Balancing the Shapeshift Druid

[NeoSeraphi]

So I really like the shapeshift druid variant (PHB II). It really weakens the druid class. No animal companion, and wild shape at will, but only into certain level appropriate creatures. No casting while shaped. Instead of replacing your physical stats, it enhances them, and you get a small boon to your Natural Armor as well, but everything is set in stone and regulated carefully, instead of being up to you and your search-fu.

So rather than leafing through the Monster Manual to find the most appropriate creature who can pwn everything, you have a slightly more powerful, better scaling rage ability. Since it enhances your base stats, it severely reduces the SAD of a druid, while not having any of the problems of the rage ability (lasts as long as you want, as many times per day as you want)

The problem is that all of this is a powerful nerf, but it helps set the druid up for a more melee-focused role. As you can't cast while you're an animal, you are either in melee, you are using your shapeshift to escape or scout, or you are in your true form and you are casting. You can't mix and match.

Yet the shapeshift druid is just so incredibly bad at melee. And I'm comparing him to the original druid here. He loses all the attack options of whatever he shifts into. That means no raking, no rending, no pounce, and to top it off, not only does the druid get ridiculously high Strength from his wildshapes (An 8 can turn into a 30) but he can stack it with bite of the were-x, while the shapeshift druid is unable to stack those bonuses because his shapeshifted form only grants him an enhancement bonus.

So how can you bring the shapeshift druid closer to a melee-focused druid, while still keeping it an effective nerf?

[Kenneth]

I have one solution.

make his shapeshift bonus to stats from an enhancement bonus to a competance bonus.


BINGO!! now bite of X stacks and so does cat's grace and barkskin!

but how does this shapeshift druid compare to say.. a fighter in melee or to give most playgrounders a nod the Warblade?

[NeoSeraphi]

I have one solution.

make his shapeshift bonus to stats from an enhancement bonus to a competance bonus.


BINGO!! now bite of X stacks and so does cat's grace and barkskin!

That could work for balancing the stats, sure, but it doesn't solve the limited attack options problem. Basically, the problem with the shapeshift druid is you're turning into an animal but you're not fighting like an animal, you're fighting like a human who turned into an animal. (While the druid gets to fight like an animal)


but how does this shapeshift druid compare to say.. a fighter in melee or to give most playgrounders a nod the Warblade?

Depends on the level. At 1st level, the superior stats will make a big difference, assuming the druid and the fighter have the same strength. If you're comparing a druid to a barbarian though (which is a much more balanced comparison) the barbarian is more powerful, as they have the same stats, same movement speeds, and the barbarian gets to use a weapon with higher damage dice and 1 1/2 times his Strength modifier to damage.

At higher levels, the full BAB classes get a second attack sooner, but the druid gets 3 attacks at level 8 (Two at his highest bonus, but that bonus is always going to be lower than a full BAB class)

Then at higher levels, the druid's best forms only get two attacks per round, while a warblade gets 4-8 (if he's a TWF Tiger Claw specialist). So while the druid will have higher Strength, the warblade gets to throw his around a lot more.

It depends, like so many things, on the druid's spell selection.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Kenneth's idea is good. Another idea might be to give Natural Spell back as a metamagic feat, perhaps with a +1 or +2 spell level. That lets you cast emergency buffs on yourself, but provides strong incentive NOT to do all your casting in animal form. A third option would be to improve the forms' level-up abilities. Give the predator form Improved Trip instead of Mobility, and so on.

[Deepbluediver]

Give the druid most of the special features and abilities of whatever he shapeshifts into, but limit the different number of forms that he can take.

Shapeshifting is complicated magic, and it always bugged me that a druid (or a wizard or any number of other classes) could go *poof* I'm a bear, *poof* I'm a squid, *poof* I'm a T-rex with lazer eyes!

From a roleplaying perspecting, I like to think that each band of druids (or each individual druid even) venerates the strength of a different wild animal, and so they only practice shapeshifting into that one creature, and maybe a few related shapes.
For example, suppose your druid favors the strength of a bear. At first level he shapeshifts into a black bear. At 4th level he adds grizzly bear to his abilities. At 8th level he gets a dire bear, etc.

Alternative, work up some special druid-specific shapeshifts, which take the FORM of a bear/lion/snake/eagle but have druid-specific stats which vary by level.

[NeoSeraphi]

Kenneth's idea is good. Another idea might be to give Natural Spell back as a metamagic feat, perhaps with a +1 or +2 spell level. That lets you cast emergency buffs on yourself, but provides strong incentive NOT to do all your casting in animal form. A third option would be to improve the forms' level-up abilities. Give the predator form Improved Trip instead of Mobility, and so on.

Emergency buffs? But the druid doesn't cast spontaneously. Which means you'd have to prepare your "emergency" buffs when you woke up...and unlike a wizard, a druid doesn't have all these overpowered and vague divination spells that let him know what to prepare. And since shifting back and forth is a swift action, I think most people would rather just shift back to their true form, cast, and then wait a round before shifting back into their animal form rather than burn a +2 spell level (and spend a feat slot on the ability to do so)

The Improved Trip ability is good, assuming you also wanted to add the Trip special attack of the wolf to it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Emergency buffs? But the druid doesn't cast spontaneously. Which means you'd have to prepare your "emergency" buffs when you woke up...and unlike a wizard, a druid doesn't have all these overpowered and vague divination spells that let him know what to prepare. And since shifting back and forth is a swift action, I think most people would rather just shift back to their true form, cast, and then wait a round before shifting back into their animal form rather than burn a +2 spell level (and spend a feat slot on the ability to do so)
Eh, just a thought.

[/quote]The Improved Trip ability is good, assuming you also wanted to add the Trip special attack of the wolf to it.[/QUOTE]
The wolf ability is what I meant, yeah.

[NeoSeraphi]

From a roleplaying perspecting, I like to think that each band of druids (or each individual druid even) venerates the strength of a different wild animal, and so they only practice shapeshifting into that one creature, and maybe a few related shapes.
For example, suppose your druid favors the strength of a bear. At first level he shapeshifts into a black bear. At 4th level he adds grizzly bear to his abilities. At 8th level he gets a dire bear, etc.

They already have something like, it's called a totem druid variant. (It's from one of the Dragon Magazines). It also gives you an animal companion like that faster and sooner.

Er...but it definitely doesn't let you wildshape into a dire bear (12 HD) at level 8...



Alternative, work up some special druid-specific shapeshifts, which take the FORM of a bear/lion/snake/eagle but have druid-specific stats which vary by level.

That would be something I could do, yes...but if that happens, you just end up dumpster diving for books again looking for the best attack qualities and forms, only this time stats don't play into it because your stats are generic.

I think the better idea would be to work out some basic generic forms, like the shapeshifter has now, but with better options for attacks, like rending, tripping, pouncing and grabbing. (Possibly a venomous creature as well)

[Prime32]

I've toyed with subbing the spellcasting for maneuvers as a warblade. If you still want magic then maybe give it adept or mystic ranger casting.

[NeoSeraphi]

I've toyed with subbing the spellcasting for maneuvers as a warblade. If you still want magic then maybe give it adept or mystic ranger casting.

Maneuvers? Interesting...but that would just end up being its own class then...some kind of lycanthropic martial adept, rather than a druid...

Still, not a bad thing...

[Amechra]

My fix would be to keep the same shapes, and then give them an Astral Construct-esque slot system, which would include general awesome (like maybe the greenbound template, or the mineral warrior template, or something like that.)

[Ashtagon]

My fix would be to keep the same shapes, and then give them an Astral Construct-esque slot system, which would include general awesome (like maybe the greenbound template, or the mineral warrior template, or something like that.)

I quite like this idea of adding astral construct style slots. However...

A big part of the shapeshift druid variant was to bring the druid back in line with the 1e/2e druids. There, the druid was a primary caster who could shift into utility animal forms only. That class never shapeshifted for combat. If you re-enable the whole idea of making the shapeshifting useful for combat, you defeat the whole point of the variant.

[NeoSeraphi]

My fix would be to keep the same shapes, and then give them an Astral Construct-esque slot system, which would include general awesome (like maybe the greenbound template, or the mineral warrior template, or something like that.)

:smalleek: The...the greenbound template? That's...a little much. Other than that, though, the Astral Construct slot system would be perfect! Lots of customization, like a Pathfinder summoner.

[NeoSeraphi]

I quite like this idea of adding astral construct style slots. However...

A big part of the shapeshift druid variant was to bring the druid back in line with the 1e/2e druids. There, the druid was a primary caster who could shift into utility animal forms only. That class never shapeshifted for combat. If you re-enable the whole idea of making the shapeshifting useful for combat, you defeat the whole point of the variant.

But the shapeshift druid doesn't really offer any utility forms. It offers a predator (combat), aerial (flying, scout, so yes this one is utility), feral monster (very very combat), forest avenger (tank/combat) and elemental fury (combat/planar survivability).

I mean, you don't even get a form that can swim. How is that utility?

[Ashtagon]

Yeah, it kind of failed at that goal too :smallfrown:

[NeoSeraphi]

Yeah, it kind of failed at that goal too :smallfrown:

Yeah. And my goal isn't to "fix" the shapeshift variant, it's to use the shapeshift variant as a base to create a melee-centric druid that isn't as Tier 1 as a regular druid.

[Hyooz]

You could expand Master of Many Forms to a base class, focused entirely on Wildshape. You get your attack types, the huge versatility and utility of (eventually) basically everything in the monster manuals, but without spells or an animal companion.

Give it a decent BAB and something to help it out low levels, and you have a pretty solid class.

[Amechra]

Greenbound would be something like one of those Astral Construct thingies where they chose your abilities for you; in essence, all that form would do is give you the Greenbound template.

[Grod_The_Giant]

If you're seriously modifying the class, one thing you could do is give a steady tickle of special abilities- Pounce, Rend, Poison, and so on- that can be used in any of your animal forms.

[jiriku]

Honestly, I really don't have a problem with the shapeshifted druid being merely mediocre at melee combat. He's more than compensated by his casting ability. If you'd like to be able to build a druid that functions that way, I'd suggest the best way would be to add feats and ACFs that allow the druid to parlay his existing resources into extra features. Feats for monsters and shifters could serve as a good starting point.

For example, a feat granting scent in predator form, and perhaps a Survival bonus when tracking by scent, would greatly increase its effectiveness as a utility form. An option to swap the predator or aerial form for an aquatic one would be useful for aquatic-themed campaigns.

[RedWarlock]

I've been doing a lot of fiddling with the Druid in my own 3.5 game (I referred to it as a 3.9 edition, because I was borrowing in material from late 3.5 and from 4e outright). Many of the changes are fiddly-bits system-wide (all casters are spontaneous, or the condensed skill list), but the main two changes I made were to replace the 9th level casting with the Bard's casting progression (though tweaked to actually get a 1st level spell at level 1), and making the Shapeshift standard.

I also borrowed and tweaked and expanded on a set of feats to add and alter what Shapeshift can do (including adding extra forms). I also bumped up the stats on the forms, but if I was going back to it now, I'd put them back to book-standard.

Instead, what I would do is give them a limited maneuver progression, and have each form select from two or three disciplines (the predator form would get shadow hand and tiger claw, the ferocious slayer would get iron heart and stone dragon, maybe. I'd have to look in-depth..) Those maneuvers would be locked in to the form (probably player-selected, though DM's veto), but the number of maneuvers would be based on total druid level, giving some use to the lower level forms for alternate purposes and flexibility.

[Roderick_BR]

I always felt that shapshift was supposed to be an adventuring aid, not a huge melee boost as so many people uses it for, at least in 3.x (2nd was not so powerful as I recall), allowing you to get multiple modes of movement, and access to some special abilities (like scent).
You could have the original wildshape as shapeshifting spells, giving you more powerful forms, while wildshape allows at-will utilitary uses.

[Xaeo]

Simple fix as I see it, basically split the shape-shift into two catergories.

You can either be a shift into an animal aspect while retaining your core personality and thus you will only get a bonus to your attributes.

Or you could shift into a full animal aspect, in which you loose your core personality and instead use your new animal instincts of the form you have inheritted. Meaning you take on the animal more fully, gain their attributes while also using their special abilities.

That's one way I would try and change it. You'd still be able to power a certain stat up to 20 if you wanted, or trade off for lower stats but more options of abilities to use.