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Kenneth
2011-11-13, 03:52 PM
SO.. here is my monk ehh revision or whatever. I am going to be honest and admit that i have a distate for Monks in my D&D world, for which I draw from Tolkien, Howard, McCaffrey, Brooks etc.. SO i will be the first to admit I probably didn't do a whole lot to help the monk out in whatever section it might be lacking in, becuase I have just never cared nor paid attention to wherein the class itself was monk failings at. soo with that in mind give it a galnce over and let em know what is up. also if anybody would be so kind a to expalin what eveactly is wrong with teh base monk I would appreciate it and try to work those lackings into this revision


MONK

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Flurry of Blows| Special|Unarmed Damage| AC Bonus | Unarmored Speed Bonus

1st|
+0|
+2|
+2|
+0| -2/-2|Bonus feat, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Tiger Claw, Dragon Talon |1d6 |+0 |+0ft

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+3|
+0|-1/-1 |Bonus feat, Evasion, Fast Movement, Moment of Clarity | 1d6|+1 |+0ft

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+1|+0/+0 |Acrobatics, Still Mind, Kip Up|1d6 |+1 |+10ft

4th|
+3|
+4|
+4|
+1| +1/+1|Ki Strike (magic) slow fall 20ft, Fist of Flame |1d8 |+1 |+10ft

5th|
+3|
+4|
+4|
+1|+2/+2 |Purity of Body, Combat Art Style, Spiritual Bodhi, Spring Attack |1d8 |+2 |+10ft

6th|
+4|
+5|
+5|
+2| +3/+3|Bonus Feat, slow fall 30 ft, Serpent’s Fang |1d8 |+2 |+20ft

7th|
+5|
+5|
+5|
+2| +4/+4|Wholeness of Body, Monkey Fist |1d8 |+2 |+20ft

8th|
+6|
+6|
+6|
+2| +5/+5/+0|Slow Fall 40ft Mountain Stance, Quick Barrage |1d10 |+2 |+20ft

9th|
+6|
+6|
+6|
+3|+6/+6/+1 |Improved Evasion, Cobrat Strike |1d10 |+3 |+30ft

10th|
+7|
+7|
+7|
+3| +7/+7/+2 |Ki Strike(lawful), slow fall 50ft, Strike of the Mantis |1d10 |+3 |+30ft

11th|
+8|
+7|
+7|
+3|+8/+8/+8/+3 |Diamond Body, Greater Flurry, Dragon Tail | 1d0|+3 |+30ft

12th|
+9|
+8|
+8|
+4|+9/+9/+9/+4 | Abundant Step, slow fall 60 ft, Claws of Thunder, Crashing Wave|2d6 |+4 |+40ft

13th|
+9|
+8|
+8|
+8|+9/+9/+9/+4 |Diamond Soul, Unrestraintant Journey | 2d6|+4 |+40ft

14th|
+10|
+9|
+9|
+4|+10/+10/+10/+5 |Slow Fall 70ft |2d6 |+4 |+40ft

15th|
+11|
+9|
+9|
+5|+11/+11/+11/+6/+1 |Quivering Palm |2d6 |+4 |+50ft

16th|
+12|
+10|
+10|
+5 |+12/+12/+12/+7/+2 |Ki Strike (adamantine), Monkey Stance |2d8 |+5 |+50ft

17th|
+12|
+10|
+10|
+5|+12/+12/+12/+7/+2 |Timeless Body, tongue of the sun and moon |2d8 |+5 |+50ft

18th|
+13|
+11|
+11|
+6|+13/+13/+13/+8/+3 |slow fall 80 ft |2d8 |+5 |+60ft

19th|
+14|
+11|
+11|
+6| +14/+14/+14/+9/+4 |Empty Body |2d8 |+6 |+60ft

20th|
+15|
+12|
+12|
+6|+15/+15/+15/+10/+5 | Slow fall any distance, Perfect self, Phoenix Strike|2d10 |+6 |+60ft [/table]

Alignment
Any lawful.

Hit Die
d8.

Class Skills
The monk’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).

Skill Points at 1st Level
(4 + Int modifier) ×4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level
4 + Int modifier.

Class Features

All of the following are class features of the monk.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency

Monks are proficient with club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, sling, as well as unarmed strike and flurry of blows.

Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields

When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses her AC bonus, as well as her fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.

AC Bonus (Ex)

When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 2nd level. This bonus increases according to the table above.

These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.

Flurry of Blows (Ex)

When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th level it disappears. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows. In addition successfully hitting an opponent during a flurry of blows routine grants 1 combat charge.

When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1˝ or ×˝) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.

In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so.

Combat Charges and Finishers
Upon performing certain actions a Monk gains access to certain more powerful moves A Combat charge last until a particular encounter is over or is the monk is rendered unconscious, paralyzed, helpless, or stunned. A total of 3 combat charges may be strored at any one time. a Finisher is an ability that only comes inot effect when a monk has combat charges stored upon a successful attack roll and dependant on the number of charges the monk has stored a finisher has the effects described in its listing.


Greater Flurry
When a monk reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus.




Unarmed Strike
At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

A monk also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table: The Monk. The unarmed damage on Table: The Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with her unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Table: Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage.
{table=head] Level | Damage (small) | Damage (large)
1-3|1d4 |1d8
4-7 | 1d6|2d6
8-11|1d8 |2d8
12-15 | 1d10|3d6
16-19 |1d6 |3d8
20|2d8 |4d8
[/table]

Bonus Feat
At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, she may select either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat. At 6th level, she may select either Improved Disarm or Improved Trip as a bonus feat. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.

Tiger Claw (Ex)
As an attack action deal an extra point of damage per monk level on a successful attack. This ability grants 1 combat charge

Dragon Talon -finisher- (Ex) as a standard action make an attack roll, if successful this ability has effects dependant on the amount of combat charges the monk has acquired.
1 charge deal 1d8 plus 1 per every 2nd monk level
2 charges deal 1d8 plus 1 per every 2nd monk level plus knock the opponent back 5 feet
3 charge deal 1d4 for every 2 monk levels and knock opponent back 5 feet

Evasion (Ex)
At 2nd level or higher if a monk makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a monk is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Moment of Clarity (Ex)
As an immediate action a monk may use a concentration check in place of a will save.

Fast Movement (Ex)
At 3rd level, a monk gains an enhancement bonus to her speed, as shown on Table: The Monk. A monk in armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this extra speed.

Acrobatics (Ex)
At 3rd level monk gains a +5 competence bonus on Balance, Jump, and Tumble checks. This bonus increases by +2 every 3 levels afterwards. In addition, at 10th level a monk can always choose to take 10 on a Balance, Jump, or Tumble check.

Still Mind (Ex)
A monk of 3rd level or higher gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against spells and effects from the school of enchantment.

Kip Up (Ex)
At 2nd level, a monk may stand up from prone as a free action that still provokes an attack of oppurtiny, or as a move action that does not provoke an attack of oppurtunity.

Ki Strike (Su)
At 4th level, a monk’s unarmed attacks are empowered with ki. Her unarmed attacks are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the character’s monk level. At 10th level, her unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. At 16th level, her unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction and bypassing hardness.

Slow Fall (Ex)
At 4th level or higher, a monk within arm’s reach of a wall can use it to slow her descent. When first using this ability, she takes damage as if the fall were 20 feet shorter than it actually is. The monk’s ability to slow her fall (that is, to reduce the effective distance of the fall when next to a wall) improves with her monk level until at 20th level she can use a nearby wall to slow her descent and fall any distance without harm.

Enlightened Strikes (Ex)
At 4th level a monk can add her Wis modifier to her unarmed attacks’ damage rolls as well as attack rolls.

Fists of Flame (Su)
At 4th level can for a number of minutes equal to twice her monk level have her unarmed attacks deal an additional 1d4 points of fire damage, this ability must be spent in 1 minute increments

Purity of Body (Ex)
At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases except for supernatural and magical diseases as well as a bonus to her save equal to her monk level against supernatural and magical diseases. In addition any disease based spell, ability, effect, or attack that allows a saveing throughf or a reduced effect is completely negated upon a successful save.


Combat Art Style
At 5th level a monk chooses one of the following styles and gains various abilities dependant on which style she chose.

Crane
Gain Acrobatic as a bonus feat at 5th level
Gain Improved Trip as a bonus feat at 7th level as well as ignore penalties for difficult terrain
Gain Improved Feint as a bonus feat at 9th level and successfully damaging a target during a flurry of blows renders the target flat-footed
A monk who successfully damages a target prevents that target from taking a full round action for 1 round at 14th level
At 20th level a monk can redirect an opponent’s attack back on itself when fighting defensively or taking the full defensive action

Turtle
Increase Natural armor by +1 at 5th level, increasing by +1 for every 3 levels afterwards.
Gain blind sense out to 20 feet at 9th level
At 12th level a monk gains gains a +2 cumulative morale bonus to AC for evey attack that misses her, these bonuses last untill either combat has ended or the monk is rendered helpless, paralyzed, immobilized or stunned.
At 16th level gains the ability give herself temporary hit points equal to 6d10 + 1 per monk level (maximum +20). This takes 2 full round and the bonus hit points last 10 minutes per monk level.

Monkey
Gain Agile as a bonus feat at 5th level
Gain Athletic and Mobility as bonus feats at 8th level
Gain the Uncanny Dodge ability at 10th level
At 12th level a monk can move up to her full speed and make a flurry of blows attack
At 15th level a monk can move up to her speed and each time she leaves a square adjacent to the enemy, she can make a single melee attack against that foe. A monk cannot attack a single enemy more than once with this ability.

Pheonix
Every successful attack the monk does causes the opponent to become dazzled for 1 round at 5th level at 10th level even creatures immune to dazzle are effected by this ability.
At 8th level when a target dies to the monk’s attacks it explodes in a 5 foot radius for 1d4 fire damage per 2 monk levels (max 10d4 at 20th) The monk is immune to this damage
At 14th level a monk’s attacks have the ability to catch the target on fire dealing 2d6 fire damage a round for 3 rounds a reflex save at DC 10+ half Monk level+Dex to overcome
At 20th level a monk can be reborn. If killed she remains dead for only 1d4 rounds unless its body is completely destroyed by an effect such as disintegrate. Otherwise, a fully healed monk emerges from the remains 1d4 rounds after death, as if brought back to life via resurrection. The monk gains 1 permanent negative level when this occurs. A monk can self-resurrect only once per year. If a monk dies a second time before that year passes, its death is permanent. A monk that dies within the area of a desecrate spell cannot self-resurrect until the desecrate effect ends, at which point the monk immediately resurrects. A monk brought back to life by other means never gains negative levels as a result.

Spiritual Bodhi (Su)
A monk gains the ability to increase her physical and well as mental attributes.Upon a standard action this ability allows her to gain the benefits of the following spells that last for 1 minute plus 1 minutes per monk level a number of times per day equal to half the monk's level plus her Con modifer(minumum once); Divine Favor, Shield of Faith, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Eagle's Splendor, Fox's Cunning, Owl's Wisdom, Enlarge Person, and Resist Energy. The monk gains the benefits of the following spells that last 1 round plus 1 round per monk level Blur, Darkvision, Detect Thoughts, Haste, a monk can enact these benefits a number of times per day equal to 1 plus her Con Modifier.
At 9th level a monk gains the benefits of the following spells Air Walk, Death Ward, Divine Agility. These ability require a full round and last 1 round for every monk level and can only be used 3 times per day.
These abilities only effect the monk are not spells they only duplicate the named spells effects, these are gained thorugh meditation and force of will.
The castster level for these spell mimics for purposes of variables (such as what amount of luck bonus you get from Divine Favor, or how much of a deflection bonus you get from Shield of Faith) is equal to your monk level

Spring Attack (Ex)
At 5th level a monk gains Spring Attack as a bonus feat even if she does not meet the requirements

Serpent's Fang (Ex)
As an attack action a monk deals an extra 3d4+1 damage. If this attack is a critical strike it allows a 2nd regular attack at the same modifer. This ability grants 1 combat charge

Wholeness of Body (Su)
At 7th level or higher, a monk can heal her own wounds. She can heal a number of hit points of damage equal to thrice her current monk level each day, and she can spread this healing out among several uses.

Monkey Fist -finisher- (Ex)
At 7th level as a standard action make an attack roll, if successful this ability has effects dependant on the amount of combat charges the monk has acquired.
1 charge deal 1d4 per every 2nd monk level
2 charges deal 1d6 per every 2nd monk level plus gives the monk a +1 dodge bonus to AC for every 4th monk level
3 charge deal 1d8 for every 2 monk levels plus gives the monk a +1 dodge bonus to AC for every 2 monk levels


Mountain Stance (Ex)
At 8th level a monk when fighting in defensively or taking the full defense action gains DR2/-. The DR increases by 1 for ever fourth level after wards

Quick Barrage (Ex)
At 8th level a monk can move up to 10 feet plus half her bonus speed and make a Flurry of Blows attack.

Improved Evasion (Ex)
At 9th level, a monk’s evasion ability improves. She still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, but henceforth she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Cobra Strike (Ex)
As a standard action at 9th level a monk causes an opponent successfully attacked to become sickened. In addition this ability also heals the monk for one fifth the amount of damage done (rounded down)This ability grants a combat charge.

Strike of the Mantis (Ex)
At 10th level a monk’s unarmed attacks are able to deal slashing damage as well.

Diamond Body (Su)
At 11th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds.

Dragon Tail (Ex)
At 11th level as an attack action deal an extra 1d10 points damage on a successful attack as well as cause the foes to suffer a -2 penalty to attacks and AC. This ability grants 1 combat charge

Abundant Step (Su)
At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door, once per day. Her caster level for this effect is one-half her monk level (rounded down).

Claws of Thunder (Su)
At 12th level can for a number of minutes equal to twice her monk level have her unarmed attacks deal an additional 1d12 points of electrical damage, this ability must be spent in 1 minute increments

Crashing Wave - Finisher- (Ex)
as a standard action make an attack roll, if successful this ability has effects dependant on the amount of combat charges the monk has acquired.
1 charge deal 1d8 per every 2nd monk level plus dazes the opponent for 1 round
2 charges deal 1d12 per every 2nd monk level plus dazes the opponent for 1d4 rounds
3 charges deal 1d8 per every monk level knocks target prone plus dazes the opponent for 1d4 rounds


Diamond Soul (Ex)
At 13th level, a monk gains spell resistance equal to her current monk level + 10. In order to affect the monk with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the monk’s spell resistance. This spell resistance only applies to spells of a detrimental nature to the monk.

Unrestraitant Journey (Ex)
at 13th level a monk is considered under the effects of Freedom of Movement at all times.

Quivering Palm (Su)
Starting at 15th level, a monk can set up vibrations within the body of another creature that can thereafter be fatal if the monk so desires. She can use this quivering palm attack once a day, and she must announce her intent before making her attack roll. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be affected. Otherwise, if the monk strikes successfully and the target takes damage from the blow, the quivering palm attack succeeds. Thereafter the monk can try to slay the victim at any later time, as long as the attempt is made within a number of days equal to her monk level. To make such an attempt, the monk merely wills the target to die (a free action), and unless the target makes a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + ˝ the monk’s level + the monk’s Wis modifier), it dies. If the saving throw is successful, the target is no longer in danger from that particular quivering palm attack, but it may still be affected by another one at a later time.

Monkey Stance (Ex)
At 16 th level a monk can make a 5 foot step for every attack that misses her, she may not move further than her base movement with the use of this ability.

Timeless Body (Ex)
Upon attaining 17th level, a monk no longer takes penalties to her ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that she has already taken, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and the monk still dies of old age when her time is up.

Tongue of the Sun and Moon (Ex)
A monk of 17th level or higher can speak with any living creature.

Empty Body (Su)
At 19th level, a monk gains the ability to assume an ethereal state for 1 round per monk level per day, as though using the spell etherealness. She may go ethereal on a number of different occasions during any single day, as long as the total number of rounds spent in an ethereal state does not exceed her monk level.


Phoenix Strike -finisher- (Su)
as a standard action make an attack roll, if successful this ability has effects dependant on the amount of combat charges the monk has acquired.
1 charge deal 1d6 per every 2nd monk level fire damage
2 charges deal 1d8+1 per every 2nd monk level fire damage
3 charge deal 1d6 for every monk level and in additional creature immune to fire take 1 fire damage per die rolled

Perfect Self
At 20th level, a monk becomes a magical creature. She is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the monk gains damage reduction 7/-, which allows her to ignore the first 7 points of damage from any attack made by a weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature. Unlike other outsiders, the monk can still be brought back from the dead as if she were a member of her previous creature type.

Qwertystop
2011-11-13, 04:24 PM
Just glanced over it, but here's something:

You didn't fix several major problems:

The Monk, a melee class, having a 3/4 BAB.

No proficiency with Unarmed Strikes.

Fast Movement working directly against Flurry of Blows

Slow Fall imitating a 1st level spell, except worse due to needing to be near a wall, and only short distances until level 20.

Perfect Self making them count as an Outsider, making them un-buffable with normal buffing spells like Enlarge Person.


Honestly, at first glance, it seems you just took the Monk chassis and piled a bunch of extra abilities on top, which do little-to-nothing to fix the problem. In fact, one of the problems with the Monk is that it has an enormous amount of abilities, which makes new players think it must be awesome, but the abilities don't help each other (and sometimes work against each other), so it's a trap.

Kenneth
2011-11-14, 05:37 PM
I will point outteh answer to your concerns about a monk's problems and the maybe fixes.

1) as a monk for me is more of a skirmisher than a head to head warrior, i fail to see what a full base attack bonus would be needed, as we all know that a full base attack is over rated anyways

2) the no proficiencey with unarmed strieks is following teh same open ended logic that drowning heals and unlimited mount and dismounting of horse leads to so..

3) you just skipped over a solution to this as you just took a glance so, this one is rendered invalid

4) the monk is not a spell caster, though it might have often times oddly acquired supernatural abilites actually casting a spell is not somehting it can do, so why should a monk not casting a spell even be a point of contention?

5) I went back and edited a new ability in that gives teh monk the spells you were asking for though in some cases in a much better way.

Qwertystop
2011-11-14, 06:17 PM
You misunderstood me entirely on some counts. As you said at the top, you don't know what is wrong with the PHB Monk.

1) Just because having a full base attack bonus is overrated doesn't mean that a character specifically based on making melee attacks doesn't need one. Do you really think it's a good thing for a Monk to be worse at hitting people than EVERY OTHER FIGHTING CLASS?

2) The Monk class you made is not proficient with Unarmed Strikes. This is a simple fact of what you have written, which specifically does not include Unarmed Strikes. This means that any time they try to actually hit someone without a weapon, they have a -4 to-hit penalty.

3) Your "fix" for fast movement working against Flurry of Blows doesn't actually come up until level 12, and only for Monks who decide to go with one particular style out of four options. This makes the other three effectively non-options, because being able to make a full attack and move in the same round is something every single melee character needs.

4) The thing is that this ability, even at level 20, can be done better with a potion, wand, scroll, or casting of a first level spell. That's not a class feature, that's an insult to the intelligence of players.

5) The ability to buff themselves is not so much a fix as a patch. Making them an outsider makes them immune to many beneficial spells that can only be cast on humanoids. Your patch (assuming "Bodhi" is the ability you mean) can cover over this problem, but the spells don't scale as well as if a teammate had cast them on you.


Your fix is just adding a bunch more abilities without fixing the underlying problem, which is that the Monk's damage and ability to hit enemies consistently falls behind most (if not all) other fighting classes, as well as a few non-fighting classes like Bard, and of course all full spellcasters, manifesters, etc (though nothing will get you past full casting and manifesting). All of their abilities are either near-worthless (Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Kip Up), too limited (Quivering Palm), or just done better by someone else (Slow Fall can be imitated by a feat (Shape Soulmeld: Pegasus Cloak or Airstep Sandals) or equipment (Boots of Feather Falling), but better). The only ability that does not fall into this category and is not actively detrimental are a few that you added, and they're still not good enough to compensate. Browse the forums for a bit, a "why are monks bad" thread comes up every few weeks at least, then work on a fix. If you don't know what's wrong, don't try to fix it.


EDIT: Also, mind typing in a way that i understandable the first time it is read? That is, put periods in the appropriate places and spell words correctly, at least?

Realms of Chaos
2011-11-14, 06:23 PM
Just glanced over it, but here's something:

You didn't fix several major problems:

The Monk, a melee class, having a 3/4 BAB.

I've never really understood this particular problem. While I agree that having flurry hurt moderate BAB even further doesn't work, is seems the people seem to hate the idea of any class that would ever require BAB having less than full BAB. Is medium BAB just a pointless concept? :smallconfused:

I think that I can see what this class is after (using flurry of blows and replacing each hit with a debilitating strike before releasing the payload with a finisher on the next round). With that said...

1) attack action is not a thing in D&D. I don't know what to replace it with but I've never seen that term appear in any rulebooks (at least that I can remember).

2) You say that you see this guy as a skirmisher but I see no ability to help you move and get out several attacks (you claim in point #3 that an ability was missed in your last post but I don't see which one you'd be talking about), which is kind of a problem as this guy needs several hits to use finishers. Edit: only helping out monkeys doesn't really help as everyone else still ends up with this problem.

3) As written, I can eventually use serpent's fang, tiger claw, and dragon tail simultaneously on every "attack action" that I get (thus giving me 3 combat charges whenever I hit anything). This might not be a bad thing but was it intended?

Mulletmanalive
2011-11-14, 06:47 PM
I've never really understood this particular problem. While I agree that having flurry hurt moderate BAB even further doesn't work, is seems the people seem to hate the idea of any class that would ever require BAB having less than full BAB. Is medium BAB just a pointless concept? :smallconfused:
I've never really seen the loss. The main issue with the core monk's ability to hit is the fact that he's not got magic items to increase his rate of hits, leaving aside the debate about optimisation. Well, that and its stat requirements etc etc. The BAB wasn't really an issue though.


1) attack action is not a thing in D&D. I don't know what to replace it with but I've never seen that term appear in any rulebooks (at least that I can remember).
It exists in the first printing of PHB as an artifact; there, it seems to refer to things that take the time required to make an attack as part of a full attack action.

It really wasn't clear. Like how they still use the term Partial Action back in the first print...


2) You say that you see this guy as a skirmisher but I see no ability to help you move and get out several attacks (you claim in point #3 that an ability was missed in your last post but I don't see which one you'd be talking about), which is kind of a problem as this guy needs several hits to use finishers. Edit: only helping out monkeys doesn't really help as everyone else still ends up with this problem.


I know this is a common perception, but i would have thought the key to skirmishing would be the ability to disengage and hopefully prevent the opponent following, rather than being able to deal a lot of hits...

Pouncing never seemed at all "skirmishy" to me...

Kenneth
2011-11-14, 06:48 PM
just want to point out again teh second point here for qwerty


unarmed strike is not a weapon.. its a form of attack. so.. yeah a monk has an absence of unardmed strikes as a weapon prociency becuase its not a weapon...


I will attempt to rectify teh movement vs flurry givng the ability to all monks and make the monkey path just be better at it than other monks.

also chaos you hit the nail

that is what I was aiming for the monk goes WAAA!! TY HA!! and does soem cool martial arts strikes then after spending a round or 2 doing them he unleashes teh build up energy (chi/ki/yin-yang or what have you) and does a cool powerful move the following round

yes in your flurry of blows you can do 3 charge up skills serpent fang cobra strike, and dragon tail and next round proceed to unleash a 3 point monkey fist!

but to clearify an attack action is a single attack so lets say you get a full roudn to clobber on sombody and you have 3 attacks you can hit hit and then on the last attack decide to disarm them

i think this is expalined in the player handbook somewhere but i could be wrong

so for clearity's sake during you flurry fo blows you have the following attacks +8/+8/+8/+3 so you have 4 attack actions each of those can be replaced by a charge up skill or a specail attack such a disarm, trip, or sunder

at what level do you think a monk should be able to move and get his flurry of blows off?

Qwertystop
2011-11-14, 07:50 PM
Actually, Unarmed Strike is a weapon.
Listing on the table of weapons. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#tableWeapons)

Weapon description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#unarmedStrike)


An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.

Kenneth
2011-11-14, 08:27 PM
Unarmed Strike

A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike. A Small character deals 1d2 points of nonlethal damage. A monk or any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat can deal lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, at her option. The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike.


it is considered a light weapon. for purposes for what feats, effects, and such you can apply to it.

again I am of the mindset that an unarmed striek is not a weapon it is a form of attack.

beucase you do go out and arm yourself wiht an unarmed strike, like you woudl say for instance go out an arm yourself with a spear, or swrod, or great axe.

again


the no proficiencey with unarmed strieks is following the same open ended logic that drowning heals and unlimited mount and dismounting of horse leads to so...



ya know what.. never mind this is just going to boil down to me poitning out things to support my side and you poiting out things that support yours, so we are at an impasse but I will put down that a monk knows how to use his flurry of blows so nobody sees gaping holes like that

Qwertystop
2011-11-14, 08:37 PM
By the rules, Unarmed Strike is listed under simple weapons. That's the rules. For all purposes relating to weapon-specific feats and circumstances, it's a weapon. That would include Weapon Proficiency, except that there is no Simple Weapon Proficiency, because the Monk is the only class without proficiency in "all simple weapons". That in itself is a strike against it, as all other classes, even ones that, by fluff, have not trained in any form of fighting at all (like Wizard) have simple weapon proficiency.

Kenneth
2011-11-14, 09:32 PM
there ya go. gave monk proficiency as well as made some of the other stuffs more clear to understand.

Siosilvar
2011-11-14, 09:41 PM
That in itself is a strike against it, as all other classes, even ones that, by fluff, have not trained in any form of fighting at all (like Wizard) have simple weapon proficiency.

Actually, that's not true. Wizard is one of the two other classes without simple weapon proficiency.

The third is Warblade, because they only get melee and throwing weapons.

jiriku
2011-11-14, 09:43 PM
I'm also of the school of thought that it's self-evident that monks are proficient with unarmed strikes. The idea that such was intentionally withheld from the class seems like an overly legalistic interpretation that intentionally disregards RAI.

In general, what a monk needs to succeed:
Some additional source of accuracy. Common fixes include +Wis to hit, upgrading ki strike to an actual enhancement bonus, enchantable fist wraps or gauntlets, and a full base attack bonus. I'd say that any one or two from that list would do the job.
Some means of effectively making multiple attacks on the move. Common fixes include the ability to flurry as a standard action, large Tumble bonuses, and swift-action movement. Generally, any one or two of these should be sufficient.
More versatility. Common fixes include an expanded class skill list, more skill points, appropriately themed psionic powers, a pool of ki points with appropriately themed ki powers, and martial maneuvers. Because this area involves adding new stuff, rather than merely fixing existing stuff, it's more subject to your personal taste.

Specific Suggestions:
Purity of Body should be applicable against magical and supernatural diseases. Those are usually the only ones that even matter.
Wholeness of Body should be monk level x Wis modifier, rather than a flat x3.
Quivering Palm should be usable not less than once per day.

Qwertystop
2011-11-14, 09:46 PM
Actually, that's not true. Wizard is one of the two other classes without simple weapon proficiency.

The third is Warblade, because they only get melee and throwing weapons.

Wow... you're right about the Wizard.

Fine, Sorcerer.

Also,

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: You are proficient with simple and martial melee weapons (including those that can be used as thrown weapons), light and medium armor, and all shields except tower shields.

Yitzi
2011-11-14, 10:04 PM
Also {snip warblade quote}

As he said: They don't get all simple weapons (in particular, they don't get crossbows or slings.)

Kenneth
2011-11-14, 10:10 PM
there Jiriky I amd enlightend fist apply to both attack and damage

and ist nice to see that at least one other person agrees with me about the open ended logic that non 100% specific down to the minutae rules leaves off at, sucha as healing from drowing monks not being preofiect with thei unarmed attacks eve though in the fluff of the monk it says
Monks are highly trained in fighting unarmed giving them considerable advantages while doing so

and qwerty you quoted soemthing that supported Siosilvar point about Warblades not being profiecient with all simple weapons as they are only proficient with melee? was this your point?

and.. i jsut relaized what jiriku meant by quivering palm once a day LOL i thought it was once a day already.. not once a week!

time to go back and fix that!

Qwertystop
2011-11-14, 10:12 PM
As he said: They don't get all simple weapons (in particular, they don't get crossbows or slings.)

Wow... I missed the word Melee...

I am just not doing well today...

Kenneth
2011-11-19, 12:12 AM
K.. now.. what 'tier' would anybody say this was in?

Yitzi
2011-11-19, 08:22 PM
I'd say it's in Tier 2 (broken), but only because as written the level 20 Crane ability means the monk is immune to any attack when fighting defensively.

jiriku
2011-11-20, 01:26 PM
This writeup leaves a lot of questions unanswered. I'd suggest adding some more description to clarify the following:
Flurry of Blows: Does FoB grant 1 charge per hit, or just 1 charge if FoB results in at least 1 hit?
Unarmed Strike: Unarmed strike damage for a monk of 16th-19th level is listed as 1d6. I think you meant 2d6.
Tiger Claw, Serpent's Fang, Dragon Tail: Can these strikes be combined with Flurry of Blows, or with each other?
Dragon Talon: Why does DT inflict a greater effect with 2 charges than with 3? Why is DT with one charge less effective than simply making a regular unarmed strike with Tiger Claw?
Fists of Flame, Claws of Thunder: What kind of action is required to activate these abilities?
Crane Style: How is "redirecting" an attack adjudicated?
Turtle Style: The stacking bonus to AC will be a problem. It is trivial for the monk to make himself impossible to hit with this ability. To balance it, the bonus AC should wear off at the beginning of the monk's next turn.
Monkey Style: What kind of action is used when monk uses the 12th and 15th level abilities?
Phoenix: Is the permanent negative level "permanent until removed by appropriate spells" or "permanent and can never be removed by any means"?
Quick Barrage: What kind of action is required to use Quick Barrage?
Crashing Wave: This needs to offer some sort of saving throw against daze and require an opposed check versus the trip. Otherwise, it's too easy for a monk to daze-lock an opponent.
Unrestraitant Journey: I think the word you want is "unrestrained".

Kenneth
2011-11-20, 01:50 PM
1)
it gives 1 charge if flurry has at least 1 successfult strike during, not one per hit

2) LOL thanks for catching that will fix

3) yea you can substitue an attack roll with any of the maneuers that allow one to gain a charge, so in a flurry fo blows where you attack at +8/+8/+8/+3 you can go tigerclaw/serpetn fang/dragon tail/normal attack

4) how is 1d8+ 10 (max) better than 10d4 damage?

5) ohh.. didn't write that down.. will fix, they are both swift actions

6) *grumbles about WoTC and theri fail at using words with correct definitions* hmm.. well it like this the monk basically gives up hiw whole turn and any attack against him, is instead turn back to the attacker, using the same attack roll to see if the attacker successfully attacked himself. -guess i should put down any melee attack or thrown attack becuase how could he reasonably launch a crossbow bolt back at a guy right?-

7) AHh crap.. i thought i did put a limit on the morale bonuses to AC.. will have to fix that ( unlike WoTC i do not have a team of prooffreaders i have cool people like jiriku, and also.. the paid proofreaders did a poor job LOL)

8) well the 12th level is a alwasy on power, it basically an improved verion of teh 8th level ability all monks get and again teh 15th level one is a standard action

9) permananft untill romved by approtiate spells

10) quick barrage is not an action type abilty.. it an abilityt hat says ' at this point all monks can move up to X feet and still deal a flurry of blows'

11) mm maybe a save versus the daze.. idk when compared to wizards who can at 11th levle get unlimited chain wishes.. does a daze and prone with no save really seem all that powerful?

12) yeah i thought about unrestrained.. but it just does not sound as cool to me as unrestraitant

jiriku
2011-11-20, 03:14 PM
4) how is 1d8+ 10 (max) better than 10d4 damage?

My bad, I read that one wrong. Carry on, then! :smallbiggrin:


6) *grumbles about WoTC and theri fail at using words with correct definitions* hmm.. well it like this the monk basically gives up hiw whole turn and any attack against him, is instead turn back to the attacker, using the same attack roll to see if the attacker successfully attacked himself. -guess i should put down any melee attack or thrown attack becuase how could he reasonably launch a crossbow bolt back at a guy right?

I'd be concerned about this ability then, because if it can be used in an unlimited fashion, then the monk is entirely protected from any creature that relies on melee and thrown attacks to be successful. It also reinforces the mundane/caster imbalance, because casters rarely need weapons to be successful, while mundanes almost always do.


8) well the 12th level is a alwasy on power, it basically an improved verion of teh 8th level ability all monks get and again teh 15th level one is a standard action

10) quick barrage is not an action type abilty.. it an abilityt hat says ' at this point all monks can move up to X feet and still deal a flurry of blows'

This probably needs a little more description, then. Normally, moving is a move action, and using flurry of blows requires a full attack, which is a full-round action. Since the monk can't take that many actions in one turn, you need to break down how that happens. Is the bonus movement a free action? Is it done as part of the full-round action? Or is the flurry of blows now performed as a standard action? Is the whole thing just a move action? It's important to figure out what is done where, so that you know what the monk is capable of when he's subject to action denial effects.


11) mm maybe a save versus the daze.. idk when compared to wizards who can at 11th levle get unlimited chain wishes.. does a daze and prone with no save really seem all that powerful?

While it's true that wizards can do this, doing so breaks the game. It's a good idea to balance your class features against the non-broken capabilities of other classes. Generally speaking, the ability to deny your opponent ~3 turns-worth of actions once every 2 turns with no save, while still striking him 4+ times for considerable damage, is better than what other classes can do at that level. This gets even scarier if a monk optimizes to be able to make multiple AoOs during his opponent's turn, thus allowing him to start every round with some combo points and spam crashing wave every round.


Minor consideration: These class features make heavy use of almost every single die type in the game. Many players won't own enough dice to roll all their damage dice at once, which then entails lots of repeated rolling and adding. This can slow down play. You might look for opportunities to switch to d6's, where possible, since people tend to own more of those.


Final Analysis: You asked what tier this belongs to. I'd call this a strong Tier 4. It's likely to be a whirling dervish of death in combat, but its active features mostly revolve around "I punch it", rendering it vulnerable to being made useless if facing an opponent it can't or shouldn't punch.