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View Full Version : The Eviscerator Revisited [3.5 Base Class, PEACH]



Ursus the Grim
2011-11-02, 09:51 PM
Some half a year ago, I posted a solution for monstrous characters who liked the appeal of using their natural weapons. It was widely panned as underpowered, inflexible, and overwhelming. In that time, I've taken a couple of trips back to look at it, sketched out some ideas, and gave it a shot of good-old-kickass. I hope. So now, without further ado, I reintroduce the Eviscerator. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly.


The Eviscerator


"Take up your sword, human, if it comforts you before the end."
-Grim Cano, Werewolf Eviscerator

The world is a restless place. Even when the dwarves, humans, and elves are not clashing amongst themselves, they are constantly at war. Settlers and hunters attempt to expand into untamed wilderness, driving out the savage natives. Watchmen and militia defend small towns from dangerous raids by uncivilized monsters. Slowly, these conflicts tend to turn in favor of the civilized races, their weapons and armor improve and improve until hides yield to keen blades, and claws fall beneath a hail of arrows. Some of the sentient wild ones attempt to adapt, crafting or stealing weapons and armor of their own. Some individuals, even faced with the option of wielding these arms, shun them. They scorn the weapons of their enemies, viewing them as crutches for inferior beings. They much prefer to charge into battle, even if they take a few feathers on the way. The payoff comes when their claws find their way into the weak areas of scale mail, slicing through the flesh beneath, when their focused blows prove stronger than steel as they shatter blades. These few savage creatures are Eviscerators, from many races but of a similar combat philosophy.

Abilities: Strength is the most important for an Eviscerator, as it determines the damage he deals in melee, his ability to hit his foe, the save DCs for some special abilities, and his ability to grapple. Constitution is important as well, because many Eviscerators wear light or no armor and thus tend to be hit often. Dexterity may help the Eviscerator avoid unnecessary damage by reducing successful attacks. Dexterity and Charisma are both important for several of the Eviscerator's special abilities.

Role: An Eviscerator is almost exclusively a melee combatant, able to dish out plenty of hurt and receive it in turn. His unique abilities give him the edge in single combat, but when outnumbered his effectiveness decreases significantly. The Eviscerator is the one you want to send after the biggest threat, tying them up with a dangerous grapple or simply tearing them apart.

Background: Most Eviscerators dwell on the fringes of civilization's expansion, augmenting the front-line of the monstrous races against the encroachment of dwarven kingdoms, human empires, and elven republics alike. Eviscerators are generally sent on solo tasks to counter small forces or to assassinate important targets. As a monstrous humanoid moves along the path of the Eviscerator, his strength is normally recognized by his people. Many Eviscerators find themselves chieftain, leader, or at least a favored bodyguard to someone with the brains to lead the organization.

Organization: Eviscerators who meet often have a mutual respect for one another, once the similarities become apparent. This, however, hardly means they bond. Instead, what is initially a fight between two entities on different sides of a conflict often flares up into an intense duel to determine the strength of one over the other.

Alignment: Any. Many Eviscerators tend to take some pleasure from the visceral feeling of entrails in their claws, so the class tends to suit evil creatures. Others take a philosophical approach to it, feeling that in order to acknowledge a death one must carry it out with their own hands and accept responsibility. To murder someone from five feet away feels like cowardice to these few Eviscerators, but to slay them in arms reach gives their death meaning and the act honor.

Races: Most Eviscerators are born with natural claws. Common Eviscerators include werewolves, lizardfolk, and troglodytes. Smaller Eviscerators are less common, dealing less damage and being able to use less of the class' abilities, but the occasional kobold can be found dextrously avoiding blows while lacerating their opponents. A more traditional race, such as human, can be chosen, but any race without natural claw attacks often finds themselves disadvantaged, and tend to attract a great deal of unwanted attention.

Religion: Eviscerators prefer to rely on their own power than to beg some unknown entity for it. They do not deny the existence of gods, but they rarely pay them any due. Generally, religious Eviscerators worship the god of their race, though evil Eviscerators tend towards Erythnul, and good ones towards Kord.

Other Classes: Eviscerators often clash with members of other classes. They scoff at the Paladin's and Fighter's reliance on forged weapons, and distrust the unnatural tilt of the Sorceror or Wizard. Of the Divine Spellcasters, only the Druid may earn their respect. Eviscerators are known to prefer the company of Barbarians, Monks, and the occasional Ranger, because of their similarities in combat style.

Adaptation: The Eviscerator is designed to be a flexible class, good for exploration or war-based campaigns. While they can exist in any campaign where there are uncivilized races, their nature may not be suitable for all campaigns. At the DM's discretion, the class may be modified to utilize similar appendages (talons, arm blades) instead of claws.

Hit Die: d12

Starting Gold: d4 x 10 gold.

Class Features

Class Skills: The Evisceratorís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are as follows: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Skill Points at First Level: (4 + Intelligence Modifier) x 4
Skill Points Per Level After First: 4 + Intelligence Modifier

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Claw Damage|Natural Armor Bonus|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+0|
1d6|
+1|Claw Growth, Doubled Fury, Lacerate (1/day, d4 Con), Illiteracy, Improved Unarmed Attack

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+0|
1d6|
+1|Inexorable Approach

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+1|
1d6|
+1|Improved Grapple

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+1|
1d8|
+1| Lacerate (2/day)

5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+1|
1d8|
+2|Deadly Claws (magic), Bloodthirst

6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+5|
+2|
1d8|
+2|Lacerate (2d4 Con), Rend the Unreal

7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+2|
1d8|
+2|Lacerate (3/day), Maul (+1d6)

8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+6|
+2|
1d10|
+2| Improved Grab

9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+3|
1d10|
+2| Lacerate (3/day), Frightful Presence

10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+7|
+3|
1d10|
+3| Lacerate (4/day), Deadly Claws (adamantine)

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+7|
+3|
1d10|
+3|Lacerate (3d4 Con), Blood Runs Cold

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+8|
+4|
2d6|
+3|Torment

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+8|
+4|
2d6|
+3| Lacerate (5/day), Improved Disarm

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+9|
+4|
2d6|
+3|Lacerate (5/day/2d4 Con)

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+9|
+5|
2d6|
+4|Rend, Savage Revival

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+10|
+5|
2d8|
+4|Lacerate (6/day, 4d4 Con), Tear Asunder

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+5|
2d8|
+4|Deadly Claws (ghost touch)

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+11|
+6|
2d8|
+4|Maul (+1d8 damage)

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+6|
2d8|
+4|Lacerate (7/day), Bathe in Blood

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+12|
+6|
2d10|
+5|Apex of Brutality[/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Eviscerators gain only proficiency with simple weapons and light armor.

Claw Growth: An Eviscerator immediately grows sharp, strong claws when they take their first level in the class as their primal ferocity exerts the first signs of its physical impact on their phenotype. If the character already has claws, their current claws deal damage as outlined in the Claw Damage table for creatures one size category larger.

Claw Damage: As outlined in the table attack, Eviscerators of medium size gain two claw attacks that deal the indicated damage. Effects that increase unarmed damage increase this damage as well. Eviscerators of small or large size deal the damage indicated below.

Claw Damage for Small and Large Eviscerators
{table=head]Level|Small Claw Damage|Large Claw Damage

1st-3rd|
1d4|
1d8

4th-7th|
1d6|
2d6

8th-11th|
1d8|
2d8

12th-15th|
1d10|
3d6

16th-19th|
2d6|
3d8

20th|
2d8|
4d8[/table]

Improved Unarmed Attack: Eviscerators gain Improved Unarmed Attack as a bonus feat.

Natural Armor Bonus: An Eviscerator gains an increase to its natural armor equal to the amount indicated on the table, plus the Eviscerator's Constitution bonus.

Doubled Fury (Ex): When charging, an Eviscerator may make an attack with each of its claws, rather than just one. This ability does not allow the Eviscerator to attack with any other weapons it may have on a charge.

Lacerate (Ex): An Eviscerator knows how to make its prey bleed. Once per day and and an additional time per three class levels above 1, he may declare one attack as a Lacerate attempt. If the attack hits, the opponent must make a Fortitude save or take 1d4 Constitution damage, and an additional point of Constitution damage each turn for a number of turns equal to the Eviscerator's Strength modifier. The save DC is equal to 10+1/2 class level+Con modifier. At level 6 the base constitution damage is 2d4, at level 11 it becomes 3d4, and at level 16 it becomes 4d4.

Illiteracy: Eviscerators do not automatically know how to read and write. An Eviscerator may spend 2 skill points to gain the ability to read and write all languages he is able to speak.

An Eviscerator who gains a level in any class other than Barbarian automatically gains literacy. Any other character who gains an Eviscerator level does not lose the literacy he or she already had.

Inexorable Approach(Ex): An Eviscerator on the hunt is a determined creature, able to force himself to push through any obstacle. Starting at 2nd level, an Eviscerator may move through any sort of difficult terrain or magical impediment, without taking a penalty to movement or related to mobility. They still take any damage the impediment may deal.

Improved Grapple (Ex): An Eviscerator gains Improved Grapple as a bonus feat upon reaching third level. The Eviscerator also gains +4 to all grapple checks.

Deadly Claws (Ex): The Eviscerator's claws, through training and bloodshed, are not to be underestimated. At 5th level, they are treated as magic weapons for purposes of overcoming damage reduction. At 10th level, they are treated as being made of adamantine. At 17th level, they may strike incorporeal creatures as if they had the ghost touch special quality.

Bloodthirst (Ex): The wounds of an enemy draw out the great vigor of the Eviscerator. After confirming a critical hit, the Eviscerator gains hit points equal to the damage dealt. This ability only functions once every round, and any excess hit points are lost if it would cause the Eviscerator to exceed his normal maximum hit points.

Rend the Unreal (Su): The mundane world is often subject to the whims of the magical. The Eviscerator's determination, ferocity, and strength can reverse this trend. At 6th level, an Eviscerator learns to channel his might to shatter even untouchable arcane or divine energies. This ability replicates Dispel Magic, except the Eviscerator's caster level is equal to his Eviscerator level -4 and there are no components required for the effect to take place. The Eviscerator may use this ability a number of times per day equal to his Strength bonus. (Minimum once.)

Maul (Ex): Any time an Eviscerator of 7th level or higher successfully deals claw damage in a grapple, he deals extra damage. At 7th level, this damage is 1d6. At 18th level, it increases to 1d8.

Improved Grab (Ex): At 8th level and higher, an Eviscerator who hits a creature his size or smaller with both claw attacks may choose to initiate a grapple automatically, without any attacks of opportunity or touch attack. If the Eviscerator is at least one size category larger than the grappled opponent, he may choose to hold the opponent with one claw, leaving himself free to act normally but taking a -20 to his grapple check. An Eviscerator may not use Improved Grab and Rend or Tear Asunder at the same time.

Frightful Presence (Ex):
Whenever an Eviscerator charges or reduces an enemy to 0 or fewer hit points, all enemies within 30 feet of him must make a will save equal to 10 + half the Eviscerator's class level + the Eviscerator's charisma modifier. If a creature is slain to trigger this ability, the DC is instead equal to 10 + the fallen's hit die + the Eviscerator's charisma modifier. The Eviscerator may choose to make an Intimidate check in lieu of the static DC, but must use the result of his check, even if it is lower. If any creature fails their save, they are considered shaken for 5d6 rounds. A creature cannot be subject to this ability more than once.

Improved Disarm (Ex): At 13th level, the Eviscerator gains Improved Disarm as a bonus feat.

Blood Runs Cold (Ex): With a bestial howl, the Eviscerator rends all creatures in a 30 foot cone paralyzed for 1d4 rounds. A creature is allowed a Will Save of 10 + half class level + constitution modifier to resist. The Eviscerator may use this ability a number of times per day equal to its Constitution modifier. A creature who succesfully saves against the effect is immune to it for the next hour.

Torment (Ex): An Eviscerator is not one to leave a nearby foe alone. Any hostile spellcaster threatened by an Eviscerator of 12th or higher level suffers a -4 penalty to Concentration checks, and attacks of opportunity for casting a spell benefit from a +4 circumstance bonus. Furthermore, the Eviscerator may make attacks of opportunity on enemies taking a 5-foot step out of spaces they threaten.

Rend (Ex): Any creature hit by both of a 15th level Eviscerator's claws in a single round takes additional damage equal to twice the Eviscerator's claw damage, plus one and a half times his strength modifier. Thus, a creature hit by a 15th level Eviscerator's claws (with a Strength 18) takes 4d6+6 points of damage.

Savage Revival (Su): The ferocity and brutality of a 15th level Eviscerator is almost a fact of reality, an essence of the world that is difficult to erase. Once each month, when an Eviscerator is slain (including by death effects), he may resurrect one week later as if by the Reincarnate spell, with no loss of level, as near to the spot of his death as possible. The Eviscerator must choose to undergo this process at the time of death, at which point the spirit leaves the body, and the Eviscerator cannot otherwise be raised by any means.

Use the following table to determine the new form of the Eviscerator.

{table=head]Race|Percentile Result

Previous Race|
01-09

Bugbear|
10-19

Elf, Wild|
20-29

Elf, Wood|
30-39

Gnoll|
40-49

Hobgoblin|
50-59

Kobold|
60-69

Lizardfolk|
70-79

Orc|
80-89

Troglodyte|
90-99

DM's Choice|
100[/table]

Tear Asunder (Ex): In addition to taking Rend damage, any living corporeal creature struck in the same round by both of a level 16 Eviscerator's claws must make either a Fortitude Save or an opposed grapple check. The save for the Fortitude Save is equal to 10 + half the Eviscerator's level + his strength Bonus). If the save or check fails, the creature is immediately ripped apart and dies. The Eviscerator may choose to use this ability when grappling an opponent, at which point the opponent suffers a -4 penalty on the roll. This ability is usable 1/day at level 16 and 3/day at level 20. Corporeal creatures without a discernable anatomy and undead instead take 50 points of damage upon a failed save.

Bathe in Blood (Ex): Whenever an Eviscerator slays an opponent through either a critical hit, or its Rend or Tear Asunder abilities, he immediately gains hit points equal to twice the slain creature's hit die. Any excess hit points are converted to temporary hit points, which fade after one minute. The Eviscerator cannot have more than 150% of his maximum hit points through this ability at any time.

Apex of Brutality (Ex): The Eviscerator holds much more power than his size would otherwise indicate. For most beneficial purposes, treat the Eviscerator's size as one step larger. This gives them a permanent bonus of +8 to Strength, +4 to Constitution, and +3 to Natural Armor. They may still use weapons and armor intended for their natural size. They also deal unarmed and natural attack damage as if they were one size category larger, and gain the relevant bonuses to grapple, bull rush, and similar checks.

togapika
2011-11-03, 12:21 AM
What about an ability that increases their speed when chasing a target with low hp?

GuyFawkes
2011-11-03, 01:09 AM
What about an ability that increases their speed when chasing a target with low hp?

Hehe or an ability that damages the target if he tries to move? :smallbiggrin: Kidding aside, what togapika said could be pretty useful, synergizing with Lacerate, and indeed be appropriate fluffwise.

At a cursory reading, this seems like a pretty solid melee natural weapon class. Good HD, and the good Fort and Ref saves are logical. I am not one to comment on the numbers, but the effects the abilities are supposed to do look good and match the fluff. The claw attacks and grappling augmentation abilities look pretty solid. Love the Savage Revival ability, however the table is still not up.

With abilities like Blood Runs Cold, Torment, and Frightful Presence, I can see a trend for the class to thrive on fear and intimidation. As a suggestion, it would be nice to see some ability that adds bonus to Intimidate checks that scales with level. Fluffwise it's like the reputation of the Eviscerator that affects the people around him, such that when he taunts you, you know he could do it.

Also, I'm thinking it would be nice to add a bonus to Frightful Presence when the enemy falls due to the Tear Asunder ability, or maybe even stack with the effect of a previous instance of Frightful presence, like up the severity of the fear effect. The savagery of the act does warrant something to that effect, non?

Oh, and the Apex of Brutality doesn't seem to have a description.

Overall, as a melee user, I like the class, and could certainly see myself using this at some point. :smallwink:

YouLostMe
2011-11-03, 01:25 AM
At a glance, I see three active abilities. Three. The rest are passives and passive contingents.

I do understand the need for these passive grapple bonuses and stabbing bonuses, but I'd really prefer to see an eviscerator with different possible tactics--jumping in a line and hitting everyone within it, using dead bodies as shields, knockdown/knockback effects, spin attacks, and such.

Ursus the Grim
2011-11-03, 07:52 AM
What about an ability that increases their speed when chasing a target with low hp?

Hm. Thats not a bad idea. The fluff certainly calls for it. I'll consider it.



Love the Savage Revival ability, however the table is still not up.

With abilities like Blood Runs Cold, Torment, and Frightful Presence, I can see a trend for the class to thrive on fear and intimidation. As a suggestion, it would be nice to see some ability that adds bonus to Intimidate checks that scales with level. Fluffwise it's like the reputation of the Eviscerator that affects the people around him, such that when he taunts you, you know he could do it.

. . . .

Oh, and the Apex of Brutality doesn't seem to have a description.

Yeah, I went to bed and gave up on that for the night. Essentially, Savage Revival gives you an equal chance of Bugbear, Kobold, Lizardfolk, Wild Elf, Wood Elf, Orc, Gnoll, Hobgoblin, Troglodyte, and Previous Race. DM's choice appears on there, of course. I know reincarnate isn't well-liked by most, but consider it a trade-off with being able to self-revive.

May very well brew up something like that. I'm getting to the point where I'm afraid of making it too powerful now. After all, if somebody likes it, its got to be broken, right?

Apex of Brutality added. Basically a permanent Enlarge effect without actually changing size.


At a glance, I see three active abilities. Three. The rest are passives and passive contingents.

I do understand the need for these passive grapple bonuses and stabbing bonuses, but I'd really prefer to see an eviscerator with different possible tactics--jumping in a line and hitting everyone within it, using dead bodies as shields, knockdown/knockback effects, spin attacks, and such.

Some of the passives are meant to encourage an active option that already exists.

Strictly New Abilities:
Lacerate, Rend the Unreal, Blood Runs Cold,
Combat Options encouraged by Passives:
Charging, Sundering, Grappling

So yeah, you're right. Not much in terms of active abilities. I'm considering the following, based on current feedback.

Intimidate Check to cause Panic.
Whirlwind Attack for Free.
Single attack to cause the Staggered condition.
Sudden Leap-like ability.

I'm trying to hold some semblance of verisimilitude. No "Wind Scar" or "Iron Reaver Soul Stealer" effects, but I might be able to fluff that line attack. Okay.

Fearsome Charge (Ex):
The Eviscerator is unhindered by defensive formations. As a full-round action, he may move up to twice his speed in a straight line, and make an attack against any foe he would threaten at any point during the movement. If he ends the movement in a square from which he threatens an opponent, he may then make a full attack as if he had charged. This ability triggers his Frightful Presence, and thus opponents must make their Will Saves before resolving any attacks of opportunity.

GuyFawkes
2011-11-03, 09:22 AM
Yeah, I went to bed and gave up on that for the night. Essentially, Savage Revival gives you an equal chance of Bugbear, Kobold, Lizardfolk, Wild Elf, Wood Elf, Orc, Gnoll, Hobgoblin, Troglodyte, and Previous Race. DM's choice appears on there, of course. I know reincarnate isn't well-liked by most, but consider it a trade-off with being able to self-revive.

May very well brew up something like that. I'm getting to the point where I'm afraid of making it too powerful now. After all, if somebody likes it, its got to be broken, right?

I might not be the best judge with it, but that seems a fair trade-off for reincarnation.


Apex of Brutality added. Basically a permanent Enlarge effect without actually changing size.

I like it. And it's certainly not game breaking for a capstone. :smalltongue:


So yeah, you're right. Not much in terms of active abilities. I'm considering the following, based on current feedback.

Intimidate Check to cause Panic.
Whirlwind Attack for Free.
Single attack to cause the Staggered condition.
Sudden Leap-like ability.

These look good, especially the Whirlwind Attack. The class could certainly use some attacks against multiple enemies. Also, something to think about would be active abilities that trigger off of enemies that are under fear effects.



Fearsome Charge (Ex):
The Eviscerator is unhindered by defensive formations. As a full-round action, he may move up to twice his speed in a straight line, and make an attack against any foe he would threaten at any point during the movement. If he ends the movement in a square from which he threatens an opponent, he may then make a full attack as if he had charged. This ability triggers his Frightful Presence, and thus opponents must make their Will Saves before resolving any attacks of opportunity.

This looks pretty nice. One question, do you also provoke AoO from this?

Keinnicht
2011-11-03, 01:21 PM
I really like this idea. Although if you want to let the Eviscerator change up some tactics, maybe some custom maneuvers and stances ToB style would work?

arguskos
2011-11-03, 01:26 PM
Pounce (Ex): When charging, an Eviscerator may make an attack with each of its claws, rather than just one.
This is not what Pounce actually does. Pounce (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#pounce) is a clear ability with a specific definition. Either use that or change this ability to be limited as you have it.

Please add Claw Growth or whatever to Level 1 Special, just to make it super clear that if you don't have claws, you grow them at level 1. Some folks might miss that.

Generally, I'm underwhelmed. It just feels... boring to play. I don't see this being super exciting and it doesn't grab my attention. I can take a longer and deeper look if you wish though.

EDIT: This is also somewhat poorly edited, with a great deal of confusing abilities that don't function the way they should and unclear statements. Yeah, I'm just going to go ahead and critique it more in depth in a bit, cause it reaaaaally needs it. If Milskaisdith was still around, I'd get him in here, he'd be perfect here.

Ursus the Grim
2011-11-03, 01:29 PM
These look good, especially the Whirlwind Attack. The class could certainly use some attacks against multiple enemies. Also, something to think about would be active abilities that trigger off of enemies that are under fear effects.

That's a brilliant idea, now that I think about it. Perhaps a sneak attack like mechanic to add even more damage on when attacking fear'ed enemies? My only concern here would be that this class is near useless against constructs (aside from the adamantine claws), as its abilities are crit and blood-reliant. Focusing on the fear abilities further wouldn't fix that problem.


This looks pretty nice. One question, do you also provoke AoO from this?

Yes. Though I suppose its not explicitly stated, the movement can provoke Attacks of Opportunity. Assuming, of course, that they pass their Will Saves.


I really like this idea. Although if you want to let the Eviscerator change up some tactics, maybe some custom maneuvers and stances ToB style would work?

I thought long and hard about making this a martial adept class. The problem? Creating a whole new discipline (or two) is really difficult, and makes it less accessible to people who might otherwise use it. Tiger Claw and perhaps Stone Dragon or Shadow Hand are the only disciplines I can imagine being utilized, and they don't mesh well with the class' current abilities. I fear it would also make it less attractive as a cross-classing possibility. Maneuvers are a lot less attractive when you're getting Steel Wind as an ECL 10 creature that has pounce anyway.


This is not what Pounce actually does. Pounce (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#pounce) is a clear ability with a specific definition. Either use that or change this ability to be limited as you have it.

Please add Claw Growth or whatever to Level 1 Special, just to make it super clear that if you don't have claws, you grow them at level 1. Some folks might miss that.

Generally, I'm underwhelmed. It just feels... boring to play. I don't see this being super exciting and it doesn't grab my attention. I can take a longer and deeper look if you wish though.

This is relevant, certainly. I have wrestled with that point, though. Making it standard pounce might make this even more attractive than Level 1 Barbarian for an ubercharger dip (as it gives you two more attacks) which is not something I'd like to encourage. On the other hand, if the creature has more than two claws, I'd have to be clear that they get an attack with each one. I'll have to reconsider my previous decision though, as you raise a valid point.

That vagueness is a relic of the original incarnation, which was written assuming the race had claws, and scaled down the damage if they didn't. After feedback, I reversed it, making standard races the rule, and clawed races the exception. I'll go clarify that.

I appreciate your feedback, even if I am disappointed in your response. The fact that you were willing to help something that didn't appeal to you is testament to your character. :smallsmile:

Now, I've got to go think long and hard about if this class actually needs more abilities.

arguskos
2011-11-03, 01:55 PM
This is relevant, certainly. I have wrestled with that point, though. Making it standard pounce might make this even more attractive than Level 1 Barbarian for an ubercharger dip (as it gives you two more attacks) which is not something I'd like to encourage. On the other hand, if the creature has more than two claws, I'd have to be clear that they get an attack with each one. I'll have to reconsider my previous decision though, as you raise a valid point.
A piece of advice from someone who's made something like seven base classes, to generally solid reception: don't worry about what people are going to do to potentially abuse your work. Just make something that stands alone well.

Giving this class pounce would not be game-breaking. Given that you can ALREADY get multiple attacks with Barb 1 thanks to Whirling Frenzy and Pounce, I don't see how this is any more dangerous. So you get a pair of secondary attacks that are hitting at -5 and dealing relatively low damage. Sure, you can pimp it out, but you as the designer cannot ASSUME everyone will do so. :smallwink:

Just give it Pounce. It's a nice ability and isn't broken.


That vagueness is a relic of the original incarnation, which was written assuming the race had claws, and scaled down the damage if they didn't. After feedback, I reversed it, making standard races the rule, and clawed races the exception. I'll go clarify that.
Good.


I appreciate your feedback, even if I am disappointed in your response. The fact that you were willing to help something that didn't appeal to you is testament to your character. :smallsmile:
Honestly is better than not. I could have lied and sold you a saccharine story about how this is golden and I love it, but it'd be a lie and you wouldn't benefit from it, so why bother?


Now, I've got to go think long and hard about if this class actually needs more abilities.
Before you start changing things, give me a few hours to work out my full critique. :smallwink:

arguskos
2011-11-03, 02:54 PM
Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly.
You asked for it.

Note: I'm not being mean on purpose, but I am being harsh in order to drive points home. It's not personal nor meant to make you go "man, he's an *******". :smallwink:


Hit Die: d12

Starting Gold: d4 x 10 gold.
Ok, so, it's tough but poor. Obviously meant to be a wildsman. As a note, the Barbarian gets more than this. Just a heads up.


Class Skills: The Evisceratorís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are as follows: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Skill Points at First Level: (4 + Intelligence Modifier) x 4
Skill Points Per Level After First: 4 + Intelligence Modifier
I see no serious issues here, though it's pretty light overall. I do question Profession, on the basis of "this is a wildman, why does he have profession?"


{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Claw Damage|Natural Armor Bonus|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+0|
1d6|
+1|Doubled Fury, Lacerate (1/day, d4 Con), Illiteracy

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+0|
1d6|
+1|Inexorable Approach

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+1|
1d6|
+1|Improved Grapple

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+1|
1d8|
+1| Lacerate (d6 Con)

5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+1|
1d8|
+2|Deadly Claws (magic), Bloodthirst

6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+5|
+2|
1d8|
+2|Rend the Unreal

7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+2|
1d8|
+2|Maul (+1d6)

8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+6|
+2|
1d10|
+2| Improved Grab

9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+3|
1d10|
+2| Lacerate (3/day), Frightful Presence

10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+7|
+3|
1d10|
+3| Deadly Claws (adamantine)

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+7|
+3|
1d10|
+3|Blood Runs Cold

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+8|
+4|
2d6|
+3|Torment

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+8|
+4|
2d6|
+3| Improved Sunder

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+9|
+4|
2d6|
+3|Lacerate (5/day/2d4 Con)

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+9|
+5|
2d6|
+4|Rend, Savage Revival

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+10|
+5|
2d8|
+4|Tear Asunder

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+5|
2d8|
+4|Deadly Claws (ghost touch)

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+11|
+6|
2d8|
+4|Maul (+1d8 damage)

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+6|
2d8|
+4|Bathe in Blood

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+12|
+6|
2d10|
+5|Apex of Brutality[/table]
Some things here are good, others are not.

Good:
-Something every level that isn't a flat number boost. This is where a LOT of people fall flat and you didn't. Well done.
-You actually included full BAB. Sometimes this doesn't happen. It's... yeah.

Bad:
-The natural armor scales so poorly it may as well not be there. Seriously, you could speed this up to a 3 level progression (so, +1 at 1st, +2 at 4th, +3 at 7th, etc) and not significantly alter the power of the class. I highly recommend it.
-Also, I notice that there are two levels where you get a specific feat and that's it. I... sincerely hope those are abilities that give a feat and something else, and are just poorly named. Otherwise, it's a bonus feat the game chose for you, and given that one is super late in the class, that's not a good thing.


Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Eviscerators gain only proficiency with simple weapons and light armor.
I know this is a wildman, but, uh, the Barbarian gets martial and medium. Just sayin'.


Claw Growth: An Eviscerator immediately grows sharp, strong claws when they take their first level in the class. If the character already has claws, their current claws deal damage as outlined in the Claw Damage table for creatures one size category larger.
Very clear, very simple.

Claw Damage: As outlined in the table above, Eviscerators of medium size gain two claw attacks that deal the indicated damage. Effects that increase unarmed damage increase this damage as well. Eviscerators are treated as having Improved Unarmed Attack for all purposes, including those requiring it as a prerequisite. Eviscerators of small or large size deal the damage indicated below.[/quote]
...just GIVE them IUS. Why dance around it? Just give them the damn feat.


Claw Damage for Small and Large Eviscerators
{table=head]Level|Small Claw Damage|Large Claw Damage

1st-3rd|
1d4|
1d8

4th-7th|
1d6|
2d6

8th-11th|
1d8|
2d8

12th-15th|
1d10|
3d6

16th-19th|
2d6|
3d8

20th|
2d8|
4d8[/table]
This seems fine.


Natural Armor Bonus: An Eviscerator gains an increase to its natural armor equal to the amount indicated on the table, plus the Eviscerator's Constitution bonus. If the Eviscerator does not have natural armor, it now gains it, using the value calculated.
Con bonus is nice. However, the NA bonus can still be safely increased (because not every Eviscerator will have great Con, and Con is not a stat people really buff, on the basis of "well, it doesn't really do anything but HP". You already have a d12, you're covered with an 18 Con.

Also, the last sentence is irrelevant. All creatures have a natural armor score, even if unlisted. It's just +0 unless otherwise stated.


Doubled Fury (Ex): When charging, an Eviscerator may make an attack with each of its claws, rather than just one. This ability does not allow the Eviscerator to attack with any other weapons it may have on a charge.
I REALLY disagree with this not being Pounce. It's your decision, but Pounce isn't overpowered and would be an excellent advantage for a warrior to have.


Lacerate (Ex): An Eviscerator knows how to make its prey bleed. Once per day, he may declare one attack as a Lacerate attempt. If the attack hits, the opponent must make a Fortitude save or take 1d4 Constitution damage, and an additional point of damage each turn for a number of turns equal to the Eviscerator's Dexterity. The save DC is equal to the Eviscerator's class level plus his Dexterity bonus. At 4th level, the Constitution damage increases to d6, at 9th level, the Eviscerator may use this ability three times per day, and at 14th level, the Eviscerator may use it 5/day and deal 2d4 Constitution damage.
My god, terrible, terrible damage it's full of stars!

Ok, here's some issues:
1. Why is the save non-standard? Standarize it to DC 10+1/2 level+stat mod. There's a reason it's done that way.
2. Why does this run on Dex? This would have been a brilliant place to work in a Con dependency, but you didn't. Makes very little sense. Focus the class a little here! Str/Con or Str/Dex, pick one.
3. So few uses and such a low save (really, level+mod is a TERRIBLE save) makes this a glass cannon ability. Please, increase the frequency that you acquire more uses. Level 5 is good for 2/day, level 13 for 4/day, and 17 for 5/day.
4. The damage dice progression is super jacked up. Standardize it across more levels. Makes it seem less schizophrenic. Perhaps level 6 is 2d4, level 11 is 3d4, and level 16 is 4d4?


Illiteracy: Eviscerators do not automatically know how to read and write. An Eviscerator may spend 2 skill points to gain the ability to read and write all languages he is able to speak.

An Eviscerator who gains a level in any class other than Barbarian automatically gains literacy. Any other character who gains an Eviscerator level does not lose the literacy he or she already had.
I hate illiteracy. I know this is entirely flavor, but it just bugs me.


Inexorable Approach(Ex): An Eviscerator on the hunt is a determined creature, able to force himself to push through any obstacle. Starting at 2nd level, an Eviscerator may move through any sort of impediment, magical or otherwise, without taking a penalty to movement or related to mobility. They still take any damage the impediment may deal.
You are aware this lets them move through solid objects, walls of force, and similar obstacles, right (I bet you didn't intend that)? Perhaps a better way of saying this is that they ignore movement penalties due to terrain (at higher levels, add an ability that permits them to ignore movement penalties from magical sources?).

Also, what's the lore here? So far, we've gotten a physical brute, Wolverine sans healing really, and now we're moving through objects? Very confusing. A touch more lore linking this to the rest of the class would not be amiss.


Improved Grapple (Ex): An Eviscerator gains Improved Grapple as a bonus feat upon reaching third level.
Do not give specific bonus feats. Either give them options or make this a minor grapple-related ability that happens to grant the feat too.


Deadly Claws (Ex): The Eviscerator's claws, through training and bloodshed, are not to be underestimated. At 5th level, they are treated as magic weapons for purposes of overcoming damage reduction. At 10th level, they are treated as being made of adamantine. At 17th level, they may strike incorporeal creatures as if they had the ghost touch special quality.
Seems fine, even if the progression is messy (again, why is this not even?). Ghost Touch could be a bit sooner, perhaps 15.


Bloodthirst (Ex): The wounds of an enemy draw out the great vigor of the Eviscerator. After confirming a critical hit, the Eviscerator gains hit points equal to the damage dealt. This ability only functions once every round, and any excess hit points are lost if it would cause the Eviscerator to exceed his normal maximum hit points.
Ok, seems fine, if unexciting. Can't think of how this would ever be problematic or anything, so it's all good. I guess.


Rend the Unreal (Ex): The mundane world is often subject to the whims of the magical. The Eviscerator's determination, ferocity, and strength can reverse this trend. At 6th level, an Eviscerator learns to channel his might to shatter even untouchable arcane or divine energies. This ability replicates Dispel Magic, except the Eviscerator's caster level is equal to his Eviscerator level -4 and there are no components required for the effect to take place. The Eviscerator may use this ability a number of times per day equal to his Charisma bonus. (Minimum once.)
This isn't Ex. YOU ARE DISPELLING MAGIC. This is Su, at best. That's not a bad thing, btws, just a thing.

Otherwise, ok, fine. I would recommend tying it to a melee attack with your claws and setting it to the targeted dispel option only. Otherwise, you have a clawdude yelling really loud at an area and suddenly magic runs away, which is just a stupid image. However, if he hits someone and rips their spells away, that's a lot cooler and makes more sense. Finally, I'd recommend an upgrade to Greater Dispel at level 15 (the first level where it matters).

The MAD is getting silly though.


Maul (Ex): Any time an Eviscerator of 7th level or higher successfully deals claw damage in a grapple, he deals extra damage. At 7th level, this damage is 1d6. At 18th level, it increases to 1d8.
Uh, ok. Boring, but ok.


Improved Grab (Ex): At 8th level and higher, an Eviscerator who hits a creature his size or smaller with both claw attacks may choose to initiate a grapple automatically, without any attacks of opportunity or touch attack. If the Eviscerator is at least one size category larger than the grappled opponent, he may choose to hold the opponent with one claw, leaving himself free to act normally but taking a -20 to his grapple check. An Eviscerator may not use Improved Grab and Rend or Tear Asunder at the same time.
Ok, seems fine. Imp. Grab is pretty good, though locking you out of an ability you don't yet have is... strange, to say the least.


Frightful Presence (Ex):
Whenever an Eviscerator charges or reduces an enemy to 0 or fewer hit points, all enemies within 30 feet of him must make a will save equal to 10 + half the Eviscerator's class level + the Eviscerator's charisma modifier. If a creature is slain to trigger this ability, the DC is instead equal to 10 + the fallen's hit die + the Eviscerator's charisma modifier. The Eviscerator may choose to make an Intimidate check in lieu of the static DC, but must use the result of his check, even if it is lower. If any creature fails their save, they are considered panicked for 5d6 rounds. A creature can be subject to this effect more than once, as the triggering action is rarely the same.
ARGH THE MAD DUKE THE MAD. Stoppit. :smalltongue:

Also, do not give them panicked. Panicked is superamazing and no precedent exists for Frightful Presence giving panicked. Make it Frightened, if you really must, but know that Shaken is what I'd go with (Intimidate stacking can get you further, after all). I would also remove the multi-triggering effect, since then he can do it every round, which is pretty powerful and pretty uncool.


Improved Sunder (Ex): At 13th level, the Eviscerator gains Improved Sunder as a bonus feat.
"Yay, I made it to 13th level! What cool thing I do get?
...
A ****ty feat that breaks my treasure. Well, there goes my joy."

Change it to anything else.


Blood Runs Cold (Ex):
With a bestial howl, the Eviscerator rends all creatures in a 30 foot cone paralyzed. A creature is allowed a Will Save of 10 + half class level + charisma modifier to resist. Each turn after the first, they are allowed a new saving throw to end the effect. If all saving throws are failed, the creature is automatically released 1d4 minutes after the Eviscerator is no longer in sight.
...this has no duration and no use limit... there's a problem here. Give it a duration (reasonably, round/class level) and a use limit (reasonably, a few per day).

Otherwise, well, it's really really good. Not sure I actually think it's a balanced ability, but it's the sort of thing I'd need to test to prove.


Torment (Ex): An Eviscerator is not one to leave a nearby foe alone. Any hostile spellcaster threatened by an Eviscerator of 12th or higher level suffers a -4 penalty to Concentration checks, and attacks of opportunity for casting a spell benefit from a +4 circumstance bonus. Furthermore, the Eviscerator may make attacks of opportunity on enemies taking a 5-foot step out of spaces they threaten.
Uh, I guess this is ok. The real winner is the 5-ft step thing, which is frankly pretty good. The spellcaster thing is meh.


Rend (Ex): Any creature hit by both of a 15th level Eviscerator's claws in a single round takes additional damage equal to twice the Eviscerator's claw damage, plus one and a half times his strength modifier. Thus, a creature hit by a 15th level Eviscerator's claws (with a Strength 18) takes 4d6+6 points of damage.
What if you have multiple claws (ie. more than two)?


Savage Revival (Su): The ferocity and brutality of a 15th level Eviscerator is almost a fact of reality, an essence of the world that is difficult to erase. Once each month, when an Eviscerator is slain (including by death effects), he may resurrect one week later as if by the Reincarnate spell, with no loss of level, as near to the spot of his death as possible. The Eviscerator must choose to undergo this process at the time of death, at which point the spirit leaves the body, and the Eviscerator cannot otherwise be raised by any means.

Use the following table to determine the new form of the Eviscerator.

The next bit's a bit mangled, I'm trying to figure out where I frelled up the coding.

{table=head]Race|Percentile Result
Previous Race|
01-09
Bugbear|
10-19
Elf, Wild|
20-29
Elf, Wood|
30-39
Gnoll|
40-49
Hobgoblin|
50-59
Kobold|
60-69
Lizardfolk|
70-79
Orc|
80-89
Troglodyte|
90-99
DM's Choice|
100[/table]
Unexciting. It's good and nice to have, sure, but it's also rarely going to come up and puts the character down for a week. It's a fine passive ability. I wouldn't write home about it, but it's good to have laying around.


Tear Asunder (Ex): In addition to taking Rend damage, any living creature struck in the same round by both of a level 16 Eviscerator's claws must make either a Fortitude Save or an opposed grapple check. The save for the Fortitude Save is equal to 10 + half the Eviscerator's level + his strength Bonus). If the save or check fails, the creature is immediately ripped apart, as if by massive damage. The Eviscerator may choose to use this ability when grappling an opponent, at which point the opponent suffers a -4 penalty on the roll.
1. Massive damage gives a separate save. If you knew that, did you intend to use the language of "as if by massive damage" anyways?

2. Is this a death effect? Does it ACTUALLY KILL YOU? There are things that can survive being ripped in half (a golem might not be killed, incorporeal beings are all "lolwut?", multi-headed/limbed or amorphous creatures may be able to survive, etc).

3. This makes grappling functionally an autokill (I grapple you with Imp. Grab; next round I hit you with both claws, forcing rend and tear asunder at a penalty; this continues every round until you die, gg). I... really can't approve of that. However, if your line above in Imp.Grab means that if you START the grapple with Imp.Grab you can't use this ability at all... then why the hell is Imp.Grab here? :smallconfused: Clarify things.

4. This needs a per day limit. I recommend that it be low.


Bathe in Blood (Ex): Whenever an Eviscerator slays an opponent through either a critical hit, or its Rend or Tear Asunder abilities, he immediately gains hit points equal to twice the slain creature's hit die. Any excess hit points are converted to temporary hit points, which fade after one minute.
Is there a max on the temp hp?


Apex of Brutality (Ex): The Eviscerator holds much more power than his size would otherwise indicate. For most beneficial purposes, treat the Eviscerator's size as one step larger. This gives them a permanent bonus of +8 to Strength, +4 to Constitution, and +3 to Natural Armor. They may use weapons intended for a creature one size larger without penalty. They may still use weapons and armor intended for their natural size. They also deal unarmed and natural attack damage as if they were one size category larger, and gain the relevant bonuses to grapple, bull rush, and similar checks.
What are the bonus types? Why can they use larger weapons, since the ENTIRE CLASS is focused on claws? Why is this not just Powerful Build (this is the really good question)?

I'm pretty nonplussed at the moment. It's a hodgepodge of abilities, only a few of which have internal synergy (this is a martial class that focuses on killing people in brutal ways, as the abilities Bathe in Blood, Rend, Tear Apart, etc indicate, and yet, it has something to ignore movement penalties and to paralyze people? That's confusing...). Many of the abilities are really poorly worded and in dire need of some editing and restrictions while others need a boost to matter. The class is MAD and not in a fun way (wants Con, Dex, Cha, and Str; this is similar to the Monk, who wants Str, Dex, Con, and Wis, and gets made fun of because of it).

Now, I've been pretty harsh, so here's some things you did well (they do exist :smallwink:). The class has good thematics, quite flavorful. Your abilities, despite being poorly written atm, are good ideas and well worth salvaging. There is a large amount of promise on display, but it's in the rough. I think that with some effort and some very clear attention to what needs fixing, you could have something really great. At the moment, I'm confident you have something good but unpolished.

Ursus the Grim
2011-11-04, 10:01 AM
Ok, so, it's tough but poor. Obviously meant to be a wildsman. As a note, the Barbarian gets more than this. Just a heads up.
My concept going in was "a monk for lizardfolk". This was a poor choice that will come up in several points here. The gold is one of them. Though, fluff-wise, as a warmongering class, they'd probably have a little bit more loot.

Will increase this.


I see no serious issues here, though it's pretty light overall. I do question Profession, on the basis of "this is a wildman, why does he have profession?"


Partly because the skills were so light, partly because not all Professions are part of civilized life. Though I suppose Profession (Raider) is kind of unlikely, huh.

Dropping Profession, will review for other addable skills.


I know this is a wildman, but, uh, the Barbarian gets martial and medium. Just sayin'.

Here I took a page from Swordsage in terms of restrictions. I was also originally planning on giving it fast movement, which would kind of mandate light or no armor. Thus, I didn't see a need for Medium armor.

Will reconsider.


...just GIVE them IUS. Why dance around it? Just give them the damn feat.

I. . . honestly don't know why I didn't give them IUS. I think I added the clause on as an afterthought.

Will be rewording the ability to simply grant Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat.


Con bonus is nice. However, the NA bonus can still be safely increased (because not every Eviscerator will have great Con, and Con is not a stat people really buff, on the basis of "well, it doesn't really do anything but HP". You already have a d12, you're covered with an 18 Con.


I hesitated to do this. Generally characters with natural armor tend to end up being the most effective 'tanks' in the games I play. Lizardfolk Fighter with a +5 boost to his AC, and so on. I figured Con being the second most important stat for the class, that people were likely to bump it up to incredible levels. Though now I don't see much of a reason not to increase the static bonus, perhaps by two points over the course of the class.

Will increase static bonus to natural armor.


Also, the last sentence is irrelevant. All creatures have a natural armor score, even if unlisted. It's just +0 unless otherwise stated.
Derp, one more thing to fix.



I REALLY disagree with this not being Pounce. It's your decision, but Pounce isn't overpowered and would be an excellent advantage for a warrior to have.
You made a valid point about the class having to be taken on its own merits. I just kept envisioning some six-clawed Totemist ubercharger with a mouth-pick and tail blade monstrosity taking a dip in this to increase claw damage while nabbing pounce. I shouldn't be he'd responsible if other mechanics of the game are broken, I suppose.

Will probably be reverting this to standard pounce.



Ok, here's some issues:
1. Why is the save non-standard? Standarize it to DC 10+1/2 level+stat mod. There's a reason it's done that way.
2. Why does this run on Dex? This would have been a brilliant place to work in a Con dependency, but you didn't. Makes very little sense. Focus the class a little here! Str/Con or Str/Dex, pick one.
3. So few uses and such a low save (really, level+mod is a TERRIBLE save) makes this a glass cannon ability. Please, increase the frequency that you acquire more uses. Level 5 is good for 2/day, level 13 for 4/day, and 17 for 5/day.
4. The damage dice progression is super jacked up. Standardize it across more levels. Makes it seem less schizophrenic. Perhaps level 6 is 2d4, level 11 is 3d4, and level 16 is 4d4?

1. I'm not sure. I was envisioning the higher levels, not the lowers, but the higher level DC would be the same if it were standardized, so yeah.
2. I was trying to work in something for the dexterity-based monsters. I think I'll make it Str based, though. Seems more fluffable, being able to cut deeper and such.
3. Going to fix that save, and increase the usages. I feared the con damage would really destroy certain creatures (losing up to 8 points of Constitution is going to ruin nearly anything's day).
4. Its weird because it didn't have much room to lose. I hesitate to bump it up to 4d4. That's an average of 10 Con damage, which will drop a creature by 5 points per hit die. 20 HD creature? -100 hp. That kind of damage frightens me. Then again, it seems balanced in the martial adepts, and the casters of that level can do that at will. . . .

Will be making most of the changes outlined above.


You are aware this lets them move through solid objects, walls of force, and similar obstacles, right (I bet you didn't intend that)? Perhaps a better way of saying this is that they ignore movement penalties due to terrain (at higher levels, add an ability that permits them to ignore movement penalties from magical sources?).


Obviously I didn't intend such Ironheart Surge ambiguity. I want them to walk through Walls, not walls. This was originally woodland stride but was reworded because woodland stride ends up being useless in most combat scenarios when you need it most.

May revert to woodland stride with a more clear-cut improvement at later level.


Also, what's the lore here? So far, we've gotten a physical brute, Wolverine sans healing really, and now we're moving through objects? Very confusing. A touch more lore linking this to the rest of the class would not be amiss.


Its a bit muddled because I've made some sacrifices in fluff to make it playable. Wolverine - regeneration, sure, with a touch of Juggernaut.


Do not give specific bonus feats. Either give them options or make this a minor grapple-related ability that happens to grant the feat too.


I plan on reworking the bonus feats to allow more options, such as choosing between Improved Grapple and Weapon Finesse. This will let me throw something in for the more nimble Eviscerators.

Re-hauling Bonus Feats to allow for options.


Seems fine, even if the progression is messy (again, why is this not even?). Ghost Touch could be a bit sooner, perhaps 15.

It was originally drafted off the Monk's Ki Strike. There's the problem.
Will consider bumping up Ghost Touch, dependent on if something is going to replace its slot at that level.


Ok, seems fine, if unexciting. Can't think of how this would ever be problematic or anything, so it's all good. I guess.
It was added after some suggestions. I felt some life gain was warranted, considering its otherwise low damage-mitigation.


This isn't Ex. YOU ARE DISPELLING MAGIC. This is Su, at best. That's not a bad thing, btws, just a thing.

Otherwise, ok, fine. I would recommend tying it to a melee attack with your claws and setting it to the targeted dispel option only. Otherwise, you have a clawdude yelling really loud at an area and suddenly magic runs away, which is just a stupid image. However, if he hits someone and rips their spells away, that's a lot cooler and makes more sense. Finally, I'd recommend an upgrade to Greater Dispel at level 15 (the first level where it matters).

I didn't want it to fail in an AMF, really. I don't know why, considering there would be no reason to Dispel in an AMF. Your suggestion here is one of my favorites out of what you suggest. I considered turning it into Disjunction at higher levels, but that runs into the Sunder issue of "my loot is all gone!".

Will certainly implement this suggestion.


Uh, ok. Boring, but ok.
I might actually end up doing away with this. Considering his other options in a grapple, that +d8 damage really isn't that much, and its just one more thing to have to track and remember.


Ok, seems fine. Imp. Grab is pretty good, though locking you out of an ability you don't yet have is... strange, to say the least.
Yeah, good point.

Will rephrase this to exclude exclusion of Tear Asunder.


ARGH THE MAD DUKE THE MAD. Stoppit. :smalltongue:

Also, do not give them panicked. Panicked is superamazing and no precedent exists for Frightful Presence giving panicked. Make it Frightened, if you really must, but know that Shaken is what I'd go with (Intimidate stacking can get you further, after all). I would also remove the multi-triggering effect, since then he can do it every round, which is pretty powerful and pretty uncool.

The MAD was mostly unintentional. I figured, being a fear effect, Charisma would be relevant, but yeah, I shouldn't be using Cha as the save here. Forgot that fear stacks, as well. However, Blood Runs Cold doesn't stack (technically paralysis and not fear), and using Intimidate in combat is fine, unless there's multiple opponents. It lasts only 1 round. It wastes your standard action, too. I'll compromise here.

Will remove charging as a trigger, and reduce from Panicked to Frightened.


"Yay, I made it to 13th level! What cool thing I do get?
...
A ****ty feat that breaks my treasure. Well, there goes my joy."

Change it to anything else.

Good point. I never sunder.
Will Change to Improved Disarm.


...this has no duration and no use limit... there's a problem here. Give it a duration (reasonably, round/class level) and a use limit (reasonably, a few per day).

Duration: Round/ Class Level and Usage: Constitution Modifier, minimum 1.
It comes pretty late in the progression, and I don't like abilities with no "wiggle room". Gives a little something for the defensive Eviscerator who decides to pump Con, while still remaining limited per day. Would reasonably expect to see 2-6 uses per day of this.


Otherwise, well, it's really really good. Not sure I actually think it's a balanced ability, but it's the sort of thing I'd need to test to prove.

I'm glad I kept it a short cone then. Originally it was going to be a burst effect, which would be significantly nastier.


Uh, I guess this is ok. The real winner is the 5-ft step thing, which is frankly pretty good. The spellcaster thing is meh.

Well, its kind of a response to "I take my 5-ft step away from him and cast Disintegrate. Would it be broken to deny defensive casting as well?


What if you have multiple claws (ie. more than two)?

I originally didn't think of extra claws. I'll implement a table for that, probably drawing off of the Tiger Claw's Rend-like maneuver.

Will add table for multiple claws.


Unexciting. It's good and nice to have, sure, but it's also rarely going to come up and puts the character down for a week. It's a fine passive ability. I wouldn't write home about it, but it's good to have laying around.

I personally like to have a contingency for total party kills, and considering his role, he's likely to die most often.


1. Massive damage gives a separate save. If you knew that, did you intend to use the language of "as if by massive damage" anyways?

2. Is this a death effect? Does it ACTUALLY KILL YOU? There are things that can survive being ripped in half (a golem might not be killed, incorporeal beings are all "lolwut?", multi-headed/limbed or amorphous creatures may be able to survive, etc).

3. This makes grappling functionally an autokill (I grapple you with Imp. Grab; next round I hit you with both claws, forcing rend and tear asunder at a penalty; this continues every round until you die, gg). I... really can't approve of that. However, if your line above in Imp.Grab means that if you START the grapple with Imp.Grab you can't use this ability at all... then why the hell is Imp.Grab here? :smallconfused: Clarify things.

4. This needs a per day limit. I recommend that it be low.

1. No, I intended for the save to replace massive damage save. Which could trigger anyway, depending on Rend.
2. I didn't think of that. The Massive Damage clause would make certain creatures immune, but I have to think about whether or not corporeal creatures with no discernible anatomy are subject.
3. Honestly, I think Grappling could use a boost. Its not easy to outgrapple most creatures at this level, and if the three-turn kill of a Reaping Mauler is as terribly as people is, why not a two-turn kill with multiple saves. I'll give it some thought.
4. Noted. If I don't nerf it combat wise, I'll limit it in terms of usage. Though I should point out that Tiger Claw adepts get a similar SoD usable once per encounter.

Remove "as if from massive damage" clause. Does not kill creatures without discernible anatomy, but deals extra damage (50 points?), making it less useful, but not completely negated. Ghost Touch and Adamantine claws mean that they're still getting cut up. Implement usage limit. 1/day at that level, 3/day at 20th?


Is there a max on the temp hp?

I figured fading after a minute would let me dodge this question. How about capping it at %50 of max HP (ie, 100 hp Eviscerator couldn't exceed 150 hp.)


What are the bonus types? Why can they use larger weapons, since the ENTIRE CLASS is focused on claws? Why is this not just Powerful Build (this is the really good question)?


Originally, I was going to allow characters with, say, punching daggers to make use of the class. That was eventually scrapped. I felt powerful build wasn't good enough as a capstone. *gasp* It doesn't give any actual bonuses the player can easily use. Its just a size larger for special attacks. It doesn't make them any stronger, which is kind of interesting considering the name of the ability. Powerful Build also lets them use weapons one size category larger (which, as you pointed out, doesn't work). Plus, it would really suck to pick up Powerful Build elsewhere and then hit level 20 in this class for nothing.

Tentatively keeping as is, dropping the weapon clause.


I'm pretty nonplussed at the moment. It's a hodgepodge of abilities, only a few of which have internal synergy (this is a martial class that focuses on killing people in brutal ways, as the abilities Bathe in Blood, Rend, Tear Apart, etc indicate, and yet, it has something to ignore movement penalties and to paralyze people? That's confusing...). Many of the abilities are really poorly worded and in dire need of some editing and restrictions while others need a boost to matter. The class is MAD and not in a fun way (wants Con, Dex, Cha, and Str; this is similar to the Monk, who wants Str, Dex, Con, and Wis, and gets made fun of because of it).

I honestly didn't realize how MAD it had gotten. I'm primarily going to fix the DCs using Charisma to use another stat, and give players an 'option' for switching out Strength and Dexterity.

Thanks so much for all the input, advice, and criticism. I'm confident that the class and my abilities as a homebrewer will both benefit from this experience.

arguskos
2011-11-04, 03:20 PM
My concept going in was "a monk for lizardfolk". This was a poor choice that will come up in several points here. The gold is one of them. Though, fluff-wise, as a warmongering class, they'd probably have a little bit more loot.

Will increase this.
Fair enough. A bit more cash seems good.


Partly because the skills were so light, partly because not all Professions are part of civilized life. Though I suppose Profession (Raider) is kind of unlikely, huh.

Dropping Profession, will review for other addable skills.
I'm not sure what other skills work, but perhaps Martial Lore and/or Autohypnosis would be worth looking at. The former cause lolwarrior and the latter to play up the "I can't die" subtheme (the stabilization thing).


Here I took a page from Swordsage in terms of restrictions. I was also originally planning on giving it fast movement, which would kind of mandate light or no armor. Thus, I didn't see a need for Medium armor.

Will reconsider.
Well, this is more closely linked to the Barb than the Swordsage. Think about it this way: this is a wildman... who can't wear hide armor.



I. . . honestly don't know why I didn't give them IUS. I think I added the clause on as an afterthought.

Will be rewording the ability to simply grant Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat.
Haha happens. Keep the "claws are unarmed strikes" thing though, that's good.


I hesitated to do this. Generally characters with natural armor tend to end up being the most effective 'tanks' in the games I play. Lizardfolk Fighter with a +5 boost to his AC, and so on. I figured Con being the second most important stat for the class, that people were likely to bump it up to incredible levels. Though now I don't see much of a reason not to increase the static bonus, perhaps by two points over the course of the class.

Will increase static bonus to natural armor.
Tanking only works if you're getting targeted. With no way to draw aggro, how can this guy force someone to attack him? Focusing on defense would be silly. All an increase does in keep his defenses solid as levels increase and attack bonuses begin outpacing defenses.



Derp, one more thing to fix.
That's just little known. Don't sweat it.


You made a valid point about the class having to be taken on its own merits. I just kept envisioning some six-clawed Totemist ubercharger with a mouth-pick and tail blade monstrosity taking a dip in this to increase claw damage while nabbing pounce. I shouldn't be he'd responsible if other mechanics of the game are broken, I suppose.

Will probably be reverting this to standard pounce.
Sure, if the King of Smack gets involved, that's an issue, but that's not YOUR problem. Such builds are stupidpowerful anyways. :smalltongue:


1. I'm not sure. I was envisioning the higher levels, not the lowers, but the higher level DC would be the same if it were standardized, so yeah.
2. I was trying to work in something for the dexterity-based monsters. I think I'll make it Str based, though. Seems more fluffable, being able to cut deeper and such.
3. Going to fix that save, and increase the usages. I feared the con damage would really destroy certain creatures (losing up to 8 points of Constitution is going to ruin nearly anything's day).
4. Its weird because it didn't have much room to lose. I hesitate to bump it up to 4d4. That's an average of 10 Con damage, which will drop a creature by 5 points per hit die. 20 HD creature? -100 hp. That kind of damage frightens me. Then again, it seems balanced in the martial adepts, and the casters of that level can do that at will. . . .

Will be making most of the changes outlined above.
1. DCs need to be standardized for ease of play, really.
2. And it makes me MAD to see a random Dex ability (even if TWF is likely). Str just fits better.
3. Remember, anything without Con can't be hurt by this. Constructs and undead are all "lol you can't use your fun attack on us".
4. That's true, and is a lot of damage, but at those levels, even a casual (non-optimized) charger is dealing hundreds of damage in a hit with Power Attack and a really magical weapon.


Obviously I didn't intend such Ironheart Surge ambiguity. I want them to walk through Walls, not walls. This was originally woodland stride but was reworded because woodland stride ends up being useless in most combat scenarios when you need it most.

May revert to woodland stride with a more clear-cut improvement at later level.

Figured, cause yeah, that's silly. I only went that far to indicate how you need to tighten up your editing (to be fair, lots of people need to do this, myself included on occasion).

You're right, by the by, woodland stride is flat-out terrible. Perhaps to buff it up around level 8-10 to ignore magical impediments would be good.


Its a bit muddled because I've made some sacrifices in fluff to make it playable. Wolverine - regeneration, sure, with a touch of Juggernaut.
Ah. Might want to tighten that up some and make it somewhat more obvious all around.


I plan on reworking the bonus feats to allow more options, such as choosing between Improved Grapple and Weapon Finesse. This will let me throw something in for the more nimble Eviscerators.

Re-hauling Bonus Feats to allow for options.
Wonderful! I like how the Scout does it by just giving a list of options and saying "any of these is fine, assuming you meet the reqs".


It was originally drafted off the Monk's Ki Strike. There's the problem.
Will consider bumping up Ghost Touch, dependent on if something is going to replace its slot at that level.
No kidding. :smalleek: Yeah, move up ghost touch, give it something like speed at higher levels.


It was added after some suggestions. I felt some life gain was warranted, considering its otherwise low damage-mitigation.
It's a useful ability, just a bit out of place. Also, with that AC buff, damage mitigation is slightly less relevant.


I didn't want it to fail in an AMF, really. I don't know why, considering there would be no reason to Dispel in an AMF. Your suggestion here is one of my favorites out of what you suggest. I considered turning it into Disjunction at higher levels, but that runs into the Sunder issue of "my loot is all gone!".

Will certainly implement this suggestion.
...a non-failing dispel in an AMF, where there is no magic. Uh... so... um... Imma just leave this (http://images.paraorkut.com/img/pics/images/i/i_dont_always_herp_derp-14200.png) here. :smalltongue:


I might actually end up doing away with this. Considering his other options in a grapple, that +d8 damage really isn't that much, and its just one more thing to have to track and remember.
If you do, replace it. NO DEAD LEVELS GRRRRR.


Yeah, good point.

Will rephrase this to exclude exclusion of Tear Asunder.
Coolio.


The MAD was mostly unintentional. I figured, being a fear effect, Charisma would be relevant, but yeah, I shouldn't be using Cha as the save here. Forgot that fear stacks, as well. However, Blood Runs Cold doesn't stack (technically paralysis and not fear), and using Intimidate in combat is fine, unless there's multiple opponents. It lasts only 1 round. It wastes your standard action, too. I'll compromise here.

Will remove charging as a trigger, and reduce from Panicked to Frightened.
Um... I think part of Blood Runs Cold got mixed in here, cause Frightful Presence has a longer duration than one round. :smallconfused:

Good changes though.


Good point. I never sunder.
Will Change to Improved Disarm.
Gah! No, bad! Don't give a set bonus feat, dammit! Give options! Do what the Scout does, like above.



Duration: Round/ Class Level and Usage: Constitution Modifier, minimum 1.
It comes pretty late in the progression, and I don't like abilities with no "wiggle room". Gives a little something for the defensive Eviscerator who decides to pump Con, while still remaining limited per day. Would reasonably expect to see 2-6 uses per day of this.
I think round/level duration and con mod uses is fine. I would also add a clause about not stacking it.


I'm glad I kept it a short cone then. Originally it was going to be a burst effect, which would be significantly nastier.
Yeah broken no bad.


Well, its kind of a response to "I take my 5-ft step away from him and cast Disintegrate. Would it be broken to deny defensive casting as well?
Auto-denying anything is usually bad. I'd leave this as it is.


I originally didn't think of extra claws. I'll implement a table for that, probably drawing off of the Tiger Claw's Rend-like maneuver.

Will add table for multiple claws.
...what will this table say, exactly? Just make it so that the damage increases by <claw damage+1/2 str> for every two claws after the first. That's a slower progression that still can rack up the damage well.


I personally like to have a contingency for total party kills, and considering his role, he's likely to die most often.
Like I said, it's a fine ability. I'm not excited, cause I don't care for too many passives, but that's just me. :smalltongue:


1. No, I intended for the save to replace massive damage save. Which could trigger anyway, depending on Rend.
2. I didn't think of that. The Massive Damage clause would make certain creatures immune, but I have to think about whether or not corporeal creatures with no discernible anatomy are subject.
3. Honestly, I think Grappling could use a boost. Its not easy to outgrapple most creatures at this level, and if the three-turn kill of a Reaping Mauler is as terribly as people is, why not a two-turn kill with multiple saves. I'll give it some thought.
4. Noted. If I don't nerf it combat wise, I'll limit it in terms of usage. Though I should point out that Tiger Claw adepts get a similar SoD usable once per encounter.

Remove "as if from massive damage" clause. Does not kill creatures without discernible anatomy, but deals extra damage (50 points?), making it less useful, but not completely negated. Ghost Touch and Adamantine claws mean that they're still getting cut up. Implement usage limit. 1/day at that level, 3/day at 20th?
1. Ok, make that clear.
2. Make the exceptions clear as well. That's important to know.
3. It... really doesn't need it. Grappling is already surprisingly powerful, especially against humanoids. Man, humanoids get absolutely RUINED by grappling. Against giant monsters, ok, it's not as good, but those are giant monsters. I don't expect anyone to go toe to toe with the Tarrasque in a wrestling match and walk away. :smalltongue:
4. I don't care what others get, I care what this gets. Usage limits are useful with SoDs, which are really not that fun to play with, but that's just me.


I figured fading after a minute would let me dodge this question. How about capping it at %50 of max HP (ie, 100 hp Eviscerator couldn't exceed 150 hp.)
Never dodge questions, always confront them directly.


Originally, I was going to allow characters with, say, punching daggers to make use of the class. That was eventually scrapped. I felt powerful build wasn't good enough as a capstone. *gasp* It doesn't give any actual bonuses the player can easily use. Its just a size larger for special attacks. It doesn't make them any stronger, which is kind of interesting considering the name of the ability. Powerful Build also lets them use weapons one size category larger (which, as you pointed out, doesn't work). Plus, it would really suck to pick up Powerful Build elsewhere and then hit level 20 in this class for nothing.

Tentatively keeping as is, dropping the weapon clause.
Needs a bonus type. THIS IS SUPER CRITICAL. Untyped bonuses are dangerous and really ill-advised.

I have always felt that a capstone needs to provide something unique and powerful. For instance, Loyal Beyond Death is the perfect capstone from a WotC class (and the example mine are all based on) or the capstones from these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154674) three (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10357045#post10357045) classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192781) of mine as examples of what capstones should look like. This is a martial class who, at level 20, is fighting wizards who can stop time, make their own planes, and decimate societies, all in an afternoon before teatime. You should get something similarly high fantasy and totally amazing.

I would recommend you look at Juggernaut and Wolverine's more impressive stunts (perfect control over motion/unstoppable momentum and total regeneration from the cellular level/a whirling frenzy of "EVERYTHING DIES FOREVER", respectively) and base something awesome off of those two.


I honestly didn't realize how MAD it had gotten. I'm primarily going to fix the DCs using Charisma to use another stat, and give players an 'option' for switching out Strength and Dexterity.
Sounds fine. I figured you did what many do: made abilities and assigned stats as you saw fit based on what made sense at the moment, not considering the bigger picture of what the final product was going to look like. It happens. The lesson here is to just look at the big picture while making the small one. :smallwink:


Thanks so much for all the input, advice, and criticism. I'm confident that the class and my abilities as a homebrewer will both benefit from this experience.
Sure. Like I said, there's good stuff here, it's just in the rough. Don't sweat it. Not enough people are willing to look at something they may not even like and really delve into it to give detailed criticisms. I don't do it enough, actually, but I have so very little time these days. Happy to help. :smallcool:

Keinnicht
2011-11-05, 02:12 PM
On the Wolverine note, I think Fast Healing would really suit this class.


Also, claw growth needs some fluff and a little bit of crunch, to avoid confusion. Namely, WHY do they grow claws? Is it extraordinary or supernatural? Because at the moment I can easily see it going either way.

Also seconding Ursus' issue with the SoD ability. I was going to go with:

-Make it so that it's an activated ability, not one that happens automatically.
-Make it so that only one attempt can be made per encounter. This still makes it very useful, but doesn't turn every encounter into "something has to SoD every single turn."

Ursus the Grim
2011-11-07, 12:57 PM
On the Wolverine note, I think Fast Healing would really suit this class.


Also, claw growth needs some fluff and a little bit of crunch, to avoid confusion. Namely, WHY do they grow claws? Is it extraordinary or supernatural? Because at the moment I can easily see it going either way.

Also seconding Ursus' issue with the SoD ability. I was going to go with:

-Make it so that it's an activated ability, not one that happens automatically.
-Make it so that only one attempt can be made per encounter. This still makes it very useful, but doesn't turn every encounter into "something has to SoD every single turn."

Fast healing would have to be pretty specific. The upper limit of what I consider reasonable for free healing is the vigorous draconic auras. But fast healing in combat with a limited duration is a little weak unless its healing a great amount per turn. This is something I'd have to mull over especially.

Claw Growth was a quick thing to implement, because originally the class assumed there were claws. I can refluff it better.

Finally, I should mention that this class is good for template-stacking. I brewed up a CR 9 creature with 2 levels in this class and it passed AC 30 pretty easily. For certain monsters, it may actually be too good, considering the Con and Str bonuses of most of them.