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ShneekeyTheLost
2011-11-09, 05:01 PM
I suppose SD fixes are so common because while the concept is cool, the execution is execrable. So, here's how I'm going about the 'fix':

1) The role is 'mobile skirmisher', and that's what I'm going to do
2) The flavor is 'shadow-based theme, which I'm also going to do
3) The prerequisites will be appropriate to what the class does
4) Tempted as I am, I will not be using ToB, simply because the Shadow Hand discipline pretty much already does all of this out of the box, without needing a PrC
5) The goal is to make this an actually viable skirmisher with a shadow-based theme with interesting abilities without either enormous feat-tax, or useless abilities.

Shadowdancer

Prerequisites
Skills: Hide 8 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks, Perform (Dance) 8 ranks, Balance 5 ranks, Knowledge (The Planes) 5 ranks
Feats: Dodge

Other: Evasion class ability

Special: Must have made peaceful contact with a denizen of the Plane of Shadow, or have had close contact with the Plane of Shadow (via Shadow Walk, traveling to the Plane of Shadow, or other close encounters with the GM's permission)

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|+0|+0|+2|+0| Uncanny Dodge, Darkvision, Lord of the Dance

2nd|+1|+0|+3|+0| Shadowstep, Sudden Strike +1d6

3rd|+2|+1|+3|+1| Hide in Plain Sight, Shadowed Face, Dance of Deception

4th|+3|+1|+4|+1| Cloak of Shadows, Sudden Strike +2d6

5th|+3|+1|+4|+1| Ebon Eyes, Improved Shadowstep, Dance of Mobility

6th|+4|+2|+5|+2| Shadow Feint, Sudden Strike +3d6

7th|+5|+2|+5|+2| Shadowslice, Darkness, Dance of Shadowed Blades

8th|+6/+1|+2|+6|+2| Shadowslip, Sudden Strike +4d6

9th|+6/+1|+3|+6|+3| Shadowpounce, Dance of Darkness

10th|+7/+2|+3|+7|+3| Shadowform, Sudden Strike +5d5[/table]

Class Skills (6+Int mod): Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficencies: Shadowdancers are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. They are also proficient in Light armor, but not shields.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A Shadowdancer retains Dex bonus to AC even when flat-footed or attacked by an invisible opponent. He loses this ability when immobilized. If the character already has Uncanny Dodge from another class, then he gains Improved Uncanny Dodge, and the levels from all classes with Uncanny Dodge stack for determining the minimum Rogue level required to flank you.

Darkvision (Ex): A Shadowdancer gains Darkvision 60'. If the Shadowdancer already had Darkvision, then the range increases by 30'.

Lord of the Dance (Ex): A Shadowdancer gains an untyped bonus to Perform (Dance) checks equal to his class level. At 3rd level and every odd level thereafter, he gains access to a new Dance. Only one dance may be active at any given time.

Shadowstep (Su): At 2nd level, the Shadowdancer learns how to dance the line between the Prime and the Plane of Shadow. As a Standard action which does not provoke an attack of opportunity, he may teleport short distances. He has a daily pool of 15'/level, and it must be used in 5' increments.

You may only use this ability if you are wearing light or no armor and have at most Medium encumbrance. This ability may not be used to go from or to a square with greater than Shadowy illumination.

Several other class abilities also draw from this pool. If any ability attempts to use more distance than the pool currently has, the ability automatically fails.

At 5th level, he may use this ability as a Move action

Sudden Strike (Ex): A Shadowdancer also learns how to use concealment to his advantage. At 2nd level, he deals +1d6 damage to an opponent who is denied his dex bonus to AC. This increases by +1d6 at every even level. This ability is otherwise identical to the class feature of the Ninja (CAdv) by the same name.

Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide himself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. He cannot, however, hide in his own shadow.

Shadowed Face (Su): By manipulating the shadows around himself, a Shadowdancer can conceal his identity. To use this ability, the shadowdancer must have some form of headgear or standing in an area of shadowy illumination or darker. The shadowdancer makes a Bluff check vs the opponent's Spot check. If he succeeds, the opponent cannot positively identify the shadowdancer.

This ability also allows the shadowdancer to conceal any Somatic spell components. If the Bluff check vs opponent's Spot check succeeds, the opponent cannot identify the spell being cast, and thus cannot (amoung other things) counterspell it.

This is considered to be a magical shadow effect, so Darkvision and similar effects do not penetrate it.

Dance of Deception While using the Dance of Deception, a Shadowdancer may replace a Bluff check with a Perform (Dance) check to feint. If he does so, then he also may feint as a Move action. In addition, once per round, if you are Fighting Defensively and are hit in combat, you may make a Perform (Dance) check vs an opponent's attack roll. If you succeed, you manage to dance away from the full brunt of his attack, negating any bonus damage from Power Attack.

A Shadowdancer may only use and benefit from one dance per round.

Cloak of Shadows (Su): By reaching into his connection with the Plane of Shadow, he pulls a cloak of shadows around himself. This ability can be used as a Swift action, and grants the Shadowdancer Concealment for 1+ (Cha mod) rounds. Rounds in which he uses an ability that draws from his Shadowstep pool do not count against this total. This is considered to be a magical darkness effect, so Darkvision and similar effects do not penetrate it.

This ability uses up 5' of his Shadowstep pool.

Ebon Eyes (Su): At 5th level, a Shadowdancer may use his Darkvision even in areas of magical darkness.

Dance of Mobility (Ex): A Shadowdancer who uses this dance may use a Perform (Dance) check instead of a Tumble check for bypassing AoO due to movement. If he does so, he also ignores difficult terrain penalties, both in movement and the penalty to the tumble (now Perform(Dance)) check.

A Shadowdancer may only use and benefit from one dance per round.

Shadow Feint (Su): A Shadowdancer learns how to manipulate shadows to conceal his attacks. At 5th level, as a swift action, the Shadowdancer may use this ability. Make a Feint (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#feint) check. If sucessful, the opponent is considered to be flat-footed against all of your attacks until the end of your turn.

This ability uses up 5' of his Shadowstep pool

Shadowslice (Su): As part of a full attack action, a Shadowdancer may adjust his position around his opponent. Choose an opponent whom the shadowdancer is already adjacent to. You may move to any empty square adjacent to that opponent. This may be done at any point in your full attack, even between attacks, but must be done before the end of your action.

By suddenly changing the angle of your attack, this ability also makes your opponent flat-footed against your attacks until his next turn.

This ability uses up 5'+(distance traveled) of his Shadowstep pool.

Dance of Shadowy Blades (Ex): When a Shadowdancer uses this dance, he may make a Perform (Dance) check when he makes an attack. He gains an untyped bonus on damage against that opponent for the duration of the round. If the result is 15 or less, the bonus is +1. For every additional 5 points beyond that, the damage bonus increases by +1.

This bonus damage is considered to be precision-based damage.

A Shadowdancer may only use and benefit from one dance per round.

Darkness (Sp): As the spell of the same name except as follows, as a spell-like ability, usable at-will, with an effective caster level equal to his character level. Only one area of darkness may be produced at a time. Creating a second area of darkness dismisses any previously made ones.

This ability may be used to snuff out a mundane light source instead of creating an area of darkness. Once a light source has gone out, it will need to be re-lit. This is an Instantaneous effect.

This ability may be used to counter a light-based magical effect. It may be used to Counterspell any light-producing spell if an action is readied to do so, with an effective caster level equal to his character level.

It has an effective spell level equal to 1/2 his class level, for purposes of dispelling light spells already in place.

Shadowslip (Su): If an area effect is placed, and the shadowdancer is within the area, as an immediate action which may be taken before a saving throw for the effect is needed, he may shadowstep to just outside the area of effect.

This ability uses up 10'+(distance traveled) of his shadowstep pool.

For example, a wizard attempts to cast Stinking Cloud centered on the Shadowdancer. As an immediate action, before he needs to make the Fort save, he can teleport to just outside the Cloud. This will use up 10' + 20' (the distance between him and the edge of the cloud) for a total of 30' of his Shadowstep pool.

Shadowpounce (Su): As a full-round action, a Shadowdancer may use his Shadowstep ability to move, and make a full attack at the end. Since this is a full-round action, you may also use Shadowslice in conjunction with this ability, if you have enough movement left in your Shadowstep pool

This ability uses up an additional 10' of movement from his Shadowstep Pool, and the movement from the shadow step is used up normally.

Dance of Darkness (Su): While this dance is active, once per turn, as an immediate action, the Shadowdancer may make a Perform (Dance) check to teleport a short distance. If the result is 20 or less, he may teleport 5'. If the result is 21-25, he may teleport 10'. For each additional 5 points, the range increases 5', to a maximum of 25'.

If this is done in response to an attack, then that attack has a 50% miss chance.

Unlike Shadowstep, this is considered to be a Dimension Door effect, and when you use this ability, you may take no further actions until your next round.

Shadowform (Su): The shadowdancer becomes one with the shadows, gaining the Incorporeal subtype. While in this form, he may not move into any area greater than shadowy illumination. If the square he is currently in becomes illuminated to greater than shadowy illumination, the effect ends immediately and he is Stunned for 1 round.

While in Shadowform, you may not make normal attacks, however you can make an incorporeal touch as an attack action to inflict one negative level. Every negative level so inflicted uses up 5' from his Shadowstep pool.

This ability uses up 5' from his Shadowstep pool per round it is used. If he empties his Shadowstep pool, and become material while inside a material object (such as a solid wall), you are shunted off to the nearest open space and take 1d6 points of damage per 5 feet that you so travel.

Questions? Comments? Critique?

flabort
2011-11-09, 08:04 PM
How much does shadowed face affect spellcraft DCs by? It's not mentioned.
With Shadow slice, how does that work in a game without Facing? Is the opponent considered facing you at the start of the action? Can it be used more than once/round (Say during a Cleave chain, to move about)?
Same with Shadow Pounce. How does it work when D&D is normally a game without facing?

I see it doesn't have the Summon Shadow ability, which while I guess isn't the most Iconic SD ability ever, I would expect would at least appear in a fix.

Not even ANY feat prerequisites? The Evasion prereq pretty well guarantees a rogue entry (Or monk), which while I guess it's a nice feature, is pretty limiting.

Looks nice. I'll be hanging around to see what comes of PEACHING it.

nedz
2011-11-09, 08:15 PM
Nice work, but where are the dance steps we were promised ?
Why did we spend so much effort in performing them ?
Why is this word written on the tin ?

Its a nice class, but no Thriller.:smallcool:

Eldest
2011-11-09, 08:25 PM
I suppose SD fixes are so common because while the concept is cool, the execution is execrable. So, here's how I'm going about the 'fix':

1) The role is 'mobile skirmisher', and that's what I'm going to do
2) The flavor is 'shadow-based theme, which I'm also going to do
3) The prerequisites will be appropriate to what the class does
4) Tempted as I am, I will not be using ToB, simply because the Shadow Hand discipline pretty much already does all of this out of the box, without needing a PrC
5) The goal is to make this an actually viable skirmisher with a shadow-based theme with interesting abilities without either enormous feat-tax, or useless abilities.

Shadowdancer

Prerequisites
Skills: Hide 8 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks, Perform (Dance) 8 ranks, Balance 5 ranks, Knowledge (The Planes) 5 ranks That's a lot of skills, and sort of a strange assortment. Rogues (the main target for the prestige class, no?) can't even take all of them basically. I personally think the Know:planes should be dropped.

Other: Evasion class ability Now the other core class that could get into this (bard) can't. Are you sure you want that?

Special: Must have made peaceful contact with a denizen of the Plane of Shadow, or have had close contact with the Plane of Shadow (via Shadow Walk, traveling to the Plane of Shadow, or other close encounters with the GM's permission)

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|+0|+0|+2|+0| Uncanny Dodge, Darkvision

2nd|+1|+0|+3|+0| Shadowstep, Sudden Strike +1d6

3rd|+2|+1|+3|+1| Hide in Plain Sight, Shadowed Face

4th|+3|+1|+4|+1| Cloak of Shadows, Sudden Strike +2d6

5th|+3|+1|+4|+1| Ebon Eyes, Improved Shadowstep

6th|+4|+2|+5|+2| Shadow Feint, Sudden Strike +3d6

7th|+5|+2|+5|+2| Shadowslice, Darkness

8th|+6/+1|+2|+6|+2| Shadowslip, Sudden Strike +4d6

9th|+6/+1|+3|+6|+3| Shadowpounce

10th|+7/+2|+3|+7|+3| Shadowform[/table]

Class Skills (6+Int mod): Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficencies: Shadowdancers are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. They are also proficient in Light armor, but not shields.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A Shadowdancer retains Dex bonus to AC even when flat-footed or attacked by an invisible opponent. He loses this ability when immobilized. If the character already has Uncanny Dodge from another class, then he gains Improved Uncanny Dodge, and the levels from all classes with Uncanny Dodge stack for determining the minimum Rogue level required to flank you. Thematic, good.

Darkvision (Ex): A Shadowdancer gains Darkvision 60'. If the Shadowdancer already had Darkvision, then the range increases by 30'. Also a thematic choice.

Shadowstep (Su): At 2nd level, the Shadowdancer learns how to dance the line between the Prime and the Plane of Shadow. As a Standard action which does not provoke an attack of opportunity, he may teleport short distances. He has a daily pool of 15'/level, and it must be used in 5' increments. 15'/level might need tweaking, but that's the sort of think you need to find out with playtesting.

You may only use this ability if you are wearing light or no armor and have at most Medium encumbrance. This ability may not be used to go from or to a square with greater than Shadowy illumination.

Several other class abilities also draw from this pool. If any ability attempts to use more distance than the pool currently has, the ability automatically fails.

At 5th level, he may use this ability as a Move action

Sudden Strike (Ex): A Shadowdancer also learns how to use concealment to his advantage. At 2nd level, he deals +1d6 damage to an opponent who is denied his dex bonus to AC. This increases by +1d6 at every even level. This ability is otherwise identical to the class feature of the Ninja (CAdv) by the same name.

Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide himself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. He cannot, however, hide in his own shadow. It's a strong ability, but it fits. No problems here.

Shadowed Face (Su): By manipulating the shadows around himself, a Shadowdancer can conceal his identity. To use this ability, the shadowdancer must have some form of headgear or standing in an area of shadowy illumination or darker. The shadowdancer makes a Bluff check vs the opponent's Spot check. If he succeeds, the opponent cannot positively identify the shadowdancer. No problems here either.

This ability also allows the shadowdancer to conceal any Somatic spell components, making the spellcraft check to identify the spell he is casting more difficult.

This is considered to be a magical shadow effect, so Darkvision and similar effects do not penetrate it.

Cloak of Shadows (Su): By reaching into his connection with the Plane of Shadow, he pulls a cloak of shadows around himself. This ability can be used as a Swift action, and grants the Shadowdancer Concealment for 1+ (Cha mod) rounds. Rounds in which he uses an ability that draws from his Shadowstep pool do not count against this total. This is considered to be a magical darkness effect, so Darkvision and similar effects do not penetrate it.

This ability uses up 5' of his Shadowstep pool.

Ebon Eyes (Su): At 5th level, a Shadowdancer may use his Darkvision even in areas of magical darkness.

Shadow Feint (Su): A Shadowdancer learns how to manipulate shadows to conceal his attacks. At 5th level, as a swift action, the Shadowdancer may use this ability. Make a Feint (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#feint) check. If sucessful, the opponent is considered to be flat-footed against all of your attacks until the end of your turn.

This ability uses up 5' of his Shadowstep pool

Shadowslice (Su): As part of a full attack action, a Shadowdancer may adjust his position around his opponent. Choose an opponent whom the shadowdancer is already adjacent to. You may move to any empty square adjacent to that opponent. This may be done at any point in your full attack, even between attacks, but must be done before the end of your action.

If this movement takes you out his line of sight (for most humanoids, behind him), then your opponent is also considered to be flat-footed against your attacks until his next turn. Line of Sight stuff is sorta difficult to figure out. You might just want to give him the flat-footed thing automatically.

This ability uses up 5'+(distance traveled) of his Shadowstep pool.

Darkness (Sp): As the spell of the same name except as follows, as a spell-like ability, usable at-will, with an effective caster level equal to his character level. Only one area of darkness may be produced at a time. Creating a second area of darkness dismisses any previously made ones.

This ability may be used to snuff out a mundane light source instead of creating an area of darkness. Once a light source has gone out, it will need to be re-lit. This is an Instantaneous effect.

This ability may be used to counter a light-based magical effect. It may be used to Counterspell any light-producing spell if an action is readied to do so, with an effective caster level equal to his character level.

It has an effective spell level equal to 1/2 his class level, for purposes of dispelling light spells already in place.

Shadowslip (Su): If an area effect is placed, and the shadowdancer is within the area, as an immediate action which may be taken before a saving throw for the effect is needed, he may shadowstep to just outside the area of effect.

This ability uses up 10'+(distance traveled) of his shadowstep pool.

For example, a wizard attempts to cast Stinking Cloud centered on the Shadowdancer. As an immediate action, before he needs to make the Fort save, he can teleport to just outside the Cloud. This will use up 10' + 20' (the distance between him and the edge of the cloud) for a total of 30' of his Shadowstep pool.

Shadowpounce (Su): As a full-round action, a Shadowdancer may use his Shadowstep ability to move, and make a full attack at the end. If the square you arrive in is not in the opponent's line of sight, then he is flat-footed against your attacks until his next turn. See above for the Line of Sight stuff.

This ability uses up an additional 10' of movement from his Shadowstep Pool, and the movement from the shadow step is used up normally.

Shadowform (Su): The shadowdancer becomes one with the shadows, gaining the Incorporeal subtype. While in this form, he may not move into any area greater than shadowy illumination. If the square he is currently in becomes illuminated to greater than shadowy illumination, the effect ends immediately and he is Stunned for 1 round. You need to define what action is used to assume the shadowform.

While in Shadowform, you may not make normal attacks, however you can make an incorporeal touch as an attack action to inflict one negative level. Every negative level so inflicted uses up 5' from his Shadowstep pool.

This ability uses up 5' from his Shadowstep pool per round it is used. If he empties his Shadowstep pool, and become material while inside a material object (such as a solid wall), you are shunted off to the nearest open space and take 1d6 points of damage per 5 feet that you so travel.

Questions? Comments? Critique?

Comments are in green.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-11-09, 09:16 PM
How much does shadowed face affect spellcraft DCs by? It's not mentioned.Ahh, this was a mistake on my part, which will be fixed shortly.


With Shadow slice, how does that work in a game without Facing? Is the opponent considered facing you at the start of the action? Can it be used more than once/round (Say during a Cleave chain, to move about)?
Same with Shadow Pounce. How does it work when D&D is normally a game without facing?

If your game does not use facing, then simply declare that it also makes your opponent flat-footed against your attacks until his next turn, since you are no longer where you where and your opponent doesn't have time to identify where the attacks are coming from and respond to them appropriately. In fact, I'm probably going to go back and edit this in to make things more simple.

Shadowslice can only be used in conjunction with a full attack action. Therefore, unless you can get multiple full attacks in one turn, you're probably only going to be able to use it once a turn.

Likewise with Shadowpounce. It's a full-round action. So unless you're able to get multiple full-round actions, you're not going to be able to use it more than once a round.

If you're breaking the action economy to the point where you have multiple full-round actions, the game has bigger problems than these abilities being spammed.


I see it doesn't have the Summon Shadow ability, which while I guess isn't the most Iconic SD ability ever, I would expect would at least appear in a fix. Quite bluntly... it's the silliest ability ever. I've never seen a situation in which it contributed meaningfully, not even as a flanking partner.

Plus, this class is based on a stealthy and mobile individual... where does summoning a pathetically weak pet come into this archetype? I suppose I could put it in, but... why?

Instead of summoning a shadow, you get to become a shadow, which I think is much cooler.


Not even ANY feat prerequisites? The Evasion prereq pretty well guarantees a rogue entry (Or monk), which while I guess it's a nice feature, is pretty limiting. Or Ranger, or Swordsage, or Scout... or after dipping in any of the half dozen or so PrC's that grant Evasion... or even a two-level dip in rogue, monk, or scout then going on with something else.

There's plenty of ways to get Evasion. I just worded it the way I did to keep people from using the ring to bypass prerequisites.

As far as no feat requirements... look again at the skill requirements. Yes, I'm not horridly punishing you by requiring three worthless feats. However, unless you have a very high Int mod, you're pretty much going to end up being a skillmonkey class to get into here because of the skill requirements.


That's a lot of skills, and sort of a strange assortment. Rogues (the main target for the prestige class, no?) can't even take all of them basically. I personally think the Know:planes should be dropped. I would disagree with this for two reasons: Cross-class ranks and multiclassing. Also, Planar Ranger meets all these requirements handily without any dipping at all.

Knowledge (The Planes) is required because the class literally ties itself into the plane of shadow, and pulls essence from it, and manipulates the link with it to move around. It's the very foundation of the mechanics of the class.

With cross-class ranks, you can hit 5 ranks by level 6. That's a perfectly acceptable entry, only one level later at most.


Now the other core class that could get into this (bard) can't. Are you sure you want that?Two-level dip in Rogue? That also nets you most of the skill requirements at the same time. Ranger can get in when he gets Evasion at level 9, and is a good class for a TWF ranger, what with Shadow Pounce and TWFing and Sudden Strike giving amazing synergy

Besides, who plays straight Core anymore?


Nice work, but where are the dance steps we were promised ?
Why did we spend so much effort in performing them ?
Why is this word written on the tin ?

Its a nice class, but no Thriller.:smallcool:

See also: Shadowstep, Shadowslice, and Shadowpounce.

flabort
2011-11-09, 09:28 PM
One more note: If it were to really dance, perhaps certain actions should require Preform (Dance) checks? Maybe one or two little tiny bonuses to something for it?

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-11-09, 09:34 PM
One more note: If it were to really dance, perhaps certain actions should require Preform (Dance) checks? Maybe one or two little tiny bonuses to something for it?

Hmmm... since most classes don't get Perform (Dance), I didn't want to screw over everyone who doesn't have levels in Bard, since cross-class ranks are good enough to get 5 ranks, but not enough to keep up with sliding-scale DC's.

Hey, I have an idea... how about something that runs mechanically similar to Knowedge Devotion where a sliding scale DC Knowledge (Perform) check will give them a bonus to attack damage? Maybe make it precision-based damage to balance it out?

flabort
2011-11-09, 09:40 PM
Sure, a Perform (Dance) check to get better attacks on a sliding DC would be good. Dance as a free action, or something, take 5' out of the pool, and get a +X damage (or to hit, with power attack) against a single target for X rounds.

But that should be on the higher end of the class. Something similar to get a bonus to Hide should come early, and another for a bonus to AC mid class; and you can't use more than one of these three in the same round.

And maybe you can add your shadow dancer levels as a bonus to these specific checks, or something. Incentive to keep taking more.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-11-09, 10:03 PM
Sure, a Perform (Dance) check to get better attacks on a sliding DC would be good. Dance as a free action, or something, take 5' out of the pool, and get a +X damage (or to hit, with power attack) against a single target for X rounds.

But that should be on the higher end of the class. Something similar to get a bonus to Hide should come early, and another for a bonus to AC mid class; and you can't use more than one of these three in the same round.

And maybe you can add your shadow dancer levels as a bonus to these specific checks, or something. Incentive to keep taking more.

Well, they get enough bonuses to hiding, what with HiPS and all, so I did something thematic and a little different.

Dance of Deception... feinting is fun
Dance of Mobility... because the feat Mobility sucks, and this gives them something else to use their ranks in Perform (Dance)
Dance of Shadowed Blades... as we discussed
Dance of Shadows... basically the Shadowmagic Mystery Flicker, using a Perform (Dance) check to determine the duration.

flabort
2011-11-09, 10:23 PM
Well, dance of shadows is cool. But... the wording doesn't really fit. So, you can teleport, as an immediate action, every round it's active? only once (per dance check)? several times a round? And it's the only dance with a duration.

Dance of Deception, when you can feint with every attack... they'll pump perform (dance), then anyone who hasn't pumped Sense Motive will always lose Dex to AC against them. And so it encourages SA builds. Or something. This is awesome, but a bit breakable with Improved feint.

Dance of mobility is awesome. I don't really see too much to nitpick there.

And while I would have made Dance of Shadowed Blades based on the enemy's HD, or dex, or something, I realize that a flat-but-scaling DC is probably safer, more reliable, and more balanced.

So I like the dances. Just, the first is a little abuseable, and the last is awkwardly worded. Since the SD gets other abilities the same levels, anyways, the first doesn't have to be that strong. Needs a little adjusting. Just a little.

Finally, shouldn't it be getting Sudden Strike +5d6 at 10th? Or maybe you should state "every even level, except the last", or something.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-11-09, 10:39 PM
Well, dance of shadows is cool. But... the wording doesn't really fit. So, you can teleport, as an immediate action, every round it's active? only once (per dance check)? several times a round? And it's the only dance with a duration. Once per round, yes it is the only dance with a duration (the rest are like stances) although I can change this to have your Dance check be the limiting factor of range, which would probably work better.

EDIT: Cleaned it up, and changed things around.


Dance of Deception, when you can feint with every attack... they'll pump perform (dance), then anyone who hasn't pumped Sense Motive will always lose Dex to AC against them. And so it encourages SA builds. Or something. This is awesome, but a bit breakable with Improved feint. Keep in mind that opponents get their BAB added to their Sense Motive, so it's not quite as easy as all that. However you are right, it is within dipping range, and can be quite broken with certain builds. I'll have to either move it or change it.

EDIT: Removed the synergy with Improved Feint. Added in a defensive ability. While potentially strong, it is only effective against opponents who use Power Attack, and you have to be fighting defensively to take advantage of it, so I think it balances out.


Dance of mobility is awesome. I don't really see too much to nitpick there.

And while I would have made Dance of Shadowed Blades based on the enemy's HD, or dex, or something, I realize that a flat-but-scaling DC is probably safer, more reliable, and more balanced.

So I like the dances. Just, the first is a little abuseable, and the last is awkwardly worded. Since the SD gets other abilities the same levels, anyways, the first doesn't have to be that strong. Needs a little adjusting. Just a little.Agreed. I'll go in and clean it up a bit.


Finally, shouldn't it be getting Sudden Strike +5d6 at 10th? Or maybe you should state "every even level, except the last", or something.
Typo fix'd, yes they get Sudden Strike +5d6 at level 10.

BobVosh
2011-11-10, 01:24 AM
I like it a lot, but I can't help but feel the capstone shadow ability is kinda...pathetic. 1 negative level per turn at best, at level 15? Seems really weak, and the other use of sneaking around is ok but not really much of an improvement seeing how it already has HiPS and hopefully a good hide check.

DeAnno
2011-11-10, 01:25 AM
The duration on Cloak of Shadows seems overly fiddly to remember, and it's odd to key it off 1+Cha when nothing else in the class works that way (Perform Dance is Cha based, but a bad Cha doesn't ruin you there at all). I think a more elegant solution might be to make it last for as many rounds as you have levels in Shadowdancer.

If you're concerned that people shouldn't have to pay from their shadow pool to keep it up while in combat, one solution is to just have it activate automatically and for free whenever they use any of their other shadow pool abilities.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-11-10, 07:10 AM
I like it a lot, but I can't help but feel the capstone shadow ability is kinda...pathetic. 1 negative level per turn at best, at level 15? Seems really weak, and the other use of sneaking around is ok but not really much of an improvement seeing how it already has HiPS and hopefully a good hide check.

Incorporeal subtype is fairly nasty. First off, if they don't have magic weapons, you're immune to them. Period. Second, if they DO have a magic weapon, if it isn't ghost touch, they have a 50% miss chance anyways. And as we all know, miss chance is much better than AC for defending yourself.

Furthermore, you may have missed the part where the incorporeal touch is an attack action. Meaning you can TWF it and get some fairly ridiculous negative level generation going.

BobVosh
2011-11-10, 07:31 AM
I read an attack action as a standard action. If you allow the full BAB swing + TWF to do this, then I retract my statement entirely. It is very useful in combat.
Also on the PC side I suppose incorporeal is more useful than than on the monster side, as not every monster uses magic weapons.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-11-12, 11:50 PM
I read an attack action as a standard action. If you allow the full BAB swing + TWF to do this, then I retract my statement entirely. It is very useful in combat.
Also on the PC side I suppose incorporeal is more useful than than on the monster side, as not every monster uses magic weapons.

It also gives you a 50% chance of not being affected by a given non-force spell, which is very handy against things like Enervation.

Also, any critter which has DR/magic can bypass DR/magic with their claws, however it only is treated as magic for the purpose of bypassing DR/magic... not for being able to strike incorporeal targets. So it's basically immunity to anything without magical equipment or buffs... pretty strong.

Anyone else have any questions, comment, feedback, constructive criticism, or anything else they'd like to add?

flabort
2011-11-13, 01:10 PM
While I still think there should be 1 feat prereq still...

This is very, very nice. A good fix.

Not quite as dippable as the original, since now you need 3 levels to get THAT feature, although 3 levels does get some pretty sweet stuff (extra). Fortunately, the rest of the class is enough to encourage taking the rest, and if you take 3 levels of any class, you're usually planning on more anyways.