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Byzantine
2011-11-01, 12:02 PM
Allomancy is one of the three magic systems in the Mistborn fantasy novel trilogy, and is the most prominent. People capable of Allomancy are known as Allomancers. Allomancers have the ability to "burn" (or use) metals, in order to fuel a variety of physical and mental enhancements and abilities. For an additional burst of power, they may flare, or burn their metal especially quickly, consuming it at an accelerated rate, but gaining greater benefits in return. A person who can only burn one metal is known as a Misting. If a person is born with the ability to burn more than one metal, they can burn all Allomantic metals, and are known as Mistborn.

There are 16 metals that Allomancers are able to use: 8 basic metals (4 base metals and 4 alloys) and 8 Higher metals (4 base metals and 4 alloys). There are also 3 additional metals referred to as 'God metals' that sit outside of the main 16, which have as many as 16 alloys each. All these metals must be pure when ingested, and the alloys must be mixed to specific proportions. If the metals are impure or mixed wrong the Allomancer could become very ill or possibly die.

What I'm trying to do is adapt that to d20, optimally 3.5. I'm also considering refluffing it to fit into a world other than Scadria. Input, advice, questions or other forms assistance/interest is appreciated.

Allomancy d20 Conversion as it stands:

The Basics
Starting or ending a 'burn' (using the metal) is a free action. Flaring and scrimping must be decided at the start of a burn. One round of burning uses a number of charges. Charges are regained from the use of allomantic vials, and fade after 24 hours. Scrimping divides the power of the metal in half for half the number of charges (rounding down when required, or to the nearest useable unit). Flaring multiplies the bonus by the number of charges used per round. Limit of flaring is x5 under normal circumstances.

Burning an improperly balanced allomantic metal sickens for 1d6 hours. Burning a non-allomantic metal is poisonous (DC 25 ingested, sickened 2d6 hours, 1d6 Con damage).

All powers have a range of 100ft unless otherwise stated.

Possible bonuses for being misting: Flaring up to x7? More targets per action? Longer duration? Increased bonuses? Combination of the above? Only ones eligible for savanthood (i.e. more bonuses/always flaring to x2 with no negative)? Thoughts and suggestions on this would be appreciated.

The Metals
Steel/Iron: Activated. Allows metal objects to be pushed/pulled in a straight line as a move action. Range 60 feet (maybe more?). Lighter objects (and allomancers) are pushed/pulled at a speed of 15+5 per 15lbs difference (total, gear counts, as well as things bracing the pushed/pulled object). Max speed is 100, regardless of flaring (possibly more?). Max targets to be pushed/pulled per action is 2 (with ways to increase number of targets via feats, levels and stuff). Intangible blue lines connect the allomancer to all valid targets. Unable to push/pull when scrimping.

Tin: Passive. +4 (maybe +6?) to listen, search, spot. Sonic damage deafens on failed fortitude save (DC 10+damage, 2d4/1d8 rounds). Light sensitivity (perhaps light blindness instead?). 1 nonlethal per 5 lethal damage taken. Flaring grants Scent ability.

Pewter: Passive. +2 Strength, Dexterity, Fortitude, +10 speed. Not disabled/dying at 0 or less. Fight past -10 (and die immediately if the burn ends at -10 or less, removed when scrimping). Resistant to nonlethal damage (not knocked out at NLD>=HP, maybe?). DR 2/Piercing with Flaring.

Bronze: Passive. Detect Allomancy, 60ft range.

Copper: Passive. Protection from Detect Allomancy at 30ft range from allomancer. Self only immunity to Brass/Zinc.

Brass/Zinc: Activated (maybe passive/activated?). Not sure entirely yet. +4 (or +6) to diplomacy, intimidate and bluff both against the target? Unique bonuses each? They already have a myriad of roleplay affects.

Gold: Passive. Mostly a roleplay metal, it allows you to see, essentially, alternate versions of yourself. +3 to a random skill when burned.

Electrum: Another roleplay metal. It lets you see your own future. I dunno... maybe some sort of minor divination-like effect, if I had to give it a crunchy ability?

Cadmium: Passive. Stretches a bubble of time, making it pass slower. Stationary 13x13 bubble. Arrows and thrown items pass through normally, though if they pass completely through, the direction is slightly changed, resulting in a 20% miss chance. To the outside observer, everything within the bubble moves in slow motion, or stands completely still at higher flares. Base time conversion is 1 round of real time per 10 rounds in the bubble. Burn-rate would be in real time.

Bendalloy: Passive. Compresses a bubble of time, making it pass faster; same problem as cadmium, opposite effect. Stationary 2x2 bubble. Arrows and thrown items pass through normally, though if they pass completely through, the direction is slightly changed, resulting in a 20% miss chance. To the outside observer, everything within the bubble is nothing but a blur. Base time conversion is 1 round within the bubble per 10 rounds of real time. Burn-rate would be in real time.

Aluminum: This one is strange, but easy; it destroys other allomantic reserves in the body on a 1-1 basis. It burns instantly; immediate action to get rid of all your metals. It only really works for mistborn, though, since they can burn all metals.

Duralumin: Another strange one (I may have to rethink the Active/Passive paradigm). Duralumin forces you to flare your metal, at an increased bonus. Once I figure out what system balances out best, I'll work on this one more.

Chromium: An external version of aluminum. It lets you destroy another allomancers metals on a 2-1 basis. Doesn't burn instantly, though.

Nicrosil: The chromium of duralumin. It lets you enhance the metals of other allomancers. Again, once I figure out what system works best, I'll update this one.

Artefact Metals: These metals are powerful, hard to balance, and really more belong as the focuses of quests and stuff.

Larasium: Activated. This metal comes in 1 charge beads, and anyone that is not misting or mistborn may burn it. Larasium mixed with any one allomantic metal causes the burner to become a misting with that metal. Straight larasium, when burned, produces a mistborn. I'm debating letting a misting become mistborn in this way; thoughts? (See: Misting and Mistborn templates.)

Atium: Insanely freaking powerful, lets you see a brief moment into the future, and lets you act accordingly. Insight bonuses out the wazoo. Also extremely rare. 2+Wis mod (minimum 2) insight bonus to attack, damage, AC and saves.

Malatium: An alloy of gold and atium. Lets you see other people's alternate selves. What sort of bonuses would you think this gives? Maybe a massive bonus to social rolls? (Good lords, malatium and zinc/brass. Scary thought.)

Burn-rates
{table=head]Metal|Burn-rate

Steel|2

Iron|2

Tin|1

Pewter|4

Bronze|2

Copper|1

Zinc|2

Brass|1

Gold|3

Electrum|5

Cadmium|3

Bendalloy|3

Aluminum|All

Duralumin|1+1 per flare boost

Chromium|2

Nicrosil|2+1 per flare boost

Larasium|N/A

Atium|5

Malatium|3[/table]

Allomancer Subtype and Templates
The allomancer subtype is much like the psionic subtype; it merely means that the subject has an allomantic reserve.

Misting
Misting is an acquired template that can be added to any aberration, fey, giant, humanoid or monstrous humanoid. The creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature) must have either ingested alloyed larasium or have Snapped into their (existing genetic) power.

Size and Type: Size remains unchanged. The creature gains the allomancer subtype, in addition to any other subtypes it may have.
Special Qualities: A misting has all the special qualities of the base creature, as well as those described below.
Allomancy (Su): A misting may pick one metal from the list of allomantic metals. They gain the ability to hold and use an allomantic reserve for the selected metal. Maximum allomantic reserve is equal to 15+(HDx3)+size modifier. If your size increases or decreases, so does your allomantic reserve. If this would cause your stored reserve to be greater then your maximum, you lose the excess.
{table=head]Size|Modifier

Fine|-16

Diminuative|-12

Tiny|-8

Small|-4

Medium|0

Large|+4

Huge|+8

Gargantuan|+12

Colossal|+16[/table]
Skills: +2 to appraise for items where metal is a significant part of the construction, otherwise same as base creature.
Organization: Solitary, team (2-6) or same as base creature.
Challenge Rating: Same as base creature +1.
Level Adjustment: Same as base creature +1.

Mistborn
Mistborn is an acquired template that can be added to any aberration, fey, giant, humanoid or monstrous humanoid. The creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature) must have either ingested larasium or have Snapped into their (existing genetic) power.

Size and Type: Size remains unchanged. The creature gains the allomancer subtype, in addition to any other subtypes it may have.
Special Qualities: A mistborn has all the special qualities of the base creature, as well as those described below.
Allomancy (Su): A mistborn gains an allomantic reserve for all metals. Maximum allomantic reserve is equal to 15+(HDx2)+size modifier. If your size increases or decreases, so does your allomantic reserve. If this would cause your stored reserve to be greater then your maximum, you lose the excess.
{table=head]Size|Modifier

Fine|-16

Diminuative|-12

Tiny|-8

Small|-4

Medium|0

Large|+4

Huge|+8

Gargantuan|+12

Colossal|+16[/table]
Abilities: Same as base creature.
Skills: +2 to appraise for items where metal is a significant part of the construction, otherwise same as base creature.
Organization: Solitary, team (2-6) or same as base creature.
Challenge Rating: Same as base creature +2.
Level Adjustment: Same as base creature +2.

Feats
Allomantic Generation [Allomantic, General]
You have learned how to draw power from the most obscure sources.
Prerequisites: Level 3
Benefit: You draw trace metals from the food you eat and the water you drink. Every day that you eat or drink, you gain 1 charge in your allomantic reserve.

Efficient Burning [Allomantic, General]
Your experience with allomancy has taught you better use for your allomantic reserves.
Prerequisites: Misting, Savant, Level 12
Benefit: Each charge of your allomantic metal lasts two rounds, rather than one. (With the burn-rate system the burn-rate is reduced by 1. If this would reduce it to 0, use base effect.)

Expanded Allomantic Reserve [Allomantic, General]
You can hold more in your allomantic reserves.
Benefit: Choose one metal that you can burn. Your allomantic reserve for that metal is increased by 10.
Special: This feat may be taken more than once. It's effects stack. If the same metal is chosen more than once, the allomantic reserve is increased by 5.

Savant [Allomantic, General]
Constant reliance on your allomancy has increased your abilities with it.
Prerequisites: Misting, Level 12
Benefit: The bonuses gained from burning a metal are always treated as one level of burn higher than normal.

Prestige Classes
Allomancy Master
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Reflex|Will|Special
[/table]

SamBurke
2011-11-01, 12:19 PM
That sounds like a whole base class to me.

Mr.Bookworm
2011-11-01, 12:25 PM
If you want a direct conversion, I would just make it a feat that grants you access to the subsystem. Simple as that.

Given that this is supposed to be balanced next to the other magic systems, though, I would just make a Mistborn base class.

Maybe a 3-5 level PrC for Mistings.

Byzantine
2011-11-01, 01:05 PM
Hm. It's possible. I'd need to build up the subsystem a bit. I was considering a skill-based system at first, but I don't think that skill checks would have worked out for something like this.

The class is possible. I've been working on it, but that has it's own set of problems. Like the fact that it technically is not limited by level, but by practice (which is normally tied into level, but that's neither here nor there).

DracoDei
2011-11-01, 01:08 PM
I think there may have been an earlier attempt at this on this site, try the following as a google search. It may not work, but it should give you the idea of how to do this sort of search.
site:www.giantitp.com allomancer

Mulletmanalive
2011-11-01, 01:26 PM
If you were to ignore the flaring of metals, you could probably just refluff [carefully] a Warlock to get most of the effects you need here.

Steel, being seemingly the most common, could be based on Eldritch Blast and you could have a selection of metal slots to use metals in, beyond that, simply treating them as loseable objects that fuel class features.

The fancy ones would have to be magic items, mind. Atium being basically a permanent Foresight spell...

If you have a list of the metals and what they can do, i'm willing to have a go at making a class for you, or at least helping...

Byzantine
2011-11-01, 01:45 PM
http://mistborn.wikia.com/wiki/Allomancy for the list of metals and the over all ability of allomancy.

THe main problem is that I want to stay close to canon (in feel, not in power. Vin and Kelsier were, like, level 10+ over.) As such, metal would be burned and lost, 'charges' have to be expended within 24 hours and so on. Prices for allomantic vials would get prohibative pretty quickly; 10 rounds of atium would be more costly than 100 rounds of gold.

I saw the thread on allomancy a while back, but it doesn't feel like they got very far. I suppose the main problem is the fact that you get all of the ability up-front. There is no 'levels of allomantic power'; either you burn steel and can coinshoot and the like, or you can't. Either you burn copper and make a coppercloud, or you can't.

It may not be a magic system, per se. It is a type of magic yes, but it's not even as remotely traditional as a warlock. The feats make sense to a point, but it limits the overall potential (unless I get REALLY in depth with the feats.... which would take forever and a day).

Mulletmanalive
2011-11-01, 01:56 PM
The Atium would be priced based on its actual effects as a magic item

As i've not read the books and know for a fact that you can't balance anything based on gold, i wish you luck in your endevour.

Peace!

Byzantine
2011-11-01, 02:20 PM
Lemme rephrase. Atium wouldn't be a magic item, per se. It is a rare metal, and it burns quickly. It's a precious resource. A vial of atium would have roughly the same amount of metal, but would not last nearly as long. Where as copper might have 50 charges a vial, atium would only have 5. The gold thing has a bit to do with incentive not to abuse the power. Mostly it's just a role playing thing, but gold is a factor in over all balance. Perhaps not ultimately whether it's good or not, but it does factor in, in small doses.

I realize that it seems horribly broken for d20 (well, honestly, it is, but I'm a glutton for punishment), but I'm compelled to try. It kinda goes hand-in-hand with a friends project to make chormatheurgy work (which is from a totally different book series). I think the best way to start is to put the limits on that keep it from overpowering other things.

Wyntonian
2011-11-01, 07:18 PM
I would strongly suggest moving away from the fluff of the series, and making it so that allomancers don't need to purchase their metals. I know that breaks what the books say in half, and makes all of the PC's mistborn rather than mistings, but for the sake of balance, it probably will work better. That, or let them create them easily themselves. Say give them five base metals, and SLA's or a point-based thing tied to each one, and at higher levels let them learn how to alloy them properly to create new effects. These guys will top out at tier 2, maximum, simply due to lack of versatility. Yeah, they have 16 effects, but wizards have as many as there's wizard spells.

A thought on how the alloys/points thing could work (please, forget you read the books while you read this) :

Let's go with Steel, Tin, Bronze, Pewter and Brass. These could either be dictated at creation, or chosen from a list, with the option to gain more later. The Allomancer could have a total limit of 10 points each to begin with, or we could have it be malleable at creation, say, having ten points in three metals, nine in one and eleven in the last.

As long as the Allomancer consumes (eats? I dunno) a given amount of each metal per day, they can use the powers, up to the limit dictated by the number of points they have associated with the metal. I'd recommend using the psionic power point system as a baseline for this. Surging, I think it's called, could allow you to use multiple points at once for a greater effect.

Alloying could be a developed power that allows the Allomancer to internally combine the consumed metals, either entirely or in part, to create a new effect. We might want to break away from the canon to do this, as it's a little constricting from what I can see. A Allomancer could combine a point of Steel and a point of Bronze to make two points of....something. Bronze-Steel alloy, that would have a different effect.

We'd need to do a lot of work to make this workable, but it's a start.

NichG
2011-11-02, 01:41 PM
Edit: The above post already made this point and I missed it. Alas.

What if you made it somewhat like psionics, in that you have a limit to how much you can safely burn at a single time that is based on your level. Then have a series of tables that say how each metal scales with expenditure.

Flaring is like overchannelling, you can do it but you get nasty stat damage.

Coinshot for instance, perhaps does a maximum of 1d6 damage per point of metal spent if used to propel a projectile, and has limits analogous to telekinesis.
Maybe you need to spend at least 3 to even consider moving certain things.

That'd take care of the power growth curve, but it wouldn't help with making the versatility grow.

gabrion
2011-11-02, 05:27 PM
I was actually thinking about doing a project like this a while back, but never got around to it. I love Sanderson's work and would be a big fan of any attempt to translate it to an RPG medium.

That said, I think to be successful in doing so, you'd have to just swallow the discomfort and come to terms with the fact that major departures from cannon will be necessary.

1) Leveling up, as you pointed out, usually controls power in these types of games. The "all-or-nothing" approach to allomancy (either you have it or you don't) just doesn't translate well. Level progression is necessary and probably the best you could do is making represent the character's practice.
2) Mistborn are objectively stronger than Mistings, but that just isn't much fun in a game. At the very least it might make sense to have Mistings automatically become savants as they level up.
3) Flaring is a built in mechanic that is once again "all-or-nothing." This one might be workable in a system that gives you effectively spell points or power points for the day if it acts as a sort of nova, but it could also be a good idea to make it a progression sort of thing.
4) I highly discourage making allomanic powers actually based on resources (ie consuming metals). Characters might still do this thematically, but it shouldn't cost money to use class powers. Plus, some sort of daily limit needs to be in place anyway.

So those are some of the challenges I see. Here are some of the (extremely crude) ideas that come to mind.

1) Mistborn could "unlock" different alloys as they level up. Not terribly desirable because it's just not the way the system worked.
2) All the alloys could be available to them at level one, but you could write up different, more powerful, effects they can make with them as they level up. This isn't terribly against the theme of the novels as skill determined a lot of what an allomancer was capable of and in game version XP is the best metric of practice and training you may be able to have.
3) If you had a progression of abilities that you could produce by burning a metal, flaring could allow you to accomplish abilities another step up on the power scale (or a few). This would allow flaring off the bat, but also make it something that progresses with the character as they level up.
4) Each allomancer's body could have a "tolerance" for metals that only allows them to consume so much in a given day. This would create a resource management system similar to spells/day or power points (probably more like the latter as they would be able to burn metals for any effect they are capable of at any time). As they level up they would their tolerance would go up.

Dunno if any of my ramblings make sense or offer any help, but good luck.

DracoDei
2011-11-02, 07:18 PM
Never read the series, but as someone who HATES when conversions don't match the fluff of the original, here are my suggestions.

1) Leveling up, as you pointed out, usually controls power in these types of games. The "all-or-nothing" approach to allomancy (either you have it or you don't) just doesn't translate well. Level progression is necessary and probably the best you could do is making represent the character's practice.
Or make each possibility a template, perhaps with one or more PrCs (which probably ONLY require the template, although ranks in Knowledge(Metalurgy) or Arcana or Spellcraft could be used if necessary).

2) Mistborn are objectively stronger than Mistings, but that just isn't much fun in a game. At the very least it might make sense to have Mistings automatically become savants as they level up.
In which case this would be a template with a lower LA/CR adjustment.

3) Flaring is a built in mechanic that is once again "all-or-nothing." This one might be workable in a system that gives you effectively spell points or power points for the day if it acts as a sort of nova, but it could also be a good idea to make it a progression sort of thing.
Fold this into the template? Or, if you insist, have the PrCs progress it.

4) I highly discourage making allomanic powers actually based on resources (ie consuming metals). Characters might still do this thematically, but it shouldn't cost money to use class powers. Plus, some sort of daily limit needs to be in place anyway.
Expensive material components are never cited as a major draw-back of magic-users... which is to say that if you keep any given metal either:

Cheap enough it isn't really a problem for a character who can use it (IE look at the WBL for the campaign and cross reference that with the LA on the templates/level access to the metal is gotten).
Ultra-rare enough to qualify as a quest-item rather than something you actually PURCHASE per-se most of the time.



2) All the alloys could be available to them at level one, but you could write up different, more powerful, effects they can make with them as they level up. This isn't terribly against the theme of the novels as skill determined a lot of what an allomancer was capable of and in game version XP is the best metric of practice and training you may be able to have.
Ah, in which case, "you either are or are not a mistborn/mistling" holds only slightly more water (at best) than "you either are or are not a sorcerer" or "you either are or are not a warlock"... if they always start with better skills than that, then just make it as a hybrid base-class/template... which is to say, a base class that no character may ever have less than X levels of, but can certainly have MORE than that. The minimum number of levels represents someone who has just discovered they have the talent , and/or it was known since they were a baby, and they have just reached adventuring age (on the LOWEST rank of the starting age chart...). Perhaps do something funky to nerf skill-points for those levels... saves, and ESPECIALLY hitpoints are more a construct of the game than anything else. The simplest way would be to give NO skill points for levels 2 through X, where X is the minimum number of levels of the class you can have.

3) If you had a progression of abilities that you could produce by burning a metal, flaring could allow you to accomplish abilities another step up on the power scale (or a few). This would allow flaring off the bat, but also make it something that progresses with the character as they level up.
4) Each allomancer's body could have a "tolerance" for metals that only allows them to consume so much in a given day. This would create a resource management system similar to spells/day or power points (probably more like the latter as they would be able to burn metals for any effect they are capable of at any time). As they level up they would their tolerance would go up.

Dunno if any of my ramblings make sense or offer any help, but good luck.
And I hope that my ramblings help you bring it back closer to the books.

Byzantine
2011-11-03, 05:24 PM
(Gomenasai, I've been dealing with life.)

All of these suggestions are good, and I'll take it into consideration. It'll take quite a bit of playtesting before I'm comfortable with it, though, even if I were to take the changes to heart. I'm surprised at the popularity of this thread, actually.

I have no problem with departing from the fluff in terms of power (I had planned on creating a allomancer base/prestige class to allow for the super-stuff from Mistborn). THat said, I'm trying to keep the feel of allomancy close, even if you don't become a 'roid-monster by burning pewter. THere are a few things that I'll say now, I'm likely going to be very inflexible about. Acquisition of the materials is part of the feel, and limits how much you can get a hold of. THey'd be like exotic material components for spells.

My original plan was actually to provide basic (low power) allomancy via feats. It would be limited by the number of targets you can affect (without feats, practice through either skills or class-levels) and a relatively low bonus compared to the fluff. I'm sorry, but +20 from pewter to strength is a little.... much. In order to advance, you would need to either take levels in a base class (I'm thinking possibly something wizard-like in that you can either specialize and get bonuses, or generalist and use everything) or a PrC. THe PrC fits better thematically, and allow me to cram a bunch of nice fluff-emulations in a small space.

On that note, I'm mostly making the system for my game world, and I as a DM like dramatics, like Shadowrun. Taking the feat does not necessarily you have instant access to the powers; you need to actually earn them (or Snap, as the book calls it). And Snapping as an adventurer is actually a lot harder than it is if, say, you're a street rat that's about to get caught and killed. For me, it's as much a way to promote roleplaying as it is a new source of power.

Ironically, as a fan of the psionics system, I'm not sure it would fit in the goal of 'feel, but not power' for this conversion. On the one hand, the points system works (I was already going to use something similar), but on the other, you have to spend more points to get an effect that thematically you could do in your sleep (or with the tiniest bit of training). Truth be told, out of the 18 allomantic metals, only about half of them have combat use. The others are better off as skill bonuses, like spot and such.

What I'm generally aiming for for each part is: Scrimping for a longer burn, but less of a total boost. Burning for a nice, though limited boost. Flaring for a massive increase in the power you gain, at the cost of less time available. The current working limit for flaring is x5 (that is, you get up to 5 times the bonus, but you use 5 rounds at once, instead of one at a time). Regular burning is equal to roughly a 2nd level spell, though some of said burns emulate several of these spells at once. Iron/Steel are basically two parts of a powerful, metal only, Telekinesis spell.

I knew I forgot to mention something: The allomancy powers that directly affect the world only work on metal. Powerful against, say, a full-armed paladin. Not so much against a nature embracing druid. Not that big of a deal, but something worth noting. I'll summarize and grab the system I've been working on in my spare time to see what people think.

Byzantine
2011-11-04, 12:07 PM
The current super-short summary of Allomancy (d20)

REMEMBER: I haven't set a level limit for the power yet. I'm considering at least level 3 to take the feats unless given as a class feature.

Starting or ending a 'burn' (using the metal) is a free action. Flaring and scrimping must be decided at the start of a burn. 1 round of burning equals one allomantic charge. Charges are regained from the use of allomantic vials. Scrimping divides the power of the metal in half (rounding down when required, or to the nearest useable unit). Flaring multiplies the bonus by the number of charges used per round. Limit of flaring is x5 under normal circumstances.

Burning an improperly balanced allomantic metal sickens for 2d6 hours. Burning a non-allomantic metal is poisonous (DC 25 ingested, sickened 2d6 hours, 2d6 Con damage).

Possible bonuses for being misting: Flaring up to x7? More targets per action?Longer duration? Increased bonuses? Combination of the above? Only ones eligible for savanthood (i.e. more bonuses/always flaring to x2 with no negative)? Thoughts and suggestions on this would be appreciated.

Steel/Iron: Activated. Allows metal objects to be pushed/pulled as a move action. Range 60 feet (maybe more?). Lighter objects (and allomancers) are pushed/pulled at a speed of 15+5 per 15lbs difference (total, gear counts, as well as things bracing the pushed/pulled object). Max speed is 100, regardless of flaring (possibly more?). Max targets to be pushed/pulled per action is 2 (with ways to increase number of targets via feats, levels and stuff).

Tin: Passive. +4 (maybe +6?) to listen, search, spot. Sonic damage deafens on failed fortitude save (DC 10+damage, 2d4/1d8 rounds). Light sensitivity (perhaps light blindness instead?). 1 nonlethal per 5 lethal damage taken. Flaring grants Scent ability, +2 to Wis based skill checks (i.e. skills requiring increased perception).

Pewter: Passive +4 Strength, Dexterity, Fortitude, +10 speed, DR 2/piercing. Not disabled/dying at 0 or less. Fight past -10 (and die immediately if the burn ends at -10 or less). Resistant to nonlethal damage (not knocked out at NLD>=HP, maybe?).

Bronze: Passive. Detect Allomancy, 60ft range.

Copper: Passive. Protection from Detect Allomancy at 30ft range from allomancer. Self only immunity to Brass/Zinc.

Brass/Zinc: Activated (maybe passive/activated?). Not sure entirely yet. +4 (or +6) to diplomacy, intimidate and bluff both against the target? Unique bonuses each? They already have a myriad of roleplay affects.

Any metal not listed, I'm still working on. Perhaps a mistborn can only burn 2 metals at once, increased via feats/base levels/PrC levels?

My personal view on the different alloys and stuff: Setting specific. My world, Tallal, might include weather/temperature affecting metals. After all, the frostbite elves work with cryore (an ice-like metal native to the northern part of the continent), which feasibly could lower temperatures around the allomancer.

~Corvus~
2011-11-04, 04:38 PM
For the longest time after I read the series I talked with a lot of friends about the possibilities of this, and we concluded that Mistings would simply be a shorter class than Mistborn would. Furthermore, we must remember that Sanderson's world is fairly low-magic compared to D&D, so the comparisons for balance will have to be limited. We also decided that Allomancy, Feruchemy and Hemalurgy are all resource-based systems, not magic systems per se. Since metals are consumed by allomancy, used to store energies by feruchemy and release/unlock energies with hemalurgy, the "magic" is really in its enabler: metals. They still must be paid for, or otherwise could be made via fabricate or such spells.

I think making Mistings into an E6 class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215986) would work well. It gives the finished approach of a full class with fewer levels and more limitations but with the scope of something greater. Mistborn could just be a base class.

As for gaining base metals, you might want to do a bit of thinking... Remember that all of these metals and their uses came about because of a technology-based need for metals...and the metals became diverted from strict tech into fuel for the magic systems. In D&D, I think it would take a campaign setting to make this most feasible, and EVEN THEN, metals still have to be bought. The thing is, these metals will comprise most of the cost of an allomancer's equipment (Once again, even weapons were nearly always nonmagical).

Finally, the Mistborn series has a lot of influence from the Heist genre...so a team of heroes are like tier 4 or so casters combined with some tier 4 or 5 fighters, and a tier 3 caster (a mistborn) to back them up.

Hentai_BookStor
2011-11-04, 07:06 PM
this sounds alot like SEIKON NO QWASER to me, Alchemy and the ability to manipulate a specific element l would go and have a look it many help with any ideas to further your class


http://www.mangahere.com/manga/seikon_no_qwaser/

Byzantine
2011-11-05, 10:45 AM
I don't have much experience with E6, honestly. It's not much my forte. I will be fair, this is not necessarily looking for help with a mistborn/misting class, but rather balancing an allomancy system in which allomancy stands up to other character types. I already know that either mistborn will be a stand alone base-class with misting being a prestige class, or that they are both part of a wizard/psion hybrid. Templating allomancy sounds appealing at first, but part of the strangeness of allomancy is that it's powers can go completely unknown until they are awakened, if they ever are.

Resource basing is not as much of an issue as many people may think. Take a wizard, for example. There are many, many spells that require material components. A good portion of these spells are more powerful than others of the same level. There are a number of these in which the PHB itself states that the cost is negligible (i.e. no specific cost is listed), and you can always say you have them so long as you have your spell component pouch. Put into these terms, you still have to pay for the materials, in the form of the spell component pouch. Games with more realism may require restocking of said pouch. Then there are the expensive spell components. Is allomancy really so different from arcane magic in that case?

Please bear in mind, that I seek only to emulate the feel of allomancy in a d20 game. I do not seek to recreate the Mistborn series, as that is what Mistborn Adventures from White Wolf is for.

Wyntonian
2011-11-05, 12:02 PM
Just a thought, but I'd recommend treating steel, or whichever metal lets you push metals around and shoot them at people, like a warlock's eldritch blast. Mechanically, going pew-pew is fairly similar whether it's unholy/fey energy or a little coin thingy. I'd recommend letting them eventually make trip, disarm, etc attacks with their abilities. I know this removes a large part of their in-canon powers, but it would make for a more simplistic class. You could include a repel metal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/repelMetalOrStone.htm) effect at higher levels, or with a flare. Dunno how that would fit into a point system, but it's a thought.

Byzantine
2011-11-05, 12:39 PM
It's possible, though that would mean that you would absolutely have to take class levels in order to be an allomancer. I'll admit, there are things that you can/should only be able to do with training (see: The Horseshoe Trick), but at the same time, I wouldn't want to penalize a player for being creative. That's where a lot of the power of allomancy comes from, in my opinion; being creative enough to think of things that other people would overlook. (Again, see: The Horseshoe Trick.)

That's part of the reason why I'm trying to stabilize the system before working on classes. After all, we wouldn't have wizards if we didn't know how spellcasting worked (well, I suppose we could, it would just get a lot more complicated a lot faster). Perhaps a list of 'allomantic tricks' that you can learn, kinda like skill tricks?

I do like the idea about steel being like the eldritch blast, but I'm not sure that it'd work, unless you keep a bunch of worthless coins or metal balls around just for that. Since, technically, all it is is a one-way Telekinesis effect. Like Launch Item (Spell Compendium) on steroids.

NichG
2011-11-05, 01:05 PM
Alright, since the flavor of the setting doesn't seem to support a progression-based mechanic like most things in D&D, let me suggest something else.

None of the effects seem to be inherently very powerful unless you make the numbers big. Why not just make this a +1/+2 LA Race/Template? (+1 for Mistings, +2 for Mistborn). Maybe even +0/+1, but replacing your other racial benefits for the +0.

Its a significant cost for the versatility, and it lets you make the entire thing resource limited (significant at lower levels, and at higher levels you can just have as much as you want of stuff but the power doesn't scale). Then you just want to make sure that the effects are more about being able to do things than being able to dish out big numbers. Pewter seems like it might be the only one that really causes a problem with this since its explicitly a sort of instant super-steroid effect.

For Pewter I'd probably propose +2 to Str checks for Scrimping, the effects of Barbarian's Rage for burning, and the upgraded Barbarian's Rage for one round for Flaring. If you like a little more punch, make the Flaring one be the Frenzied Berserker's rage, so you just don't die for a round.

Byzantine
2011-11-05, 04:14 PM
Barbarian rage had been proposed by the friend on Yahoo. THe problem is that the inherent drawbacks of the rage do no apply to pewter. It does not change your state of mind. It merely augments your body, similar to how Tin augments your senses. It's hard to balance, because the bonuses may be small, but they are powerful. Perhaps knocking off the Fort save bonus and/or the dex bonus and.... hm. The others are already trimmed down versions of the fluff-based powers (some of which were already removed for balance sake). Perhaps make the DR contingent on flaring?

I'm starting to think that a template may be the only way to go, even though I much prefer the idea of a feat. Though, a feat would require more storytelling and a DM willing to hand out story-based feats. Fine, a template it is. (Race wouldn't work, since it's a genetic trait that can appear in anyone who can trace their history to an allomancer.) It would have to be acquired, though can be given sporadically under the proper circumstances (namely, either Snapping or being made misting/mistborn via larasium).

EDIT: D'oh! I just remembered one of the drawbacks of pewter: Resistance to NLD and ending a burn at less than -9. Resistance is not immunity, and you could very well end up passing out after ending a burn if you have taken enough NLD (see: Pewter Drag). Likewise, if you are at -10 or less when you stop burning, you don't get any warning that you may die, you just do. In fact, pewterarms tend to not know where their physical damage limit is anymore, especially when flaring. Perhaps on such an occasion, the DM should only tell you that you take damage, and they keep track of your total?

DracoDei
2011-11-06, 03:49 AM
Templating allomancy sounds appealing at first, but part of the strangeness of allomancy is that it's powers can go completely unknown until they are awakened, if they ever are.
That just means that technically it is an "acquired" template, rather than an "inherited" one. A character might start with it, or might gain it later. Of course this creates some problems when you get a player who (perhaps for pure RP reasons) want to play a character who is later going to become a mistborn or misting, but you can't have everything.

Byzantine
2011-11-06, 07:14 PM
Yeah. In general, it was going to be the type of thing that a player and a DM would agree on ahead of time anyway. Technically, this gives more freedom; the DM can give the template to a character that he feels qualifies for it anytime they have a moment to Snap. I should define a Snap next... And adding in the blue lines to metal objects when burning steel/iron.

The allomancer subtype is much like the psionic subtype; it merely means that the target has allomantic power.

And now, the first of two templates. (You are about to see what I was avoiding writing up the template.)

Misting
Misting is an acquired template that can be added to any giant, humanoid or monstrous humanoid. The creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature) must have either ingested alloyed larasium or have Snapped into their (existing genetic) power.

Size and Type: Size remains unchanged. The creature gains the allomancer subtype, in addition to any other subtypes it may have.
Hit Dice: Same as base creature.
Speed: Same as base creature.
Armor Class: Same as base creature.
Attack: Same as base creature.
Full Attack: Same as base creature.
Special Attacks: Same as base creature.
Special Qualities: A misting has all the special qualities of the base creature, as well as those described below.
Allomancy (Su): A misting may pick one metal from the list of allomantic metals. They gain the ability to hold and use an allomantic reserve for the selected metal.
Abilities: Same as base creature.
Skills: +2 to appraise, otherwise same as base creature.
Feats: Same as base creature.
Environment: Same as base creature.
Organization: Solitary, team (2-6) or same as base creature.
Challenge Rating: Same as base creature +2.
Treasure: Same as base creature.
Alignment: Same as base creature.
Level Adjustment: Same as base creature +1.

EDIT: The template will be getting a touch up in the first post. It should be completely finished within the hour, but give me two, since I'm easily distracted.

Byzantine
2011-11-07, 03:51 PM
Two templates? An organized opening post?!

Madness!

~Corvus~
2011-11-07, 11:12 PM
An elegant solution, Byzantine!

EDIT: Tin shouldn't cause light blindness, per se, but should cause sensitivity. Maybe perhaps require a Fort save to avoid blindness when encountering light.

Byzantine
2011-11-08, 02:04 AM
Thank you. I couldn't have done it without the others here.

Perhaps. It does seem like that would be a more appropriate choice. Maybe, once I write out the official paragraph; Burning tin increases the allomancer's sensitivity to light. Abrupt exposure to bright light requires a DC 15 fortitude save, or be blinded for 1d4 rounds. They also gain the light sensitivity trait. If the allomancer already possessed this trait, it then becomes light blindness.

~Corvus~
2011-11-08, 03:16 AM
Thank you. I couldn't have done it without the others here.

Perhaps. It does seem like that would be a more appropriate choice. Maybe, once I write out the official paragraph; Burning tin increases the allomancer's sensitivity to light. Abrupt exposure to bright light requires a DC 15 fortitude save, or be blinded for 1d4 rounds. They also gain the light sensitivity trait. If the allomancer already possessed this trait, it then becomes light blindness.

Sounds good. Bad for Orcs or Drow to burn, okay for humans.

DracoDei
2011-11-08, 10:19 AM
Should the appraise bonus only apply to thinks made out of metal?

Byzantine
2011-11-08, 11:16 AM
I'm considering that, though I will probably raise it to a +4 in that case. The appraise bonus is there mostly so that there's some change to the template other than subtype and level adjustment. Allomancy is enough to warrant a level adjustment, but at the same time, it feel kind of empty if that's all you get. After all, you don't even get ability bonuses, which is something players expect when they get a template. Then again, if you're mistborn, or a Thug misting, you already have some nice bonuses going for you. :smallwink:

I'm open to feat and PrC suggestions. I know there are some more things I can put into feats to help with emulating the feel from the books, I'm just not sure what they are exactly yet.

Currently in store for PrCs:
Allomantic Savant, a mistborn savant option.
Hazekiller, a PrC for those who wish to combat allomancers.
Allomancy Master, a path to powerful allomantic ability, like steel-pulling another's allomantic reserve. (level 15+)
Perfect Misting, power-enhancing misting PrC.

gabrion
2011-11-08, 04:21 PM
Great work so far. I was skeptical at first about a template solution, but you've done well with it. There are potential problems flavor wise with being something like a wizard with this template, but that's up to DMs to solve. If they want a mistborn game, presumably they won't have wizards running around anyway.

DracoDei
2011-11-08, 08:03 PM
I'm considering that, though I will probably raise it to a +4 in that case. The appraise bonus is there mostly so that there's some change to the template other than subtype and level adjustment. Allomancy is enough to warrant a level adjustment, but at the same time, it feel kind of empty if that's all you get. After all, you don't even get ability bonuses, which is something players expect when they get a template. Then again, if you're mistborn, or a Thug misting, you already have some nice bonuses going for you. :smallwink:
[/LIST]

I think in this case that you can leave out all the stuff that doesn't change from the templates, since it increases readability.

Also, I don't believe in restricting myself to what people "expect", in fact, I like to think that often I do quite the opposite.

Byzantine
2011-11-08, 11:24 PM
Great work so far. I was skeptical at first about a template solution, but you've done well with it. There are potential problems flavor wise with being something like a wizard with this template, but that's up to DMs to solve. If they want a mistborn game, presumably they won't have wizards running around anyway.

I wasn't too keen on templates at first myself, but I'm glad that it panned out in end. And very true about the flavour issue. DMs could also limit it, since it's acquired from such strange sources. Resolving issues via fiat can be handy, if heavy-handed.


I think in this case that you can leave out all the stuff that doesn't change from the templates, since it increases readability.

Also, I don't believe in restricting myself to what people "expect", in fact, I like to think that often I do quite the opposite.

Ha, fair enough. I'll get to work on pruning the unneeded parts tomorrow. I need a teeny break. 7 days straight work, and the system is shaping up nicely. Some playtesting, balancing the new metals, crafting PrCs... This is really starting to feel like a legitimate addition to the game.

NichG
2011-11-09, 05:02 PM
For Cadmium, be careful with anything that gives extra actions. Because there's a bubble, you might be able to do it as follows (still breaks the game for any high-op analysis, but it might survive low-op):

You get a bubble around you of X radius. Creatures trying to fire in have their attacks go through with no problem. If you try to attack out, your attacks and effects bunch up near the time gradient and interfere with eachother - the result of this is, while you may gain extra actions, if you attempt extra actions to the outside they all fail.

Mechanics: Creatures in the bubble can take an additional quick->move->standard->full round (for increasing burn rates) action per round. These extra actions can only target things entirely in the bubble. Side-effects of these self-actions that propagate outside the bubble are also nulled (e.g. if you want to Share Spell or deliver two touch spells a round with your familiar, it must be in the bubble too. This has weird consequences where you can, e.g., use the bubble to defeat Shield Other by luring an opponent into it)

For Bendalloy, I'm not sure that anyone would want to use it in battle, but it could be a flavorful self-Slow effect that also slows the progress of disease, aging, everything by (factor). Normally it just gets you killed in a fight, but if you're dying of your wounds it could save you long enough for assistance to arrive. I guess you could also sacrificially slow yourself to slow an enemy in the bubble. Maybe the same way that Chromium has the out->in is okay, in->out is limited thing, the Bendalloy bubble gives you an increasing miss chance for subsequent attacks in a round due to the possibility of slowed attacks hitting eachother on the way in (0%,10%,... max 50%)?

~Corvus~
2011-11-09, 05:28 PM
For Bendalloy, I'm not sure that anyone would want to use it in battle, but it could be a flavorful self-Slow effect that also slows the progress of disease, aging, everything by (factor). Normally it just gets you killed in a fight, but if you're dying of your wounds it could save you long enough for assistance to arrive. I guess you could also sacrificially slow yourself to slow an enemy in the bubble. Maybe the same way that Chromium has the out->in is okay, in->out is limited thing, the Bendalloy bubble gives you an increasing miss chance for subsequent attacks in a round due to the possibility of slowed attacks hitting eachother on the way in (0%,10%,... max 50%)?

Bendalloy should do the opposite of Cadmium: Any iterative attacks coming from OUTSIDE the bubble fail to get INTO the bubble because they bunch up on the time crunch. Furthermore, it would still slow projectiles. This could be useful to shield other people if one could shape the bubble into, say, a square (allowing a person to see and intercept arrows, for example, just before they exit the bubble "wall") It could also be useful for falling, right? Since the distance fallen is slower in time, what would happen? The bubble would fall...slower? is that right?

NichG
2011-11-10, 07:13 AM
Bendalloy should do the opposite of Cadmium: Any iterative attacks coming from OUTSIDE the bubble fail to get INTO the bubble because they bunch up on the time crunch. Furthermore, it would still slow projectiles. This could be useful to shield other people if one could shape the bubble into, say, a square (allowing a person to see and intercept arrows, for example, just before they exit the bubble "wall") It could also be useful for falling, right? Since the distance fallen is slower in time, what would happen? The bubble would fall...slower? is that right?

Bubbles where physics is different on the inside can be really mind-bending and counter-intuitive. Funnily enough I'm in a campaign where all elemental metals do different things when 'etherically charged', and this comes up a lot. We figured out how to make a reactionless drive using spinning discs at the border of an aluminum field (which in that campaign changes inertial mass), and an eternal fountain pump using the same idea.

Sorry, side-tracked there a bit. Lets look at the physical analogue of this, a black hole. If we ignore the 'ripping things to shreds' and 'frying with radiation' aspects of a black hole, whats left is essentially a field where time gets slower the closer you get to the singularity. What the black hole math tells you is that time gradients look at lot like materials with varying index of refraction do to light, except they do that to everything: light, matter, gravity waves, whatever. One thing you get from that is there should be direction-dependent reflection at the field boundary of light and other radiant energy, just like you get fresnel reflection at shallow angles from a refractive material. The thing would basically look a little bit like a kind of weird red glass globe (due to the time effect, light from inside will be red-shifted) On the inside, light will be blue-shifted. So everything should be tinged blue, and sunburn is a lot worse.

As far as how fast you fall, I think you fall at the normal rate as far as the outside world is concerned. My handwaving explanation for that is, two black holes from far away fall towards eachother with the same acceleration as if they were stars, because the entire fabric of space has the geometry for those paths. The 'nearby' structure of space doesn't really matter until the objects get very close.

That said, when you impact, it'll be weird. I can't figure out whether you'll be pulled towards the ground strongly, pushed away, or experience no real difference. From your point of view though, assuming you move with the bubble and the bubble moves at the same falling rate, I think you end up hitting the ground a lot harder (the impact is relatively faster because your timestream is slower).

Byzantine
2011-11-10, 11:21 AM
Back from my 24-hour-ish break, and I see people are already hard at work with Cadmium and bendalloy. Good work!

So far, as far as the conversion goes, the issue with some of the metals (like Cadmium and Bendalloy) is that they are not in the first three books. They are being introduced in the fourth book Alloy of Law which is in mass production stages now, from the sounds of it. If I knew how Sanderson was going to handle it, it wouldn't be as difficult.

These two metals should be double-edged swords, like the other metals. But there should be some benefit, at the same time. Then black hole example is a good one, especially for falling rates. Cadmium would stretch the local space-time ratio, making it pass faster for you. Technically, that would mean that combat would take place on two different timescales with sliders and pulsers in the party. But I, as I'm sure many other DMs would, would rather avoid that.

The inverse of cadmium (that outside attack bunch up at the wrinkle) sounds plausible to me, since they are going from a faster part of the timestream to a slower part. Of course, the two metals cross each other out if their areas overlap. (Else lots of strange things could happen, like effect before cause and so on.) I believe that we have a little bit of leeway with this, since it is technically magic in a magical world.

Hm... It would not affect your movement speed (especially not overland, since you actually walk less time during the day). Logic says that attacks in from the faster timestream would bunch up at the border. While you get more actions in the round, there is still a chance for the enemy to avoid your attack. (Miss chance like concealment, since the enemy as a split second to dodge your attack?) Thus, being in a slower timestream would actually be a boon in combat, since even if you get less actions a round than your opponents, their attacks bunch up, and you can see them before they happen.

Likewise, however... hm. Attacks from a slower timestream simply speed up. Hm...

DracoDei
2011-11-10, 02:34 PM
Sounds like you should leave those options alone until you can get a copy of the book.

Byzantine
2011-11-10, 04:39 PM
Probably, but either way, they're going to be hard to balance. And people wonder why I don't like futzing with chronomancy. :smalltongue:

Byzantine
2011-11-11, 10:02 PM
Alright, update for those that are interested in the project: My Yahoo buddy has Alloy of Law. (I guess it came out recently. News to me.) I am currently in the process of building cadmium and bendalloy.

Currently, this is what I know:

Bendalloy has a small range.
Cadmium can 'fill a room'.
Time bubbles are stationary.
It's pretty much impossible to interact with things outside the bubble.
The faster time is untargetable by the slower time.
Thrown/fired objects lose most if not all momentum, making ranged attacks from a bubble useless.
Bendalloy negates cadmium, but not vice versa.


It's sounding more and more like it's going to be 'separate combat rounds' sort of deal. The difference is measured in minutes between the different time-streams. For crunch purposes, I'm thinking 1 minute to 1 round, both directions. My buddy is reading the book more, so I'll be mainly getting information from him on the subject, but feel free to post your conjecture and ideas.

cnsvnc
2011-11-12, 11:15 AM
Since I've read AoL and find this project to be awesome but unlikely to be compatible to DnD, I'll write stuff about bendalloy bubbles. Trying to keep it clean, we don't wanna spoil the awesome tricks in book.

A bendalloy bubble is about 5 feet across. It can't be moved once created. It passes through things such as floor and walls. The time compression rate seem to depend on the amount of bendalloy being burned. 2 minutes compressed to 15 seconds is mentioned in book as something like a standard (can't tell for sure) but it's possible to compress it a lot more than just 1/8. There's a limit to compression but isn't specified. Outside can be seen clearly in slow motion from inside. If an outside observer is very careful, he might notice a momentary shimmering. Sound does pass to the outside, but it's sped up too much to be anything other than a momentary noise. When a moving object (such as a bullet) enters the bubble from outside it'll shoot thru the bubble with its normal speed and drops to slow motion again upon leaving the bubble. When it leaves the bubble, it changes direction a bit but will be moving at normal speed for outside observer. It takes a few seconds to create a new bubble after collapsing the old. Someone leaving the bubble feels a "jostle" but is otherwise unharmed.

A cadmium bubble seems to have larger numbers than bendalloy (mainly size and time compression ratio) but it's not really clear. To outside observers, everything inside this bubble is frozen, but can be effected from afar (for example shot). One of the protagonists can make bendalloy bubbles but sadly cadmium doesn't really feature much in the book. It's considered to be a very useless and embarrasing ability in general.

Byzantine
2011-11-13, 03:27 PM
I appreciate the information, cnsvnc. In light of this... It'll be interesting to balance, but I think I can do it. As 'useless' as it may seem, I actually kinda like cadmium.

Byzantine
2011-11-20, 08:14 PM
I'm officially back from my extended break, where I did nothing at all that had to do with allomancy. In fact, I was playing Dragon Age Origins. Nice change of pace that. Anyway.

Cadmium and Bendalloy are in rough balancing stages now, with my preliminary idea about them up on the first post. I made bendalloy a slightly larger bubble for the sake of the game. IT keeps the same rough flavour, but it's size is large enough to handle melee combat. As for cadmium.... I just kinda picked a size that sounded good. I'll probably make it smaller, but it's a good start.

I think this is about ready for playtesting which style of burning will work, as well as some of the complete metals, if anyone is willing.

Sovem
2011-11-30, 10:25 AM
I registered just to comment on this thread. Oddly enough (or not so oddly, seeing as how AoL just came out), I've been wracking my brain on how to convert Allomancy to D&D, too, and decided to google if anyone had made any progress. Personally, I think it should be a class, but I like your approach. With allomancy as a template, you can have rogue allomancers (Vin), Fighter allomancers (Kelsier?), etc. I like it.

I know that allomancy is pretty much an "you have it or you don't" kind of ability, as has been pointed out, but it definitely seems like a lot of the things mistborn are known for are learned skills. Kelsier was surprised when Vin picked up the art of coin-hopping so quickly; it obviously had taken him--and other coinshots he knew--some time to learn. As such, it'd be perfectly reasonable to have that as a Feat (or a Class ability, if one were to go that route). Likewise with pushing on more than one object at a time, using pulling properly in combat, etc.

I don't want to get off the subject, but do you know if anyone has tackled feruchemy yet? I've been trying, and I'm just not sure how to do it fairly. Also, I'd love to see your friend's work on biochroma, if there's a link.

Byzantine
2011-12-04, 12:07 AM
Thanks for the comment, Sovem. :smallsmile:

I took the template approach because designing a class around allomancy would be better done for 4e (a system I abhor, personally) due to it's variety of learning options. To share a little secret, I actually started with the idea of possibly making each metal a skill, but it quickly got over complicated. This approach simplifies it a little.

If I were to make it into a 3.X class (or advise someone who wanted to), I'd suggest making the entire class something like the rogue special abilities. You get a choice each level, with a high fort save and an average BAB. If you want, though, you can help with the Prestige Classes I'm working on.

I haven't started it, but I was planning writing on Feruchemy and Hemalurgy once I finish up with Allomancy. Feruchemy is considerably harder to balance, since it's virtually limitless, even if you have to give something up for a time in return. I'm half tempted to just call that a template+magic items, since there has to be some way to limit the metalminds.

The biochroma/chromaturgy hasn't been posted yet, sadly, but last I heard from him it was almost done. I'll PM you a link when it's up, since it'll likely be on a different forum. (Speaking of, I'm starting playtesting soon on Allomancy on the forum in my siggy, if you want in on that.)

Sovem
2011-12-04, 10:41 PM
I just finished Alloy of Law tonight (man was it good!), and the Ars Arcana at the end is quite interesting. It goes a bit deeper into the nature of the magics of Scadrial, and reveals a few interesting effects that haven't been seen in the novels yet. In fact, I'm not even sure how a few of them work (stores Investiture? wth?)

I might be interested in getting involved in a play test, or maybe even seeing if my DM will let me playtest it in our group. What kind of game did you have in mind?

Btw, how are you handling coinshots? I like the whole "speed 15 +5 per 15 lbs weight difference, but how does that translate to damage? Seems a few things would go into it--is the object small enough to do piercing damage, or would it just bludgeon someone? is it moving fast enough to really do damage? I tried looking into falling damage and falling object damage for inspiration, but since those don't have to do with speed or small objects, it doesn't seem too helpful.

As much as I hate to admit it, since it would make steel pushing as a weapon pretty useless in D20, but it's hard to imagine that a coin pushed with your own weight would really do that much more damage than a longbow or a crossbow bolt. Just did a quick google--an arrow flies at about 300fps, or Speed 1800, and a bullet from a handgun is a Speed 6600. Hard to figure that a coin traveling about Speed 100 would do much damage.

Byzantine
2011-12-05, 05:06 AM
The playtest for the moment is going to be pbp, episodic adventures, taking place at different balance levels. I'm currently working on an overall plot, but it'll take some time.

As for coinshots, that is an issue I've yet to balance. The system itself is balanced against the worst-case scenario; That is, people trying to coinjump/lurch themselves to 'fly'. If I allowed a greater speed, things would quickly get out of hand (besides, you can flare to get a exponentially higher speed). It, however, does not account for coins, needles and other small items that would feasibly cause damage with this method.

Perhaps an additional rule: Items that weigh less than three pounds move considerably faster, and do 1dX damage. Thoughts?

Sovem
2011-12-05, 08:23 AM
Well, here we come to a balancing issue of playability vs source material. In order for Allomancy to be useful past the first few Levels, it has to scale somehow. Yet, in the books, the mistborn are always facing other squishy humans, and so a 1d6 or 1d8 coinshot could be useful. Actually, I take that back--they're not always fighting humans. Against the koloss, it's pretty obvious that coinshots are fairly useless.

I could see this going one of two ways. We could say that a base coinshot of a small object capable of piercing damage at high velocities (IOW, a coin, or an arrowhead, but not something small and light like a paperclip) would do a base damage of 1d8, like a longbow. Flaring your steel multiplies the damage as usual, out to a max of ?d8.
Or, we could say it does a base 1d8, but adds your STR mod, or your CON mod, whichever is higher, to damage. What do you think?

Sovem
2011-12-05, 01:21 PM
(BTW, I'm making an attempt at Feruchemy, and made a new thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12327418#post12327418)rather than risk derailing this one. Take a look and feel free to use anything you like in your project!)

Sovem
2011-12-05, 08:53 PM
Something just occurred to me: when steelpushing against a metal object on the ground, the speed is always going to be maxed out. So the coinshot is always moving at 100 speed. Is that what you wanted? And how does the arc of their flight affect it?

Byzantine
2011-12-06, 12:04 AM
Well, here we come to a balancing issue of playability vs source material. In order for Allomancy to be useful past the first few Levels, it has to scale somehow. Yet, in the books, the mistborn are always facing other squishy humans, and so a 1d6 or 1d8 coinshot could be useful. Actually, I take that back--they're not always fighting humans. Against the koloss, it's pretty obvious that coinshots are fairly useless.

I could see this going one of two ways. We could say that a base coinshot of a small object capable of piercing damage at high velocities (IOW, a coin, or an arrowhead, but not something small and light like a paperclip) would do a base damage of 1d8, like a longbow. Flaring your steel multiplies the damage as usual, out to a max of ?d8.
Or, we could say it does a base 1d8, but adds your STR mod, or your CON mod, whichever is higher, to damage. What do you think?

I'd say straight Con, since you technically aren't physically pushing the item. Hm... I'd say it'd be more like a d6 or a d4, since the base rules allows for 2 pushes. Over all, if the creature has a natural armour bonus of more than... say 3, then the push does no damage. (Or, perhaps, it does a point less damage for each point of NA above 3?)

Or maybe, do up a table of similar items and list their damage values. A needle would do 1d2 points of damage, but would pierce through higher levels of NA. a coin would do more damage, but can't pierce through NA as well.


(BTW, I'm making an attempt at Feruchemy, and made a new thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12327418#post12327418)rather than risk derailing this one. Take a look and feel free to use anything you like in your project!)

Posted. :smalltongue:


Something just occurred to me: when steelpushing against a metal object on the ground, the speed is always going to be maxed out. So the coinshot is always moving at 100 speed. Is that what you wanted? And how does the arc of their flight affect it?

Ah, physics. Something that is rarely, if ever, realistically touched upon in d20 games. It is a good question, and yes, that was intended (after all, if you want to move slower, you can scrimp), but the flight arc more depends on the DMs style of handling physics. In general, though, you have to consider that a Misting/Mistborn would only push on the dropped coin long enough to get the upward momentum, and continuing to push after they start moving forward would slide the coin away.

Sovem
2011-12-06, 12:51 PM
Making a generic list for objects shot through steelpushing might not be a bad idea. However, looking at the weapon damage table, a dart does 1d4, and that's just under the power of someone throwing it. I think that the speed and force coins and whatnot are pushed with allomancy is at least greater than that. I wouldn't go any lower than 1d6 unless we're talking about something very small and light, like a pin.

As far as the ol' travel by coin pushing goes, we should probably just make it a flat 50 ft horizontal, or 100 ft vertical, to avoid bogging down movement with calculations.

Byzantine
2011-12-07, 07:15 AM
Fair enough. Maybe a d3 for a needle, then? I agree that 1d6 is the smallest that a coin would go. Hm... I'll have to think on it. With travel uses, I'm not entirely certain that's the right answer. It feels... I dunno, hollow. The way that I have steelpushing and ironpulling set up, the object affected travels in a straight line (not accounting for physics, of course, but you get the idea). I think I can simulate physics, though, for that. One moment.

THis model implies that the Misting/Mistborn has some control over their arc of flight: For every 5+5 per 15 lbs less (to a maximum of 200 lbs less) feet of horizontal travel, the item pushed/pulled falls five feet. When pushing upwards, 10 feet of vertical movement may be sacrificed for 5 feet of forward movement.

This way, if you are standing on a roof and steelpull on the gratings on the window across from you, you move forward at a full 100, though you do descend. When jumping, you can choose where you are standing relative to the coin, and thus control your travelling arc.

Sovem
2011-12-08, 12:02 PM
Eh, I don't know, that seems like an awful lot of math. Standard 3.5 rules don't have those kinds of calculations for jumping or throwing, they just have base ranges. Honestly, I think that's the better way. What DM keeps track of distance that rigorously in a 3D space, anyway, y'know?

Byzantine
2011-12-15, 09:31 AM
I really need to focus on one thing at a time, but man is world building a hoot. (Especially when you are creating templates, races and classes to go with it.)

I... personally keep track of the distance pretty readily, but I love my realism. Part of the reason why the flat numbers are so bleh to me. But I suppose I could deal with them. I think switching it up might be in order, though. Making the shorter distance straight up, since you have to fight the pull of gravity and... shiz. /moar realism

Byzantine
2012-03-04, 11:38 AM
Ooooooooooooookay. THis has been quiet way too long. Can I get some fresh/returning opinions?

And maybe some help with designing prestige classes, as I have never done that before?

Hipho
2012-03-04, 04:25 PM
Tried to read it. Brain burst into flames. But atleast I tried, right?

Kaurne
2012-03-04, 05:34 PM
Hmmmm.

To be honest, I'm not really sure. Sandersonian magic systems operate so differently from the Vancian magic (and related kinds) that are in D&D that I'm not sure you can properly integrate them.

My only thought on how to make a Mistborn character was to create a list of things you can do with Allomancy. Add these as abilities as you level up. If a player wants to do something not in the rules, it will be to the DMs discretion - this will simply be the 'basic moves' of allomancy.

Except that doesn't work at all. Allomancers have a limited number of moves - a huge amount of their abilities is environment related.

Mistings work fine, but I don't think you can feasibly work a Mistborn into the setting. A +2 LA seems a little low for the raw power of a Mistborn, but otherwise it starts to become a bit worthless. It is kind of in the void between template and class.

While I admire your efforts, and you have done a lot with what is given, I simply don't see this as workable. Magic in the Cosmere just works along entirely different precepts. Allomancy lies awkwardly between something that can be described with skills, feats and ability score bonuses, and something that can be described with spells. I don't think the core D&D framework is built to support that.

As for other magic systems in the Cosmere - don't even ask. Surgebinding, at least in the form used by Kaladin, could be simulated by a five level prestige class, each level representing one of the 5 oaths, and with flexible abilities applied to each level that could represent any of the 10 orders. The problem is that we know very little of what can be done with even Kaladins abilities - Even the best Theorycrafters at the Seventeenth Shard can only come up with 7 of the other Surges (knowing very little of their granted powers) with our best guesses. As for the 10 levels of Voidbinding, and Cultivations 10 forms, well, we have no idea what they do. Voidbinding might be simulated with specific Binder vestiges, but thats just guesswork at the moment.

Elantrian magic? Too flexible. You can literally do ANYTHING, provided you have enough time to set up the proper Aons. Add to the fact it is so strongly linked in with Sel, as a result of Elantris being the source of power, you can't put it in without butchering the lore.

Breath? That is far, far too complicated. You would need to build everything from scratch. Not to mention how messed up adding Breath would be to the standard D&D cosmology. Again, it is a bit too flexible. Every use would have to be calculated specific to that one action.

In other words, Sandersonian magic just works so differently, it doesn't really fit into the core structure of D&D, and I believe any attempt to put it in will just seem hamfisted and poorly worked out. Just my 2 pence.

Wyntonian
2012-03-04, 07:44 PM
I'll be entirely honest, I feel like an unholy mix of an essentia-type system, where one "invests" points into various metals at the beginning of the day, with different abilities as you invest more, and a warlock-type "pew pew blasty" sort of thing for coinshots is your best bet.

Byzantine
2012-03-07, 02:33 PM
Heh, it's alright, Hipho. THis sort of homebrew isn't for everyone. It's the thought that counts, on your end.

You bring up some good points, Kaurne. To be fair, I hadn't even considered balancing it against the traditional magic system of 3.5. Part of it is because I view it more as an ability of magical nature, rather than magic as a whole. I'm still pretty dedicated to seeing this through, though. For the mistborn, I thought the +2 LA apt. It's a stiff penalty for relatively little established power. Mistborns as a whole are stronger than Mistings, but they're not amazingly so.

If I were to make them a class, I'd have to say that'd they would likely be best for E6. Problem being that I'm no good with E6 classes. Honestly, my original idea for allomancy was a skillset that enabled talents similar to skill tricks. I might still bring that in if I can see my way to making it fit.

Hey Wyn. I'm not sure how I'd make that unholy beast work. xD It definitely sounds cool, but it doesn't feel right thematically to me. At least the essentia-esque bit. I could see the coinshot part as carrying around scarp metal or something like that.

On a side note: You know what? This would be so much easier if I did homebrew for (and actually liked) 4e.

Byzantine
2012-10-09, 05:44 AM
Picking this back up again. New house, new computer, easier access to the Mistborn RPG and plenty more playtesters.

To clarify an issue that had cropped up that I failed to address; I have little intention of this being compared to the standard magic system. Mainly, I am doing this for people who wish to use the wonders of Allomancy in their game world, hopefully without completely overshadowing everyone else. I call it a magic system for the fact that the name itself roughly means 'metal magic'.

Anyone wishing to help with the PrCs can give me their two cents. I'm going to have to work pretty heavily on them since I have no experience in PrCs. (I mostly craft base classes.)