an all-out build and potentially get 4 redundant tracks at the cost of magic items that should be shoring up your lack of versatility also seems pretty darn dangerous.

Claudius Maximus
2011-11-12, 03:03 PM
2. The multiclassing system with tracks looks wierd. While the concept of exchanging one track for another looks awesome, it allows for some pretty intense mechanical lopsidedness. If someone ends up with the second track from each of three classes, for example, they start the game at level 1 with absolutely no class features and only get anything at 2nd level and every 3 levels afterwards. Even putting aside the extreme focus on one area that this type of multiclassing creates, it creates long periods of stagnation punctuated with extreme jumps ahead during character advancement (and could potentially cause class advancement to end after 18th level, which is its own problem). The section discussing multiclassing doesn't even discuss this issue so I guess that I'm asking if this has been considered.

Edit: the ability to swap out one track from a class and get a non-equivalent track from another class seems to make quite a few traps, including those mentioned above. In a level 1 one-shot, for example, not trading in your second path seems a bit absurd. The ability to do an all-out build and potentially get 4 redundant tracks at the cost of magic items that should be shoring up your lack of versatility also seems pretty darn dangerous.

When you multiclass, the new track shifts to use the progression of the one you traded out. So you will always have three tracks at three different progressions, resulting in one ability per level (unless you have full buy-in, in which case you get more).

For this reason, we try to balance things by circle, so an ability you gain at 3rd level should always be roughly as good as an ability you gain at 1st, because they are both 1st circle and thus could be swapped.

Claudius Maximus
2011-11-12, 10:39 PM
A new section has been added, which should address the multiclassing issue more clearly:

When you multiclass, you select a single track from another class (or from the list of additional tracks in Chapter 4) and replace one of your default tracks with it. You gain the features of your new track at the same levels you would have gained the features of the track that was replaced.

On that note, I guess I should evaluate this new section:
12: You refer to table 2-2 in some places on this page, but you also call it by name in others. This doesn't seem to be a very serious issue, but it is a discrepancy.

13: There's a class table here that lists the skills of each class. If we're changing the tactician skill system, make sure to note it here as well.

13: In the Advanced Character Creation section, it might be better to note that this approach is but one of many for making a fleshed-out character. I've certainly never used it, for example.

13: There's an asterisk attached to Long-lost King of a Great City that is apparently not explained or accompanied by a footnote or anything.

13: "Wizzard" may or may not be a typo.

13: Capitalized "Paladin's Virtue" track.

14: There's a statement that the class stat table is "below" when it is in fact on the last page.

14: The quote I used above comes from this page, but by some readings it applies only to the free multiclassing option. We may want to either reiterate it for the other options, or establish a general rule about having one track of each progression on a non-FBi character. I think we might want a general rule, personally.

14: Capitalized class names, especially under Multiclassing.

15: There's a reference to "Serpent Discipline track" here. Its name is actually "Discipline of the Serpent." Also an example of a capitalized track name, of which there are many on this page.

16: The Random Ability Generation suggestion seems needlessly antagonistic to those who prefer such a method. I think it would be better to just note the potential for imbalance or low scores than to say it's best for less serious games.

16: The feat tree sentence seems to be held up slightly too long by the little aside explaining what they are. I think it may be better to have a different setup to explain them, like a new sentence.

16: In Item Selection, I'm not sure suggesting against magic armor really has a place here, though the point that you don't need to only choose magical items could still be made.

Back to feats:
97: I think we could do with a new [Skill] feat introduction.

97: Anatomical Targeteer has an uncapitalized [Bleeding].

97: Cloaked Spellcasting references caster level. I'm not sure we have that. I think it would be better with a spellcasting track requirement. Should this be opposed by the Awareness Defense? Also, I'm not sure we have mechanics for identifying or not identifying spells. Under some readings a success means that the opponent is completely unable to figure out what your spell is, forever. This sounds like it is more intended to just be unidentified during casting.

97: How often can an opponent who has failed a save against Charm attempt to leave a social encounter? They have to save to do so, but is one failure enough to keep them there forever?

97: For Confusion, are we comfortable with someone being [Confused] for a whole encounter? Also, using it in a social encounter counts as Intimidate or Diplomacy. Why not Bluff?

97: Should Deft Strike be opposed by the Awareness Defense?

98: [Sickened] tag uncapitalized in Dread Secret. Why does this require 5th level? Why not at least 6th, if we're giving it a level requirement? Also, this feat shares a name with a Tactical Insight ability, and does basically the same thing. One of those should probably change to some extent.

98: Fish in the Water grants a swim speed, for which there are no rules. I have no idea if it should be tagged or not.

98: Is Flyby Attack only supposed to work while flying? Currently it works for all forms of movement. This, as with all spring attack mechanics, should probably have explicit interactions with [Teleport] moves and other odd movement options.

98: Ghost Hunter needs capitalized tags. How does this gel with the Awareness Defense? Should this boost that instead?

98: Monkey Business has the same issues as Fish in the Water.

98: Positive Energy Specialist just seems really minor compared to a lot of other feats.

98: Terrifying Shout references a "Demoralizing" use of the Intimidate skill. In the Skill section, we don't call the in-combat use by that name.

98-99: Terror gives 24 hour immunity on a successful save. Should it last a scene instead? Should uses of this feat be [Fear] effects as well as [Mind-affecting]?

99: We might want general rules for [Racial] feats. Can characters not of the named race take them, if they meet all the prerequisites (it can happen, e.g. Elven War Dance)?

99: A 1st level prerequisite means nothing unless it's 1st only. A few [Racial] feats have this.

99: Battleforged references upgrading and enhancing its equipment. There don't seem to be any rules for that. Can you swap out your natural stuff for magic items of the same type? Also, do the permanent weapons make one or more hands useless? I assume not but a main weapon is stated to occupy both hands, and you can't be disarmed of this one. Finally, Battleforged just says it requires the Sentient Construct type, but all the other feats say "track and type." In any case creature types are not discussed anywhere. They are just mentioned in passing in the racial track intro.

99: Draconic Blood and the undead tracks also reference creature type.

99: Draconic Blood uses Strength in its damage formula. Replace with KOM.

99: Should Elven War Dance require the Elf race? By RAW, this feat grants the extra attack and move speed all the time, instead of during rages. Also, it talks about gaining Powerful Rage at 4th like that's a given. I think that should be reworded.

99: Ghoul uses Strength in its damage formulas. Replace with KOM.

99: Untagged ranges in Lich. Does chill touch work with a weapon, or is it its own specialized attack? If the former, is the damage in addition to that of a normal hit?

100: Does Skeleton Champion give both its bonuses, at different points? Or do you choose one maneuver to buff? I don't like the wording on the last sentence.

100: Skinjob references skill checks to ID abilities. These are not clearly discussed in the document. Like Battleforged, this lacks a track requirement.

100: Vampire uses Strength in its damage formula. Replace with KOM.

Doc Roc
2011-11-14, 05:08 AM
A new section has been added, which should address the multiclassing issue more clearly:


On that note, I guess I should evaluate this new section:
12: You refer to table 2-2 in some places on this page, but you also call it by name in others. This doesn't seem to be a very serious issue, but it is a discrepancy.

13: There's a class table here that lists the skills of each class. If we're changing the tactician skill system, make sure to note it here as well.

13: In the Advanced Character Creation section, it might be better to note that this approach is but one of many for making a fleshed-out character. I've certainly never used it, for example.

13: There's an asterisk attached to Long-lost King of a Great City that is apparently not explained or accompanied by a footnote or anything.

13: "Wizzard" may or may not be a typo.

13: Capitalized "Paladin's Virtue" track.

14: There's a statement that the class stat table is "below" when it is in fact on the last page.

14: The quote I used above comes from this page, but by some readings it applies only to the free multiclassing option. We may want to either reiterate it for the other options, or establish a general rule about having one track of each progression on a non-FBi character. I think we might want a general rule, personally.

14: Capitalized class names, especially under Multiclassing.

15: There's a reference to "Serpent Discipline track" here. Its name is actually "Discipline of the Serpent." Also an example of a capitalized track name, of which there are many on this page.

16: The Random Ability Generation suggestion seems needlessly antagonistic to those who prefer such a method. I think it would be better to just note the potential for imbalance or low scores than to say it's best for less serious games.

16: The feat tree sentence seems to be held up slightly too long by the little aside explaining what they are. I think it may be better to have a different setup to explain them, like a new sentence.

16: In Item Selection, I'm not sure suggesting against magic armor really has a place here, though the point that you don't need to only choose magical items could still be made.

Back to feats:
97: I think we could do with a new [Skill] feat introduction.

97: Anatomical Targeteer has an uncapitalized [Bleeding].

97: Cloaked Spellcasting references caster level. I'm not sure we have that. I think it would be better with a spellcasting track requirement. Should this be opposed by the Awareness Defense? Also, I'm not sure we have mechanics for identifying or not identifying spells. Under some readings a success means that the opponent is completely unable to figure out what your spell is, forever. This sounds like it is more intended to just be unidentified during casting.

97: How often can an opponent who has failed a save against Charm attempt to leave a social encounter? They have to save to do so, but is one failure enough to keep them there forever?

97: For Confusion, are we comfortable with someone being [Confused] for a whole encounter? Also, using it in a social encounter counts as Intimidate or Diplomacy. Why not Bluff?

97: Should Deft Strike be opposed by the Awareness Defense?

98: [Sickened] tag uncapitalized in Dread Secret. Why does this require 5th level? Why not at least 6th, if we're giving it a level requirement? Also, this feat shares a name with a Tactical Insight ability, and does basically the same thing. One of those should probably change to some extent.

98: Fish in the Water grants a swim speed, for which there are no rules. I have no idea if it should be tagged or not.

98: Is Flyby Attack only supposed to work while flying? Currently it works for all forms of movement. This, as with all spring attack mechanics, should probably have explicit interactions with [Teleport] moves and other odd movement options.

98: Ghost Hunter needs capitalized tags. How does this gel with the Awareness Defense? Should this boost that instead?

98: Monkey Business has the same issues as Fish in the Water.

98: Positive Energy Specialist just seems really minor compared to a lot of other feats.

98: Terrifying Shout references a "Demoralizing" use of the Intimidate skill. In the Skill section, we don't call the in-combat use by that name.

98-99: Terror gives 24 hour immunity on a successful save. Should it last a scene instead? Should uses of this feat be [Fear] effects as well as [Mind-affecting]?

99: We might want general rules for [Racial] feats. Can characters not of the named race take them, if they meet all the prerequisites (it can happen, e.g. Elven War Dance)?

99: A 1st level prerequisite means nothing unless it's 1st only. A few [Racial] feats have this.

99: Battleforged references upgrading and enhancing its equipment. There don't seem to be any rules for that. Can you swap out your natural stuff for magic items of the same type? Also, do the permanent weapons make one or more hands useless? I assume not but a main weapon is stated to occupy both hands, and you can't be disarmed of this one. Finally, Battleforged just says it requires the Sentient Construct type, but all the other feats say "track and type." In any case creature types are not discussed anywhere. They are just mentioned in passing in the racial track intro.

99: Draconic Blood and the undead tracks also reference creature type.

99: Draconic Blood uses Strength in its damage formula. Replace with KOM.

99: Should Elven War Dance require the Elf race? By RAW, this feat grants the extra attack and move speed all the time, instead of during rages. Also, it talks about gaining Powerful Rage at 4th like that's a given. I think that should be reworded.

99: Ghoul uses Strength in its damage formulas. Replace with KOM.

99: Untagged ranges in Lich. Does chill touch work with a weapon, or is it its own specialized attack? If the former, is the damage in addition to that of a normal hit?

100: Does Skeleton Champion give both its bonuses, at different points? Or do you choose one maneuver to buff? I don't like the wording on the last sentence.

100: Skinjob references skill checks to ID abilities. These are not clearly discussed in the document. Like Battleforged, this lacks a track requirement.

100: Vampire uses Strength in its damage formula. Replace with KOM.

Lots of good catches there. Really appreciate this.

jiriku
2011-11-14, 08:02 PM
I assume there's a Table of Contents and a Glossary coming along at some point.

page 67

The second sentence of the Sword ability is phrased in passive voice ("...this ability can be discharged..."), and it's unclear whether the ability can be discharged by the true mage or by the recipient of the Sword ability. It's also unclear from what point the [Close] range should be measured. Assuming it's the ally in both cases, I'd suggest phrasing the sentence as "In addition, after hitting a foe, the ally can select an opponent within [Close] range and discharge Sword as a free action to reduce the opponent's AC by one point for every circle of True Mage you possess."

Note that I also corrected a second error there, which is that the track is referred to simply as "Mage" rather than "True Mage" in that sentence.

The Sword's discharge ability lacks a duration.

The second sentence of the Shield ability has some unnecessary commas, and should also be rephrased from passive voice. I recommend "The ally can discharge this ability as a free action to create a [Close] range burst surrounding the ally in which opponents take KAM + CL damage."

In the Sceptre description, Awareness should be capitalized.

There is a singular/plural form disagreement in "That ally recieves a +2 bonus to a social skill of their choice...."

Given Legend's heavy use of tags, I wonder if "social skills" shouldn't be written as "[Social] skills".

Since the Engine Glyph is a personal-range effect that can only be used once per scene and ends at the conclusion of the scene, it should be unnecessary to state that "You may have only one Engine Glyph active at a time..."

In the Theurgic Secret description, The first sentence should probably read "You can cast a single spell you know once per encounter."

The illusion of sameness provided by Arcane Preparation is somewhat confusing. I think you're saying that creatures within Close range are considered "within" the glyph's area, that creatures within Medium range can see those within the glyph normally, that creatures within Long range (but not within Medium Range), cannot see those within the glyph's area, but can detect them with other senses, and that creatures beyond Long range cannot detect those within the glyph by any means. I think that's it, but it's very awkwardly phrased and open to misinterpretation. In particular, you use "the area within Close range of the center of the glyph", "the glyph", and "the area outside the glyph" interchangeably throughout the description. I'd suggest creating a label for the affected area, such as "the glyph circle", and using that consistently throughout the description.

Glyph is capitalized inconsistently throughout the Arcane Preparation description.

Short, Medium and Long range aren't properly capitalized and enclosed in brackets throughout the Arcane Preparation description.

Flickerdart
2011-11-15, 10:35 PM
There's both a table of contents and a glossary already, though both will be overhauled.

jiriku
2011-11-15, 10:43 PM
Odd. I couldn't find either. Perhaps I don't have the latest version. Must download the file again.

Doc Roc
2011-11-18, 03:48 AM
Two days until total content freeze.

Flickerdart
2011-11-18, 03:35 PM
Odd. I couldn't find either. Perhaps I don't have the latest version. Must download the file again.
Table of Contents is on page 3 of the document (and is present in the Bookmarks section of any PDF reader). The glossary is on page 114.

jiriku
2011-11-18, 09:43 PM
Table of Contents is on page 3 of the document (and is present in the Bookmarks section of any PDF reader). The glossary is on page 114.

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab24/gallopinggiraffes/Legend.jpg http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab24/gallopinggiraffes/hump-dar-3.jpg

Flickerdart
2011-11-19, 02:38 AM
What I meant is that the ToC and the Bookmarks have exactly the same content, so if you can see the bookmarks, you're not missing anything. Including the table of contents within itself would be silly.

New document going up as we speak with Flight and Stealth, as well as some formatting changes. If you spot anything out of place (table subtitles like to fall into the middle of the gutter when I add new pages) let me know. It might take a little while to get mirrored to the link you guys have though.

Nohwl
2011-11-19, 11:27 AM
i don't know if this was mentioned, but elf has melee finesse as a bonus feat and it doesn't look like it exists anymore.

Flickerdart
2011-11-19, 10:51 PM
A huge pile of content just hit! New feats, spells, introduction, plus a pretty cool racial track based on beating people up.

Note: Right now, the table of contents is wrong. If it happens to be right, I urge you to delete some pages at random so that it is wrong again.

Doc Roc
2011-11-20, 06:10 AM
It's hard to believe, but we've got less than 19 hours to go until core is wrapped.

Nohwl
2011-11-20, 10:23 AM
the 5th circle ability of utter brute is called unnatural, it looks like it should be called unspeakable.

if you build a character using these tracks, you can really improve your melee range.

utter brute
true mage
rage
15 + 5 reach (use a spear) + 5 rage (large size) + 10 majesty + 5 unnatural + 10 unspeakable = 50

to pierce the heavens doubles reach--100 foot melee range at level 13.

also utter brute has strength as its kdm, wasn't using rage to boost kdm bad?

DelvinAnaris
2011-11-20, 11:57 AM
Proofreading the new version of the doc now. I'm going through the things I noticed earlier in the thread first, and bringing them forward to this post if nothing has been done about them.

Page 9 8: Size Modifier mentions "grapple checks," but Legend apparently does not have these (at least not yet).

Page 9: Under Key Ability Modifiers, there should be a comma after "(Attack Bonus)".

Page 9: Table 1-1 has no — in the box for modifier 0, spell level 7.

Page 10 9: The wording of Strength is a bit odd. It first says that "Strength measures your character's" this, then that "Strength increases your character's" that. This seems to be talking about Strength in two quite different ways—first as a statistic, a measurement, and second as more of a concept. Simplest way I can see to fix this would be to change the "increases" to something more along the lines of "affects" or "has to do with".

Page 10 9: Strength is listed as being "also the KOM for"; the "also" is not included in any of the other stats, and should probably be left out for Strength as well.

Page 10: Is it necessary to state that "every creature has" a Wisdom and Charisma score? Surely every creature has all 6 stats?

Page 13 17: Under Ability Selection, neither the "1st" nor the "7th" have the ordinal properly superscripted.

Page 13 17: Similarly, under Race, Class, and Skill Selection, "1st" appears twice once without proper superscripting.

Page 13 17: Under the second Feat Selection, Table 2-1 2 is referred to as "Table: Character Advancement".

Page 14 17: Since the introduction to the Leveling Up section makes clear that you do not need to worry about missing prerequisites due to the order of choosing your bonuses for level up, is it really necessary to present each one with "increase X now"? It seems somewhat strange.

Page 16 20: The first sentence of the last paragraph in the first column reiterates part of the previous paragraph, and appears to now be entirely redundant.

Page 17 21: Unclear whether the top of the second column is meant to be a new paragraph or not. If it is, it should probably be indented, since it is not the first paragraph of a section.

Page 17 21: In the last paragraph, it mentions that "most strongholds ban" booze-fighters; is this meant to be "most stoneholds"?

Page 18 22: The inclusion of "Ebenezer" as a first name here is quite incongruous when compared with the other example dwarf names given. (and yes, I get the joke, I just don't think I really wanted it)

Page 19 23: Didn't we rename Chatty Bugger?

Page 20 24: "...ruled by a reasonably benevolent monarch, in some cases, is not even a gnome." There should be a "who" between "monarch" and the comma following it.

Page 20 24: The semicolon in the second sentence of "Halfling Society" should be a comma.

Page 23 27: "Fourth, give the race another thematically ability"—needs an "appropriate" in there. Or lose the "thematically"; either way works.

Page 24 28: Third paragraph, the list of classes there should be set off by long dashes or parenthesized. Commas are not appropriate here.

Page 28 32: Heart of Fury indicates that temporary HP are gained at the beginning of each encounter "as Greater Rage"; I believe this should be "as Mighty Rage", thus maintaining the recently-gained 2 extra temporary HP.

Page 28 32: Whirlwind and Shiva's Charge both say "These attacks do not threaten critical hits." I presume this means that attacks made with these abilities can never be critical hits, but that's not really clear. "These attacks cannot be critical hits, regardless of the attack die roll" would be a much clearer phrasing.

Page 28 32: Terrifying Presence mentions the "shaken" condition twice once, but does not capitalize and bracket it either time. It also does not properly format the first mention of "fear effects".

Page 29 34: Monk fluff, last line, "to go beyond what his humanly possible." Should be "is", obviously.

Page 29 34: Monks in Your Game—the wording's a bit off, "almost any kind of unarmed fighter, mystic, or a wanderer sworn to poverty"—either the "a" before "wanderer" should be removed, or one should be added before "mystic".

Page 29 34: Multiclassing Tips—particularly since True Mage is not an actual class, it should be capitalized here.

Page 30 35: The three two ordinals in the first two paragraphs second paragraph of this page are not properly superscripted ("1st-level", "11th-level", and "beyond 1st").

Page 30-31 36: "Mirror image" is never defined more clearly than its mention here in After-image. It is therefore difficult to understand how to determine what damage should be seen as being dealt to mirror images...

Page 31 36: If there are Five Deadly Venoms, why do you only get to choose from 2?

Page 31 36: Touch of Death has the [Death] descriptor right up front, highlighted in red between the ability name and its type indicator. Other abilities with bracketed descriptors have so far just indicated at the end of the description "this is a [descriptor] ability". Personally, I slightly favor the latter approach, but either would be fine if consistently applied.

Page 31 36: Planeshift (in Path Between Worlds) is also not fully defined anywhere. This particularly makes the "rather than the usual [miss chance]" confusing and ambiguous.

Page 31 36: True Resurrection (in Phoenix Reborn) is also not fully defined anywhere.

Page 32 37: For Diamond Soul, is there a lower limit on damage reduced this way? (Some might try to argue that it could push damage below 0 as written...) (Doc Roc has muttered about needing proper DR rules, and making use of them here)

Page 35 40: For Requital, is there a lower limit on the move speed this can put opponents at?

Page 35 40: The wording of Endurance is slightly confusing. If it is truly just the first failed save in an encounter that has no effect, then a better wording would be simply: "The first time in each encounter that you fail a saving throw..."

Page 35 40: There is still inconsistency in how "feet" are being notated. I think it would be preferable to abbreviate it in The Shield, much as it is in Knowing.

Page 35 40: The Mantle should note that it is the first successful (or otherwise successful) dispel attempt that is canceled.

Page 36 41: The Ready says that the pool refreshes daily. I thought we were trying to stamp out dailies?

Page 36 41: Given that The Blade and the Bow requires that your partner be within sight to be chosen, it might be wise to note that the bonuses persist even when outside LoS of each other.

Page 36 41: The Guile choice of Of Might and Guile does not specify that the partner must be within Medium range to use the ability, as Might does, but I presume it to be the case. It should be specified.

Page 36 41: "Critical threat range" is not, so far as I can tell, ever defined.

Page 36 41: If you and your partner both have The Quick and the Dead, does that mean that neither of you can be targeted by LoS effects? (Doc Roc mentioned there having been a fix for this, but not recalling it; my suggestion would be that in such a case, one of you will be hit, determined by a 1d2)

Page 37 42: In War Engine, "charisma" is mentioned uncapitalized.

Page 37 42: In Font, "feet" is again written out, multiple times, rather than being abbreviated. (Still.)

Page 37 42: Per conversation with Doc Roc on IRC: remove the ability to destroy the font emanating from the Paladin with Star Spark or Rebirth; this avoids the issue of where to allow teleportation of the character affected by a Star Spark destroying the last active font.

Page 37 42: Rebirth should clarify what happens if the ally revived using the ability has fewer than 50 maximum hit points—is he healed to his maximum hit points, or, as in Vitality Engine, does he get the rest as temporary HP?

Page 39 44: Here we have another method of notating feet: where the earlier abbreviation was of the form "30ft", here we have "30 ft." (including the period). Personally, I slightly prefer the former, and thus would recommend changing Tripwire and Fumigator; however, again, the important thing is to keep it consistent.

Page 40 45: The tail end of A Personal Touch from the previous page writes out "feet" in full again.

Page 40 45: It seems a little unusual for the bonuses in Kept Secret, Kept Safe to rise on levels where a new circle of the same track is not gained. Not a problem, per se, just noting it as a slight oddity.

Page 41 46: The Ricochet ability should clarify that the effect or attack being intercepted is nullified. (Simple text fix: replace "intercept" with "intercept and negate all effects of")

Page 42 47: Howl of the North Wind mentions Ranger with capitalization; throughout the rest of the class description, it is generally mentioned uncapitalized.

Page 42 47: Bellow of the Deep Earth mentions the [pinned] status twice without capitalization. Also, this status is never mentioned or defined elsewhere.

Page 42 47: In Into the Trees, "world-mind" should either be capitalized or italicized to indicate that it is a spell.

Page 44 49: The first sentence here is very poorly constructed. "No two rogues are quite the same, and some can show a quite incredible variety." would be a better, though still not ideal, way of wording it.

Page 45 50: The normal mechanics for taking 10 are never explained.

Page 45-6 50-1: When to Hold first says "per 4 levels", then says "per 4 character levels." It would be best (though in this case not truly necessary) to standardize this. ("per X character levels" seems to be the more common, so it should probably be the one standardized upon)

Page 47 52: So with Panache, you cannot move less than 10 feet?

Page 48 53: Those who succeed in their Reflex saves are knocked [Prone], but those who fail are [Dazed]? The conditions are similarly (though not identically) debilitating, and it seems very odd that people who don't manage to get clear are blown 30 feet and just stagger around on their feet.

Page 49 54: I Am Ten Ninjas description: "compliment" should be "complement". (Supernatural abilities add to and complete the stealth training, they don't tell it it looks pretty.)

Page 50 55: Void Disciple has [ethereal] bracketed and uncapitalized once, and unbracketed and uncapitalized twice.

Page 50 55: Improvisation should clarify that it can be given to you or your ally as a swift.

Page 50 55: Better Lucky and Good: So when in the round do you remove the condition from yourself if you don't have a turn?

Page 50 55: Changing the Odds mentions numbers of Fortune's Friend abilities; this should be changed to Fortune's Friend circles.

Page 50 55: Roll With It should have the end of its wording changed to either "...spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability" or "...spell, or spell-like or supernatural ability."

Page 52-55 57-60: All the Sage abilities that reference any KAM simply say "Key Ability Modifier", without specifying KOM or KDM.

Page 52-55 57-60: The Sage abilities also have a dizzying array of different ways of notating numbers of feet. These should be standardized, preferably on an abbreviated form.

Page 53 58: The instance of this in Devastating Barrage is also adjacent to an unnecessarily capitalized "Character Level".

Page 53 58: Also, the instance in Voice of Devastation simply refers to "your level".

Page 53 58: Further, the instance in Dread Wave refers to "the sage's" KAM

Page 53 58: Hammerfall is capitalized within its own description, while Dread Wave is not.

Page 53 58: Hammerfall also has Character Level capitalized.

Page 53 58: The wording of Red and Grey Hymn would be better rearranged as "any ally of your choice within 100ft". Similarly for Crimson and Silver Hymn. And what the heck is up with [other ally]?

Page 54 59: Bitter News is the only place other than its own title where Black Tidings is capitalized.

Page 54 59: The runes in Stem the Tide are not named in the ability itself, but are called "Shielding Runes", with capitalization, in "Shields, Brace!"

Page 54 59: Swift As Thought should clarify that this activation of Healing Burst does not count against the once per round limit. Or, as the case may be, that it does.

Page 55 60: Is there a particular reason that the Arcane Secrets are not in the order they are granted?

Page 55 60: The Arcane Secrets still use "SP" as their superscript, which, to anyone who has never seen 3ed rulebooks, would immediately imply "SPell", not "Spell-Like Ability".

Page 55 60: The text above the Arcane Secrets a) could be replaced by stating that they all have [Medium] range, and b) is contradicted by over half the Secrets themselves.

Page 55 60: The ranges listed in the Secrets are not bracketed.

Page 55 60: Is there any reason beyond flavour that it matters what school the Secrets' effects are?

Page 55 60: Lung-Breaker has 2 uncapitalized bracketed conditions ([concealed] and [nauseated]).

Page 55 60: Revelation has 2 uncapitalized bracketed conditions ([ethereal] and [incorporeal]).

Now some new stuff I noticed while going through those:

Page 11: There is no space between the Fortitude paragraph and the Reflex paragraph.

Page 11: The BAB table is squashed up against the Awareness section above it, thus making it look very much as if it's meant to be an Awareness table. If it could be floated down to the bottom of the page, and the marginal table name put next to it instead of up at the top of the page, that would vastly increase comprehensibility.

Page 17: Under Item Selection and Increase Ability Scores, Table 2-2 is referred to as Table 2-1.

Page 28: The second column ends three lines above the first column, despite the fact that it is the middle of a sentence. The first three lines of the first column on the next page should be moved down here.

Page 41: In The Quick and the Dead, "Partner" is erroneously capitalized.

I hope to have more time to do new proofreading later today and over the next few days.

DelvinAnaris
2011-11-20, 02:37 PM
Aaaaand I'm back!

Page 61: Multiclassing tips has Bastion capitalized but Force of Will not.

Page 62: Incantation and Imbue Spell both use the "SP" superscript for "Spell-Like Ability", which is confusing to those who are not familiar with 3.x D&D.

Page 62+: There are more "feet" problems here.

Page 62: Incantation uses Wis modifier rather than KOM. Twice.

Page 62: Incantation does not specify a range. Combined with requiring no ranged attack roll for the healing type, that seems to indicate that it can heal any ally anywhere in Hallow.

Page 62: Presumably, to Imbue a spell, you must first know it. However, this is not specified.

Page 62: Shaman's Presence uses Wis modifier rather than KOM. (And actually, might this not work better with KDM?)

Page 63: Shallow Grave is once per day.

Page 63: Under Spellcasting, the save DC uses Wis rather than KOM. Also, it says "the shaman's", and my understanding is that we want to use "your" instead. It also uses Wis rather than KOM for bonus spells per scene.

Page 63: The third paragraph of Spellcasting is double-indented.

Page 65: I'm almost certain there's an extra space between "of" and "combat" at the end of the Psychological Warfare description.

Page 66: Dread Secret references both dazed and stunned without bracketing or capitalization.

Page 66: Surgical Precision, if I'm reading it right, could be more simply and clearly worded as follows:

Once per encounter, as a swift action, you can change the shape of a spell you cast with the burst, line, cone, or spread descriptors to be whatever shape you desire, as long as it affects no more squares than the original shape did. All these squares must be within a circle with the diameter equal to the total number of squares affected. The spell must be shaped in the same turn that you cast it (i.e., you must cast the spell with the standard action immediately following your swift action use).

If I'm not reading it right, it could still use a reword to clarify.

Page 66: Bait and Switch references "10 feet per class level". (Also, "feet" should be abbreviated, here and in Early Warning and Dweomerbreaker.)

Page 66: Dweomerbreaker does not specify what should happen if there are multiple unknown effects of the highest circle on the target. Simple fix: "a random effect of the highest circle is dispelled."

Page 66: Checkmate italicizes "imprison" as if it were a spell; however, it is not, and is not mentioned anywhere else. However, it does appear to be fully defined here, so this is (probably) purely a formatting issue.

Page 66: Similar to the issue with shaman spells, the save DC for tactician spells is listed as "10 + 1/2 the tactician’s character level + the tactician’s Intelligence modifier"—should be "your level" and "your KOM". Also, bonus spells in the next ¶ should reference KOM.

Page 67: Calling it "the Shaman's unique track" sounds a bit odd. First of all, I understand that we're not capitalizing class names. Second, why not just refer to the "Shaman's Path track"?

Page 67-8: Elementalist always references "feet" spelled out.

Page 67: Elemental Burst says it can be done "at will". This would seem to imply that it can be done as often as I want, whenever I want, effectively making Elementalist an insta-killer at 1st level. (Or at least, 1st circle.)

Page 67: Elemental Burst references Close range without brackets.

Page 67: Forced Vulnerability references [vulnerable] uncapitalized. Also, it does not appear to be defined anywhere. Neither is "resistance", which should probably be bracketed and capitalized.

...Actually, that's not 100% true. The spell "resist elements" has a reasonable definition of both, but it's not the place I'd think to look for that. [Resistance] and [Vulnerability] should both have proper definitions along with the other conditions.

Page 67: While I'm sure everyone reading it will understand what a baseball is, it's a bit of an odd size referent for Elemental Ball. Also, Long range is referenced without brackets.

Page 68: Both in Elemental Boost and Elemental Wall, it should specify whether or not subsequent incidences of the effect add to the duration of the condition.

Page 68: Elemental Shield references Close range unbracketed.

Page 68: Evoker's Wrath references Medium range unbracketed.

Page 68: Kill the "munchkin" in Evoker's Wrath.

Page 68: Conjurer's Insidious Doom references [darkvision] and [ghostwise sight] without capitalization.

Page 68: The wording of Conjurer's Insidious Doom implies, at the end, that the penalties are cumulative. However, this is not clearly stated.

Page 69: Front-Line Assemblage has "10 ft."

Page 69: Front-Line Assemblage mentions Circle (of the track) capitalized.

Page 69: "It bears mention that multiple allied Mechanist Savants..." should have the first few words cut, to simply "Multiple allies Mechanist Savants..."

Page 69: The correct plural of "automaton" is "automata". (for example, "The Littlest Automatons" mentions it several times, including in the title.)

Page 69: While it is correct that [Medium] is capitalized in The Littlest Automatons, Range does not need to be capitalized.

Page 69: "...but you can raise an additional automaton at 6th, 12th, and 18th." Should append "level", and properly superscript the ordinals.

Page 69: Trust in Steam does not capitalize Assemblage.

Page 69: The Consuming Spark should clarify whether Hunger automata extend the Assemblage as well.

Page 70: Giants in Iron needs to specify who chooses the effect dispelled by the Decimation automaton's immolation.

Page 70: The description of the Decimation automaton's ability as a bolt seems at odds with the 25ft radius area of effect given. I'm not sure what the intent is here, so I can't suggest how to clarify the text.

More later.

Claudius Maximus
2011-11-22, 08:24 PM
A look at the new feats:
90: When I came across Drink Deep my first impression was that to "consume" a drink meant using it, instead of drinking it. Looking at other drinking feats, we use "consume" and "expend" and only the latter fuels abilities. I think we might want to change "consume" to "imbibe" to reduce confusion.

91: Glyphweave Adept references Knowledge Arcana but I think the skill is just called Arcana.

92: Do multiple party members with Recon allow for multiple 5-steps each? assume so but you might want to make that explicit. Also, are we okay with using the term "party member?" Why not just "ally?" And is there any range on this?

95: Blacksmith has an instance of "armour." That spelling is not used elsewhere.

97: For Meteor Crush, what does "fighting unarmed" mean as a prerequisite? Can't anyone do that? If you want it to be for monks, require Discipline of the Serpent track. If anyone can take this and Bhudda's Palm people out of the air, then leave that prereq out and specify in its text that it only works with unarmed attacks.

100: Create Teleportation Circle mentions dimension lock, but the spell is called dimensional lock.

101: Can an Earthshaper Journeyman exit from the same face he entered?

101: Journeyman Healer contains another reference to party.

102: Should there be an action cost for Lightbender Adept?

102: Master Healer should specify whether or not you can hand out the draughts. Its use as part of a move action makes me wonder about that action type - can you use the ability in question from any square through which you move in that round? I frankly think you should, as it allows people to rush to an ally's side with a draught to save them in one action.

102: Some concerns about the Safekeeper feats. How long does a Safekeeper's pocket remain after he has been slain? Is the world dotted with open pockets, as Safekeepers slowly die off and turn the universe into Swiss cheese? Safekeeper Magus talks about how air replenishes. Adept has no such text. What are the conditions in Adept's pocket? Stranding people in the pocket seems like a very good strategy. How does the opening work? Is a square transformed into a portal, and anyone who enters it finds themselves in the pocket, or what? Is there any way to escape a pocket, or enter it forcefully? I think we discussed a time limit for unwilling creatures. Whatever happened to that?

And a quick review of the new Utter Brute track:

Unforgiving says "Triggered abilities with no action cost may be used instead." This is somewhat unclear. Perhaps specify "resurrection abilities" or something and in place of instead have something like "however, you do not gain the extra action from Unforgiving in that case."

Unrelenting should probably be optional.

Unbreakable should probably have an "or" between [Slowed] and [Fear].

Unstoppable is labeled 5th circle. Change to 7th. Specify that you still die at -(Constitution) HP. Are there any direction-based parameters for the push effect? We actually might want to standardize rules for push effects, like 4e did. Also, the push should be optional.

DelvinAnaris
2011-11-23, 10:48 AM
Cont'd.

Page 74: Brutal Kick says you fly with "maneuverability(good)". First of all, that's not the standard way we're denoting maneuverability (should just be "with good maneuverability"). Second of all, I don't think we actually have rules for different flight maneuverability classes written... Just had a good long talk with Doc Roc on IRC, and the decision was made to nix maneuverability as a thing. Everyone's got good maneuverability now.

Page 74: Just for clarity, I would change the wording at the end of Unnatural Resilience to say "Further, all three bonuses...".

Page 75: Vigilante's Courage does not capitalize fortitude.

Page 75: The last ¶ of Racial Tracks refers to "Legend's Monster Guide". Previously, this has been referred to as "the Legend Monster Guide".

That's all for now.

Dr.Orpheus
2011-11-23, 11:52 AM
DelvinAnaris you got some mad editing skills.

DelvinAnaris
2011-11-23, 11:44 PM
Sticking in a few more while I have the chance.

Page 77: Vitality mentions "hp" uncapitalized.

Page 77: In Sentient Construct's statbox, "exhaustion" and "fatigue" should both be bracketed and capitalized.

Page 78: I presume that Sensor Suite needs [glamer] to be capitalized.

Page 78: Spell Disruption has "by a hit points"; should be "point".

Page 78: Undead has the same statbox problem as Sentient Construct.

Page 79: Vampire's 1st-circle ability lacks a period on its last sentence.

Page 80: In Lord of the Damned, the last sentence could be better phrased as, "All cohorts require explicit permission of the GM to be acquired."

Page 80: Netherworld Grasp needs to capitalize [stun] and [paralyze].

Page 80: Mummy Rot says that it inflicts 2d4 "ability damage," but does not specify what ability.

Page 80: I presume Mummy Rot should capitalize the bracketed [dispelling].

Page 80: It should probably be clarified in Heartstopper whether it always, at-will, or never affects healing effects initiated by allies.

Bedtime now.

Doc Roc
2011-11-24, 05:15 AM
DelvinAnaris you got some mad editing skills.

He is truly a bro.

Redshirt Army
2011-11-28, 08:08 PM
I haven't read all of the above posts, so if this is a repeat, I apologize.

On page 178, in the Legend blurb, encounter is used in the non-game sense, but still has the [Encounter] setup.

Person_Man
2011-12-19, 09:21 AM
Please forgive my terrible ignorance, but could someone describe the game for me? The "About" section of the website states that it's designed around the Rule of Cool, and that sounds nifty. But what does it actually mean? Is it basically 3.5 with homebrew core classes and new feats, spells, and items (Pathfinder, 3.5 Reborn)? 3.5 in a radical new setting (Iron Kingdoms, Star Wars Saga Edition)? 3.5 with streamlined rules (True20, Castles & Crusades)? Or is it something else?

DelvinAnaris
2011-12-19, 09:37 AM
Please forgive my terrible ignorance, but could someone describe the game for me? The "About" section of the website states that it's designed around the Rule of Cool, and that sounds nifty. But what does it actually mean? Is it basically 3.5 with homebrew core classes and new feats, spells, and items (Pathfinder, 3.5 Reborn)? 3.5 in a radical new setting (Iron Kingdoms, Star Wars Saga Edition)? 3.5 with streamlined rules (True20, Castles & Crusades)? Or is it something else?

It's not 3.5 at all. Its origins are in 3.5, but Legend is a completely different game. Please excuse my somewhat rough characterization of Legend:

The most defining mechanic is the tracks system for classes: a track is a set of 7 abilities that you gain at certain levels. Each class grants a character 3 tracks (plus the class chassis, which defines things like your saving throw and BAB progression), and defines what levels you gain each ability at. Some classes have more than 3 to choose from, but in the end you only get 3 (usually—see below). Tracks define pretty much everything about your character's ability progression, including spellcasting. The only exceptions are feats and items (which tend to be, individually, approximately as strong as track features of the appropriate level. No junk items in Legend.).

Multiclassing in this system is almost absurdly simple—you trade one track of the base class for any other track in the game, with a very few restrictions. You gain the abilities of the new track at the levels you would have gained the abilities in the old one.

Through Guild Initiation, you can trade away a second track of your base class if you wish.

There's also an option called Full Buy-In, whereby you trade in most of your item progression for a fourth track. (But remember, items are pretty impressive in Legend, and swapping them out for a fourth track is not at all a no-brainer...)

These mechanics make it possible to generate nearly any character archetype you want—subject to one important limitation.

Characters in Legend are all epic.

You're not going to be able to create a simple mundane brawler or swordsman who gains no superhuman abilities, for the simple reason that allowing this would bring back the Linear Fighters, Quadratic Wizards problem.

This is what it means by being designed around the Rule of Cool. No matter what character you put together, by the time you're 10th level or so, you'll almost certainly either be teleporting or flying, and by the time you're 20th, there's a good chance that if you die, you'll be coming back the next day.

Draz74
2011-12-19, 12:54 PM
Anyone still on this thread should realize that the game has now moved from Alpha to Beta, and correspondingly that the most active discussion of the game is now on the 3.5e forum rather than the Homebrew forum.


You're not going to be able to create a simple mundane brawler or swordsman who gains no superhuman abilities, for the simple reason that allowing this would bring back the Linear Fighters, Quadratic Wizards problem.

Well, such mundane character concepts are still possible at low levels. But in the whole 20-level scheme, this is correct.