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Venom3053000
2011-11-07, 02:12 PM
so am looking over the forum and see Batman vs Zomibes, and that gets me thinking how would some superheros do against zomibes not Superman or any one else who destroys the planet by sneezing more like Spiderman or Red tornado or any one else from Marvel or DC, how many can a hero destory before theirs overwhelmed 1000? 10000? 1000000? do they try and cure them first or do they just start destroying them, and what about the villains what do they do?

Candle Jack
2011-11-07, 02:15 PM
ZOMBIES. Z-O-M-B-I-E-S. And it depends on the type of zombies.

How DC Comics heroes would deal with a zombie apocalypse is explored in Blackest Night. Answer: the zombies lost.

Venom3053000
2011-11-07, 02:17 PM
i just noticed that it always seems no matter how time i spend looking at what i type i miss some thing important

edit seems i missed puting a much in there and a comma and a period :smallfurious:

Lillith
2011-11-07, 02:24 PM
Marvel has a whole universe that is infested by zombies I believe. The zombies pretty much win by the time the story gets there. It wasn't pretty. The series is appropriately named 'Marvel Zombies' and exists of 5 parts.

Besides that though I think every superhero that doesn't have a huge powerful incapacitating attack is going to lose sooner or later. The zombies will just keep coming until they tire out. Take someone like Batman, he'll run out of weapons if he's not careful. Spiderman, I'm not sure how much web he can shoot but after a while you can't continue capturing zombies in nets, they'll escape or you'll run out of room to hang them. Starfire could stay in the air and shoot everything with her beam spam.

Now someone like Scott Summers/Cyclops will just have to walk around without glasses all day (sorta maybe).

Now other heroes might have 'useless' powers in this situation though could come in handy depending on the circumstances. Think Aquaman if zombies don't go into water or Hawkgirl as long as she can fly.

Everybody else I dunno. (I put way too much thought in this)

kpenguin
2011-11-07, 02:27 PM
You use Red Tornado as an example and I think he's a hero who would do exceptionally well against zombies. His android nature makes him immune to actual infection and his superhuman abilities allow him to handle and contain large crowds with ease.

generally, I would say a superhuman setting would probably contain an outbreak fairly quickly. Well, a normal setting with intelligent people would contain an outbreak easily, but zombie tropes and such.

This changes if zombies are able to infect a superhuman that can spread the disease quickly. Bite the Flash and suddenly he's infecting people all over the globe.

...then again, zombie!Flash seems unlikely to be able to access the Speed Force.

EDIT: I'd give good odds for Spider-Man being able to survive a zombie horde assuming no superhumans. He's fast enough to get away from them very quickly. Superhumanly agile enough that even normal human martial artists have trouble hitting him, much less slow geriatic zombies. Spider-sense helps to prevent him being snuck up on.

Anarion
2011-11-07, 02:41 PM
What kinds of zombies are we dealing with here? Slow shamblers aren't going to do so well against any superhero, all of whom have good enough situational awareness to not get randomly taken by surprise by a slow horde and enough escape abilities and resources to handle them easily.

On the other hand, if we're talking about a speedy horde with special types of zombies (i.e. Left 4 Dead style) then the zombies could probably make a fight out of it.

Also, as kpenguin noted, if a superhero could get infected and spread the disease, it would quickly turn in favor of the zombies. So one issue would be the location of superheroes around the world. Are they all up in a space station somewhere (as the Justice League is wont to do)? Then they can organize and handle the threat. Are some of the weaker superheroes sleeping down on earth at various times and vulnerable to surprise infection? Then suddenly the zombies have a big power boost.

Venom3053000
2011-11-07, 02:42 PM
EDIT: I'd give good odds for Spider-Man being able to survive a zombie horde assuming no superhumans. He's fast enough to get away from them very quickly. Superhumanly agile enough that even normal human martial artists have trouble hitting him, much less slow geriatic zombies. Spider-sense helps to prevent him being snuck up on.

i agree zombies even the ones that can run are not a threat to spiderman, he fast agile enough that their not going to catch him and thats not mentioning that he mostly tarvels by web or that he can lift 20,000 pounds meaning he can a car at them.

edit to answer the question that was just posted while i was takeing way to much time looking over this and type this

am torn between the left for dead or 28 days probably the left for dead the different types would make it harder for the heros

am going to go with the heros just heard about the zombies in what ever city from that it starts in and from whatever heros have found out and told them about it.

edit 2 sorry cities, some heros or villins may have bitten in their sleep or whatever

also wondering if heros with a healing factor can become zombies

Scarlet Knight
2011-11-07, 03:21 PM
Heroes with area of affect powers would do better but they must have a way to rest regardless. Cyclops would do great , but he needs to sleep sometime.

Also are they infectious zombies? They could chew all day on Wolverine, but would he be a zombie himself after the first bite?

Venom3053000
2011-11-07, 03:28 PM
yes the zombies are infectious

no i don't Wolverine has to worry about becoming a zombie, but what about the other heros who have a weak healing factor thats something am thinking about.

Dr.Epic
2011-11-07, 03:29 PM
This idea has been done before. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Zombies) Speaking of which, if the the Avengers film is a hit, what are the odds we get a Marvel Zombies live action film?

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-07, 04:02 PM
This idea has been done before. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Zombies) Speaking of which, if the the Avengers film is a hit, what are the odds we get a Marvel Zombies live action film?

And done better by the Distinguished Competition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackest_Night)
And Zero or I will boycott Marvel's movies in addition to their comics.

Anyways I think it well established that human zombies are not a threat to even normal human civilization, much less one with superheroes. So you need super-zombies to even get anywhere.

chiasaur11
2011-11-07, 04:15 PM
And done better by the Distinguished Competition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackest_Night)
And Zero or I will boycott Marvel's movies in addition to their comics.

Anyways I think it well established that human zombies are not a threat to even normal human civilization, much less one with superheroes. So you need super-zombies to even get anywhere.

I'd argue pretty strong against the better.

Blackest night, even assuming people stomach it on its own limited merits, don't got Aaron Stack killing his way through the zombieverse while drunk and surly.

Seriously, Stack is very, very good at dealing with the undead. Marvel's main universe held off periodic zombie incursions without skipping a beat. Of course, parallel worlds? Less lucky. One ended in I Am Legend starring Frank Castle.

kpenguin
2011-11-07, 04:18 PM
I will note that both Blackest Night and Marvel Zombies deviate from normal movie zombies in a big way in that the zombies were all intelligent. Zombie superhumans with an insatiable appetite for brains that can plan, think, and organize (and use superpowers properly) are a lot more dangerous than regular shamblers.

Traab
2011-11-07, 04:59 PM
Ok, question time. In this scenario, are you talking about how long say, spiderman, could stand face to face with a horde of zombies and take them down before being overwhelmed? Is the hero allowed to withdraw and find a safe spot to hide? Or is this a straight up slugfest till the hero dies sort of thing? Like, spiderman is protecting a busload of nuns and puppies and cant withdraw or else we will have zombie puppynuns shortly afterwards? If the hero is allowed to stick and move, withdraw to safety and rest then come back for more, id say most of the decent ones would be unlimited number of zombies and only random chance would bring them down in the end. A slip while trying to dodge, not withdrawing soon enough and making a mistake due to tiredness. Things like that.

Also, there are a number of superheroes who are ill suited for a zombie showdown. Someone like static shock. His electricity is useless in a direct manner. Yes he could improvise and use his sewer grate as a fly wheel to decapitate zombies, but he is still handicapped. Plus, he seems to run out of juice a lot faster than most heroes, going by his cartoon. Its a constant theme in his adventures, having to withdraw and recharge and getting his butt kicked until he can.

The flash would be unstoppable, give him a blade and a boat in the middle of the ocean and the zombies dont stand a prayer. He would go ultra blender on them faster than they can realize he is there, and when he gets tired, go take a nap at sea.

Wonder Woman would also kick ass. She would have no problem using a blade, and her super strength lets her punch zombie heads off. Her problem is no real easy escape method and she aint exactly well protected from random bites. Id say she would start strong, then get swarmed and get an unlucky bite.

Wolverine is either an unstoppable beast, or easy prey. All hangs on if his healing factor makes him immune. Worst case scenario, assuming immunity to zombie mode, he gets pinned under a swarm and is feasted on for all eternity. Thats a pretty grim scenario. If he isnt immune, wolverine is not one to worry about avoiding damage. He would be bitten fast imo.

Basically, any superhero that lacks a method of easy and instant escape would be dragged down eventually. Any superhero that lacks a method of avoiding all attempts to be bitten, whether its super speed, or ranged attacks from a safe spot, would be bitten.

Venom3053000
2011-11-07, 05:13 PM
its pretty much the hero or heros just heard about the zombies in what ever cities from that it starts in and from whatever heros have found out and told them about it.

so if like the x men learned about zombies attacking a city from iron man or if just one day spiderman woke up and their were zombies outside

and i pretty much decide if you healing factor means you can be disemboweled and live you can't become a zombie

edit i forgot to mention heros would probably stand and fight if there are people but any villains there would probably run

TheEmerged
2011-11-07, 05:23 PM
Wonder Woman would also kick ass. She would have no problem using a blade, and her super strength lets her punch zombie heads off. Her problem is no real easy escape method and she aint exactly well protected from random bites. Id say she would start strong, then get swarmed and get an unlucky bite.

Wonder Woman has been able to fly at Mach speeds for, oh, twenty five years or so. It's been established she also has a low end of superspeed for quite some time as well. Her lasso has also been shown to be a plot-nuke against zombies in the past (and yes, I'll be the first to say it was the power of PLOT). She's also been shown to wear armor when she 'gets serious'.

You're right about her ability to wipe them early, but I think you underestimate her staying power.

Traab
2011-11-07, 05:30 PM
Wonder Woman has been able to fly for, oh, twenty five years or so. It's been established she also has a low end of superspeed for quite some time as well. Her lasso has also shown to be plot-nuke against zombies in the past (and yes, I'll be the first to say it was the power of PLOT).

You're right about her ability to wipe them early, but you underestimate her staying power.

Ah, I dont read dc comics, last I remembered was her invisible jet that let her fly. :p

kpenguin
2011-11-07, 05:30 PM
I have my doubts that zombie teeth would be able to penetrate Wonder Woman, or most super tough superhumans for that matter. Human mouths just... aren't that strong.

I mean, Luke Cage for instance requires special equipment to have surgery on him. No nonsuperpowered zombie is going to get through his skin.

Traab
2011-11-07, 05:33 PM
I have my doubts that zombie teeth would be able to penetrate Wonder Woman, or most super tough superhumans for that matter. Human mouths just... aren't that strong.

I mean, Luke Cage for instance requires special equipment to have surgery on him. No nonsuperpowered zombie is going to get through his skin.

Hmm, forgot about power man. I wonder though, he would get tired eventually, would it be possible, or are zombies even capable of, smothering him under sheer weight? He is another guy who would kick zombie ass to start, but he has no method of escape beyond "run" And while I agree, zombie teeth wouldnt break the skin, they could drag him down eventually just through sheer numbers and exhaustion. And his eyes arent bullet proof are they?

Zevox
2011-11-07, 05:40 PM
How DC Comics heroes would deal with a zombie apocalypse is explored in Blackest Night. Answer: the zombies lost.
And those were superpowered zombies at that - possessing both the powers of the individuals the rings attached themselves to and (though rarely used outside of for flying and space travel) Green Lantern-esque powers from their rings, plus far more regenerative power than zombies normally have. Oh, and actual intelligence.

Basically, the answer is that standard-issue zombies are no challenge to superheroes worthy of the term. They're slow and easily destroyed by superhero standards. You need to make them much more powerful, as Blackest Night did, in order to make them a threat. Or maybe put them up against nothing but powerless-but-skilled characters like Green Arrow and Batman.

Zevox

Mindfreak
2011-11-07, 05:49 PM
I'm not familiar with zomibes, what are these creatures?:smallconfused::smalltongue:

Anyways, I think the superheroes are doomed.
All it takes is for a high powered one to be bitten and they're all screwed.

Zevox
2011-11-07, 05:54 PM
I'm not familiar with zomibes, what are these creatures?:smallconfused::smalltongue:

Anyways, I think the superheroes are doomed.
All it takes is for a high powered one to be bitten and they're all screwed.
Since when do zombies function like werewolves? :smallconfused:

(Also, see the comments others made above about the difficult of piercing many superheroes' skin.)

Zevox

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-07, 06:26 PM
Hmm, forgot about power man. I wonder though, he would get tired eventually, would it be possible, or are zombies even capable of, smothering him under sheer weight? He is another guy who would kick zombie ass to start, but he has no method of escape beyond "run" And while I agree, zombie teeth wouldnt break the skin, they could drag him down eventually just through sheer numbers and exhaustion. And his eyes arent bullet proof are they?

Closes his eyes and he's got them covered with skin yes?

Also Luke Cage has super strength (25 ton range officially) and durability in addition to impenetrable skin so he isn't going to be swarmed by human zombies. So he's going to be doing more then his per capita share and he's one of the heroes with the fewest advantages against zombies since he lacks offensive powers or big gun strength levels.

On the topic on not breaking skin, this goes for a lot of heroes. While for example the X-men might have to institute everyone wears the full body training outfits plus a hood like Scott's.... those outfits are all unstable molecules and therefore bulletproof. So human bites are not happening. Most superhero outfits are generally mentioned as being armored in some way, even a vanilla hero human like Bucky is well armored against unarmed mindless infantry. Never mind the number of metahumans simply tough enough to wade naked through zombies all day like the Hulk and Ben Grimm.

When normal zombies cannot even plausibly challenge normal military, even S.H.I.E.L.D Agents levels are verging on excessive force.

Kinslayer
2011-11-07, 06:34 PM
Since when do zombies function like werewolves? :smallconfused:


Since zombies = (super)rabies victims became the most popular explaination. :smallannoyed:

♪♫Oh give me a horror
Where the zombies groan
Where the witch and the warlock play
Where seldom is heard a scientific word
And the dragons are sleepy all day

Those, those were the days
When the necromancer gave you a raise
When the vampires drank blood
And burned in the sun
And werewolves howled for the moon

Oh give me a hand,
Not rotten or bland,
Drawing life from the burning dream
Where you hide alone
From the ravening, dead, horde
Of the loved from your days

Those, those were the days
When you chased the monster with flames
When magic was spurned
And spirits returned
To devour the living al-ways ♫♪

And the tune. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArgMK2kAjzw)

Axolotl
2011-11-07, 06:43 PM
Since when do zombies function like werewolves? :smallconfused:Where did he say they act like werewolves?

Aotrs Commander
2011-11-07, 06:44 PM
It occurs to me that one - and only one - marginally positive point of Jubilee being turned into a vampire is that I suppose it makes her rather immune to zombification...

Though not being able to explode them on a molecular level with paffs is a relatively poor trade-off. Damn you Marvel.

Movie zombies are really only a threat because a) slasher movie people achive new levels of criminally stupid b) everyone is lucky if they are metaphorically playing E5 and not E1, let alone regular D&D. (A 20th level party of adventures pretty much are superheroes level of power.)

It's a matter of relative verses absolute threat. Movie zombies are dangerous because they're fighting against mostly poor, unskilled combatants (and the ones that aren't tend to cleave through them like cheese until they get unlucky). Superheroes are generally way outside their weight class (the comparison to military is a good one - most superheroes breeze through (utterly and totally ineptly deployed, unsupported, against all standards of real military tactics) tanks, let alone soldiers with guns - and guns are darn sight more dangerous than zombies.

Really, only superpowered zombies stand a chance - but of course by that point, you're more or less arguing superhero verses superhero again.

Traab
2011-11-07, 06:54 PM
Nah, movie zombies hit danger levels because it goes from patient zero to world wide outbreak in less time than it takes to heat up a burrito. They also generally skip the how it started explanation, its just that, suddenly, ZOMBIES! is how its presented. At best you might see the opening minutes before hell breaks loose a radio program mentioning some odd events showing the situation is still at class 1-2 levels, but then BOOM! suddenly the zombies multiply by a factor of 100 and everyone but the half dozen protagonists are undead.

Kinslayer
2011-11-07, 06:59 PM
Where did he say they act like werewolves?

Zombies (zombism?) didn't always spread from a single bite.

kpenguin
2011-11-07, 07:04 PM
It occurs to me that one - and only one - marginally positive point of Jubilee being turned into a vampire is that I suppose it makes her rather immune to zombification...

Though not being able to explode them on a molecular level with paffs is a relatively poor trade-off. Damn you Marvel.

Movie zombies are really only a threat because a) slasher movie people achive new levels of criminally stupid b) everyone is lucky if they are metaphorically playing E5 and not E1, let alone regular D&D. (A 20th level party of adventures pretty much are superheroes level of power.)

It's a matter of relative verses absolute threat. Movie zombies are dangerous because they're fighting against mostly poor, unskilled combatants (and the ones that aren't tend to cleave through them like cheese until they get unlucky). Superheroes are generally way outside their weight class (the comparison to military is a good one - most superheroes breeze through (utterly and totally ineptly deployed, unsupported, against all standards of real military tactics) tanks, let alone soldiers with guns - and guns are darn sight more dangerous than zombies.

Really, only superpowered zombies stand a chance - but of course by that point, you're more or less arguing superhero verses superhero again.

Yeah, more or less this. I don't see the threat of normal zombies taking up much more than a threat-of-the-month in a comic book.

...wait.


It occurs to me that one - and only one - marginally positive point of Jubilee being turned into a vampire is that I suppose it makes her rather immune to zombification...


Jubilee being turned into a vampire


Jubilee vampire



Jubilee vampire

What.

Axolotl
2011-11-07, 07:08 PM
Zombies (zombism?) didn't always spread from a single bite.It does in the Romero films, and when people talk about zombies they almost always mean the Romero ones. Or sometimes more recently 28 Days Later ones but they spread by bites as well.

chiasaur11
2011-11-07, 07:10 PM
Well, everyone seems to agree on the stomp, but given the X-Men mention, I figure a specific example is warranted.

X-Men get told there's zed? Well, that's a job for the Extinction Team. They live up to the name.

Let's go in a rough least to most devastating in the scenario order.

Namor. Incredibly tough and strong, superspeed, flight. Arrogant, though, and no built in range capability. If he was alone, Zed might have a shot. Might.

Then Magik. Teleporter, rules a hell dimension, magic powers.

Next up? Emma Frost. Telepathy isn't any good here. Diamond skin is. Zed can't do anything, and she can get all punchy.

Then Storm. Flight, lightning, tornadoes. Potent crowd control.

Scott Summers. He has death ray eyes, and no reason to hold back. Instant vaporization of huge swarms would be a bit of an edge.

Hope's there too. Raised in a post apocalyptic future, can mimic any mutant ability in range. Considering the crowd she's with, that'll be handy.

The Danger Room given physical form, she's going to be fun. Robot, so she's immune to anything zombies have. Hard light projections and control of machines would be useful.

Magneto. That Magneto. Shielded, flying, and he can turn any shrapnel into the last scene from Dead Alive.

And finally, the Juggernaut. No, the new one. Piotr Nikolaievitch Rasputin. Solid steel body on top of, well, being an unstoppable and nearly invincible living engine of destruction.

Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead.

Mutant Sheep
2011-11-07, 07:11 PM
Ah, I dont read dc comics, last I remembered was her invisible jet that let her fly. :p

Necessary link with Flash (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvFbwf5OgPg&feature=related) saying the same thing.:smalltongue:

Thinking zombies win, Romero zombies don't get past patient 14, and speedy zombies that still dont think much get the lame heroes, then get destroyed by Superman/Martian Manhunter killing them all.
Thinking zombies get Batman by using his parents/Alfred against him, then Batman is a zombie. Cue Batman turning everybody into a zombie within 5 hours of his zombification. :smallwink:

Aotrs Commander
2011-11-07, 07:12 PM
Yeah, more or less this. I don't see the threat of normal zombies taking up much more than a threat-of-the-month in a comic book.

...wait.

What.

Yes, not content with merely nicking her mutant powers, Marvel decided they needed to make her into a vampire.

As she is my favourite character ever, period, and I loathe vampires with the void-cold chill of a billion frozen stars, to say I am conflicted about this would be the biggest understatment of recorded history....

(Though her recent appearance in X-23 was so utterly brilliant (because Majorie Liu is nearly as big a Jubes fan as me...!), and so utterly Jubilee (both in character, and in art of the first time in a while) - best she's been for years - that it's nearly worth it.

...

Okay, it is worth it because even vampire!Jubilee is better than no Jubilee.

Jubilee with mutant powers and Wondra tech would have been better. Doubly so if she could get unvampired and got to keep the powers.)

Traab
2011-11-07, 07:12 PM
It does in the Romero films, and when people talk about zombies they almost always mean the Romero ones. Or sometimes more recently 28 Days Later ones but they spread by bites as well.

28 days later spreads by fluid exchange. A drop of blood from an infected body is enough if it gets in your eye. I dont think it was ever made clear if a romero zombie being blown up could aerosol the bits and make a cloud of zombie juice, or if it was bite only for some reason.

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-07, 07:13 PM
Nah, movie zombies hit danger levels because it goes from patient zero to world wide outbreak in less time than it takes to heat up a burrito. They also generally skip the how it started explanation, its just that, suddenly, ZOMBIES! is how its presented. At best you might see the opening minutes before hell breaks loose a radio program mentioning some odd events showing the situation is still at class 1-2 levels, but then BOOM! suddenly the zombies multiply by a factor of 100 and everyone but the half dozen protagonists are undead.

Because there's essentially no plausible explanation, excepting the original Romero style where its all dead bodies just start rising.

Traab
2011-11-07, 07:26 PM
Because there's essentially no plausible explanation, excepting the original Romero style where its all dead bodies just start rising.

Actually, the one movie set I liked the best was resident evil. The first movie made perfect sense, air based virus that infected a totally sealed lab. Bang, a couple hundred zombies. Now, id say if they had the speed of 28 days later and a clear exit path into downtown raccoon city, then you would easily have resident evil 2 level issues, where the entire city is somehow sealed off (That didnt make much sense, how the ^%$ did they seal off an entire city) and the infection has spread nearly 100%. Get a couple hundred hyper zombies rushing into an unprepared city and you have an unstoppable city cleansing zombie event.

Number 3 was a bit of a jump, but once again, assuming the containment failed in number 2. Umbrella kept it secret so they wouldnt get in trouble, so when the entire effing CITY of 28 days zombies busts out, they can spread pretty damn fast. By the time the government is actually made aware of the outbreak, its too late for anything less than a HUGE casualty rate since its spread in all directions and has crossed several state lines. By the time they mobilize the national guard, they effects have spread even further and further, until you get exactly what happened in 3. Caravans of survivors living off the "land" trying to survive by never stopping moving, since the zombies apparently are really good at swarming you and can track you somehow.

But all that depends on 28 days zombies, not romero shamblers.

Zevox
2011-11-07, 07:32 PM
Since zombies = (super)rabies victims became the most popular explaination. :smallannoyed:
:smallconfused: And when the hells did that happen?


Where did he say they act like werewolves?
The implication of his post was that being a zombie is some kind of disease that is spread via bites. That is not how I have ever heard of it, and is more or less taking a trait of werewolves (lycanthropy, the disease that afflicts them, being transferred via bites) and giving it to zombies. Hence they "function" (not act) "like werewolves."

Zevox

Venom3053000
2011-11-07, 07:35 PM
what weird about resident evil is that virus infects everything insects birds but people still manage to not be bitten

Axolotl
2011-11-07, 07:45 PM
The implication of his post was that being a zombie is some kind of disease that is spread via bites. That is not how I have ever heard of it, and is more or less taking a trait of werewolves (lycanthropy, the disease that afflicts them, being transferred via bites) and giving it to zombies. Hence they "function" (not act) "like werewolves."Zombies spreading by bites is the way it's worked ever since Romero, in practically all zombies films (and books and TV shows and comics) since at least the 70's. Really it'd be easier to count the number of zombies that don't spread that way than the ammount that do.

I have to agree with the people in the thread saying that a Zombie Apocalypse isn't really a threat to superheroes (or at least not beyone what they're used to dealing with) except the really low-level ones. Maybe a vampire based apocalypse like I am Legend would be a threat but even then they'd have to be high power vampires.

Venom3053000
2011-11-07, 07:53 PM
Maybe a vampire based apocalypse like I am Legend would be a threat but even then they'd have to be high power vampires.

the x men beat up dracula once it was pretty funny mostly wolverine putting his claws in a cross and it not working because he doesn't believe and then kittys star of david works for her

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-07, 07:56 PM
Actually, the one movie set I liked the best was resident evil. The first movie made perfect sense, air based virus that infected a totally sealed lab. Bang, a couple hundred zombies. Now, id say if they had the speed of 28 days later and a clear exit path into downtown raccoon city, then you would easily have resident evil 2 level issues, where the entire city is somehow sealed off (That didnt make much sense, how the ^%$ did they seal off an entire city) and the infection has spread nearly 100%. Get a couple hundred hyper zombies rushing into an unprepared city and you have an unstoppable city cleansing zombie event.

Number 3 was a bit of a jump, but once again, assuming the containment failed in number 2. Umbrella kept it secret so they wouldnt get in trouble, so when the entire effing CITY of 28 days zombies busts out, they can spread pretty damn fast. By the time the government is actually made aware of the outbreak, its too late for anything less than a HUGE casualty rate since its spread in all directions and has crossed several state lines. By the time they mobilize the national guard, they effects have spread even further and further, until you get exactly what happened in 3. Caravans of survivors living off the "land" trying to survive by never stopping moving, since the zombies apparently are really good at swarming you and can track you somehow.

But all that depends on 28 days zombies, not romero shamblers.

Nope, still not plausible.

You see there's a problem, namely that zombies are not credible threats against an actual response.

They are unarmed, unarmored, brainless, foot infantry. This means that say an Abrams tank's ability to kill them is not limited by its ammo, but by how long it can operate since it can turn zombies into squishy paste by simply running them over. A .50cal machine gun or a shotgun slug doesn't need head shots, it will render limbs into useless mush. Explosives are much the same. That these may be less effective against a zombie still misses just how ridiculously effective modern weapons actually are, if a frag grenades shrapnel takes out only 5 zombies versus 10 humans it still only take one soldier to throw it. Heck even small arms will put up a great showing when one considers that zombies don't take cover, the only reason soldiers survive gun fights.

Zombies are not a threat.

Romero is only loosely plausible because its everywhere at once. Even he was pretty explicit that the zombies wouldn't be a problem if not for the allegorical epic stupidity of the humans. Even an airborne virus (as opposed to the what normal fluid transfer) doesn't impress me unless you are overclocking it to levels where even being around zombies equals infection.

Traab
2011-11-07, 08:04 PM
Nope, still not plausible.

You see there's a problem, namely that zombies are not credible threats against an actual response.

They are unarmed, unarmored, brainless, foot infantry. This means that say an Abrams tank's ability to kill them is not limited by its ammo, but by how long it can operate since it can turn zombies into squishy paste by simply running them over. A .50cal machine gun or a shotgun slug doesn't need head shots, it will render limbs into useless mush. Explosives are much the same. That these may be less effective against a zombie still misses just how ridiculously effective modern weapons actually are, if a frag grenades shrapnel takes out only 5 zombies versus 10 humans it still only take one soldier to throw it. Heck even small arms will put up a great showing when one considers that zombies don't take cover, the only reason soldiers survive gun fights.

Zombies are not a threat.

Romero is only loosely plausible because its everywhere at once. Even he was pretty explicit that the zombies wouldn't be a problem if not for the allegorical epic stupidity of the humans. Even an airborne virus (as opposed to the what normal fluid transfer) doesn't impress me unless you are overclocking it to levels where even being around zombies equals infection.

Except that it is at least somewhat plausible. The third movie was the biggest stretch, even for 28 days zombies, but the combination of the speed of infection, the distance covered by a solid hundred thousand zombies, or whatever the population of raccoon city was, and the total secrecy the umbrella corp kept it under, it would be possible for the zombies to spread out country wide. Yeah in the end they would lose, but id bet most of america would be decimated before the military could get mobilized, arranged, and properly prepared to wipe them out.

But even ignoring 3, number 2 is possible. There is no outside help because umbrella has put up a total media blackout, no phones, no computers, no smoke signals, nothing. They were clearly more interested in containment than eradication, so you have a city full of panicky civillians being swarmed by hundreds of zombies from out of nowhere, and no real backup to work with. It becomes less likely with shamblers, but still not impossible, because, no matter how much of a rambo you like to think you are, seeing a couple hundred zombies start chomping on the neighbors and heading for you with no warning is going to scare you.

Devonix
2011-11-07, 08:19 PM
Hey now Aquaman isnt just a threat to Zombies because of the whole water thing too. Remember he's a Superstrong Telepath with control over a vast magicaly potent nation.

Zevox
2011-11-07, 08:25 PM
Zombies spreading by bites is the way it's worked ever since Romero, in practically all zombies films (and books and TV shows and comics) since at least the 70's. Really it'd be easier to count the number of zombies that don't spread that way than the ammount that do.
That's... sad. Makes Zombies seem even more boring to me somehow, and I didn't think that was possible.

See, I don't watch zombie movies, or read zombie books, etc, so I'm just familiar with the traditional version of them as reanimated corpses - ala D&D, for example. To hear that movies made them into some plague by duplicating lycanthropy with them is rather sad.

Zevox

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-07, 08:33 PM
Except that it is at least somewhat plausible. The third movie was the biggest stretch, even for 28 days zombies, but the combination of the speed of infection, the distance covered by a solid hundred thousand zombies, or whatever the population of raccoon city was, and the total secrecy the umbrella corp kept it under, it would be possible for the zombies to spread out country wide. Yeah in the end they would lose, but id bet most of america would be decimated before the military could get mobilized, arranged, and properly prepared to wipe them out.

But even ignoring 3, number 2 is possible. There is no outside help because umbrella has put up a total media blackout, no phones, no computers, no smoke signals, nothing. They were clearly more interested in containment than eradication, so you have a city full of panicky civillians being swarmed by hundreds of zombies from out of nowhere, and no real backup to work with. It becomes less likely with shamblers, but still not impossible, because, no matter how much of a rambo you like to think you are, seeing a couple hundred zombies start chomping on the neighbors and heading for you with no warning is going to scare you.

Even a normal police force would do well with barricaded positions and/or riot squads. A zombie horde is not that different from a group of amped up emotional rioters. The tactics to deal with masses of infantry without firearms are literally ancient and very evident in a line of men with giant shields. While the numbers of zeds are still low even ordinary people will be safe enough in cars or locked rooms above the first few floors. Now is this a garuntee. I'll give you maybe not but its going to slow things down long enough for this next point.

There's no such thing as a media black out anymore if there ever was. Case in point would be our current medium for exchanging info. Even aside from the seemingly infinite avenues for information to escape electronically, cities are not static entities. They will have thousands if not millions of people entering and exiting them from them all the time. Actually isolating the city is itself a major military operation. Now in the scenarios favor that means you'd see possibly see zombie spreading out of the city limits depending on incubation times. But given that the goal is to prevent info from spreading, it doesn't help.

Axolotl
2011-11-07, 08:42 PM
That's... sad. Makes Zombies seem even more boring to me somehow, and I didn't think that was possible.

See, I don't watch zombie movies, or read zombie books, etc, so I'm just familiar with the traditional version of them as reanimated corpses - ala D&D, for example. To hear that movies made them into some plague by duplicating lycanthropy with them is rather sad.

ZevoxWhy is it sad? Zombies in DnD are bland and frankly redundant. They serves no purpose other than as low level monsters for players to crush, they aren't a real threat except in extreme numbers, they're a joke enemy.

The Romero zombie on the other hand has real horror behind it, because it's self perpetuating, and the fact that it can make you like itself is a far more horrifying concept than just another monster trying to kill you. It's why the Borg from Star Trek are such great villans, they won't simply kill you like other aliens they actually turn you into one of tem and then have you turn all your former friends into Borg as well. Being killed is one thing but being reduced to a mindless drone that can do nothing more than parody it's former existence while at the same time continueig to reduce yet more beings to that level is far worse. The sheer perversity of it makes it vastly more horrifying.

DnD zombies are just more things to kill, Romero zombies are real objects of horror.

Kinslayer
2011-11-07, 08:50 PM
DnD zombies are just more things to kill, Romero zombies are real objects of horror.

I'm pretty sure D&D was just an example of non-virus zombies.

Necromantic zombies are more interesting than virus zombies, anyway. Because Virus Zombies are just people with rabies that... failed to get the Fatal part down right. They're about as scary as a rabid dog. (Which is honestly pretty scary but not HORROR worthy like a good flesh-consuming dark-magic zombie.)

Starwulf
2011-11-07, 08:59 PM
Even a normal police force would do well with barricaded positions and/or riot squads. A zombie horde is not that different from a group of amped up emotional rioters. The tactics to deal with masses of infantry without firearms are literally ancient and very evident in a line of men with giant shields. While the numbers of zeds are still low even ordinary people will be safe enough in cars or locked rooms above the first few floors. Now is this a garuntee. I'll give you maybe not but its going to slow things down long enough for this next point.

There's no such thing as a media black out anymore if there ever was. Case in point would be our current medium for exchanging info. Even aside from the seemingly infinite avenues for information to escape electronically, cities are not static entities. They will have thousands if not millions of people entering and exiting them from them all the time. Actually isolating the city is itself a major military operation. Now in the scenarios favor that means you'd see possibly see zombie spreading out of the city limits depending on incubation times. But given that the goal is to prevent info from spreading, it doesn't help.

To your first point, I think you are vastly under-estimating the overwhelming fear response that seeing the walking dead is going to invoke in ANYONE, including, but not limited to, your average civilian, the police, and yes, even the military. Not to mention the emotional trauma if one of those walking dead happens to be someone you know and love. Fear paralyzes, and induces panic once the paralysis wear off, causing us mere humans to do entirely stupid things and not think clearly whatsoever. Even in this day and age, with the entire overloading of Zombie stuff, if the dead DID get up and start hunting us fleshies, there would be MORE then enough people who would succumb, and do so quickly, to them, because of how traumatic it is. I can't say I'd fare to well if I saw my mom or dad, or my wife, or kids turned into zombies, coming to gnaw on me. I'd probably stand still, refusing to believe it, until I was zombie food. And I LOVE zombie stuff, there probably isn't a zombie movie out there that I haven't watched, even the crappy below B-rated ones that are mind-bendingly stupid.

To the second part: Resident Evil universe is a bit different from ours, most noticeably in the enormous amount of power one company holds, and the simple fact that Raccoon city practically belongs to Umbrella, at least in the shadows. While I can't say this would be possible in the real world, in RE, it wasn't to hard for them to establish a massive perimeter around the city, and then contain all electronic signals from going anywhere. They proved that when they let the Doctor know that they had been aware of his tampering in their system the entire time. It's not inconceivable that they managed to establish a magnetic field around the entire city that was capable of disrupting normal communications, while keeping their own shielded.

Axolotl
2011-11-07, 09:07 PM
I'm pretty sure D&D was just an example of non-virus zombies. Which isn't threatening. It's a moving corpse and while the imagery of that is certainly horrifying it can't pose a plausible threat to an healthy adult, they're slow unable to compotently use weapons and realistically it's a decomposing sorpse, it can't overpower you. Unless it's truly overwhelming odds then they aren't a real threat. Infectious zombies on the other hand mean that any mistake you make, one bite, one scratch and in extreme cases one spec of blood or spit and you lose, not only will you die but you become what killed you.


Necromantic zombies are more interesting than virus zombies, anyway. Because Virus Zombies are just people with rabies that... failed to get the Fatal part down right. They're about as scary as a rabid dog. (Which is honestly pretty scary but not HORROR worthy like a good flesh-consuming dark-magic zombie.)But the DnD zombie is just an automata, a particularly profane and disgusting automata but at the end of the day just a shell. An infectious one is a mindless nbeing that will drag you down to it's level, which is far worse. In adition a reanimated magical zombie has some intelligence behind it in the form of the reanimator, it's just a tool used for ultimately human purposes. A "viral" zombie doesn't have that, it simply replicates itself until all of humanity is reduced to a vapid paraody of itself. Once again the Romero zombie is simply far more perverse than a DnD one and that makes it more horrifying.

Tiki Snakes
2011-11-07, 09:07 PM
Why is it sad? Zombies in DnD are bland and frankly redundant. They serves no purpose other than as low level monsters for players to crush, they aren't a real threat except in extreme numbers, they're a joke enemy.

The Romero zombie on the other hand has real horror behind it, because it's self perpetuating, and the fact that it can make you like itself is a far more horrifying concept than just another monster trying to kill you. It's why the Borg from Star Trek are such great villans, they won't simply kill you like other aliens they actually turn you into one of tem and then have you turn all your former friends into Borg as well. Being killed is one thing but being reduced to a mindless drone that can do nothing more than parody it's former existence while at the same time continueig to reduce yet more beings to that level is far worse. The sheer perversity of it makes it vastly more horrifying.

DnD zombies are just more things to kill, Romero zombies are real objects of horror.

The problem, as I see it can be illustrated by the following;



Why is it sad? Werewolves in DnD are bland and frankly redundant. They serves no purpose other than as low level monsters for players to crush, they aren't a real threat except in extreme numbers, they're a joke enemy.

The Landis Werewolf on the other hand has real horror behind it, because it's self perpetuating, and the fact that it can make you like itself is a far more horrifying concept than just another monster trying to kill you. It's why the Flood from Halo are such great villans, they won't simply kill you like other aliens they actually turn you into one of them and then have you turn all your former friends into Flood as well. Being killed is one thing but being reduced to a mindless drone that can do nothing more than parody it's former existence while at the same time continueing to reduce yet more beings to that level is far worse. The sheer perversity of it makes it vastly more horrifying.

DnD Werewolves are just more things to kill, Landis Werewolves are real objects of horror.



Why is it sad? Vampires in DnD are bland and frankly redundant. They serves no purpose other than as mid level monsters for players to crush, they aren't a real threat except in extreme numbers, they're a joke enemy.

The Bram Stocker Vampire on the other hand has real horror behind it, because it's self perpetuating, and the fact that it can make you like itself is a far more horrifying concept than just another monster trying to kill you. It's why the Phalanx from X-Men are such great villans, they won't simply kill you like other aliens they actually turn you into one of them and then have you turn all your former friends into Phalanx as well. Being killed is one thing but being reduced to a mindless drone that can do nothing more than parody it's former existence while at the same time continueing to reduce yet more beings to that level is far worse. The sheer perversity of it makes it vastly more horrifying.

DnD Vampires are just more things to kill, Bram Stocker Vampires are real objects of horror.


Which is to say, the same critiscisms and comparisons can be laid at the door of many creatures, in fiction. All in all, the magical Zombie, re-animated to serve the needs of a terrible wizard or dark army is a lot more distinctive in this day and age, as the monster-that-makes-you-like-itself market is really very overcrowded.

That said, I don't altogether disagree with your central points.

Traab
2011-11-07, 09:22 PM
I'm pretty sure D&D was just an example of non-virus zombies.

Necromantic zombies are more interesting than virus zombies, anyway. Because Virus Zombies are just people with rabies that... failed to get the Fatal part down right. They're about as scary as a rabid dog. (Which is honestly pretty scary but not HORROR worthy like a good flesh-consuming dark-magic zombie.)

Uh, no, they arent rabid. They are dead, and yet they move. You can blow a basketball sized hole through their torso and they will continue to try to eat you. The fact that the slightest injury caused by a viral zombie will turn YOU into a zombie, just makes them even more terrifying. And even if a zombie isnt horrifying, zombIES are. A swarm of creatures that want nothing more than to rip tear bite and feed, some of them may even be wearing the face of someone you love. The fact that they are contagious and there is no cure is what makes them far scarier than some necromantic zombie that will at worst kill you.

Axolotl
2011-11-07, 09:22 PM
The problem, as I see it can be illustrated by the following;Which don't work because A) Vampires and Werewolves aren't redundant in the same way zombies are. B) They pose credible threats to the players both fluffwise and mechanics wise. Oh and C) Werewolves and Vampires in DnD do spread their afflictions. D) Vampirism and Lycanthropy dion't reduce you in the same way zombieism does, they can still think and reason and being a vampire has distinct advantages. Sure it's not all good (or even mostly good) but there's a reason why there's very little in the way of serious zombie romance novels.


Which is to say, the same critiscisms and comparisons can be laid at the door of many creatures, in fiction. All in all, the magical Zombie, re-animated to serve the needs of a terrible wizard or dark army is a lot more distinctive in this day and age, as the monster-that-makes-you-like-itself market is really very overcrowded. But it's overcrowded because it's powerful imagery, much moreso than a normal zombie (and don't get me wrong a walking corpse is already fairly powerful as an image). And with the zombie reanimated by dark lord/evil wizard/whatever it's the reanimator that's scary, that they have the will and the power to do something so profane and inhuman. The zombie itself in this case is merely an extension of the horror of the reanimator, in a vacuum it's just sort of pathetic.

Zevox
2011-11-07, 09:29 PM
DnD zombies are just more things to kill, Romero zombies are real objects of horror.
D&D was just an example of zombies that aren't done like some plague.

For the rest, we can start with the fact that I don't like horror, so making something "real objects of horror" is never going to endear it to me. Separate from that though, zombies as monsters, magically animated corpses, are fairly dull, yes (which is why I've never pursued any form of zombie media), but at least they make sense. They serve their purpose as a basic form of undead creature. Making zombies into a disease really doesn't make sense, since then they're not dead, just diseased people, which is completely the opposite of the original creature. Or if they are dead, then it still doesn't make any sense, as then the disease shouldn't affect them. Plus, as I indicated before, the whole "copying werewolves" thing just makes them seem even more boring to me.

Zevox

The Glyphstone
2011-11-07, 09:38 PM
Aren't werewolves just ripping off vampires, then? They both bite people and turn humans into creatures like them, after all, and the werewolf biting only outdates zombie biting by twenty-odd years anyways (1958 Night Of The Living Dead vs. 1941 The Wolf-Man). If you remove all the things that make them different, of course two monsters are going to look the same - zombies copy vampires more than they copy werewolves, since the transformation first requires the victim to sicken and die.

Kinslayer
2011-11-07, 09:59 PM
Uh, no, they arent rabid. They are dead, and yet they move. You can blow a basketball sized hole through their torso and they will continue to try to eat you.

99.9% of the "viral zombies" drop instantly to a headshot, or a few body shots, unless the movie is showing off the non-mook zombie that's managed to grow to 8'-something, somehow, and absorbs an inordinate amount of ammunition. Necromantic zombies have to be burned to a crisp, or hacked to pieces in the majority of cases to be fully put down.



The fact that the slightest injury caused by a viral zombie will turn YOU into a zombie,

See ; (mysteriously nonlethal) Rabies


And even if a zombie isnt horrifying, zombIES are. A swarm of creatures that want nothing more than to rip tear bite and feed, some of them may even be wearing the face of someone you love.

This is also true of the dark magic version.



The fact that they are contagious and there is no cure is what makes them far scarier than some necromantic zombie that will at worst kill you.

At worst, kill you. Slowly. And then you're a zombie, because noone lets a good corpse go to waste if they're raising zombies in the first place.

irenicObserver
2011-11-07, 10:51 PM
Guys, we're getting off track. I think superheroes would do really well, they'd be rather de-sensitized to the whole horror behind it.

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-07, 11:13 PM
To your first point, I think you are vastly under-estimating the overwhelming fear response that seeing the walking dead is going to invoke in ANYONE, including, but not limited to, your average civilian, the police, and yes, even the military. Not to mention the emotional trauma if one of those walking dead happens to be someone you know and love. Fear paralyzes, and induces panic once the paralysis wear off, causing us mere humans to do entirely stupid things and not think clearly whatsoever. Even in this day and age, with the entire overloading of Zombie stuff, if the dead DID get up and start hunting us fleshies, there would be MORE then enough people who would succumb, and do so quickly, to them, because of how traumatic it is. I can't say I'd fare to well if I saw my mom or dad, or my wife, or kids turned into zombies, coming to gnaw on me. I'd probably stand still, refusing to believe it, until I was zombie food. And I LOVE zombie stuff, there probably isn't a zombie movie out there that I haven't watched, even the crappy below B-rated ones that are mind-bendingly stupid.

Combat and violence are not scary? Guns are especially scary because they are loud, especially because you've been trained by media to expect much smaller bangs, and because they can kill you before you know what's going on. An intelligent enemy that could be hiding just out of sight, that's scary. An unarmed madman is not that scary by comparison, because in the end there's only so much it can do to kill you.

And it doesn't even reach levels of "oh no waifu wants to eat me" because the part zombie movies always skip is reaching the seemingly endless horde level. Any sort of patient zero scenario, even upping to a few hundred initial zeds isn't much in a city and ignores the difficulty the zombies would face in ever reaching numbers that outnumber humans. Bites are hard to deliever. A zed doesn't walk into a supermarket and turn everyone, and that assuming zed doesn't stop for a real meal (that is why they bite right?) on the first person he gets and never makes two zeds. The chance of an initial police response involving someone they are more attached to the that last five junkies and drunks they took down, non-existant.


To the second part: Resident Evil universe is a bit different from ours, most noticeably in the enormous amount of power one company holds, and the simple fact that Raccoon city practically belongs to Umbrella, at least in the shadows. While I can't say this would be possible in the real world, in RE, it wasn't to hard for them to establish a massive perimeter around the city, and then contain all electronic signals from going anywhere. They proved that when they let the Doctor know that they had been aware of his tampering in their system the entire time. It's not inconceivable that they managed to establish a magnetic field around the entire city that was capable of disrupting normal communications, while keeping their own shielded.

Cutting off a city doesn't help against why suddenly Raccoon dropped off the map. You get into why all the restaurant chains aren't reporting sales up the chain, why every employee in every office isn't answering their client's calls or emails, why everybody going on a businiess trip doesn't show up at the other end. The truck drivers having to take major detours because the interstate is blocked or the ripple effect across the country closing an airport might have. With enough people and some crazy is going to have a satellite phone that points to y'know up above anything. To say nothing of all the extended families unable to reach residents within the cordon. And of course all the official agencies and media that then have to not take interest. Can you cut-off a city from the outside, well I suppose. Can you disappear a city... absolutely not.

And if they can hold a cordon against a city and more of thinking humans over a broad area then they should be able to hold it against brainless zombies for all the reasons zombies can't survive an actual confrontation.

Starwulf
2011-11-07, 11:43 PM
Combat and violence are not scary? Guns are especially scary because they are loud, especially because you've been trained by media to expect much smaller bangs, and because they can kill you before you know what's going on. An intelligent enemy that could be hiding just out of sight, that's scary. An unarmed madman is not that scary by comparison, because in the end there's only so much it can do to kill you.

And it doesn't even reach levels of "oh no waifu wants to eat me" because the part zombie movies always skip is reaching the seemingly endless horde level. Any sort of patient zero scenario, even upping to a few hundred initial zeds isn't much in a city and ignores the difficulty the zombies would face in ever reaching numbers that outnumber humans. Bites are hard to deliever. A zed doesn't walk into a supermarket and turn everyone, and that assuming zed doesn't stop for a real meal (that is why they bite right?) on the first person he gets and never makes two zeds. The chance of an initial police response involving someone they are more attached to the that last five junkies and drunks they took down, non-existant.



Cutting off a city doesn't help against why suddenly Raccoon dropped off the map. You get into why all the restaurant chains aren't reporting sales up the chain, why every employee in every office isn't answering their client's calls or emails, why everybody going on a businiess trip doesn't show up at the other end. The truck drivers having to take major detours because the interstate is blocked or the ripple effect across the country closing an airport might have. With enough people and some crazy is going to have a satellite phone that points to y'know up above anything. To say nothing of all the extended families unable to reach residents within the cordon. And of course all the official agencies and media that then have to not take interest. Can you cut-off a city from the outside, well I suppose. Can you disappear a city... absolutely not.

And if they can hold a cordon against a city and more of thinking humans over a broad area then they should be able to hold it against brainless zombies for all the reasons zombies can't survive an actual confrontation.

I'll still disagree on the second part, and here is why: If the city in question is home to a major corporation that is housing a Nuclear Facility there, that is all they would need to cause an entire black-out and give plausible explanation as to why everything is being diverted away from the town. After that, they concoct some bull**** story about how the radiation leak is causing some weird interferences with communication devices, and voila: Black-out. Not to mention, if the corporation is as large as Umbrella, and as powerful, I can guarantee you they have someone who can easily hack into any nearby Satellites, and prevent anyone from a designated area(hint: Inside and right around the city) from placing a call, coupled with my initial idea of a magnetic field(Or hell, just disabling all communication lines leading into/out of the city), and it's not only possible, it's fairly easy. You seem to not realize how powerful the Umbrella Corporation is portrayed in the Resident Evils(it's significantly more powerful then in the games, where the entire destruction of the world didn't particularly happen), and the massive amount of resources they have available to them to completely cordon off a city and impose a black-out.

The first one...I"ll concede that. Without several hundred thousand zeds appearing all at once, a massive outbreak occurring is slim to none, as long as appropriate response is utilized immediately. Personally, I'm more of a mind that our government officials wouldn't believe a word about a zombie outbreak(Hell, the majority of politicians holding any significant office in the U.S. has an average age of what..55? 60? That is fairly outside the sphere of the zombie craze age-range), at least not at first. Even with fairly clear videos depicting zombie attacks, I can easily see them pawning it off as junkies hopped up on drugs doing it, or something ridiculous like that. And given that, if they delayed a response by even 48 hours, things might be just out of hand enough(assuming it's non-shambler zombies) as to where nothing short of a dedicated, and well-coordinated military strike with the full might of the U.S. army is going to contain it, and you're still looking at a massive loss of life.

But I digress, if only a few zeds, yeah, outbreak is dead in it's tracks. Even if it happened in a small, rural town in the middle of nowhere, it probably wouldn't even spread through the entire town before it was stopped.

Starwulf
2011-11-07, 11:46 PM
Combat and violence are not scary? Guns are especially scary because they are loud, especially because you've been trained by media to expect much smaller bangs, and because they can kill you before you know what's going on. An intelligent enemy that could be hiding just out of sight, that's scary. An unarmed madman is not that scary by comparison, because in the end there's only so much it can do to kill you.

And it doesn't even reach levels of "oh no waifu wants to eat me" because the part zombie movies always skip is reaching the seemingly endless horde level. Any sort of patient zero scenario, even upping to a few hundred initial zeds isn't much in a city and ignores the difficulty the zombies would face in ever reaching numbers that outnumber humans. Bites are hard to deliever. A zed doesn't walk into a supermarket and turn everyone, and that assuming zed doesn't stop for a real meal (that is why they bite right?) on the first person he gets and never makes two zeds. The chance of an initial police response involving someone they are more attached to the that last five junkies and drunks they took down, non-existant.



Cutting off a city doesn't help against why suddenly Raccoon dropped off the map. You get into why all the restaurant chains aren't reporting sales up the chain, why every employee in every office isn't answering their client's calls or emails, why everybody going on a businiess trip doesn't show up at the other end. The truck drivers having to take major detours because the interstate is blocked or the ripple effect across the country closing an airport might have. With enough people and some crazy is going to have a satellite phone that points to y'know up above anything. To say nothing of all the extended families unable to reach residents within the cordon. And of course all the official agencies and media that then have to not take interest. Can you cut-off a city from the outside, well I suppose. Can you disappear a city... absolutely not.

And if they can hold a cordon against a city and more of thinking humans over a broad area then they should be able to hold it against brainless zombies for all the reasons zombies can't survive an actual confrontation.

I'll still disagree on the second part, and here is why: If the city in question is home to a major corporation that is housing a Nuclear Facility there, that is all they would need to cause an entire black-out and give plausible explanation as to why everything is being diverted away from the town. After that, they concoct some bull**** story about how the radiation leak is causing some weird interferences with communication devices, and voila: Black-out. Not to mention, if the corporation is as large as Umbrella, and as powerful, I can guarantee you they have someone who can easily hack into any nearby Satellites, and prevent anyone from a designated area(hint: Inside and right around the city) from placing a call, coupled with my initial idea of a magnetic field(Or hell, just disabling all communication lines leading into/out of the city), and it's not only possible, it's fairly easy. You seem to not realize how powerful the Umbrella Corporation is portrayed in the Resident Evil Movies(it's significantly more powerful then in the games, where the entire destruction of the world didn't particularly happen), and the massive amount of resources they have available to them to completely cordon off a city and impose a black-out.

The first one...I"ll concede that. Without several hundred thousand zeds appearing all at once, a massive outbreak occurring is slim to none, as long as appropriate response is utilized immediately. Personally, I'm more of a mind that our government officials wouldn't believe a word about a zombie outbreak(Hell, the majority of politicians holding any significant office in the U.S. has an average age of what..55? 60? That is fairly outside the sphere of the zombie craze age-range), at least not at first. Even with fairly clear videos depicting zombie attacks, I can easily see them pawning it off as junkies hopped up on drugs doing it, or something ridiculous like that. And given that, if they delayed a response by even 48 hours, things might be just out of hand enough(assuming it's non-shambler zombies) as to where nothing short of a dedicated, and well-coordinated military strike with the full might of the U.S. army is going to contain it, and you're still looking at a massive loss of life.

But I digress, if only a few zeds, yeah, outbreak is dead in it's tracks. Even if it happened in a small, rural town in the middle of nowhere, it probably wouldn't even spread through the entire town before it was stopped.

edit: Btw, just FYI, the Nuclear facility going critical thing, is exactly what Umbrella used in order to explain Raccoon city going off the map. Just wanted to point out that I didn't actually think of the idea, it's the actual one used in RE2, and it's entirely plausible to me.

Aotrs Commander
2011-11-08, 12:35 PM
If you ask my opinion - and you didn't but since we're discussing Undead, you're going to get it anyway - vampires, werewolves and zombies are all rather tired and over-exposed. The former are over-romantised leeches, the infector-zombies are charitiably hyper-up macro-viruses and werewolves are just kinda dull (and as often as not, aren't even considered Undead in the first place).

Hell, make-you-like-us monsters, period, are over-exposed and rather bland... (The Borg, for me, were less threatening for their assimilation and more for their adaption to technology.)

None of the aforementioned are really serious threats to superheroes unless they have powers equivilent to superheroes themselves or enmasse and in decending order of threat. (Given that canonically, say, the X-Men have fought huge numbers of vampires recently and wiped the floor with them mostly, out numbered dozens to one.)

Liches, on the other hand, are freaking awesome, and inherently just better. A movie about Liches would be far more entertaining - indeed anything with Liches is automatically awesome. (See: OotS.)

And your "average" Lich is certainly capable of going toe-to-toebone with a low-to-mid-level superhero, and the upper echelons (such as myself) really, really are!

Traab
2011-11-08, 01:07 PM
I vote we try to come up with a decent list of superheroes who WOULDNT be able to curb stomp an army of 28 days later style zombies like chumps.

Static Shock - His powers are not directly useful against zombies. He CAN take control of bladed metal weapons and use them to decapitate, but im not certain how fine tuned his control is. Plus, he tends to run out of energy quickly compared to many heroes.

Rogue - Im talking xmen movies rogue. She cant fly, she isnt super strong, all she can do is drain energy out of people and steal mutant powers for awhile. I dont even want to think about how her ability would work on zombies, but I doubt its very well, and even if it was, I doubt it would be effective against a swarm.

Pyro - Now, yes, he can burn zombies down. The problem is, it takes TIME to burn them till their brains die. I think he could immolate an army of zombies, but he would be dragged under by the burning horde before they keeled over afterwards.

Captain America - He really doesnt have that much he can use against zombies, power wise. He is at a slightly superhuman level of strength right? He cant bench press double decker buses, but he could throw zombies around quite well. His shield I dont think it would be a very effective weapon to decapitate zombies with, especially not against a horde. I dont care how good your martial arts skills are, when the bad guys arent coming at you single file like in movies, you can get dragged down fast. Now, if his costume is bite proof that could protect him for awhile from incidental hits, but eventually, he would get dragged down and some zombie will bite his freaking nose off.

Ghost Rider - Penance stare is useless, his chain can only take down so many zombies at a time, and remember, these are fast zombies, so its not like he has time to take them out one or two at a time. Its a bit of a stand off really. Since I doubt they could turn him into a zombie if they bit him in skull mode, and he does have his hellfire bike to make a getaway, I give him a handicap when fighting swarms of zombies.

Xavier - What the hell can he do to a zombie? I dont think he is even telekinetic. Grats on being the most powerful psychic ever charles. Too bad these guys dont have brains worth reading.

H Birchgrove
2011-11-08, 01:16 PM
In the end the heroes would find a way to make use of liches as raw material for super phosphate. :smalltongue: :smallwink:

But I agree we see too little of liches in fiction. A pity no one told Ray Harryhausen about intelligent living skeletons.

Zevox
2011-11-08, 01:38 PM
Xavier - What the hell can he do to a zombie? I dont think he is even telekinetic.
Correct, Xavier's powers are strictly telepathic, not telekinetic. He would be completely useless against Zombies.

Others that wouldn't fare well:

Archery-based heroes (Green Arrow, Speedy/Red Arrow, Artemis, Hawkeye, etc): Standard arrows aren't going to do much, and there's no way they have enough exploding and otherwise effective trick arrows to handle a horde. Eventually they'll get overwhelmed by sheer numbers.

Black Canary - I doubt her screams would have any effect on mindless corpses, which basically leaves her kung-fu fighting an army of the undead. Yeah, that's not gonna work very well.

Spider Man: Would put up a better fight than some others, what with his super strength, agility, ability to cling to walls and ceilings, and webs; but I'd imagine those webs will be of limited use, and to my knowledge he doesn't have enough super strength or speed to really put much of a dent in a horde of zombies. He could probably escape with little trouble, but he'd need to get someone else to handle it.

Nightcrawler: Unless he can teleport those zombies over a volcano or something constantly without getting too tired or hurt in the process, he's got nothing on a horde of the undead.

Shadowcat: She can avoid getting hurt nice and easily, but there's really not much she can do to actually stop the zombies.

Zevox

Traab
2011-11-08, 02:08 PM
Pretty sure spiderman is in the category of "punch their heads off" levels of strength. But yeah, spider sense or not, he cant exactly expect to mix it up in hand to hand against a horde of sprinters and survive for long.

Green arrow could take them out with normal arrows, all he needs is a place the zombies cant get to and an escape route. But on ground level? yeah, he would take out a few then die.

Selrahc
2011-11-08, 02:22 PM
Spider Man: Would put up a better fight than some others, what with his super strength, agility, ability to cling to walls and ceilings, and webs; but I'd imagine those webs will be of limited use, and to my knowledge he doesn't have enough super strength or speed to really put much of a dent in a horde of zombies. He could probably escape with little trouble, but he'd need to get someone else to handle it.

Spidey is strong enough to throw around a bus. He can punch zombies into chunks.

Webbing would also be absolutely fantastic against zombies. It takes legitimate super strength to break free, and he can web up dozens of zombies in seconds.

And his superspeed has been enough to keep him from getting hit by the most skilled martial artists and gunmen. The zombies would need to get *very* lucky to hit him.


Ghost Rider - Penance stare is useless, his chain can only take down so many zombies at a time, and remember, these are fast zombies, so its not like he has time to take them out one or two at a time. Its a bit of a stand off really. Since I doubt they could turn him into a zombie if they bit him in skull mode, and he does have his hellfire bike to make a getaway, I give him a handicap when fighting swarms of zombies.

Ghost Rider has this gigantic flaming chain, and a bike which can drive on anything made from fire.

If he sees a horde of zombies, he is going to be riding flaming trails between and slicing them into bits with his chains.

As well, he possesses superhuman strength and toughness and would be immune to zombification. He actually seems like a fairly fantastic choice to fight zombies, Penance Stare or no.

Venom3053000
2011-11-08, 02:54 PM
all the powers of ghost rider right from the marvel wiki

warning it long

Dr. Strange also stated, that when Zarathos takes possession of the Ghost Rider, the Ghost Rider's powers are, for most intents and purposes, boundless and "God Like"

he possesses superhuman strength sufficient to lift up to 25 tons

The mystical energy that empowers Ghost Rider prevents his muscles from producing fatigue toxins during physical activities, granting him limitless superhuman stamina.

Johny Blaze is highly resistant to the point of being basically immune to all types of earthly physical damage as he has taken blows from beings such as an enraged World War Hulk with no sign of pain or discomfort, had his entire skull destroyed and regenerated instantly without any discomfort[3], and while the Ghost Rider is in control only divine weapons forged in heaven can cause discomfort or harm to the Ghost Rider. The Ghost Rider is capable of withstanding great impact forces, temperature and pressure extremes, powerful energy blasts, and falls from great heights without sustaining injury. As his bodily tissues have been transformed, leaving only a skeleton, most projectiles such as bullets simply pass through him or bounce off his bones. Ghost Rider's body is for all intents immune to physical injury, as he is evidently not able to feel pain and is able to survive with no apparent discomfort no matter how severe the injury (Unless a weapon forged from Heaven itself is used against him)

Despite his invulnerability to conventional forms of injury, objects such as weapons forged in heaven by the arch angel Zadkiel, can actually harm the Ghost Rider to a certain extent. However, if his being is damaged, the magical energies imbuing him allows the Ghost Rider or Johnny Blaze to instantly regenerate any and all damage done, even to the point of fully regenerating lost limbs in moments, and regenerating his skull after it was destroyed in seconds without any discomfort or any evident pain.




Ghost Rider possesses the ability to generate, control, and project mystical fire, or "hellfire" at will. Hellfire is an emphyreal and supernatural flame that burns the soul of a person and can be used to burn their physical body. He can utilize this fire in various ways, including projecting it from his eyes, hands, mouth, or even channel it from his body into his weapons like his shotgun, form walls of hellfire, and even create a motorcycle completely out of hellfire. He can also unleash the hellfire in omni-directional attacks that are incredibly powerful.

Ghost Rider wields a mystical chain that is capable of growing in length, cutting through almost anything, and transforming into other weapons. He can also spew and project chains from his mouth or chest at will.

Anteros
2011-11-08, 03:04 PM
So what happens if Banner gets bit? Zombie hulk? That could pose a problem for quite a few heroes.

kpenguin
2011-11-08, 03:10 PM
Xavier - What the hell can he do to a zombie? I dont think he is even telekinetic. Grats on being the most powerful psychic ever charles. Too bad these guys dont have brains worth reading.

I'd disagree here, if we're talking 28 Days Later style zombies, or perhaps even virus zombies in general. The Rage Virus is a brain effecting virus, not one which actually turns people into mindless undead. While they're definitely not like the minds of a normal human anymore, we're still looking at people who have brains that are controlling the body via nervous system, etc. They might not philosophically have minds anymore, but they still physically do.

In this case, Xavier is extremely useful because he can shut down their brains with a thought. In fact, with fine tuned telepathy, he can suppress emotions like, say, mindless aggression. Its quite possible Xavier can provide a cure by altering the minds of the zombies.


So what happens if Banner gets bit? Zombie hulk? That could pose a problem for quite a few heroes.

HULK FORTITUDE SHAKE OFF PUNY VIRUS. HULK IMMUNE SYSTEM STRONGEST THERE IS

Zevox
2011-11-08, 05:10 PM
Green arrow could take them out with normal arrows, all he needs is a place the zombies cant get to and an escape route.
What exactly are normal arrows going to do to zombies? They don't have the physical limitations of living beings, embedding an arrow in their flesh won't so much as slow them down. Heck, trying to pin their feet to the ground or arms to a tree or something will do little more than slow them down.


Spidey is strong enough to throw around a bus. He can punch zombies into chunks.
Seriously? That's... more than I've ever seen out of him.


Webbing would also be absolutely fantastic against zombies. It takes legitimate super strength to break free, and he can web up dozens of zombies in seconds.
Aren't zombies normally super strong though? Not on superhero levels perhaps, but definitely stronger than a human, and since they never get tired or anything they should always be able to force their way out of Spidey's webs.


And his superspeed has been enough to keep him from getting hit by the most skilled martial artists and gunmen.
Gunmen? Are you sure it's not his spider sense that was mainly involved in those? Because that's just getting silly - you need Superman or Flash levels of super speed to dodge a bullet, and Spider Man definitely is not that fast.

Zevox

Tiki Snakes
2011-11-08, 05:37 PM
An arrow in the brain does every bit as much as a bullet in the brain. Headshots are certainly not beyond the skill level of an archer like Green Arrow.

Zombie's are often stronger than normal. But they just as often can't force their way through a sheet of glass. Given that I believe we'd settled on Virus Zombies (Runners or Shamblers), that puts their maximum strength at relatively human levels and is purely determined by the starting strength of the individual. Add in decay to off-set the whole pushing past the danger limits angle, and you should break even at, on average, slightly above average at most, really. If not less.

And as far as Spidey's strength goes....
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/61245/1544526-spiderman_lifts_subway_car_super.jpg
He's pretty strong. (http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2011/07/31/drawing-crazy-patterns-spider-man-lifting-heavy-objects/)

Also basically everything Kpenguin just said. Xavier is actually a win-button against Virus Zombies and if Banner get's bit by a zombie, chances are he just hulks out reflexively and stays that way till his Hulked out physiology has finished crushing the virus. (Would likely end up a plot point, one of those 'No More Banner, only Hulk' twists).

Not that Zombie Hulk is going to be significantly more of a problem anyway. He's already the Strongest there is.

Selrahc
2011-11-08, 05:37 PM
Seriously? That's... more than I've ever seen out of him.


Spidey can deadlift 25 tons, and under stress can push himself far beyond that.

A single decker bus is only around 12 tons.


Not on superhero levels perhaps

Given that it takes a hero stronger than Spidey to get out of the webs, a zombie really won't be able to do it.



Gunmen? Are you sure it's not his spider sense that was mainly involved in those? Because that's just getting silly - you need Superman or Flash levels of super speed to dodge a bullet, and Spider Man definitely is not that fast.

I did actually mean to write spidersense there... but you don't need Flash or Superman speed levels to dodge bullets. Spidey is more than capable of doing it. He has on occasion, snatched bullets out of midair. With webbing, or with his bare hands. Regardless of spider sense, that needs some impressive reflexes.

kpenguin
2011-11-08, 05:40 PM
Note that if needed, Spidey can always shoot more webbing. If we're talking post-Other pre-BND Spidey, we're looking at a Spider-Man that can, with sufficient webbing, cocoon Iron Man.

Zevox
2011-11-08, 06:53 PM
An arrow in the brain does every bit as much as a bullet in the brain.
Which, against zombies, should be absolutely nothing.


I did actually mean to write spidersense there... but you don't need Flash or Superman speed levels to dodge bullets. Spidey is more than capable of doing it. He has on occasion, snatched bullets out of midair. With webbing, or with his bare hands. Regardless of spider sense, that needs some impressive reflexes.
Yeah, I would absolutely have to call BS on that. You most certainly do need Superman levels of speed to do that, as well as Superman levels of nigh-invulnerability. Less than that should result in completely failing to come anywhere close to the bullet in time, or at most having the bullet hit you in the hand and probably come out the other side.

If Spider Man isn't supposed to have Superman-level powers - and I'm pretty sure he isn't - he absolutely should not be dodging bullets on speed alone (spider sense giving him sufficient warning is another matter), much less catching them.

Zevox

Tiki Snakes
2011-11-08, 06:57 PM
Which, against zombies, should be absolutely nothing.


Well, if we're going for genuinely threatening (Read; Magical) Zombies, sure. I'd assumed we were going for 'Shoot it in the head!' Virus zombies, where even a couple of incredibly low calibur handgun shots to the noggin usually suffice.

I can't comment on snatching bullets out of the air, though. I don't know anything about that. Dodging people shooting at him, sure, no problem at all.

Zevox
2011-11-08, 06:58 PM
Well, if we're going for genuinely threatening (Read; Magical) Zombies, sure. I'd assumed we were going for 'Shoot it in the head!' Virus zombies, where even a couple of incredibly low calibur handgun shots to the noggin usually suffice.
...the more I learn about these "virus zombies," the less I like them. :smallsigh:

Zevox

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-08, 07:02 PM
To correct some hero information



Static Shock - His powers are not directly useful against zombies. He CAN take control of bladed metal weapons and use them to decapitate, but im not certain how fine tuned his control is. Plus, he tends to run out of energy quickly compared to many heroes.

Point one, he can fly. Zombies can't fly.

Point two, why precisely would severe burns throughout the body resulting from focused electricity not be effective. Also you know what happens when you shock living things. Muscle spasms! Even without killing outright he's going to be great for holding all the zeds immobilized while vanilla mortals do to work.


Rogue - Im talking xmen movies rogue. She cant fly, she isnt super strong, all she can do is drain energy out of people and steal mutant powers for awhile. I dont even want to think about how her ability would work on zombies, but I doubt its very well, and even if it was, I doubt it would be effective against a swarm.

That's rather cheery picking an example there. However even without Ms. Marvel flying brick abilities she isn't useless.

Anyways there's generally a super-villian or two incarcerated. You see where I'm going with this?


Pyro - Now, yes, he can burn zombies down. The problem is, it takes TIME to burn them till their brains die. I think he could immolate an army of zombies, but he would be dragged under by the burning horde before they keeled over afterwards.

Guy has precision control of flames, enough to create constructs capable of manipulation themselves. That's like having a GL Ring of burning death!


Captain America - He really doesnt have that much he can use against zombies, power wise. He is at a slightly superhuman level of strength right? He cant bench press double decker buses, but he could throw zombies around quite well. His shield I dont think it would be a very effective weapon to decapitate zombies with, especially not against a horde. I dont care how good your martial arts skills are, when the bad guys arent coming at you single file like in movies, you can get dragged down fast. Now, if his costume is bite proof that could protect him for awhile from incidental hits, but eventually, he would get dragged down and some zombie will bite his freaking nose off.

Cap can throw his mighty shield with enough force to decapitate robots. I say its a matter of how many zeds he can take in a row.

And comic book mooks don't act like the worst sort of extras, because they don't even make it that long. Cap can mow through untrained unarmed brainless mooks like nobodies business. What's more Cap doesn't tire like we do because one of his few discernible powers (aside from pure refined badassery) is not producing lactic acid in his muscles so he can keep it up for a long time.


Ghost Rider - Penance stare is useless, his chain can only take down so many zombies at a time, and remember, these are fast zombies, so its not like he has time to take them out one or two at a time. Its a bit of a stand off really. Since I doubt they could turn him into a zombie if they bit him in skull mode, and he does have his hellfire bike to make a getaway, I give him a handicap when fighting swarms of zombies.

I refer you to Venom3053000 posts with the note Ghost Rider has gone up against Wold War Hulk and been... unaffected. He doesn't need Penance Stare when he can rip through zombies at high speed like an invincible biker outta Hell.


Xavier - What the hell can he do to a zombie? I dont think he is even telekinetic. Grats on being the most powerful psychic ever charles. Too bad these guys dont have brains worth reading.

I should show you the Joss Whedon penned comic where Xavier schools a the deadly robot that had just torn through the X-men.

However barring that Xavier is intelligent and dangerous he has this useful ability: Summon X-men.

Obviously he's not the direct threat others are but as a communications center and intelligence gatherer to locate civilians, I'd welcome him.



Archery-based heroes (Green Arrow, Speedy/Red Arrow, Artemis, Hawkeye, etc): Standard arrows aren't going to do much, and there's no way they have enough exploding and otherwise effective trick arrows to handle a horde. Eventually they'll get overwhelmed by sheer numbers.

What are we counting as being head shots?

Also you forgot Roy Harper's other alias Aresenal, one of the weapons he's on record as using is sniper rifle. And I think this makes the point, count on these guys being good with just about any weapon. And umm, exploding arrows are probably about as classic as the boxing glove one.


Black Canary - I doubt her screams would have any effect on mindless corpses, which basically leaves her kung-fu fighting an army of the undead. Yeah, that's not gonna work very well.

No effect until it they're heads are blown off? She did this to Amazo at one point.

Given its not exactly the casualness of say Cyclops over on Marvel, but just about any hero with energy projection abilities of any sort is going to be more then capable of holding off zeds.


Spider Man: Would put up a better fight than some others, what with his super strength, agility, ability to cling to walls and ceilings, and webs; but I'd imagine those webs will be of limited use, and to my knowledge he doesn't have enough super strength or speed to really put much of a dent in a horde of zombies. He could probably escape with little trouble, but he'd need to get someone else to handle it.

I believe Spidey is canonically at the 10 ton range at present I believe, not quite bus levels but there. And he's fought through entire teams in seconds at times. And an immobilized zombie is canon fodder for a vanilla mortal to come along and finish, webbing will do that.

(He was stronger until somebody WHO SHALL NOT BE NAMED WITHOUT EXPLETIVES decided the story line explaining why wasn't cool enough)

Nightcrawler: Unless he can teleport those zombies over a volcano or something constantly without getting too tired or hurt in the process, he's got nothing on a horde of the undead.

I'll give that. However there's also delivering high explosives and porting out right away, well within his abilities. Definitely room to earn his BAMF effect.



Shadowcat: She can avoid getting hurt nice and easily, but there's really not much she can do to actually stop the zombies.

Hi my name is Kitty Pryde, professional ninja. I just removed your brain from its skull! Oh and your friends, they're currently exploring a close molecular relationship with concrete!

Kitty Pryde is easily the most underestimated character on the X-men, if not comics in general.

Selrahc
2011-11-08, 07:06 PM
Yeah, I would absolutely have to call BS on that. You most certainly do need Superman levels of speed to do that, as well as Superman levels of nigh-invulnerability. Less than that should result in completely failing to come anywhere close to the bullet in time, or at most having the bullet hit you in the hand and probably come out the other side.

You can call BS on it if you want, but I can cite the comic it happened in. Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man #1.
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/52044/1554426-react_5_super.jpg
There is Spidey catching the bullets.

Also, Spidey just webbing some bullets out of the air.
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/7604/677814-untitled_scanned_03_5_super.jpg


And in fact, the "Bullet going through hand" thing is what happened. He was shot with two bullets. He caught one properly, and the other went through his hand and into his shoulder. So it was right on the limits of what his reflexes could achieve.

Zevox
2011-11-08, 07:21 PM
What are we counting as being head shots?
If you'll note my most recent posts, I wasn't counting them at all, being unfamiliar with these silly "virus zombies," which apparently aren't actually zombies at all if they're not walking corpses and thus can actually be affected by brain damage.


And umm, exploding arrows are probably about as classic as the boxing glove one.
Which is why I mentioned them. The problem is a question of quantity, and I'll wager no archery-hero carries enough of them to destroy an entire zombie horde.


No effect until it they're heads are blown off? She did this to Amazo at one point.
...how? Her power is a high-pitched scream. It can't do that. I guess I could understand having it shatter glass or the like (although if memory serves from an episode of Mythbusters you actually need a low pitch to do that), but flesh?


I'll give that. However there's also delivering high explosives and porting out right away, well within his abilities. Definitely room to earn his BAMF effect.
True enough, if he can get ahold of enough of it.


You can call BS on it if you want, but I can cite the comic it happened in.
Just tells me there's been some bad writing, or huge power creep from what I'm familiar with, for him. Somehow not surprising.


And in fact, the "Bullet going through hand" thing is what happened. He was shot with two bullets. He caught one properly, and the other went through his hand and into his shoulder. So it was right on the limits of what his reflexes could achieve.
Yeah, he shouldn't have been able to catch one properly at all. Even if his reflexes were that incredible - and they shouldn't be - he doesn't have Superman-esque invulnerability, so both should have been shooting through him, not just one. That means that the comic wasn't even internally consistent in what level of power it ascribed to him in a single panel. That's really bad.

Zevox

Tiki Snakes
2011-11-08, 07:28 PM
I'll give that. However there's also delivering high explosives and porting out right away, well within his abilities. Definitely room to earn his BAMF effect.


Well, sure, he could go with bombs. I mean, punching and kicking them in the head and then teleporting away isn't going to do overly much. He could also just teleport them into the air with him and let them drop, but taking other people with him is tiring I believe.

Good job he's a sword-weilding ninja-pirate wall-crawler with built in stealth, then? Any scenario that doesn't depend on all Zombies in it being killed, he's pretty much fine. If it's literally a Kill-All-Zombies, the only question would be how long it would take, as he'd likely have to rest up now and then. With wall crawling, hiding in shadows and teleporting, he is perfectly capable of doing just that. It only becomes a problem if he's locked in a sealed room with them, or is needed to kill a very large amount in a short, set time.

Candle Jack
2011-11-08, 07:29 PM
Geez, Zevox, removing the head or destroying the brain (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RemovingTheHeadOrDestroyingTheBrain) has always been the traditional method of killing zombies since the original Night of the Living Dead.

Selrahc
2011-11-08, 07:40 PM
Just tells me there's been some bad writing, or huge power creep from what I'm familiar with, for him. Somehow not surprising.


Dude. You think Spider-Man can be beaten up by zombies. I question what version of Spider-Man you are familiar with that can be beaten by zombies, considering oblivious rom-com protagonists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaun_of_the_dead) and household plants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plants_vs._Zombies) can defeat them in one on one battle.

Is it newspaper Spider-man (http://joshreads.com/?p=721#spidey)? Because that would explain things.



Yeah, he shouldn't have been able to catch one properly at all. Even if his reflexes were that incredible - and they shouldn't be - he doesn't have Superman-esque invulnerability, so both should have been shooting through him, not just one. That means that the comic wasn't even internally consistent in what level of power it ascribed to him in a single panel. That's really bad.

In reading a comic book discrepancies with physics are a given. When a superhero lifts a heavy object over their head, the object does not fall apart or drive them into the ground. When Thor hits a mook, he does not splatter him into a thousand pieces.

When a hero with incredible reflexes and a super sense, who has spent most of the issue training to do this exact feat, catches a bullet correctly and it doesn't zip through his hand and hit him in the shoulder I can buy that. I think if you can't accept that premise then maybe superhero comics aren't for you.

Traab
2011-11-08, 07:47 PM
If you'll note my most recent posts, I wasn't counting them at all, being unfamiliar with these silly "virus zombies," which apparently aren't actually zombies at all if they're not walking corpses and thus can actually be affected by brain damage.

They are dead, or at least miracle max mostly dead. The ONLY thing that kills them is destroying the brain sufficiently. You could cut them in half at the chest and the arms will still be pulling the zombies chompers towards you until its brain gets destroyed.

TheEmerged
2011-11-08, 07:55 PM
RE: Black Canary. Um, again, let's talk about the characters' abilities as depicted instead of how we think we remember them. Her sonic cry is not limited to making your ears hurt. She's been shown to liquify metal before, including during the Silver Age. The problem (Fire of the JLI has the same issue) is that she's been shown to quickly burn out her power when using it at this intensity.

RE: Spiderman's Strength. Spidey's strength has been very inconsistently depicted. He's been shown struggling to hold a brick wall up, and he's been shown using a manhole cover to one-shot a Sentinel. There's also that bus scene depicted earlier in the thread. Back in the old FASERIP Marvel system he was listed at "Incredible" (10 tons), usually with a joke comment that it was his Agility score that put the Amazing in the Amazing Spiderman.

The local Comic Shop Guy(tm) has a theory that Spidey has a limited form of hulking out, activated by saying the magic phrase "Mary Jane!" :smallbiggrin:

Kitty Pryde. When last I had knowledge of this character (which was quite a ways ago), she was limited by how long she could hold her breath, could phase out 2-3 people at a time, and was a top-tier fighter. She kind of ends up as the reverse of Black Canary - less impact against a horde but better long-term survivability.

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-08, 07:58 PM
If you'll note my most recent posts, I wasn't counting them at all, being unfamiliar with these silly "virus zombies," which apparently aren't actually zombies at all if they're not walking corpses and thus can actually be affected by brain damage.

The question is essentially whether an arrow to a head can kill a zombie. While I'm not looking it up I know suggests they can do as well as a bullet, if not at the range firearms can. So expanding their quivers



Which is why I mentioned them. The problem is a question of quantity, and I'll wager no archery-hero carries enough of them to destroy an entire zombie horde.

No archery hero visibly carries enough to even cover their traditional heroing much less hordes of foes. Why I liked Ultimate Hawkeye using guns more often and being simply death with any projectile weapon.



...how? Her power is a high-pitched scream. It can't do that. I guess I could understand having it shatter glass or the like (although if memory serves from an episode of Mythbusters you actually need a low pitch to do that), but flesh?

Ever been around a fighter jet taking off?

Sound is fundamentally a shock wave in the air, put enough energy into it and its what happens when a bomb goes off.



Kitty Pryde. When last I had knowledge of this character (which was quite a ways ago), she was limited by how long she could hold her breath, could phase out 2-3 people at a time, and was a top-tier fighter. She kind of ends up as the reverse of Black Canary - less impact against a horde but better long-term survivability.

For a looong time (like since the 80s) Kitty Pryde is actually phased by default, she most recently had problems solidifying at all after being extracted from a bullet she phased through Earth. I don't know how this was resolved though.

She has always been able to breath while phasing, though she still does need to breath so she has to hold her breath in certain situation.

Aotrs Commander
2011-11-08, 08:11 PM
Summon X-men.

I really must learn a spell of that.

Totally not because I would abuse it in a Jubilee-related way. Totally not.


Hi my name is Kitty Pryde, professional ninja. I just removed your brain from its skull! Oh and your friends, they're currently exploring a close molecular relationship with concrete!

Kitty Pryde is easily the most underestimated character on the X-men, if not comics in general.

There was a reason SHIELD rated her on the top scale threat rating when they did that post-M-day list... They'd MET her.

(I mean, it's not like she immateriaised a planet-killing projectile in the recent past or anything, right? Oh... wait...)


The local Comic Shop Guy(tm) has a theory that Spidey has a limited form of hulking out, activated by saying the magic phrase "Mary Jane!" :smallbiggrin:

*snerk*


Kitty Pryde. When last I had knowledge of this character (which was quite a ways ago), she was limited by how long she could hold her breath, could phase out 2-3 people at a time, and was a top-tier fighter. She kind of ends up as the reverse of Black Canary - less impact against a horde but better long-term survivability.

She's levelled up since then, I think...!

Forum Explorer
2011-11-08, 08:24 PM
just want to point this out about fast zombies. If they are 28 days later style then they are actually just messed up humans. They will be killed by anything that kills a human including starvation.


Personally the best kind of zombies to fight superheroes is left 4 dead or better yet zombie hunter (http://www.thezombiehunters.com/zombies.php) zombies

Traab
2011-11-08, 08:40 PM
I generally go by the zombie survival guide book. At least in that book you get a fairly comprehensive list of abilities, strengths, and weaknesses possessed by the undead, instead of trying to piece it all together over the course of a movie. Those zombies can be decapitated, and their rolling skulls will still try to bite any flesh that comes close. Brain destruction is the only way to stop them.

Give the flash a really sharp and strong sword, and have him go blender mode at about shoulder height and then he can come back to mop up the chomping skulls later. They are about human strong and fast, so no way in hell are they landing a bite on him short of pure random luck, like say, he stops for a second and a free rolling head latches onto his heel. He then trips and falls mouth first on to another biting head. :smallbiggrin:

Zevox
2011-11-08, 08:53 PM
Geez, Zevox, removing the head or destroying the brain (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RemovingTheHeadOrDestroyingTheBrain) has always been the traditional method of killing zombies since the original Night of the Living Dead.
Which Wikipedia informs me is another movie. Again, I'm not familiar with movie portrayals of zombies, I'm thinking of them in the classical sense, better reflected by D&D than any movies apparently. Having brain damage affect a reanimated corpse just doesn't make sense.


Dude. You think Spider-Man can be beaten up by zombies. I question what version of Spider-Man you are familiar with that can be beaten by zombies, considering oblivious rom-com protagonists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaun_of_the_dead) and household plants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plants_vs._Zombies) can defeat them in one on one battle.
Just to reiterate, I'm thinking of zombies in a D&D or classical sense, as I'm not familiar with movie portrayals such as the rom-com you mentioned. As for the version of Spider Man I'm familiar with, mainly the 90s cartoon one, as well as a few video games I've rented over the years.

Also, it's not that I think he "can be beaten up by zombies" as that I did think he was powerful enough to actually do significant damage to a horde of them. Obviously he could escape relatively easily, and could probably defeat small numbers of them, it's what he could do to stop a whole army worth of them that I questioned.


In reading a comic book discrepancies with physics are a given. When a superhero lifts a heavy object over their head, the object does not fall apart or drive them into the ground. When Thor hits a mook, he does not splatter him into a thousand pieces.

When a hero with incredible reflexes and a super sense, who has spent most of the issue training to do this exact feat, catches a bullet correctly and it doesn't zip through his hand and hit him in the shoulder I can buy that. I think if you can't accept that premise then maybe superhero comics aren't for you.
Yes, but those discrepancies with physics are always a part of their powers, or at least a case of the physics in question being something the writer could easily overlook (the lifting a heavy object thing you mentioned). This? Being able to catch a bullet should obviously require some truly ridiculous levels of speed and invulnerability.

And even if the writer wanted to give Spidey that kind of power, I should at least be able to expect internal consistency on it, not him catching one but getting hit through the hand by the other. If he's tough enough to actually catch one, there's no reason he should be affected by the other; if he isn't, both should be shooting through his hands. That both would happen in the same panel is just mind-boggling.


They are dead, or at least miracle max mostly dead. The ONLY thing that kills them is destroying the brain sufficiently. You could cut them in half at the chest and the arms will still be pulling the zombies chompers towards you until its brain gets destroyed.
And that doesn't make any sense. If they are walking corpses, as they're supposed to be, the brain is no more vital an organ to them any more than any other. If they are vulnerable to brain damage, then they can't be genuinely dead, in which case they're not really zombies.


Ever been around a fighter jet taking off?

Sound is fundamentally a shock wave in the air, put enough energy into it and its what happens when a bomb goes off.
Hm, okay, fair enough.

Zevox

Traab
2011-11-08, 09:08 PM
And that doesn't make any sense. If they are walking corpses, as they're supposed to be, the brain is no more vital an organ to them any more than any other. If they are vulnerable to brain damage, then they can't be genuinely dead, in which case they're not really zombies.

They are zombies. Zombies dont make sense. The general gist of things is, the person dies, the virus, (and it is a virus) reactivates specific parts of their brain, specifically their ability to move, their senses, and they have an instinctive need to feed. Thats it. They dont feel pain, hunger, or thirst. They dont feel fear. They have no memories of their existence before they died, and the only thing that stops them is making their brain stop functioning. Their heart doesnt beat, they dont need to breathe, they dont need to rest. They are dead, all except for a small portion of their brains kept running by this virus.

Tiki Snakes
2011-11-08, 09:11 PM
Well, the brain as central to them being mobile despite death is a plausible thing even in some types of mystical zombie, to be fair.

You have your inert corpse, after all. It needs to be moved. Now, you could move it via individually moving all the bits, sure. Or you could use the existing infrastructure and just route your magical controls and/or whatever through the nervous system.

Of course, I do enjoy Evil Dead style stuff, like severed zombie hands crawling around, which precludes a brain-centric zombie and most science-zombies. The other benefit of genuine fully magical zombies is that they are really just Animated Skeletons with the wrapping still on. Or at least, if I were going evil lord of darkness, that would be the style I'd go for.

And sure, 90's Cartoon and most videogame Spideys might have a bit of trouble, but that's largely due to their tendancy to be confined to in-the-box thinking. A more flexible spidey could be happily expected to web vast crowds together, at the very least that's phenominal crowd control potential and there's nothing stopping him adding a boomstickShotgun or something to his arsenal in this specialised scenario.

Zevox
2011-11-08, 09:15 PM
They are zombies. Zombies dont make sense.
Apparently these "virus zombies" don't, at least :smallsigh: . I give up - no sense in trying to point out how dumb that whole concept is when everyone here seems to accept it as a given I suppose. Just be aware that anything I post on the subject is likely to assume D&D-style zombies, since that's what I'm familiar with, and apparently what I heavily prefer.

Zevox

Selrahc
2011-11-08, 09:25 PM
As for the version of Spider Man I'm familiar with, mainly the 90s cartoon one, as well as a few video games I've rented over the years.

Rather definitely not as powerful as he is in the comics then.


This? Being able to catch a bullet should obviously require some truly ridiculous levels of speed and invulnerability.

And even if the writer wanted to give Spidey that kind of power, I should at least be able to expect internal consistency on it, not him catching one but getting hit through the hand by the other. If he's tough enough to actually catch one, there's no reason he should be affected by the other; if he isn't, both should be shooting through his hands. That both would happen in the same panel is just mind-boggling.


The premise within the comic is that catching a bullet requires super speed, not invulnerability. Spidey is just on the cusp of being fast enough, but sadly for him, not quite good enough to do it flawlessly.

You reject the premise, based on physics. But given that all superhero comics require physics to be in abeyance in order to work as a genre, this is really just you nitpicking.

Zevox
2011-11-08, 09:30 PM
Rather definitely not as powerful as he is in the comics then.
That would certainly help explain things.


The premise within the comic is that catching a bullet requires super speed, not invulnerability.
That premise is inherently flawed - indeed, outright wrong. And this isn't something I can just overlook, like a lot of superhero physics are. This is something that should be totally obvious with mere common sense. Trust me, I'm no physicist, as my earlier error about Black Canary's powers should show - if I can tell that this is blatantly impossible, it's pretty bad.

Zevox

Traab
2011-11-08, 09:37 PM
Catching a bullet requires speed, reflexes, strength, and tough enough skin that the friction of the bullet doesnt tear it off. They caught bullets in mythbusters, it left gouges in the metal jaws required to pull it off. That millionth of a second between closing your fingers around it, and closing your fingers enough to halt it is enough to do some damage.

Mewtarthio
2011-11-08, 09:58 PM
Which Wikipedia informs me is another movie. Again, I'm not familiar with movie portrayals of zombies, I'm thinking of them in the classical sense, better reflected by D&D than any movies apparently. Having brain damage affect a reanimated corpse just doesn't make sense.

But the movie zombies are the classic zombies. Those movies are what brought zombies into American popular culture. If you want to be really pedantic, the original zombie was a mostly mindless thrall to a voodoo sorcerer, which is still closer to a "virus zombie" than to a walking corpse (on account of being technically alive).

Traab
2011-11-08, 10:08 PM
Also, I have to say that claiming a virus did it and at least trying to show the mechanics of how it could work is better than a D&D style, "A wizard necromancer did it" and passing it off as magic and therefore unquestionable. I honestly like both types, but the magic zombies tend to be far more vague in abilities strengths and weaknesses which makes it harder to quantify in this type of discussion. Sort of like trying to debate how well a superhero would do against zombies, without specifying which universe the hero comes from. Same thing with magic zombies. It depends which universes magic zombies you are talking about. And its also further complicated by questions like, "Well are the zombies magically buffed by their creator?"

Zevox
2011-11-08, 10:26 PM
Also, I have to say that claiming a virus did it and at least trying to show the mechanics of how it could work is better than a D&D style, "A wizard necromancer did it" and passing it off as magic and therefore unquestionable.
I'd say the opposite - at least having the explanation be magic makes actual sense, unlike this whole virus silliness. And what the strengths and weaknesses are seem clear enough to me: they're slow but strong, don't tire, don't have any vital organs to worry about, and need to be physically destroyed or dismembered to stop.

Zevox

Traab
2011-11-08, 10:37 PM
I'd say the opposite - at least having the explanation be magic makes actual sense, unlike this whole virus silliness. And what the strengths and weaknesses are seem clear enough to me: they're slow but strong, don't tire, don't have any vital organs to worry about, and need to be physically destroyed or dismembered to stop.

Zevox

The problem is, depending on the story, movie, or game, magic zombies can range in ability from bottom of the heap mooks alongside skeletons, and mid ranking undead, just below the level of the intelligent undead creatures, or anywhere in between. They can be killed by decapitation, need total dismemberment, or need to be dismembered and the parts BURNED to stop them from moving.

Honestly, the 28 days later zombies are the only virus zombies I can think of offhand that can be taken down by something other than a head shot. Pretty sure night of the living dead needed head shots, or am I thinking of another movie where one gets hit by a car, its spine is clearly broken, and its still dragging itself towards the people it sees? Same for the dawn of the dead remake, or resident evil movies. You can knock them down with body shots, but they will get back up and come for you again. Head shots all the way.

Coidzor
2011-11-08, 10:53 PM
The real question is, do intelligent ambulatory corpses that don't rot away and can use superpowers count as zombies or just *********s?

I favor the latter interpretation, since they're still moral actors rather than having completely lost that.


Pretty sure night of the living dead needed head shots, or am I thinking of another movie where one gets hit by a car, its spine is clearly broken, and its still dragging itself towards the people it sees? Same for the dawn of the dead remake, or resident evil movies. You can knock them down with body shots, but they will get back up and come for you again. Head shots all the way.

Indeed, they violate thermodynamics, physics, and laugh at their own handwavium as to how they're moving about by doing so and depend upon not being examined.

Candle Jack
2011-11-08, 11:28 PM
The real question is, do intelligent ambulatory corpses that don't rot away and can use superpowers count as zombies or just *********s?

Count as what? Words with lots of stars in them? :smallconfused:

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-09, 02:29 AM
Also, I have to say that claiming a virus did it and at least trying to show the mechanics of how it could work is better than a D&D style, "A wizard necromancer did it" and passing it off as magic and therefore unquestionable.

Not when you account for even the most casual facts of biology and physics.

It all well and good to have the upper brain functions off and feel no pain. However pain is the body telling you something is breaking. What happens when your in the gym and keep lifting weights after your arms keep crying out in pain? Eventually they launch an armed rebellion and stop working. Building muscle is selective injury, you break your muscles (a little) and they grow back larger to compensate. For a zombie to actually benefit from its no pain it has to be injuring itself, a fundamentally flawed strategy.

Then there's energy. Everything you do requires it. We breathe because our muscles only function with certain specific chemical reactions that happen to require oxygen and create carbon dioxide. You can't just turn on the lower brain stem and start moving a body while dead. Even ignoring this with a handwave about anaerobic chemical activity you still need energy from something, presumably still foo, and unless a zed can count on a constant food stream (and I mean constant) its going to have to store extra in its body in some form then move said energy about to places that are needed, namely some kind of circulatory system. Put simply the body still has to be alive to do this.

Virsus cannot raise the dead and retain the advantages of being dead. So you aren't going to say have zeds floating in the ocean for months at a time to come out of the water and say menace small islands.

Even handwaving that zombies are still squishy back of proteins and water. Even dead they have certain physical tolerance levels and mechanics to answer too. A zombie is not going be running with a shredded leg for example, because there will be muscles not attached and able to pull properly. If the bones are still unbroken and its got some of the right flesh it could hobble, but that barely functional limb isn't going to stand a running rhythm. Heck even the torso serves important roles in standing up, its a giant cushion to support the spine, if say shrapnel cuts open a zed's guts it going to have an impaired ability to be upright without its internal organs. And if bones get broken, which can happen from things as simple as bad falls.

All of this a virus is not allowed to ignore because labeling it a virus is attempting to put it into scientific scope. When a virus has to incur super-powers its really entering the realm of magic in the first place. And this is even giving the massive hand-waves needed for a high infection, total lethality, and short incubating virus. A zombie virus is effectively magic to begin with.

(Since this is about superheroes, they do it too plenty. Nothing explains Superman except what is functionally magic either)



Honestly, the 28 days later zombies are the only virus zombies I can think of offhand that can be taken down by something other than a head shot. Pretty sure night of the living dead needed head shots, or am I thinking of another movie where one gets hit by a car, its spine is clearly broken, and its still dragging itself towards the people it sees? Same for the dawn of the dead remake, or resident evil movies. You can knock them down with body shots, but they will get back up and come for you again. Head shots all the way.

And the hyper-rabies of 28 days later is the only remotely even remotely forgivable form of "viral" zombie. Namely by not being dead, but sure to die in short order. The movie is not plausible as an "apocalypse" but it demonstrates the only thing even remotely close without outright supernatural phenomena.

This is why Romero had it right. No explanation, dead bodies just start getting back up. It only really works as supernatural, but that's a legit possibility there. And is at least forgivable in causing the apocalypse scenario it invented because you are starting with millions of zombies, absolutely everywhere. And even there its clear only monumental (and allegorical) stupidity is the real threat.

Ravens_cry
2011-11-09, 02:42 AM
If there is no reason to believe some Super Scientist can concoct some serum to cure the undead of their affliction or some Mage to do likewise, I think destroying zombies, though regrettable, is perfectly within Heroic superhero moral and ethical parameters.

Kinslayer
2011-11-09, 07:19 AM
And even there its clear only monumental (and allegorical) stupidity is the real threat.

Depends on what the limit on how old the corpse can be. I sure as heck wouldn't want to live... anywhere mainland Europe, for example, if it's 100+ years.

Traab
2011-11-09, 07:28 AM
Depends on what the limit on how old the corpse can be. I sure as heck wouldn't want to live... anywhere mainland Europe, for example, if it's 100+ years.

The problem with that is, they wouldnt be zombies, they would be skeletons if you went back that far. Pretty sure the bodies had to be less than a couple years dead to have not had their flesh rot off completely. I dont really know the timeline on decay for properly prepared and buried bodies.

Ravens_cry
2011-11-09, 12:35 PM
Yeah, A Romero "The Dead Leave the Graves" situation is much worse than a plague zombie or from some freaky chemical. Because the latter can be contained potentially and the former requires the people who made the chemical to not be stupid and not be the Umbrella Corporation.
If every graveyard simultaneously opened up and started spitting out zombies, ever morgue started to get a little lively, every funeral home a lot more Fun™, now you have might a problem. A little safety precautions neuters them and the hoards they make up make them great for AoE effects though.

Forum Explorer
2011-11-09, 01:27 PM
And the hyper-rabies of 28 days later is the only remotely even remotely forgivable form of "viral" zombie. Namely by not being dead, but sure to die in short order. The movie is not plausible as an "apocalypse" but it demonstrates the only thing even remotely close without outright supernatural phenomena.

This is why Romero had it right. No explanation, dead bodies just start getting back up. It only really works as supernatural, but that's a legit possibility there. And is at least forgivable in causing the apocalypse scenario it invented because you are starting with millions of zombies, absolutely everywhere. And even there its clear only monumental (and allegorical) stupidity is the real threat.

The movie itself doesn't really present an apocalypse scenario. Britain is pretty messed up as a result but lots of people evacuate safely and there are survivors who just bunkered down for the whole thing. The whole plague lasts about two months before the problem solves itself. A character even points out the fact that it couldn't be a global apocalypse in the movie itself.

Yes I really like 28 days later. Its a shame they followed it up with a retarded sequel.

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-09, 03:46 PM
Yeah, A Romero "The Dead Leave the Graves" situation is much worse than a plague zombie or from some freaky chemical. Because the latter can be contained potentially and the former requires the people who made the chemical to not be stupid and not be the Umbrella Corporation.
If every graveyard simultaneously opened up and started spitting out zombies, ever morgue started to get a little lively, every funeral home a lot more Fun™, now you have might a problem. A little safety precautions neuters them and the hoards they make up make them great for AoE effects though.

Even then its a question of what the cut off is and burial practices. When do you go from corpse to old bones. Circumstantial evidence of depiction would suggest that the zeds have to be reasonably fresh.

And burial would matter a great deal. I know for example some of my departed kin weren't simply in coffins but in stone/concrete/whatever tombs around the coffins. With a couple feet of dirt on you its difficult enough dig out of a coffin since you have neither leverage nor volume. Non-embalmed corpses simply buried in a shroud might well be even worse off from quick decay. And of course cremation, nations like Japan have a 99% rate of cremation, in the States it varies but averages out to 33% with some place twice that, while to the north Canada is presently at 68%.

However hundreds of thousands of people have to die every day, and there's going to be some backlog. All of which means I'd expect zombies in the millions though not worst case billions.


The movie itself doesn't really present an apocalypse scenario. Britain is pretty messed up as a result but lots of people evacuate safely and there are survivors who just bunkered down for the whole thing. The whole plague lasts about two months before the problem solves itself. A character even points out the fact that it couldn't be a global apocalypse in the movie itself.

Yes I really like 28 days later. Its a shame they followed it up with a retarded sequel.

Yes precisely. So help me I'm a little surprised you could even effect the majority of England much less Britain.

Coidzor
2011-11-09, 05:58 PM
Yes precisely. So help me I'm a little surprised you could even effect the majority of England much less Britain.

You'd think they'd die of dehydration in 2-3 days and that less population centers would be within a web of 2-3 days hustle of one another from Cambridge (or was it Oxford?). Or that they'd have a whole lot of impetus to go on a beeline to other population centers even if they were on the edge of the one that they spawned in.

Certainly doesn't seem like it would make it up to the highlands or side islands unless people were deliberately spreading it by luring infected onto some kind of transport, sealing them up so that they could direct the transport where it was to go without being nommed on and the trip being aborted, and, well, actually, that alone is kinda... @_@

Even breaching the hills separating Wales from England on foot seems a bit odd.

It's not like in some zombie movies where some people take hours to turn (and yet others take seconds, yay inconsistency!) and can be stealth patient zeros for a community they run to because they're either complete idiots or ****s; it's blood contact, maybe 20 seconds, followed by ragefacing out.


The problem with that is, they wouldnt be zombies, they would be skeletons if you went back that far. Pretty sure the bodies had to be less than a couple years dead to have not had their flesh rot off completely. I dont really know the timeline on decay for properly prepared and buried bodies.

Before or after the rise of cement vaults and steel-lined caskets? Cuz without something keeping their bones/flesh from deteriorating (like skeletons who reform even after being mashed to meal)

IIRC, modern embalming techniques are even stronger than the ones we had back in the 70s and 80s, so between the sterilization of the casket area and keeping detritivores from getting access to it by design as well as the embalming itself, the only way human bodies break down is into a sort of anaerobic-microbe-fueled goo. Which, depending upon zombie-type, seems like it would actually prevent a fair bit of the use of their limbs if a not insignificant portion were to be liquefied.

However, most of my information on this is from an ex girlfriend's research paper comparing "green burials" and what is currently mainstream burial in the U.S.

Forum Explorer
2011-11-09, 07:48 PM
You'd think they'd die of dehydration in 2-3 days and that less population centers would be within a web of 2-3 days hustle of one another from Cambridge (or was it Oxford?). Or that they'd have a whole lot of impetus to go on a beeline to other population centers even if they were on the edge of the one that they spawned in.

Certainly doesn't seem like it would make it up to the highlands or side islands unless people were deliberately spreading it by luring infected onto some kind of transport, sealing them up so that they could direct the transport where it was to go without being nommed on and the trip being aborted, and, well, actually, that alone is kinda... @_@

Even breaching the hills separating Wales from England on foot seems a bit odd.

It's not like in some zombie movies where some people take hours to turn (and yet others take seconds, yay inconsistency!) and can be stealth patient zeros for a community they run to because they're either complete idiots or ****s; it's blood contact, maybe 20 seconds, followed by ragefacing out.


.

I've kinda theorized that the infected take minimal care of themselves in that movie and that it was only after 56 days that the newest started to die from malnutrition of eating and drinking whatever.

Aren't there any roads through to Wales? Besides I imagine that most people would evacuate anyways just in case.

Anteros
2011-11-10, 07:17 PM
You'd think they'd die of dehydration in 2-3 days and that less population centers would be within a web of 2-3 days hustle of one another from Cambridge (or was it Oxford?). Or that they'd have a whole lot of impetus to go on a beeline to other population centers even if they were on the edge of the one that they spawned in.

Certainly doesn't seem like it would make it up to the highlands or side islands unless people were deliberately spreading it by luring infected onto some kind of transport, sealing them up so that they could direct the transport where it was to go without being nommed on and the trip being aborted, and, well, actually, that alone is kinda... @_@

Even breaching the hills separating Wales from England on foot seems a bit odd.

It's not like in some zombie movies where some people take hours to turn (and yet others take seconds, yay inconsistency!) and can be stealth patient zeros for a community they run to because they're either complete idiots or ****s; it's blood contact, maybe 20 seconds, followed by ragefacing out.



Before or after the rise of cement vaults and steel-lined caskets? Cuz without something keeping their bones/flesh from deteriorating (like skeletons who reform even after being mashed to meal)

IIRC, modern embalming techniques are even stronger than the ones we had back in the 70s and 80s, so between the sterilization of the casket area and keeping detritivores from getting access to it by design as well as the embalming itself, the only way human bodies break down is into a sort of anaerobic-microbe-fueled goo. Which, depending upon zombie-type, seems like it would actually prevent a fair bit of the use of their limbs if a not insignificant portion were to be liquefied.

However, most of my information on this is from an ex girlfriend's research paper comparing "green burials" and what is currently mainstream burial in the U.S.

Even bodies kept soaking in constant embalming fluid for study purposes tend to break down to the point where they have to be thrown out after 5 years or so.