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View Full Version : [3.P] New Item: Golden Satchel of Utlity



Zagaroth
2011-11-02, 06:34 PM
So I came up with this idea yesterday, and wrote it up quickly. Was originally thinking of it as a minor artifact, but perhaps a deity created the first one as an example, and encouraged others to find a way to make their own.

So assuming you COULD make it as a non-deity crafter, what would be the prerequisites & cost?


The Golden Satchel of Utility

This shoulder bag appears to be made of a golden leather, and examination indicates that this item acts like Bag of Holding. However, this is not quite correct. While one can put any item they like in the Satchel, no item can ever be retrieved directly. Instead, the total GP market value of all items placed inside the Satchel (including but not limited to weapons, trade goods, magical items, coins, gems, jewelry, and works of art) is added to a running total.

At any time, the bearer of the Satchel can reach into the satchel to draw forth any item that he might need. However, doing so costs 10x the original market value of the item. Example: If the party were to find itself in a flooding room, and needed Dust of Dryness in a hurry, the person bearing the satchel could reach in and draw forth a pouch of Dust of Dryness (normally an 850gp item), but it would remove ten times that amount (8,500gp) from the running total of value the bag carries.

The item drawn forth can be magical or mundane, and does not need to be an item ever before placed into the bag. The bag will not give an item that would bring the running total below 0.

The Satchel will not trade in/with any item with a market value below 1cp, depositing or withdrawing.

Specific/unique items cannot be retrieved from the satchel unless they have been placed into a satchel previously. This includes advanced versions of any race or monster body, whether by racial HD or by class levels.

Any item retrieved must be able to be held and carried in one hand (thus a 2-handed weapon could be pulled out, as you can carry it in one hand, but not a 1 ton anvil unless very strong).

Any item to be traded (Deposited or withdrawn) must fit through the satchel's opening. (Anvil probably wouldn't fit anyway...)

Each trade is a specific standard action, thus trying to turn the satchel upside down while focusing on how much water you want will not work. You can however retrieve a full water flask as a single action. Nor can it be opened up to be endlessly filled with water or sand or the like.

bobthe6th
2011-11-02, 08:13 PM
might make a stationary version, like a wondrous location from ebberon. make it like only twice the cost, and not need to go through the pain of having magic item emporiums in every town. the double cost would stop it from becoming a real industry. as is though, it would not be feesable as a magic item supplier, except with heavy artificer cheese. with lateral thinking and emergencies at high levels I could see it...

Siosilvar
2011-11-02, 09:04 PM
might make a stationary version, like a wondrous location from ebberon. make it like only twice the cost, and not need to go through the pain of having magic item emporiums in every town. the double cost would stop it from becoming a real industry. as is though, it would not be feesable as a magic item supplier, except with heavy artificer cheese. with lateral thinking and emergencies at high levels I could see it...

If it's just double cost, then you can craft whatever you like and put it in there, essentially buying anything you want at full market value (plus a piddling amount of XP). That's an industry by itself.
1For the item as written (with 10x cost and all), it'll probably have a CL of 15 - fabricate plus three spell levels to make magic items (or wish minus one spell level for lack of versatility).

That puts it at 240,000gp for an eighth-level spell at-will, but I'd cut the cost down to 40k-50k since you have to pay 10x market price for whatever you pull out.

Debihuman
2011-11-03, 10:47 AM
Interesting item but a very bad idea to introduce into the game, even with the usurious cost. Effectively, you lose whatever you put into the bag and lose additional money when you try to retrieve something. So if you put a couple of potions in the bag, what do you get for 100 gp of cure light? Pretty much squat. There's no guarantee the party will have put enough stuff in the bag to be able to retrieve anything useful. At ten times the cost of the original items, it's a shockingly bad trade-off.

However, in the hands of munchkins this becomes a way to just steal everything that isn't nailed down and put it in the bag just to have a handy way of carrying off the loot they wouldn't otherwise want and couldn't otherwise take. Is there a limit to size and weight of items that can be put in the bag like a bag of holding? If not, then you can imagine the havoc that will occur. It doesn't matter if living things don't survive in the bag because all that matters is the gp value of things. I see a lot of greed happening when this is introduced.

The stuff should go somewhere. If someone takes my widget and puts in the bag and I want it back how does that happen? Do I have to pray to a deity to get it back? And the stuff I'm getting in return should come from somewhere. Can you put in a couple of magic swords and get a famous painting? Won't somebody notice that said painting is now missing? GP value of swords doesn't change but the gp value of the painting could. Go into a town and start taking just one thing but take all of them. Now you have changed the economy. If everyone has a fork, forks aren't valuable. If no one has a fork, suddenly forks become more valuable.

You can create a lot of unexpected mayhem with this item. It could ruin a lot of well-laid DM plans. I'd be very wary of letting PCs get their hands on it.

Debby

DracoDei
2011-11-03, 03:36 PM
Eh, maybe some limits on what you can put into it (certainly no artifacts)...
But I would be willing to jump through a lot of hoops to give this to my PCs. This is EXACTLY the sort of item to give to uncreative players to encourage them to start THINKING. Of course, once they KNOW how to think... well, introducing a GP, weight, and size(the last two are critical to nerf pit-filling and BBEG crushing) limit on the items that can be removed from the bag should help things tail off maybe...? Or maybe just make it a "The GM giveth(since you would just have it as part of their starting equipment at the campaign's start) and the GM taketh away." sort of thing. Have it be on loan from an Epic level party who are currently spending a while chilling in their pocket paradise... and who aren't worried about it getting stolen from their weakling acquaintances because they trust the summoning spell they put on it to return it to them (the Epic party I mean) on command.

Cieyrin
2011-11-04, 10:52 AM
What happens when you want to pull out items without a cost, like clubs and quarterstaves? 0x10 is still 0, so you can pull out an infinite amount of them, chop 'em up and put em back in as fire wood, which does have a value. It's a long and tedious process but you can get something for nothing quite easily if you have enough downtime to abuse it as such.

Steward
2011-11-04, 11:07 AM
How much is the running total? It has to be pretty high to make this item better than just going through the list of Wondrous Items and putting them in a regular Bag of Holding (which has the added benefit of not eating your items and making you pay 10x the cost to get them out).

Yitzi
2011-11-04, 02:12 PM
What happens when you want to pull out items without a cost, like clubs and quarterstaves? 0x10 is still 0, so you can pull out an infinite amount of them, chop 'em up and put em back in as fire wood, which does have a value. It's a long and tedious process but you can get something for nothing quite easily if you have enough downtime to abuse it as such.

Or you could use the downtime doing something a bit more profitable than chopping firewood and putting the gold from that in.

Cieyrin
2011-11-04, 02:58 PM
Or you could use the downtime doing something a bit more profitable than chopping firewood and putting the gold from that in.

Make homunculi or hire commoners to do it, then, if you want to break the Satchel in leisure. Ignoring the option doesn't make it not a problem. I gave an example of such, another would be taking out ladders and disassembling them into 2 10 foot poles and a partial load of fire wood, which is 4 times the value of the ladder. There's exploits in the system and I'm asking what the OP wants to do about it.

Yitzi
2011-11-04, 04:05 PM
or hire commoners to do it

Why not just put in the gold you'd pay them?


Ignoring the option doesn't make it not a problem.

My point was that your "problem" pretty much boils down to "adventurers can turn downtime into money without actually adventuring." The satchel is irrelevant to that, it simply gives another way to spend that money.

Zagaroth
2011-11-04, 04:24 PM
Ok, posting from phone, so sorry if there are typos etc.

Well, in my artifact concept version, the bag leads to a deities safe, with autmatic defenes and alerts. Namely "do not want" items get shunted into oblivion, or spit back out of the bag. Will post details on flavor txt soon

So, how about "The satchel does not trade in items with a value of less than 1cp" ?

jiriku
2011-11-04, 04:57 PM
It is vulnerable to exploits, as Debbi and Draco observed. I have players who cram in every loose item in a dungeon, that would fit, and chop up the ones that wouldn't and make them fit.

Exploits that I'm considering:

Get rid of the corpse of any slain foe by shoving it in the bag and thus rendering it non-retrievable.
Retrieve "water" from the bag. Water is cheap. Depending on the rate and form of retrieval, this could be an endless collection of waterskins, or a geyser.
Retrieve stone, gravel, or dirt, usable to fill pits, bury opponents alive, or drop heavy weights on them from above.
Retrieve volatile substances like poison, acid, barrels of alchemist's fire.
More? Dunno.

Eurus
2011-11-04, 05:03 PM
A quick fix for several exploits is to put a weight limit on what can be retrieved per day, maybe something like 100 pounds.

Zagaroth
2011-11-04, 06:01 PM
Minor Artifact flavor text I had thought of before:

This item is a minor artifact created by a god of commerce and trade. His purpose was two-fold. First and most obvious, it was an easy way to perform trades at a high value of gain for himself, 10-1 on value being very good. The second was actually to help offset the inflation caused by adventurers returning to their home world with wealth mined from the elemental plane of earth, or using other methods to gain vast amounts of wealth in a relatively easy way.

mmm, so the potential fix combination I am thinking of right now:

1) The Satchel will not trade in/with any item with a market value below 1cp, depositing or withdrawing.

2) Specific/unique items can not be retrieved from the satchel unless they have been placed into a satchel previously.
((I do not mind clever players disposing of bodies this way, but they should be aware that any one with another satchel can then potentially retrieve that specific body. If using the minor artifact flavor instead of general item, then the option opens up to negotiate with the deity))

3) Any item retrieved must be held and carried in one hand (thus a 2-handed weapon could be pulled out, as you can carry it in one hand, but not a 1 ton anvil unless very strong)

4) Any item to be traded (Deposited or withdrawn) must fit through the satchel's opening. (Anvil probably wouldn't fit anyway...)

5) Each trade is a specific standard action, thus trying to turn the satchel upside down while focusing on how much water you want will not work. You can however retrieve a full water flask as a single action. Nor can it be opened up to be endlessly filled with water or sand or the like.

I don't want to do weight or total item restrictions, but I do want to encourage in-game creativity rather than break-the-system creativity.

DracoDei
2011-11-04, 10:36 PM
Retrieve volatile substances like poison, acid, barrels of alchemist's fire.

Poison isn't volatile(except legally), and I am the only one I know who even considers treating the other two as volatile.

bobthe6th
2011-11-06, 01:15 AM
acid actively damages its surroundings (exept a few things like glass and wax) making carrying sufficient quantities safly difficult. alchemists fire goes up in flames if exposed to air, so storage is also a problem. poison... is rather heavily illegal and hard to get.
also, a price would be needed for corpses... cause what would be the price of human body of a selected HD? this would make necromancy so much esear. "I want a one HD human corpse" or "I want a level 5 gnome wizard corpse(creat greater undead and you got a vamp or mummy mage)"

Debihuman
2011-11-06, 07:33 AM
acid actively damages its surroundings (except a few things like glass and wax) making carrying sufficient quantities safely difficult. alchemists fire goes up in flames if exposed to air, so storage is also a problem. poison... is rather heavily illegal and hard to get.
also, a price would be needed for corpses... cause what would be the price of human body of a selected HD? this would make necromancy so much easier. "I want a one HD human corpse" or "I want a level 5 gnome wizard corpse (create greater undead and you got a vamp or mummy mage)"

Anything put in the satchel immediately vanishes. You never have to worry about items that you put in the satchel. The bag isn't just useful to getting stuff, it's also useful for getting RID of stuff. That pesky corpse, stuff it in the bag and it VANISHES, never to be seen again (at least according to the original post).

That's when the DM has to figure out the costs of everything. It's a major headache. You've forgotten that everything taken out of the bag has a 10-to-1 cost of anything put in the bag. So, to get a vampire, you'd need to know the cost of a vampire and then the PCs would have to put 10 times that amount. It's expensive but as pointed out earlier, there are plenty of devious ways around that.

Smart players will stock up on plentiful but cheap stuff. It also allows them to cart off all those plentiful but heavy copper pieces that they find. They know they'll eventually get a return on their investment and they don't have to worry about encumbrance. They never have to leave anything behind.

Debby


The satchel doesn't have the limitations of a bag of holding and so it is subject to far more abuse.

BlackestOfMages
2011-11-06, 08:42 AM
@ debbi: You have a vampire you can pull fully out of a bag with one hand :smalleek: what level of strength does that need!

suggestion: items put in there with no monetary value or are not objects can just be retrieved, as from a bag of holding. Stops DM's from having a headache figuring out how much the latest victim is worth. :smallsmile:

bobthe6th
2011-11-06, 01:23 PM
a small corpse? that is a little over 50 lb., get your fighter to onehand it. but I wasn't sugesting grabing out an undead, I meant grabing a specific corpse to animate.

also, what happens if you somehow shove the bag over someone? they disapear to the vault of some god? greatest way to kill a BBEG ever!

Cieyrin
2011-11-07, 11:09 AM
@ debbi: You have a vampire you can pull fully out of a bag with one hand :smalleek: what level of strength does that need!

suggestion: items put in there with no monetary value or are not objects can just be retrieved, as from a bag of holding. Stops DM's from having a headache figuring out how much the latest victim is worth. :smallsmile:

D&D doesn't differentiate between lifting methods, plus bodies weigh ~40-200 lbs, typically. Somebody with a strength of 10 can lift a small body fairly easily and, since just lifting is double your heavy capacity, they could pull out a fairly heavy corpse, if barely. Nothing says they have to keep holding it, just that they can lift and pull it out. This, of course, doesn't include equipment, so you may need to pull out a naked or lightly clothed body and have the money saved in the bag be able to pay for said clothes, since those certainly have a value, even if a corpse, vampire or otherwise, may not.

Zagaroth
2011-11-08, 12:12 AM
OK, I've updated the original post with slightly modified versions of the limitations I posted before. I know it needs to be better defined, but I'm trying to figure out specific limitations that won't gimp it either.

Yitzi
2011-11-08, 09:41 AM
Here's some ideas for limitations that won't gimp it, replacing the ones you already have:
1. It will only accept coins, trade goods (including gems and art), and items that are commonly sold (e.g. magic items, weapons and armor, goods from the "goods and services" section, etc.) (And yes, that does mean that if advanced monster corpses are commonly sold you could remove one, but in that case it'd be cheaper to buy it.)
2. Taking out an item or putting one in is a move action; nongrabbable items (such as fluids) cannot be removed or inserted at all.
3. Taking out an item with less than 1cp worth still reduces the "amount" in the bag by 1sp.

Debihuman
2011-11-08, 11:23 AM
This does not work. "Any item retrieved must be able to be held and carried in one hand (thus a 2-handed weapon could be pulled out, as you can carry it in one hand, but not a 1 ton anvil unless very strong)."

I recommend the following changes:

Items to be placed in the bag can be no larger than the opening of the satchel, 16 inches by 12 inches. Retrieving an item from the bag is a full-round action. Heavy objects may require a Strength check to be removed from the satchel. Any object which is too heavy to be pulled from the satchel is not only unavailable but the gold value is still deducted from the total. Pulling an item out of the bag that is larger than the opening risks ripping the bag and ruining it.

[This is a caveat emptor warning for foolish adventurers].

Some of your information is contradictory: "The item drawn forth can be magical or mundane, and does not need to be an item ever before placed into the bag." vs. "Specific/unique items cannot be retrieved from the satchel unless they have been placed into a satchel previously." Also, "While one can put any item they like in the Satchel, no item can ever be retrieved directly." vs. "Specific/unique items cannot be retrieved from the satchel unless they have been placed into a satchel previously."

You should change it to following:

The item drawn from the bag can be magical or mundane and does not need to be an item ever placed into the bag. Only non-specific, non-unique items may be drawn from the satchel. Anyone who attempts to draw a specific or unique item from the satchel is Stunned for 1 round (no save).

[That should teach the greedier PCs a lesson]

You still haven't determined where the items go once they are placed in the satchel. Once an item is placed in the satchel, it is tithed to the deity of commerce and appears randomly on the Ethereal Plane.

Debby

Zagaroth
2011-11-11, 12:05 AM
OK, I worked on it a bit, taking some suggestions and using my own twists. Here is where I am at.



The Golden Satchel of Utility

This shoulder bag appears to be made of golden leather, and examination indicates that this item acts like Bag of Holding. However, this is not quite correct. While one can put any item they like in the Satchel, no item can ever be retrieved directly. Instead, the total GP market value of all items placed inside the Satchel (including but not limited to weapons, trade goods, magical items, coins, gems, jewelry, and works of art) is added to a running total.

At any time, the bearer of the Satchel can reach into the satchel to draw forth any item that he might need. However, doing so costs 10x the original market value of the item. Example: If the party were to find itself in a flooding room, and needed Dust of Dryness in a hurry, the person bearing the satchel could reach in and draw forth a pouch of Dust of Dryness (normally an 850gp item), but it would remove ten times that amount (8,500gp) from the running total of value the bag carries.

The item drawn forth can be magical or mundane, and does not need to be an item ever before placed into the bag, but cannot be a specific/unique item unless that item has been placed into a Satchel of Utility before. The bag will not give an item that would bring the running total below 0, and trying to withdraw a unique/specific object from the satchel costs 1 gp from the running total as a cumulative penalty.

The Satchel will not trade in/with any item with a market value below 1cp, depositing or withdrawing, nor will it trade in goods without a clear market value. Any attempt to deposit an undesired item will cause it to be instantly reappear in a space adjacent to the satchel. Attempting to withdraw or deposit an object that the satchel will not trade in costs 1 gp from the running total as a cumulative penalty.

Items to be placed into or retrieved from the bag can be no larger than the opening of the satchel, 16 inches by 12 inches. Retrieving an item from the bag is a full-round action. Heavy objects may require a Strength check to be removed from the satchel. Any object which is too heavy to be pulled from the satchel is not only unavailable but the gold value is still deducted from the total. Pulling an item out of the bag that is larger than the opening risks ripping the bag and ruining it.

Each trade is a specific standard action that requires grasping an item to place inside the bag or pull out of the bag, thus trying to turn the satchel upside down while focusing on how much water you want will not work. You can however retrieve a full water flask as a single action. Nor can it be opened up to be endlessly filled with water or sand or the like.

Cumulative Penalty: Any clauses specifying a cumulative penalty stack with each other, so if someone had twice tried to remove a unique item, and now tried to deposit a thoroughly rusted, valueless dagger into the bag would be penalized 3 gp. This penalty can bring the running total below zero, and will require bringing the value to a positive number before an item can be withdrawn again. Trying to withdraw an item when the running total is already zero or below also results in being penalized.

Group Awareness: Though not strictly speaking an intelligent item, the satchel none the less has a low level awareness, specifically it is aware of alliances, however loose or strained, and will keep the same running total (and cumulative penalty) for the entire party.

All items traded to the Satchel are deposited into a Safe Vault in the residence of the Deity of Commerce, excepting those items dangerous to the deity or his interests, which are instead shunted to a destination more appropriate. The location of the vault, and any item or persons with in the vault is unscryable by any means short of a Divine Power by a deity of at least equal Divine Rank.

Note that the guardians of the vault can eject any item they desire through any given satchel, and are not bound by the satchel’s normal limitations excepting the size of the opening.

Debihuman
2011-11-11, 07:02 AM
OK, I worked on it a bit, taking some suggestions and using my own twists. Here is where I am at.

I think that you have now needlessly complicated this item. You're a little inconsistent in spots too. I've taken the liberty of adding some game mechanics where necessary. The Golden Satchel of Utility is a minor artifact rather than a magic item that could be created by mortal magic.



The Golden Satchel of Utility

This shoulder bag appears to be made of golden leather, and examination indicates that this item acts like bag of holding. However, this is not quite correct. While one can put any item they like in the satchel, no item can ever be retrieved directly. Instead, the total gold piece market value of all items placed inside the satchel (including but not limited to weapons, trade goods, magical items, coins, gems, jewelry, and works of art) is added to a running total.

At any time, the bearer of the Satchel can reach into the satchel to draw forth any item that he might need. However, doing so costs 10x the original market value of the item. Example, if the party were to find itself in a flooding room, and needed dust of dryness in a hurry, the person bearing the satchel could reach in and draw forth a pouch of dust of dryness (normally an 850 gp item), but it would remove ten times that amount (8,500 gp) from the running total of value the bag carries.

The item drawn forth can be magical or mundane, and does not need to be an item ever before placed into the bag, but cannot be a specific/unique item. Furthermore, the bag will not give an item that would bring the running total below 0 gp.

The satchel will neither accept nor retrieve any item with a market value less than 1 cp. Depositing an undesired item will cause it to instantly reappear in a space adjacent to the satchel. Attempting to withdraw or deposit an object that the satchel will not trade also deducts 1 gp from the running total as a cumulative penalty.

Items to be placed into or retrieved from the bag can be no larger than the opening of the satchel, 16 inches by 12 inches. Retrieving an item from the bag is a full-round action. A character can automatically pull an item from the satchel that weighs no more than double his or her maximum carrying capacity. Pulling out an object in excess of that weight requires a successful Str check (DC 20 +1 per every additional 10 lbs of weight in excess). A character cannot move with an excessively heavy item. All the character can do is pull the item from the satchel and set it down. Anyone who attempts to lift an excessively heavy item is Fatigued by the exertion. Anyone who critically fumbles the Str check is instead Exhausted.

An object which is too heavy to be pulled from the satchel is not only unavailable, but the gold value is still deducted from the total. Pulling an item out of the bag that is larger than the opening risks ripping the bag and ruining it. Turning the satchel upside down and shaking it does not yield an item; nor can it be opened up to be endlessly filled with water, sand or the like.

Cumulative Penalty: Any clauses specifying a cumulative penalty stack with each other, so if someone had twice tried to remove a unique item, and now tried to deposit a thoroughly rusted, valueless dagger into the bag would be penalized 3 gp. If this brings the total value in the bag to less than 0 gp, the bag ceases to function until a minimum of 10 gp worth of material is placed in the bag. This material cost does not count towards the total of the bag, as it is a restart penalty.

History of the Satchel
Learning about the Golden Satchel of Utility requires a Knowledge (Planes) check DC 20.

All items traded to the satchel are deposited into a Safe Vault in the residence of the Deity of Commerce, excepting those items dangerous to the deity or his interests, which are instead shunted to a destination more appropriate. The location of the vault, and any item or persons with in the vault is unscryable by any means short of a Divine Power by a deity of at least equal Divine Rank.

A successful DC 25 Knowledge (Planes) check reveals the following information: The guardians of the vault can eject any item they desire through any given satchel, and are not bound by the satchel’s normal limitations excepting the size of the opening.

Strong conjuration CL 18th, weight 4 lbs.


Feel free to change anything you think I messed up.

Debby

Cieyrin
2011-11-11, 10:49 AM
My issue with the current incarnation is what, exactly, is the Strength DC for pulling stuff out? Picking up objects normally doesn't require a check, it's a matter of checking your Lift load as dictated by your Strength score. You use a Strength check to burst or break things for the most part.

Debihuman
2011-11-12, 06:20 AM
My issue with the current incarnation is what, exactly, is the Strength DC for pulling stuff out? Picking up objects normally doesn't require a check, it's a matter of checking your Lift load as dictated by your Strength score. You use a Strength check to burst or break things for the most part.

A simple Str check would be made only if you can't lift an object. Under Carrying Capacity, it notes what the max weight you can lift. See here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm "A character can lift as much as double his or her maximum load off the ground" so that would be the total he or she could pull from the bag.

The question then becomes is pulling an item from the satchel the same as lifting double his maximum load off the ground? A PC doesn't necessarily need to stagger around with the item; he could drop as soon as it comes out of the bag. Ergo, we need a mechanic for that.

I would allow the PC to try to lift an item that exceeded his limit by making a Challenging attempt (DC 20 +1 for every 10 additional lbs. in excess). So Medium PC with Str 18 can pull any item that weighs 600 lbs or less out of the bag, but would need to succeed on DC 21 Str check to pull out an item that weighed 601 to 610 lbs. Note that he can only drop the item once he's pulled it from the bag. He cannot walk with the item. To make things even more interesting, I would have the PC be Fatigued by the exertion whether or not he succeeded on the attempt. A critical failure would result in the PC being Exhausted by the attempt.

It gives the PCs a chance to do something that they normally could not.

YMMV.
Debby