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King of Nowere
2011-11-12, 08:42 PM
In strip 813, Tarquin said they did not know if thog was alive, until they checked. Since thog is high level, and he can kill some mook guards and escape even when unarmed and low on hp, it would make sense that Tarquin (opr at least someone high level) was there. Plus, I really got the impresion that they were going to check on thog. And tarquin should know not to wait on finding out. Yet now we skip to a later scene, and thog's fate remains uncertain. Did they really go away without looking? Was the scene cut? Is rich stretching the issue to keep us guessing (if so, Tarquin not checking under the rabble is straining my suspension of disbelief, and the scene being cut would just be unfair)?

NerfTW
2011-11-12, 09:06 PM
Thog is heavily wounded. And on top of that, we've already seen his willingness to submit to the arena battles. Since Tarquin doesn't know that the Linear Guild is in the area yet, he has no reason to believe Thog would act any differently than every other time he's been unshackled and given a weapon. In fact, Thog doesn't even know, since Nale apparently kept most of the plan from him to avoid a leak.

Also, this isn't that much later. Keep in mind Elan was able to run to the palace in a matter of minutes. The dinosaur barge is just for show, not distance. We might very well see Nale or Sabine picking up Thog for round 2 in the next strip.

Jay R
2011-11-12, 11:18 PM
Is rich stretching the issue to keep us guessing (if so, Tarquin not checking under the rabble is straining my suspension of disbelief, and the scene being cut would just be unfair)?

It is not unfair for an author to reveal information only at the time that is best for the narrative. Thog's return, if any, will be better if it is a surprise.

Bulldog Psion
2011-11-12, 11:33 PM
I sincerely doubt that Tarquin gives a damn about a squashed, dying, has-been half-orc gladiator whom he'll be glad to see dead anyway. Just tell the guards to coup-de-grace him and be done with it.

factotum
2011-11-13, 02:36 AM
Thog was somehow captured in the first place, don't forget--I doubt Tarquin had to fetch him personally after he was caught urinating in the street!

GSFB
2011-11-13, 02:49 AM
even a healthy high level raging barbarian is no match for 30 guards with heavy crossbows when he has no armor or magic items. nor is he a match for a low level wizard with a charm spell.

Kareasint
2011-11-13, 06:53 AM
The rubble has to be removed to determine Thog's fate. Some of the larger pieces could require equipment to lift it or break it up into smaller pieces. It simply could take a while to remove the rubble.

Tarquin is more of a big picture kind of guy. He lets the guards and minions handle the details.

faustin
2011-11-13, 07:49 AM
Thog is probably keeping Z company in jail. Remember, as a major character, he cannot die off-panel.

irenicObserver
2011-11-13, 08:39 AM
I feel like this is less legitimate concern and more someone complaining about the pacing of the story because it's not going the way they want.

Why does it seem like people like to throw out negative literary criticisms whenever they have a problem? It sounds like a bad argument.

Seerow
2011-11-13, 09:40 AM
even a healthy high level raging barbarian is no match for 30 guards with heavy crossbows when he has no armor or magic items. nor is he a match for a low level wizard with a charm spell.

Actually I'd give him pretty good odds. Low level guards are probably looking at a 50% shot at best of hitting even a raging barbarian. Possibly less. A heavy Crossbow bolt has a ~40% chance of doing no damage at all to him thanks to DR. We're looking at 30 attacks per round in total dealing less damage to him than he'd normally take from a hit from something he expects to fight. If he has a decent dex, or other inherent armor increase, that drops dramatically very quickly.

And no low level wizard's charm spell is going to hit thog. We're looking at +5 base save, +3 on Will Saves with an extra +4 against enchantments, even assuming he doesn't have Steadfast Determination to take advantage of his really high con, and has a low Wisdom, he has a +12 vs enchantment effects. He'll pass vs a low level Wizard on a 2 or 3.

BlackestOfMages
2011-11-13, 09:40 AM
Thog is probably keeping Z company in jail. Remember, as a major character, he cannot die off-panel.

but if he died, it wasn't off-pannel. if he died, it was most likely having a building coming down on him*

though, as pointed out, even a 20th level barbarian, if strip naked, beat in a fight, and had a building collapse on them would probably be easy pickings for 30 guards with heavy crossbows.

edit: numbers. he has no armour, and I doubt he has all that high dex, so let's say AC 10 (-2 for rage, + 2 for dex, being generous). average human warrior would have +1 to hit, normal NPC array would not give another, so hiting 11/20 times, or 55% chance. they don't need to move all the rocks before they start shooting him (in fact, doing so would be stupid) so he'd likely have some form of concealment from the first few volleys. If the rocks are in place, he'd be taking crushing damage each round for having their weight bearing down on him as well, even if the crossbows do nothing.

* I know DnD falling object rules would most lilely leave him alive if a planet fell on him, but since this is a story not a campaig, that's most likely moot...

...or the source of a joke if he comes back.

Lord Bingo
2011-11-13, 09:43 AM
Thog's dead, baby. Thog's dead...

Leecros
2011-11-13, 09:59 AM
Thog is probably keeping Z company in jail. Remember, as a major character, he cannot die off-panel.

IIRC i remember people making the same argument during Erfworld book 1, yet sure enough:

(Erfworld Spoilers)
Ansom dies off-panel. In the one strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0144.html) he's shown being tackled off his rug and in the next strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0145.html) he's dead.

It's a bit unorthodox to kill major characters out of sight, granted, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Being off-panel does not make a character invincible in any sense of the word if the writer wants him dead. On top of that, to be honest, i wouldn't rate Thog as a major character. He's a fairly substantial minor character, but only due to the number of appearances and his popularity amonst the readers(neither of which are criteria that on their own substantiate a 'major' character). Really, his only purpose in the comic is to be one of Nale's mooks(for lack of a better word). He hasn't had any other bearing on the comic. Nale could have found someone else and it probably wouldn't have altered the comic too much.

Cranica
2011-11-13, 10:48 AM
Actually I'd give him pretty good odds. Low level guards are probably looking at a 50% shot at best of hitting even a raging barbarian. Possibly less. A heavy Crossbow bolt has a ~40% chance of doing no damage at all to him thanks to DR. We're looking at 30 attacks per round in total dealing less damage to him than he'd normally take from a hit from something he expects to fight. If he has a decent dex, or other inherent armor increase, that drops dramatically very quickly.


Keep in mind that Thog is probably very, very low on hp if he's not into the negatives. I did the math on the damage back in the thread for the comic where the roof fell on him, based on what we know he's at <40 hp even being generous with his rolls. Using your numbers, that's 30 shots with a 20% chance of damaging per shot = 6 damaging shots on average per round, even if they only did 1 damage he'd be down in 8 rounds. He'd also be very hard-pressed to stop one of 30 guards from getting away to call for help.

ThePhantasm
2011-11-13, 10:52 AM
I hope he's dead.

Klear
2011-11-13, 11:00 AM
(Erfworld Spoilers)
Ansom dies off-panel. In the one strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0144.html) he's shown being tackled off his rug and in the next strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0145.html) he's dead.

...but he gets uncroaked 12 pages after that. It's not like it's a permanent death.

BTW, I think I've finally though of a crazy theory this forum seems to be famous for - maybe Thog is already out of the rubble and captured. Tarquin only doesn't want that to become public knowledge. The way he's trying to recruit Roy while pretending he is dead, maybe he wants to use Thog for something as well, which Roy (and us) doesn't need to know.

It would have been simpler to just tell Roy that Thog is dead, but such an off-panel death would be a giveaway for us readers.

Maybe I'm just overthinking this, but at least I finally got the chance to put forth some kind of improbable theory of my own =)

Studoku
2011-11-13, 12:08 PM
The problem here is that freeing Thog from the rubble might injure or kill him. It is impossible to observe his state without changing it.

He is now Schroedinger's Thog.

Leecros
2011-11-13, 12:35 PM
...but he gets uncroaked 12 pages after that. It's not like it's a permanent death.


That is...arguable.


Besides, he still died off-panel. Regardless of how permanent of a death that was.

Gift Jeraff
2011-11-13, 12:43 PM
I think Thog is having a good time in the free ball pit Talky-Man just gave him.

Dr.Epic
2011-11-13, 03:02 PM
They imprisoned Thog once so I'm sure they can do it again.

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-11-13, 04:22 PM
They imprisoned Thog once so I'm sure they can do it again.
I don’t think they’d bother. Tarquin wants Thog dead. The only thing keeping him alive was the arena PR. He now has the perfect cover to make sure Thog gets dead with plenty of plausible deniability as to the cause.

veti
2011-11-13, 05:05 PM
I hope he's dead.

If Thog were dead, we would have seen him, with X in his eyes, being pulled out of the rubble. It would only have taken one frame. Heck, it could have happened in the background while Roy and Tarquin were talking.

There's only one conceivable reason why we shouldn't have seen it, and that's because it's not happening. Thog lives.

King of Nowere
2011-11-13, 06:10 PM
I think I'm misunderstood. I really have no qualms about thog's fate being uncertain, I'm surely not complaining about that, and it wasn't the point I intended to discuss. I'm saying that the passage between 813, with that "we won't know until we dig him out", and 814, where thog seems forgotten, seems a bit off. I think all the previous strips pointed to a moment when the characters went to check the rubbles.
If the point was keeping the mistery, a "that's too much stuff here, we'll have to bring some machinery, won't know until later" would have been perfetly appropriate, but the way the fate of thog slipped out of anyone's concern don't feel rigth to me.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not complaining about the story. Not at all. I'm the first to say that oots is awesome in every single story arc. You don't need to rally to defend the comic.

Dr.Epic
2011-11-13, 06:18 PM
I don’t think they’d bother. Tarquin wants Thog dead. The only thing keeping him alive was the arena PR. He now has the perfect cover to make sure Thog gets dead with plenty of plausible deniability as to the cause.

1. They still wouldn't have to worry about Thog escaping then.

2. Tarquin could have rigged Thog's fights in the past so he'd lose: make sure Thog was at low HP, given the opponent far superior weapons, hit Thog up with status penalties.

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-11-13, 06:33 PM
I'm saying that the passage between 813, with that "we won't know until we dig him out", and 814, where thog seems forgotten, seems a bit off. I think all the previous strips pointed to a moment when the characters went to check the rubbles.
If the point was keeping the mistery, a "that's too much stuff here, we'll have to bring some machinery, won't know until later" would have been perfetly appropriate, but the way the fate of thog slipped out of anyone's concern don't feel rigth to me.
I’m gonna side with the earlier suggestion that there was too much rubble, and it could take a day or so to dig him out. Though the right spellcaster could speed that up, Tarquin may not wish to bother.


2. Tarquin could have rigged Thog's fights in the past so he'd lose: make sure Thog was at low HP, given the opponent far superior weapons, hit Thog up with status penalties.
Who’s to say he didn’t make an attempt at rigging the fight. Thog was just that unstoppable. Tarquin would be restrained in such efforts, as well, because obviously stacking the deck against Thog could lead to a PR backlash when the crowd favorite is so poorly treated. Might even be worse than if he had slit Thog’s throat.

Dr.Epic
2011-11-13, 06:51 PM
Who’s to say he didn’t make an attempt at rigging the fight. Thog was just that unstoppable. Tarquin would be restrained in such efforts, as well, because obviously stacking the deck against Thog could lead to a PR backlash when the crowd favorite is so poorly treated. Might even be worse than if he had slit Thog’s throat.

I think someone as clever as Tarquin - who's been keeping the various nations at war and creating new ones when they topple and hasn't been caught yet - could manage to kill one mid-to-high-level barbarian in a rigged fight and make it look like it was legit.

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-11-13, 08:35 PM
I think someone as clever as Tarquin - who's been keeping the various nations at war and creating new ones when they topple and hasn't been caught yet - could manage to kill one mid-to-high-level barbarian in a rigged fight and make it look like it was legit.
If getting rid of Thog was a sufficient priority to put up the kind of effort that would entail, sure. After the first few attempts failed, he simply wasn’t willing to put forth any more time or money to the thing.

Jay R
2011-11-13, 11:23 PM
There's only one conceivable reason why we shouldn't have seen it, and that's because it's not happening.

Simply untrue. There are lots of conceivable reasons. For instance:
1. The Giant has a really funny strip planned based on digging him out, that requires the entire Order of the Stick to be together to make the punch line work.
2. There's a plot element coming that requires Thog's life or death to be unknown.
3. The big reveal will be connected to the next episode with Nale, in which he takes attempts to take disproportionate revenge on Roy.
4. There was no particular reason to tell that fact right now, and the Giant was telling the actual story, instead.
5. There's going to be a big revolt of all the Thog fans, sparked by the moment in which his body is uncovered.
6. There's a weird connection between Nale and Girard, which requires Thog to be resurrected at a certain time.

In short, without knowing all the remaining plot, there's no way to decide that there is "only one conceivable reason" for any single story-telling decision.

Geordnet
2011-11-13, 11:45 PM
5. There's going to be a big revolt of all the Thog fans, sparked by the moment in which his body is uncovered.

You know, this could be reason enough to delay: if we have to wait a bit to find out the truth, then it'll soften the blow as die-hard Thog fans will have had time to steel themselves for it.


Really though, it's only been six strips since we last saw thog; I think we can wait a few more before concluding he's been "forgotten". Have a bit more faith in Rich than that.

FujinAkari
2011-11-14, 08:04 AM
Thog's dead. Tarquin finishing him off isn't relevant to the OOTS storyline, so it isn't being shown.

To me, its just like back in the day everyone was waiting to see Miko judged, and Rich never showed it. It simply would serve no purpose to the story Rich is telling, he has established that Thog is helpless and at the mercy of someone who actively wants him dead, so actually using up a strip to show Thog getting finished off won't advance the story Rich wants to tell.

Gift Jeraff
2011-11-14, 11:19 AM
Thog's dead. Tarquin finishing him off isn't relevant to the OOTS storyline, so it isn't being shown.

To me, its just like back in the day everyone was waiting to see Miko judged, and Rich never showed it. It simply would serve no purpose to the story Rich is telling, he has established that Thog is helpless and at the mercy of someone who actively wants him dead, so actually using up a strip to show Thog getting finished off won't advance the story Rich wants to tell.Big difference between seeing a character's afterlife and knowing if a character died off-panel. If anything, bringing up Miko's death serves as a reminder of the ridiculous things these characters survive. Yeah yeah, O-Chul has a Con in the mid-20s, but still. And what about Nale and Sabine? It would be incredibly easy for Sabine to teleport in, disguise as someone assigned to uncover/kill him, and rescue him. Or for Sabine to free Zz'dtri, who can easily rescue Thog as well (conjuration).

I wouldn't be too surprised if Thog already died, but if he's alive and considered valuable to either Nale or the Directors, then I'm sure he'll get out.

AutomatedTeller
2011-11-14, 12:03 PM
Checking to see if Thog is alive is about the definition of something best left for underlings to do, if he even cares. Especially since the whole structure is probably unstable.

Could easily see just leaving him there as being a reasonable choice...

Leecros
2011-11-14, 12:05 PM
And what about Nale and Sabine? It would be incredibly easy for Sabine to teleport in, disguise as someone assigned to uncover/kill him, and rescue him. Or for Sabine to free Zz'dtri, who can easily rescue Thog as well (conjuration).

Except that the guards are(or very soon will be) on high alert for a shapeshifter. On top of the fact that they(Nale/Sabine) most likely don't know anything about what happened at the arena just yet. The arena itself is a good distance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0775.html) away from the actual city.

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-11-14, 12:24 PM
Except that the guards are(or very soon will be) on high alert for a shapeshifter. On top of the fact that they(Nale/Sabine) most likely don't know anything about what happened at the arena just yet. The arena itself is a good distance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0775.html) away from the actual city.
Yeah, Nale is making his way through a city that has just been put on alert to his presence (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0812.html), and Sabine is waiting for him
back at “base” (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0811.html), wherever that is. I don’t think either of them are going to be able to do much about Thog for a while.

The Pilgrim
2011-11-14, 12:48 PM
Tarquin's comment about not knowing yet if Thog is alive or dead, seems to suggest that Rich hasn't finished off yet the Half Orc.

Miko died on screen, was shown with the double-X on her eyes and a split-in-two corpse. Rich even invested a panel with Tsukiko to show that the Paladin was not coming back, not even as a Undead.

Thog? rocks fall and he dies beneath a pile of rubble? without showing the corpse? I don't buy it. He will be back for the last round of the Linear Guild. Or, if THIS is the last round of the Linear Guild, I see a "Die Hard" Karl-esque scene.

Bulldog Psion
2011-11-14, 01:52 PM
Whatever, I wish they'd hurry up and die already. They were fun the first couple of times around, this time they're just tedious. :smallsigh:

rbetieh
2011-11-14, 03:33 PM
Whatever, I wish they'd hurry up and die already. They were fun the first couple of times around, this time they're just tedious. :smallsigh:

Do not make Tsukiko create the Undead Linear Guild....It will have Zombie Thog, Glittering Vampire Nale, And a bunch of Whight Kobolds...

AutomatedTeller
2011-11-14, 09:19 PM
I think Tarquin just care enough to personally check about Thog, especially in a stadium that's been structurally compromised. he has minions to do that (and get killed when more stuff falls)

Jay R
2011-11-14, 10:25 PM
This is a D&D world - why would whether or not he's dead affect whether he will return?

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-11-14, 10:44 PM
This is a D&D world - why would whether or not he's dead affect whether he will return?
Because, among other things, it is not clear that Nale and Sabine would spend the time, effort, and money to bring him back. They are the only ones ones that would possibly be motivated to do so.

Emanick
2011-11-15, 01:30 AM
Because, among other things, it is not clear that Nale and Sabine would spend the time, effort, and money to bring him back. They are the only ones ones that would possibly be motivated to do so.

Also, if Thog's body is destroyed, it would be presumably almost impossible for him to be resurrected. If Haley is unsure whether any 17th level clerics exist in the world (besides Redcloak and now, I suspect, Malack), I'm quite skeptical of Nale's ability to find one.

Raistlin82
2011-11-25, 11:40 AM
Because, among other things, it is not clear that Nale and Sabine would spend the time, effort, and money to bring him back. They are the only ones ones that would possibly be motivated to do so.

Doesn't Thog have a family? A clan? An admirer who wants to keep this avatar of death active? You just don't have any element to say so.

Not that it matters, anyway... Thog's obviously still alive, no matter how many times some Bruce Willis wannabe quotes Pulp Fiction.

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-11-25, 11:49 AM
Doesn't Thog have a family? A clan? An admirer who wants to keep this avatar of death active?
If he does, such an individual has yet to show themselves. Until such a time as this individual does so, we cannot assume he does.

Even then, should such an individual present him or her self, that individual would have to be aware of Thog’s current state and either posses or be capable of obtaining the necessary resources to provide some sort of resurrection.


Not that it matters, anyway... Thog's obviously still alive, no matter how many times some Bruce Willis wannabe quotes Pulp Fiction.
Please, indulge me for a moment: If it is so obvious that Thog is alive, could you please point out what makes it so?

Leecros
2011-11-25, 11:54 AM
blasphemy. Clearly if Thog is dead then the combined power of the Thog-Fandom will bring him back to life.

Adicted To
2011-11-25, 07:34 PM
Thog is alive and dead at the same moment. :smallbiggrin:

This is a typical Schrödingers cat situation.

Because it is impossible for us to determine whether Thog is dead or alive until it is shown/said he is both alive and dead at the same moment.

Dr.Epic
2011-11-26, 04:58 PM
Thog is believed to be dead. And he must let the world think that he is dead until he can find a way to control the raging spirit that dwells within him. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d4C1ZQKmw4):smallwink:

Get it? Because he's a barbarian.

Psyren
2011-11-26, 06:36 PM
I'm pretty sure he's alive, but wouldn't be upset at all if he was dead. If Tarquin is smart at all he'll take the opportunity to neatly CDG him now that he's out of the public eye (and had such a public defeat.) Since his ass got kicked in full view of his supporters there's no reason to keep him alive any longer.

Dr.Epic
2011-11-26, 08:24 PM
I'm pretty sure he's alive, but wouldn't be upset at all if he was dead.

What? Thog is one of the funniest things in this strip. Why don't we just remove Haley, Elan, and Belkar too and have the entire strip just focus on Roy and his awesome comedy?

Kish
2011-11-26, 09:04 PM
Thog is a villain. A second-string villain. He is unlikely to survive throughout the comic. He should not, in any way, be treated as though his importance compares to Haley, Elan, Belkar, or any of the six protagonists.

Dr.Epic
2011-11-26, 09:13 PM
Thog is a villain. A second-string villain. He is unlikely to survive throughout the comic.

Yeah, because Rich doesn't poke fun at conventional story telling methods at all.


He should not, in any way, be treated as though his importance compares to Haley, Elan, Belkar, or any of the six protagonists.

Yep, Thog should not be treated like anyone of those characters. After all, as we all know, Haley, Elan, and BELKAR (Belkar, Belkar, Belkar, have I mention BELKAR) are not going to die in the comic. No one's made a definite prediction about that.:smallwink:

Warmage
2011-11-28, 10:51 AM
His "off-screen" death looked pretty on-screen to me. I saw a coliseum collapse on him. Pretty on-screen if you ask me. Granted, a barbarian that just got out of rage (and lost his Con bonus) after getting hurt quite a bit by a fighter probably doesn't have a whole lot of hp. Low hp + collapsing roof = negative hp. Thog could've been killed immediately or bled out.

That being said, this is a D&D world, death is not final. Thog could very well be back the next time we see the Linear Guild. Some people don't think Nale would waste the time and money on ressurecting Thog, but everyone loves Thog, even Nale. He would definitely spend some resources to raise such a powerful ally. Also, it would fit better with the whole evil opposties theme.

I see this all happening off-panel and us viewers only learning about it during the next crazy ambush scenario. A single line of dialogue is all that's needed.

FujinAkari
2011-11-28, 03:14 PM
Yep, Thog should not be treated like anyone of those characters. After all, as we all know, Haley, Elan, and BELKAR (Belkar, Belkar, Belkar, have I mention BELKAR) are not going to die in the comic. No one's made a definite prediction about that.:smallwink:

That isn't what she's saying. What she's saying is that the focus on "Omg! Thog can't die off-screen, so clearly he must not be dead!" isn't valid for Thog. This is the story of the Order of the Stick, and any of the six protagonists necessarily require that their story be fleshed out and complete. Belkar, when he does die, will have a very definite death. There won't be ambiguity about it.

Thog, by contrast, is not the focus of the story, and a presumed death at the end of an epic battle is acceptable.

Am I saying Thog is definately dead? No (though I personally think he is), I'm saying that Thog's defeat could easily be the last we see of him, and that wouldn't be inappropriate.

Leecros
2011-11-28, 03:26 PM
Why don't we just remove Haley, Elan, and Belkar too and have the entire strip just focus on Roy and his awesome comedy?

well, if we're going that far, lets just go all the way. Lets remove Haley, Elan, Belkar, AND Roy, and just have the entire strip focus on Durkon and his awesome comedy.

AutomatedTeller
2011-11-28, 04:03 PM
Personally, I think Thog is alive, because he's one of the funniest characters in the comic. I think he needs at least one more shot at upstaging an evil monologue with references to the gumpdrop mountains.

I dunno how he would have survived that, but I think he did. Heck, people survive collapsing buildings all the time - most don't, of course, but some do. My guess is that he gets rescued by a pack of puppies with ice cream.

Adicted To
2011-11-28, 04:07 PM
Of course this could be called karma, I mean he did murder a earth fairy in cold blood.

Leecros
2011-11-28, 09:21 PM
Personally, I think Thog is alive, because he's one of the funniest characters in the comic.

If OotS was still a joke-a-day series like it was initially then i would be inclined to agree with you, but now that it has plot i'm going to have to say...like i have with all of the "Belkar will survive his prophecy because he's too funny to die" .

Being funny doesn't mean a character will live or not die until near the end of the story. I've actually seen quite a few films and have read quite a few books where the funny man dies and a few where he dies early.

I don't really care one way or another if Thog is alive or not, either way is fine with me. I don't think he's alive, but i'm not going to be shocked, awed, or disappointed if he is. Especially if there's a good reason he IS alive.

However, i'm convinced that even if Thog was butchered, ground up, cremated in a furnace and his ashes dumped into a black hole; People would come up with some theory about the black hole actually being a wormhole that leads to the snarl-world where Thog will be resurrected and invent a jetpack to fly out of the rift and rejoin his comrades....actually that would be pretty awesome

Bulldog Psion
2011-11-29, 09:08 AM
What? Thog is one of the funniest things in this strip. Why don't we just remove Haley, Elan, and Belkar too and have the entire strip just focus on Roy and his awesome comedy?

Thog was funny at one time. This time, I fear, he didn't even raise a chuckle with me. :smallfrown: His "humor" seemed tired and limp this time around, for whatever reason.

And it's rather bizarre to say that having Thog killed is the same thing as having Haley, Elan, and Belkar killed. :smallsigh: The comic did fine without Thog for a long time. It'll do fine without Thog for a long time more. It's about the Order of the Stick, not primarily about the Linear Guild.

There are actually people who like Miko and Shojo. Yet, both of them dead, and we still manage to read the story of the Order of the Stick.

Personally, I don't care if Thog, individually, is alive or dead. I want the whole Linear Guild dead ASAP, though.

Ron Miel
2011-12-01, 12:52 PM
Also, if Thog's body is destroyed, it would be presumably almost impossible for him to be resurrected. If Haley is unsure whether any 17th level clerics exist in the world (besides Redcloak and now, I suspect, Malack), I'm quite skeptical of Nale's ability to find one.

I'm quite skeptical of Nale's ability to give a damn. He was happy to sacrifice Thog to get Elan. He didn't rescue Thog from the arena. He certainly won't pay to have Thog raised, whether he can find a cleric or not.

Bulldog Psion
2011-12-02, 02:53 PM
I'm quite skeptical of Nale's ability to give a damn. He was happy to sacrifice Thog to get Elan. He didn't rescue Thog from the arena. He certainly won't pay to have Thog raised, whether he can find a cleric or not.

Agreed. Everybody is disposable to Nale, except Nale, that is.

Forikroder
2011-12-02, 03:00 PM
1. They still wouldn't have to worry about Thog escaping then.

2. Tarquin could have rigged Thog's fights in the past so he'd lose: make sure Thog was at low HP, given the opponent far superior weapons, hit Thog up with status penalties.

the fans would realise that thog's fight was staged and it would be a ton of bad PR he doesnt want if he just wanted thog dead there were better ways then making all his fans angry by rigging things

Scarlet Knight
2011-12-02, 03:14 PM
Thog is dead. Tha'ts it. His immense popularity will play no part is this. He is as dead as Sherlock Holmes was at the end of The Final Problem.

@v:smallwink:

Emanick
2011-12-03, 01:50 AM
Thog is dead. Tha'ts it. His immense popularity will play no part is this. He is as dead as Sherlock Holmes was at the end of The Final Problem.

And by that, do you mean "it turns out he's actually alive because the fans demanded his return and the author caved to public pressure"? :small tongue:

Belril Duskwalk
2011-12-03, 02:15 AM
And by that, do you mean "it turns out he's actually alive because the fans demanded his return and the author caved to public pressure"? :small tongue:

Precisely. However when Arthur Conan Doyle caved and wrote another Holmes book, he stood to make a considerable amount of money by doing so (seeing as anybody that wanted to read more about Holmes would have to buy the book). I highly doubt The Giant would see a significant upturn in sales of comic books if he suddenly decided to un-kill Thog, particularly seeing as the comic is free online BEFORE the books get printed.


Agreed. Everybody is disposable to Nale, except Nale, that is.

And probably Sabine. But Thog? absolutely disposable.

I see no real reason that prevents Thog being dead. He doesn't seem to have any larger purpose left in the story. No unresolved plot-lines, no greater purpose that couldn't be filled by some other dim-witted skull-crushing hulk. He can't exactly be said to have died "off-screen", having a portion of building land on you is plenty on-screen for a villain such as Thog, who would just about need a building to fall on him to kill him anyway.

To top this all off, Tarquin's men are digging him out, and Tarquin is on the record as saying he wants Thog dead. His one reason for not killing him earlier was that Thog was popular with the crowds, but now that he has lost that shouldn't be an issue and he again has a chance to have him killed without anyone knowing it was done. If you're in charge of a 'recovery' operation and you have decided there are no survivors (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0813.html) before you start, the odds of survival tend to get REAL small. Personally, I would expect if the tons of rock didn't kill Thog the guards will have instructions to crush anything that's left to post-Thog paste.

Red XIV
2011-12-03, 04:56 AM
Obviously he's dead. Every time somebody suffers an apparently unsurvivable defeat but their corpse isn't seen, they're always dead for real. No doubt about it.


To top this all off, Tarquin's men are digging him out, and Tarquin is on the record as saying he wants Thog dead. His one reason for not killing him earlier was that Thog was popular with the crowds, but now that he has lost that shouldn't be an issue and he again has a chance to have him killed without anyone knowing it was done. If you're in charge of a 'recovery' operation and you have decided there are no survivors (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0813.html) before you start, the odds of survival tend to get REAL small. Personally, I would expect if the tons of rock didn't kill Thog the guards will have instructions to crush anything that's left to post-Thog paste.
On the other hand, given Thog's abject stupidity and ability to be easily manipulated, it's not inconceivable that Tarquin could intend to make use of him in some way. After all, he's also "decided" that Roy died at the same time...and proceeded to give him a job offer.

Or maybe Thog's just dead because he serves no further use to the story. Don't really know, and it's not particularly important.

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-12-03, 08:59 AM
On the other hand, given Thog's abject stupidity and ability to be easily manipulated, it's not inconceivable that Tarquin could intend to make use of him in some way. After all, he's also "decided" that Roy died at the same time...and proceeded to give him a job offer.
Tarquin decided Roy was dead because he wanted Roy employed somewhere other than the gladiatorial arena, and declaring him dead avoids a potential PR pothole. We know this because he said Roy was too valuable to be in the arena right before he declared he would fake Roy’s death.

He decided Thog is dead because he wanted Thog dead. We know that because he admitted it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0788.html)

Emanick
2011-12-04, 02:50 AM
Precisely. However when Arthur Conan Doyle caved and wrote another Holmes book, he stood to make a considerable amount of money by doing so (seeing as anybody that wanted to read more about Holmes would have to buy the book). I highly doubt The Giant would see a significant upturn in sales of comic books if he suddenly decided to un-kill Thog, particularly seeing as the comic is free online BEFORE the books get printed.

This doesn't really matter of course, but weren't all of the Holmes short stories published in a serial magazine before appearing in book form? So readers wouldn't really have to buy a Doyle book to read more about Holmes, right?

I could be off on this; I'm not an expert on Sir Arthur or British publication conventions in the late nineteenth century.


And probably Sabine. But Thog? absolutely disposable.

I see no real reason that prevents Thog being dead. He doesn't seem to have any larger purpose left in the story. No unresolved plot-lines, no greater purpose that couldn't be filled by some other dim-witted skull-crushing hulk. He can't exactly be said to have died "off-screen", having a portion of building land on you is plenty on-screen for a villain such as Thog, who would just about need a building to fall on him to kill him anyway.

To top this all off, Tarquin's men are digging him out, and Tarquin is on the record as saying he wants Thog dead. His one reason for not killing him earlier was that Thog was popular with the crowds, but now that he has lost that shouldn't be an issue and he again has a chance to have him killed without anyone knowing it was done. If you're in charge of a 'recovery' operation and you have decided there are no survivors (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0813.html) before you start, the odds of survival tend to get REAL small. Personally, I would expect if the tons of rock didn't kill Thog the guards will have instructions to crush anything that's left to post-Thog paste.

If Thog ends up ends up dead (which seems likely), wouldn't it be logical that Nale would try to resurrect him? Yes, I know, Nale doesn't have any real regard for Thog, but it still makes sense that he would try fairly hard to get Thog back. It would be extremely hard to find a fighter at level ~14 who fills Thog's core role in the party and fits Nale's needs (evil and acceptably loyal to him, with no potentially game-breaking character traits).

Rich even says in DCF that Thog is "strong enough that Nale needs him to carry out his plans, but dumb enough to screw them up." It's quite possible that Rich has changed his mind since, and that Nale no longer feels dependent on Thog, but I don't know why that would be.

Bulldog Psion
2011-12-04, 06:20 PM
If Thog ends up ends up dead (which seems likely), wouldn't it be logical that Nale would try to resurrect him? Yes, I know, Nale doesn't have any real regard for Thog, but it still makes sense that he would try fairly hard to get Thog back. It would be extremely hard to find a fighter at level ~14 who fills Thog's core role in the party and fits Nale's needs (evil and acceptably loyal to him, with no potentially game-breaking character traits).


He sure had no qualms about ditching him in jail and heading off to Azure City without him, and I really doubt he considers Thog to be worth a 10,000 gold piece diamond.

Dracarot
2011-12-04, 10:41 PM
He sure had no qualms about ditching him in jail and heading off to Azure City without him, and I really doubt he considers Thog to be worth a 10,000 gold piece diamond.

However, they could go for a undead Thog rather than a revived Thog. Cheap and if one of the more powerful undead, worth the effort.

Emanick
2011-12-05, 12:00 AM
He sure had no qualms about ditching him in jail and heading off to Azure City without him, and I really doubt he considers Thog to be worth a 10,000 gold piece diamond.

Given the probable massive difficulty of finding a replacement, I'd dispute that point. There are presumably very few fighter-type individuals around Roy's level in OOTSworld. And we don't know if Nale was permanently abandoning Thog when he left him in jail, either - since our favorite goateed villain left half the Linear Guild behind in Cliffport, not just Thog, I'd assume not. Presumably he was planning to return.

But of course, one can't be sure either way.

Bulldog Psion
2011-12-06, 05:57 PM
Given the probable massive difficulty of finding a replacement, I'd dispute that point. There are presumably very few fighter-type individuals around Roy's level in OOTSworld. And we don't know if Nale was permanently abandoning Thog when he left him in jail, either - since our favorite goateed villain left half the Linear Guild behind in Cliffport, not just Thog, I'd assume not. Presumably he was planning to return.

But of course, one can't be sure either way.

Fighter types are pretty weak next to casters, if we're considering pure utility. Finding Leeky Windstaff and persuading him to rejoin would give a far greater boost than Thog does.

And Nale didn't need to permanently abandon Thog in Cliffport to show that he's willing to launch a major attempt on the OotS without the half-orc at his side.

I'd still argue that Thog is "useful, but hardly indispensable".

King of Nowere
2011-12-06, 06:22 PM
thog is a resource. As a resource, he's well worth over 10k gp.
Unless someone can find some way to employ 10k gp that would be better than having thog.
Granted, he's weaker than an equal-level caster, but he's still stronger than 99% of casters around, because very few peopel make it past level 10. Also, thog is very loyal to nale, and that means no risk of backstabbing/doublecrossing, something you always have to fear if you hire an evil adventurer to help you.
10k gp is a not-too-strong magic item. I don't see any 10k gp magic item being able to replace thog.

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-12-06, 07:23 PM
Granted, he's weaker than an equal-level caster, but he's still stronger than 99% of casters around, because very few peopel make it past level 10.
But the Linear Guild won’t be facing members of that 99%. They will be facing the Order of the Stick, whose members are between 13 and 14 15. That is, well over 10.

Emanick
2011-12-07, 12:11 AM
But the Linear Guild won’t be facing members of that 99%. They will be facing the Order of the Stick, whose members are between 13 and 14. That is, well over 10.

Right (though I'd argue higher by now, as Haley and V at least have been shown to be 15+). That being said, it's far better to have a high-level fighter/barbarian on your side than it is to not have that high-level fighter/barbarian on your side. And as King of Nowere pointed out, said tank is even more useful when there's no risk of betrayal thrown into the bargain. It might be literally impossible for the Linear Guild to find a fighter-type character of Thog's level who will a) agree to work with them and b) prove trustworthy.

brionl
2011-12-07, 02:08 AM
Thog is too interesting a character to be squished by rocks. I'm sure we haven't seen the last of him.

factotum
2011-12-07, 02:55 AM
Thog is too interesting a character to be squished by rocks. I'm sure we haven't seen the last of him.

Really? Not so sure what's interesting about a guy who is basically a totally stereotypical Big Dumb Fighter! I mean, seriously, I bet a good proportion of the fighters and barbarians played by real players in real D&D games are basically dumb as a stump muscle, just like Thog.

Ron Miel
2011-12-07, 05:19 AM
Thog & Elan formed an unlikely friendship a couple of books ago. I'm sure this is setting up some future plot twist. Thog won't die at least until it has been paid off. I'm guessing Thog will save Elan's life later.

"Please, Nale, not kill Not-Nale. Not-Nale is Thog's friend. In fact, now Thog thinks of it, Nale left Thog in jail. Twice. Nale not Thog's friend."

That's why I'm certain Thog is alive.

factotum
2011-12-07, 07:53 AM
And Elan just left Thog (presumed dead) under a massive pile of stone...why should Thog consider him more of a friend than Nale? Particularly since he's presumably known Nale for years, whereas his entire "friendly" association with Elan amounts to a couple of days!

Scarlet Knight
2011-12-07, 08:11 AM
Really? Not so sure what's interesting about a guy who is basically a totally stereotypical Big Dumb Fighter! I mean, seriously, I bet a good proportion of the fighters and barbarians played by real players in real D&D games are basically dumb as a stump muscle, just like Thog.

That's the facination of Thog! He is immensely popular despite disappearing from the comic for hundreds of issues. Face it : Miko, Celia, & Mr. Scruffy all have more appearances than Thog. TMITD and Enor are both big, strong , and dumb.... but neither are close to producing the affection of the fans like Thog. Perhaps BECAUSE he strikes a cord with everyone who has ever played a big, dumb fighter and loved it!

Ceaon
2011-12-07, 08:42 AM
I am a bit amazed by the number of psychic people who have all gathered in this topic. "Thog is dead, accept it", "Thog is coming back because he is funny", "I am absolutely sure of it". You know that we can at best guess, not say for certain, what will happen next, right?

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-12-07, 08:50 AM
Right (though I'd argue higher by now, as Haley and V at least have been shown to be 15+).
Right. Typo. I was thinking “15,” but hit a 4 instead of a 5. Post being edited to reflect that.



That's the facination of Thog! He is immensely popular despite disappearing from the comic for hundreds of issues.
Thog is popular because he is fun. Not because he is interesting.

The Zoat
2011-12-07, 09:27 AM
Look at the panel where we see him be crushed. Only the roof falls an him,
and seeing as how the whole thing is breaking up, I doubt it will be enough to kill
thog. I just don't see it.

Ron Miel
2011-12-07, 10:30 AM
And Elan just left Thog (presumed dead) under a massive pile of stone...

No, Elan had nothing to do with that. He was nowhere near when Thog got buried, there's no indication that Thog even knew he was in the audience.

Besides, Tarquin spoke about digging him out, which is maybe happening off-panel right now. He hasn't been left there. I don't see how Thog will blame Not-Nale for that.


why should Thog consider him more of a friend than Nale? Particularly since he's presumably known Nale for years, whereas his entire "friendly" association with Elan amounts to a couple of days!

Thog was even pleased to see Talky-man, and treat him as a friend, until Talky-man attacked him. And it will only take one moment of clear thought for him to realise how badly Nale treats him.

factotum
2011-12-07, 03:45 PM
Look at the panel where we see him be crushed. Only the roof falls an him,
and seeing as how the whole thing is breaking up, I doubt it will be enough to kill
thog. I just don't see it.

Thog was already quite badly wounded due to the fight with Roy, plus his Rage had just expired and thus he was down a load of hitpoints on what he'd been before.

Ron Miel, I think you hit the Nale...er, nail on the head. It would take clear thought for Thog to see how badly Nale treats him, and when has he ever shown signs of that? Even at times when he ought to be most prone to reflecting on his treatment--such as when he was imprisoned with Elan, or while he's been locked up in an iron suit in between arena battles--it doesn't seem to have dented his essential childish glee at death and destruction, and he knows (in his own dim-witted way) that Nale is the best source of that glee he's going to find.

Gift Jeraff
2011-12-07, 04:36 PM
Thog was already quite badly wounded due to the fight with RoyWhat? :smallconfused:

All I see are a small scratch that didn't appear in subsequent strips (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0791.html), the broken tusk, the bolt to the knee, glass in his eyes, and a kick that didn't leave a mark. That's nothing compared to what these characters usually go through. EDIT: Oh, and this clonk (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0788.html) which didn't leave a mark.

Incom
2011-12-07, 06:50 PM
Roy and Thog are opposites. Roy wasn't crushed by a roof and didn't die. Therefore, Thog was crushed by a roof and died. Problem solved.

*trollface*

What I think might make sense is that Thog actually died, but the missing LG member (who never did show up to the fight) rezzes him for what Ron Miel said above. Thog, in other words, gets his own afterlife arc (but the whole thing happens offscreen and is played for laughs, for the sake of the "opposites" thing--not to start that debate again ofc).

Scarlet Knight
2011-12-07, 09:41 PM
Thog, in other words, gets his own afterlife arc (but the whole thing happens offscreen and is played for laughs...

Oh, I would love a Thog afterlife arc with him in a "It's a Wonderful Life" style story for the holidays!

brionl
2011-12-08, 03:27 PM
Oh, I would love a Thog afterlife arc with him in a "It's a Wonderful Life" style story for the holidays!

Like "The Simpsons" one with Homer and Col. Klink as his spirit guide? That could be fun. Or the "Married With Children" one where everybody is better off w/o Al, and he comes back to spite them.

Ulysses WkAmil
2011-12-08, 05:48 PM
It wouldn't make that much sense to kill off Thog in the first place, a lot of people (irl) love him, and Nale could just have him raised. I know that it doesn't have to make sense, and I know that it's a way for The plot to continue uninterrupted. I don't think that game technicalities would apply as much as most would think in this situation. At worst Thog will be up and hacking in a week, after all listen to all he did before the Roy/Thog battle
(Don't know how this ended up on the magic carpet thread (http://http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224851&page=2)...

Raddish
2011-12-08, 11:33 PM
All I see are a small scratch that didn't appear in subsequent strips, the broken tusk, the bolt to the knee, glass in his eyes, and a kick that didn't leave a mark.

:thog: "thog used to be adventurer. then thog took bolt to knee"

If Thog is dead under that rubble, which is the side I lean towards, how is Nale going to get his body back to raise him from the dead? If the order are right in their predicition then he is going to be on his way to the same place they are going and I doubt Tarquin will leave his body there for it to be taken by someone.

Evik
2012-07-03, 12:41 AM
Thog must live.
Ice cream with sprinkles for all!

rgrekejin
2012-07-03, 12:54 AM
Thog must live.
Ice cream with sprinkles for all!

Like this thread, Thog shall rise from the dead to terrorize the living once more?