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Killer Angel
2011-11-11, 06:23 AM
in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222213) thread, we discuss 'bout epic fight / duel scenes.
Someone (Comicshorse) cited the battle of Rourke's Drift in the movie 'Zulu', which, indeed, is an impressive one, but it's OT for that thread.


So I think that the argument "most epic mass battle in media" deserves it's own thread...
Given that (imo) CGI cannot beat the magnificence of thousands real peoples, I would cite the battles of Waterloo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97dBfdNrf9A) and Gettysburg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGZ-QU4iDds) in the linked films.

And you? what are your favourite epic battles (all media included and not limited to real past battles)?

Radar
2011-11-14, 01:56 PM
This thread is in dire need of attention!

I allways liked this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80nfGC9ekec&feature=related) depiction of one of the grand medieval battles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grunwald). As for a movie made in 1960 it's quite impressive and horse stunts are amazing.

This (http://www.panoramaraclawicka.pl/en/what_to_see.html) painting is epic by all accounts - 15 x 114 meters of extremely detailed warfare. More precisely it's a cyclorama, so one has an additional experience of being in the middle of it all.

Killer Angel
2011-11-18, 03:18 AM
This thread is in dire need of attention!


Indeed it was. And still is. :smalltongue:



I allways liked this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80nfGC9ekec&feature=related)
This (http://www.panoramaraclawicka.pl/en/what_to_see.html) painting is epic by all accounts

Nice ones!

Let's change the focus, I'll raise with a SF battle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJHtgJjaA3I)... :smallbiggrin:

Fan
2011-11-18, 08:28 AM
And I humbly submit this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Gm6czdcp3k).

250,000,001 units participated in this battle, 250,000,000 of them were on the losing side.

Radar
2011-11-18, 10:38 AM
SF and anime you say...
How about space mecha (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEFODMGOzFE&feature=related)? To be precise: battlecruisers turning into (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kD1LlDhItF0) giant space mecha (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pOC-NmCxcY)?

Apart from that, Freespace 2 is still being enriched with new models, campaigns and whatnot. Since computers of today can handle more then those back from the original release, battles can be much bigger in scope: 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HpaWcDX0f4&feature=related), 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE1KFiTQp6s&feature=related).

Avilan the Grey
2011-11-18, 04:03 PM
And I humbly submit this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Gm6czdcp3k).

250,000,001 units participated in this battle, 250,000,000 of them were on the losing side.

That might be so, but you don't actually see much of the battle. To me it's just a lot of screaming, weird lighting effects, young girls and boring.

TRULY Epic battle scenes:

Intro battle in Gladiator
Battles of Helms Deep and Pelenor Fields, both fro the LOTR trilogy
The Reaver / Alliance space battle in Serenity?
Braveheart in general
Bombing of Pearl Harbor in Tora! Tora!
The big charge in Glory
Henry V
Saving Private Ryan

And many many more.

Tengu_temp
2011-11-18, 08:32 PM
Not even 10 responses yet and people are already disparaging others' choices. Classy.

Avilan the Grey
2011-11-19, 03:17 AM
Not even 10 responses yet and people are already disparaging others' choices. Classy.

Sorry, that came out worse than I meant. I don't enjoy japanese cartoons for the most part, their... focus and tempo I guess you can say irks me beyond belief. I never get an "Epic" or "Awesome" feeling from a clip like that, because of several things such as weird tempo, bad effects, odd distracting design choices etc.

Erts
2011-11-19, 10:53 AM
It was mentioned in the other thread, but...
Watership Down vs Efrafa.
So... Epic.
Also, good ol' LOTR.

Fan
2011-11-19, 11:04 AM
Sorry, that came out worse than I meant. I don't enjoy japanese cartoons for the most part, their... focus and tempo I guess you can say irks me beyond belief. I never get an "Epic" or "Awesome" feeling from a clip like that, because of several things such as weird tempo, bad effects, odd distracting design choices etc.

For some reason that sounds worse than the initial statement.

However, I respect and acknowledge your tastes, I merely ask that you do not go out of your way to state your dislike of mine.

Avilan the Grey
2011-11-19, 12:29 PM
For some reason that sounds worse than the initial statement.

However, I respect and acknowledge your tastes, I merely ask that you do not go out of your way to state your dislike of mine.

That's why apologized for my first statement. I am not sure how the second statement can be worse, since that is actually a comprehensive and reasonable written reason why I do not find the clip epic? Most people, me included, prefer "the timing is off" to "dude, that suxxorz!"

Liffguard
2011-11-19, 05:27 PM
One of my favourite is from The Heroes by Joe Abercrombie. Now that I think about it, it would also fit in with the thread about individual duels. The first real battle of the Heroes is told from individual but successive perspectives. Each time one of the viewpoint characters dies the perspective jumps to his killer, until he is killed and so on. It was a really cool way of giving the audience an overview for the scale of the conflict whilst also keeping the action close and personal.

Avilan the Grey
2011-11-19, 05:42 PM
Not a battle, but the scene of the invading fleet from Troy is amazing, amusing and awe-inspiring*. It is also the only thing good about the movie.

*Although I always hear Eddie Izzard's Troy monologue in my head (paraphrased):

"The Greeks are coming!"
"How many?"
"...All of them, I think..."

Killer Angel
2011-11-20, 12:05 PM
[QUOTE=Radar;12239212]SF and anime you say...
How about space mecha (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEFODMGOzFE&feature=related)?

I'm more for things ala "Gouf Vs Gundam MS 8th team (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkhDSCo3X_8&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL35F0BDEB921E2689)" :smallcool:

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-20, 01:19 PM
Going with the logic that real counts for many orders of magnitude more epic then anything in fiction I submit

The Battle Off Samar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_off_Samar) 25 October 1944

One of four major battles in WWII's Battle Of Leyte Gulf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Leyte_Gulf) itself just about the most epic thing to happen at sea, ever. However the Battle Off Samar stands out to me.

Having successfully pulled a fast one on the American high command the center strength of the Japanese Navy bore down on a rear task force of the American fleet named Taffy 3.

The Americans: A tiny force of 3 Destroyers, 4 Destroyer Escorts, with Air Support protecting 6 escort carriers and assorted strategic positions.

The Japanese: The center of their power, 4 Battleships (including the Yamato), 6 Heavy Cruisers, 2 Light Cruisers, 11 Destroyers, and kamikaze aircraft.

And the Japanese have the advantage of surprise.

Guess who wins?

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2011-11-20, 04:01 PM
6 escort carriers[/I]

Guess who wins?

Way too one-sided. These guys win, easily.

Radar
2011-11-20, 04:20 PM
I call your see battle and rise with Battle of Wizna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Wizna) (just look at the disproportion of force). Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epeQwq-aYV0) is a suitable song about it.

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-20, 04:36 PM
Way too one-sided. These guys win, easily.

I would like to address this total misconception. Thanks to Hollywood History (and well tactical analysis really doesn't help you high-school education much) air power does not dominate for the reason you might think it does.

First off naval warships are tough. Yes you can get lucky but battleships have been nuked and survived with minimal damage. Pearl Harbor you say, most of the ships there went back into service. Also aircraft carry fairly minimal weapons compared to ships, particularly in those days when a plane would carry one torpedo if it was even the proper type of plane. There's a decent chance of a ship taking a torpedo and keeping on the fight, though they will obviously have to be repaired afterward and be out for awhile.

The advantage of air power in Naval combat is in range. You can strike from a much longer distance nullifying the entire large canons of the day because they literally have nothing to hit. Its basically the death of a thousand cuts, combined with a very "safe" way to do battle. WWII invented naval battle where fleets never even saw each other. However you should note combine with my first point all this is largely negated should you manage to surprise your enemy and close within range of surface guns.

Exactly like happened off Samar.

Now mind you the air power was still critical, the American planes outnumbered the Japanese planes by 13 to 1. However THIS was only achieved because Taffy 3 could get support from other task forces in the area. And despite air superiority... the Americans took savage obliterating causalities.

They only won because those few tiny tins cans managed to raise so much hell and confusion punching above their weight class (destroyers beating heavy cruisers) the Japanese admiral got cold feet and retreated. Basically made such badasses of themselves that the Japanese couldn't take it.

The USS Johnston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Johnston_%28DD-557%29) got the Japanese to salute her before she went down. And that ship and skipper alone had enough BAMF stamped into their hide for any ten fictional stories you care to name.


I call your see battle and rise with Battle of Wizna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Wizna) (just look at the disproportion of force). Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epeQwq-aYV0) is a suitable song about it.

Nothing quite like a epic last stand. My hats off to the Poles there.

Most Americans have not the foggiest clue about how just about everything east of Berlin in that period of history puts the everything in the other direction to shame in sheer terms of scale for whatever two sides you care to name.

I'm not going to argue Armies to Navies though.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2011-11-20, 04:58 PM
Oh, I know, I was just being facetious.

Tengu_temp
2011-11-20, 11:45 PM
I call your see battle and rise with Battle of Wizna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Wizna) (just look at the disproportion of force). Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epeQwq-aYV0) is a suitable song about it.

Yeah, Poland has a history of doing stuff like this. And hell yeah, I really like that song. And for a battle with a more uplifting result from Polish history... The Miracle at the Vistula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Warsaw_%281920%29).

As for fictional battles... I really love the battle at Helm's Deep in Two Towers. Possibly the most epic large-scale movie battle I've ever seen. In comparison, the Fields of Pellenor feel lackluster... But I will always claim that, while Return of the King is the best of the LotR books, it's also the weakest of the movies.

The battle at Teppelin in Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is really awesome, even if it's short and quickly proceeds into the duel between Simon and Lordgenome. Which is awesome as well, but fits more into the other thread.

Killer Angel
2011-11-22, 03:44 AM
I would like to address this total misconception. Thanks to Hollywood History (and well tactical analysis really doesn't help you high-school education much) air power does not dominate for the reason you might think it does.


While this is true, and I don't want to diminish USA's badassery in this fight, at Leyte Gulf, Japan was using kamikaze tactics. This alone tells how desperate was their military situation.
I find more impressive Midway, when things were still somehow uncertain.

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-22, 04:29 PM
While this is true, and I don't want to diminish USA's badassery in this fight, at Leyte Gulf, Japan was using kamikaze tactics. This alone tells how desperate was their military situation.
I find more impressive Midway, when things were still somehow uncertain.

Midway was a (with hindsight) rather ill conceived attack by the Japanese and the Americans made them pay for their mistakes. Its an entirely open question what would have occurred had the sizable majority of the Japanese forces sent that did not even take part in the battle had been in position to support the Japanese carriers. Looking at it Midway should have resulted in American victory given the forces involved and that the Americans knew it was coming via code breaking. And while a turning point since it represented the first conclusive victory by the Americans however turning point is somewhat relative.

While battered and coming out with a loss the Japanese forces are by no means broken, and there's a lot of months between Midway and Leyte Gulf. Once were talking what if there's plenty of other places to ask questions. A good one would be what if the Americans hadn't managed to assasinate Admiral Yamamoto for example?

Now yes by Leyte Gulf its more a question of when not if from a historical perspective. However from that same perspective Japan can be said to have erred badly by challenging the USA to begin with, as it was never consider even by them they would beat America so much as force a capitulation and hold onto territory. As the Americans, even if pushed out of the Pacific, always had the hypothetical capacity to keep coming back.

Which is not to say that hypothetical should be translated into actual assurance. Leyte Gulf in general is a very last stand-ish operation by the Japanese in general. Given the demonstrable idiocy of Admiral Halsey in the battle (which made the Battle Off Samar happen to begin with) I would not consider Leyte Gulf on the whole a sure thing. Given the scope of the battle had it been lost particularly had it been heavily lost... things get very unpredictable from there. Samar in particular in that context is a great what-if scenario given that the it comes off like a game of chicken where the Japanese blinked.

And I single out Samar because its a total mismatch that should have been an American defeat by all reasonable measures, which while less important then Midway, Philippine Sea, or other battles is hugely impressive for those involved to have accomplished. Its the unexpected results that are perhaps the essence of heroism and therefore more "epic" in my mind.

Killer Angel
2011-11-24, 03:57 AM
snip

Agreed.


Its the unexpected results that are perhaps the essence of heroism and therefore more "epic" in my mind.

Going on personal, I tend to find more "epic", the act made when you're bound to lose.
Take this battle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXCzC9aJaPU&feature=related), and compare it to this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcjmYVdJmwU&feature=related).
They both were truly heroic and badass, but, in my mind, the first one was more "we must resist just 'til the reinforcement arrival. And they will arrive, we're winning the war". The second one, was "we will sacrifice ourselves to gain time. The hope it's for our cause, not for us"... and thus more Epic in my mind.


And now, here's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyrPzy6y_IA) another good mass battle scene. :smallsmile:

Avilan the Grey
2011-11-24, 05:54 AM
Agreed.



Going on personal, I tend to find more "epic", the act made when you're bound to lose.
Take this battle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXCzC9aJaPU&feature=related), and compare it to this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcjmYVdJmwU&feature=related).
They both were truly heroic and badass, but, in my mind, the first one was more "we must resist just 'til the reinforcement arrival. And they will arrive, we're winning the war". The second one, was "we will sacrifice ourselves to gain time. The hope it's for our cause, not for us"... and thus more Epic in my mind.


And now, here's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyrPzy6y_IA) another good mass battle scene. :smallsmile:

Well to me the first one is more epic because I prefer battles where the underdog is both winning, and on the good side.

Killer Angel
2011-11-24, 06:42 AM
Well to me the first one is more epic because I prefer battles where the underdog is both winning, and on the good side.

Though I would hardly call "underdog" the USA's Army... :smalltongue:

Though exceptions (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiQazjMVBMI&feature=related) exist, in SF scenarios.


Edit: staying on SF sieges (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPE00A6b9TY&feature=related)...

Avilan the Grey
2011-11-24, 07:53 AM
Though I would hardly call "underdog" the USA's Army... :smalltongue:


Back then it very much was.
On the other hand the US army was not involved in this battle.

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-25, 06:45 PM
Edit: staying on SF sieges (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPE00A6b9TY&feature=related)...

You made me watch parts of the "battles" in the Starship Troopers movie in a thread about epic battles..... please subtract several points :smalltongue:

Let's just start with a fort in a valley with higher ground all around and leave it there.

Killer Angel
2011-11-26, 02:54 PM
You made me watch parts of the "battles" in the Starship Troopers movie in a thread about epic battles..... please subtract several points :smalltongue:


Doesn't it count as epic fail? :smalltongue:

Ceridan
2011-11-27, 03:48 PM
I love this thread, and all the submitted material is great.

This is one of my favorite fights, and I agree thousands of extras beats CGI every time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3j1iWJiI_c&feature=related

What can I say, as a director Kurosawa rocks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qZfpKQ-1fg&feature=related

Avilan the Grey
2011-11-27, 08:54 PM
I love this thread, and all the submitted material is great.

This is one of my favorite fights, and I agree thousands of extras beats CGI every time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3j1iWJiI_c&feature=related

What can I say, as a director Kurosawa rocks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qZfpKQ-1fg&feature=related

Now these are japanese battles I LIKE :smallbiggrin: