The Master Thief, a Spellthief PrC (3.5 PEACH?)

[NeoSeraphi]

I posted this for my Tome of Neutrality (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220877), but I want to get some good PEACH here so I'm going to give it its own thread and see what everyone thinks.


The Master Thief

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/Wulfeous/Rikku.jpg

Prerequisites: To become a Master Thief, you must meet the following prerequisites:

Class: Spellthief Level 10 (Complete Adventurer)
Alignment: Any nongood, nonevil

Hit Dice: d6

Class Skills: Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Disable Device (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Search (Int), Speak Language (n/a), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Skill Points: 6+Int Per Level

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|Sneak Attack

1st|+0|+0|+2|+2|Selfish Magic| +1d6

2nd|+1|+0|+3|+3|Selfish Wands| +2d6

3rd|+2|+1|+3|+3|Steal Spell (5th)| +3d6

4th|+3|+1|+4|+4|Improved Steal Spell Effect | +4d6

5th|+3|+1|+4|+4|Steal Spell (6th) | +5d6

6th|+4|+2|+5|+5|Discover Spells | +6d6

7th|+5|+2|+5|+5|Steal Spell (7th) | +7d6

8th|+6|+2|+6|+6|Selfish Absorb Spell | +8d6

9th|+6|+3|+6|+6|Steal Spell (8th) | +9d6

10th|+7|+3|+7|+7|The End Justifies My Means | +10d6
[/table]

Class Features:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The master thief gains no additional proficiencies.

Selfish Magic (Ex): A master thief doesn't bother with shrinking his opponents or saving his friends. He has only a few spells available to him, and they're reserved for him and him alone. A master spellthief adds his class level to his spellthief caster level to determine his spellthief caster level, but only when casting spells that have a range of personal, or a range of touch that the master thief targets himself with (For the purposes of this class feature, the master thief is defined as the entity that is performing the ability. He does not receive the benefit of this feature when targeting a simalcrum or some other such nonsense). Additionally, the master thief adds his class level to his spellthief class level for the purpose of the check made to Absorb Spells and to determine the maximum combined levels of spells he can store.

Sneak Attack (Ex): At every level, a master thief gains an additional dice of Sneak Attack damage (see the spellthief class feature of the same name). All sources of Sneak Attack damage stack with each other.

Alternatively, a master thief may sacrifice his sneak attack progression. If he does so, he continues progressing his spellcasting from his spellthief class, as if the master thief prestige class was a full spellcasting progression PrC.

Selfish Wands (Ex): A master thief is able to utilize magic items to an amazing extent, but only when he targets himself with them. This comes from the spellthief's natural ability to absorb and recast spells.

When a master thief of 2nd level or higher makes a Use Magic Device check to attempt to activate a scroll or wand, he receives a perfection bonus on the check equal to his class level, but only if the only target of the spell he is casting is himself. Additionally, if those conditions are met, the master thief may always take 10 on his Use Magic Device checks, regardless of whether he is under stress or threatened (For the purposes of this class feature, the master thief is defined as the entity who is performing the ability, he does not gain the benefits of this feature when targeting a simalcrum or some other such nonsense).

Steal Spell (Su): As the spellthief ability of the same name.

Improved Steal Spell Effect (Su): Starting at 4th level, whenever a master thief steals a spell effect, he may steal up to 1 extra spell effect per 2 class levels (maximum of 5 extra spell effects at level 10) instead (if he is drawing from a willing target, the target must be willing to give away each spell effect).

Discover Spells (Ex): As the spellthief ability of the same name.

Selfish Absorb Spell (Su): Starting at 8th level, a master thief may absorb any spell that is cast within 100 feet, as long as that spell has a single target. This ability is an immediate action. To do this, the master thief must have line of sight and effect to the target of the spell and to the caster. He must be able to see and hear the caster who is casting the spell. He rolls a d20, and adds his spellthief level+his master thief level to that. If his total roll beats the DC (Caster level+11), he becomes the new target of the spell (Even if he is outside the spell's range).

If the spell is harmful, the master thief may succeed his save and absorb it as usual. If the spell is harmless, he may allow it to be cast on him and enjoy its benefits as if he were the target all along. The spellthief may absorb spells from any caster, willing or unwilling, enemy or ally.

The End Justifies My Means (Su): A master thief will do anything to protect his own life. Anything at all. Starting at 10th level, the master thief may use his ability to absorb magic to absorb the life essence of all creatures around him.

Activating this ability is a full-round action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. All creatures within 60 feet of him (including allies), must make a Will save (DC 20+the master thief's Charisma modifier) or take 5d6+10 points of negative energy damage. (A successful Will save negates the effect)

The master thief may only affect up to twenty different creatures with this ability, starting with the ones closest to him. If a choice needs to be made because there are too many creatures but they are equally far from the spellthief, the DM selects who the ability drains from.

The master thief recovers hit points equal to the total amount of damage dealt to all creatures.

Doing this is both deadly and exhausting. The master thief may not perform this ability again for one hour, and during that time, his ability to absorb spells is completely negated.

[Elfstone]

I this spell thief falling into the same trap the original spellthief did. The fact that its relatively easy to negate speak attack... Forcing the Spellthief to find other, more expensive ways to bypass the immunity.

Perhaps a Selfish X (Aura perhaps?) where no one can take from you the ability to deal extra damage with your sneak attack?

Anyway, I like the other abilities, although the forced sneak attack or spellcasting trade off is a bit harsh. Perhaps every other level you get both?

[NeoSeraphi]

I this spell thief falling into the same trap the original spellthief did. The fact that its relatively easy to negate speak attack... Forcing the Spellthief to find other, more expensive ways to bypass the immunity.

Perhaps a Selfish X (Aura perhaps?) where no one can take from you the ability to deal extra damage with your sneak attack?

Immunity to Sneak Attack is a DM counter to this class. Removing DM counters is an inappropriate method of improving classes for homebrew. (In my opinion)

If your DM is throwing monsters that are immune to Sneak Attack at you, it's because he wants to challenge you, or give everyone else a chance to shine and deal damage. There's nothing wrong with that.


Anyway, I like the other abilities, although the forced sneak attack or spellcasting trade off is a bit harsh. Perhaps every other level you get both?

I originally only had Sneak Attack progression, only adding in the progressed spellcasting option at the suggestion of a PEACHer. Having both would be too powerful, in my opinion. This isn't a gish class, it's simply a powerful rogue or a really weak caster.

[NeoSeraphi]

Please, gentlemen (and ladies), I need your homebrewing expertise! Please help me balance this class properly!

[Elfstone]

Immunity to Sneak Attack is a DM counter to this class. Removing DM counters is an inappropriate method of improving classes for homebrew. (In my opinion)

If your DM is throwing monsters that are immune to Sneak Attack at you, it's because he wants to challenge you, or give everyone else a chance to shine and deal damage. There's nothing wrong with that.



I originally only had Sneak Attack progression, only adding in the progressed spellcasting option at the suggestion of a PEACHer. Having both would be too powerful, in my opinion. This isn't a gish class, it's simply a powerful rogue or a really weak caster.
Constructs.

Immunity to sneak attacks is a counter to rouges, scouts, assassins, and anything else that uses precision damage.

Being able to shine no mater what the enemy is make the class fun. Not being able to use class abilities is not fun.

However, your class, your decision.

How is it NOT a gish class? It takes spells from other via melee, to cast on themselves or use to power their own spells. While it certainly has a focus on melee, its spellcasting ability should not be ignore. Thats how I've always played the class.

Also, what exactly do you want opinions on? The balance of the class compared to what? The Tier system? The original Spellthief?

[NeoSeraphi]

Constructs.

Immunity to sneak attacks is a counter to rouges, scouts, assassins, and anything else that uses precision damage.

Being able to shine no mater what the enemy is make the class fun. Not being able to use class abilities is not fun.

However, your class, your decision.


The spellthief is able to cast golem strike, and can UMD a wand of vine strike, so if it's really a problem, he can Sneak Attack constructs and plants. I don't remember if there is a spell that lets you Sneak Attack elementals or undead, but...



How is it NOT a gish class? It takes spells from other via melee, to cast on themselves or use to power their own spells. While it certainly has a focus on melee, its spellcasting ability should not be ignore. Thats how I've always played the class.


It's not a gish. It is a skill-monkey and a glass-cannon with an interesting and flavorful ability. But it cannot cast more than 2-4 spells per day (unless you advance its spellcasting over its Sneak Attack, which makes it a caster with 3/4 BAB, not a gish)



Also, what exactly do you want opinions on? The balance of the class compared to what? The Tier system? The original Spellthief?

I want opinions on the Selfish Absorb Spell and the The End Justifies My Means abilities.

[Elfstone]

Both the DC's seem balanced to me. The first requires a 10 on the roll to steal spells made by someone with a caster level equal to your level, which is fine. The second... Not so sure. Assuming the DC is something like 26-28 and the average will save at 20th level is 13ish for fighter types, and 20s for casters it should work fairly well. If you want to make it work more effectively on spellcasters and less on noncasters, that could be nice (considering he is adept at stealing spells from casters, and can only sneak attack noncasters.)

I'd say the balance is fine for what you seem to want out of the class.

[boomwolf]

Seems nice, except the irrational Sneak Attack development, having +1d6 per level is off-the-chart, a "normal" advancement to SA Prc is every even level...

[NeoSeraphi]

Seems nice, except the irrational Sneak Attack development, having +1d6 per level is off-the-chart, a "normal" advancement to SA Prc is every even level...

Yeah, but "normal" advancement is for rogues, who get it every odd level. Meanwhile spellthieves get it once every 3 levels, so a spellthief 10 only has +3d6 Sneak Attack. The extra Sneak Attack is to make the spellthief better at fighting normal enemies (non-casters), so he's not as useless when he's not doing his thieving thing.

[boomwolf]

That may be true, but this way he totals with 13d6 in level 20 while a real rouge has only 10d6, and no magic thieving capabilities.

This class simply makes the spellthief outshine the rouge in the rouge's own specialty, while the spellthief has sneak-attack as a simple bonus trick with magic-stealing as his primary shtick...

Heck, by level 15 you catch up to any rouge build in terms of sneak attack, and from then on suppress it!

It NEEDS to be turned down for a sense of balance to even take place. a spellthief is a rogue/mage hybrid, not a superogue/mage gestalt...

[Delegreg]

What you all didn't see is the main flaw of all this (btw i'm playing a spellthief at the moment).

This is a spellthief PrC that does NOT improve on the spellthief signature ability.

Steal spell has a maximum capacity (ie : the spellthief may only store X levels of stolen spells). That max capacity is equal to the spellthief level. This Prc does not improve it.

So this is only a skeleton to improve either the spellcasting OR sneak attack damage, but through it all, the spell stealing CAPACITY stays the same.

Many flaws are present in the original spellthief class, this does not attempt to fix them, only make them worse IMHO.

PS : And why neither good nor evil ? Why are chaotic or lawful allowed but not good ol' evil ?

[NeoSeraphi]

What you all didn't see is the main flaw of all this (btw i'm playing a spellthief at the moment).

This is a spellthief PrC that does NOT improve on the spellthief signature ability.

Steal spell has a maximum capacity (ie : the spellthief may only store X levels of stolen spells). That max capacity is equal to the spellthief level. This Prc does not improve it.

So this is only a skeleton to improve either the spellcasting OR sneak attack damage, but through it all, the spell stealing CAPACITY stays the same.

Many flaws are present in the original spellthief class, this does not attempt to fix them, only make them worse IMHO.

Alright, I'll update Selfish Magic to increase the maximum capacity of stolen spells.

And I'm not "fixing flaws" in the spellthief class. It's not a spellthief fix, it's a spellthief PrC.


PS : And why neither good nor evil ? Why are chaotic or lawful allowed but not good ol' evil ?

It's supposed to be a class about protecting your interests, both self-serving and self-preserving. That makes it morally neutral.

[NeoSeraphi]

That may be true, but this way he totals with 13d6 in level 20 while a real rouge has only 10d6, and no magic thieving capabilities.

This class simply makes the spellthief outshine the rouge in the rouge's own specialty, while the spellthief has sneak-attack as a simple bonus trick with magic-stealing as his primary shtick...

Heck, by level 15 you catch up to any rouge build in terms of sneak attack, and from then on suppress it!

It NEEDS to be turned down for a sense of balance to even take place. a spellthief is a rogue/mage hybrid, not a superogue/mage gestalt...

You're right. But you forgot to take one thing into account: I hate rogues and I think they are a terrible balance point and they don't deal nearly as much damage as people think they do. So I don't really care if I outpace a rogue. I hate rogues as much as most people on this site hate fighters.