Spy [3.5, Class]

[ideasmith]

SPY
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d4.

Class Skills
The spy’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (8 + Int modifier) x4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 8 + Int modifier.

SPY
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+0|Cover identity, hidden supplies

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+3|
+0|Cover identity, hidden mind

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+3|
+1|Cover identity

4th|
+2|
+1|
+4|
+1|Cover identity

5th|
+2|
+1|
+4|
+1|Cover identity fast change (1 hour)

6th|
+3|
+2|
+5|
+2|Cover identity, pick things up

7th|
+3|
+2|
+5|
+2|Cover identity, adventuring cover

8th|
+4|
+2|
+6|
+2|Cover identity

9th|
+4|
+3|
+6|
+3|Cover identity, fast change (adventuring cover 1 hour)

10th|
+5|
+3|
+7|
+3|Cover identity, fast change (10 minutes)

11th|
+5|
+3|
+7|
+3|Cover identity, adventuring cover

12th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+8|
+4|Cover identity, deceptive mind

13th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+8|
+4|Cover identity, a thousand faces

14th|
+7/+2|
+4|
+9|
+4|Cover identity, fast change (adventuring cover 10 minutes)

15th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+9|
+5|Cover identity, adventuring cover, fast change (1 minute)

16th|
+8/+3|
+5|
+10|
+5|Cover identity

17th|
+8/+3|
+5|
+10|
+5|Cover identity

18th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+11|
+6|Cover identity, fast change (adventuring cover 1 minute)

19th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+11|
+6|Cover identity, adventuring cover

20th|
+10/+5|
+6|
+12|
+6|Cover identity, fast change (1 round) [/table]
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the spy.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Spies are proficient with all simple weapons, but not with any type of armor or shield.
Cover identity: At 1st level, a spy gains a cover identity, an imaginary identity which the spy can convincingly disguise herself as, and gains the abilities of when so disguised. The cover is as a single-classed member of one of the following classes:[/B] adept, aristocrat, commoner, expert, or warrior. When a spy spends at least a day disguising herself as the cover identity, she gains the following benefits while she remains undercover:

• Disguise: A spy in cover gains a +10 bonus to her disguise check(s) to appear as the cover identity. A spy in cover as a commoner gains an additional +2 bonus per level.
• Hit Points: A spy in cover as an adept or expert gains 1 extra hit point per level. A spy in cover as an aristocrat or warrior gains two extra hit points per level. These hit points go away at the end of the disguise. (They are not lost first the way temporary hit points are.)
• Base Attack Bonus: A spy in cover as an aristocrat or expert has medium (rather than poor) BAB. A spy in cover as a warrior has good (rather than poor) BAB.
• Base Saving Throw Bonuses: A spy in cover as an adept, aristocrat or expert has good (rather than poor) Base Will Saves. A spy in cover as warrior has good (rather than poor) Base Fortitude Saves.
• Class Features: A spy in cover as an aristocrat, expert, or warrior gains the weapon/armor/shield proficiencies thereof. A spy in cover as an adept gains the spellcasting ability of an adept of the same level. She can also summon a familiar as an adept of the same level,. If she changes out of cover, any unused spells are lost and the familiar is dismissed with the normal penalties thereof.
• Feats: A spy in cover gains cover-specific feats. Each cover provides up to seven feats, one for first level, and one for each three full levels. Changing into or out of cover does not change that cover’s feats, only whether that cover’s feats are currently available. A spy must meet all prerequisites for a feat, and abilities available with to one cover are not available for meeting another cover’s prerequisites.
• Skills: A spy in cover gains cover-specific skills. Each cover provides skill points as normal for the cover’s class and the spy’s level and Intelligence. These skill points may only be spent on the cover’s class skills. Changing into or out of cover does not change that cover’s skills, only whether that cover’s skills are currently available. When a cover supplies a skill which the spy already has, use the higher Skill Rank.
The spy gains an additional cover identity at every level. Abilities gained from a cover don’t count towards prestige class prerequisites.
Broken Cover: Any creature that is aware that a given cover is actually a spy’s cover gets certain bonuses against a spy when the spy is in that cover.
• A +4 insight bonus to AC against that spy’s attacks.
• A +4 insight bonus to Will and Reflex saves against that spy’s spells and special abilities.
• A +4 insight bonus to Sense Motive checks detect that spy’s Bluff
• A +4 insight bonus to Forgery checks to detect the spy’s forgeries.
• A +4 insight bonus to Spot checks to spot the spy using Hide.
• A +4 insight bonus to level checks to resist that spy’s Intimidate.
• A +4 insight bonus to Listen checks to hear the spy using Move Silently.
• A +4 insight bonus to Spot checks to spot the spy’s Sleight of Hand
• A +4 insight bonus to similar opposed checks against the spy as the DM deems appropriate.
Hidden Supplies (Ex): A spy may designate up to 50 pounds of equipment per level as ‘hidden supplies’. When hiding some or all of these supplies on her person, she gains a +10 to resulting Sleight of Hand checks.
Fast Change (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a spy can go under cover, or change from one cover to another, in only one hour, unless changing to an adventuring cover. The time needed drops further, to 10 minutes at 10th level, to 1 minute at 15th level, and to 1 round at 20th level.
The time to change into an adventuring cover starts at 1 day at 7th level, drops to 1 hour at 9th level, to 10 minutes at 14th level, and to 1 minute at 18th level.
Hidden Mind (Ex): A spy of 2nd level or higher gains a +10 bonus on saving throws against spells and effects from the school of divination.
Pick Things Up : At 6th level, a spy gains 15 bonus skill points which can only be spent on Knowledge skills.

Adventurer Cover: At 7th level, a spy gains an adventurer cover, an imaginary identity which the spy can convincingly disguise herself as, and gains most of the abilities of when so disguised. The cover is as a single-classed member of any PC class not otherwise prohibited. When a spy spends at least a day disguising herself as the cover identity, she gains the following benefits while she remains undercover:

• Disguise: A spy in cover gains a +10 bonus to her disguise check(s) to appear as the adventurer.
• Hit Points: A spy in cover as a class with d6 hit dice gains 1 extra hit point per level. A spy in cover as a class with d8 hit dice gains 2 extra hit points per level. A spy in cover as an class with d10 hit dice gains 3 extra hit points per level. A spy in cover as a class with d12 hit dice gains 4 extra hit points per level. These hit points go away at the end of the disguise. (They are not lost first the way temporary hit points are.)
• Base Attack Bonus: A spy in cover has the same BAB as the cover class.
• Base Saving Throw Bonuses: A spy in cover as a class with good will saves has good (rather than poor) Base Will Saves. A spy in cover as a class with good fortitude saves has good (rather than poor) Base Fortitude Saves.
• Class Features: A spy in adventurer cover gains the class features of the adventuring cover’s class, at half the spies level. Changing into or out of cover does not change that cover’s features, only whether those features are available. A spy must meet all prerequisites for any applicable feature, and abilities available with to one cover are not available for meeting another cover’s prerequisites. . If she changes out of cover, any unused spells and similar preparations are lost and the familiar or similar companion is dismissed with the normal penalties thereof.
• Feats: A spy in cover gains cover-specific feats. Each cover provides up to seven feats, one for first level, and one for each three full levels. Changing into or out of cover does not change that cover’s feats, only whether that cover’s feats are currently available. A spy must meet all prerequisites for a feat, and abilities available with to one cover are not available for meeting another cover’s prerequisites.
• Skills: A spy in cover gains cover-specific skills. Each cover provides skill points as normal for the cover’s class and the spy’s level and Intelligence. These skill points may only be spent on the cover’s class skills. Changing into or out of cover does not change that cover’s skills, only whether that cover’s skills are currently available. When a cover supplies a skill which the spy already has, use the higher Skill Rank.
The spy gains an additional adventuring cover 11th, 15th, and 19th level. Abilities gained from a cover don’t count towards prestige class prerequisites.
Broken Cover: Any creature that is aware that a given cover is actually a spy’s cover gets certain bonuses against a spy when the spy is in that cover.
• A +4 insight bonus to AC against that spy’s attacks.
• A +4 insight bonus to Will and Reflex saves against that spy’s spells and special abilities.
• A +4 insight bonus to Sense Motive checks detect that spy’s Bluff
• A +4 insight bonus to Forgery checks to detect the spy’s forgeries.
• A +4 insight bonus to Spot checks to spot the spy using Hide.
• A +4 insight bonus to level checks to resist that spy’s Intimidate.
• A +4 insight bonus to Listen checks to hear the spy using Move Silently.
• A +4 insight bonus to Spot checks to spot the spy’s Sleight of Hand
• A +4 insight bonus to similar opposed checks against the spy as the DM deems appropriate.
Deceptive Mind (Ex): Starting at 12th level, when the spy has a cover identity up, detection spells and spell-like abilities detect her cover identity rather than herself.
A Thousand Faces (Su): At 13th level, a spy gains the ability to change her appearance at will, as if using the alter self spell.

Change Log
11/4/2011 Added adventuring cover (Thank you, Grod_The_Giant.)

11/4/2011 Added cover proficiencies.

11/4/2011 Corrected some typoes.

11/5/2011 Added class skills (Thank you, Veklim.)

11/5/2011 Added pick things up (Thank you, Veklim.)

11/5/2011 Toned down adventuring cover (Thank you, jojolagger, Djinn_in_Tonic, Veklim.)

11/5/2011 Added prestige class clarification

[bobthe6th]

so like a camilian on staroids? the class seems good, but seems to be to broad a focus. it can do most things, but can only do them half heartedly... it only gets to be an NPC...

[Grod_The_Giant]

A neat idea with plenty of potential. It's certainly a cool way of doing the jack-of-all-trades class. I think it needs more in the way of class features, though. The additional cover identities are largely redundant, once you get an adept, a warrior, and one or two experts. And, as bobthe6th noted, it only gets to be an NPC. Admittedly, Adepts are something like tier 4, if I remember correctly, so they probably don't need much love, but it would be great if the spy could pick special abilities for his cover identities. Things like a rogue's sneak attack, a monk's unarmed strike, a barbarian's rage, and so on.

[ideasmith]

so like a camilian on staroids?

I am not familiar with that class. If you are referring to the chameleon class I have seen mentioned on the internet, then quite possibly.


the class seems good, but seems to be to broad a focus. it can do most things, but can only do them half heartedly... it only gets to be an NPC...

The NPC-class-only bit comes from the concept. PC classes attract attention and suspicion in a way that a deep-cover spy would wish to avoid. (Though on consideration, probably less so at high levels.)


A neat idea with plenty of potential. It's certainly a cool way of doing the jack-of-all-trades class.

Thank you.


I think it needs more in the way of class features, though.

There is certainly more room for more class features here. I am open to further ideas.


The additional cover identities are largely redundant, once you get an adept, a warrior, and one or two experts.

There is a good deal of redundancy. But between varying feat choices, the commoner cover disguise bonus, and the need to replace broken covers, I expect the additional identities to be useful enough.


And, as bobthe6th noted, it only gets to be an NPC. Admittedly, Adepts are something like tier 4, if I remember correctly, so they probably don't need much love, but it would be great if the spy could pick special abilities for his cover identities. Things like a rogue's sneak attack, a monk's unarmed strike, a barbarian's rage, and so on.

Adventuring cover added.

[gabrion]

Versatility themed classes are my absolute favorite, so kudos on your creation! I just did a once over for now, but I'll try to dig a bit deeper and add some useful feedback afterwards.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The NPC-class-only bit comes from the concept. PC classes attract attention and suspicion in a way that a deep-cover spy would wish to avoid. (Though on consideration, probably less so at high levels.)

On the other hand, no-one in game is going to know what class you are, and the unexpected power could prove handy if your cover gets blown.


There is certainly more room for more class features here. I am open to further ideas.

I would stick with the NPC classes, but give him the ability to start adding extra bits to them. Like boosting an identity's hit point bonus, or adding to the spell list, or gaining a favored enemy, or a single use of Rage. That sort of thing.

[jojolagger]

Check it! I have the abilities of a level 18 erudite (all powers), a level 18 wizard (all arcane spells), a level 18 archivist (all divine spells), and a level 18 artificer (can focus feats of crafting efficiency.).
I have every skill in the game.
I have access to every spell in the game.
Every night, I put on make-up before going to be so I can hunt via lucid dreaming.

Could a level 20 adept drop the locate city bomb via sudden meta-magic?

Can one of the spy's cover identities be another spy?

[bobthe6th]

well you could be any full caster you want, but it takes a day to become such. also, note that unless you spend a ridiculous amount of GP on spell books, you are stuck with level*2 spells as any of those. and for the archivist at least the spells come from a rather sucky list...

also you could make a spy disguised as a spy disguised as a spy disguised as a spy disguised as a spy disguised as a spy disguised as a spy disguised as a spy disguised as a spy disguised as a spy disguised as a spy disguised as a spy disguised as a spy disguised as a spy disguised as a spy disguised as a spy disguised as a spy, but each time the level drops by two, maxing out as 9 covers at level 20.

[jojolagger]

well you could be any full caster you want, but it takes a day to become such. Wrong. It's one minute. The change gets faster as you Level up. Do a quick cycle through and prepare spells for all of them after the same 8 hour rest and your good to go.

also, note that unless you spend a ridiculous amount of GP on spell books, you are stuck with level*2 spells as any of those.Also, note that Level * 2 spells equals 36 each, or 108 (up to 12 are level 9 spells) total before any money is spent.
The standard cost of a spell (if you find a caster with the spell willing to let you copy it, which as a spy should be easy) Is 50 X spell level to the caster, 100 X spell level in ink. Have a expert cover that can craft the special supplies, and it only costs 750 gp for a ninth level spell. You should have just about every spell you want.

And for the archivist at least the spells come from a rather sucky list...The cleric list, from which the archivist gets his free spells, contains divine power, heal, Spell immunity, and other powerful buffs and defensive spells. Plus you'll be able to any divine spell.


also you could make a spy disguised as a spy disguised as a spy disguised as a spy disguised as a spy disguised as a spy disguised as a spy disguised as a spy disguised as a spy disguised as a spy disguised as a spy disguised as a spy disguised as a spy disguised as a spy disguised as a spy disguised as a spy disguised as a spy, but each time the level drops by two, maxing out as 9 covers at level 20.
Spy twenty gets 3 full casters (erudite, wizard, and archivist) at 18 and a spy at 18. The spy at 18 then grabs 3 more covers (the 3 ToB classes?, artificer and other utility?).
The problem is that you can nearly double (4 to 7) your adventuring doubles if you can accept a small drop in level.

[bobthe6th]

spells disapeare if you change covers. though the text is rather vauge about the actual re freshing of abilaties. it would seem that you could have all caster covers and sical as ablicable. you could have 4 full casters as covers, allowing for 4 casters worth os spells per day. this would seem to be broken. perhapce make the spy go through a seperate 8 hour rest piriod for each cover? then to cast you need to sleep for 8 hours, doing so in the middle of a boss fight as your wizard cover ran out of power...
but really the cover with more covers comes across a problem. the spy can only be one thing at a time. sure he can be lots of things, but as a wizard he ain't as strong, as a eurodite he ain't as strong... versatilaty is nice, but it is weak though versitile...

[jojolagger]

spells disapeare if you change covers.
I'll admit I missed that, which solves a good chunk of the problem.


but really the cover with more covers comes across a problem. the spy can only be one thing at a time. sure he can be lots of things, but as a wizard he ain't as strong, as a eurodite he ain't as strong... versatilaty is nice, but it is weak though versitile...
Actually, he can still have 3 PC class covers at full power. He'd give up 1 level 18 cover for 3 level 16 covers. If psionics isn't allowed, you can have access to (just about) every spell as a level 18 caster and then 6 more covers that are level 16. That's enough to get 4 attack on a full BaB cover.

Also, the level 16 covers would have the spy 20's skills, the spy 18 cover's skills, and there own skills.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Jojolagger is correct that this is quite a bit two strong.

By contrast, my own Chameleon-style class (which was right up against the border of hideously overpowered) capped out at 13th-15th level for multiple classes. With the Spy, however, I can be a level 18 Wizard...and then immediately upon exhausting all my spells become a level 18 Warblade and wade into melee. I could instead become a level 18 Druid, and cast a whole separate bunch of spells. Note that by level 20 this takes only a single round.

Either way, I get 4 Adventurer covers. The ability to be, say, a Psion 18 | Warblade 18 | Wizard 18 | Artificer 18 is an insane amount of both power and versatility...probably to much. This needs to be toned down to a more reasonable level. I also need to be forbidden from making Spy (and maybe Factotum and any homebrew 20 level Chameleon classes) viable classes to have cover identities of.

[Grod_The_Giant]

To be fair, he needs to spend a fair chunk of money on gear for his various classes, but yeah, I think the adventurer cover is going too far.

A better alternative, like I mentioned earlier, might be to dole out special abilities piecemeal. Like, at level 1 you can add one ability per cover identity, 2 at 5, and so on.

[Veklim]

Nice concept, well executed.
Feels a little light on skills though. They get 8+int and are assumed to have a reasonable int score, but only have access to 9 class skills. Worse still is that they have no UMD, which is very odd since the whole concept of the class would point towards an affinity for 'faking' requirements like no other class I've seen. They should probably have access to all knowledges too, any spy worth his salt has a smattering of at least 3 or 4 knowledges, bits and pieces which help keep under cover. Lastly I'd advise diplomacy and intimidate, both are perfectly valid information gathering skills in the right circumstances, and this way a player would have an easier time making an unusual build.

That's about it dude, can't see much else needs changing, super sweet! :smallbiggrin:

EDIT:


I also need to be forbidden from making Spy (and maybe Factotum and any homebrew 20 level Chameleon classes) viable classes to have cover identities of. I actually agree, didn't read adventurer cover too closely at first... Perhaps cap out any PC class at half HD instead..?

[jojolagger]

EDIT:
I actually agree, didn't read adventurer cover too closely at first... Perhaps cap out any PC class at half HD instead..?
That would probably be a bit too low. Getting individual abilities, like Grod said, would probably be the best way.


Nice concept, well executed.
Feels a little light on skills though. They get 8+int and are assumed to have a reasonable int score, but only have access to 9 class skills. Worse still is that they have no UMD, which is very odd since the whole concept of the class would point towards an affinity for 'faking' requirements like no other class I've seen. They should probably have access to all knowledges too, any spy worth his salt has a smattering of at least 3 or 4 knowledges, bits and pieces which help keep under cover. Lastly I'd advise diplomacy and intimidate, both are perfectly valid information gathering skills in the right circumstances, and this way a player would have an easier time making an unusual build.
Cover: Aldanon, the sage, Expert with max ranks in his pile of knowledge skills
And you can have 3 covers at 3rd level.

[ideasmith]

Versatility themed classes are my absolute favorite, so kudos on your creation! I just did a once over for now, but I'll try to dig a bit deeper and add some useful feedback afterwards.
Thank you.

On the other hand, no-one in game is going to know what class you are,
If nobody can tell what you’re disguised as, it’s an awfully poor disguise.

and the unexpected power could prove handy if your cover gets blown.
An ability that only gets used when the cover gets blown would not make sense as part of a cover.

I would stick with the NPC classes, but give him the ability to start adding extra bits to them. Like boosting an identity's hit point bonus, or adding to the spell list, or gaining a favored enemy, or a single use of Rage. That sort of thing.
No, I don’t think the covers should have added abilities whose use makes it harder to keep cover.

Check it! I have the abilities of a level 18 erudite (all powers), a level 18 wizard (all arcane spells), a level 18 archivist (all divine spells), and a level 18 artificer (can focus feats of crafting efficiency.).
I have every skill in the game.
I have access to every spell in the game.
Every night, I put on make-up before going to be so I can hunt via lucid dreaming.
(I am not familiar with erudite, archivist, or artificer.) While I don’t see how the wizard is getting bard spells, and the spy would only get a fraction of that in any one encounter, this doesn’t sound good.

Could a level 20 adept drop the locate city bomb via sudden meta-magic?
I don’t see how.

Can one of the spy's cover identities be another spy?
Yes. I figure that if I tone it down enough that the spy class works as a cover, it will work with any other balanced class.

Jojolagger is correct that this is quite a bit two strong.

By contrast, my own Chameleon-style class (which was right up against the border of hideously overpowered) capped out at 13th-15th level for multiple classes. With the Spy, however, I can be a level 18 Wizard...and then immediately upon exhausting all my spells become a level 18 Warblade and wade into melee. I could instead become a level 18 Druid, and cast a whole separate bunch of spells. Note that by level 20 this takes only a single round.
A minute, since druid would be an adventuring cover.

Either way, I get 4 Adventurer covers. The ability to be, say, a Psion 18 | Warblade 18 | Wizard 18 | Artificer 18 is an insane amount of both power and versatility...probably to much. This needs to be toned down to a more reasonable level.
Obviously, this recently added class feature isn’t yet balanced right.

I also need to be forbidden from making Spy (and maybe Factotum and any homebrew 20 level Chameleon classes) viable classes to have cover identities of.
I am going with a different approach here.

Nice concept, well executed.
Feels a little light on skills though. They get 8+int and are assumed to have a reasonable int score, but only have access to 9 class skills.
Good point.

Worse still is that they have no UMD, which is very odd since the whole concept of the class would point towards an affinity for 'faking' requirements like no other class I've seen.
Sounds good.

They should probably have access to all knowledges too, any spy worth his salt has a smattering of at least 3 or 4 knowledges, bits and pieces which help keep under cover.
Sounds more like a class feature.

Lastly I'd advise diplomacy and intimidate, both are perfectly valid information gathering skills in the right circumstances, and this way a player would have an easier time making an unusual build.
Sounds good.

That's about it dude, can't see much else needs changing, super sweet! :smallbiggrin:

EDIT:

I actually agree, didn't read adventurer cover too closely at first... Perhaps cap out any PC class at half HD instead..?
Good idea.

[jojolagger]

(I am not familiar with erudite, archivist, or artificer.) While I don’t see how the wizard is getting bard spells, and the spy would only get a fraction of that in any one encounter, this doesn’t sound good.
Wizards can copy any arcane spell into their spellbook from a scroll. Give a bard scribe scroll and your set.
Erudite is basically a psion who can learn powers from other manifesters, and is limited to a certain number on unique powers each day based on level (but they don't have to be chosen before hand.)
Archivist is a divine wizard who's 2 spells a level come off the cleric list but can add spells to their prayer book from any divine scroll.
Artificers are focused crafters who can make magic items without knowing the spells needed, and can have access to any spell within about 4 days, unless it's level 4 or lower, in which case it's 1 minute. Also, they can spend feats to get cheaper crafting, and can do it to the point its unfair.
The Erudite|Wizard|Archivist|Spy with Artificer|Factotum|Warblade. Has ninth level divine spells, ninth level arcane spells, ninth level powers, all important artificer abilities, eighth level maneuvers, and the mighty skills of a factotum. You aren't playing as a single character, your playing as a large group of interchangeable but slightly weaker characters.
This class could beat most tier 1's. That is bad. If you can get the abilities of multiple classes, you shouldn't get 9th level spells or their equivalents until epic.

[Grod_The_Giant]

If nobody can tell what you’re disguised as, it’s an awfully poor disguise.
You missed the point. No-one in the game world can tell that you're an Adept if you call yourself a sorcerer and only cast spells from the sorcerer list, or vice versa. Your race and class aren't written in glowing letters above your head.


An ability that only gets used when the cover gets blown would not make sense as part of a cover.
It would be pretty easy to fake being a warrior as a Warblade, but if the worst happens, and you DO have to fight your way out, the extra power would be good...


No, I don’t think the covers should have added abilities whose use makes it harder to keep cover.
The idea is that it makes it EASIER to impersonate, say, a barbarian, or a rogue, if you can demonstrate a few of the iconic features. You don't HAVE to use your abilities if it's going to get you in trouble- not to mention that not every game is intrigue-heavy.

[ideasmith]

Latest Revision is now up. Check the Change Log for a list of changes.


You missed the point. No-one in the game world can tell that you're an Adept if you call yourself a sorcerer and only cast spells from the sorcerer list, or vice versa. Your race and class aren't written in glowing letters above your head.
If casting cure disease endangers the cover, then cure disease should not be part of the cover in the first place. Your suggested change is a poor fit to the class concept, adds complexity to the class, makes it harder for the player to tell which abilities fit the cover (something the character should know by rote), and only allows those classes someone did the work of adding pseudocovers for.

It would be pretty easy to fake being a warrior as a Warblade, but if the worst happens, and you DO have to fight your way out, the extra power would be good...
A spy desperate enough to break cover should be switching to abilities that aren’t part of the cover. Not abilities that are part of the cover.

The idea is that it makes it EASIER to impersonate, say, a barbarian, or a rogue, if you can demonstrate a few of the iconic features. You don't HAVE to use your abilities if it's going to get you in trouble-
Using a block of wood makes it EASIER to hammer in a nail. Nevertheless, carpenters don’t learn to hammer nails with blocks of wood; they learn to use hammers.

not to mention that not every game is intrigue-heavy.
Are you suggesting that I change a class called ‘spy’ to make it unsuitable for intrigue-heavy games? Djinn_in_Tonic’s class (here) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100597) may be more what you are looking for.

[jojolagger]

Latest Revision is now up. Check the Change Log for a list of changes.

I think you were a little heavy with the nerf bat there. 5th level spells does not make a reasonable caster at level 20. Maybe something similar, but 3/4?


Using a block of wood makes it EASIER to hammer in a nail. Nevertheless, carpenters don’t learn to hammer nails with blocks of wood; they learn to use hammers.

Are you suggesting that I change a class called ‘spy’ to make it unsuitable for intrigue-heavy games? Djinn_in_Tonic’s class (here) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100597) may be more what you are looking for.
Making a class unsuitable for intrigue heavy games and making a class more suitable for more common games are two different things.
Also the suggested use of added features to NPC classes would likely be more balanced than adventuring covers. What is the difference between a warrior and a barbarian? Primarily Rage. An expert and a rouge? Trapfinding and sneak attack.
Have one of the possible added abilities be limited bonus feats and a warrior cover becomes a fighter cover. It is there to change the cover to be more like a PC class, not make it harder to keep the cover.

[ideasmith]

I think you were a little heavy with the nerf bat there. 5th level spells does not make a reasonable caster at level 20. Maybe something similar, but 3/4?
Whereas I’m thinking it may need more nerfing. The PC covers might still be more useful than the NPC covers.

Making a class unsuitable for intrigue heavy games and making a class more suitable for more common games are two different things.
And a D&D class called ‘spy’ should be both.

Also the suggested use of added features to NPC classes would likely be more balanced than adventuring covers.
If adventuring cover is still too powerful, I can nerf it more, or take it back out.

What is the difference between a warrior and a barbarian? Primarily Rage. An expert and a rouge? Trapfinding and sneak attack.
Have one of the possible added abilities be limited bonus feats and a warrior cover becomes a fighter cover. It is there to change the cover to be more like a PC class, not make it harder to keep the cover.
I appreciate both Grod_The_Giant’s good intentions in making this suggestion, and your good intentions in encouraging it. However, good intentions aren’t going to make that ability fit this class.
‘Copies-NPC-With-Added-PC-Class-Abilities’ might be a good idea for a class. It is very much not a good idea for this class.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I appreciate both Grod_The_Giant’s good intentions in making this suggestion, and your good intentions in encouraging it. However, good intentions aren’t going to make that ability fit this class.
‘Copies-NPC-With-Added-PC-Class-Abilities’ might be a good idea for a class. It is very much not a good idea for this class.

Last post on the topic, I promise. The point we're trying to make is that you need to strike a balance. Not every game will be so intrigue-heavy that you can get away with minimal combat ability, but neither will every game be so combat heavy that this class becomes useless. Your class shows a lot of potential by being able to change from day to day, even more than the Chameleon (not to put down Djin_In_Tonic's fine work).

Any kind of intrigue is going to be roleplaying heavy. Being able to perfectly emulate a class will help, but what it really comes down to are diplomacy skills and the player's ability to think on his feet. The actual mechanics of what your class can do are less important. However, most games include some combat, where the mechanics are very important.

I'm not saying that you should make your class less intrigue-specific. But you already have that in spades; nothing short of a complete overhaul of the cover mechanic (which no-one is suggesting) will affect that. Jojolagger and I are trying to fin a middle ground between the simplicity-but-weakness of NPC classes and the power-and-complexity of PC classes. As it is now, the Adventurer covers are the only ones most players will be interested in, because the multitude of NPC covers are so boring.

Having abilities that don't quite fit the cover can be a problem, but not a major one. There are so many ways to break cover that DON'T involve casting a spell that others may or may not recognize as belonging to the wrong school-- hell, most people won't even be able to guess at what spell you just cast.

...I guess what I'm trying to say is that intrigue is largely a matter of role-playing, and the basic mechanic of the class already strongly supports it. But D&D is as much a war game as it is a role-playing one, and class balance must be evaluated in both lights. Why is the Fighter bad? It can be made into a passable combatant, but it can't do anything but fight. You seem to be wavering between making the Spy overpowered (adventurer covers) and useless in combat (NPC covers only).

We're not trying to turn your class into something you don't want it to be.

[Realms of Chaos]

Other previous homebrew that may serve as inspiration:

Kellus' Spy class: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89385) Makes a unique role for spies beyond "be everyone else" and seems capable of actual infiltration beyond simply blending in (Interesting concepts include the ability to make an effectively unlimited number of cover identities that grant minimal mechanical bonuses, ventriloquism at will, fake spellcasting, and perfect memory [for remembering stolen plans and such]).

Surrealistik's Spy class: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136315) Again, this class makes spy into more of a role that doesn't imitate other people but that disguises as people. Unlike Kellus' class, this one also has sneak attack on top of its skill-monkeyness and thus steps on the toes of rogues (Interesting ideas include the ability to detect secret things around you, specialization in poison, and some specific combat abilities that lean towards a more assassin-ish approach befiting spies).

FMArthur's Chameleon Base Class: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11322346) Another imagining of Chameleon as a base class that seems a tad better-balanced in my personal opinion. Again, the ability to imitate given "archetypes" to get any number of combinations of individuals seems useful.

My Mimic Base Class: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175508) This class was an attempt to perfect the art of becoming other people. It does this quite well (copying spells, feats, skills, creating disguises, and so forth) though I'll admit that it's technically not a "spy" (still amazing for infiltration purposes, however).

Edit: Let's see if I can be a bit more constructive with this post.

Looking at this class, it doesn't look much like a spy to me. Well, I suppose that it could fit a loose definitions of spy if you're talking about getting sleeper agents into an enemy kingdom or something but I'm not seeing anything here that would help this class sneak its way into a secret organization or infiltrate a royal court. There's nothing here that will help this guy steal or memorize secret plans, use poison, gather intel, leave secret messages for allies, sabotage a group from within, fake their own death, or do other traditional "spy" things.

Even if you argue that this class is able to pose as a nobody and enter a group from the ground up, any barbarian 20 or cleric 20 can simply pretend to lack their class features and nobody would be able to tell that they aren't a level 1 warrior/expert/commoner unless they try to kill the character (in which case the jig is up either way). Better yet, a rogue or beguiler could make the same claims and have the bluff/disguise checks necessary to back them up.

No, the only real advantage in this persona-adopting approach would seem to be that you could remain rather anonymous to do your work (which is awesome and useful as that barbarian/cleric above is liable to be quite famous by level 20). Putting aside that anonymity doesn't quite seem like enough to be a spy and that having a limited number of cover identities kind of defeats the purpose (as they could all be recorded), you are missing class features to help with that anonymity (such as the ability to use hide checks in a crowd, requiring Wisdom checks to remember your face after casual contact, imitating the alabi spell (from Exemplars of Evil) with a bluff check, hiding in plain sight, or avoiding enemy detection in the midst of combat) and all of your power is coming from the abilities you borrow rather than coming from any specific "spy" techniques.

The very mechanics behind assuming cover identities seem a bit wierd in and off themselves. For example, a good bit of the powr of this class comes from the ability to basically play 26 different characters with totally different feats and skills and everything. To assume a decent cover, however, this is WAAAAAY more than what's necessary. I can't think of any real need that an infiltrator would have for more than 3 specific feats and taking something like the Jack-of-All-Trades from Djinn's Chameleon seems a lot simpler (and more versatile, which is good for a spy) than having several different set allotments of skill points. Rather than giving bonus hit points, it seems easier to just give the spy a d8 HD to start with (again, if the enemy is dealing enough damage to "kill" your cover identity on purpose, the jig is pretty much up). Note that none of these three things need necessarily be a part of the cover identity class feature.

Looking at actual cover identities, you might want to look less at CScoundrel's Mountebank (with has a limited supply of alternate egos) and more towards CAdventurer's Spymaster (which has a limited number of cover identities that can be replaced as needed and mainly provide disguise bonuses). The ability to create more cover identities as the ones you make are discovered is pretty much vital for a spy to have a long career but your current system in which each new disguise would give new allotments of feats and skills would make this overpowered (hence the suggested changes above). Also, as having your cover blown is it's own failure, the bonuses for having your cover blown seem a bit redundant and can probably be dumped.

For reasons of practicality more than anything else, I'd lower the starting time needed to don a cover identity to 1 hour and lower from there as having to stop the action for a full day is a bit of a drag regardless of whether you're in a setting of intrigue or adventure.

While I think that PC covers aren't quite necessary, I understand that some things such as spells and a barbarian's rage might be necessary to imitate in order to gain access to a group. For this purpose, I'd suggest class features that imitate the visual appearance of spells (Kellus' spy above has a decent mechanic) and a separate one to imitate the visual appearance of class features (such as rage).

After this, just add on some of the spy-ish class features listed above, perhaps some resistance to mind-affecting effects/interrogation (if caught or sneaking into a cult), and some form of spy-like fighting mechanic (which could be more like sneak attack/sudden strike or more social like the backstabber and combat puppetry class features of the charlatan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201902) class I made) and you have something that looks more like a spy (at least as I understand spy archetypes/tropes).

If you want to have a class that acts whose purpose is to act as 26-characters in one, I don't have any problem with that. Both chameleons listed in this thread and my mimic linked to above have that type of feel and you carry it further in a way by making each of these separate characters more unique from each other. Even so, that type of class doesn't quite feel like a "spy" in any but pretty loose meanings of the word.