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Mark Hall
2011-11-16, 08:41 PM
If Superman were black, who do you think he would resemble. Feel free to provide (clean, safe, and appropriately sized) images to argue your case.

AtlanteanTroll
2011-11-16, 08:45 PM
If Superman were black, who do you think he would resemble. Feel free to provide (clean, safe, and appropriately sized) images to argue your case.

We already know.

http://images.wikia.com/marvel_dc/images/3/39/Superman_Vathlo.JPG

claypigeons
2011-11-16, 09:17 PM
If Superman were black, who do you think he would resemble. Feel free to provide (clean, safe, and appropriately sized) images to argue your case.

Michael Jai White.


Or, alternately, Katt Williams.

Worira
2011-11-16, 10:35 PM
Like this, I guess.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/229/276557-54550-steel_super.jpg

Except without the armour and with more superpowers.

H Birchgrove
2011-11-16, 11:14 PM
Like Muhammed Ali at his prime.

Worira
2011-11-17, 12:55 AM
Like Muhammed Ali at his prime.

http://www.headinjurytheater.com/super%20muhammed%20egotistal%20dillhole.jpg

Feytalist
2011-11-17, 02:12 AM
Like Lawrence Fishburne when he was younger. It's all in the jawline, I think.

Feel free to provide images to argue my case (cause I'm too lazy :smallbiggrin:)

Ichneumon
2011-11-17, 02:23 AM
Morgan Freeman, of course.

Story Time
2011-11-17, 03:59 AM
Thinking about it, Morgan Freeman is an intelligent enough actor to pull that off well. I...don't know about his shoulder size, though.

Killer Angel
2011-11-17, 04:43 AM
Here you are (http://www.cinemablend.com/gallery/previews/Hancock-2864.html?tid=16512). (almost :smalltongue:)

Yuki Akuma
2011-11-17, 04:59 AM
Final Crisis #7 says

http://fullbodytransplant.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/obamadccomics1.jpg?w=500&h=769

This guy.

Worira
2011-11-17, 05:11 AM
No, his hair makes me angry.

H Birchgrove
2011-11-17, 11:20 AM
http://www.headinjurytheater.com/super%20muhammed%20egotistal%20dillhole.jpg

I can only see a red X, and I'm disapoint it doesn't seem to refer to the Superman vs. Muhammed Ali comic book.

Edit: I can see it now, and it does refer to the said comic book. :smallbiggrin: (But why would Mr Ali be a "egotistical dillhole", according to the image link? :smallconfused: )

Thinker
2011-11-17, 11:47 AM
I can only see a red X, and I'm disapoint it doesn't seem to refer to the Superman vs. Muhammed Ali comic book.

Edit: I can see it now, and it does refer to the said comic book. :smallbiggrin: (But why would Mr Ali be a "egotistical dillhole", according to the image link? :smallconfused: )

Because Mr. Ali was arrogant. He wrote a poem about how he was the greatest.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxczlps5_bg

Then there's this quote:
"I'm the most recognized and loved man that ever lived cuz there weren't no satellites when Jesus and Moses were around, so people far away in the villages didn't know about them."

Karoht
2011-11-17, 12:25 PM
I think he would look like the Old Spice Guy.
You know the one. Ladies.
But Superman on a horse just doesn't work for me.

Eurus
2011-11-17, 12:29 PM
I think he would look like the Old Spice Guy.
You know the one. Ladies.
But Superman on a horse just doesn't work for me.

It would make flying complicated. Perhaps if he carried it with his super-thighs...

Karoht
2011-11-17, 12:42 PM
His "Swan Dive into the Best Night of Your Life" would be epic.

AtlanteanTroll
2011-11-17, 03:38 PM
Morgan Freeman, of course.

No, that's what he would sound like. :smalltongue:

H Birchgrove
2011-11-17, 03:46 PM
Because Mr. Ali was arrogant. He wrote a poem about how he was the greatest.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxczlps5_bg

Then there's this quote:
"I'm the most recognized and loved man that ever lived cuz there weren't no satellites when Jesus and Moses were around, so people far away in the villages didn't know about them."

Damn. :smalleek:

I wonder why that wasn't in the biopic movie... :smallsigh:

Capt. Ido Nos
2011-11-17, 04:14 PM
Morgan Freeman, of course.

Morgan Freeman's voice, actually.

TheSummoner
2011-11-17, 05:30 PM
Nah, Morgan Freeman might be awesome, but it has to be the Old Spice Guy.

"Hello criminals. Stop. Look down. Look back up. Your guns are now diamonds. Look at your partners in crime. Back to me. Where are you now? You're in a prison cell, the ultimate result of a life of crime. Look at the prison bars. Back to me. It's not too late. Give up your criminal ways and reform. Anything is possible when you life an honest life!"

KillianHawkeye
2011-11-17, 05:47 PM
Nah, Morgan Freeman might be awesome, but it has to be the Old Spice Guy.

"Hello criminals. Stop. Look down. Look back up. Your guns are now diamonds. Look at your partners in crime. Back to me. Where are you now? You're in a prison cell, the ultimate result of a life of crime. Look at the prison bars. Back to me. It's not too late. Give up your criminal ways and reform. Anything is possible when you life an honest life!"

You win! :smallamused:

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-17, 05:49 PM
Nah, Morgan Freeman might be awesome, but it has to be the Old Spice Guy.

"Hello criminals. Stop. Look down. Look back up. Your guns are now diamonds. Look at your partners in crime. Back to me. Where are you now? You're in a prison cell, the ultimate result of a life of crime. Look at the prison bars. Back to me. It's not too late. Give up your criminal ways and reform. Anything is possible when you life an honest life!"

Would it be considered against the politics ban to comment this is much better then the President's Final Crisis Expy?

Because it totally is.

dehro
2011-11-18, 02:57 AM
+1 on the old spice man

because he would be awesome even in his secret identity (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRFHoIeoqDg#)

molten_dragon
2011-11-18, 06:28 AM
No, that's what he would sound like. :smalltongue:

No, he would sound like James Earl Jones.

dehro
2011-11-18, 07:15 AM
No, he would sound like James Earl Jones.

nope..that would be jor-el

H Birchgrove
2011-11-18, 08:45 AM
Nah, Morgan Freeman might be awesome, but it has to be the Old Spice Guy.

"Hello criminals. Stop. Look down. Look back up. Your guns are now diamonds. Look at your partners in crime. Back to me. Where are you now? You're in a prison cell, the ultimate result of a life of crime. Look at the prison bars. Back to me. It's not too late. Give up your criminal ways and reform. Anything is possible when you life an honest life!"

Huge images of awesomeness:

http://bbsimg.ngfiles.com/1/22486000/ngbbs4d622ff32b401.jpg

http://kiserai.net/gallery/d/269-1/awesome.jpg

Ravens_cry
2011-11-18, 08:55 PM
Nah, Morgan Freeman might be awesome, but it has to be the Old Spice Guy.

"Hello criminals. Stop. Look down. Look back up. Your guns are now diamonds. Look at your partners in crime. Back to me. Where are you now? You're in a prison cell, the ultimate result of a life of crime. Look at the prison bars. Back to me. It's not too late. Give up your criminal ways and reform. Anything is possible when you life an honest life!"
Unless they were moulded from carbon fibre, why would the guns be diamonds?

Mutant Sheep
2011-11-18, 09:01 PM
I'm gonna go with Mal Duncan's (Young Justice version) Superman. Because it was awesome. :smallbiggrin: /will post pic once it winds up somewhere on this "interweb" he's heard so much about. :P
I like Steel as Steel, but he does make a good Superman. :smalltongue:

KillianHawkeye
2011-11-18, 09:16 PM
I like Steel as Steel, but he does make a good Superman. :smalltongue:

Isn't that how he started out during the Death of Superman storyline?

TheSummoner
2011-11-18, 09:28 PM
Unless they were moulded from carbon fibre, why would the guns be diamonds?

Because that's the Old Spice Guy's power.

Superman is strong and can fly and stuff. Spiderman has spider sense and can shoot webs. Old Spice Guy can ride on a horse backwards and turn anything into diamonds.

irenicObserver
2011-11-19, 09:55 AM
I can't imagine Black Superman keeping Superman's trademark curl, maybe waves instead.

Fun fact, Krypton had an entire continent of black people, who refused to get involved in the world for whatever reason (probably to explain why we've never heard of them before).

Ravens_cry
2011-11-19, 12:05 PM
Because that's the Old Spice Guy's power.

Superman is strong and can fly and stuff. Spiderman has spider sense and can shoot webs. Old Spice Guy can ride on a horse backwards and turn anything into diamonds.
Yes, but if he is playing Superman, he cannot use his Old Spice Guy powers.

TheSummoner
2011-11-19, 12:22 PM
Of course he can. He just gains the Superman powers as well.

Ravens_cry
2011-11-19, 02:14 PM
Of course he can. He just gains the Superman powers as well.
Acting doesn't work that way.
**
Joking aside, Superman, even as Superman, is best portrayed in a humble, human kind of way, in my opinion. Like Captain America, he is, at his best, a mixture of humility and strength, his greatest fear is not being hurt but hurting someone else.
This can be be over done to a gosh shucks kind of naivety, but I think having the Man of Steel have a very human heart is a much more enjoyable experience than a "What ho, citizen!" silver age stereotype that would be projected by Isaiah Mustafa as Old Spice Guy playing Superman.

Arcane_Secrets
2011-11-19, 05:12 PM
Like Lawrence Fishburne when he was younger. It's all in the jawline, I think.

Feel free to provide images to argue my case (cause I'm too lazy :smallbiggrin:)

I think he's got a little too much thickness for it. I'm thinking more Samuel L. Jackson instead.

Ravens_cry
2011-11-19, 05:45 PM
How about Denzel Washington? Soft spoken, handsome, you would probably have to bulk him up a bit, but he might work.

Traab
2011-11-19, 06:09 PM
I think he's got a little too much thickness for it. I'm thinking more Samuel L. Jackson instead.

/Justice League meeting is wrapping up

Superman :"Hey Flash, hand me my cape!"
Flash: /looks at the pile of capes "Uh, which one is yours again?"
Superman: "Its the one that says bad mutha%$#%^ on it!"

Ravens_cry
2011-11-19, 06:44 PM
Has Superman ever swore on that level?
Also, what happens at the Marvel/DC crossover when he meets Nick Fury?

Arcane_Secrets
2011-11-19, 09:49 PM
/Justice League meeting is wrapping up

Superman :"Hey Flash, hand me my cape!"
Flash: /looks at the pile of capes "Uh, which one is yours again?"
Superman: "Its the one that says bad mutha%$#%^ on it!"

I can't really decide whether that's an argument for or against this. :)

dehro
2011-11-19, 10:03 PM
this does remind me of frozone, from the incredibles... which incidentally was voiced by Samuel L. Jackson.

honey...where's my super suit???

Feytalist
2011-11-21, 03:33 AM
this does remind me of frozone, from the incredibles... which incidentally was voiced by Samuel L. Jackson.

honey...where's my super suit???

I actually just saw that movie again last night, heh.


I think he's got a little too much thickness for it. I'm thinking more Samuel L. Jackson instead.

That's why I said when he was younger. Did you see him in Othello? Not quite as bulky as he was in the Matrix, say. He's also got the necessary amount of gravitas for the role, I think.

But Denzel Washington is too soft-spoken, I think. Superman needs a bit of "Halt, Evildoer"-type presence as well.

Ravens_cry
2011-11-21, 09:29 AM
Maybe, a lot of my idea of Superman has been informed from Justice League Unlimited and Christopher Reeves, both of whom had fairly soft spoken persona.

Karoht
2011-11-21, 10:41 AM
Yes, but if he is playing Superman, he cannot use his Old Spice Guy powers.True. However, whe could use his Superman powers to achieve similar effects. In fact, pretty much everything the Old Spice Guy does could be achieved with nothing but super speed.

I could totally see Superman using his speed to take the leader of a gang robbing a bank, all the way to jail, showing him the inside of a cell, asking if that's really what the guy wants, and having him back at the bank, all in the same time it would take to make that Old Spice Guy styled monologue. And Superman has done similar things in the past, where he has impressed upon people the direction that their poor choices will take them, and offers them help.

Ravens_cry
2011-11-21, 10:54 AM
And super strength to turn some carbon into diamonds and then switch the diamonds with the guns, all without killing them with the shock-wave from moving that fast within an atmosphere.

Karoht
2011-11-21, 11:45 AM
And super strength to turn some carbon into diamonds and then switch the diamonds with the guns, all without killing them with the shock-wave from moving that fast within an atmosphere.The laws of physics (shock wave from super speed) have never slowed down superman or the flash, I don't see why it would now. But indeed.

See? Old Spice Guy = really awesome Superman.

Ravens_cry
2011-11-21, 01:21 PM
The laws of physics (shock wave from super speed) have never slowed down superman or the flash, I don't see why it would now. But indeed.

See? Old Spice Guy = really awesome Superman.
The Flash has explicit secondary powers (Speed Force) that prevent such, while Supermans super-speed is more a function of his super strength and invulnerability if I remember correctly.. Of course, the "shock wave from super speed" was meant as a joke to be honest, though it could be an interesting issue to explore.

Traab
2011-11-21, 02:47 PM
The Flash has explicit secondary powers (Speed Force) that prevent such, while Supermans super-speed is more a function of his super strength and invulnerability if I remember correctly.. Of course, the "shock wave from super speed" was meant as a joke to be honest, though it could be an interesting issue to explore.

I think it would be an awesome reboot idea to make supermans speed function according to real world physics. He may be fine due to invulnerability, but every time he goes into super speed, he is tearing through pavement, shattering windows, the wake of his passage is causing effects similar to the end of the second matrix film as he tries to save trinity, etc etc etc. He would be one of the most hated "super heroes" ever simply for the massive collateral damage he causes simply by doing his thing.

After all, its exactly like you said, the flash has his hand wave explanation for why he doesnt ignite into flame from friction or cause property damage that he doesnt intend to, superman has never really had an excuse. How would this superman act if he has to be very VERY careful how fast he travels and where, and has to deal with the aftereffects for when he actually has to be "faster than a speeding bullet"

Worira
2011-11-21, 04:56 PM
In at least some writers' work, he does. He goes out of his way not to move at supersonic speeds near things that can be damaged unless he absolutely has to, and flies up to a safe height before travelling long distances otherwise.

Traab
2011-11-21, 05:52 PM
In at least some writers' work, he does. He goes out of his way not to move at supersonic speeds near things that can be damaged unless he absolutely has to, and flies up to a safe height before travelling long distances otherwise.

Till he has to, like in that world of cardboard youtube clip of him beating the HELL out of darkseid? Damn, and here I was thinking that could be an interesting twist. Maybe if they exaggerated the effects a bit. I just thought that would make for a really cool change that might have an actual impact on superman as a character.

For example, he might be even more hesitant than usual to unleash his strength in a fight, and he has to constantly juggle between ending the fight fast with his powers causing collateral damage, or holding back but the fight takes longer, putting people at risk and possibly causing other forms of collateral damage. Put a JJ Jameson type reporter at the daily planet who hates supermans guts and you have an interesting no win pr situation where no matter what he chooses, he reads an article in the paper complaining about it and how he is a menace.

Ravens_cry
2011-11-21, 06:20 PM
Eh, Superman already is careful enough with his powers. Adding a Spiderman-esque "Superman is a menace!" twist might be overdoing it.

Devonix
2011-11-21, 10:40 PM
Till he has to, like in that world of cardboard youtube clip of him beating the HELL out of darkseid? Damn, and here I was thinking that could be an interesting twist. Maybe if they exaggerated the effects a bit. I just thought that would make for a really cool change that might have an actual impact on superman as a character.

For example, he might be even more hesitant than usual to unleash his strength in a fight, and he has to constantly juggle between ending the fight fast with his powers causing collateral damage, or holding back but the fight takes longer, putting people at risk and possibly causing other forms of collateral damage. Put a JJ Jameson type reporter at the daily planet who hates supermans guts and you have an interesting no win pr situation where no matter what he chooses, he reads an article in the paper complaining about it and how he is a menace.


This is not SOME in nearly every fight that happens in a populated area Superman limits his speed and strength so that he does not utterly destroy the surrounding area. Its been commented on multiple times in issues and whenever he does let loose it gets DBZ levels of Bad for the environment, to the point of him punching someone and buildings shaking for miles around from the impact. Glass Shattering from sonic waves ECT. Superman is incapable of traveling at top speed while on Earth because he sets fire to the atmosphere and would kill all life on the planet, he only does so when in space.

Traab
2011-11-22, 09:14 AM
This is not SOME in nearly every fight that happens in a populated area Superman limits his speed and strength so that he does not utterly destroy the surrounding area. Its been commented on multiple times in issues and whenever he does let loose it gets DBZ levels of Bad for the environment, to the point of him punching someone and buildings shaking for miles around from the impact. Glass Shattering from sonic waves ECT. Superman is incapable of traveling at top speed while on Earth because he sets fire to the atmosphere and would kill all life on the planet, he only does so when in space.

Are you sure you arent just quoting references from the era where superman is flying across the galaxy 5 million times faster than the speed of light, using planets to hit bad guys with, and punching so hard he breaks reality?

Karoht
2011-11-22, 10:16 AM
Are you sure you arent just quoting references from the era where superman is flying across the galaxy 5 million times faster than the speed of light, using planets to hit bad guys with, and punching so hard he breaks reality?

I forget the source, but at one point while fighting some supervillian (I think this was during Death and Return but don't quote me on that) he complains about how he's been living in a fragile "cardboard universe" and fighting this particular villain was refreshing because he could finally stretch his muscles and use his full potential for a change.


@Superman is a menace
Worked for Spiderman and J Jonah Jameson.
^ Not a serious arguement.

Ravens_cry
2011-11-22, 10:17 AM
Are you sure you arent just quoting references from the era where superman is flying across the galaxy 5 million times faster than the speed of light, using planets to hit bad guys with, and punching so hard he breaks reality?
I am pretty sure only Superboy Prime did the latter, though some of Supermans Silver Age stunts were equally out there. But even at fairly 'low' power levels, it could be highly destructive if he didn't take care.
For example, travelling at orbital speed within the atmosphere would be devastating for anything within a certain distance. Ever watch video of space shuttle or Soyuz re-entry? That's when the air in the rarefied upper atmosphere can't get out of the way fast enough, piling up and compressing and heating, heating up to thousands of degrees. Now imagine what would happen at breathable air pressures, where the air is hundreds of times denser.

Traab
2011-11-22, 10:34 AM
I forget the source, but at one point while fighting some supervillian (I think this was during Death and Return but don't quote me on that) he complains about how he's been living in a fragile "cardboard universe" and fighting this particular villain was refreshing because he could finally stretch his muscles and use his full potential for a change.


@Superman is a menace
Worked for Spiderman and J Jonah Jameson.
^ Not a serious arguement.

It was against darkseid. Go to youtube and type in superman, world of cardboard. You get to watch superman punch darkseid so hard it craters the earth from the shockwave. Among other things that causes lots of collateral damage. Like hitting him so hard darkseid flies through three skyscrapers and is still not slowing down until he gets the double axehandle smash into the ground, creating yet another massive crater.

And yeah Ravens, I know it was superboy prime who did a chuck norris and broke reality with his fist, I was just making my point asking if the talk about igniting the atmosphere by going too fast was from that time frame or some other, more reasonable one. As for what it could do, I dunno, it honestly depends on a few factors. For instance, how long does the air stay hot after the shuttle passes by? How big of an area would get flash fried by a human sized and shaped object dashing through at those speeds? Or one that is in full on superman flight shape, a fairly aerodynamic way of flying? (Id imagine the lowered air resistance would shrink the danger zone even further)

So long as he doesnt RUN that fast, and sticks to flying above the tops of buildings, aside from the constant sonic boom as he goes, it may or may not cause any problems at all. But running that fast would likely melt the roads, set fire to anything within a certain radius, and cause untold death and destruction no matter how careful he tries to be about it.

Ravens_cry
2011-11-22, 10:48 AM
The shuttle doesn't do it in the lower atmosphere. Superman would be. Also, his flight pose would be better thanm say, belly flopping, but a human body is still terribly not aerodynamic at those speeds.
This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1ix62_oBGtg#t=98s) is what happens at Mach 7 with a small, highly aerodynamic projectile. All that flame isn't from anything burning, but speed meets atmosphere.
Imagine something the shape, size and mass of a muscular human, at Mach 25.
And, by superhero superspeed standards, that's slow.

Karoht
2011-11-22, 11:02 AM
The earth is protected by his and every other super heroes "It's a comic book" field of reality warping. It's a standard power so standard it just never makes it onto the character sheet.

Ravens_cry
2011-11-22, 11:36 AM
The earth is protected by his and every other super heroes "It's a comic book" field of reality warping. It's a standard power so standard it just never makes it onto the character sheet.
That depends on the writer. Some writers, and audiences like looking at the implications of various abilities and using them for an added twist.
Like when The Flash beat Death by going so fast time dilation meant he went so far into the future life no longer existed and so Death didn't either.
One could argue that he still existed, so wherever he existed so would life, and therefore Death, but I'll give them an 'A' for effort.
Try reading the TV Tropes page on Required Secondary Powers, it really goes in depth on this, and, I for one , find it fascinating.

Tiki Snakes
2011-11-22, 11:41 AM
Given that almost any vs discussion involving Superman includes the claim and counter claim that he could easily win by doing X via superspeed and that he never does in the comics, applying a little more reality to the situation could provide a nice explanation of exactly why he never seems to really use Superspeed to it's logical limits.

But it'll never happen in any meaningful or consistent way.

Karoht
2011-11-22, 11:45 AM
That depends on the writer. Some writers, and audiences like looking at the implications of various abilities and using them for an added twist.
Like when The Flash beat Death by going so fast time dilation meant he went so far into the future life no longer existed and so Death didn't either.
One could argue that he still existed, so wherever he existed so would life, and therefore Death, but I'll give them an 'A' for effort.
Try reading the TV Tropes page on Required Secondary Powers, it really goes in depth on this, and, I for one , find it fascinating.
I for one rather enjoy realistic superheroes, which is why I always enjoyed the less powerful heroes such as Spiderman or Iron Fist or Wolverine, and now Captain America is added to that list, commonly known as the Superhuman level list. Iron Man being on the upper end of that list, with Thor then going into the Supernatural level of power, same with Hulk.

So when we get into Supernatural levels of power, I usually just turn off the rational part of my brain immediately. As such, logic/reality as we know starts to not apply to certain areas of a character and extending in parts to the world around them.

Ravens_cry
2011-11-22, 11:50 AM
Eh, Wolverine, realistic?
Mr. "Regenerate from a single cell/molecule/atom"?
Oh, I don't demand it all the time, but exploring implications is something I like explored now and then, like an extended form of lampshading.
"Yes, we are aware of the issues and we are not just lazy writers who slap on superpowers willy nilly."

Tiki Snakes
2011-11-22, 11:55 AM
Wolverine has his wtf moments, but they aren't really intrinsic to the character's day to day adventures. Other than the occaisional regeneration based Wallbanger, I'd be willing to believe his stuff usually is relatively realistic in superhero terms.

Ravens_cry
2011-11-22, 12:06 PM
Wolverine has his wtf moments, but they aren't really intrinsic to the character's day to day adventures. Other than the occaisional regeneration based Wallbanger, I'd be willing to believe his stuff usually is relatively realistic in superhero terms.

True enough, though how useful having unbreakable bones is if your ligaments and tendons are not is debatable, he was fairly high on the plausibility tier aside from the aforementioned Wallbangers.
My biggest issue with recent Wolverine that I have read is not his powers but that he's a jerk.
Not a jerk with a heart of gold kind of jerk, but a full on raging <expletive redacted/>.
Still, damn he makes sideburns that a tiger would envy look sexy.

Karoht
2011-11-22, 12:34 PM
Eh, Wolverine, realistic?
Mr. "Regenerate from a single cell/molecule/atom"?
Oh, I don't demand it all the time, but exploring implications is something I like explored now and then, like an extended form of lampshading.
"Yes, we are aware of the issues and we are not just lazy writers who slap on superpowers willy nilly."From single atom, yes, that is the writers being twits and taking things to absurdity. The same thing happened with pre-crisis Superman all the time as the writers ran out of ideas and eventually pushed the envelope rather than working with a well defined set of limits. It allowed them to continue selling comic books, so they didn't much care for the implications.

But being able to explain that he's physically stronger than average because
his regen takes care of pesky fatigue chemicals (meaning he can push his existing muscles farther than normal, effectively giving him extra strength) as well as his heavier bone structure can support more muscle mass, and because he rapidly regenerates, it means he can tear fibers and repair them quickly, which is how you build muscle mass and maintain it is the kind 'realism-ish' stuff I enjoy.

His skeleton is bio-adamantium, meaning the skeleton can regenerate as well, and adamantium is pretty tough stuff, so Wolverine surviving a swim in a volcano or a nuclear blast? I kind of buy that. The existance of adamantium though... it gets into a different discussion altogether, as it's origins are actually related to some of the marvel myth-arc of vibranium. And this is where I begin to dislike the lack of realism, which any discussion of vibranium/adamantium will slowly descend into.

Tiki's comment sums it up well.
As does the sideburns remark.

As for wolverine = explative level jerk, is that from Old Man wolverine or modern Xmen stuff? I haven't followed the comics in ages.

Ravens_cry
2011-11-22, 12:42 PM
The trouble is his brain, you know where we live.
It would be cooked, well done, and unless his body periodically backs up his mind in DNA and stores it in his bone marrow or something, ever time he came back from such making such an ash out of himself he'd be a completely different person, with no memories or personality from the previous existence.

Traab
2011-11-22, 01:26 PM
The trouble is his brain, you know where we live.
It would be cooked, well done, and unless his body periodically backs up his mind in DNA and stores it in his bone marrow or something, ever time he came back from such making such an ash out of himself he'd be a completely different person, with no memories or personality from the previous existence.

Yeah thats honestly the biggest potential gap. However, I think the difference between one of US regrowing a brain and wolverine is that regeneration works differently from healing. I mean, unless wolverine grows back shiny pink skin every time he gets injured, he basically grows back to his old standard. Tanned, hairy, and probably already stinks of cigar smoke. His brain is the same way, it grows back exactly how it was. Same neural connections, same pathways established, etc. Its bunk, but its the best handwave available because you have no proof that it wouldnt work that way, since there are no sentient beings im aware of that can regenerate much of anything, let alone their brains.

Karoht
2011-11-22, 02:09 PM
The trouble is his brain, you know where we live.
It would be cooked, well done, and unless his body periodically backs up his mind in DNA and stores it in his bone marrow or something, ever time he came back from such making such an ash out of himself he'd be a completely different person, with no memories or personality from the previous existence.
His brain is protected by his adamantium skull. Though in the case of heat, we don't know much about Adamantium's conductivity of either electricity or heat, so we could just assume that he would suffer brain damage. He's suffered brain damage before, and his healing was attributed to some of his amnesia regarding his past if memory serves me correctly. The amnesia would indicate that the regeneration is in fact not always perfect.

But for him to be completely atomized and regenerated from something like his baby toe? Yeah, no memory, I agree.

Also, he must eat a freaking schoolbus full of food every day to replace that much body mass, constantly, even if we assume optimal efficiency of recycling of damaged tissue. I bet he could put a chinese food buffet out of business after a long hard fight.


Either way, in a standard day (where he doesn't get barbequed to a crisp and just gets shot or beat up a lot) he's still a plausible super hero. Iron Man is still a plausible super hero mostly if you handwave his power source. Spiderman is still a plausible super hero mostly if you handwave his new biological webshooters vs his carefully constructed and surprisingly complicated but well though out mechanical webshooters.

And the low power super heroes tend to be the ones still grounded in physics/biology where concerns like the effects of flying even at mach 1+ in a city (You people on the side walk? Kiss your hearing goodbye when superman flies overhead faster than the speed of sound) aren't really a factor.

Worira
2011-11-22, 02:53 PM
That depends on the writer. Some writers, and audiences like looking at the implications of various abilities and using them for an added twist.
Like when The Flash beat Death by going so fast time dilation meant he went so far into the future life no longer existed and so Death didn't either.
One could argue that he still existed, so wherever he existed so would life, and therefore Death, but I'll give them an 'A' for effort.
Try reading the TV Tropes page on Required Secondary Powers, it really goes in depth on this, and, I for one , find it fascinating.

But... speed dilation doesn't affect The Flash...

And yes, basically every Superman writer ever doesn't have Superman use his superspeed to its fullest potential, since it's just such an absurdly overpowered insta-win button against anything that doesn't move at similar speeds.

Also, setting fire to the atmosphere and killing all life on earth? Really?

Ravens_cry
2011-11-22, 03:04 PM
But... speed dilation doesn't affect The Flash...

Old story, probably ret-coned now.


And yes, basically every Superman writer ever doesn't have Superman use his superspeed to its fullest potential, since it's just such an absurdly overpowered insta-win button against anything that doesn't move at similar speeds.

Also, setting fire to the atmosphere and killing all life on earth? Really?
Depending on how fast he goes? Once we get to speeds where interstellar flight becomes an option for the really, really board, yes.

Devonix
2011-11-22, 03:54 PM
I am pretty sure only Superboy Prime did the latter, though some of Supermans Silver Age stunts were equally out there. But even at fairly 'low' power levels, it could be highly destructive if he didn't take care.
For example, travelling at orbital speed within the atmosphere would be devastating for anything within a certain distance. Ever watch video of space shuttle or Soyuz re-entry? That's when the air in the rarefied upper atmosphere can't get out of the way fast enough, piling up and compressing and heating, heating up to thousands of degrees. Now imagine what would happen at breathable air pressures, where the air is hundreds of times denser.

Actually the punching reality thing had nothing to do with strength, well a little It was because of location. There were in a place where time and reality was given literal form and by damaging that form you changed reality. Anyone could have done it if they were there.

And as for the speed thing Him flying at multiples of lightspeed isn't something from Silver age. His current modern speed is many times faster than lightspeed. He's gone from the Earth to Pluto in under 4 mins not even pushing himself.

He all ways leaves orbit before going to FTL travel.

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-22, 11:20 PM
Actually the punching reality thing had nothing to do with strength, well a little It was because of location. There were in a place where time and reality was given literal form and by damaging that form you changed reality. Anyone could have done it if they were there.

And as for the speed thing Him flying at multiples of lightspeed isn't something from Silver age. His current modern speed is many times faster than lightspeed. He's gone from the Earth to Pluto in under 4 mins not even pushing himself.

He all ways leaves orbit before going to FTL travel.

Unless Supes explicitly mentions breaking lightspeed then however he traveled he in fact did not go faster then light and the writers are just too lazy to research how soon you can get where. This happens a lot because comics writers have no sense of scale or physics.

I know there's a semi-famous incident where a Flash story contradict itself having Flash empty a city before a nuke goes off running "just under" lightspeed (he says it) but could not have actually accomplished the task at that speed. Why, because comic writers care more about a scene then the physics of it.

Otherwise heroes wouldn't be able to catch falling persons or lift much or pretty much anything we associate with superheroism thanks to writers of the past being even dumber about physics then the present ones.

Devonix
2011-11-23, 12:57 AM
Unless Supes explicitly mentions breaking lightspeed then however he traveled he in fact did not go faster then light and the writers are just too lazy to research how soon you can get where. This happens a lot because comics writers have no sense of scale or physics.

I know there's a semi-famous incident where a Flash story contradict itself having Flash empty a city before a nuke goes off running "just under" lightspeed (he says it) but could not have actually accomplished the task at that speed. Why, because comic writers care more about a scene then the physics of it.

Otherwise heroes wouldn't be able to catch falling persons or lift much or pretty much anything we associate with superheroism thanks to writers of the past being even dumber about physics then the present ones.

And just who would he be telling, he's alone when he's doing it. Superman flies at FTL many times. He's flown from Earth to the debris field of Krypton something many star systems away. The simple fact that he can travel interstellar distances under his own power makes him many multiples faster than lightspeed. Though this is still slower than the Flash.

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-23, 02:19 AM
And just who would he be telling, he's alone when he's doing it. Superman flies at FTL many times. He's flown from Earth to the debris field of Krypton something many star systems away. The simple fact that he can travel interstellar distances under his own power makes him many multiples faster than lightspeed. Though this is still slower than the Flash.

Internal dialogue, narrator boxes, a comment from another character with him, mentioning it on arrival to wherever he going. All common ways to explain something going on, used all the time in comic. I'm not talking about a particular incident but all of them. Its every time.

And its not like Superman is a space based character. He does not casually jet around the universe. I can only recall a single story in nearly a decade of reading comics that required him to leave Earth's solar system thanks to the Sinestro Corps, Blackest Night, and Final Crisis coming to him. Mind you I haven't read every single appearance but the only major case I recall is Infinite Crisis which you allude to.

A story in which he performs this with numerous Green Lanterns around, with a setup to be recieved by GL Mogo, all of whom have explicit FTL and have been depicted using hyperspace on occasion to show how they do it. Furthermore Infinite Crisis which featured infinite planets on the skies around Earth and lampshaded how impossible that was. And mind bogglingly has Supes, Superman of Earth 2, and Superboy Prime flying through red giant Rao and somehow surviving despite that being the second most classic weakness of Kryptonians. Clearly not the best case for a story that runs on Deus Ex Machina and an editorial need to depower Superman for a year.

Nevermind that Supes needs infinite energy and infinite time to accelerate or has to manifest an entirely different and undescribed superpower to travel that fast. Something that the Flashes have in the Speed Force and use to pull all their crap, like when Wally West used relativity to increase his mass and punch out a White Martian. While noting that guys like Martians and Superman are just really fast, thus don't benefit from reality bend powers of the Flashes speed. Heck when Superman could travel faster then light in the Silver Age it was how he traveled time to hang out with the Legion, actually more plausible then not being able to time travel but still jetting around the universe.

There's a problem with fiction and its not just Supes though comics are particularly bad. Namely that every fictional character unless noted otherwise only as strong or weak, fast or slow, as needed to fit the story. And the writer never does the math to figure out if its possible or not. Like everytime a slasher move villain is right behind someone then suddenly come from the other direction. For comics unless we get some kind of corroboration then "inferred by events" isn't sufficient to say that it should be taken as a statement on the canon state of affairs.

(And gods only know what havoc the DC reboot will cause)

Devonix
2011-11-23, 08:14 AM
Flight: Under one Earth gravity Superman is capable of flying at faster than light speeds. He tends to fly at speeds of Mach 10 in the atmosphere. His control of his flight is perfect and he can perform aerobatic feats such as hovering, flying backwards and even lifting great weights while flying. Superman can fly at speeds many times faster than light.[336].Superman has the ability to fly in outer space. He has been seen to fly to the moon in minutes so we can assume that he can fly faster than that outside of atmospheric interference.

Superhuman Speed: Superman is capable of enhanced reflex action and the ability to move at incredible speeds by sheer force of will. While not nearly as fast as the Flash (Wally West), Superman can move at speeds much faster than light and is one of the fastest beings in the Universe. Superman can match most other speedsters in their ability to perform super fast movements, reactions, and processes. He can use this power to disarm opponents with or without heightened reflexes, catch bullets or shrapnel or cross vast distances in seconds. Superman can also run at incredible speeds and even keep up with most speedsters; he was seen running steadily alongside the flash at a speed of 2000 miles per second (mach 9350) [337]He has been seen flying from the Moon to the Earth in less than 2 minutes. Superman is so fast that he is even able to vibrate through blows akin to what the Flash can do as seen in his fight with Doomsday.


From the DC Wiki page


And since there was never anything shown to imply that the Green Lanterns helped wuth a wormhole I mean you would expect something like that to be drawn. There is no evidence stating that one was used.

Devonix
2011-11-23, 08:44 AM
http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/preview.php?image=previews/dccomics/superman217/page07.jpg

Lois explicitly saying that he slows down when on earth

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/preview.php?image=previews/dccomics/superman217/page09.jpg

Having enough time to catch the bullet as well as cotton up lois and Jimmy's ears to help protect them from the concussive force before it arrives.

pam
2011-11-23, 02:10 PM
I'm just going to leave this here...

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/31566/1833356-love_syndicate_1_large.jpg

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-23, 02:56 PM
*snipped*

Checked the source on the citation. That wiki has outright errors like Supes ripping of Darkseid's arm in a story that that didn't happen and still wants to consider stuff as far back as Bryne's reboot still applies. However here the source holds up and there is independent confirmation and a total stupid abusing of relativity so I could quibble about the idiocy of it or whether this incident demonstrated it... but yep was back in canon.

God only knows what the reboot will mean.

Devonix
2011-11-24, 03:32 PM
I never understand some people's thoughts on certain Characters.

There are people who say that Superman is Booring because he's too powerful and in the same breath say that another character is better because they are more powerful


People fully accept one characters handwaving of their abilities and completely ignore the handwaving of anothers.
Why?

Karoht
2011-11-24, 04:10 PM
I never understand some people's thoughts on certain Characters.

There are people who say that Superman is Booring because he's too powerful and in the same breath say that another character is better because they are more powerful


People fully accept one characters handwaving of their abilities and completely ignore the handwaving of anothers.
Why?

I disagree with the handwaving based entirely on power level. But I also dislike Superman for a similar reason.

Lower power heroes are easier to challenge. Higher power heroes can have bigger badder more epic fights but ultimately the sense of scale tends to get lost in order to challenge them.

Superman was boring to me because there just aren't any threats to him. Kryptonite weapon XYZ almost always fails after a few moments of briefly weakening superman, and then he turns around and saves the day.
The fight against the Kryptonians in the middle of Metropolis made no sense to me in Superman 2 because all I could think of was "hey, aren't they invincible? Is superman even hurting them? Are they hurting him at all?"
No credible threat implies a lack of challenge. So rather than a hero like Spiderman who usually fights villians stronger than him and has to pull out his entire bag of tricks to stay competative, Superman merely has to remember that he has superpowers other than lawful stupid, and saves the day.

That all being said, more modern writers of superman are getting better, and they are finding better ways to challenge him. Some of which are irrelevant to his super powers, some involve use of his powers but in a very specific application, some let him just cut loose and be awesome for a few minutes like the fight against Doomsday.

There is also the fact that challenging weaker superheroes makes them more human, closer to us, easier to relate to. As a kid I always related to spiderman more because he had real life problems that could trip him up. Superman honestly had little to no need of the Clark Kent identity, and real life just wasn't that big an issue for Superman most of the time. Meanwhile look what happened when Peter Parker was revealed to be spiderman? That was a massive upset. Look at the personal identity issues that the Clone Saga brought on, for both Peter Parker and Ben Reilly.

Then there's the guys in the middle. Lets take someone on a power level equal to Thor. He's got a lot of power. He doesn't have mortal issues, he has problems that are mostly unique to him and his people. He's still easier to challenge than superman, but harder to challenge than spiderman, and yet he has whole new challenges that spiderman will likely not end up contending with.

I'm not saying that power is porportional or inversely proportional to interest, but the higher power heroes tend to have a harder time being challenged in a way that the reader might find interesting or relatable, where the lower powered heroes are easier to challenge, the sense of scale stays more within the realm of (some) realism and the whole thing is just easier to relate to and connect with.

At least, that's my opinion.

Traab
2011-11-24, 04:19 PM
Supermans main weakness is that krypton exploded entirely in the direction of earth. They sell kryptonite on street corners. Honestly, the entire premise of kryptonite is absurd. You are telling me that a planet, god only knows how many light years away, exploded, and enough debris, (somehow travelling well past the speed of light
Superman's home planet, Krypton, orbited a red giant star called Rao, about 50 light-years from the Earth.) managed to land on earth in such a way as to be able to show it as supermans weakness AND there be enough to fuel a hundred separate lex luthor schemes or more? I call bull.

Karoht
2011-11-24, 04:44 PM
Supermans main weakness is that krypton exploded entirely in the direction of earth. They sell kryptonite on street corners.This is my point entirely. Look at the absurdity they have to go through to challenge superman for 5 minutes.
Meanwhile, a gang of street thugs could take out Spiderman if they ambush him well enough. It isn't likely to happen, but the potential is there.

Axolotl
2011-11-24, 05:10 PM
The problem isn't so much Superman's power level as his power level in comparison to everyone else's. His nemesis is Lex Luthor which is ridiculous because if he wanted to Superman could kill him at any time he wanted to with virtually no effort. Kryptonite is a fairly lazy solution that's often used to simply drag Superman into fights where he has no place. But this isn't a problem because Superman is powerful, it's because nothing else is anywhere near his power level. Look at for example The Authority (which certainly had no shortage of it's own problems but I'll leave that aside for the moment), The Authority is overall much stronger than Superman, but they're still challenged because they fight beings of a similar power. Who is there for Superman to fight that can possibly challenge him without the aid of Krypotonite? I can think of four maybe five people in the DCU at the most.

Arakune
2011-11-24, 05:13 PM
It would make flying complicated. Perhaps if he carried it with his super-thighs...

He would have Super Horse Ridding-While-Flying power.

Devonix
2011-11-24, 05:40 PM
Supermans main weakness is that krypton exploded entirely in the direction of earth. They sell kryptonite on street corners. Honestly, the entire premise of kryptonite is absurd. You are telling me that a planet, god only knows how many light years away, exploded, and enough debris, (somehow travelling well past the speed of light ) managed to land on earth in such a way as to be able to show it as supermans weakness AND there be enough to fuel a hundred separate lex luthor schemes or more? I call bull.

Kryptonite isn't sold on street corners its an ultra rare substance. the whole thing about it being used in every story is something that hasn't been true for 30 years.

Devonix
2011-11-24, 05:45 PM
The problem isn't so much Superman's power level as his power level in comparison to everyone else's. His nemesis is Lex Luthor which is ridiculous because if he wanted to Superman could kill him at any time he wanted to with virtually no effort. Kryptonite is a fairly lazy solution that's often used to simply drag Superman into fights where he has no place. But this isn't a problem because Superman is powerful, it's because nothing else is anywhere near his power level. Look at for example The Authority (which certainly had no shortage of it's own problems but I'll leave that aside for the moment), The Authority is overall much stronger than Superman, but they're still challenged because they fight beings of a similar power. Who is there for Superman to fight that can possibly challenge him without the aid of Krypotonite? I can think of four maybe five people in the DCU at the most.


But But But The Authority is a DC Comic !!!

The DCU is full of people both at and above superman in terms of power. He's challenged all the time in both combat as well as life.

Axolotl
2011-11-24, 06:06 PM
But But But The Authority is a DC Comic !!!But it was a part of Wildstorm not the DCU (yes I know there were crossovers but they never made any sense, especially not with the Authority involved).


The DCU is full of people both at and above superman in terms of power. He's challenged all the time in both combat as well as life.Who? I mean apart from Doomsday (who Superman can defeat) who is there? He's stronger than Darkseid and apart from the Endless who is there that's better than him?

Devonix
2011-11-24, 06:14 PM
But it was a part of Wildstorm not the DCU (yes I know there were crossovers but they never made any sense, especially not with the Authority involved).

Who? I mean apart from Doomsday (who Superman can defeat) who is there? He's stronger than Darkseid and apart from the Endless who is there that's better than him?

Mongul
Henshaw
a couple of people from one of the Lantern Corps coming after him
Any of the various super baddies DC has in their Crossover Events
Black Adam
Metalo
Other Kryptonians
Daxamites
Various Alien Overlords with Armies
Various super powered Alien Overlords
Mages he goes up against
Powerful Demons
Space Gods
Eclypso
Luthor either in some power armor or just with a devious scheme
the list goes on and on.

Axolotl
2011-11-24, 06:40 PM
Mongul
Henshaw
a couple of people from one of the Lantern Corps coming after him
Any of the various super baddies DC has in their Crossover Events
Black Adam
Metalo
Other Kryptonians
Daxamites
Various Alien Overlords with Armies
Various super powered Alien Overlords
Mages he goes up against
Powerful Demons
Space Gods
Eclypso
Luthor either in some power armor or just with a devious scheme
the list goes on and on.Mongul's been defeated by people weaker than Superman, Metallo uses kryptonite, Other Kryptonians only get to even pretend they can touch Superman because they supposedly have the same powers, same goes for Daxamites, Space Gods can't except Darkseid and even then Superman is stronger.

Look I'm not asking which beings have challenged Superman, I'm asking which beings are on par with him power-wise. I mean Lex Luther isn't, if Superman wanted to he could kill Lex effortlessly, he, like most Superman villans is only a threat because of Superman's moral code, if it weren't for that then they couldn't even pretend to challenge him.

Devonix
2011-11-24, 06:54 PM
Mongul's been defeated by people weaker than Superman, Metallo uses kryptonite, Other Kryptonians only get to even pretend they can touch Superman because they supposedly have the same powers, same goes for Daxamites, Space Gods can't except Darkseid and even then Superman is stronger.

Look I'm not asking which beings have challenged Superman, I'm asking which beings are on par with him power-wise. I mean Lex Luther isn't, if Superman wanted to he could kill Lex effortlessly, he, like most Superman villans is only a threat because of Superman's moral code, if it weren't for that then they couldn't even pretend to challenge him.

I really do not understand what you are talking about. You're not asking about who can challenge him you're asking about people on Par with him. I don't understand the distinction.

Also all the people I've listed are capable of defeating him. The reason they don't is the same reason Batman defeats people. He's the hero of the story.

Traab
2011-11-24, 07:16 PM
Kryptonite isn't sold on street corners its an ultra rare substance. the whole thing about it being used in every story is something that hasn't been true for 30 years.

Yeah I know its an exaggeration now, but really, thats the whole point. The only equalizer for superman is kryptonite, (if it even works the same anymore, I recall earlier discussions where they mention it being a lot less effective now) Nothing else but magic does squat to him. Sonic obliterator canons, earth melting heat rays, freeze rays capable of stopping a sun in supernova, they all basically work like this.

1) 1st hit. It knocks superman on his ass.
2) 2nd hit, it knocks him back and he starts to fight through it.
3) 3rd hit, he generally starts punching his way through the ray of whatever type of damage thats being fired at him :smallsigh: and then breaks the weapon.
4) There is no step 4, thats when it ends.

Im drawing off of older comics and series, because thats when I was willing to give superman the time of day and I hated it. His fights were meaningless because there was no way for him to lose, not even temporarily, without kryptonite. At least batman or spiderman, or other heroes, were forced to retreat every now and then. Superman? Meh, worst case scenario lex drops a chunk of kryptonite on his chest and LEAVES!!!!!:smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurio us::smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious::smal lfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious ::smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious::smallf urious::smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious:: smallfurious: Then lois or jimmy finds him, tosses the kryptonite away, and superman is all better and kicks butt again. Or he finds some way to struggle over and get rid of the green rock.

Axolotl
2011-11-24, 07:28 PM
I really do not understand what you are talking about. You're not asking about who can challenge him you're asking about people on Par with him. I don't understand the distinction.

Also all the people I've listed are capable of defeating him. The reason they don't is the same reason Batman defeats people. He's the hero of the story.Here's the distinction, Lex Luthor can challenge superman with his crazy schemes becasue Superman needs to stop him while not hurting anyone. Les Luthor is not however on par with Superman because at almost any time he wanted Superman could kill Lex Luthor in a fraction of a second without Lex being able to do anything at all to hinder him.

Devonix
2011-11-24, 07:53 PM
Here's the distinction, Lex Luthor can challenge superman with his crazy schemes becasue Superman needs to stop him while not hurting anyone. Les Luthor is not however on par with Superman because at almost any time he wanted Superman could kill Lex Luthor in a fraction of a second without Lex being able to do anything at all to hinder him.

Most of the time killing Lex wouldn't stop his scheme anyway and when it comes down to it if Superman killed him in cold blood then he wouldn't BE Superman hell he wouldn't be a Superhero at all.

When it comes down to it yes there are things capable of hurting or killing superman. If there weren't then there wouldn't even be any big crossover events because the other heroes wouldn't have anything to do. They DO have things to do because Clark can't fix everything himself not even close. and there are threats to big for him.

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-24, 08:22 PM
I never understand some people's thoughts on certain Characters.

There are people who say that Superman is Booring because he's too powerful and in the same breath say that another character is better because they are more powerful


People fully accept one characters handwaving of their abilities and completely ignore the handwaving of anothers.
Why?

Because character should not simply be written but written well When they do outright stupid feats it doesn't deepen the characters, it turns them into Deus Ex Machina and ultimately raises more questions then it answers.

The FTL incident you cited above I went and skimmed the issue to find it. Superman accelerates to high speed to smash a giant shadow planetoid created as a last ditch effort by an overpumped Shadow Thief. And a caption (I want to say its Bats narrating) says Supes only works this hard when he's about to go faster then light. Then the narration goes on to mention how (as per Relativity) ones mass tends to increase as one approaches light speed so because Supes has more mass he's going to hit that much harder.

My infuriating problem is that by invoking Relativity its explicitly in-play, but they don't get it right. It is not hard to understand for example that if it takes an ever increasing amount of energy to accelerate as get closer to lightspeed.... you would need and infinite amount of energy to actually reach lightspeed. The story is explicitly contradicting itself with no explanation as to how. That's not dramatic, awesome, or impressive, its bad writing that underlines that either the author doesn't know high-school physics worth a damn... or thinks you are too stupid too know them and doesn't care.

This is not a "well superheroes are impossible" thing either. I freely overlook the various inconsistencies with physics needed to make superheroes work. I don't complain about how we don't know how Superman flies exactly, or how he catches people without breaking their necks. However this is not a blank check. Limit should exist and when they don't its just bad writing. Like Black Panther beating the Silver Surfer by putting him in an generic armlock. Seriously that happened. Should we look the other way or point out everything wrong with trapping the Herald of Galactus with a human level grapple?

Ultimately you still need some kind of basis for how Supes does what he does. So his body absorbs yellow sunlight to get his superpowers, that's why for example case of him flying close to the sun to get super-charged is a reasonable plot device. But quite aside from such technical issue of why a yellow sun since star color is relative thing, that's not something that should be infinite. See the above about how FTL by being fast requires inifinite energy. The sun, a thousand suns or a thousand galaxies are all insufficient.

Now its not like there aren't ways around that. The Flashes for example have the Speed Force. An extra-dimensional power source that nullifies the effects of their speed, it exists to make them possible. It basically an excuse but its a good one and while not the most consistent thing... it exists. There are other things out there. Various cosmic or magical powers are out there for guys like the Silver Surfer or the Spectre. They all essentially draw on something that breaks the rules for them and even is arguably external to the character.

Superman has no such explanation.

And giving him (in particular) one changes the character very fundamentally. As part of the real appeal of the character is that despite his powers he is still a man. He's not a god, not even the way someone like Marvel's Thor is. As such he has limits, things that he can't accomplish on his own. That's perhaps the true core of the character, that he may be faster and stronger then we will ever be, but he is not a superior being just a regular guy blessed to be faster and stronger.

When you ignore the sorts of limits the design of Superman's character should impose though you do something I'd consider even worse then making him into a god. You've made him actually invincible. This lends credit to problems like every villian using kryptonite, because what other way is even a plausible challenge? That's why a character needs limits.

So what to do when faced with bad writing. Well given that over the years any superhero that lasts can expect dozens of writers and varying achievements... I personally take a general overview as the only sane way to keep things straight. I think this is much what the creators themselves do rather then review every story that may or may not be in canon. Superman's power level thus is not a cherry picking of his highest achievements in any category and combining, but "a hell of a lot" with certain limits that keep him who he is. And you file off the bad stories where Supes sneezed away a galaxy or fell into a pit.

Karoht
2011-11-25, 10:17 AM
The problem isn't so much Superman's power level as his power level in comparison to everyone else's.
~snip~
But this isn't a problem because Superman is powerful, it's because nothing else is anywhere near his power level.
~snip~
I can think of four maybe five people in the DCU at the most.
Your words not mine.
Supporting arguements for my claim that superman is more challenging to write for, both in combat and out, and in part due to his level of power in that he is difficult to challenge. Since the combat sells...

Sometimes they manage to challenge him in other ways. For example, hostage situations. Sure he's fast, but he can't always save everyone, so sometimes he has to resort to some trickery, some fancy words, etc, rather than his godlike superpowers.
How about near the end of superman 1? Two missiles heading two different directions, has to stop them both, only time enough for one. Now, if we ignore the reversal of time as a solution, the situation was very compelling. Godlike power being put to the limit, difficult choices involved, etc.



@Soras
Totally agree.

Tiki Snakes
2011-11-25, 10:25 AM
Yeah, it's the comparative power that's the problem. In the average comic or comic inspired media, what I want is some good action. But with Superman, you can't even count on there being a fight-scene, because so often once it gets to that point, he wins by default. Take Superman Returns. I don't remember there being any fighting in that at all, really.

And that is a recurring problem with Superman, and it's all down to DC's need to have him be more invulnerable and stronger than anyone else as he is their mascot.

I'd find him much more entertaining if he was pitched at a more James-Bond level of fight-dynamics. Strong, Fast, tough, but not so strong, fast, or tough that the big bad won't have at least one mook who is more strong, faster or tougher (choose 2?) than him.

It's all very well providing drama by threatening him in oblique ways, risking collateral damage or threatening hostages etc, but it's not going to hold my personal attention if that's basically the only valid route. The actual comics may rely on this slightly less than the films and so on, at least, with their larger stable of threats but it's still a common enough problem even then.

Axolotl
2011-11-25, 10:59 AM
Most of the time killing Lex wouldn't stop his scheme anyway and when it comes down to it if Superman killed him in cold blood then he wouldn't BE Superman hell he wouldn't be a Superhero at all.It would stop him making any more schemes and my point was that utterly destroying Lex wouldn't take more than a fraction of a second and be almost effortless, that makes him a pretty weak archnemesis. It's because his villans only exist with his permission, Lex is only able to trouble Superman with Superman's permission, Superman never has to go all out on them and as such that makes it hard to take his villany seriously. It's like if Batman had a detonater for a bomb-collar attached to the Joker, sure I know he's not going to use it but it makes the Joker a really lame villan.


When it comes down to it yes there are things capable of hurting or killing superman. If there weren't then there wouldn't even be any big crossover events because the other heroes wouldn't have anything to do. They DO have things to do because Clark can't fix everything himself not even close. and there are threats to big for him.But even many of the crossover villans aren't on par with Superman, I mean Darkseid's supposed to be the big bad of the DCU but Superman is stonger than him.


Your words not mine.
Supporting arguements for my claim that superman is more challenging to write for, both in combat and out, and in part due to his level of power in that he is difficult to challenge. Since the combat sells...

Sometimes they manage to challenge him in other ways. For example, hostage situations. Sure he's fast, but he can't always save everyone, so sometimes he has to resort to some trickery, some fancy words, etc, rather than his godlike superpowers.Unless the people taking Hostages are very, very careful in planning then yes he can save them all. As has be stated in this thread he can move FTL, which in all but the most contived situations should be more than enough to incapacitate all the hostage takers before they can react.



How about near the end of superman 1? Two missiles heading two different directions, has to stop them both, only time enough for one. Now, if we ignore the reversal of time as a solution, the situation was very compelling. Godlike power being put to the limit, difficult choices involved, etc.But the thing is the time reversal did happen, it is within his power. Honestly that scene is one of the reasons I say Superman is comparatively too powerful, his power allows him to escape having to make a meaningful choice and face any tough consequences of that choice.

I'm not saying his power-level means good stories can't be told about Superman (great stories have been told about him), I'm saying it means many bad stories are told about him.

TheEmerged
2011-11-25, 11:19 AM
But the thing is the time reversal did happen, it is within his power. Honestly that scene is one of the reasons I say Superman is comparatively too powerful, his power allows him to escape having to make a meaningful choice and face any tough consequences of that choice.

I'm not saying his power-level means good stories can't be told about Superman (great stories have been told about him), I'm saying it means many bad stories are told about him.

I was a little kid when that movie was in theatres. I said it out loud in the theatre then, and I'm not going to let it slide here either.

"Dad? If Superman can fly so fast he's going around the whole world several times a second, why couldn't he catch two missiles in the same country earlier?"

The scene violated its own movie's rules. It couldn't be more invalidated if we had Neil Patrick Harris riding a unicorn...

Karoht
2011-11-25, 11:23 AM
And that is a recurring problem with Superman, and it's all down to DC's need to have him be more invulnerable and stronger than anyone else as he is their mascot.If Superman is the DC mascot, and the Justice League is the mascot team, I would then compare that to the Avengers or Xmen as the Marvel mascot team, with Spiderman or Capt America as the marvel mascot maybe?



I'd find him much more entertaining if he was pitched at a more James-Bond level of fight-dynamics. Strong, Fast, tough, but not so strong, fast, or tough that the big bad won't have at least one mook who is more strong, faster or tougher (choose 2?) than him. Hence why lower powered heroes are probably easier to write for and challenge than supes.



It's all very well providing drama by threatening him in oblique ways, risking collateral damage or threatening hostages etc, but it's not going to hold my personal attention if that's basically the only valid route. The actual comics may rely on this slightly less than the films and so on, at least, with their larger stable of threats but it's still a common enough problem even then.Indeed. How many times can the bank be held hostage and still be interesting?

Meanwhile, for a guy like Spiderman a bank hostage situation is exciting. He's crawling in vents, he's sticking to the roof, he's surprising the bad guys and webing up their guns and cleverly rescuing the hostages, and at any time could be shot stone cold dead.

Karoht
2011-11-25, 11:36 AM
But the thing is the time reversal did happen, it is within his power. Honestly that scene is one of the reasons I say Superman is comparatively too powerful, his power allows him to escape having to make a meaningful choice and face any tough consequences of that choice.
I'm not saying his power-level means good stories can't be told about Superman (great stories have been told about him), I'm saying it means many bad stories are told about him.

aaaaaaand...


I was a little kid when that movie was in theatres. I said it out loud in the theatre then, and I'm not going to let it slide here either.

"Dad? If Superman can fly so fast he's going around the whole world several times a second, why couldn't he catch two missiles in the same country earlier?"

The scene violated its own movie's rules. It couldn't be more invalidated if we had Neil Patrick Harris riding a unicorn...My point was that up until he used the time reversal, it was compelling. And yes, then indeed, they took away/invalidated everything that made it compelling not some 60 seconds later. I think we agree here.

Lower power heroes are probably more likely to remain internally consistant. Note that I say more likely, as in comparison to high power heroes, not as guarantee or absolute.

Solution I saw to the entire scene? He outsmarts Lex, doesn't even bother going for the missiles at all, rather the holds up both tectonic plates at the same time, preventing the earthquakes altogether, and he could have beat both missiles to the fault line that he flew into anyway. But that is all beside the point.

Tiki Snakes
2011-11-25, 01:54 PM
I'd say Spiderman is as close to a mascot as Marvel genuinely have, given he's in a lot of the logos and so on. Their relationship to him is much different to DC and Superman though, far as I can see.

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-25, 02:07 PM
Yeah, it's the comparative power that's the problem. In the average comic or comic inspired media, what I want is some good action. But with Superman, you can't even count on there being a fight-scene, because so often once it gets to that point, he wins by default. Take Superman Returns. I don't remember there being any fighting in that at all, really.

And that is a recurring problem with Superman, and it's all down to DC's need to have him be more invulnerable and stronger than anyone else as he is their mascot.

Superman movies suck. All of them.

Okay maybe the first should be forgiven for the time. But the exact problems with the Superman movies is part of why Superman was given a complete and comprehensive reboot following 1986s Crisis On Infinite Earths.

And they frankly stopped telling stories where Supes wasn't even challenged but solved things by being super-whatever. The ultimate culmination of this of course would be his death in a slug fest. Given that going in it was everybody understood he'd be coming back it was a good story arc, though it does stink of 90s.


I'd find him much more entertaining if he was pitched at a more James-Bond level of fight-dynamics. Strong, Fast, tough, but not so strong, fast, or tough that the big bad won't have at least one mook who is more strong, faster or tougher (choose 2?) than him.

Not to contradict everything in my other post, but that's way too far. Half of comics (Marvel and DC) play that role in contrast to Superman. His mere existance is a fairly core element of superheroes, because he is THE superhero.

Consider this, even Watchmen thought it needed the superman. The guy whom not even a nuke would stop. Supes still needs that element to him to be who he is, its as important as his fundamental humanity.



It would stop him making any more schemes and my point was that utterly destroying Lex wouldn't take more than a fraction of a second and be almost effortless, that makes him a pretty weak archnemesis. It's because his villans only exist with his permission, Lex is only able to trouble Superman with Superman's permission, Superman never has to go all out on them and as such that makes it hard to take his villany seriously. It's like if Batman had a detonater for a bomb-collar attached to the Joker, sure I know he's not going to use it but it makes the Joker a really lame villan.

Lex Luthor has been at his best when Superman doing that would be: Superman for no reason attacks and abducts/kills successful philanthropist businessman (or US President) Lex Luthor.

Because while we know Luthor is scum, on the surface he's the best of humanity. And in many ways he's the best and worst of us, a dark mirror to Superman and humanity in general. He's the ubermench to Superman's humble messiah.

Unfortunately here the comics have been going more "mad scientist" Lex though the reboot has not made clear Luthor's current place yet, though he's clearly never been president in the new continuity.


But even many of the crossover villans aren't on par with Superman, I mean Darkseid's supposed to be the big bad of the DCU but Superman is stonger than him.

Supes has never been a terribly big combat threat to the crossover villains on his own.

Also Darkseid is not the Big Bad of the DCU because there isn't one, he's generally much less powerful then the Crisis of the time. In Final Crisis when he was the Crisis was a radical departure for Darkseid and Superman did not simply beat him down. Though Supes did lay a single handed beatdown on the villian behind the in Superman Beyond... with the help of a TTGL scale suit designed to run on the pure myth of the unbeatable hero. And it was totally awesome btw.

Darkseid IS a DCAU Superman villain but there ultimately the point was that Darkseid couldn't be beaten because he still had an entire planet full of impossible tech and vast armies to call upon, all of whom he has throughly ruined to serve him loyally.

(If you want to really get into it Darkseid has been gimped in everything Kirby didn't write because Kirby wrote Darkseid with an "I win" button that can't be deployed because of that problem. He's just too cool for others to not use)


If Superman is the DC mascot, and the Justice League is the mascot team, I would then compare that to the Avengers or Xmen as the Marvel mascot team, with Spiderman or Capt America as the marvel mascot maybe?

Supes and Cap are equivalents, but Marvel doesn't quite have as defined a structure as DC does. Spidey would be Marvel's mascot if they had to pick.

If you can track it down you should check out JLA/Avengers, the last time the two companies did a crossover in the early 00s. The differences between universes are discussed quite a bit. They are quite open about thing like that the Avengers are less powerful on the whole. The series includes such awesomeness as Superman wielding Thor's Hammer and Cap Shield, and Cap leading the combined Avengers/JLA.


Indeed. How many times can the bank be held hostage and still be interesting?

Meanwhile, for a guy like Spiderman a bank hostage situation is exciting. He's crawling in vents, he's sticking to the roof, he's surprising the bad guys and webing up their guns and cleverly rescuing the hostages, and at any time could be shot stone cold dead.

Which is precisely why if Superman is foiling a bank heist its only a delaying tactic in the larger story going on.

But Spidey is never going to plausibly catch plains falling out of the sky. And its nice to have a hero that can do that.


I was a little kid when that movie was in theatres. I said it out loud in the theatre then, and I'm not going to let it slide here either.

"Dad? If Superman can fly so fast he's going around the whole world several times a second, why couldn't he catch two missiles in the same country earlier?"

The scene violated its own movie's rules. It couldn't be more invalidated if we had Neil Patrick Harris riding a unicorn...

You says this like Neil Patrick Harris riding a unicorn wouldn't be awesome though... I can even think of the unicorn!

But yes this is the exact problem with Superman not having limits. They don't even have to be low level ones. There's no problem with Superman even being fast enough to catch both missiles. But when he becomes a plot device it all falls apart.

Xondoure
2011-11-26, 03:59 PM
Your words not mine.
Supporting arguements for my claim that superman is more challenging to write for, both in combat and out, and in part due to his level of power in that he is difficult to challenge. Since the combat sells...

Sometimes they manage to challenge him in other ways. For example, hostage situations. Sure he's fast, but he can't always save everyone, so sometimes he has to resort to some trickery, some fancy words, etc, rather than his godlike superpowers.
How about near the end of superman 1? Two missiles heading two different directions, has to stop them both, only time enough for one. Now, if we ignore the reversal of time as a solution, the situation was very compelling. Godlike power being put to the limit, difficult choices involved, etc.



@Soras
Totally agree.

Yes, quite the dilemma. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yavK0mnE3wI)

Johel
2011-11-27, 11:29 AM
First thing I thought when reading the OP :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVFdAJRVm94