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gooddragon1
2011-11-09, 01:43 AM
Grimmjow Jaegerjaques (http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Grimmjow_Jaegerjaquez) vs Sephiroth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephiroth_%28Final_Fantasy%29)
-All abilities they ever had access to on their own (no tag teaming)
-My favorite environment for this: A barren desert of cracked earth (dirt infinitely below and sky infinitely above).
-To the death fight.

Any more specifications needed?

Who would win?

Fan
2011-11-09, 02:36 AM
Grimmjow Jaegerjaques (http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Grimmjow_Jaegerjaquez) vs Sephiroth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephiroth_%28Final_Fantasy%29)
-All abilities they ever had access to on their own (no tag teaming)
-My favorite environment for this: A barren desert of cracked earth (dirt infinitely below and sky infinitely above).
-To the death fight.

Any more specifications needed?

Who would win?

Sephiroth --> Supernova.

End.

Alternatively since they are roughly physically on par (though I MIGHT give Seph the edge.), and both have weird indescribable flight abilities that operate at speeds faster than most conventional aircraft fly at.

I give it to the guy who can bring himself back from the dead.

Final Attack --> Phoenix.

You can basically never die. Ever.

He gets access to materia in Advent Children, and has excess enough of it in the original series that he can PELT people with it. He does this.

Traab
2011-11-09, 07:26 AM
Yeah.... im not sure we should count supernova, considering the rather psychotic way its setup. I mean, he manages to blow up the sun, and engulf mercury venus, and just enough of earth to obliterate his enemies, but stop 5 feet short of him? And the earth is still somehow there afterwards? Im sorry, but you cant stand 5 feet from the leading edge of a supernova and be ok. A PLANET cant be 5 feet from the leading edge of a supernova and be ok. The whole world would have ignited into flames well before you reached that point.

Mixt
2011-11-09, 07:32 AM
Let's analyze Sephiroth's power level for a moment.

1: Flare, one of the high-end spells, is basically a miniature sun/contained nuclear explosion.

2: Bahamut, god of dragonkind has MEGAflare breath, and that's the weakest version of him.

3: According to Word Of God the strenght of the five different versions of Bahamut goes like this, from weakest to strongest: Bahamut, Neo Bahamut, Bahamut Zero, Bahamut Fury, Bahamut SIN.

4: Take a look at what Bahamut Fury can do (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8VwaEv3z1M)
That's right, it can pull you into a alternate dimension, then blow up the damn moon and turn it into a superlaser.

5: When the strongest version of Bahamut goes up against Cloud, this happens. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYmlJoCk7uU&feature=related)
Note how Cloud went right through the center of a Flare that is stated to be more powerful than a attack that can blow up the damn moon.
And came out unharmed.
And this was while he was still infected with the Geostigma.

6: The final battle against Sephiroth, fun fact, that isn't even the full Sephiroth, it's an Avatar, a small portion of Sephiroth possessing Kadaj.
And even though he's only at a fraction of his full power the entire battle is basically one long curbstomp.
And Cloud has been cured at this point.

The only reason he lost was because the new and improved Omnislash took him by surprise and destroyed the host body he was using to anchor himself to the physical world (Sephiroth could take it, Kadaj could not)

Another fun fact, those dark clouds Sephiroth summons at the start of the battle is actually another part of him, specifically the lifestream of everyone killed by the Geostigma, allowing Sephiroth to basically eat their souls.

Just look, Cloud is so outmatched it's not even funny. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqMJYpdK56A)

Sephiroth isn't even trying, he's intentionally dragging the battle out to cause as much pain and misery as possible, ignoring several opportunites to kill Cloud in favor of torturing him instead.

If that's just the Avatar, what would the full Sephiroth be like if he were able to manifest directly like he did in the game? :smalleek:

Heck, it's implied that just the Avatar is enough to tear the planet out of orbit and turn it into his personal spaceship like he intends, and that he's only holding off on doing so because he really really hates Cloud and wants to torment him first.

Thank gods Aeris, Zack and the rest of the lifestream is doing all they can to restrain him, severely limiting how much of his power Sephiroth can actually use.
But take that restraint away, even for a moment :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

So what does this tell us about Sephiroth's power levels by the time of Advent Children?

EDIT: Supernova is a extremely potent illusion/Psychic projection.
It may not be real, but it damn well can still hurt you (It's main purpose is actually to intimidate, it's Sephiroth's way of saying "I Am God" without speaking)

Traab
2011-11-09, 08:11 AM
EDIT: Supernova is a extremely potent illusion/Psychic projection.
It may not be real, but it damn well can still hurt you (It's main purpose is actually to intimidate, it's Sephiroth's way of saying "I Am God" without speaking)

That I could buy. And yeah, from everything ive heard about advent children sephiroth, there really isnt a comparison short of drills that pierce the heavens that could put up a fight against a fully unleashed version of sephy.

*EDIT* If this was ff7 sephiroth before the whole lifestream crap got started, back when cloud was giving us that long ass flashback of him and sephy fighting side by side, then it would be a reasonable matchup. He was super strong and tough yes, but not, "Im gonna turn the planet into a spaceship" obscenely strong.

Fan
2011-11-09, 08:36 AM
Actually, before that he was just as strong.

See: Crisis Core.

They threw around small stars as part of training exercises. That is what Flare (the spell, also known as NUKE.) is, regularly conduct battles with swords that well..

See this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6ZaSipHuO4&feature=related).

And that's not even him caring, that's him casually swinging his sword one handed with a bit of mild interest.

Mixt
2011-11-09, 09:01 AM
Yeah, he was strong as hell even before dying.

But after his death...

Let's make a analogy here.
Take a look at Alma from the F.E.A.R series, an extremely power psychic in life, dying and becoming a psychic ghost made her a thousand times worse, to the point of actually warping reality.

Sephiroth's death had a similiar effect on him, between permanently merging with Jenova and spending five years floating in the lifestream with direct access to the knowledge, experience and memories of everything that has ever lived, as well as being, you know, a psychic ghost possessing the still living remains of an Eldritch Abomination...

That access to all that knowledge is also why he knows so much more than anyone else.
Also, think about this, Materia is crystalized lifestream containing the knowledge of the ancients, it is this knowledge that allows you to use magic.
Sephiroth spent five years floating in this before he decided to possess Jenova and turn the Shinra building into a slaughterhouse...
Result, after dying Sephiroth is now capable of casting magic without materia, though Meteor is so powerful that he still needs the Black Materia as a focus to cast it, lesser spells are free game though.

And then he goes and holds off the planet's ultimate defense mechanism and fights the party at the same time.

Yeah, ouch. And we are still within the game's timeframe here.

Then Advent Children happens, giving him even more power as he outright absorbs the souls of millions of people, everyone killed by the Geostigma becomes a part of him.

Geostigma, global pandemic with a 100% mortality rate. Has been going on for 2 years.
That's a lot of dead people, and as such a lot of lifestream.

And just to make matters worse, Jenova's cells are now spread all across the globe, effectively giving Sephiroth global omnipresence since he is aware of everything going on in the cells immediate surroundings.

To elaborate, when you defeat Jenova Synthesis directly before fighting Sephiroth at the end of the game, she breaks down into countless individual cells and disperses into the Lifestream.
Then, when the Lifestream appears to help destroy Meteor during the end scene, those cells are dumped absolutely everywhere, including inside people's bodies, the presence of these Jenova cells is what causes the Geostigma.
And then Sephiroth eats your soul once the Geostigma inevitably kills you.

For the record, Geostigma is often described as "Magical super cancer" and "Magical super AIDS" combined into one horrifying potentially world ending disease.

Traab
2011-11-09, 09:03 AM
Yeah, and grim has that gran ray cero attack that can do massive damage to las noches, and that isnt even his ultimate attack. Im just saying that the battle lines are a lot closer in the pre lifestream sephiroth. Grim is insanely strong, insanely fast, has an incredibly hard body, great skills with his sword, and a number of incredibly damaging attacks. I dunno who would win in that case. But at least it would be a fight. Comparing post lifestream sephi with grim is like comparing ME to grim and asking who would win. Who the heck do you THINK?! me of course.

Mixt
2011-11-09, 09:49 AM
Hmm, though i do wonder how Grimmjow would react towards facing an opponent that could destroy the world at a whim.

Possible reactions if confronted by Advent Children Sephiroth?

Provided that Sephiroth gives him enough time to realize the situation before getting bored with playing around and decides to end it.

Traab
2011-11-09, 09:57 AM
Hmm, though i do wonder how Grimmjow would react towards facing an opponent that could destroy the world at a whim.

Possible reactions if confronted by Advent Children Sephiroth?

Provided that Sephiroth gives him enough time to realize the situation before getting bored with playing around and decides to end it.

Reaction? "Yes boss, whatever you say boss. Please dont obliterate me boss." I mean really, I dont think even grim could manage to be less than polite to someone with that level of sheer power.

DiscipleofBob
2011-11-09, 10:11 AM
<= not buying it.

Every Sephiroth I've seen in both the games and Advent Children was a pushover. ANY character can beat Sephiroth in any form with decent materia and/or limit break, something that you can't do against Ruby and Emerald Weapon for example. Even KH Sephiroth was easy once you got the rhythm of his attacks down.

Could Grimmjow beat him? Well, I don't think he has materia, and I'm not sure if he has anything that would count as a limit break. But I'm rooting for him regardless on principle alone. KH Sephiroth definitely as Grimmjow's fast enough to avoid Sephiroth's attacks and murder him.

dgnslyr
2011-11-09, 11:25 AM
Sephiroth's a pushover because Final Fantasy 7 is easy. Most of the Final Fantasies, in general, are pretty easy. So "how tough of a boss he is" isn't exactly the best argument.

Anyways, one theory I've heard is that the final battle with Safer Sephiroth at the end of FF7 was all a mindgame, with everything happening inside of their collectives minds (or maybe just Cloud's mind. You never know). That's how he was able to blow up the ENTIRE SOLAR SYSTEM. Multiple times, too, if you let the battle drag out. Supernova is a mental assault, not a physical one, but even then it does massive damage. Fun fact, though, it deals % damage, more than 90%, based on current HP, so it will never kill you..

Traab
2011-11-09, 11:58 AM
It would make far more sense that way, considering its the most ridiculous ultimate attack ever. Look at it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InNHB9J0eqs) It summons something from outside of the milky way galaxy, obliterates half the planets of our solar system on its way to the sun, then turns the sun into a red giant (not a supernova) that obliterates mercury and venus, then swells to hit earth. It engulfs sephiroth himself, and yet the shockwave does only a set fraction of our parties total hp.

If sephiroth was actually capable of doing that, why the HELL did he waste time with the black materia? He just obliterated a solar system! And the red giant sun that just obliterated two planets and has engulfed at least a portion of the earth only STINGS our party of heroes. (Seriously, regen and barriers makes that not such a big threat) The biggest danger is boredom when he does it for the third time. Assuming you didnt get yourself some knights of the round materia or something and obliterate him in a single turn.

Reverent-One
2011-11-09, 12:45 PM
Then Advent Children happens, giving him even more power as he outright absorbs the souls of millions of people, everyone killed by the Geostigma becomes a part of him.

Geostigma, global pandemic with a 100% mortality rate. Has been going on for 2 years.
That's a lot of dead people, and as such a lot of lifestream.

And what power do all these souls give him? They make him a superhumanly fast, superhumanly strong swordsman who can fly.

...Wait, that sounds like him prior to adsorbing the souls, and not particularly special compared to Grimmjow.

DiscipleofBob
2011-11-09, 12:51 PM
DISCLAIMER: I am completely biased in every way against Sephiroth. I freely admit this.

Point of order however: Sephiroth may have a dozen ways to summon an apocalypse, but they all require an absurd casting time. Even in Dissidia and KH, his most awesome attacks required build-up and could easily be broken by charging up and interrupting the casting. And stuff like the geostigma didn't get the chance to do whatever it was supposed to do because all of these casting times are greater than the time it takes Cloud to beat him. Even Supernova, while impressive-looking, starts on the edge of the galaxy and makes you sit a long while through the cinematic for it.

Arrancars and most characters in Bleach for that matter are known for extreme speed via Sonido. The fight should be over either way before any of those big, scary attacks can come into effect.

Another point of order: So Sephiroth is strong because of the lifestream, huh? I personally find that claim to be bs, but let's assume for the sake of argument it is true. According to the OP, the battleground was a vast, featureless barren desert with infinite dirt below and infinite sky above. The point? No lifestream.

Tiki Snakes
2011-11-09, 12:55 PM
DISCLAIMER: I am completely biased in every way against Sephiroth. I freely admit this.

Point of order however: Sephiroth may have a dozen ways to summon an apocalypse, but they all require an absurd casting time. Even in Dissidia and KH, his most awesome attacks required build-up and could easily be broken by charging up and interrupting the casting. And stuff like the geostigma didn't get the chance to do whatever it was supposed to do because all of these casting times are greater than the time it takes Cloud to beat him. Even Supernova, while impressive-looking, starts on the edge of the galaxy and makes you sit a long while through the cinematic for it.

Arrancars and most characters in Bleach for that matter are known for extreme speed via Sonido. The fight should be over either way before any of those big, scary attacks can come into effect.

Another point of order: So Sephiroth is strong because of the lifestream, huh? I personally find that claim to be bs, but let's assume for the sake of argument it is true. According to the OP, the battleground was a vast, featureless barren desert with infinite dirt below and infinite sky above. The point? No lifestream.

No lifestream, no Sephiroth. Battle canceled on a technicality?

Mixt
2011-11-09, 01:30 PM
Saying that Sephiroth didn't gain any power from absorbing the Lifestream would be the same as saying that Kefka didn't gain any power from absorbing the statues.

Which as we all know, is as far from the truth as you can get.

Not to mention both of them are the source of all magic in their respective settings.
The Lifestream is also experience, knowledge and memories, so there's that to take into account too.

Now, let's take a look at the different abilities Sephiroth has displayed.

-Super Strenght.

-Super Speed.

-Super Reflexes.

-Nigh Invulnerable (Can withstand immense amounts of damage, even more so after dying and becoming a ghost)

-Healing Factor (A result of the Jenova Cells in him. This is why he got back up after having his spine severed by a sneak attack)

-Teleportation.

-Telekinesis (Enough to cause the upper portions of the Shinra building to collapse with a casual thought during the battle at the end of Advent Children, he also tosses the party around like ragdolls prior to the final battle in the game using this)

-Projecting extremely powerful illusions and psychic projections (For example, Supernova, making it seem like you are in the burning Nibelheim when you are actually in the Northern Crater, disguising himself as Tifa to trick whatever party member you left the black materia with, creating a body for himself made entirely out of psychic energies for the final battle.)

-Flying.

-Phasing (He comes right through the damn floor at one point, though this is to be expected from a ghost)

-Super Endurance (Never seems to get tired)

-Mind Control (Of the Massive Mind Rape variety)

-Extremely powerful magic.

-Possessing creatures (Does it to Cloud, does it to Jenova, does it to Kadaj, though doing so requires the presence of Jenova cells in the victims body)

-Not staying dead (Requires Aeris, Zack and the rest of the lifestream to restrain him to prevent him from coming back to life whenever the hell he feels like it)

-Absolutely insane willpower (Which is why he doesn't dissolve into the Lifestream like normal when killed)

And that's just the stuff he actually shows, none of the things he's implied to have.


Also, if there's no Lifestream, then that means the planet is dead and nothing can live on it, just being there would kill you from a lack of atmosphere, among many other things.
It also means Sephiroth would not be able to exist on that Planet, so no battle.



And what power do all these souls give him?

Counter question, what power did the statues give Kefka?

Oh right...

Reverent-One
2011-11-09, 01:37 PM
Saying that Sephiroth didn't gain any power from absorbing the Lifestream would be the same as saying that Kefka didn't gain any power from absorbing the statues.

Which as we all know, is as far from the truth as you can get.

Just saying he didn't seem to gain any powers in advent children from the geostigma deaths.


Also, if there's no Lifestream, then that means the planet is dead and nothing can live on it, just being there would kill you from a lack of atmosphere, among many other things.
It also means Sephiroth would not be able to exist on that Planet, so no battle.

The lifestream is a aspect of the Final Fantasy 7 universe, no reason to think a different reality couldn't have life without a lifestream. And if we're assuming that some power is ripping characters from two different universes and sticking them in a third, seperate universe, said power could remove Sephiroth from the lifestream and allow him to exist without it.

Mixt
2011-11-09, 01:43 PM
Just saying he didn't seem to gain any powers in advent children from the geostigma deaths.

That's already been explained, he didn't want to use them because it would end the battle to quickly, he wanted to torture Cloud, not kill him on the spot.
Using overwhelming magical and psychic powers to rip him apart five seconds into the battle was not what he wanted.

It was all about intentionally limiting himself to flight and basic swordsmanship (With one instance of telekinesis) in order to drag the battle out, inspire false hope, and ultimately snatch it away in the most cruel manner possible, all for the sake of making Cloud suffer.
He essentially pulled the same thing the Anti-Spiral did, lowered himself to his opponents level on purpose to inspire false hope, then crush it.
And he paid for it in the end when Kadaj got killed as a result.

He neglected his powers on purpose because they would make it too easy.

The power gain is explained by the expanded universe (Word Of God, The Novels)

DiscipleofBob
2011-11-09, 01:45 PM
Also, if there's no Lifestream, then that means the planet is dead and nothing can live on it, just being there would kill you from a lack of atmosphere, among many other things.
It also means Sephiroth would not be able to exist on that Planet, so no battle.

Hm.. a cracked, barren desert with infinite dirt and infinite sky. Sounds like a dead planet to me. Good thing Grimmjow really doesn't need any of those things to survive.



Counter question, what power did the statues give Kefka?

Oh right...

You mean the ability to absorb any and all magic while within the field of the statues or Kefka's literal deification into a god of magic? Yeah, not the same thing.

Mixt
2011-11-09, 01:53 PM
I meant the deification.

And you be surprised by how close it is.

Consider this, the Lifestream is the source of magic, the source of life, contains all the knowledge, experience and memories of everything that has ever lived, and basically has absolute power over nature.

Sephiroth absorbed a rather large chunk of it.

It's pretty damn close to what absorbing the statues does if you ask me.
Then there's the whole Word Of God deal stating that yes, Sephiroth is for all intents and purposes the equivalent of a deity by the time Advent Children happens.

It should also be noted that he has Aeris, Zack and most of the rest of the lifestream opposing him at all times, limiting how much of his power he can access, remove that limitation...

Reverent-One
2011-11-09, 02:03 PM
I meant the deification.

And you be surprised by how close it is.

Consider this, the Lifestream is the source of magic, the source of life, contains all the knowledge, experience and memories of everything that has ever lived, and basically has absolute power over nature.

Sephiroth absorbed a rather large chunk of it.

It's pretty damn close to what absorbing the statues does if you ask me.
Then there's the whole Word Of God deal stating that yes, Sephiroth is for all intents and purposes the equivalent of a deity by the time Advent Children happens.

If you're talking about The Reunion Files, the wiki does say it says that Sephiroph "ascended to a new level of existence", but it also says that "his true potential is still unknown".


It should also be noted that he has Aeris, Zack and most of the rest of the lifestream opposing him at all times, limiting how much of his power he can access, remove that limitation...

And you'd remove most the lifestream. Yes, Sephiroph can hack the lifestream by corrupting it with Jenova cells, but giving it to him in a one on one fight is like giving Darth Vader the Death Star. Yes, he can control it, but it's a seperate entity that really doesn't have a place in a vs thread like this.

Traab
2011-11-09, 02:10 PM
Thats why I say to knock it back to pre life stream sephiroth. Its still an incredibly strong sephiroth, but not a god version. He still has incredibly powerful magic, speed, swordsmanship, etc. He just doesnt have the ability of, "he is god, his opponent loses, unless he decides to restrain 75% of his power just to make things interesting."

Reverent-One
2011-11-09, 02:16 PM
Thats why I say to knock it back to pre life stream sephiroth. Its still an incredibly strong sephiroth, but not a god version. He still has incredibly powerful magic, speed, swordsmanship, etc. He just doesnt have the ability of, "he is god, his opponent loses, unless he decides to restrain 75% of his power just to make things interesting."

Well, it's more a matter of Grimmjow vs Sephiroph + Jenova infected lifestream makes it a Grimmjow vs Lifestream versus thread, not Grimmjow vs Sephiroph. Combine this with the fact that, since post-lifestream Sephiroph has never had all his abilties described, we don't have any hard evidence on what he's actually capable of and it just doesn't work as a versus thread.

Mixt
2011-11-09, 02:18 PM
And you'd remove most the lifestream. Yes, Sephiroph can hack the lifestream by corrupting it with Jehova cells, but giving it to him in a one on one fight is like giving Darth Vader the Death Star. Yes, he can control it, but it's a seperate entity that really doesn't have a place in a vs thread like this.

Point taken, but that still leaves him with what he had in the game.

Which is still quite a lot, considering he was capable of holding off Holy and still have a lot of power left over.

And there's still the "Psychic ghost" deal going for him.
Other notorious examples of psychic ghosts of similiar power includes, among a few others, Alma Wade of F.E.A.R

Actually, he does display quite a number of the same abilites she does, by virtue of being the same type of creature.
Though his power is better controlled and far less prone to going haywire, and he seems to prefer slicing you up with the Masamune or barbequing you with magical fire...or impaling you on sharp objects (Poor Zolom, impaled on a tree) over ripping you apart with his mind (Though a lot of things point to him being able to do so if he wanted)

Having effectively done a permanent fusion with Jenova to the point where they are now the same creature does not help. At all.

And then there's the stuff he had while mortal, including the best military training you can get and years of experience fighting against Wutai.

Still pretty bad, even without the Lifestream powering him up.

Reverent-One
2011-11-09, 02:36 PM
And there's still the "Psychic ghost" deal going for him.
Other notorious examples of psychic ghosts of similiar power includes, among a few others, Alma Wade of F.E.A.R

Given that Grimmjow is ostensibly a spirit being, this likely just puts them at even footing.

Frozen_Feet
2011-11-09, 04:17 PM
Hm.. a cracked, barren desert with infinite dirt and infinite sky. Sounds like a dead planet to me.

... sounds like Hueco Mundo to me. Grimkitty would feel right at home.


I find it funny how it's stressed how Sephiroth is a ghost. Grimmjow is as well - an amalgam of thousands after thousands of vengeful spirits of the dead, to be exact.

Traab
2011-11-09, 05:06 PM
... sounds like Hueco Mundo to me. Grimkitty would feel right at home.


I find it funny how it's stressed how Sephiroth is a ghost. Grimmjow is as well - an amalgam of thousands after thousands of vengeful spirits of the dead, to be exact.

..... GRIMMJOW IS SEPHIROTH!!!!

DiscipleofBob
2011-11-09, 05:59 PM
..... GRIMMJOW IS SEPHIROTH!!!!

Nah. Key difference: Grimmjow has a personality.

littlebottom
2011-11-09, 08:00 PM
about the supernova thing, its just a stylish cutscene for a move designed to make all players at 1 hp, the fact he destroys the sun, (and does it more than once in the same battle) means nothing, guys its a game:smallwink:

also sephiroth would win, he is just so fast and has such a range that he can fight from a safe distance, and always keep moving to the most advantagous position in nearly a blink of an eye.

thats only based off every incarnation of him in almost every game he has been in (except ergheiz because everyones speed was the same and ive not played kingdomhearts)

EDIT: also, the fact Sephiroth is in like every vs thread kinda shows he is the one people want to beat. the industry standard of super kick ass

Reverent-One
2011-11-09, 08:06 PM
also sephiroth would win, he is just so fast and has such a range that he can fight from a safe distance, and always keep moving to the most advantagous position in nearly a blink of an eye.

Which is also what Grimmjow is capable of. Pretty much anyone who's anyone in Bleach is capable of some sort of move that literally moves faster than the eye can see.

Traab
2011-11-09, 09:07 PM
Which is also what Grimmjow is capable of. Pretty much anyone who's anyone in Bleach is capable of some sort of move that literally moves faster than the eye can see.

Hell, several base their main battle strategy around being so freaking fast they are unstoppable. Also, Grim is equally capable of dealing out devastating damage from range as he is from up close, so if sephi wants to run for his life, let him. It wont help. Hmm, I wonder if he could pull that blade grab move he did to ichigo on sephiroth? It might be amusing to watch his masamune blade get caught bare handed, and then used to catapult him several blocks away. :p

Fan
2011-11-09, 09:30 PM
Alternatively, upon grabbing it. Lightning 3.

He then casts Regen on himself, so his already absurd healing factor (allowing him to instantly recover from life ending wounds such as having a severed spine, about a dozen punctured organs etc. Something that even the Hyper Advanced Healing of Uliquorra (The Espada ranked above HIM.) was stated to not be able to do.) to be more than doubled.

Or he mind rapes the easily toyed with Grimmjow.

OR he casts Stop (something not all bosses are immune to in FF. I've played this game enough to know that it's not a boss grade immunity that is like, this sweeping blanket for those of higher power, and if it was for those of higher power. Then Cloud would be auto immune all status effects. He's not.), death (which ironically summons a Shinigami.), any summon he damn well pleases, etc.

And honestly Advent Children shows us that Summons, and magic attacks like that have charge ups more in the realm of about a second, no longer than a cero from Grimmjow, the charge up times and runes are there as the game mechanic, not an actual indicator of how long it takes it to actually happen.

And again, pre Advent Children Sephiroth is still slicing apart a cannon who's barrel is canonically (as in, actually in FF 7.) thicker than most houses and made out of military grade super steel (pretty sure they had some magictechnobabble steel for use by shinras military, and their construction.) with one handed with casual flicks of his wrists.

Whereas Grimmjow has difficulty breaking through a hollow pillar of stone (they are shown to be hollow in the same episode that Ichigo and Grimmjow fight.) with a full on dive bomb power attack.

There's just too many ways for Grimmjow to insta lose for it to be viable, I'd say he's AS fast, but he simply loses out in the area of magical ability, utility power, durability, ability to come back from the dead, and power.

dgnslyr
2011-11-09, 09:45 PM
Hmm, I wonder, if both combatants brought together all of their fangirls and had them squeal simultaneously, whose side would be louder?

Fan
2011-11-09, 09:47 PM
The answer is obvious of course.

Me.:smalltongue:

Reverent-One
2011-11-09, 10:50 PM
And again, pre Advent Children Sephiroth is still slicing apart a cannon who's barrel is canonically (as in, actually in FF 7.) thicker than most houses and made out of military grade super steel (pretty sure they had some magictechnobabble steel for use by shinras military, and their construction.) with one handed with casual flicks of his wrists.

Whereas Grimmjow has difficulty breaking through a hollow pillar of stone (they are shown to be hollow in the same episode that Ichigo and Grimmjow fight.) with a full on dive bomb power attack.

Obviously it wasn't a big power attack since he can effortlessly break them if he wants to (with either just one of his darts or a solid kick).

Fan
2011-11-09, 11:00 PM
Obviously it wasn't a big power attack since he can effortlessly break them if he wants to (with either just one of his darts or a solid kick).

I uh..

Will require video proof?

Cause I don't really know what you're talking about.

Reverent-One
2011-11-09, 11:04 PM
I uh..

Will require video proof?

Cause I don't really know what you're talking about.

Here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoVqrTPtTFY) 4:10 for the first instance, 5:30 for the second.

Fan
2011-11-09, 11:09 PM
Check 6:00 as well, the very spinning power attack that I mentioned. In the same video you linked!

And then the beginning of the video, and pretty much every other instance but the ones you stated.. both of which were special power attacks.

Reverent-One
2011-11-09, 11:18 PM
Check 6:00 as well, the very spinning power attack that I mentioned. In the same video you linked!

You mean the not terribly impressive spin kick that never came in contact with the pillar at all? That's the "full on dive bomb power attack" you were talking about? Not impressed. It barely threw Ichigo around at all and still damaged the pillar, and is obviously not an upper limit on his power.


And then the beginning of the video, and pretty much every other instance but the ones you stated.. both of which were special power attacks.

Which just mean that those attacks were not the most powerful ones he was capable of. He obviously can totally demolish one if he wants to, and it might even happen as unintentional collateral damage.

Traab
2011-11-09, 11:45 PM
You mean the not terribly impressive spin kick that never came in contact with the pillar at all? That's the "full on dive bomb power attack" you were talking about? Not impressed. It barely threw Ichigo around at all and still damaged the pillar, and is obviously not an upper limit on his power.



Which just mean that those attacks were not the most powerful ones he was capable of. He obviously can totally demolish one if he wants to, and it might even happen as unintentional collateral damage.

I agree with reverent here. Those spots he linked showed both the ability to cleanly sever a pillar that really isnt that far from what sephiroth was doing in his video, and the second spot showed him utterly obliterating the entire damn thing. I call relative parity of power on that aspect. Maybe not exactly equal, but roughly equivalent. Certainly enough to show that its not going to be a cakewalk for either side based off ability to slice ludicrously large structures. Oh, and that cannon was hollow too, otherwise the bullets wouldnt go anywhere, so pointing out those pillars were hollow doesnt exactly lend extra credit for a strength gap between them. So while the cannon may have a 50 foot diameter, it only has about 20 feet of solid metal to cut through. Impressive as hell, but its not like it was "Omg, a steel pillar thicker than a house!"

And while sephiroth shows a great deal of healing ability, grimm shows a rather high end ability to not take damage in the first place. From what I gathered it was basically taking ultimate attack level moves just to HURT him a bit. Moves that would have annihilated most other opponents just left a nasty cut. So durability versus healing factor.

Fan
2011-11-10, 01:23 AM
I agree with reverent here. Those spots he linked showed both the ability to cleanly sever a pillar that really isnt that far from what sephiroth was doing in his video, and the second spot showed him utterly obliterating the entire damn thing. I call relative parity of power on that aspect. Maybe not exactly equal, but roughly equivalent. Certainly enough to show that its not going to be a cakewalk for either side based off ability to slice ludicrously large structures. Oh, and that cannon was hollow too, otherwise the bullets wouldnt go anywhere, so pointing out those pillars were hollow doesnt exactly lend extra credit for a strength gap between them. So while the cannon may have a 50 foot diameter, it only has about 20 feet of solid metal to cut through. Impressive as hell, but its not like it was "Omg, a steel pillar thicker than a house!"

And while sephiroth shows a great deal of healing ability, grimm shows a rather high end ability to not take damage in the first place. From what I gathered it was basically taking ultimate attack level moves just to HURT him a bit. Moves that would have annihilated most other opponents just left a nasty cut. So durability versus healing factor.

Which lends advantage to Sephiroth because he can just keep getting back up, even from apparent victories, and killing him lends towards the Final Attack --> Phoenix, or Mind Rape, or Possession, or any number of horrible tactics.

The difference here is that Sephiroth has MAGIC, and the ability to do things that Grimmjow just can't compete with (Haste to DOUBLE his speed.), and so much that he simply can't compete with (Shield. Full Cure. Etc.)

Forum Explorer
2011-11-10, 05:40 AM
Which lends advantage to Sephiroth because he can just keep getting back up, even from apparent victories, and killing him lends towards the Final Attack --> Phoenix, or Mind Rape, or Possession, or any number of horrible tactics.

The difference here is that Sephiroth has MAGIC, and the ability to do things that Grimmjow just can't compete with (Haste to DOUBLE his speed.), and so much that he simply can't compete with (Shield. Full Cure. Etc.)

Grimmjow does have magic but I am still giving this to Sephiroth because Grimmjow is ultimately very predictable and will have a tendency to hold back which will just get him killed.

Traab
2011-11-10, 08:44 AM
Grimmjow does have magic but I am still giving this to Sephiroth because Grimmjow is ultimately very predictable and will have a tendency to hold back which will just get him killed.

Isnt that EXACTLY how sephiroth got killed/defeated? He held back. A lot. Im just saying that both of them have a tendency to not go all out right from the start. Whether its to try and cause as much pain as possible, or some sort of kenpachi style wanting a good fight motivation, both of them are the type to hold back their full strength, and it has bitten both of them in the ass before.

Fan
2011-11-10, 09:11 AM
Isnt that EXACTLY how sephiroth got killed/defeated? He held back. A lot. Im just saying that both of them have a tendency to not go all out right from the start. Whether its to try and cause as much pain as possible, or some sort of kenpachi style wanting a good fight motivation, both of them are the type to hold back their full strength, and it has bitten both of them in the ass before.

Sephiroth held back due to a personal stake in the fight.

Grimmjow holds back out of the latter.

In a V.S. Scenario like this, Sephiroth wouldn't hold back.

He'd kill Grimmjow before he ever really got a chance to release.

Traab
2011-11-10, 10:26 AM
Sephiroth held back due to a personal stake in the fight.

Grimmjow holds back out of the latter.

In a V.S. Scenario like this, Sephiroth wouldn't hold back.

He'd kill Grimmjow before he ever really got a chance to release.

If we go with pre lifestream sephiroth, I dont think so. I honestly think that if the two of them were to be transported to this barren world specifically to fight to the death, they would do things like a normal swordfight. Instead of going straight for the all or nothing insta kills, they would test each other and keep ramping up their power levels to match their opponent until someone hits their limit and gets slaughtered. Neither would have a fast or easy victory.

KnightDisciple
2011-11-11, 12:30 AM
Sephiroth wins by dint of a better theme song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5st0b3ln5U).

DiscipleofBob
2011-11-11, 09:39 AM
Sephiroth wins by dint of a better theme song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5st0b3ln5U).

I'm sorry, was that One Winged Angel? I couldn't hear it over the sound of my ears bleeding in an effort to drown out the screeching.

Seriously, with every iteration of One Winged Angel I've ever heard, I've had to hit mute/skip. It's the single most damaging attack I've seen Sephiroth do thus far.

KnightDisciple
2011-11-11, 10:40 AM
I'm sorry, was that One Winged Angel? I couldn't hear it over the sound of my ears bleeding in an effort to drown out the screeching.

Seriously, with every iteration of One Winged Angel I've ever heard, I've had to hit mute/skip. It's the single most damaging attack I've seen Sephiroth do thus far.

I guess we're gonna have to chalk this one up to "wildly different tastes" (especially since the only vocals are chanting, and it's primarily a fairly low-key rock-style number).

But at least people know the song. I don't even remember if Grimmkitty has a theme song, and if he does, it's just another piece of Bleach anime music, really.

DiscipleofBob
2011-11-11, 10:48 AM
I guess we're gonna have to chalk this one up to "wildly different tastes" (especially since the only vocals are chanting, and it's primarily a fairly low-key rock-style number).

But at least people know the song. I don't even remember if Grimmkitty has a theme song, and if he does, it's just another piece of Bleach anime music, really.

Can't argue with that. And if Grimmjow does have a theme, it was obviously fairly forgettable.

AFTER RESEARCH: Oh, right, I forgot. Kubo does give theme songs to all his characters in the design phase, whether or not that song actually ever appears in the anime.


The theme song Tite Kubo chose for Grimmjow is "Bomb LA(A Bombs) - Step Inside" from [And Just Constantly Rotating].


I'm not currently in a position to hunt down said song or link to it if someone else wants to oblige.

Traab
2011-11-11, 11:20 AM
Can't argue with that. And if Grimmjow does have a theme, it was obviously fairly forgettable.

AFTER RESEARCH: Oh, right, I forgot. Kubo does give theme songs to all his characters in the design phase, whether or not that song actually ever appears in the anime.



I'm not currently in a position to hunt down said song or link to it if someone else wants to oblige.
One Winged Angel is better. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPNTVlL4G9o)

Fan
2011-11-11, 11:23 AM
One Winged Angel is better. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPNTVlL4G9o)

ARHGHAH.

Ouch. There are so many songs that could hav- You know what, just about ANY song not from the dregs of musical popdom could have done him more justice.

Frozen_Feet
2011-11-11, 12:16 PM
But at least people know the song. I don't even remember if Grimmkitty has a theme song, and if he does, it's just another piece of Bleach anime music, really.

Here's Grimkitty's theme from the anime. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOGkZsuFILU)I prefer it to One-Winged Angel. :smalltongue:

Forum Explorer
2011-11-11, 12:38 PM
well Grimmjow apparently wins in number of theme songs. :smallamused:

On that note One Winged Angel is one of my fav songs.

But the true champion of theme songs is GlaDos

KnightDisciple
2011-11-11, 12:43 PM
Here's Grimkitty's theme from the anime. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOGkZsuFILU)I prefer it to One-Winged Angel. :smalltongue:

It's a 4-chord rock thing (or some such). I mean, yeah, the tempo's solid, but...

One-Winged Angel uses a whole orchestra, and does in fact have Ominous Latin Chanting. Sorry, you can't convince me Grimkitty's is better.

DiscipleofBob
2011-11-11, 01:13 PM
It's a 4-chord rock thing (or some such). I mean, yeah, the tempo's solid, but...

One-Winged Angel uses a whole orchestra, and does in fact have Ominous Latin Chanting. Sorry, you can't convince me Grimkitty's is better.

Great. This has now become who would win between Sephiroth and Grimmjow in a Guitar Hero match. :smallbiggrin:

Tono
2011-11-11, 01:15 PM
Sephiroth may win the guitar hero contest because he could do it while just standing and looking at the screen, which seems to be what he is best at, while Grimmy would win it on showmanship.

littlebottom
2011-11-13, 07:01 PM
well, talking about pre-lifestream sephiroth then we are talking about sephiroth the whole lifestream thing is negateable since the only time you battle him after the lifestream is as the final boss.

anyway, i think sephiroth would proberbly enjoy the fight, and it would last a significantly long time in super-speed terms. i think it would be a highly interesting battle where neither opponent takes the battle seriously to begin with, totally underestimating each other, but slowly increasing til they are at full power and repeatedly deflecting each others blows, but in the end, i think sephiroth would edge it. why? because sephiroth is basically the decendant of a powerful alien who has clearly demonstrated his ability to retain himself as himself even as a part of the lifestream (IE not just merging with it when he was dead, he stayed as a seperate entity within it) so his soul is not one that can be taken as such. his life can not truely ever be ended, even in the (i believe) unlikely event of a loss.

Traab
2011-11-14, 10:55 AM
So in the end, grimm tries to devour sephiroths soul, and instead turns into a black cloaked individual circling nibelheim mumbling something about the reunion? :p

Mixt
2011-11-15, 06:36 AM
"Can you...hear...the call...of...Sep...hi...ro...th...?"

They sound like a bunch of damn cultists.
Actually, in a way, they kind of are.

DiscipleofBob
2011-11-15, 08:58 AM
Once again, minor nitpick regarding Sephiroth's whole relationship to Jenova thing, just to be clear...

WARNING: Dirge of Cerberus spoilers below. It wasn't that great a game anyway.

Sephiroth is NOT the descendent, son, daughter, whatever of Jenova. He's an experiment injected with Jenova cells just like apparently half the cast of the FF7-verse. Sephiroth is the son of Lucretia (yes, that woman Vincent fawns over) and Hojo. The only difference is that Hojo started his experiments with Sephiroth early. Like, injecting Jenova cells in the womb early. The whole "Jenova is my Mother" thing refers to Hojo being a crazy person and referring to Jenova as 'Mother' in his notes. Interestingly enough, it seems Vincent is the son of Lucretia and some other guy, making Vincent and Sephiroth half-siblings.

Tiki Snakes
2011-11-15, 09:10 AM
I've not played Dirge of Cerberus, but all that was in FF7 itself, to be fair.

DiscipleofBob
2011-11-15, 09:14 AM
I've not played Dirge of Cerberus, but all that was in FF7 itself, to be fair.

Not the part about Vincent's relationship to Lucretia. That specifically was NOT in FF7. I remember thinking that Vincent and Lucretia were separated lovers based on the scenes from the main FF7 game. Really made me go 'wtf' when I played DoC

Mixt
2011-11-15, 09:20 AM
Pretty sure most of us knew that already.

But being injected while still in the womb did have the effect of making the Jenova cells a natural part of his body, unlike everyone else who had them injected later.

This is also why Sephiroth is so much stronger than everyone else, and why his regenerative abilities are great enough to recover from a severed spine in a matter of minutes.

It also supposedly affected his appearance in some way, it's why his features are so unnervingly flawless.
It's supposed to invoke the Uncanny Valley, normal people just plain don't look that perfect.
Yes, there's actually a reason he's so Bishonen, Jenova did it.
Hojo might have helped things along a bit, wouldn't put it past him to use genetic engineering to "Remove any remaining flaws in order to create the perfect being"

In short, being injected before he was even born did a lot to him.


Also, random fun fact: Sephiroth has the same voice actor as Superman.

Traab
2011-11-15, 10:46 AM
Pretty sure most of us knew that already.

But being injected while still in the womb did have the effect of making the Jenova cells a natural part of his body, unlike everyone else who had them injected later.

This is also why Sephiroth is so much stronger than everyone else, and why his regenerative abilities are great enough to recover from a severed spine in a matter of minutes.

It also supposedly affected his appearance in some way, it's why his features are so unnervingly flawless.
It's supposed to invoke the Uncanny Valley, normal people just plain don't look that perfect.
Yes, there's actually a reason he's so Bishonen, Jenova did it.
Hojo might have helped things along a bit, wouldn't put it past him to use genetic engineering to "Remove any remaining flaws in order to create the perfect being"

In short, being injected before he was even born did a lot to him.


Also, random fun fact: Sephiroth has the same voice actor as Superman.

I didnt know about the whole injected in the womb and half brother to vincent thing myself. I also thought vinnie was in love with lucrezia. It never gets covered in any way shape or form in ff7 that they are anything but romantically involved in some way. And I dont recall sephiroths actual parents ever being mentioned. I just figured he got a larger dose of jenova juice than anyone else, and started to basically exert control over the others and came up with his whole plan to blow up the world so he could steal all the worlds power.

Honestly, I dont get it, was he just in a hurry? I mean, if he is already a part of the lifestream, and the lifestream is exactly that, a giant freaking river that is constantly flowing, why the hell does he need a huge disaster to pull all that energy to him when he could just float in the lifestream and absorb it as he goes? That may get covered more in the movies and games and such, but considering it was the entire focus of ff7, you would think explanations would also be included. I honestly thought sephiroth was wandering the globe, being followed by cloud and company, and he wanted to basically stand at ground zero of the meteor strike to absorb the rush of life stream energy right off the bat. As far as I was aware, he wasnt a part of the lifestream already, he just had a fairly awesome, if evil, plan to grab a buttload of power for himself. Not so different from kefka really. Just a bit harder to pull off than shoving some chunks of rock apart and standing in the middle.

Tiki Snakes
2011-11-15, 04:02 PM
I didnt know about the whole injected in the womb and half brother to vincent thing myself. I also thought vinnie was in love with lucrezia. It never gets covered in any way shape or form in ff7 that they are anything but romantically involved in some way. And I dont recall sephiroths actual parents ever being mentioned. I just figured he got a larger dose of jenova juice than anyone else, and started to basically exert control over the others and came up with his whole plan to blow up the world so he could steal all the worlds power.

Honestly, I dont get it, was he just in a hurry? I mean, if he is already a part of the lifestream, and the lifestream is exactly that, a giant freaking river that is constantly flowing, why the hell does he need a huge disaster to pull all that energy to him when he could just float in the lifestream and absorb it as he goes? That may get covered more in the movies and games and such, but considering it was the entire focus of ff7, you would think explanations would also be included. I honestly thought sephiroth was wandering the globe, being followed by cloud and company, and he wanted to basically stand at ground zero of the meteor strike to absorb the rush of life stream energy right off the bat. As far as I was aware, he wasnt a part of the lifestream already, he just had a fairly awesome, if evil, plan to grab a buttload of power for himself. Not so different from kefka really. Just a bit harder to pull off than shoving some chunks of rock apart and standing in the middle.

Ok, where to start? Sephiroth is secretly dead long before the actual start of the game. Yes, he was infact injected in the womb by Hojo, who was his father. Lucretia, who is something to do with vincent, (either love interest ala implications of FF7 or parent as of Dirge) was his mother. The sephiroth we see in the games is him channeling himself through the various people like cloud. Cloud is the odd one out, because his willpower or so on allows him to mostly or possibly completely resist. (Which is potentially all tied up in the ways he was different from the other test subjects, though it's been a while.)

My memory gets hazy on the particular details of Sephiroths plan, but I recall that essentially he was doing the kind of thing that Jenova had done to countless planets in the past, only he'd kind of usurped Jenova as well as defied the lifestream, so to speak. They did cover a suprisingly large amount of the above, actually, though a lot of it was subtle reference or easily missable secret.

Traab
2011-11-15, 08:54 PM
Ok, where to start? Sephiroth is secretly dead long before the actual start of the game. Yes, he was infact injected in the womb by Hojo, who was his father. Lucretia, who is something to do with vincent, (either love interest ala implications of FF7 or parent as of Dirge) was his mother. The sephiroth we see in the games is him channeling himself through the various people like cloud. Cloud is the odd one out, because his willpower or so on allows him to mostly or possibly completely resist. (Which is potentially all tied up in the ways he was different from the other test subjects, though it's been a while.)

My memory gets hazy on the particular details of Sephiroths plan, but I recall that essentially he was doing the kind of thing that Jenova had done to countless planets in the past, only he'd kind of usurped Jenova as well as defied the lifestream, so to speak. They did cover a suprisingly large amount of the above, actually, though a lot of it was subtle reference or easily missable secret.

Yeah but most of that info is only noticeable through hindsight, watching the advent/dirge stuff, or through interpretations of the info we are given in the game after the fact. "Oh, THATS what they meant!" type stuff. Even when we see sephi in that crystal right before he unleashes the weapons, we never have reason to believe that he didnt just recently do that to himself after barely beating cloud and crew to the north pole. Ill be honest, I was still confused about clouds identity to an extent even after I beat the game for a second time, (I understand it better now) What I want to know is, was that done intentionally, in order to make us want to watch advent/play dirge? Or did they realize how many questions were left unanswered or unclear and decide to capitalize on that by releasing those other titles?

Tiki Snakes
2011-11-16, 12:29 AM
Yeah but most of that info is only noticeable through hindsight, watching the advent/dirge stuff, or through interpretations of the info we are given in the game after the fact. "Oh, THATS what they meant!" type stuff. Even when we see sephi in that crystal right before he unleashes the weapons, we never have reason to believe that he didnt just recently do that to himself after barely beating cloud and crew to the north pole. Ill be honest, I was still confused about clouds identity to an extent even after I beat the game for a second time, (I understand it better now) What I want to know is, was that done intentionally, in order to make us want to watch advent/play dirge? Or did they realize how many questions were left unanswered or unclear and decide to capitalize on that by releasing those other titles?

No, actually, I got almost all of that from playing ff7 really. Never played Dirge and remember little beyond the visuals of Advent.

Mixt
2011-11-16, 06:40 AM
One of FF7's greatest flaws is that it assumes the players are geniuses capable of figuring out the details of the plot on their own without needing to have it thrown in their faces.

Simply put, it assumes that the players are smart enough and willing to dedicate a lot of time to think about the deeper meanings about everything.

Problem is that most people either aren't smart enough, or don't want to bother thinking about it because they have other things to do.
And sometimes people's way of thinking just isn't compatible with the plot.

This leads to a lot of confusion and false assumptions.

At least the game doesn't assume you are complete idiot by stating the obvious over and over again just to make sure you got the message (Which would be going to far in the other direction instead)

The Succubus
2011-11-16, 07:06 AM
One of FF7's greatest flaws is that it assumes the players are geniuses capable of figuring out the details of the plot on their own without needing to have it thrown in their faces.

Simply put, it assumes that the players are smart enough and willing to dedicate a lot of time to think about the deeper meanings about everything.

Problem is that most people either aren't smart enough, or don't want to bother thinking about it because they have other things to do.
And sometimes people's way of thinking just isn't compatible with the plot.

This leads to a lot of confusion and false assumptions.

At least the game doesn't assume you are complete idiot by stating the obvious over and over again just to make sure you got the message (Which would be going to far in the other direction instead)

Actually, I really like this aspect of FF VII. The slightly nebulous nature allows for a lot of personal interpretation and discussion. I really dislike having the good guy/bad guy thing rubbed in my face as it was with later FFs like VIII and X.

Also, my take on it was that Vincent and Lucretia were most definitely lovers, rather than mother + son. Remembering the scenes from the submarine cave and the odd flashback, the way they act with each other really doesn't fit a mother and son speaking to each other. I also like the implied hint that Vincent is Sephiroth's father, at least partially.

I ordered the FF VII soundtrack off Amazon last night, looking forward to adding it on my iPod. As for the One-Winged Angel thing, I like it but I prefer Sephiroth's main theme (I think it's Birth of a God?). It sounds much more sinister and menacing.

Mixt
2011-11-16, 07:37 AM
Actually, Sephiroth has 3 theme songs.

Those Chosen By The Planet

Birth Of A God

One-Winged Angel.

Here you go, Those Chosen By The Planet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rV40ypje7o)

Birth Of A God is the one that plays in the first part of the battle, the one against Bizarro Sephiroth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQwQnEfbh0U)

Tiki Snakes
2011-11-16, 10:36 AM
Actually, I really like this aspect of FF VII. The slightly nebulous nature allows for a lot of personal interpretation and discussion. I really dislike having the good guy/bad guy thing rubbed in my face as it was with later FFs like VIII and X.

Also, my take on it was that Vincent and Lucretia were most definitely lovers, rather than mother + son. Remembering the scenes from the submarine cave and the odd flashback, the way they act with each other really doesn't fit a mother and son speaking to each other. I also like the implied hint that Vincent is Sephiroth's father, at least partially.

Pretty much yeah, I do particularly enjoy the less intrusive way of giving the major secrets. There's touches of it in 8, too. I mean, there are people out there who still don't know who Squall's father is.

To be fair though, a lot of it could well come down to translation issues? It is very possible that in the original japanese there were extra touches of meaning and context that made bits like that more obvious. I remember distinctly getting into confusing discussions about Link and Zelda's relationship in Legend of Zelda, Link to the past and so on, at least in part because the translator left half a line out.
The original japanese line that should have been something like;
"Link, Zelda is your destiny."
became "Link, Zelda is your..." with the obvious end of the sentance being sister.

DiscipleofBob
2011-11-16, 10:42 AM
Pretty much yeah, I do particularly enjoy the less intrusive way of giving the major secrets. There's touches of it in 8, too. I mean, there are people out there who still don't know who Squall's father is.

To be fair though, a lot of it could well come down to translation issues? It is very possible that in the original japanese there were extra touches of meaning and context that made bits like that more obvious. I remember distinctly getting into confusing discussions about Link and Zelda's relationship in Legend of Zelda, Link to the past and so on, at least in part because the translator left half a line out.
The original japanese line that should have been something like;
"Link, Zelda is your destiny."
became "Link, Zelda is your..." with the obvious end of the sentance being sister.

There's lots of subtle plot in the Final Fantasy series, stuff that's easily missable even if you play through the game multiple times. Squall's father I didn't even know about until I found out about it online, because most of that particular detail is implied, not told. There's no confirmation of that information in the game, so it's possible to arrive at a different conclusion. Me, for example...
I originally didn't see any biological relationship between Squall and Laguna, because at the time I believed that the piano singer (Julia I think was her name) got pregnant from Laguna before he left and had Rinoa, then married the general to quickly cover up that she had a child out of wedlock. When it was revealed that Laguna was actually Squall's father, there was a bit of squick at first from me.

Or the relationship between Shadow and Relm in Final Fantasy 6. Oh sure, the hints are there, and it seems obvious once you know the answer, but the first time playing through it's not difficult to miss the conclusion.

The Succubus
2011-11-16, 11:34 AM
I originally didn't see any biological relationship between Squall and Laguna, because at the time I believed that the piano singer (Julia I think was her name) got pregnant from Laguna before he left and had Rinoa, then married the general to quickly cover up that she had a child out of wedlock. When it was revealed that Laguna was actually Squall's father, there was a bit of squick at first from me.

Wait, so Squall and Rinoa are brother and sister? :smalleek: That's even worse than Vincent and Lucretia! :smallyuk::smalleek: Any more Final Fantasy love sub-plots you want to ruin for me? Next you'll tell me Cloud and Tifa are twins and what they got up to on top of that rock before the final showdown was not just squick but actually illegal in most countries. :smallyuk: :smalleek:

Tiki Snakes
2011-11-16, 12:05 PM
Wait, so Squall and Rinoa are brother and sister? :smalleek: That's even worse than Vincent and Lucretia! :smallyuk::smalleek: Any more Final Fantasy love sub-plots you want to ruin for me? Next you'll tell me Cloud and Tifa are twins and what they got up to on top of that rock before the final showdown was not just squick but actually illegal in most countries. :smallyuk: :smalleek:

No, far as I follow it, he misread the clues and thought Rinoa was the child. So when he finds out online who Squall's parents are, then he gets squicked. But only because he had Rinoa wrong, she isn't related to Laguna to my knowledge. (Except eventually as Daughter in Law, I assume? Heh.)

In fact, I'm pretty sure we meet her Dad in the very first Disc of the game, a general perhaps? Man, it's been a while.

DiscipleofBob
2011-11-16, 02:25 PM
No, far as I follow it, he misread the clues and thought Rinoa was the child. So when he finds out online who Squall's parents are, then he gets squicked. But only because he had Rinoa wrong, she isn't related to Laguna to my knowledge. (Except eventually as Daughter in Law, I assume? Heh.)

In fact, I'm pretty sure we meet her Dad in the very first Disc of the game, a general perhaps? Man, it's been a while.



Yeah, I misread the subtext. Doesn't change the fact that my original impression that Squall and Rinoa were eventually going to go through some Luke & Leia Syndrome. Her dad is the general, I'd just assumed at that point that they weren't actually biologically related and that either the general kept that a secret or he didn't know either.

Traab
2011-11-16, 02:31 PM
Or the relationship between Shadow and Relm in Final Fantasy 6. Oh sure, the hints are there, and it seems obvious once you know the answer, but the first time playing through it's not difficult to miss the conclusion.

What hints?! What relationship?! The only connection between them ive ever seen is shadows dog likes relm. Admittedly its been a long time since I did the "sleep with shadow in your party" thing, so i dont recall his dreams, but I dont remember ANY link between them.

The Glyphstone
2011-11-16, 02:34 PM
Wait, so Squall and Rinoa are brother and sister? :smalleek: That's even worse than Vincent and Lucretia! :smallyuk::smalleek: Any more Final Fantasy love sub-plots you want to ruin for me? Next you'll tell me Cloud and Tifa are twins and what they got up to on top of that rock before the final showdown was not just squick but actually illegal in most countries. :smallyuk: :smalleek:


Well, you do need a permit to purchase that many ping-pong balls, and I very much doubt that the Chocobo gave its consent beforehand...:smallbiggrin:

DiscipleofBob
2011-11-16, 02:37 PM
What hints?! What relationship?! The only connection between them ive ever seen is shadows dog likes relm. Admittedly its been a long time since I did the "sleep with shadow in your party" thing, so i dont recall his dreams, but I dont remember ANY link between them.
Exactly. See...
Shadow is Relm's father. Strago being the father of Relm's mother. There's several flashbacks which sort of hint at it, including one where a gentleman is leaving Thamasa and is trying to tell Interceptor to stay behind with Relm.

The big giveaway though is the fact that the Memento Ring, a Relic which is supposed to protect the wearer with the love of Relm's mother, whom it was from, is also equippable by Shadow.

tyckspoon
2011-11-16, 03:09 PM
There's lots of subtle plot in the Final Fantasy series, stuff that's easily missable even if you play through the game multiple times.


And then there's the stuff that's only mentioned in easily-missable sidequests and cutscenes.. like.. hands up, everybody who never saw the one that shows how Zack died and Cloud got to Midgar? At least, never saw it in the game itself? It's a pretty big number, because the game never gives you a reason to go back to the area where it triggers; you won't see it unless you're doing a "hmm, I wonder if any sidequests have unlocked anywhere, better go check *every single location again*" thing.. and most of FF VII's sidequests had associated map locations and weren't terribly subtle, so there wasn't much reason to think you needed to do that.

Starwulf
2011-11-16, 04:43 PM
Exactly. See...
Shadow is Relm's father. Strago being the father of Relm's mother. There's several flashbacks which sort of hint at it, including one where a gentleman is leaving Thamasa and is trying to tell Interceptor to stay behind with Relm.

The big giveaway though is the fact that the Memento Ring, a Relic which is supposed to protect the wearer with the love of Relm's mother, whom it was from, is also equippable by Shadow.

I have to say, I'm kind of confused as to how anyone who has played FFVI could have ever missed Shadow being Relms Father. I was...well..let's see..6th or 7th grade when I first played it, and I figured it out at that age on my first play-through of the game. Granted, I obsessed over Shadow as a character, and any cutscene involving him or his dog Interceptor, I paid extra attention to, but still, I always figured that was one of those "common knowledge" kinda things.

DiscipleofBob
2011-11-16, 04:53 PM
I have to say, I'm kind of confused as to how anyone who has played FFVI could have ever missed Shadow being Relms Father. I was...well..let's see..6th or 7th grade when I first played it, and I figured it out at that age on my first play-through of the game. Granted, I obsessed over Shadow as a character, and any cutscene involving him or his dog Interceptor, I paid extra attention to, but still, I always figured that was one of those "common knowledge" kinda things.

You mean besides the fact that it's never, ever actually said in-game, or that the biggest hint is the fact that one particular Relic can be equipped by only two characters.

The Succubus
2011-11-16, 05:35 PM
Well, you do need a permit to purchase that many ping-pong balls, and I very much doubt that the Chocobo gave its consent beforehand...:smallbiggrin:


....

Please stop breaking my brain. :smallfrown:

DiscipleofBob
2011-11-16, 06:07 PM
....

Please stop breaking my brain. :smallfrown:

And don't forget the Cait Sith/Red XIII scene, both with and without puppets. :smallwink:

Traab
2011-11-16, 06:20 PM
I have to say, I'm kind of confused as to how anyone who has played FFVI could have ever missed Shadow being Relms Father. I was...well..let's see..6th or 7th grade when I first played it, and I figured it out at that age on my first play-through of the game. Granted, I obsessed over Shadow as a character, and any cutscene involving him or his dog Interceptor, I paid extra attention to, but still, I always figured that was one of those "common knowledge" kinda things.

Its possible that I knew it at some point, but keep in mind I first beat the game when it was newly released for the super nintendo. I havent really concentrated much on uncovering every single little tidbit in the subsequent play throughs. And thats really a subtle and not important in the long run thing.

littlebottom
2011-11-16, 07:43 PM
Actually, Sephiroth has 3 theme songs.

Those Chosen By The Planet

Birth Of A God

One-Winged Angel.

Here you go, Those Chosen By The Planet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rV40ypje7o)

Birth Of A God is the one that plays in the first part of the battle, the one against Bizarro Sephiroth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQwQnEfbh0U)

i believe that "chasing the black caped man" this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti_iazvRLD4) was also considered one of his theme songs by square soft (enix now) and that one winged angel was never considered his theme song, just the "final boss battle" song. he inhereted it as his theme after the game.

Starwulf
2011-11-16, 09:44 PM
You mean besides the fact that it's never, ever actually said in-game, or that the biggest hint is the fact that one particular Relic can be equipped by only two characters.

There were several cutscenes that hinted at it, not the least of which that showed the interactions between Interceptor and Relm. It was probably that itself that sealed it inside my mind. For the dog to take such an intimate liking of Relm, told me that she must be Shadows daughter, since no-one else in the game was granted that kind of affection by Interceptor, except Shadow himself. That, along with the Relic did it for me ^^