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Sariusmonk
2011-11-07, 11:23 PM
I hope this hasn't been discussed over and over again, as I've had a brief search and cannot find any results.

A brief summary of what I'm about to write / explain is as follows:

I've just started D&D 4th edition as a DM having never really played before, with 4 players who have also never played before. We have The Red Box, the "Essentials" Monster Vault, Dungeon Master's Guide, Heroes of the Fallen Lands and Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms. For some reason we also have the 4th Edition "Underdark" book. We've finished the Red Box and I'm about to set them free into the world. I've watched Youtube video's for advice, read the books, read forum posts, watched *everything* Chris Perkins, yet I don't know how to DM properly, the thought overwhelms me. There's too much to read and to much to learn, what do I do?


In full my concerns are this (With Bold highlights on the key concerns):

As briefly mentioned, we have the books, we have finished the Red Box. I feel like with their set dungeon using 4th edition, it's gone okay, the way the game plays feels that the combat is one of the centrepieces and needs planning and preparation to feel fun.

At the next session the group will be resurfacing from the dungeon and visiting for the first time "Fallcrest" to return the magic box to the dwarf Traevus.

Bear in mind at the moment, everything we've used is Essentials and Red Box. My first big concern is;
1. How do I handle DM'ing Fallcrest for the players? It seems a rather big city with a lot of things for them to explore, I don't feel I can commit to memory enough of the details to let them just free roam, yet I really don't want to make them feel they have no control. I've never seen any examples of DM's letting players in a town area. So I have no idea how to handle this. How do you manage DM'ing a town?

With that worry looming nearer, more present themselves,.. I want the world to be believable, and there's so much to put in the world to make it feel living and breathing that I know I can't keep track of enough of it, out of the 3 previous red-box exclusive sessions I know I've already made plenty of mistakes and slip ups,.. especially regarding lore.. which leads me to

2. There's so much Lore. In the essentials DM kit there's maybe 6 or so pages on the Gods and what they do, and in some Wikipedia articles and other sources I've found out bits and bobs that certain ones roam the world, others live in some Astral Sea realm or something... Other's live in realms called The Shadowfell / Feywild / Underdark,.. so many places and settings I have no clue about, yet feel I need to or should, I don't know how I acustom myself to gradually learn about these things? What's the order of things I should read, how do other DM's come to be "caught up" I feel like I'm 40 years behind on reading that I have no idea how to feel I know anything about DnD. How do I learn the lore at a proper pace when every new piece of information I learn adds 5 to 10 new questions regarding the lore?

So let's say for now I leave that out of my mind, my players are only level 2, sure Fallcrest will have temples that I wont know how to explain, but I can gloss over them, or not play them up by distracting them with more pressing concerns (I guess, or I hope?) - But then it comes to something the DM kit seems to not easily explain;

3. I plan to have adventure hooks in my campaign to lead them down certain paths, but I want some variety. I've read about the idea of having multiple arcs in a campaign, events that happen and the players may slip in and out of in terms of their contribution, hopefully leading to some intense crossovers etc.. But how do I plan encounters for unpredictable player actions? Let's say they cause a bar fight, that'll be a completely different combat encounter (if it concludes that way?) to if they run off into the woods... 4th Edition seems to have heavy combat focus, and having appropriate NPC's in appropriate settings seems important. Do I plan for every outcome? Or what kind of prep is required to make sure no matter what path players pick, there's a suitably difficult and well thought out combat encounter scenario for them to enjoy, which can lead on to more? When there's multiple paths, how do you make sure each path they pick can be challenging and fun?

I may just have to leave this thread with these questions for now, as I really do have way too many, and I think even this is quite a lot to ask of anyone to read, let alone respond to. I feel overwhelmed with DM'ing (yet I'm the only one willing to, and I want to end up being a good DM, I really do) because the more I learn, the more I feel it's out of date, the more there is to learn, new stuff is always out. My players are playing out of the 2 "Essentials" books, yet I see the hardback books offer different classes and I hear speak of hybrid and so many races and all these things, I don't want to feel like I'm giving them a lousy experience as to what the games potential can really be. As I say, I have the "essentials" and I have no idea how to comfortably expand my knowledge from there, I've literally come into this three weeks ago, and from what seemed a manageable amount to run seems like an entire Universe of detail.

Eldest
2011-11-07, 11:50 PM
OK, so...
1. Essentials is a subsystem of 4th Edition. It also works completely on it's own and is compatible with the rest of 4e. Hybrids are one of several things that are in the PHB 1-3. You don't need to worry about them.
2. How to DM a town: you prepare maybe 6-10 distinctive NPC personalities, and a few possible encounters sketched out roughly (no map). Then, when the PCs scatter to the seven winds, you can plug in the NPCs and encounters as needed. So a whipcord-thin human with a distinctive scar and a nice laugh becomes the thief's guild leader the rouge was looking for, and the fight with feral dogs an initiation. They would never know you originally thought of the human as a guard and the dogs were going to attack him in a dark alley. (you could have also prepped an encounter with a eldarin arcanist and her bodyguard, some cavalry, and maybe one with a big monster (crocodile, perhaps?)
3. If you run into something you hadn't planned for, ask for a five minute break from your group. They should understand, and it should give you enough time to figure out what you are going to do. This counts for your example of the PCs running into the woods instead of exploring the nice city you made (how dare they!?!).
4. Ok, the Astral Sea=where gods live, the Primordial Chaos (or something like that, I can't exactly recall the name)=all the elements wizzing around, the Feywild=giant nature park, where nature tries to eat you (there are also faeries, and not the nice kind), the Shadowfell=gloomy place with lotsa death related things, the Underdark=giant cave system connecting all of the natural world together...
But none of that matters.
You see, if YOU chose not to bring your story to any of these places (and trust me, level two is not the place to go anywhere), the story brushes over them. Same with the gods: if you don't bring the god into the campaign, the god doesn't show up. Only bring in what you know and understand. If your players are confused as to why there isn't much fluff just tell them you don't know it yet. Then you know what to look for and you can look it up for the next session.

Any of that helpful?

NecroRebel
2011-11-08, 12:05 AM
Sounds like you're stressing overmuch over trying to be a "good DM" because you seem to feel that that is quite similar to being, say, a "good author." You don't need to have a perfectly-consistent world to be a good DM (or, in fact, for the world to be believable). You don't need to have a description for every building the players might walk into; saying, "alright, you find a suitable shop and it has/does not have what you want" is entirely reasonable. Really, you're better off glossing over everything that isn't directly relevant to the plot, because your players are quite likely to forget about it within minutes anyway.

DMing in general involves a great deal of back-and-forth. You don't need to come up with everything yourself; your players will ask questions about the world, and unless it totally flies in the face of what you had planned, feel free to say, "yes, it's like that," or "yes, there is one of those." Roleplaying games are much like playing in improvisational theater, and one of the best ways of doing improv is the "yes, and..." rule: whenever somebody says something, you say "yes, and" then build on it, because building on what already exists, even (perhaps especially) if it comes from other people, is vastly easier than building worlds from nothing.

As to your more specific questions...

DMing a town mostly involves just deciding what sorts of things will be available. The towns in the actual books are vastly more detailed than they actually need to be, and there's, what, 5 NPCs that are actually statted out? Everything else is just general, "OK, there's a wizard tower," "OK, there's an inn," "OK, there's some cliffs running through the town." Not that complicated. The details don't matter much, since in all likelihood you won't actually have to use them, ever.


If you're interested in the lore that's given, you'll find it easy enough to work through eventually. If you're not... Don't use it. It's that simple; the game is made so that you can make up your own lore easily. It might not be as detailed, but so what? Your players aren't likely to care if you don't describe exactly what the god's symbol looks like.


The best part about 4e is that you don't need to build encounters for every possibility. It's reasonably easy to crack open a monster book and build an appropriate encounter within a couple minutes; just pick a level for the encounter and it gives an XP value for the encounter, the fill the budget with a couple soldier or brute monsters and some things of other roles. You can even refluff things if you need to.

For instance, you asked about how to make a bar brawl-type encounter. Let's say for a level 2 party; let's make it be a level 2 encounter. I crack open the Monster Vault, check out the stats on humans, dwarves, elves, and halflings as monsters, and see, hey, I can build an encounter with those! 1 Dwarf Clan Guard as a soldier, a human Town Guard as another, and a pair of human Common Bandits for a couple skirmishers, and an Elven Archer for an artillery piece, and I'm done. Throw together a basic barroom map, and the encounter's ready! Took all of 5 minutes, including typing this up.


For more "important" fights, that are actually plot-relevant before the players decide to do them (the brawl might involve them getting thrown in jail for beating up an off-duty guard and pressganged into working for the local government; plot hook!), you can design them more carefully beforehand, but as long as monster roles are mixed and monsters and the encounter itself are an appropriate level, building encounters is quite easy.


You'll do better as a DM if you just relax a bit. Don't let yourself get too stressed, and, most importantly, make sure you enjoy it. Nothing's worse than being forced to play a game you don't enjoy.

tcrudisi
2011-11-08, 12:42 AM
1. How do I handle DM'ing Fallcrest for the players? ... How do you manage DM'ing a town?

I let the players make up the city. By that, what I mean is: if something is important or they have to go somewhere, it exists. Otherwise, the players tend to ask me, "Where's the magic shop?" Then, bam! It exists. Until then? It didn't exist. Or, "Is there a brothel that's giving 50% discounts today?" Then, suddenly, bam! There's a full-price brothel with halflings in it. Note that this even works for smaller towns. All I usually have to say is "small town" or "large city" and the players tend to come up with what they expect to be in it. Rarely I might say no, but really -- I'm still letting the players make up the city whether they know it or not.


2. There's so much Lore. ... How do I learn the lore at a proper pace when every new piece of information I learn adds 5 to 10 new questions regarding the lore?

Really good question. Here's how I handle the lore: I started by purchasing all the old basic D&D books and reading those. Then I moved on to AD&D. Then 2nd edition. I skipped 3rd because it's crap anyways. Then I read all the 4th edition books three times each to make sure it was properly memorized.

Nah, I'm kidding. Even though I've been playing since 1st/2nd edition, I know about 3% of the lore. That's it. I don't even care to learn more. One of the wonderful things about being a DM is that you can make up your own lore. If you don't want to use the actual D&D lore, then guess what? It's not important. As your players ask questions about the lore, make it up. Remember what you said. Carry those answers with you through the years and in no time you'll find you have your own world with its own unique idiosyncrasies that your players will love, especially since they will have helped to build the world.


3. I plan to have adventure hooks in my campaign to lead them down certain paths, but I want some variety. ... 4th Edition seems to have heavy combat focus ... Do I plan for every outcome? Or what kind of prep is required to make sure no matter what path players pick, there's a suitably difficult and well thought out combat encounter scenario for them to enjoy, which can lead on to more? When there's multiple paths, how do you make sure each path they pick can be challenging and fun?

First of all, the rules have a heavy combat focus but how the game actually plays out is entirely up to you. Roleplaying doesn't need rules. If you feel your games have too much combat, then take out some of the combat. It really is that simple.

Second, very little prep is actually required -- use the same combat encounter. Sure, sure, you might have to change the environment the fight takes place in, but you can use the exact same monsters. It's even possible to do if they are deciding between two very different plot lines: goblins are raiding local villages and a black wizard is summoning Harold Camping who is going to summon the end of the world. These are two very different plot lines that will involve different monsters, right? Right.

I mean, wrong. Let's say you had the goblins ready to go and suddenly you realize that the players are going to try to save the world. Pft. Silly players, they should know that Harold Camping is no threat. Well, instead of scrambling to make up new monsters, just refluff the goblins. Suddenly the black wizard has some human guards that fight very similarly to goblins. Who would have thought? Same hp, same AC, same stab attack for infinite damage. All you changed was the environment that the monsters were fought in (and, their appearance too, I guess).


I feel overwhelmed with DM'ing (yet I'm the only one willing to, and I want to end up being a good DM, I really do) because the more I learn, the more I feel it's out of date, the more there is to learn, new stuff is always out.

It is overwhelming at first. Just, trust me when I say that 4e is so much easier to DM than previous editions. That's not to say that it's easy (because it's not). It's just no longer nearly as tedious. You will do fine. If you are this willing to make the game as good as possible, then you will be a great DM.

Sariusmonk
2011-11-08, 03:15 AM
Awesome replies guys, really appreciated. I'll have to plan some NPC's but I'll try to relax about the town, tell them they're free to "explore" and if they're after a specific building to let me know, then I guess I'll say "After a few minutes searching, or asking around, you find yourself at X" so forth..

As I've mentioned, I haven't ever played so I'm not entirely sure on the pacing of a game. When I read some people's logs and the way things are described, I imagine significant events that occur taking up large gaming time. But when I try to play out how I'd DM those situations, it feels like it'd go by rather quickly.

I think regarding the 4e lore, I'll ease myself into it, you're right they wont be asking a lot of questions at the moment, and the way I wrapped up the red box, I had the wizard (Malareth) say something along the lines of "You will not stop the coming of Orcus" - So, that's something they'll want to learn about, and I can read up on him, no need to know other demons, angels or Gods straight away because they're interested in this Cult of Orcus for the time being. I could tie in The Keep on the Shadowfell as a second Cult of Orcus.

I think what I kind of meant by that question though, not necessarily just regarding lore, and I'll bold for those who skim, but ; How do you come to know the edition has been updated, when do you know you're up to date on rules etc? - I like seeing the discussion people are having with the changes, and I hear how "Monster Manual 1" is out of date, but how do you come to learn this and keep so up to date with D&D that you feel you're understanding what's coming out / changes are ahead etc.. As I say, I've got my books, and I've had a little look on the Wizards website (but it's difficult to navigate)

I'll be DM'ing this Wednesday and our sessions only last 3-4 hours tops, so I'll prepare 5 or so "goblin" encounters (reskinnable) - and maybe 1 or 2 specific ones I will try to lure them into. And see how the town exploration does go, I'll report back if people are interested.

I shall try to take a more laid back approach to it, from what other tips I've managed to glean, it's to imagine a campaign arc or two, know what the NPC's "would" do and what they know etc.. and then let the players craft the story themselves, they should hopefully fall into the arcs with their interactions, with the occasional unrelated adventure / dungeon crawl to keep things varied.

I do have another couple questions that are more specific to my players at the moment (Just typed them out and realised they're quite long, so I'll bold the key parts again if you want to skim read);

Granted all our combat so far has been at level 1, I've noticed they treat each room the same, regardless of what is in the room. The party consists of a Wizard, Hunter, Slayer and Warpriest. The Slayer will occasionally bull rush, but otherwise, all he feels he *can* do is his regular attack (and once per encounter his encounter power strike thing) What other kind of options should he be looking to do to spice up his game? I realise a Slayer seems to use their basic attack and a slight modifier with their abilities. But what else can the Slayer be doing on a turn by turn basis beyond his basic attacks?

The Warpriest has the most interesting job, using their healing word as a minor, and then using one of their at-will attacks (Though I'm a little fuzzy and can't find in the rules how to work out. Their "Blessing of Battle" is a melee attack, and yet the attack says: "Wisdom vs AC" - Do we use their Mace proficiency + Wisdom modifier to work out their attack? I've re-skimmed but with all the books I'm lost on how to work out Wisdom vs AC when the attack is a melee action)

The Mage I feel sorry for in some cases because everyone else is rolling dice on their turn, and there's the occasion where the most logical thing to do is cast magic missile, so she does and that's her turn over,.. no dice... I've added a house-rule that she can roll a d20, it'll never miss, but if she scores a natural 20 she can do double damage, gives her something to do. But regarding the Mage and the Hunter, every room they stand in the doorway and shoot / cast, never needing to move. What kind of things can I do to get them to move?

Again thanks for the replies, they've been a great comfort and a great help. It's nice to come across such a kind community online :smallsmile:.

LoneStarNorth
2011-11-08, 03:53 AM
First and foremost, as a dungeon master you will make lots and lots of mistakes, and it's okay. Really, it is. Above and beyond all rules and lore, commit that fact to memory. You're only human, and your players know that (unless they're jerks). As for your second batch of questions...

1. New books come out every month or so (right?), and errata usually follows. But you don't NEED to stay up to date if you don't want to. 4e is, overall, very well balanced. Just concentrate on the books you and your players have and only buy new ones if you think they sound awesome. Furthermore, if something you need to know isn't in your books, make something up! This goes for both rules and lore.

2. I don't know much about the slayer, I'll have to skip this one (but see answer 4). Someone else will get it, I'm sure.

3. A Wis vs AC attack using the character's Wisdom modifer plus 1/2 their level. If the power has the weapon keyword, then they also add their proficiency bonus. It doesn't matter what ability score is being used, just whether the attack has that keyword. The same thing goes for the implement keyword.

4. If you find this happens a lot, try to have more than one thing going on in the encounter. Have a second set of monsters come running in behind the party, summoned by an alarm. Or have a lurker emerge from hiding right next to the mage. Or have some sort of trap or mechanism that needs to be manipulated immediately (say a conveyor belt about to drop a piece of treasure into a pit of acid) rather than left until after the battle. While the melee characters keep the monsters busy, the ranged characters can work on that. You don't have to do this in EVERY battle, just be sure to mix things up a bit.

KillianHawkeye
2011-11-08, 05:56 AM
DMing is one of those things that you have to learn by doing. That's the only way to get good at it. I've been at it for a few years now and I'm still not happy with my descriptive ability, although my players claim they always have fun.

PrinceOfMadness
2011-11-08, 12:02 PM
One of the greatest tools in a DM's arsenal is the ability to improvise. I'll give you an example of my Deathwatch session from Saturday:

"You come out in a massive open area, crisscrossed with gargantuan pipes. Your attention is immediately drawn to a stream of heretics, several hundred meters distant, who seem to be heading somewhere in a hurry. Your gaze follows the heretics to a large doorway, guarded by several heavy weapon emplacements. About to turn your eyes away, you spot what seems to be a hole in the ship plating perhaps fifty meters above the doorway. You suspect you could traverse the pipe system to reach this hole, and perhaps find out what is going on unobserved."

I sat back in my chair, expression neutral, but inwardly I wore a smug smile. I had done everything short of using a giant neon arrow to show the PC's the smart route. Everything was going according to -

"Okay," said Alyxander, the Kill-Team leader. "Braddimus and I will go up the pipes..."

Yes! Just as planned!

"...and Logan and Konrad will go out to confront the heretics as a distraction. Braddimus will leap into the middle of them with his jump-pack, while I use my Stalker-Pattern Boltgun to snipe them from the pipes."

Wait, what?

I fought to keep a smooth face. "Are you sure you want to do that?" Words must have poured from my mouth by rote, because I was too flabbergasted to have formed them consciously.

"Yes," said Alyxander. "Braddimus, do you still have..."

I cut out the rest of their conversation. I didn't have an encounter prepared for this. Frantically I thought back to what I had said. "A massive open area, crisscrossed by pipes. Okay. I started placing map tiles by instinct, eventually ending up with a long hallway with platforms to the sides. "...a stream of heretics..." Hordes? Sure, Hordes should work. Say, four of them, Magnitude 60. "...guarded by several heavy weapon emplacements." Crap. Crap. What kinds of heavy weapons? How many of them? Oh god, they're looking at me. STOP LOOKING AT ME! Okay, okay, you can do this. Um. Say...two Assault Cannons, two Plasma Cannons, and a Lascannon. Yeah, yeah, that sounds good. Put the Assault and Plasma Cannons on the platforms, and the Lascannon off by itself....

--------------------------

All in all, that encounter played out pretty well. The Kill-Team proceeded through with relatively little trouble, since the heretics weren't looking for trouble, and the PCs got a surprise round. Of course, since they made all that noise fighting, the guys in the NEXT room were prepared for them, and our Librarian lost his left arm.

The point being that preparation isn't essential to DM-ing (although it helps a LOT). You need to be able to improvise well enough to make your PCs believe you've got everything under control. DM-ing is, more often than not, a zany ride. Your players will do things you could never have predicted, and you're going to make mistakes. BIG ONES. Admit your mistakes, and learn from them. Remember that, and you'll do well.

Sariusmonk
2011-11-08, 01:10 PM
I loved the example of your thought process. And thanks for the other answers and advice. I think when designing my own encounters tonight, I will try to think up activities where during combat, other things can be happening, to keep not just the ranged people guessing, but everyone.

My players having had no experience are having a hard time adapting from computer games with limits, to pen and paper with no limits. I keep saying "You could push the tables over, or plan a trap" etc.. but all it resorts to is basic attacks.

I'll have to brainstorm some ideas then, or get inspiration from some I find on these forums. Thanks again guys. I'll post back tomorrow after the session with any new experiences that crop up for me that I may need a few questions to assure me of.

NecroRebel
2011-11-08, 01:30 PM
The problem you've noticed with the Slayer... Well, it's generally seen as a problem with the Slayer. They really don't have much to do other than basic attacks every round, with the main real variances being whether they use one of their other powers to enhance it or not.

The Fighter in the original 4e books, which the Slayer is loosely based off of, doesn't have that problem. It gets actual attack powers that do different things. Unfortunately, even if you got one of the books that include Fighter powers, the Slayer couldn't take them because they don't get a choice of what powers to take.

If you continue playing and decide to get one of more of the Player's Handbooks and/or the (power source) Power books (such as Martial Power) and your player complains about not having options, it might be wise to encourage him to play an actual Fighter instead of a Slayer. Actually, just in general players have more options if they play the "real" classes instead of the Essentials variants, but that's just the problem with Essentials.

Eldest
2011-11-08, 02:31 PM
What he's talking about is the Player's Handbook 1-3. It has a different mechanic for classes with a lot of variety, which can be a good thing or a bad thing.

By the way, the idea for the different classes is that the PHB stuff are the classic archtypes like fighter, wizard, rogue, etc. and the Essentials are specialized classes that are sub-types of those archtypes. For example, a Slayer would technically be a Fighter(slayer) because it is a subtype of Fighter.

Mando Knight
2011-11-08, 02:38 PM
Actually, just in general players have more options if they play the "real" classes instead of the Essentials variants, but that's just the problem with Essentials.
Not all of the classes are like that. The Mage in particular... I really like that reinterpretation of the Wizard, and the differences between Arcanist Wizards and Mage Wizards are only a couple of features (School specialization vs Implement specialization and a few extra Ritual-related features), and their power selections are identical (as far as I'm aware, at least).

The martial-based characters, though, do often suffer from that issue, since it's an attempt to win back the people who thought that Fighters getting the same power progression as Wizards was too "magic-y" for a Fighter.

Adoendithas
2011-11-08, 06:44 PM
My solution to the "town" problem was to make a map of a new city, create a bunch of NPC's, and let the PC's explore wherever they wanted. Since every building was mapped out on a paper I gave them, they could go anywhere they wanted.

Of course, it did take six hours, and the town is relatively tiny.

Sariusmonk
2011-11-08, 06:54 PM
That's one question that I have seen on a character sheet but *never* seen in the Essentials books,.. what are "Rituals" and how do the players learn them? Or shall I not worry myself about that?

tcrudisi
2011-11-08, 06:58 PM
That's one question that I have seen on a character sheet but *never* seen in the Essentials books,.. what are "Rituals" and how do the players learn them? Or shall I not worry myself about that?

It either comes as a class feature (wizard, bard, a couple of others) or you can take it as a feat. Once you get Ritual Casting, you can learn various rituals. They basically allow players to break the law of physics outside of combat. Things like summoning a disc that floats behind you and will carry all your stuff, or allowing the players to share healing surges, or allowing the players to breathe under water, or allowing the players to teleport to select locations.

The original feat and rituals are located in the PHB1, though plenty more rituals have shown up since then. Do you need to worry about them? No, not really. But they don't break anything and they are easy enough to implement.

/edit - I feel that all your other questions were answered adequately, so I'll just address the one that I felt wasn't:

But what else can the Slayer be doing on a turn by turn basis beyond his basic attacks?

Someone above mentioned the Fighter. Absolutely. He's run into the "Essentials is great for beginners, but once you know how to play, many people prefer the options that the old 4e classes give" problem.

BUT! There are things he can do to spice up his character. Notably, page 42 of the DMG. ... Crud. You don't have the old DMG. ... Well, page 42 of the DMG basically describes how to use Acrobatics and Athletics in combat to attack things. Swing from a chandelier into the bad guy, bull rush the bad guys head into the wall, and other acrobatic/athletic tricks where the player can do damage in unconvential ways.

It might be covered in the essentials DM Kit; I have no idea.

PrinceOfMadness
2011-11-08, 07:06 PM
They basically allow players to break the law of physics outside of combat....But they don't break anything

Except the laws of physics, apparently :smallamused:

NecroRebel
2011-11-08, 07:17 PM
People tend to avoid using rituals very much, since they each cost gold, take a long time, and usually can have their effect replicated by a mundane skill anyway. They're basically out-of-combat spells that have a much broader range of effect than powers do, but aside from a very few, like Raise Dead which is needed to resurrect the fallen, they're just too expensive and situational to be useful.

Sariusmonk
2011-11-08, 07:23 PM
As luck would have it one of my players (The Slayer) took a particular liking to DnD and has bought the 4e bundle of the Monster Manual 1, DM Guide 1 and Players Handbook 1 on ebay and it arrived today, which he then passed straight over to me, so that's going to be a lot to digest. It may have to wait a week or two though as there's still plenty to keep us all busy for now. I'll mention to them that if they want to take the book and read through it to lighten the load on me, it'll be helpful as the PHB is for them as much as it is for me. I shall check out Page 45 of the DM book to see what it is you mentioned.


Edit:

Wow just wow,.. i've had a skim through the DM Guide and it is *so* more informative and specific than the Essentials DM book. I'm going to have a lot of reading ahead of me. I wonder why the Essentials decides to miss out on so much? Whilst it has been handy to get the bare bones basics, I feel I have missed out on learning other "essentials" ironically.

Eldest
2011-11-08, 08:37 PM
Wow just wow,.. i've had a skim through the DM Guide and it is *so* more informative and specific than the Essentials DM book. I'm going to have a lot of reading ahead of me. I wonder why the Essentials decides to miss out on so much? Whilst it has been handy to get the bare bones basics, I feel I have missed out on learning other "essentials" ironically.

They provided the bare bones (the essentials) to start playing, but yes the other stuff is far better. The player classes are similarly fleshed out so you feel like you have a lot more options, although a complete newbie could feel like (s)he is drowning in info.

tcrudisi
2011-11-08, 09:30 PM
Also, I mentioned page 42 of the DMG for its awesomeness. Do note that those numbers have been errata'ed once or twice (or three or four times). If you only look up one piece of errata, that would be it. Heck, that might even be in the essentials DM Kit, I'm not sure. I do know that having the proper skill dc's very important. I would argue it is the single most important piece of errata.

Sariusmonk
2011-11-09, 08:37 AM
Where do you go to check up on fix's like this? I have the DM screen that came with the DM Kit (essentials) and that has skill DC's and related things on that, I do hope they're not in need of updating as the screen is very convinient as it is.

Adoendithas
2011-11-09, 08:57 AM
Go to wizards.com/dnd and there should be a link called "Rules Updates".

Mando Knight
2011-11-09, 12:15 PM
Where do you go to check up on fix's like this? I have the DM screen that came with the DM Kit (essentials) and that has skill DC's and related things on that, I do hope they're not in need of updating as the screen is very convinient as it is.

If the screen came with an Essentials kit, it should be updated already, since those changes were well over a year ago.

some guy
2011-11-09, 06:26 PM
My players having had no experience are having a hard time adapting from computer games with limits, to pen and paper with no limits. I keep saying "You could push the tables over, or plan a trap" etc.. but all it resorts to is basic attacks.

Let their enemies use those things. Let enemies disarm them, upturn the tables, let them flee, let kobolds throw sand in their eyes, let goblins throw buckets of sticky grease at them and them setting them ablaze, let them use interesting, strange ways of attacking. Your players will be like "Wait, they can do that?" and then you will all be like "Yeah, and you can do that too." EDIT: And then there will be high-fives all around.

Adoendithas
2011-11-09, 09:04 PM
My favorite trap to run was a turkey leg dangling from a hole in the ceiling. The Warden grabbed the rope and pulled on it. A goblin fell out of the hole and died from the fall damage. Totally ineffectual, but funny and helped the PCs think more creatively.

Sariusmonk
2011-11-10, 02:39 AM
And then there will be high-fives all around.

Nice :P

Ran the session last night, DM'ing the town (though in game time it was late at night) so they only explored Taverns. It kind of worked.

They spared a Doppelganger's life (in "The Red Box" you'll know the one I mean) but they treated it like a piece of dirt, but spared it's life.

So I had it take the guise of a guard, and when they entered the town (after a stern warning about behaviour at the gates, since one is a drow,.. again, we're all amateurs to this, but trying our best, but it's probably a lot more relaxed than an experienced DM would have handled it) the doppelganger waited inside the town walls and called the PC's over. Made up a rule saying how the Lowertown area has had civil unrest and that carrying weapons during this time is prohibited and told the players to turn in their weapons.

They did so, reluctantly, and continued to explore the town for some time. After finding the NPC they were looking for, I forget how, but very naturally the mention of their weapons came up and I had the NPC say "There's no such restriction on carrying weapons within the walls" and the PC's ran out to confront the troublesome guard, only to find a note from the Doppelganger explaining how they should be mindful of how they treat others.

They took it on themselves to try and find the Doppelganger, so I allowed it to be done as a skill challenge, they used streetwise to ask witnesses, tracked footprints to a shady area until they got muddled with others, succeeded on a high insight check in a shady tavern and found "a doppelganger" amongst a crowd, intimidated this Doppelganger and found out it was not the one they were after but could take them to him/her. Which all in all went quite well, then they unarmed, snook in to the Doppelganger's hideout, got a surprise round, mage caused carnage and they retrieved weapons.

All in all it went okay,.. I mentioned "shopping" can be done between sessions, and will be briefly explained next session, and that the NPC they had met with who requested their service to escort him to Winterhaven will be waiting at the start of the next session.

There's areas to improve, but it went okay, they seemed happy enough. There's areas I need to encourage them to play / think, and I think they're learning they can do what they like, and i'll start to say "Yes and..." within reason.

I'm having a bit of an issue at the moment with the dynamic of the group in that, the "Drow" player is taking a lot of the limelight and focus and dominating actions, while the other players take a backbench. I give each one opportunity to step up and shine but they make a single decision then slip back into group play, which quickly leads to Drow leading.

There was also a point where one player decided they'd like their character to get drunk while another wanted to find Traevus (the NPC) so out of character the one wanting to find the NPC told the other to "stop wasting time". I've said that any RP is not time wasting and that within the town you did not have to "stick together" but even then, I don't really know how to handle this situation.

Again thanks for the responses to other stuff, it's a good way to learn to actually talk to experienced players / DM's.

Wildefox
2011-11-16, 12:13 AM
I want to give you some advice.

A good DM is just someone trying the hardest they can.

From what you've posted, it seems like you're really putting a lot of work into this. I think you might be a pretty good DM already. Just keep doing what you're doing, exploring the material and asking questions. Anytime you meet a DM who claims they always know what's going on and everything goes according to plan, just walk away. Not worth the time to listen to. More often than not we're making it up as we go along and hoping nobody notices. And you know what? That's okay. People seem to be answering your questions pretty well, so I'm just going to give you a couple tips I've learned that might help with a "fresh" group. This is my opinion, based on how I play my games, so feel free to reject or change anything to suit your needs.

Your players are your friends. Never forget this. Yes, you play the bad guy. Yes, you represent the opposing force. Yes, you will have to make rulings they don't like. It's a tough job. But don't let yourself become the bad guy. Far too many DMs get into this adversarial mindset, where they seem to think their job is to rack up as many kills as possible. Remember why you're doing this: to have a good time. You are the facilitator of fun. Sometimes people have to suffer before they get the prize, but in the end you win by having everyone walk away grinning and pumped for the next session.

You don't have to be right all the time. You do have to be fair, and you do have to aim for as much consistency as possible, and unless everyone agrees on a specific exception you do have to know and follow the rules. But people make mistakes! So will you. When you catch a bad DM making a mistake they get defensive or hostile. They remind you that they make the rules and what they say goes (technically true). They may even threaten your character. Don't do that. When you eventually make a mistake (and you will) and when a player calls you out on it (and they so will), simply take it in stride. Thank them for pointing it out, look it up to make sure they are in fact correct, then let them know that from that point on you will endeavour to use the correct rule. Make the player who told you that you were wrong feels appreciated for doing something that will eventually enhance everyone's game.

Don't debate. It wastes everyone's time, and it engenders the wrong atmosphere. If you have a disagreement with a player that cannot be solved by simply looking at the rules, politely and firmly state what your position is and that for the session it will simply have to stand but afterwards you will discuss it with them. Then do so. Always, always do so. Listen more than you talk. Take notes if it is elaborate or technical. Make sure you understand their viewpoint. Then think about it. Ask the forums for advice. Thoroughly investigate what they have to say. At the start of the next session, state your decision, explain why you arrived at it, and lastly emphasize that there will be no further argument on the matter unless compelling new evidence can be presented.

Encourage discussion. I start every gaming session I ever run with a brief friendly chat about the game. (this comes after the brief friendly chat about pretty much anything...) This is a great time for your players to give comments and feedback as well as voice concerns. Quite recently I had an amazing idea for a killer mechanic that was going to jazz up the game. During our chat I explained how it worked and three players told me straight up that it would severely diminish their enjoyment. The idea was scrapped instantly. If I didn't talk to my players, and if they weren't comfortable being honest with me, we would have spent several sessions doing something they apparently would have hated.

and lastly,

Have fun. And make sure everyone else is having fun too. That's the whole freaking point of the game. It's not to kill monsters. It's to enjoy killing monsters. As long as you and your friends are sitting down every week and having a blast, it doesn't matter if you don't have the latest errata. It doesn't matter if you aren't following the planned course. It doesn't matter if your damage per round is low, your healer isn't optimized, and your defender isn't sure how to mark. You're still playing the game right.

tcrudisi
2011-11-16, 12:42 AM
everything

+1. I can say those are the rules that I try to go by. In combat, I'll do my best to make it as challenging as possible (within the rules, of course), but when the players are successful or do something awesome, I'll high-five them. I want them to win, but I want to make it a challenge.

There will come a time when you don't know the rules. Something will happen, the players will look to you for advise, and ... nothing. Who the heck knows? At this point, you have two options. 1) Look up the rules. 2) Make a ruling on the fly.

Personally, I prefer option 2. Looking up the rules can take a really long time, especially if its a weird situation. However, if it's something that I know I can find within 30 seconds, I'll do it. But if I even think that it might possibly eventually perhaps maybe take more than 30 seconds, I'll tell the players, "I'm ruling it this way as it seems the fairest to me. Remind me about it at the end of the session and we'll see just how wrong I was, but I don't want to waste the time looking it up. If I'm incorrect with my ruling and it hurts your character, I apologize."

This also usually helps hedge off the "don't debate" point that Wildefox made. They know that I tried to make as fair as ruling as possible, and all my players know that they can debate with me after the game. I try to run RAW as strictly as possible which helps me when it comes to debates. I can simply point to the page and say, "See? You can shoot yourself with an arrow."

Starscythe
2011-11-16, 06:11 AM
Earlier you asked about how to get ranged characters out of a doorway and acting like stationary weapons turrets? simple: sticky alchemist fire. its exactly like alchemist fire (thrown weapon, burst 1 in range 5, 1d6 damage IIRC) but the fire stays in those squares until they put out the fire by throwing dirt on it to smother it (water will just spread it around more) and if it actually hits the person, then ongoing damage comes in. you could even force them to spend a standard action to stop, drop, and roll before they can attempt to make a saving throw. Have the local thieves' guild send someone to get there attention, then run into a building that is a trap (5 PCs and 5 enemies in a 3x4 square shed, and the door gets locked from the outside when the last PC comes in) have the enemies hide around a corner. Have the enemies attack from two directions at once. these are all good ways to get people to not stand in the doorway. in a forest, you can just have people constantly ducking around trees and LoSing the parties ranged characters.

and if you want your players to learn to upturn tables, swing from chandeliers, just have the bad guys use those tactics first. at first your players will say how its not fair, you're out to get them etc. but if you aren't those things and just trying to make things challenging the usual responce will just be "hey, lets do to them what they did to us last time, but i've got an idea how to do it better!" and do silly things like make ghillie suits to set up ambushes for the highwaymen, swing from TWO chandeliers, or whatever

spitflame341
2011-11-16, 01:58 PM
I started DMing with 4e and so I can really relate to where you're coming from. You've asked a lot of questions and gotten a lot of answers (and this is a dense thread with a lot to read through), so mostly I'll just hand out some general advice and answers for some of the questions that really stuck out for me.

In general, the easiest thing to forget as a DM is that you are also playing the game. A lot of DMs I've met tend to get so wrapped up in trying to remember all of the rules and making sure there are contingencies for everything that they forget that it's all a game, and more importantly, a cooperative one. You don't have to do everything yourself. I find that giving the players responsibilities helps keep them involved and gives you breathing room to have fun. My first piece of advice is to let them manage their characters - have them research their magic items and all you have to do is approve. Just tell them when they've found something in a dungeon and have them get lists of items for when they're in town, then just ok their item pick. Also, they know character creation rules and it's easy to see when they're breaking them - they can level their own characters. If you feel you need to, double check their work, but other than that, you've got the adventure to worry about, let them worry about their character.

Talk to them. See what they're interested in doing. In addition to making sure you're all getting what you want out of the game, it narrows what you have to research, and gives you ideas on where to take the game eventually.

I saw earlier you were having trouble with character interactions in combat (the slayer just BMAs and the wizard just MMs from a distance). Encourage skill use. If you have the DM screen, it has a table on one of the middle panels for DCs at various levels. Encourage your players to think of crazy things to do, decide on an applicable skill, and let them go nuts. The slayer doesn't just use a BMA, he launches off the wall (moderate athletics), flips over the enemy (moderate acrobatics to stick the landing), leg sweeps the creature (athletics vs FORT just like a grapple), and then stabs him through the chest as he hits the ground (BMA). That was probably a Move (jump and flip), maybe a Move again (leg sweep), and Standard action, so he'd have to use an action point, but it gets him to be creative and gives an awesome visual to the rest of the players.

That wizard in the back? Well, she just shot an ogre, and he didn't like it. He can't get to her directly, but there's this goblin scurrying around right next to him and he looks like he can fly pretty well. Have the ogre throw stuff at the wizard, and suddenly she becomes a target and needs to get involved. Maybe there was a goblin that no one saw and he snuck up behind her. As far as giving the wizard options - that ogre is sitting beneath a couple of stalactites (i think that's the ceiling one...). Your Wizard is trained in Dungeoneering, so she examines the 'tites (dungeoneering check) for weaknesses. Finding one she shoots it and breaks it from the ceiling, where it crashes down straight onto the ogre (probably a d10, i'd give it brutal and maybe it dazes him). She then detects a hint of magic and meditates on it further (arcana) and finds that there is a volatile field of natural magic flowing through this cave. With a bit of manipulation (arcana, standard action) she tears it apart, causing an explosion right behind the dazed ogre (blast 3, INT vs REF, 1d10 + 2 force damage).

The biggest thing you can do to involve players is to reward them for thinking outside the box. Improvisation is the spice of D&D, from both the players and the DM.

Looking back at this post, I kind of tangented, so I apologize for that. One last piece of advice though:

If you and your players run into something that you're not sure about - make a ruling. Put it to a vote. Get a quick solution and get on with the game. The important thing is to have fun. If you're really worried about it, look it up after the game, but just make sure that the game keeps going. And most importantly, if there's something that you and your players don't like, don't use it. WotC isn't going to come to your door and sue you for playing their game "wrong." Just have fun.

Eldest
2011-11-16, 02:48 PM
You could have the orge throw the goblin. [shrug]
Think you need any more advice?

Sariusmonk
2011-11-19, 01:31 PM
Read all the posts, and I'm definately going to find more creative ways to get people moving around. So far I've managed to get the hunter "moving about" yet the Wizard and Slayer still do basic actions. But we've only had 1 encounter since last so it's fine, I'll have room to improve that once they face more enemies.

The advice is really solid. I haven't had to worry too much about rules because when there's something I don't know, I just "houserule" it for the moment we're in, and tell them at the start of the next session that I did that because I didn't know, and clarify the rule because I will have read up on it. None of them know the rules "that well" that they'd call me out, and even if they did, I think they'd rather keep playing and going.

Hmmm,.. I'll bring up two things that have been a slight concern / things I still struggle with;

1. Planning, again, I don't want to take forever planning, but, it's hard. When I planned their time in Fallcrest, it lasted an entire session, and all they did was go to two taverns and fight an encounter I hadn't "planned" which they steamrolled over. Wasn't too big an issue since it was their first encounter since hitting level 2, maybe it just let them "feel" more powerful. But the session after that, they escorted a Dwarf to Winterhaven, they got ambushed, had their fight and continued to the town. I was totally unprepared for the town, and so the descriptive language just left me, and it ended up flavourless (argh!) but they got a quick description of the area, it being cold, and what kind of buildings they could find. I need to find that balance on planning, planning encounters I can throw at them and "why" and how to make a town feel alive without having to write 8 page word documents of notes for myself. Again, I suppose time will improve this, but,.. any advice on how to "do things on the fly" would be good. I know everyone says a lot is made up, but where do you get your inspiration? How do you know you wont lead yourself into a dead end / end up with nothing happening?

2. The Drow player (Slayer) - I'm trying to make Drow feared by the world so his character usually gets met with a hostile attitude from NPC's, and he's playing himself as a sort of "lone ranger" a character who "doesn't want help from anyone, and doesn't need friends" - While the rest of the group are working together / being friendly to NPC's / each other, he is being very quiet during dialogue, and when I prompt him for dialogue or engage him directly, he has very few words and all of like,.. distaste for the world etc.. (I guess he's playing well, cuz he's a nice guy in person) - but he isn't enjoying any dialogue or stuff like that, he enjoys the combat (despite only using "stab in the face (BMA) every turn lol) - But I want to know how I should let his character be reacted to in the world? It's already established most fear him, but he usually gets into towns with a watchful eye,... yet he doesn't try to earn any favour with his group. I encourage group discussion, especially during travel e.g

"You travelled for 5 days from Fallcrest to Winterhaven, during which you each got to know each other a little better,.. I would like you each to ask one question to each other and find something out about them you'd like to know"

I did this because I hadn't had much planned or prepared, and two of the players really loved this, making their own interactions, actually creating backstory which gave them a sense time had passed and conversations had happened, but also "revealing" things. Yet again, the Drow when asked, refused to answer, or had a mean comeback. As much as I say "in this world, a Drow on the surface needs to impress those around him to survive" he's convinced he's fine on his own. I need to make him "want" the group, and "want" to help, but I don't know how. He just wants to fight.

PrinceOfMadness
2011-11-19, 02:22 PM
If you want to be prepared for future towns, what you might try is taking (or making!) a map of the area, then write up a short (no more than a paragraph) description of each point of interest. Example:

As you walk past the gate guards, you get your first good look at the village of Windcrest. A light coating of snow covers everything, giving it a picturesque quality. To the left, you can see a blacksmith toiling in his smithy, and to the right you can hear shouts of laughter coming from the Spring Hare, the apparent inn. In front of you there is a large statue of a man holding a book, and at the feet of the statue a crowd of people has gathered with torches and weapons.

I just made all that up off the top of my head, 5 minutes tops. With a little preparation you can have something that works out better for you. Do keep in mind that this is one of those things that practice makes perfect. With that being said, if you "know" your PCs are going to be visiting another town prior to the session start, feel free to write up a more detailed description of that town.

I'll let a "people person" handle the drow question, but it looks to me like your drow is either roleplaying what he sincerely believes to be an accurate representation of his character, or else roleplaying as Chaotic Stupid.

Wildefox
2011-11-19, 03:24 PM
2. The Drow player (Slayer) - I'm trying to make Drow feared by the world so his character usually gets met with a hostile attitude from NPC's, and he's playing himself as a sort of "lone ranger" a character who "doesn't want help from anyone, and doesn't need friends" - While the rest of the group are working together / being friendly to NPC's / each other, he is being very quiet during dialogue, and when I prompt him for dialogue or engage him directly, he has very few words and all of like,.. distaste for the world etc.. (I guess he's playing well, cuz he's a nice guy in person) - but he isn't enjoying any dialogue or stuff like that, he enjoys the combat (despite only using "stab in the face (BMA) every turn lol) - But I want to know how I should let his character be reacted to in the world? It's already established most fear him, but he usually gets into towns with a watchful eye,... yet he doesn't try to earn any favour with his group. I encourage group discussion, especially during travel e.g

"You travelled for 5 days from Fallcrest to Winterhaven, during which you each got to know each other a little better,.. I would like you each to ask one question to each other and find something out about them you'd like to know"

I did this because I hadn't had much planned or prepared, and two of the players really loved this, making their own interactions, actually creating backstory which gave them a sense time had passed and conversations had happened, but also "revealing" things. Yet again, the Drow when asked, refused to answer, or had a mean comeback. As much as I say "in this world, a Drow on the surface needs to impress those around him to survive" he's convinced he's fine on his own. I need to make him "want" the group, and "want" to help, but I don't know how. He just wants to fight.

A couple things. First, you can't really force a player to do anything. If a player isn't good at character optimization, you can't really push them into min/maxing and expect them to enjoy it. You can try and encourage roleplay, and it looks like you are, but you can't actually make him play his character a certain way without ruining the fun for both of you.

Second: you let him play a Drow. I know you're new at this, and you're still learning, but if you okay a certain race you are usually also okaying the behaviour that goes with it unless you expressly sat down with the player at character creation and told him that if he was going to play a Drow he had to compromise and be a "team player" Drow. If a player asks me to play a goblin and I say yes, I am as responsible as he is when he does all kinds of game disrupting stuff because "that's what a goblin would do".

If you did have that conversation, remind him what he agreed to and that he is not following it. If you didn't, you honestly can't get mad at him for acting the way he is. Because most surface Drow are withdrawn, sneering, antagonistic jerks. He can say that he is just roleplaying his character, and he would have a valid point.

That all being said, there are ways to bring a lone wolf back into the fold. Most of them are pretty tricky, and a lot are highly situational on what the player (note I said player, not character) is like. Can you tell us more about him?

Sariusmonk
2011-11-19, 07:26 PM
Hmmm well about him, I don't know all too much;

The team is this;

My girlfriend - Eladrin Wizard

My younger brother - Dwarf Hunter

My sister - Dwarf Warpriest

My sister's boyfriend - Drow Slayer


He's very, hmmm... smart, likes to make jokes, big computer nerd and loves painting mini's and playing wargames. Loves video games. As a person he's easy enough to get on with but he has very strong opinions and not easy to persuade around to a differing view on things.


The reason I let him pick a Drow was because we're using the 4th Edition "Essentials" books - and in the second one Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms it lists Drow as one of the races. If it wasn't listed I wouldn't have let him be something else, like a Goblin, because it's not in the books we had at the time, and the description for the Drow in the essentials said that any "surface drow" try to earn the liking / favour of their companions else they end up unwanted on the surface and in the underdark.

Mando Knight
2011-11-19, 07:41 PM
Dealing with Drow: read this game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141355). DM cleverly introduces the Drow, who properly joins the party in the second act. Due to the number of other fey on the team, he slowly begins to turn against his dark mistresses. And they, in turn, continue to push down on him with their spike-heeled leather boots.

Fallbot
2011-11-20, 07:49 AM
If he’s being a jerk, then have NPCs react to it realistically. Obviously it’s up to the other players what they do, but it’s perfectly fair for their characters to do the same. If roleplaying doesn’t bother him, then maybe it comes across in combat – who are you going to focus on keeping alive and well buffed? Your best friend and comrade who you know will have your back in turn, or that creepy, jerkish dark elf that you don’t like and don’t trust, who has made it quite clear that the feeling is mutual?

I did the same thing with a drow PC, who was awkward, standoffish and lied to the rest of the party about his involvement in events that were going down in the campaign. And when they found out what he'd been doing, the other PCs called him out on his bull****. They stopped trusting him, stopped putting up with his awkwardness and secrets, and kept a very close eye on him. He wasn’t exactly a fan of this treatment and quickly realised that, just walking away not being an option, he was going to have to start being more of a team player and less of a jerk, and character development ensued.

Disclaimer; only let this happen if you think the players are mature enough to roleplay it, otherwise there may be sulking and hurt feelings. If you don’t want to handle it in game then either leave it – if he wants to miss out on roleplay and party interaction then that’s his business, and as long as he’s not hurting the others' fun then just leave him to it – or, if it’s genuinely bothering you, talk to him about it outside the game. Explain how awkward and difficult he is making things and ask him to tone things down. If he’s as nice a guy as you say then this shouldn’t be a problem.

Eldest
2011-11-20, 08:52 AM
One possibility is having an NPC that is only there for a session treat the Drow with respect. Maybe he has seen what the Drow has to go through and is giving him the benefit of the doubt. Then have that NPC work with the Drow to do different things, or maybe have the NPC defend the Drow to some skeptics in the town while within the Drow's earshot. Basically show some of the advantages of being friendly.

Wildefox
2011-11-20, 12:40 PM
He's very, hmmm... smart, likes to make jokes, big computer nerd and loves painting mini's and playing wargames. Loves video games. As a person he's easy enough to get on with but he has very strong opinions and not easy to persuade around to a differing view on things.

Okay, sounds like he's not going to flip out and smash the table then. That's a big +5.



The reason I let him pick a Drow was because we're using the 4th Edition "Essentials" books - and in the second one Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms it lists Drow as one of the races. If it wasn't listed I wouldn't have let him be something else, like a Goblin, because it's not in the books we had at the time, and the description for the Drow in the essentials said that any "surface drow" try to earn the liking / favour of their companions else they end up unwanted on the surface and in the underdark.

Then you've got two choices. Choice 1) Let him play the Drow the way he wants to. If it is not breaking your game, if it is not getting you into unnecessary fights, if it is not straight up ruining the party dynamic, this is what I would go with. Sometimes not everyone is one big happy family. Kinda sucks, but it happens. You roll with it. As they adventure together, they will become more close knit. Try and set up situations where the Drow needs help from the party, but more importantly vice versa. A good way to bring a loner into the group is not to show that he needs the group, but that the group needs him. It makes him feel important, and wanted. If he just leaves the party alone to their fate, well, then you have a more serious problem.

To illustrate, I don't allow party killing in my groups. Just straight up can't do it. There have been times when they have wanted to, but I just say "Tough. In my game, it doesn't happen. Think of a way to roleplay around it." You may have to say something similar about group play. If it helps, tell him he can be Wolverine. Wolverine is a badass. Wolverine don't need nobody else. Wolverine likes to do his own thing. And that's fine. But when Professor X says "It's go time" he slips on that yellow suit and falls into formation. Growling and grumbling, sure, but he does it. Let him roleplay his lone wolf as long as it doesn't interfere with actual group dynamics.

Choice 2) is a little more draconian. You're going to need to put on your big DM hat. I never enjoy doing this, but sometimes you have to. I want to stress you should only do this if you feel you have to, because there will be some bruised feelings.

Point out what it says in your essentials handbook. Tell him if he is going to play a surface Drow he needs to follow these guidelines. Tell him this is not a discussion. Inform him this is a team sport, and a team needs to work together. If he would like to continue playing a Drow, he needs to take these words to heart. If he feels this no longer works for him, he can roll a new character.

Ouch. I know. You will feel a bit like a bitch for days. He will likely not be happy. Sounds like a decent guy though and he will probably get over it. Still, not exactly a happy ending for anyone, which brings me to my final point:

Does it really matter?

Players will not roleplay how you want/expect them to. This is a problem when it breaks your game. When it just inconveniences you, when it is just not what you thought would happen, when it just doesn't mesh with your grand vision of the party - then the player is just exercising free will. Part of the fun of an RPG is being someone totally different, and exploring cool and interesting options. Take that away from your players at your peril.

If the problem is just that he doesn't like to talk much, or interact with other party members, or doesn't seem eager to "prove himself" to anyone - so what?

If someone punches the Wizard right in front of him, will he draw his blade? If he overhears a plot to poison the Dwarves that night, does he warn them? When push comes to shove, is he standing there next to you? If the answer to those questions is "Yes", you don't actually have a problem. As long as he is contributing to your party and not actively harming you, let him roleplay how he wants. After all, that is what roleplay is all about.

It's your job to make sure all your players have fun. If he is doing things (stealing from the party, killing PCs, tipping off bad guys) that actually reduce the amount of fun everyone else is having, yeah, that's a problem. But if he is just being sullen and withdrawn, he is just being sullen and withdrawn! It's not a crime! The other players can still have fun, and he can have fun doing what he wants to do.

Sariusmonk
2011-11-20, 01:22 PM
Hmmm some good things to read about that,.. I'm fine letting him be that way for now, I keep hoping he'll "warm to the party" because we plan to make this the big level 1-30 campaign and I hope they end up feeling like a close knit group who *want* to stay together, because I don't know why in game terms the other party members would keep him around, or why he follows them on their quest?

But it's fine, he can keep going as is. I should find out how he'd react to some of those scenario's thats quite interesting.

When you said about him stealing, he hasn't done that though I think he wants to. One thing that is slightly frustrating is that the party were making a "Group contract" in regarding loot. 3 of them were happy to split it evenly. Drow of course, wanted what he earned and not to share his loot. So after every encounter we have a rush of
"I loot X" between the group,.. and it is really frustrating for me, because I can't let him not have anything, but I don't want him to get everything either.

What should I do with that?

Adoendithas
2011-11-20, 01:40 PM
A possible solution to that would be to have something like this:

The monsters in the encounter (goblinoids of some sort? fey connection?) hate Drow and underdark monsters so much, they have a spell on everything they carry. It slowly crumbles into worthless dust if an underdark creature touches it.

After an extended rest it's gone.

A possible reason for the drow not to take all the gold for himself from now on.

Fallbot
2011-11-20, 01:58 PM
Do the rest of the group really put up with that? I can't imagine they will for long...

Give items that are geared to be most useful to the other party members; weapons/implements he doesn't specialize in, residuum instead of gold, items that improve healing powers or summons, or whatever abilities the other party members have and he hasn't, etc.

If he still takes them, I imagine the other players will call him on it. If they don't then ask him nicely, outside of the game, to stop being such a ****. Being standoffish in character is fine, but taking others' loot will actively hurt their fun and isn't acceptable (unless it's that kind of game, though clearly this one isn't).

Wildefox
2011-11-20, 08:24 PM
When you said about him stealing, he hasn't done that though I think he wants to. One thing that is slightly frustrating is that the party were making a "Group contract" in regarding loot. 3 of them were happy to split it evenly. Drow of course, wanted what he earned and not to share his loot. So after every encounter we have a rush of
"I loot X" between the group,.. and it is really frustrating for me, because I can't let him not have anything, but I don't want him to get everything either.

What should I do with that?

Items and weapons should go according to class, and you should endeavour to make sure they are handed out equally. Gold should be automatically distributed amongst everybody. It doesn't matter if there is no "in-game explanation", tell them that's just how it works. Too many arguments happen at the table about loot distribution, things go smoother if you take it out of their hands.