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Gnorman
2011-11-01, 06:28 AM
The Noble

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dd_gallery/dd1/Garl_p70.jpg

HD: d8
Class Skills: Appraise, Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Intimidate, Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Listen, Perform, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Speak Language, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Tumble, Use Magic Device
Skill Points: 6 + Int per level (4x at 1st)

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|+0|+2|+2|+0|Archetype, Silver Tongue

2nd|+1|+3|+3|+0|Lesser Archetype Power

3rd|+2|+3|+3|+1|Gold Standard

4th|+3|+4|+4|+1|Moderate Archetype Power

5th|+3|+4|+4|+1|Commanding Presence

6th|+4|+5|+5|+2|Greater Archetype Power, Impel[/table]

Proficiencies: The noble is proficient with light armor, medium armor, and shields. He is proficient with simple weapons and martial weapons.

Archetype: At 1st level, the noble chooses an archetype from the list below. He gains the advantages and abilities of the archetype at the appropriate levels, as indicated in the list. Once made, this choice is final.

Silver Tongue: At 1st level, the noble may take 10 on any Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate check. He may also make rushed Diplomacy checks without taking a penalty to the roll, and demoralize foes as a move action. In addition, intimidation attempts made by the noble do not reduce the target's disposition to them afterwards.

Lesser Archetype Power: At 2nd level, the noble gains the appropriate power for his archetype.

Gold Standard: At 3rd level, the noble gains a 10% discount on all purchases. In addition, goods and services that costs 50 gold pieces or less (before discount) are considered free (they may not be resold, however), with the exception of magical and alchemical items. The noble may also identify magic items with a successful Appraise check, with the DC equal to 20, plus one for every 500 gp of the price of the item in question (so a magic item that costs 1,000 gp would require a DC of 22 for example).

Moderate Archetype Power: At 4th level, the noble gains the appropriate power for his archetype.

Commanding Presence: As a full-round action, the noble may emit an aura of command that lasts for one round - all allies within 30 feet of the noble act as if affected by a Good Hope spell, gain 5 temporary HP (which disappear at the start of the next round), and gain a ten foot bonus to their base land speed. This is an extraordinary mind-affecting effect.

Greater Archetype Power: At 6th level, the noble gains the appropriate power for his archetype.

Impel: Three times per day, as a standard action, the noble may allow one ally within 30 feet to take a full round's worth of actions. The ally acts immediately after the action, breaking initiative order if necessary.


Archetypes:

Dilettante
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/rod_gallery/86316.jpg

Lesser Archetype Power: At 2nd level, a dilettante may choose from three focuses at the beginning of each day: Combat Focus, Stealth Focus, or Magic Focus. Combat Focus gives him a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls, one bonus fighter feat (chosen at focus selection), and a +2 bonus to Climb, Jump, and Swim checks. Stealth focus gives him Trapfinding, +1d6 sneak attack damage, and a +2 bonus to Disable Device, Open Lock, and Search checks. Magic Focus allows him to cast a small amount of spells - he may cast cantrips or 1st-level spells from one mage class (excepting archetype bonus spells). He may only cast a number of spell levels per day equal to his Charisma modifier (cantrips count as 1/2 a spell level). He may choose a different mage class each day. His caster level is equal to half his class level, and the DC of his spells are equal to 10 + the spell level + half his Charisma modifier. He also gains a +2 bonus to Concentration, Knowledge (arcana), and Spellcraft checks.
Moderate Archetype Power: A dilletante gains a bonus on all skills he has no ranks in equal to half his class level, and is considered to be trained in their use.
Greater Archetype Power: A dilletante's foci improve: he gains a +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls while in Combat Focus, +2d6 sneak attack damage while in Stealth Focus, and may cast 2nd-level spells while in Magic Focus (though he is still limited to a number of spell levels equal to his Charisma modifier). His skill bonuses from his foci increase to +4. In addition, he may change his focus once per day.


Duelist
http://images.wikia.com/nwn2/images/c/c8/Duelist.jpg

Lesser Archetype Power: Once per round as a free action, a duelist may make one melee attack at his highest base attack bonus against an opponent that has just missed him with a melee attack. This ability only applies while the duelist is wielding a one-handed weapon with nothing in his off hand. In addition, a duelist may add his Charisma modifier to his armor class as long as he wears light or no armor and does not equip a shield.
Moderate Archetype Power: Once per encounter, a duelist can designate a specific opponent as his chosen foe. The duelist gains a bonus to attack rolls and damage equal to half his Charisma modifier (minimum of +1) against the chosen foe for as long as he remains in melee range with that foe (if the opponent moves away, the duelist has one round to close the gap before the bonuses disappear), If the chosen foe does not target him in kind refuses to engage him in combat, these bonuses are instead equal to the duelist's full Charisma modifier.
Greater Archetype Power: If a duelist succeeds on a feint check against his chosen foe, his next melee attack has triple the chance to cause a critical hit. This ability only applies while the duelist is wielding a one-handed weapon with nothing in his off hand. In addition, a duelist's Commanding Presence ability now affects himself as well.


Patrician
http://thecityofkings.wikispaces.com/file/view/89536.jpg/41415511/89536.jpg

Lesser Archetype Power: If a patrician fails a Diplomacy check, he may instantly retry the roll at -5 penalty. Even if the second check fails, the disposition of the target cannot be reduced below unfriendly (unless already hostile).
Moderate Archetype Power: Once per round, as a standard action, a patrician may make an opposed Diplomacy check against any opponent with an intelligence score of 3 or higher within hearing distance. If the patrician succeeds in this check, the opponent is unable to take standard actions for one round. The patrician may not use this ability if silenced or if he does not have a language in common with the target. If the target is attacked before its turn comes around, the effect is broken and it may take standard actions as normal.
Greater Archetype Power: Before attacking a patrician, any opponent with a intelligence score of 3 or higher must make a Will save, with the DC equal to 10 + half the patrician's HD + the patrician's Charisma modifier. If the opponent fails the save, it must pick a new target - if no other valid opponents are within reach, the attack fails. In addition, a patrician may use Commanding Presence as a move action.


Tyrant
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cor_gallery/89575.jpg

Lesser Archetype Power: A tyrant gains the ability to summon minions. He may summon standard goblins or orcs at 2nd level, gnolls or bugbears at 4th level, and ogres or worgs at 6th level (alternatively, he may summon any humanoid, monstrous humanoid, or giant from the Monster Manual with a CR no greater than half his level). Minions have the statistics, abilities, and equipment of a typical member of their race, as put forth in the Monster Manual, and act on the tyrant's initiative. A tyrant may command his minions as a free action, but may only give them complicated commands if he speaks the same language as they do - if not, minions may only attack the nearest opponent to the best of their ability. Minions of any kind only have one hit point, but they do not suffer partial or half damage from spells or effects on a successful save. The maximum number of minions a tyrant may have summoned at any one time is equal to his Charisma modifier (maximum of five), and he may summon one into an unoccupied square within ten feet of himself as a full-round action.
Moderate Archetype Power: A tyrant may now summon a more substantial minion, a henchman. Summoning a henchman takes one minute of uninterrupted concentration (after which it appears in the closest unoccupied square to the tyrant), and a tyrant may only have one henchman at any one time, but the henchman remains indefinitely until killed or dismissed. Once summoned, a henchman will accompany the tyrant and follow his commands faithfully - commanding a henchman is a free action. While a henchman is summoned, a tyrant may not summon minions, and any minions in existence disappear upon the summoning of the henchman. Henchmen may not use magical items or wield magical equipment they do not possess when summoned. A henchman may be dismissed as a free action, allowing the tyrant to summon minions again if desired. If a henchman is killed, a tyrant may not summon another until the next day (he may even summon the henchman that was killed again, or at least a suspiciously similar one with the same name and abilities). A tyrant may summon any henchman on the given list below, though he may only summon one specific one each day. In addition, all minions gain half his Intimidate modifier as bonus hit points.
Greater Archetype Power: As long as a tyrant has a living minion or henchman within ten feet, any attacks directed against the tyrant may be directed against his minions or henchman instead. In addition, all minions and henchmen receive the tyrant's Charisma modifier as a bonus to armor class and Will saves.

Henchmen
Bushi, Hobgoblin Reaver
Medium Humanoid (Goblinoid)
Hit Dice: 2d10+4 (19 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 20 ft.
Armor Class: 19 (+6 banded armor, +2 heavy steel shield, +1 Dex), touch 11, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+5
Attack: Longsword +4 melee (1d8+2)
Full Attack: Longsword +4 melee (1d8+2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft. / 5 ft.
Special Attacks: -----
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft.
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +1, Will +2
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 14
Skills: Climb +7, Heal +4, Intimidate +10, Jump +7, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +6, Move Silently +5
Feats: Skill Focus (Intimidate)
Environment: Dark fortresses or villainous lairs
Organization: Minion-based
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Any Evil
Advancement: -----
Level Adjustment: -----

Bushi is proficient with light, medium, and heavy armor as well as shields. He is proficient with all simple and martial weapons.

Conviction: Bushi is immune to fear, charm, compulsion, and possession. Allies within 30 feet of him gain +4 to saves against those same effects.

Steely-Eyed Glare: Bushi may demoralize an opponent as a swift action.

Catsbane, Gnoll Sniper
Medium Humanoid (Gnoll)
Hit Dice: 2d8+4 (16 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft.
Armor Class: 16 (+3 studded leather, +2 Dex, +1 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+5
Attack: Composite longbow +5 melee (1d8+5) or bite +5 melee (1d6+2)
Full Attack: Composite longbow +5 melee (1d8+5) or bite +5 melee (1d6+2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft. / 5 ft.
Special Attacks: -----
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft.
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +2
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 6
Skills: Hide +7, Listen +7, Move Silently +7, Spot +7, Survival +7
Feats: Point Blank Shot
Environment: Dark fortresses or villainous lairs
Organization: Minion-based
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Any Evil
Advancement: -----
Level Adjustment: -----

Catsbane is proficient with light armor and bucklers. He is also proficient with simple and martial weapons.

Deadly Aim: At 1st level, Catsbane may add his Dexterity modifier to damage rolls when using ranged weapons. He may also, before attacking in a round choose to subtract a number from all ranged attack rolls and add that number to ranged damage rolls. This number may not exceed his base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage last until his next turn. If he is wielding a two-handed weapon, he may instead add twice the number subtracted to his damage rolls.

Padded Feet: Catsbane only takes a -10 penalty when sniping, and may attempt to hide after making a ranged attack as a swift action. He may also attempt to move at his full speed while hiding without taking the normal -5 penalty on the check.

Gortwog, Orc Brute
Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Hit Dice: 2d12+4 (22 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft.
Armor Class: 16 (+5 breastplate, +1 Dex), touch 11, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+6
Attack: Greataxe +6 melee (1d12+6/x3) or throwing axe +3 ranged (1d6+4)
Full Attack: Greataxe +6 melee (1d12+6/x3) or throwing axe +3 ranged (1d6+4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft. / 5 ft.
Special Attacks: -----
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft.
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +1, Will -1
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 6
Skills: Balance +6, Intimidate +7, Jump +9, Tumble +6
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave (Bonus)
Environment: Dark fortresses or villainous lairs
Organization: Minion-based
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Any Evil
Advancement: -----
Level Adjustment: -----

Gortwog is proficient with light and medium armor, all shields (except tower shields), simple and martial weapons, the bastard sword, the spiked chain, and the orc double axe.

Combat Versatility: Gortwog qualifies for fighter feats as if he were a level 2 fighter, and receives one bonus fighter feat. When summoned for the first time on a particular day, Gortwog's master may swap his bonus feat out for another fighter feat for which Gortwog qualifies.

Brutish Countenance: Gortwog may Rage as a barbarian of his level, three times per day. Gortwog may add his Strength modifier to all Intimidate attempts. In addition, he gains a 10 foot bonus to his base land speed, and is no longer encumbered or slowed by medium armor.

Nilbog, Goblin Silencer
Small Humanoid (Goblinoid)
Hit Dice: 2d8+2 (14 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 30 ft.
Armor Class: 17 (+3 studded leather, +3 Dex, +1 size), touch 14, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-2
Attack: Shortsword +5 melee (1d6+1) or shortbow +5 ranged (1d6)
Full Attack: Shortsword +5 melee (1d6+1) or shortbow +5 ranged (1d6)
Space/Reach: 5 ft. / 5 ft.
Special Attacks: -----
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft.
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +6, Will +0
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 6
Skills: Balance +10, Disable Device, +6, Hide +12, Move Silently +12, Open Lock +8, Ride +7, Search +6, Sleight of Hand +8, Tumble +8
Feats: Weapon Finesse
Environment: Dark fortresses or villainous lairs
Organization: Minion-based
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Any Evil
Advancement: -----
Level Adjustment: -----

Nilbog is proficient with light armor, bucklers, simple weapons, and the rapier, the longsword, the shortbow, the short sword, the sap, and the hand crossbow.

Sneak Attack +1d6

Trapfinding

Toxic Aptitude: Nilbog is trained in the use of poison and never risks poisoning himself when applying it to a weapon. He may also apply poison as a swift action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity for doing so.

Shuffles, Necropolitan Hexer
Medium Undead
Hit Dice: 2d12 (18 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 30 ft.
Armor Class: 12 (+3 studded leather, -1 Dex), touch 9, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+2
Attack: Morningstar +1 melee (1d8) or sling 0 ranged (1d4)
Full Attack: Morningstar +1 melee (1d8) or sling 0 ranged (1d4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft. / 5 ft.
Special Attacks: -----
Special Qualities:
Saves: Fort +0, Ref -1, Will +4
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 8, Con 0, Int 15, Wis 13, Cha 14
Skills: Concentration +5, Knowledge (arcana) +7, Knowledge (the planes) +7, Knowledge (religion) +7, Spellcraft +9
Feats: Spell Focus (necromancy)
Environment: Dark fortresses or villainous lairs
Organization: Minion-based
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Any Evil
Advancement: -----
Level Adjustment: -----

Spellcasting: Shuffles has the spellcasting ability of a 2nd-level Black Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215165). He gains Karmic Aura and Power Word Pain as bonus spells.

Rebuke Undead: Shuffles can rebuke undead as a 2nd-level cleric. He may do so a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. He gains a +2 bonus to rebuke attempts due to his ranks in Knowledge (religion).

Unsettling Visage: As a free action, Shuffles can exude fear in a 5 foot radius. Affected creatures are shaken. This is a mind-affecting fear effect, and if a creature saves against it, it cannot be affected for 24 hours. The DC to resist the fear is equal to 11 + Shuffles' Charisma modifier.

Necropolitan Traits: Shuffles has a +2 turn resistance, a +2 profane bonus to Will saves against Control Undead spells, and heals hit point damage and ability damage at the same rate as a living creature. The Heal skill has no effect on him and he is healed by negative energy.


Warchief
http://images.ados.fr/divers/photo/hd/8085295808/galerie-personnages-feminins/halfeline-dungeons-dragons-1731604e4b.jpg

Lesser Archetype Power: On his action, before making attack rolls for a round, a warchief may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls. That same number is added to the attack and damage rolls of all allies with ten feet. This number may not exceed the warchief's base attack bonus. The penalty and bonuses remain until the warchief's next turn.
Moderate Archetype Power: Whenever a warchief makes an attack of opportunity against an opponent, any number of allies up to his Charisma modifier who can reach that opponent may also make an attack of opportunity against it.
Greater Archetype Power: Upon successfully demoralizing an opponent, the penalties inflicted by the warchief are equal to his Charisma modifier instead of simply -2, and any foe suffering from such penalties may not attack the warchief until no longer affected by them. This is a morale penalty and multiple warchiefs may not stack the effect.

Renchard
2011-11-01, 10:33 AM
I look forward to more.

Can I assume this is intended to provide support abilities, a la Marshal or Bard?

Gnorman
2011-11-02, 01:19 AM
Sort of a social skills / marshal / minion class, honestly.

It's ready for review, by the way!

Renchard
2011-11-02, 10:51 AM
Mostly good stuff here. Commanding presence is a great concept, and Impel negates any worries that this class doesn't have some offensive juice. Gold standard is one of those concepts that doesn't seem too strong at first, but becomes a hell of a lot of fun in play.

Patrician is also excellent, and warchief really grew on me once I thought about swift action -Cha demoralizes that block attacks.

Tyrant, honestly, I don't like. It just seems too magical compared to the other 2 archetypes, and I'm not a fan of implementing minion rules in a 3.5 based system. (Love them in 4e, though). I'd really like to hear your thoughts as to what you picture the archetype as.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-11-02, 11:03 AM
The Patrician seems far to powerful. Using a Swift action to deny your foe his or her Standard action (a foe who quite likely has penalties to the check due to the crushing despair effect) by using a skill that you are almost assured to have higher ranks in that your opponent just doesn't seem fair.

stack
2011-11-02, 12:02 PM
Okay, this is better than what I came up with (though I did like the idea of a archetype made to rile up crowds of commoners). Bravo, bravo.

Gnorman
2011-11-02, 05:14 PM
Tyrant, honestly, I don't like. It just seems too magical compared to the other 2 archetypes, and I'm not a fan of implementing minion rules in a 3.5 based system. (Love them in 4e, though). I'd really like to hear your thoughts as to what you picture the archetype as.

I picture it as the protagonist from the Overlord games, honestly - a ruthless dictator whose main class feature is the ability to send a neverending stream of minions to their imminent deaths. The unlimited fact is ostensibly balanced out by the fact that they don't function too well as meat shields, due to the 1 HP thing. But there's a lot of willing suspension of disbelief that needs to be maintained about where they come from, since yeah, he is technically pulling ogres and demons out of thin air.


The Patrician seems far to powerful. Using a Swift action to deny your foe his or her Standard action (a foe who quite likely has penalties to the check due to the crushing despair effect) by using a skill that you are almost assured to have higher ranks in that your opponent just doesn't seem fair.

How about a standard action to deny a standard action? Then it's fair and balanced, at least. I wanted the patrician to be able to "talk" an enemy out of combat, essentially locking them down by arguing or philosophizing with them.

Ziegander
2011-11-02, 05:31 PM
Gold standard seems completely broken. It basically says, "for the rest of the game, all purchases the party makes are either free or 25% cheaper." Since a good half of a PCs power comes from its gear, that's pretty ridiculous.

Iceforge
2011-11-02, 05:55 PM
How about a standard action to deny a standard action? Then it's fair and balanced, at least. I wanted the patrician to be able to "talk" an enemy out of combat, essentially locking them down by arguing or philosophizing with them.

Putting my 2 cents in: If the vision is that he is locking them down by arguing or philosophizing, what about ruling that if the effect is lost, should anyone attack the target?

I mean, one thing is arguing heated with an enemy while allies is fighting around you, another is keep arguing while being attacked yourself.

Gnorman
2011-11-02, 10:47 PM
Changed the patrician's abilities to depend on the target being intelligent and able to speak the same language, and also increased it to a standard action. Also adopting Iceforge's "trance-breaking" idea, good call.

The tyrant must now speak the same language to command his minions to perform complicated tasks, and has switched out lizardfolk for the more appropriate bugbear.

Gold Standard has been toned down to 10% / 50 gp, but has received the added bonus of being able to identify magic items with a successful Appraise check.

Tentatively planning to build specific minions for the tyrant, and reducing his list somewhat.

Mangles
2011-11-03, 08:37 AM
I agree on custom minions reduced list. Even if you rip of overlord completely
Minions advance 1 hit die for every 2 their master has. Bellow are the minions a tyrant can summon. A tyrant may have a number of minions equal to his Charisma Modifer active at any one time. Minions do not get any skills from advancement and get 1 hit point per level in their minion class. Minions cannot take any other class levels nor can they multi-class.

Base creature Minion
Size/Type: Small Humanoid (Goblinoid)
Hit Dice: 1d1
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 12 (+1 size, +1 Dex), touch 12, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-3
Attack: Dagger +3 melee (1d3+1) or Sling +3 ranged (1d3+1)
Full Attack: +3 melee (1d3+1) or Sling +3 ranged (1d3+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks:
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft.
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +1, Will -1
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 6
Skills: Hide +5, Listen +2, Move Silently +5, Ride +4, Spot +2
Feats: Alertness
Challenge Rating: 1/5
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +0

Minions when summoned always have at least 1 level in one of the following classes.


Minion Brute (Brown)
{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special | Summons
1st | 1 | +2 | +0 | +0 | Bonus Feat| Morningstar
2nd | 2 | +3 | +1 | +1 |Powerful Build|Leather Armour, Buckler
3rd | 3 | +3 | +1 | +1| Bonus Feat |Longsword
[/table]

Weapon Proficiency: A minion is proficient with the dagger, sling and any equipment it is summoned with.

Summons: A minion gets summoned with different equipment depending on their level. The summoned weapons and armour are non-masterwork and may never be enchanted. A minion is also always summoned with a dagger and a sling with 10 bullets. Should a Brute be summoned as an advanced minion it is summoned with a masterwork bastard sword instead of a longsword.

Bonus Feat: A Brute may select a Bonus feat from the Fighter Bonus Feats, treating his brute level for Fighter level.

Powerful build: A Brute is considered 1 size larger when it would benefit him. This includes the use of larger weapons but does not increase his space nor reach.

Minion Archer (Red)
{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special | Summons
1st | 1 | +0 | +2 | +0 | Bonus Feat | Shortbow
2nd | 2 | +1 | +3 | +1 | Shot On The Run| Leather Armour
3rd | 3 | +1 | +3 | +1| Bonus Feat |Longbow
[/table]

Summons: A minion gets summoned with different equipment depending on their level. The summoned weapons and armour are non-masterwork and may never be enchanted. A minion is also always summoned with a dagger and a sling with 10 bullets. Should a Archer be summoned as an advanced minion it is summoned with a masterwork composite longbow with a strength rating of +1, instead of a longbow.

Bonus Feat: A Archer may select a Bonus feat from the Fighter Bonus Feats, treating his Archer level for Fighter level.

Shot On The Run: A Archer receives the Shot On The Run feat even if they do not qualify for it.

Minion Healer (Blue)
{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special | Summons
1st | 1 | +0 | +0 | +2 |Lay on Hands |
2nd | 2 | +1 | +1 | +3 | | Mage Armor
3rd | 3 | +1 | +1 | +3| |
[/table]

Summons: A minion gets summoned with different equipment depending on their level. The summoned weapons and armour are non-masterwork and may never be enchanted. A minion is also always summoned with a dagger and a sling with 10 bullets. Should a Healer be summoned as an advanced minion it is able to heal twice the amount as normal with its lay on hands ability.

Lay on Hands
A Healer is able to heal wounds by touch. Each round she can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to her healer level. Using this ability is a full round action.

Minion Sneak(Green)
{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special | Summons
1st | 1 | +0 | +2 | +0 | Two-Weapon Fighting | Second Dagger
2nd | 2 | +1 | +3 | +1 | Two-Weapon Defense| Short Sword
3rd | 3 | +1 | +3 | +1| Improved Two-Weapon Fighting | Greenblood oil poision
[/table]

Summons: A minion gets summoned with different equipment depending on their level. The summoned weapons and armour are non-masterwork and may never be enchanted. A minion is also always summoned with a dagger and a sling with 10 bullets. Should a Sneakbe summoned as an advanced minion it is summoned with a masterwork Short sword and its poison does double damage the regular con damage.

Feats: A Sneak gets the listed feats regardless of if they qualify for them or not.



Its not perfect, but i feel its better than a whole lot of high CR guys with 1hp. Also as you can see the minions advance and at some point one of the archetype powers can be summon advanced minion so many times / day.

Eldest
2011-11-03, 04:49 PM
@ Mangles: The minion healer would need some sort of level three ability.

Iceforge
2011-11-03, 04:55 PM
I don't know if I like the idea of ripping of Overlord and making those minions, but in line with those, may I suggest that the blue/healer minion get 15ft range to their heal ability at level 3

Gnorman
2011-11-04, 12:33 AM
I don't want to rip off Overlord directly, though the game was something of an inspiration of the archetype. Mangles, I do very much like your idea of having a number of minions equal to the tyrant's charisma modifier.

My plan was to, instead of being able to summon bog standard goblins and orcs to have just one minion available at each level, but to give each one a class level, to a maximum of 2.

For example: At level 2, you can summon a goblin as a minion. At level 4, the goblin would gain one level in the scoundrel class. At level 6, the goblin would gain another level in the scoundrel class, and gain the lesser archetype power of the silencer archetype. He would not, however, gain skill points or feats, as minions are intended to be disposable combat resources. No minion should have more than two or three CR, since they are unlimited resources. The ogre might even be pushing it, but the fact that they have severely reduced hit points balances it out somewhat - sure, you can have a lot of minions, but one well-placed fireball or flask of alchemist's fire and you're suddenly quite defenseless.

This may end up being more complicated than it is worth, though.

Mangles
2011-11-04, 07:41 AM
@ Iceforge and Eldest

The blue/healer minion wasn't complete. For instance it still has full bab and that should probably be dropped.

@ Gnorman

Its your homebrew. Make it how you want it, not how others do. We are just here to suggest, prod, annoy and generally pester you to do it our way. :smallwink:

That being said I do think that some of the more powerful summons you were giving out were a bit over the top. Minions are supposed to be disposable. Henchmen are meant to be the big'uns.

Glad you like the char mod thing. I really like rewarding players for good stat distribution. If its a choice between extra skills or an extra minion they are going to have too choose.

Gnorman
2011-11-05, 04:07 AM
Tyrant minions have been toned down somewhat, especially the capstone - he still gets to summon a nightmare for style points but no more babau or barbazu.

Wyntonian
2011-11-05, 10:32 AM
Just wondering, but might it be possible for a tyrant to summon a non-orc/goblin minion? What if they're good and virtuous and poop rainbows such? Might they be able to summon humans or some other non-evil race?

Gnorman
2011-11-05, 05:12 PM
Just wondering, but might it be possible for a tyrant to summon a non-orc/goblin minion? What if they're good and virtuous and poop rainbows such? Might they be able to summon humans or some other non-evil race?

I suppose in the interest of fairness I should include non-evil clauses for that archetype, yes.

A good aligned tyrant (a Benefactor) could summon halflings and elves at 2nd level, pseudodragons and nixies at 4th level, and blink dogs and centaurs at 6th level. His capstone would let him summon a unicorn or a pegasus.

A neutral-aligned tyrant (a Liege Lord) could summon dwarves and gnomes at 2nd level, lizardfolk and grimlocks at 4th level, and azer and ankhegs at 6th level . His capstone would let him summon a griffon.

Dandria
2011-12-11, 05:06 PM
Awesome class and I can't wait to play it, but I think I found a problem with the unlimited minions of the Tyrant. Well, not really a problem: it's more of a. . . Look, I'll just show you.

A Tyrant, alone, is quite helpless. Now, let's say this particular, paranoic Tyrant with an 18 in charisma hates the idea of being helpless. So, every morning, when he wakes up, he:

- Summons a Minion. Moves.
- Summons a Minion. Moves.
- Summons a Minion. Moves.
- Summons a Minion. Moves.
- Takes his Turn.
- Takes his Turn.
- Takes his Turn.
- Moves. Readies an Action: when a minion disappears he summons another.
- Moves. Readies an Action: when a minion disappears he summons another.
- Moves. Readies an Action: when a minion disappears he summons another.
- Moves. Readies an Action: when a minion disappears he summons another.
- Takes his Turn.
- Etc.

It's maddening and he can keep doing it. Again and again. All day. Everyday.

Now, I don't say you should take him away this possibility: you can never stop an ******* from doing his job and ruin the game. And yet, I think there should be something to encourage a Tyrant to avoid this.

My idea is: how about giving him a permanent henchman? Something weak, but useful outside of combat or as a shield. A true servant that every Tyrant should have, a toady who disappears as soon as a minion is summoned and that takes ten minutes to call forth again.

What do you think? Would it stop tyrants from summoning hordes minions out of combat?

Noblesse
2011-12-11, 05:22 PM
X number of level 6 warchiefs each take a penalty of -4, if placed all next to one another-- (X-1)x4 +to hit and damage.

+16 to hit and damage for a standard party size of 5

+76 to hit and damage if you had 20 :smalleek: Give each a longbow and they can take out a Titan no problem!

True, no party would really consist of all warchiefs (or really more than one or two) but the bonus/penalty should be typed just to avoid any potential cheese.

Wyntonian
2011-12-11, 09:03 PM
Now, I don't say you should take him away this possibility: you can never stop an ******* from doing his job and ruin the game. And yet, I think there should be something to encourage a Tyrant to avoid this.

My idea is: how about giving him a permanent henchman? Something weak, but useful outside of combat or as a shield. A true servant that every Tyrant should have, a toady who disappears as soon as a minion is summoned and that takes ten minutes to call forth again.

What do you think? Would it stop tyrants from summoning hordes minions out of combat?

Perhaps something based of Unseen Servant? I think that's the name of the spell. Something to help you carry stuff, do chores, that sort of thing. Probably not invisible, but along those lines.

Dandria
2011-12-12, 04:30 AM
Perhaps something based of Unseen Servant? I think that's the name of the spell. Something to help you carry stuff, do chores, that sort of thing. Probably not invisible, but along those lines.

Even something less useful than that. A kobold or a goblin with Profession (Lackey) is more what I was thinking about. But no, even an Unseen Servant could be adequate for a Tyrant. Anyway, something that sticks around if you don't have any minions out.

Mangles
2011-12-12, 06:37 AM
The tyrant in the class has improved a lot since I last saw it.

@ Dandria. Some people will spend all there time Roll playing. Its not worth bending over backwards to fit your class to them. Rather its better to make a class that doesn't have any obvious cheese and just get on with your life. Besides its not that powerful to have the guy walking around with 4 minions all the time, and he will slow the pace of all his party if he intends to take that set of actions out of combat.

Gnorman
2011-12-12, 07:44 AM
Made a couple of changes to prevent the tyrant's minion-readying abuse and the warchief's demoralize stacking abuse, as they were both valid points.

Dandria
2011-12-12, 08:44 AM
@ Dandria. Some people will spend all there time Roll playing. Its not worth bending over backwards to fit your class to them. Rather its better to make a class that doesn't have any obvious cheese and just get on with your life. Besides its not that powerful to have the guy walking around with 4 minions all the time, and he will slow the pace of all his party if he intends to take that set of actions out of combat.

Meh, I still think giving it a henchman would have been a nice way to stop someone from trying it. Henchmen are cool.

Gnorman
2011-12-12, 09:05 AM
Meh, I still think giving it a henchman would have been a nice way to stop someone from trying it. Henchmen are cool.

I've never been thrilled with the tyrant's moderate archetype power, as it was admittedly a filler ability. A permanent henchman (perhaps something that fits a different niche, like a black mage or a scoundrel) could be a cool replacement. They'd have two levels in a class, full HP, and if killed, could be revived 24 hours later. Take at the very least a full-round action to summon, possibly more. A tyrant wouldn't necessarily be restricted to one particular henchman, but could pick a new one each day (drawing on "reserves" back at the obsidian fortress, or whatever).

Dandria
2011-12-12, 09:21 AM
I've never been thrilled with the tyrant's moderate archetype power, as it was admittedly a filler ability. A permanent henchman (perhaps something that fits a different niche, like a black mage or a scoundrel) could be a cool replacement. They'd have two levels in a class, full HP, and if killed, could be revived 24 hours later. Take at the very least a full-round action to summon, possibly more. A tyrant wouldn't necessarily be restricted to one particular henchman, but could pick a new one each day (drawing on "reserves" back at the obsidian fortress, or whatever).

Uh, even better! It makes a good right hand and actually gives you a reason to keep it around. So, I'd say: a minute to summon it and it disappears when you call out the minions?

Gnorman
2011-12-12, 09:48 AM
Uh, even better! It makes a good right hand and actually gives you a reason to keep it around. So, I'd say: a minute to summon it and it disappears when you call out the minions?

Something along those lines, yes. I don't know how abusive it could be to allow the use of the henchman and the minions at the same time, but I assume people will find a way. The tyrant gets the choice between one decent minion or many pushovers, and has to adapt his or her tactics to the situation at hand - I like the way it encourages the player to adopt strategic thinking, ideal for the feel of the class in general.

Gnorman
2011-12-13, 07:01 AM
The tyrant archetype has been overhauled. I have removed his "giving bonus feats to minions" ability and his nightmare-summoning powers, but have given him henchmen (meatier minions with class levels) and a hefty bonus to minion defenses based on his Charisma.

Eldest
2012-01-19, 08:15 AM
I like the Dilettante, but I think the casting might be a little weak. The best you could get would be a 6 or so at level 6 (18 base, +2 racial, +2 item, +1 (though it doesn't matter) bonus at level 4). Correct me if I'm wrong about that and there are other bonuses.

Mangles
2012-01-19, 08:44 AM
The Dilettante shouldn't be too strong at any one thing. That's the joy of getting to pick THREE different niches that you can change to once a day. I'm sure that there will be a homebrew feat that will let you change your mind once a day too, or where you choose one of the focuses and can swap to that whenever needed or something.

Gnorman
2012-01-20, 01:51 AM
I like the Dilettante, but I think the casting might be a little weak. The best you could get would be a 6 or so at level 6 (18 base, +2 racial, +2 item, +1 (though it doesn't matter) bonus at level 4). Correct me if I'm wrong about that and there are other bonuses.

One level two spell per day and three level one spells (an easily-reached +5) is the right baseline for me. As Mangles mentions, there could easily be a feat to help out, maybe something that would increase this to perhaps twice the Charisma modifier and allow third level spells, but it would definitely be an "epic" feat (or two). In fact, here they are:

Magical Charlatan
Prerequisites: Dilettante archetype, ability to emulate 2nd-level spells
Benefit: Your number of spell levels per day is increased to twice your Charisma modifier.

Court "Wizard"
Prerequisites: Magical Charlatan
Benefit: You may now cast 3rd-level spells when using Magic Focus.

Surrealistik
2012-01-20, 02:30 AM
The henchman Nilbog needs an ability that specifically pertains to the fact that his name is in fact goblin spelt backwards.

Also where exactly are the Tyrant's minions/henchmen summoned? In an adjacent space?

Gnorman
2012-01-20, 03:09 AM
The henchman Nilbog needs an ability that specifically pertains to the fact that his name is in fact goblin spelt backwards.

Also where exactly are the Tyrant's minions/henchmen summoned? In an adjacent space?

Good catch. Henchman are "nearest unoccupied space," while minions are "any unoccupied space within ten feet".

Icedaemon
2012-01-20, 05:32 AM
I like the general concept and idea. However, gold standard still seems a bit over the top. Also, with Tyrant, why not make the minions appear from behind cover, around a corner ect within a set radius, making the ability nonfunctional in a flat open area as a trade off but perhaps if you think that severely weakens them (though I for one do believe if anything, this adds more tactical opportunities) increasing their duration to 3*cha?

Eldest
2012-01-20, 08:11 AM
Or the tyrant extends a cloaked arm, and when the cloak falls back the minion/henchman is there...
That's more the fluff of it: you should enable the players to make up most of the fluff.

Surrealistik
2012-01-20, 02:54 PM
Nilbog! It's Goblin Spelt Backwards! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTfjb8Fgiyg) (Ex): Should a creature make this horrifying (albeit obvious) revelation, it must make a Will saving throw against a DC of 15. On a failure, it becomes dazed and shaken for 1 round. This is a fear effect. A creature may only be subject to this effect once per lifetime.

Surrealistik
2012-01-21, 12:09 PM
No love Gnorman? :smallfrown:

Gnorman
2012-01-21, 05:50 PM
No love Gnorman? :smallfrown:

Plenty of love.

Alternate ability?

Green Dwarf (Su): Nilbog is immune to normal damage, and instead is healed for a number of hit points equal to the damage that would have been dealt to him. This cannot increase his hit points above his normal maximum. Anytime Nilbog would be healed, instead reduce his hit points by the total he would have been healed.

Both abilities skirt the fourth wall a little too closely for me to include them, though.