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View Full Version : Light Yagami (Death Note) vs. Lelouch Vi Britannia (Code Geass)



Geno9999
2011-11-11, 11:48 PM
Both men tried to change their worlds. One, Light Yagami, was given the power over life and death, being able to kill with only a name and a face. He sought to become justice, killing criminals and those who dared challenge his jurisdiction. The other, Lelouch Vi Britannia, was given the ability to bend anyone's will to him on eye-contact. He fought to avenge his mother and also to change the world to be a better place for his sister. Both of them are brilliant planners, planning gambits to kill, confuse their enemies, and lead a double life.
I have two scenarios for you in the playground to consider:

1) If Light and Lelouch were to fight, who would win? This likely going to be a cat and mouse game, one that Light would be all to familiar with, where Lelouch takes the role of L/Near.

2) What would happen if they switched shows? Would Lelouch even do any thing in Light's world, seeing how it's so radically different from his own world? Would Light attempt to liberate Japan via Death Note?

CarpeGuitarrem
2011-11-11, 11:57 PM
1. Light, by a landslide. Lelouch is a tactical genius, and he pulls off some clever ploys, but Light stomps him multiple times over. Compare, for instance, the Memory Gambit that each character pulls. Lelouch's greatest strength is leadership, and that doesn't count for much against the Death Note. His one saving grace is that, as Zero, he remains entirely incognito, with hardly anyone who knows his identity.

2. I'm sure Lelouch would find some cause to attach himself to and become leader of. And Light? I think he might start offing Britannians in the government out of justice and for the lols. That would actually be a pretty interesting show.

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-12, 01:07 AM
Scenario 1:

At the end of their respective series, Lelouch wins his battle and Light loses his.

For scheming they both use the Xanatos Roulette, only in the end Lelouch quite frankly is forced to adapt to more while Light benefits from very very specific circumstances. Where would Light be if his father wasn't a cop, or his father did not end up on L's task force, or if L didn't choose to use a personal confrontation? I would say that the odds stacked against Lelouch are higher because he is caught in a broader world with far more players on the field, yet he still manages to win. Light somehow manages to screw-up having the perfect murder weapon and inside information on his own investigation.

There are two real clinchers. First Lelouch conceals his face and name under the Zero persona even among his comrades. Second Lelouch has immediate means to confirm suspicion beyond a doubt via Geass, something L lacked entirely.

Scenario 2:

Its impossible to put Lelouch in Light's world, because he can't have his family there without the entire world order. And without his family Lelouch has nothing to be vengance driven about. He becomes a professional chessplayer noted for his charity work for the disabled while taking care of his disabled sister. Or some kinda of successful politician. He never even uses his Geass.

Light in Area 11... assuming governmental oppression merits divine punishment under his sociopathy... he writes Charles vi Britannia into the Death Note. Odyseuss becomes the next Emperor secretly ruled by Schniezel, who collectively institute a boring bland regime of quiet competence. Light can only make things worse from here if he keeps going by destabilizing global politics.

Particularly he cannot free Japan as he has neither the flair or charisma Zero does, and has no way to deal with say the JLF to unify resistance under him without inevitably giving himself away.

Oh and if Light doesn't start with Emperor Chuck, Chuck spies him out within the Sword of Akasha and has Light killed. Because Emperor Chuck has no reason to let a total sociopath without the bloodline or leadership ability to succeed him live.

Lord Raziere
2011-11-12, 01:07 AM
There is actually a fan fic about this. isn't finished yet, but yes Light does kill most of the Britannia's family, mostly because Light is sent to the Code geass universe,finds Japan oppressed doesn't like that, so he decides to put Kira-style Justice upon most of the Britannian elite, Lelouch and Nunally only escape because they've already been listed as dead.

Light even helps Zero with the Rebellion and kills most of the enemy officers for Zero.

Then Zero and Light start turning towards each other…..and Zero institutes a media blackout, since he nows controls all of Japan, and somehow figured out that Kira can kill through the media.

that is all I read of the fan fic so far, which is looking to be in favor Zero's favor at that point since most of Light's power came from looking at the media and killing people through it. the question is, why didn't L do the same once he figured out that Kira was in Tokyo in like, episode 2 of Death Note?
Who knows. maybe then we wouldn't have had an interesting story.

edit: in fact there is a page for it….ON TVTROPES! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/FanFic/ZeroVsKira) MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! *Thunder and Lightning* *Evil Music Plays* :smallbiggrin::smallamused::smalltongue:

Xondoure
2011-11-12, 03:43 AM
I'd say Lelouch wins. Light does so so well up until the very end where through a variety of incredibly stupid blunders and arrogance he meets his own down fall. Whereas no matter how many times things go horribly horribly wrong for Lelouch he still manages to achieve his goal in the end. Lelouch is simply less likely to underestimate his opponent, and has a much more powerful tool at his disposal as long as he keeps his name obscured.

TheSummoner
2011-11-12, 03:53 AM
At the end of their respective series, Lelouch wins his battle and Light loses his.

Worth noting that they both died to acomplish this and that Lelouch's victory was largely military, something that would not likely come up against Light.


For scheming they both use the Xanatos Roulette, only in the end Lelouch quite frankly is forced to adapt to more while Light benefits from very very specific circumstances. Where would Light be if his father wasn't a cop, or his father did not end up on L's task force, or if L didn't choose to use a personal confrontation? I would say that the odds stacked against Lelouch are higher because he is caught in a broader world with far more players on the field, yet he still manages to win. Light somehow manages to screw-up having the perfect murder weapon and inside information on his own investigation.

Where would Light be? Probably better off honestly. His ego made him try to fight L, when the best thing he could've done was lay low and remain discreet. If Light's father wasn't a cop... If Light's father hadn't ended up on L's taskforce... Light wouldn't have had the ability to face off against L more personally and would've been much harder to find. Ok, so L is still out there looking. What does that really matter when you can kill without a trace from any distance?

I don't necessarily disagree with what you said (way too tired to put too much thought into who would seriously win), I just thought these were interesting points and wanted to comment.


Light in Area 11... assuming governmental oppression merits divine punishment under his sociopathy... he writes Charles vi Britannia into the Death Note. Odyseuss becomes the next Emperor secretly ruled by Schniezel, who collectively institute a boring bland regime of quiet competence. Light can only make things worse from here if he keeps going by destabilizing global politics.

Particularly he cannot free Japan as he has neither the flair or charisma Zero does, and has no way to deal with say the JLF to unify resistance under him without inevitably giving himself away.

So... Here's the question... Could the Death Note kill someone with a code? I'm tempted to say no. So even if Light did kill Emperor Big-hair, that still leaves V.V. An immortal enemy throws a gigantic wrench into Light's plans... He found a work-around for Rem, but V.V. would be much harder since neither the way he died in the show or the way Light managed to rid himself of Rem would really be options in this scenario. Light could (and certainly would) cause hell, but as for whether or not he could actually win? That's much trickier.

Megaduck
2011-11-12, 04:55 AM
I’m going to have to go with Lelouch here. Light goes through most of Death Note with the advantage, he has the special powers, he has most of the information, and most of his actions are reactive to what L is doing he rarely has to take an objective.. L is the one that does most of the difficult work in the show as he has to deduce not only who Light is but what he is able to do.

Lelouch on the other hand tends to be at a disadvantage for most of Code Geass. He has the super power but otherwise tends to be massively out resourced and having to accomplish a goal.

A better match up I think would be Lelouch verses L. L is hired by the Britannian empire to find out who Zero is.

Psyren
2011-11-12, 04:26 PM
Light's only real protection was that L (and Near/Mello) were trying to arrest rather than kill him. Both parties knew he was Kira, they were simply looking for conclusive evidence. Had they instead been trying to kill him (as Lelouch would be) he would be dead in moments because he never made any real effort to hide his identity, even going home to his family regularly.

Kato
2011-11-12, 04:50 PM
Yeah, I'll say on the one on one Lulu has the upper hand. Maybe Light is a bit more intelligence (on their own very high level) but Lulu in general would keep his identity a secret so Light can hardly do a thing. I see little chance for Light to win that.


The crossovers are kind of interesting but the thing is their motivation... as people said, Lulu would probably lie back and maybe become at best some secret super hero, if anything, Geassing mean people to be better or something, if anything at all.
Light would not try to free Japan, at least not for long. He's a crazy megalomaniac. He'd kill off all of Britannia and/or blackmail them into making him their ruler or something like that. But with the opponents he got there the'd FREIA him into oblivion even if they took half of Tokyo down with him.

Lord Raziere
2011-11-12, 05:43 PM
well my argument that since I'm a Lelouch fanboy since I think he is one of the most awesomest things ever therefore not actually unbiased enough to argue about this….

that Lelouch wins. he has faced actual hardship, has a power that is more flexible and put actual effort into everything he did. Light just wrote in his Death Note a lot. that and Lelouch's memory gambit was much more plausible and workable.
furthermore, Lelouch has proven that he can get people to follow him without resorting to any "DIE OR FOLLOW ME!" or Geassing everyone. He is in many ways a natural leader and I doubt that even Light can kill an entire military, especially when Lelouch figures out a way to keep their names and faces hidden.
that and Lelouch defeated Mao, who could read his mind and won, Lelouch defeated Charles, Schneizel and Marianne, two of those had supernatural powers like him, and the last had the entire world held hostage by nukes, he won against them all.

Light lost to two guys who didn't even have supernatural powers, or any of the other Code Geass antagonists resources, who have large political power, a lot of military and lots of sneaky scheming to boot.

that and Lelouch is sane, by the end of Death Note, Light was pretty much power-mad and lost because he said "I WIN.", losing because he couldn't keep himself controlled for one second and gave in to a bond villain cliche: gloating.

edit: now, Lelouch vs. L. THAT would be awesome. I like both characters really soooo…..I wouldn't care as long as it would be a good fight.

Prime32
2011-11-12, 06:46 PM
1) If Light and Lelouch were to fight, who would win? This likely going to be a cat and mouse game, one that Light would be all to familiar with, where Lelouch takes the role of L/Near.When one of Lelouch's plans goes wrong he quickly adapts and makes the most of it, even in the case of something personally horrifying like the Geass backfire. When one of Light's plans goes wrong he throws a tantrum and acts stupid.

Lelouch has two layers of false identities, Lelouch Lamperouge and Zero, the latter of which also hides his face. His troops also hide their faces, and then there's C.C. who's immortal.

L knew that Light was Kira, just couldn't prove it. Lelouch can prove it easily, or kill him even without being sure.

The only place Light would win is a straight fistfight with no powers.


2) What would happen if they switched shows? Would Lelouch even do any thing in Light's world, seeing how it's so radically different from his own world? Would Light attempt to liberate Japan via Death Note?Light wouldn't be interested in changing the system, since one faction ruling everything makes it easier for him to take over.

Mewtarthio
2011-11-12, 07:35 PM
edit: now, Lelouch vs. L. THAT would be awesome. I like both characters really soooo…..I wouldn't care as long as it would be a good fight.

Except that L spent most of his show immune to his target's primary power (by keeping his real name a secret). He is not immune to Zero's private army. That seriously complicates matters, as Lelouch can kill the detective by just figuring out where he is, no name necessary.

That being said, I virtually guarantee that L will figure out the Geass before he goes down. He might even discover Zero's true identity. That could make things pretty desperate for Lelouch.

So, my vote: L dies, but manages to strike a serious blow first.

Megaduck
2011-11-13, 07:10 AM
Except that L spent most of his show immune to his target's primary power (by keeping his real name a secret). He is not immune to Zero's private army. That seriously complicates matters, as Lelouch can kill the detective by just figuring out where he is, no name necessary.


I disagree on that mainly because L had the protection of the Japanese Government on his side during Death Note. He would have been hard to assassinate directly.

That's why I suggested that L be hired by Brittania to find out who Zero is. Then he'd have the resources/protection of the Military and wouldn't be just a guy wandering around a warzone alone.

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-13, 11:42 AM
I disagree on that mainly because L had the protection of the Japanese Government on his side during Death Note. He would have been hard to assassinate directly.

That's why I suggested that L be hired by Brittania to find out who Zero is. Then he'd have the resources/protection of the Military and wouldn't be just a guy wandering around a warzone alone.

One of the first things Lelouch does is to assassinate (with ease) the governor of Area 11, who is also Clovis an Imperial Prince. Would they extend an ostensible freelancer as much protection as an member of the Royal family, and would it do any good?

Also L shows a certain preference for personal confrontations when at a logjam in his investigations. We see this first in his most masterful move with the television fake. And of course when he shows up around Light and tell him who he is. Doing that around Lelouch is inviting asking to be Geassed and shot. (It was rather stupid around Light too, but such is Death Note)

Forum Explorer
2011-11-13, 12:11 PM
One of the first things Lelouch does is to assassinate (with ease) the governor of Area 11, who is also Clovis an Imperial Prince. Would they extend an ostensible freelancer as much protection as an member of the Royal family, and would it do any good?

Also L shows a certain preference for personal confrontations when at a logjam in his investigations. We see this first in his most masterful move with the television fake. And of course when he shows up around Light and tell him who he is. Doing that around Lelouch is inviting asking to be Geassed and shot. (It was rather stupid around Light too, but such is Death Note)

Said govenor was an idiot however by hanging around a battlefield even after the majority of his forces were slaughtered. When Cornelia was in the same situation Lelouch couldn't get close and was nearly captured as a result.

TheSummoner
2011-11-13, 01:05 PM
However, by the time L went to confront Light directly, he already had a grasp of what the Death Note's capabilities were. Light needed a name and a face to kill, something he NEVER got from L (even if he did find an alternative). It's a safe assumption that he wouldn't do the same to someone whose power required eye contact.

What (should've) kept Light safe is the fact that the Death Note left no trace of the person using it. Geass is different. Lelouch has to be in contact with his target for it to work, leaving more that can be used to track him down.

L would make the opening move if the two faced off. He's the one who has to catch the other to win, so he has to act first. He would probably arrange a similar stunt as what he did to Light. Plant a trap to draw Zero out. Something he can't (or just plain won't) ignore. He would use that (as well as all records of his previous work) to gague Zero's abilities and work from there. He would piece together how Zero's geass worked. Once he knew that, there's no way he would reveal himself like he did against Light.

Prime32
2011-11-13, 01:15 PM
One factor I forgot to mention earlier: Lelouch's Geass works on anything that can understand him. Even shinigami. :smallamused:

Geno9999
2011-11-13, 01:36 PM
What (should've) kept Light safe is the fact that the Death Note left no trace of the person using it. Geass is different. Lelouch has to be in contact with his target for it to work, leaving more that can be used to track him down.
Except that a Geass'd person has no memory of performing the action and only a vague memory of what lead up to the moment.
L would have trouble trying to figure out the exact nature of the Geass so long as Lelouch sticks to isolated targets.
However, I do agree that once L learns of the Geass's power, he would avoid a personal confrontation like what he did with Light, as that would put him in even greater risk than with Light.

TheSummoner
2011-11-13, 01:52 PM
One factor I forgot to mention earlier: Lelouch's Geass works on anything that can understand him. Even shinigami. :smallamused:

Debatable. Even if it did, that would require eye contact, which is a bit difficult with a creature you can't even see without first touching a Death Note.

Light vs Lelouch is a hard one... I can't really place who would do what without a specific scenario. Who is trying to stop who? Why? What world does it take place in?


Except that a Geass'd person has no memory of performing the action and only a vague memory of what lead up to the moment.
L would have trouble trying to figure out the exact nature of the Geass so long as Lelouch sticks to isolated targets.
However, I do agree that once L learns of the Geass's power, he would avoid a personal confrontation like what he did with Light, as that would put him in even greater risk than with Light.

Security footage. Witness accounts of what happened.

L doesn't have to get the information from Lelouch's victims and isolated targets are not always an option. L tricks Lelouch into using his Geass somewhere that has been prepared beforehand with several hidden cameras.

Remember that L is not above taking morally questionable action to reach his goal. He put a man in a scenerio where he would be killed on live TV and was perfectly willing to test the Death Note once he got his hands on it. The task force may have held him in check on the Kira case, but I don't see Britannia's government caring very much.

CarpeGuitarrem
2011-11-13, 02:23 PM
Debatable. Even if it did, that would require eye contact, which is a bit difficult with a creature you can't even see without first touching a Death Note.
Lelouch Geassed the collective subconscious of humanity. I don't think a Shinigami would be exempt to that power for any specific reason. Rather, I can't think of a good reason that a Shinigami wouldn't be touchable by Geass. It's never stated as a human-only thing. The only parameter seems to be "able to receive orders".

Now, seeing the Shinigami...therein would lie the problem. But once Lelouch managed to touch a Death Note and see the Shinigami...oh gosh. Things would be ALL OVER for the other side. "Lelouch vi Britannia commands you: kill ______, _______, ________, ________, .... and ________!" Voila. He has a one-time Death Note that doesn't need a face, and that doesn't even need a true name (you can just say "kill the person known as _____").

AtlanteanTroll
2011-11-13, 02:37 PM
Light. He doesn't need personal contact. Knowing of someone is good enough, while it isn't for Lelouch.

GloatingSwine
2011-11-13, 02:45 PM
Light. He doesn't need personal contact. Knowing of someone is good enough, while it isn't for Lelouch.

He needs to know their name and face though.

Which is not terribly useful against someone with two nested fake identities and a fully face concealing mask.

AtlanteanTroll
2011-11-13, 02:49 PM
He needs to know their name and face though.

Which is not terribly useful against someone with two nested fake identities and a fully face concealing mask.

True enough, but saying Light dies at the end of Death Note is horrible Troll logic for why Lelouch would win. He died because he wasn't a good guy and DN is Shonen.

Prime32
2011-11-13, 03:33 PM
Now, seeing the Shinigami...therein would lie the problem. But once Lelouch managed to touch a Death Note and see the Shinigami...oh gosh. Things would be ALL OVER for the other side. "Lelouch vi Britannia commands you: kill ______, _______, ________, ________, .... and ________!" Voila. He has a one-time Death Note that doesn't need a face, and that doesn't even need a true name (you can just say "kill the person known as _____").Really, Lelouch doesn't need to see Ryuk, just know that he's there. And if he's acting dramatically then Ryuk will probably be looking at him.

It would be something like:
Lelouch: "I command you, write 'Light Yagami' in your Death Note!"
Light: "Ha! Your Geass won't work on me, I'm wearing sunglasses!"
Lelouch: "I wasn't trying to use my Geass on you."
Light: "Huh? We're the only ones here. Who else could..."
Ryuk: "Yes my lord."
Light: "FFFFFFFFUUUUUUU-"

Xondoure
2011-11-13, 04:51 PM
True enough, but saying Light dies at the end of Death Note is horrible Troll logic for why Lelouch would win. He died because he wasn't a good guy and DN is Shonen.

Be that as it may Light fell apart hard at the end. To the point where I was screaming and pounding my fists on the keyboard because there was a million and one ways he could have won and he didn't because precautions are for suckers. Light can't adapt and he has too much pride forcing him into confrontations he never had to face. By simply leaving the first investigator to tail him alive he could have escaped all suspicion in the first place. Light is an idiot.

Lelouch on the other hand doesn't do incredibly stupid things on purpose consistently, and has been shown to be able to adapt against enemies with all the advantages in their favor. Something Light never does.

Forum Explorer
2011-11-13, 05:11 PM
Lelouch also has a gun and a highly advanced mech in his service. So really it comes down to this:

Light can't really hurt Lelouch as only one person knows both his face and his name besides himself. Lelouch can kill light with Geass or any conventional methods and would do so quickly.

CarpeGuitarrem
2011-11-13, 06:50 PM
Lelouch also has a gun and a highly advanced mech in his service. So really it comes down to this:

Light can't really hurt Lelouch as only one person knows both his face and his name besides himself. Lelouch can kill light with Geass or any conventional methods and would do so quickly.
Except a fistfight. XD

Forum Explorer
2011-11-13, 09:02 PM
Except a fistfight. XD

....fine :smalltongue:

Fan
2011-11-13, 09:29 PM
Except a fistfight. XD

I unno.. both seem to be fairly weak pretty boys geared towards Charisma rather than.. well.. anything physical.

Lelouch is at least smart enough to wear body armor.

Istari
2011-11-13, 09:32 PM
Lelouch also has a gun and a highly advanced mech in his service. So really it comes down to this:

Light can't really hurt Lelouch as only one person knows both his face and his name besides himself. Lelouch can kill light with Geass or any conventional methods and would do so quickly.

I will point out that if Light identified Zero as Lelouch, while his psuedo name wouldn't work for the Death Note, it wouldn't be that hard to find his original name as a Britannian Prince if Light really wanted to find out his real name.

Fan
2011-11-13, 09:35 PM
I will point out that if Light identified Zero as Lelouch, while his psuedo name wouldn't work for the Death Note, it wouldn't be that hard to find his original name as a Britannian Prince if Light really wanted to find out his real name.

Well officially in records he's Lelouch Lamperouge...

Charles has Lelouch Vi Britannia declared dead already.

Prime32
2011-11-13, 09:57 PM
I unno.. both seem to be fairly weak pretty boys geared towards Charisma rather than.. well.. anything physical.

Lelouch is at least smart enough to wear body armor.Light is in above-average physical shape and has some martial arts training. Lelouch's lack of fitness is a running gag.

Fan
2011-11-13, 10:04 PM
Light is in above-average physical shape and has some martial arts training. Lelouch's lack of fitness is a running gag.

He got martial arts training? Huh.

Though Lelouch does typically carry Light's one weakness.

Gun.

Istari
2011-11-13, 10:08 PM
Well officially in records he's Lelouch Lamperouge...

Charles has Lelouch Vi Britannia declared dead already.

True, but once he realizes that its a psuedoname, he can do some research and figure out the connection. At the very least, Milly Ashford and Suzaku (known associates of Lelouch) know his true identity so he could possibly Death Note it out of them if he was desperate.

CarpeGuitarrem
2011-11-13, 11:38 PM
He got martial arts training? Huh.
When L goes all emo and wants to give up, when they're handcuffed together, Light socks him a good one, and in the fight that ensues, he goes on to demonstrate a pretty good bit of upper body strength and combat technique.

Link here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r9Z5MIADPE)

Forum Explorer
2011-11-14, 01:33 AM
I will point out that if Light identified Zero as Lelouch, while his psuedo name wouldn't work for the Death Note, it wouldn't be that hard to find his original name as a Britannian Prince if Light really wanted to find out his real name.

I think it would be pretty hard. Even looking at a picture of him from the past might not be enough to recognize Lelouch as the prince. I mean even his brothers have a hard time recognizing him.

Plus Sazuku wouldn't be scared of a death note and more then capable and willing to take out Light himself. Milly perhaps but doing so would involve messing around in Lelouch's territory. He literally has ninja assassins on hand at that school. I think if Light entered that school he would leave either dead or as Lelouch's slave.

TheSummoner
2011-11-14, 03:50 AM
Lelouch Geassed the collective subconscious of humanity. I don't think a Shinigami would be exempt to that power for any specific reason. Rather, I can't think of a good reason that a Shinigami wouldn't be touchable by Geass. It's never stated as a human-only thing. The only parameter seems to be "able to receive orders".

Didn't word of god say that only worked because the collective subconscious of humanity wanted to do what he ordered it to do anyways?

Geass is not perfect. It does not work on code bearers. An arguement can be made either way for whether or not it would work on shinigami.


Now, seeing the Shinigami...therein would lie the problem. But once Lelouch managed to touch a Death Note and see the Shinigami...oh gosh. Things would be ALL OVER for the other side. "Lelouch vi Britannia commands you: kill ______, _______, ________, ________, .... and ________!" Voila. He has a one-time Death Note that doesn't need a face, and that doesn't even need a true name (you can just say "kill the person known as _____").

IF he managed to touch a death note and IF geass worked on shinigami, then yes, he could do that. He could let Ryuk fill in the names and faces himself and eliminate anyone and everyone he has the foresight to eliminate.

Those are pretty big if's.


Really, Lelouch doesn't need to see Ryuk, just know that he's there. And if he's acting dramatically then Ryuk will probably be looking at him.

It would be something like:
Lelouch: "I command you, write 'Light Yagami' in your Death Note!"
Light: "Ha! Your Geass won't work on me, I'm wearing sunglasses!"
Lelouch: "I wasn't trying to use my Geass on you."
Light: "Huh? We're the only ones here. Who else could..."
Ryuk: "Yes my lord."
Light: "FFFFFFFFUUUUUUU-"

And how would Lelouch even know about Ryuk in the first place? It isn't the sort of thing Light ever went around advertising. Does Lelouch now stare at random spots while giving orders to invisible things that may or may not actually be there?

You do bring up an interesting possibility though... Why couldn't Light do the same? Been a while since I watched either show, but even though Lelouch wasn't unmasked until near the end, weren't several of his terrorist buddies known, both name and face?

"[Insert name here] follows the man known as Zero, remaining unseen and gathering as much information as possible about his daily habits, documenting everything. [He/She] sends everything [he/she] uncovers to [insert address/email/random location chosen for the task] after 20 days or as soon as Zero's real name and picture of his face are uncovered and then dies of a heart attack afterward."

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-14, 03:59 AM
True, but once he realizes that its a psuedoname, he can do some research and figure out the connection. At the very least, Milly Ashford and Suzaku (known associates of Lelouch) know his true identity so he could possibly Death Note it out of them if he was desperate.

Even putting aside the enormity of identifying a mask figure like Zero there's a problem with this... Lelouch Lamperouge is a nobody to the broader world outside Ashford. Off hand the only reliable way to be aware of Lelouch at all is to be at Ashford Academy. And Light Yagami as an Eleven could not exactly enroll unnoticed, look at the reaction to Suzaku from which we can infer that he's the only full-blooded Eleven there. Light (lacking favor from a Royal) wouldn't be allowed in and Lelouch lives on campus. And if he did somehow get in he runs a great risk of being someone suspicous in Lelouch's eyes which would not be hard for Lelouch to resolve:

*Geass* "Why are you interested in me?"
"I'm a murdering sociopath that see's you as an obstacle and want to confirm you are Zero so I can write your name in my magic notebook of death."
"Ahh" *Bang* *Calls Black Knights to eliminate the body*

And presumably whatever is in place from the Ashford family for Lelouch must at least pass some kind of muster combined with whatever Emperor Chuck set up. I've always imagined Lelouch was largely unperson-ed myself, its questionable what might remain in the way of evidence of his existence.

Though lets say he does get Lelouch's face and cover name. Light could experiment with the IIRC not addressed ground of writing someone's incomplete name into the Note, something he uses on Lind L. Tailor and presumably the American Ray Pember among others. Which if functional would make Death Note terribly ironic, and is probably why I can't remember it being addressed.

At any rate though Zero hiding his face and greater personal resources favor combined somewhat with lower arrogance still push things on a whole towards Lelouch.


When L goes all emo and wants to give up, when they're handcuffed together, Light socks him a good one, and in the fight that ensues, he goes on to demonstrate a pretty good bit of upper body strength and combat technique.

Link here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r9Z5MIADPE)

Given that he doesn't even knock L out this comes out to still having precisely as much personal defense skill as Lelouch. None.

Though I'll grant Lelouch most definitely has weak stamina so he'd loose a brawl. Still as Zero he performs some rather Batman manuvers, and was able to chase Arthur up onto the roof that time.

That said Light does seem to react badly to guns.

Kato
2011-11-14, 04:47 AM
You do bring up an interesting possibility though... Why couldn't Light do the same? Been a while since I watched either show, but even though Lelouch wasn't unmasked until near the end, weren't several of his terrorist buddies known, both name and face?

"[Insert name here] follows the man known as Zero, remaining unseen and gathering as much information as possible about his daily habits, documenting everything. [He/She] sends everything [he/she] uncovers to [insert address/email/random location chosen for the task] after 20 days or as soon as Zero's real name and picture of his face are uncovered and then dies of a heart attack afterward."

I'd say those orders are much too specific for the DN to carry out. There have never been and clear indications but that's like manipulating a person's whole life for the time... also, Lulu paid attention most of his associates were unknown as well.

Megaduck
2011-11-14, 05:06 AM
You do bring up an interesting possibility though... Why couldn't Light do the same? Been a while since I watched either show, but even though Lelouch wasn't unmasked until near the end, weren't several of his terrorist buddies known, both name and face?

"[Insert name here] follows the man known as Zero, remaining unseen and gathering as much information as possible about his daily habits, documenting everything. [He/She] sends everything [he/she] uncovers to [insert address/email/random location chosen for the task] after 20 days or as soon as Zero's real name and picture of his face are uncovered and then dies of a heart attack afterward."

Won't work. You could do it on Toudou or something like that but Lelouch takes great pains to keep his identity secret even from his own troops. Mainly, as shown from season two, they'd turn on him as soon as they figured out who he was.

Now, what might work is if Toudou was ordered to find out the names and faces of all the Black Knights he could and then send them to Light. You'd get Deithard that way and then you have the entire Black Knight Registry.

It won't get rid of Lelouch but it would take out his support base. The only person in the Black Knights who knows who Zero is in the first Season is C.C whose real name is never even revealed in show and so would be hard to Death Note even assuming it would work on someone with a Code.

Urist
2011-11-14, 11:46 AM
People who keep bringing up problems involving Light's arrogance and other such stuff: the reason Light acted like an arrogant git and made huge errors was because L specifically called him out in the second episode. By doing so, he challenged Light's pride, his fatal flaw, which made him decide to take risks in order to personally defeat L, and to make sure L knew exactly who had beat him. As long as someone doesn't do that, Light works much better.

Xondoure
2011-11-14, 12:04 PM
People who keep bringing up problems involving Light's arrogance and other such stuff: the reason Light acted like an arrogant git and made huge errors was because L specifically called him out in the second episode. By doing so, he challenged Light's pride, his fatal flaw, which made him decide to take risks in order to personally defeat L, and to make sure L knew exactly who had beat him. As long as someone doesn't do that, Light works much better.

Light would hate Zero from the moment the revolution started to take press coverage away from his killing bad people thing. And I'm sure some reporters wouldn't hesitate to connect the deaths to Zero's revolution. Just think of how much that would piss him off.

CarpeGuitarrem
2011-11-14, 12:40 PM
Didn't word of god say that only worked because the collective subconscious of humanity wanted to do what he ordered it to do anyways?

Geass is not perfect. It does not work on code bearers. An arguement can be made either way for whether or not it would work on shinigami.
I don't see any reason why it shouldn't work on shinigami, though. It can easily be surmised that code bearers are immune because they've passed on the power of the Geass and therefore transcended it in a fashion. Shinigami? They're just personal beings with a will and intelligence, and therefore an ability to receive and obey orders.

Whether the Geass works on other species of creatures besides humans is not addressed in the series (because there'd be no reason to address it), but I don't see any good reason why it wouldn't. The reason why code bearers are immune has nothing to do with their species (as, like all beings whom Geass is shown to work on, they are all human), so I don't see any strong or compelling reason why it should matter.

IF he managed to touch a death note and IF geass worked on shinigami, then yes, he could do that. He could let Ryuk fill in the names and faces himself and eliminate anyone and everyone he has the foresight to eliminate.

Those are pretty big if's.
Like I noted, the second one isn't so big of an "if". The first, yeah. But that can be readily handled via the Rule of Plot. After all, Rem's DN fell into the hands of the police, a great number of whom saw it, and that itself was a pretty big if. But it led to an interesting plot development.


Given that he doesn't even knock L out this comes out to still having precisely as much personal defense skill as Lelouch. None.

Though I'll grant Lelouch most definitely has weak stamina so he'd loose a brawl. Still as Zero he performs some rather Batman manuvers, and was able to chase Arthur up onto the roof that time.

That said Light does seem to react badly to guns.
I dunno. Light seemed to hold his own against L pretty decently, which is far more than can be said for Lelouch in any physical fight he's been in, such as getting facestomped by Suzaku.

And I think his acrobatics as Zero are more just that: acrobatics, and theatrics. That doesn't really let him fistfight all that well.

Of course, highly unlikely that it would come down to a fistfight anyway, that was more of my joke suggestion. :smallwink:

TheSummoner
2011-11-14, 01:06 PM
I'd say those orders are much too specific for the DN to carry out. There have never been and clear indications but that's like manipulating a person's whole life for the time... also, Lulu paid attention most of his associates were unknown as well.

Not too specific at all. The Death Note does have its rules and limitations, but aside from those, it can make a victim do anything the user wants.

For example, one of the rules is that you cannot use the Death Note to force one person to kill someone else. Light could not write the name of a known Black Knight into it and order him to kill Zero. The Death Note cannot make someone do something that is impossible. If Light were to write someone sprouts wings and flies into the sun to die, it would just default back to a heart attack.

However, the Death Note CAN and HAS been used to manipulate a person's actions within the confines of its rules. Early on in the series, Light used it to manipulate a criminal to try to take a bus full of people hostage so he could get the identity of the man stalking him. Just one example.


Won't work. You could do it on Toudou or something like that but Lelouch takes great pains to keep his identity secret even from his own troops. Mainly, as shown from season two, they'd turn on him as soon as they figured out who he was.

Now, what might work is if Toudou was ordered to find out the names and faces of all the Black Knights he could and then send them to Light. You'd get Deithard that way and then you have the entire Black Knight Registry.

It won't get rid of Lelouch but it would take out his support base. The only person in the Black Knights who knows who Zero is in the first Season is C.C whose real name is never even revealed in show and so would be hard to Death Note even assuming it would work on someone with a Code.

Ok, so even if he fails to get Zero's identity out of it (call it "not possible" due to his precautions and have it default to a heart attack), we've atleast agreed that with a single known terrorist, he could cripple the entire group.


Light would hate Zero from the moment the revolution started to take press coverage away from his killing bad people thing. And I'm sure some reporters wouldn't hesitate to connect the deaths to Zero's revolution. Just think of how much that would piss him off.

Hmm... Depends. Are we talking about Light from early on in the series or later? If we're talking about Light later on, especially once his god complex went full swing, he probably would get pissy... But if he had already become known enough to get to that point, why would the reporters automatically connect the deaths to Zero? They would know there's a supernatural murderer out there.

If it's Light from early on, I don't see why he wouldn't be content to let this other chump take the heat for his dirty work.


I don't see any reason why it shouldn't work on shinigami, though. It can easily be surmised that code bearers are immune because they've passed on the power of the Geass and therefore transcended it in a fashion. Shinigami? They're just personal beings with a will and intelligence, and therefore an ability to receive and obey orders.

Whether the Geass works on other species of creatures besides humans is not addressed in the series (because there'd be no reason to address it), but I don't see any good reason why it wouldn't. The reason why code bearers are immune has nothing to do with their species (as, like all beings whom Geass is shown to work on, they are all human), so I don't see any strong or compelling reason why it should matter.

Like I noted, the second one isn't so big of an "if". The first, yeah. But that can be readily handled via the Rule of Plot. After all, Rem's DN fell into the hands of the police, a great number of whom saw it, and that itself was a pretty big if. But it led to an interesting plot development.

The code bearers example was just to show that geass is not perfect and immunity is possible. I'll go back to the collective subconscious... It was essentially god. Shinigami are essentially gods. Word of god said that it only worked on the collective subconscious because it wanted it to work. Ryuk... Well, he'd want to kill Light eventually, but only if he stopped being entertaining.

Rule of Plot gave a pretty good setup for how Rem's Death Note ended up with the police. You can't just say that it would favor Lelouch enough in this hypothetical that he would somehow magically get his hands on one.

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-14, 01:23 PM
I'd say those orders are much too specific for the DN to carry out. There have never been and clear indications but that's like manipulating a person's whole life for the time... also, Lulu paid attention most of his associates were unknown as well.

This was my thought as well. We know the Note has some bounds of "within reason" for its manipulations. If Light could engage in a long term complex manipulation via Note, why didn't he? We know he tested it extensively, but what he made people do with it was fairly direct. The longest term use of the Note I'm aware of was L in the movie, who dictated nothing but his time of death.


Won't work. You could do it on Toudou or something like that but Lelouch takes great pains to keep his identity secret even from his own troops. Mainly, as shown from season two, they'd turn on him as soon as they figured out who he was.

Now, what might work is if Toudou was ordered to find out the names and faces of all the Black Knights he could and then send them to Light. You'd get Deithard that way and then you have the entire Black Knight Registry.

It won't get rid of Lelouch but it would take out his support base. The only person in the Black Knights who knows who Zero is in the first Season is C.C whose real name is never even revealed in show and so would be hard to Death Note even assuming it would work on someone with a Code.

Couple of problems with this aside from the whole "Note makes you users b****" which is never demonstrated.

Tohdoh is among the last major figure to join the Black Knights. They were making waves well before that. With Kira out there operating Lelouch might well act differently knowing someone could give his general a heart attack at any moment. Convincingly fake Tohdoh's death for example. Or just not recruit him (not like the guy actually achieves anything)

Or have already instituted tight policies in the Knights about concealing names and faces within the organization as soon as Kira got attention.

Likewise while never dealt with in series as a revolutionary outlaw organization the Black Knight have to have pretty tight information protocols anyways. Even someone like Diethard would probably not have unrestricted access to who everyone is, because he doesn't need to know that every second. It wouldn't be strange for everything to be "Zero's eyes only" without some kind of approval procedure. And over the course of days is a fairly long while for Zero (or anyone else) to notice and track down a very clear path to Kira.

And there's something more fundamentally flawed with this strategy. IIRC Light as a rule kills two types of people, serious criminal scum and those directly threatening his own identity. The Black Knights get to be a fairly large organization, it would be operating against Light's delusions of godhood to simply engage in wholesale slaughter. And ultimately he can't get Lelouch this way... but it sounds like a great way to remove Lelouch's moral compunctions which is very obviously the only thing that kept Lelouch from just issuing "serve me forever" orders to start. Lelouch is the irreplaceable part of the revolution.

(Also writing Kallen Kozuki shouldn't do a thing)


Light would hate Zero from the moment the revolution started to take press coverage away from his killing bad people thing. And I'm sure some reporters wouldn't hesitate to connect the deaths to Zero's revolution. Just think of how much that would piss him off.

Can't become God when there's a charismatic larger-then-life god figure on television stealing your thunder. Yeah instant hatred sound about right.

Mewtarthio
2011-11-14, 01:49 PM
Not too specific at all. The Death Note does have its rules and limitations, but aside from those, it can make a victim do anything the user wants.

[...]

However, the Death Note CAN and HAS been used to manipulate a person's actions within the confines of its rules. Early on in the series, Light used it to manipulate a criminal to try to take a bus full of people hostage so he could get the identity of the man stalking him. Just one example.

But there are still limits. Remember, Light tested it out early on. He tried to get one criminal to write out the true name and face of L before he died and failed (though he didn't expect that to work). He also tried to get another criminal to claim he knew the true name and face of L before he died, and that also failed (much to Light's surprise). I don't think "tell me how to defeat Zero, then die" counts as a valid Death Note compel.

The bus thing is a bad example, as the guy in question was a violent criminal anyway. Wiping out the FBI is a closer analog, but even then he had to rely on a certain amount of subtlety (and a phenomenally stupid FBI agent).


Ok, so even if he fails to get Zero's identity out of it (call it "not possible" due to his precautions and have it default to a heart attack), we've atleast agreed that with a single known terrorist, he could cripple the entire group.

Even granting that, Light still doesn't win. Lelouch is still alive with his Geass, still consumed by vengeance. He can try again, this time taking precautions to guard against Kira's power. And he'll be prepared to resort to far more drastic measures now.


Hmm... Depends. Are we talking about Light from early on in the series or later? If we're talking about Light later on, especially once his god complex went full swing, he probably would get pissy... But if he had already become known enough to get to that point, why would the reporters automatically connect the deaths to Zero? They would know there's a supernatural murderer out there.

If it's Light from early on, I don't see why he wouldn't be content to let this other chump take the heat for his dirty work.

Was his god complex ever not full swing? Right from the start of the show, he responds to a guy calling him "evil" on television with "How dare you defy me?! I AM YOUR GOD! It is you who are evil! DIE!!!!!"

Also, while Zero and Kira may never be connected in the media, the Black Knights' stated goal is, essenially, to destroy the current order and create a better world. That's totally stepping on Light's toes. No way is he taking that quietly.

TheSummoner
2011-11-14, 02:06 PM
This was my thought as well. We know the Note has some bounds of "within reason" for its manipulations. If Light could engage in a long term complex manipulation via Note, why didn't he? We know he tested it extensively, but what he made people do with it was fairly direct. The longest term use of the Note I'm aware of was L in the movie, who dictated nothing but his time of death.

There is a maximum for how long you can manipulate a person between writing their name and the time of their death. 21 days IIRC.

As for why Light didn't engage in longer term manipulation... Well, what did he have to gain from it? The only people he could've really gotten anything out of manipulating AND had the ability to manipulate were on the task force, and he would've been suspect #1 if he had done that.


Tohdoh is among the last major figure to join the Black Knights. They were making waves well before that. With Kira out there operating Lelouch might well act differently knowing someone could give his general a heart attack at any moment. Convincingly fake Tohdoh's death for example. Or just not recruit him (not like the guy actually achieves anything)

Faking his death might not work... Granted, it wasn't Light who did it, but they did that with Matsuda during the whole Yotsuba arc. Higuchi wrote him in the Death Note after seeing him "die" just to be safe. Only thing that saved his ass is that he was using a fake name.

As for just not recruiting him... Lelouch can see into the future to know that Tohdoh would be useless?


Or have already instituted tight policies in the Knights about concealing names and faces within the organization as soon as Kira got attention.

Fair assumption, though a few would still probably be out there from before Kira was known about.


And there's something more fundamentally flawed with this strategy. IIRC Light as a rule kills two types of people, serious criminal scum and those directly threatening his own identity. The Black Knights get to be a fairly large organization, it would be operating against Light's delusions of godhood to simply engage in wholesale slaughter. And ultimately he can't get Lelouch this way... but it sounds like a great way to remove Lelouch's moral compunctions which is very obviously the only thing that kept Lelouch from just issuing "serve me forever" orders to start. Lelouch is the irreplaceable part of the revolution.

A lot of this depends on things we really can't determine... Would Light consider the Black Knights to be criminal scum? I can't imagine him siding with the Britannians, but that doesn't mean he would accept terrorism.

What would happen if a Death Note and Geass gave conflicting orders? In most cases, a workaround would probably be found that would fulfill both more or less ("Serve me forever" vs "Send me all the information you can on the black knights including names and faces of members, then go die in a fire in 21 days." would probably result in the person obeying Lelouch's every command while still gathering information for Light... Then dieing in a fire after 3 weeks.), but what if there was no loophole? What then? Would the first order take effect? Would it just default to an immediate heart attack? Would they cancel eachother out, making the victim immune to both?

It's tricky... Very tricky...

Edit: More


But there are still limits. Remember, Light tested it out early on. He tried to get one criminal to write out the true name and face of L before he died and failed (though he didn't expect that to work). He also tried to get another criminal to claim he knew the true name and face of L before he died, and that also failed (much to Light's surprise). I don't think "tell me how to defeat Zero, then die" counts as a valid Death Note compel.

The criminals failed because they did not know L's name and face. It was impossible for them to do it.

"Tell me how to defeat Zero, then die" would also be impossible, but "Gather all the information you can about the identities of the Black Knights, including both names and faces when possible and send iwhat you find to [place Light can get it without it being traced to him], then die either after 21 days or as soon as you are caught." would be perfectly valid. He wouldn't be demanding information they didn't have, only compelling them to gather what they could. Maybe that's nothing, but it isn't outside of the victim's power to try to get that information regardless of success or failure.


Even granting that, Light still doesn't win. Lelouch is still alive with his Geass, still consumed by vengeance. He can try again, this time taking precautions to guard against Kira's power. And he'll be prepared to resort to far more drastic measures now.

How drastic are we talking? Going to a crowded city and yelling "Zero orders you to serve. Hide your faces, adopt false names and obey my every command!" wouldn't make him many allies (other than the ones who had no choice).

He could rebuild and take precautions, but it would still be a major setback and he would still have no way of finding Light.


Was his god complex ever not full swing? Right from the start of the show, he responds to a guy calling him "evil" on television with "How dare you defy me?! I AM YOUR GOD! It is you who are evil! DIE!!!!!"

It certainly got worse over time. His ego would not allow him to ignore a direct challenge like that, but just compare Light before the time skip to Light afterwards. Early on, he was much more content to lay back in the shadows. It was only when he thought he had to cover his own ass (which only ended up making things worse for him) that he got involved directly. Afterwards, he thought he was invincible.


Also, while Zero and Kira may never be connected in the media, the Black Knights' stated goal is, essenially, to destroy the current order and create a better world. That's totally stepping on Light's toes. No way is he taking that quietly.

He certainly wouldn't ignore them, but depending on circumstances, he might see them more useful as pawns than corpses, atleast for a while.

Urist
2011-11-14, 02:30 PM
Based on Light's demeanor at the beginning of the series, he wouldn't mind someone else taking the heat for his actions for a pretty long time. The one thing that really set him off was L calling him evil, as he felt himself to be a force of ultimate righteousness. As long as no one does that, Light is capable of reacting in a logical, reasonable manner to another charismatic leader figure, rather than freaking out.

As for his look at the Black Knights, if they begin to kill innocents, Light would kill them off fairly quickly. If not, though, he might actually try to enlist them as allies in his fight for GREAT JUSTICE! Making Zero a pawn would make Light happy as a clam.

Forum Explorer
2011-11-14, 02:35 PM
I think it would default to heart attack. But the best one for conflicting orders:

What happens when Suzuku who has been Geassed to LIVE is written in the Death Note?

doliest
2011-11-14, 02:36 PM
Neither loses, in my opinion. It's a close battle, with several problems and random chance deciding some of it. Before I note anything, I should say I've only seen R1 and the first episode of R2; R2(First episode excepting) is not withen my reach at the moment.

First, I want to toss out what I feel is an important factor; Light has no standards. None at all. By the end, he will do anything, because he has his 'I'm a god' as justification. Lelouch is momentarily stunned by what he does to Nunally(SP?). He throws away victory to save his sister. His standards don't come up often, but they do exist.

Second, the Death Note is more useful in this situation than the Geass. Neither knows who the other is. There is no L to deduce Light is Kira. That means Lelouch has to figure it out himself, with only 'In Japan' to work with. He is also a fantastic military thinker. But not a detective. I don't think he would ever find out Light is Kira, unless Light moved closer to him intentionally. Lelouch is also a military genius; amazing command of his men. However, it was my understanding that many of his men were either famous or well known criminals. So it's likely Light would never discover Lelouch's name or face. But if the leadership of the Knights dies, excepting him, Lelouch is at least weakened. Enough that he likely hides the names of the replacement leaders, at least having an idea of what is at work.

The Britannian Royal family isn't even worth discussing. There are a threat. They're 'criminals' in Light's eyes. Excepting V.V, most of them die. Definitely anyone smart enough to match wits with Lelouch in Japan. So, ironically, any battle between Light and Lelouch helps Japan in the long run, as it means Japan likely ends up free, and Lelouch is too busy to directly run it. At the same time, Kira is too busy figuring out who Zero is to further his plans.

Still, while I tossed two advantages to Light, Lelouch is more...well...sane. That's a pretty good advantage. So, overall, I don't think either would ever win. They'd spin their wheels for the rest of their lives trying, but ultimately, neither wins. Though, in the Brittania universe, Japan wins. So, yay Japan. :smalltongue:

TheSummoner
2011-11-14, 02:43 PM
I think it would default to heart attack. But the best one for conflicting orders:

What happens when Suzuku who has been Geassed to LIVE is written in the Death Note?

I would imagine he would still have a heart attack. He may have been ordered to live, but that doesn't make him immortal (see Shirley). He would fight and cling to life as best he can, but that doesn't mean much against a supernatural heart attack.

As for C.C. since she IS immortal, I imagine one of two things would happen. Either the Death Note would fail and she would be immune to it, or she would have a heart attack, but it wouldn't kill her.

Istari
2011-11-14, 02:50 PM
I think it would default to heart attack. But the best one for conflicting orders:

What happens when Suzuku who has been Geassed to LIVE is written in the Death Note?

Assuming he dies of suicide, I would guess that it counts as physically impossible for him to do and Suzaku dies of a heart attack.

Ninja Maid'd

Psyren
2011-11-14, 03:18 PM
I would imagine he would still have a heart attack. He may have been ordered to live, but that doesn't make him immortal (see Shirley). He would fight and cling to life as best he can, but that doesn't mean much against a supernatural heart attack.

As for C.C. since she IS immortal, I imagine one of two things would happen. Either the Death Note would fail and she would be immune to it, or she would have a heart attack, but it wouldn't kill her.

I vote the latter option, as she has actually been "killed" multiple times (I'm pretty sure she was beheaded at one point.)

Though the Note may have the power to actually kill her. This is a clear "unstoppable force meets immovable object" situation.

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-14, 04:58 PM
There is a maximum for how long you can manipulate a person between writing their name and the time of their death. 21 days IIRC.

As for why Light didn't engage in longer term manipulation... Well, what did he have to gain from it? The only people he could've really gotten anything out of manipulating AND had the ability to manipulate were on the task force, and he would've been suspect #1 if he had done that.

Found the rule:
The conditions for death will not be realized unless it is physically possible for that human or it is reasonably assumed to be carried out by that human. -How to Use: VI (http://deathnote.wikia.com/wiki/The_Rules_of_Death_Note)

I will take the interpretation that engaging in OOC extremely extraneous espionage would not rank as "reasonably assumed" by the Note and it would default to heart attack.

So honorable samurai dies and he's the only real canidate who might be publicly known as a Black Knight.


Faking his death might not work... Granted, it wasn't Light who did it, but they did that with Matsuda during the whole Yotsuba arc. Higuchi wrote him in the Death Note after seeing him "die" just to be safe. Only thing that saved his ass is that he was using a fake name.

As for just not recruiting him... Lelouch can see into the future to know that Tohdoh would be useless?

Okay I'll give you that, though this still allows the "your face and name are well known, I can't use you" angle. And it is surprising just how useless Tohdoh is. And Lelouch seems as blind to that as anyone.


Fair assumption, though a few would still probably be out there from before Kira was known about.

Without being inside the organization there's actually no one. Some like Diethard, Kyoto House, and Rakshata are reasonably discoverable persons, but their support of the Black Knights itself is secret. Ohgi's group is explicitly chosen because they are small nobodies willing to follow Zero, unlike say the JLF.


A lot of this depends on things we really can't determine... Would Light consider the Black Knights to be criminal scum? I can't imagine him siding with the Britannians, but that doesn't mean he would accept terrorism.


Determining terrorists is not actually as hard as you may here. The whole "one man's terrorists is another freedom fighter" is largely bunk under any actual reasonable analysis, you can judge by practices. Lelouch makes it clear in their first appearance the Black Knights are not simply about Japanese independence, but about "allies of justice" and all that. Furthermore this is during an incident in which they stop terrorism. The Black Knights attack military targets for specific reasons, do not use suicide bombers, or take civilian hostages.

Now Zero is arguably a terrorist for his more morally reprehensible actions but Light should be intelligent enough to distinguish this.


What would happen if a Death Note and Geass gave conflicting orders? In most cases, a workaround would probably be found that would fulfill both more or less ("Serve me forever" vs "Send me all the information you can on the black knights including names and faces of members, then go die in a fire in 21 days." would probably result in the person obeying Lelouch's every command while still gathering information for Light... Then dieing in a fire after 3 weeks.), but what if there was no loophole? What then? Would the first order take effect? Would it just default to an immediate heart attack? Would they cancel eachother out, making the victim immune to both?

It's tricky... Very tricky...

I don't believe in mixing magics without a good reason. Given that compulsion is only a secondary and restricted function of the Death Note (see above rule) I believe it conflicting with a Geass command would be considered unreasonable and default to heart attack. Probably right away by my reading of the rules. However Lulu's Geass cannot command body functions so the person would still die if for example with just a specified method.

Haxzaku couldn't be compelled to kill himself under his Live! Geass, so he'd just heart attack.


The criminals failed because they did not know L's name and face. It was impossible for them to do it.

"Tell me how to defeat Zero, then die" would also be impossible, but "Gather all the information you can about the identities of the Black Knights, including both names and faces when possible and send iwhat you find to [place Light can get it without it being traced to him], then die either after 21 days or as soon as you are caught." would be perfectly valid. He wouldn't be demanding information they didn't have, only compelling them to gather what they could. Maybe that's nothing, but it isn't outside of the victim's power to try to get that information regardless of success or failure.

See above, if Light couldn't compel someone to lie (that's the important part) about knowing L as a standard of reasonable, then he couldn't do so to the level needed for espionage.


How drastic are we talking? Going to a crowded city and yelling "Zero orders you to serve. Hide your faces, adopt false names and obey my every command!" wouldn't make him many allies (other than the ones who had no choice).


Lelouch vi Britannia did precisely that and gained a faceless legion of Britannian slaves. Right down to the faceless mooks. It was a highly effective method of taking control and completely reversed the loss of the Black Knights services.

Though he'd still need to hide his face most of the time in a Death Note scenario. I'm imagining a pimpin Emperor Mask instead of his fabulous hat.


He could rebuild and take precautions, but it would still be a major setback and he would still have no way of finding Light.

By your method of course he would have a clue. Everything electronic is traceable.


I vote the latter option, as she has actually been "killed" multiple times (I'm pretty sure she was beheaded at one point.)

Though the Note may have the power to actually kill her. This is a clear "unstoppable force meets immovable object" situation.

This seems simplest, CC has a fatal heart attack. Is dead some amount of time then wakes back up.

Istari
2011-11-14, 05:16 PM
The death note did however, get someone who was currently dedicated to catching Kira to completely ignore the fact that Kira was right in front of her, as well as getting a FBI director to reveal the identities of his agents unnecessarily to an agent. So clearly it can do things that directly conflict with someone's personality. It can't however have them do something that they couldn't think of on their own (talk about a person they had no knowledge of).

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-14, 05:49 PM
The death note did however, get someone who was currently dedicated to catching Kira to completely ignore the fact that Kira was right in front of her, as well as getting a FBI director to reveal the identities of his agents unnecessarily to an agent. So clearly it can do things that directly conflict with someone's personality. It can't however have them do something that they couldn't think of on their own (talk about a person they had no knowledge of).

From further search:

“Suicide” is a valid cause of death. Basically, all humans are thought to possess the possibility to commit suicide. It is, therefore, not something “unbelievable to think of." - How To Use: X (http://deathnote.wikia.com/wiki/The_Rules_of_Death_Note)

Ergo Suicide is an special exception. This might in fact overrule Haxzaku too so I will retract my certainty there. There are also several rules speaking to collateral damage.

Also are you talking about Raye Penber? He was extorted without compulsion from my recollection, being tricked into writing his team mates on a piece of the Death Note have no knowledge of it.

And going by your description in compulsion terms, share information with your own team is not treasonous to your own cause, ergo more realistic manipulation. And AGAIN its short term and simple compared to three weeks of gathering information and sending it by surreptitious means.

Mewtarthio
2011-11-14, 05:49 PM
As I recall, there is a specific rule built in saying that "Suicide" is always a valid form of death, regardless of the victim's mental state. Outside that exception, though, I can't recall the Death Note making anyone act particularly out of character.

For the FBI director, it's possible that he could have considered it reasonable to let Penbar know who his co-workers were. Unnecessary and a little sloppy, yes, but there's a huge difference between compelling someone to act carelessly and compelling someone to betray everything they stand for.

Xondoure
2011-11-14, 07:17 PM
I feel that Suzaku's live Geass would kick in and the death note would revert to heart attack. Which would kill him.

Psyren
2011-11-14, 07:40 PM
A Geass "to live" and a Note "to suicide" would at best result in tripping the "impossible death" clause in the Death Note (such as telling someone in Japan to die in Paris within one hour) and he would then get hit by the heart attack. This is because of the Death Note's ultimate clause:


How to Use: XI

- As you see above, the time and conditions of death can be changed, but once the victim’s name has been written, the individual’s death can never be avoided.

So Suzaku will die, just not of suicide if he can't cause his own death due to Geass.

Prime32
2011-11-14, 08:34 PM
While "It's physically impossible for Suzaku to commit suicide, so he dies of a heart attack" is the most likely to happen, there's an alternative:

Suzaku's "Live!" Geass has actually been increasing his physical abilities to prevent him from dying, to the point where he has faster reflexes than a guy who can see into the future and survives his mecha exploding at one point.

Therefore, if it conflicts with a power stating that "any human whose name is written in this notebook shall die", it takes the path of least resistance... making him no longer a human.

Light dies seconds later when Suzaku flies past throwing lightning bolts. :smalltongue:

Xondoure
2011-11-14, 09:54 PM
While "It's physically impossible for Suzaku to commit suicide, so he dies of a heart attack" is the most likely to happen, there's an alternative:

Suzaku's "Live!" Geass has actually been increasing his physical abilities to prevent him from dying, to the point where he has faster reflexes than a guy who can see into the future and survives his mecha exploding at one point.

Therefore, if it conflicts with a power stating that "any human whose name is written in this notebook shall die", it takes the path of least resistance... making him no longer a human.

Light dies seconds later when Suzaku flies past throwing lightning bolts. :smalltongue:

Haxaku strikes again!

thubby
2011-11-15, 05:10 AM
i would think scenario 1 would end rather abruptly when light used the notebook as follows

"(lowly mook) wrote the names of all his companions on this sheet of paper, then mailed it to (inconspicuous location he had access to)"

next line
"(all people on the list) attack the one known as "zero" as immediately as possible and try and kill him with all available force"

kallen proceeds to turn zero into extra-chunky salsa, has heart attack, light wins.

the one thing that kept him from doing that to L was how freakishly conspicuous it would be to world authorities. how conspicuous is infighting in a rebel group?

Fan
2011-11-15, 05:15 AM
i would think scenario 1 would end rather abruptly when light used the notebook as follows

"(lowly mook) wrote the names of all his companions on this sheet of paper, then mailed it to (inconspicuous location he had access to)"

next line
"(all people on the list) attack the one known as "zero" as immediately as possible and try and kill him with all available force"

kallen proceeds to turn him into extra-chunky salsa, has heart attack, light wins.

the one thing that kept him from doing that to L was how freakishly conspicuous it would be to world authorities. how conspicuous is infighting in a rebel group?

Um, using the death note to have that person kill someone and die is actually against one of the rules iirc.

thubby
2011-11-15, 05:24 AM
Um, using the death note to have that person kill someone and die is actually against one of the rules iirc.

*googles*
there are a lot (http://deathnote.wikia.com/wiki/The_Rules_of_Death_Note)of rules for the thing, but im not seeing that.

Fan
2011-11-15, 05:30 AM
*googles*
there are a lot (http://deathnote.wikia.com/wiki/The_Rules_of_Death_Note)of rules for the thing, but im not seeing that.

How to Use X: Whether the cause of the individual’s death is either a suicide or accident. If the death leads to the death of more than the intended, the person will simply die of a heart attack. This is to ensure that other lives are not influenced.

Sounds like it's pretty clearly intended that you can't have the person with the death note kill someone else.

Otherwise he would've just had one of the task force members kill L.

End of story.

thubby
2011-11-15, 05:43 AM
How to Use: XLI
The use of the Death Note in the human world sometimes affects other human’s lives or shortens their original life-span, even though their names are not actually written in the Death Note itself. In these cases, no matter the cause, the god of death sees only the original life-span and not the shortened life-span.

seems we have a discontinuity here...

but even granting that, it's not insurmountable. say they beat him to near death, put him in a coma. or set them to forcibly learning his identity. physically subduing him is trivial, and kallen would recognize him instantly if no one else did.

point is, zero has too many exploitable mooks.

Fan
2011-11-15, 05:45 AM
seems we have a discontinuity here...

but even granting that, it's not insurmountable. say they beat him to near death, put him in a coma. or set them to forcibly learning his identity. physically subduing him is trivial, and kallen would recognize him instantly if no one else did.

point is, zero has too many exploitable mooks.

Pretty sure that again, the conditions written in it have to be something that would A: Be something that could reasonably lead to their death, and B: It has to be something they would reasonably do.

You cannot set someone to do recon with a Death Note, Light had to specifically trick people into doing this the old fashioned way, despite having the Death Note pretty much figured out.

Starwulf
2011-11-15, 06:33 AM
seems we have a discontinuity here...

but even granting that, it's not insurmountable. say they beat him to near death, put him in a coma. or set them to forcibly learning his identity. physically subduing him is trivial, and kallen would recognize him instantly if no one else did.

point is, zero has too many exploitable mooks.

It's not a discontinuity, it's a specific effect of the Death Note, triggered by the human that possesses it offering half his life span in order to be able to see the real name, and Date of Death of every human(in other words, it gives the human "Shinigami eyes". This is explored in Death Note when Light Yagami meets the other person who owns a Death Note, a chick whom I can't remember the name of. She's utterly obsessed with LIght, and stalks him, eventually figuring out who he is by noting the lack of a Name and Date of death floating above his head, which happens when one uses the Death Note.

GloatingSwine
2011-11-15, 06:44 AM
and kallen would recognize him instantly if no one else did.

No, she'd recognise Lelouch Lamperouge.

Not Lelouch vi Britannia.

Remember that the Death Note is highly specific about what counts as a person's name.

Psyren
2011-11-15, 08:28 AM
*googles*
there are a lot (http://deathnote.wikia.com/wiki/The_Rules_of_Death_Note)of rules for the thing, but im not seeing that.

You cannot control someone to kill someone else with the death note. If
Light could, his job would have been incredibly easy as he would have just had Matsuda shoot L and then himself.

Forum Explorer
2011-11-15, 11:09 AM
Plus most of the mook's names are not known till season 2. At that point Leuloch has gotten much more ruthless and proficient with his Geass. And they still don't know who he is.

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-15, 12:32 PM
seems we have a discontinuity here...

but even granting that, it's not insurmountable. say they beat him to near death, put him in a coma. or set them to forcibly learning his identity. physically subduing him is trivial, and kallen would recognize him instantly if no one else did.

point is, zero has too many exploitable mooks.

There's zero discontinuity. If you kill a rescue worker with a heart attack you shorten the lives of any he might have saved. This in no way conflicts with a restriction on not be able to use said rescue worker as your disposable assassin, because in such a case he would just have a heart attack. Which is evidently viewed by the Death Note as the minimizing the effects while still fulfilling its cardinal rule.

And again Zero has only one "exploitable mook" as Tohdoh is the only remotely public case. Everyone else is either a nobody to begin with, or not known to have dealings with the Black Knights.

And we already know the Death Note has standards for reasonable behavior in killing someone. You simply cannot use it to discover Zero's identity.

Its "Death" Note not "You're My B*tch" Note, the mind control is Lelouch's schtick not Light's.

CarpeGuitarrem
2011-11-15, 02:11 PM
i would think scenario 1 would end rather abruptly when light used the notebook as follows

"(lowly mook) wrote the names of all his companions on this sheet of paper, then mailed it to (inconspicuous location he had access to)"

next line
"(all people on the list) attack the one known as "zero" as immediately as possible and try and kill him with all available force"

kallen proceeds to turn zero into extra-chunky salsa, has heart attack, light wins.

the one thing that kept him from doing that to L was how freakishly conspicuous it would be to world authorities. how conspicuous is infighting in a rebel group?
You need a name and a face to kill with the Death Note.

TheSummoner
2011-11-15, 03:03 PM
Ok... So what about the Britannians? Yes, Light COULD easily kill off the entire royal family and devestate the leadership with his Death Note, but that would be wasteful and Light is smart enough to realize that.

He could manipulate them to set a trap for Zero easily. It's pretty damn reasonable that they would take actions to oppose Zero, Light would just be determining the specifics. Best part is, on a battlefield, it's easy enough to set the conditions of death without it being clear that he was behind it.

Forum Explorer
2011-11-15, 03:48 PM
Ok... So what about the Britannians? Yes, Light COULD easily kill off the entire royal family and devestate the leadership with his Death Note, but that would be wasteful and Light is smart enough to realize that.

He could manipulate them to set a trap for Zero easily. It's pretty damn reasonable that they would take actions to oppose Zero, Light would just be determining the specifics. Best part is, on a battlefield, it's easy enough to set the conditions of death without it being clear that he was behind it.

The Britannians are already trying to set traps for Zero. Some of the are amazing tacticians as well and they still can't pull it off, mostly.

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-15, 04:51 PM
Ok... So what about the Britannians? Yes, Light COULD easily kill off the entire royal family and devestate the leadership with his Death Note, but that would be wasteful and Light is smart enough to realize that.

He could manipulate them to set a trap for Zero easily. It's pretty damn reasonable that they would take actions to oppose Zero, Light would just be determining the specifics. Best part is, on a battlefield, it's easy enough to set the conditions of death without it being clear that he was behind it.

The Brittanians try multiple times to decisively defeat Zero... and well Death Note makes that a singular time per antagonist.

And Light shouldn't have the intelligence resources to really do much more on a tactical level then Cornelia or Schniezel do already. There are too many variables in setting up and carrying out a full scale battle to predict them much less convey via Death Note compel. That is pure writing reality to suit your whims and would default to Britannian X having a heart attack.

Zero only gets by through constant on sight direction or when he's by fighting on territory he's prepared to blow up... and then still directs his troops in reaction to the now disadvantaged opponents. You can't Xanatos Roulette what's really a game of Xanatos Speed Chess, something so help me Light doesn't practice with anywhere near the efficiency of.

And how does this actually help Light anyways? What exactly IS this trap that's going to reveal Zero and/or defeat him.

Istari
2011-11-15, 05:00 PM
He call have the commanders suicidally go after Zero despite any tactical disadvantage from doing so. Or have them pull some of their forces from Europe to fight Zero in Japan.

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-15, 05:36 PM
He call have the commanders suicidally go after Zero despite any tactical disadvantage from doing so. Or have them pull some of their forces from Europe to fight Zero in Japan.

The first is a wonderfully unsound move that sounds like a perfect invitation for Ms. Kasshu to break out the Shining pimp-hand. More seriously its hardly easy.

For the second part, no. You cannot redirect troops on whim. That's writing reality again to evade that Light does not have the means to beat Zero.

Forum Explorer
2011-11-16, 05:59 AM
He call have the commanders suicidally go after Zero despite any tactical disadvantage from doing so. Or have them pull some of their forces from Europe to fight Zero in Japan.

A) Zero would live and just slaughter the forces attempting to go after him. When he isn't in the mech with the most advanced defenses he is in a friendly mech and no one know where he is.

B) They already do this in S2