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View Full Version : The Final Fantasy Timeline Theory



DiscipleofBob
2011-11-17, 02:07 PM
The Basics

This was a theory I typed up in high school, and, for those of you who read 8-Bit Theater, actually got posted on Red Mage’s Twinkin’ Out Column. The general theory is that all of the Final Fantasies (or at least the main ones anyway) are not in fact separate universes, but all part of the same timelines, with hundreds, perhaps thousands of years between each game. The major differences in landscapes and geography are explained by a geological climate that is constantly shifting thanks to all the magics and regular apocalypses that seem to plague the universe. The different cities and kingdoms are explained by ever-changing political climates: nations rise and fall or perhaps just change their name under a different ruler. I wanted to write a more comprehensive version of this theory than what I hurriedly typed up in high school.

Disclaimers


The attempt is to connect Final Fantasies 1 through X in chronological order, with one exception. I’m not even taking anything from FF11 on into account, nor any of the spinoff series at this point. Perhaps once the main ten are linked will I try to fit in the others. No, Dissidia doesn’t really work with this theory and I won’t be taking it into consideration, at least not yet.
A lot of this is FAN THEORY. That is, speculation without proof from the canon. If you ask me to prove something happens a certain way when it’s clearly one of the speculated or theorized bits, I will most likely ignore you.
Why is this in Media Discussion instead of Gaming (Other) you ask? Several reasons. I) some of the sources we have to look into for information are not video games. There are novelizations, anime, movies, interviews, art books, commentaries, all sorts of media to work with even though the main sources are the video games. II) Generally speaking from what I’ve seen, the Media forum of this board is better about discussing the story, settings, philosophies, etc. while the Gaming board talks more about the mechanics behind the games, the latter of which doesn’t really help that much in this theory. Not saying that’s always the case, it just seemed to be the general trend here.
This theory will likely step on the toes of a lot of Word of God and other materials designed to supplement and explain the canon. I will do my best to fill in the holes in the theory, but at some point I will end up flat-out declare something false that is currently labeled as canon. By all means though, if you can find material that contradicts something in this theory, or have any suggestions, questions, or other criticisms, feel free to post them. If I end up agreeing I’ll go back and alter something.
No, the entire theory is not posted yet. I’m going one game at a time because this is enough of an information dump as is, and if I try to do the entire series at once, that means that I) it’ll take that much longer for readers to process, and II) it’s that much more likely I’ll miss important details. It’s better if I put this theory up in chunks to make it easier for constructive criticism. The main ten games will all be posted in time.
I apologize if I give blatantly incorrect information on a subject and welcome criticism as to such. Specifically for Final Fantasies 2, 3, and 5 since I never actually beat those games. I'm currently confident that I've read enough spoilers and wiki entries to write about them, but I could very easily make a mistake on those games. The rest of the main games in the series I'm fairly certain I have memorized.


I think that's everything, so without further ado, I present...

The Final Fantasy Timeline Theory
Final Fantasy I

The Plot

We start out in the world of Final Fantasy 1. The world is under siege from dark forces which seek to corrupt the very elements themselves. The world’s last standing human kingdom is Corneria, the last bastion of hope and the source of a prophecy involving four Light Warriors who will save the world. Four Light Warriors bearing crystals do indeed appear and fulfill the prophecy, defeating corrupt elemental fiends and restoring the light to the crystals. Along the way, we find out the truth that the traitor knight Garland was the man behind the plot, using the energy drained from the crystals to send himself back in time to start this whole process, causing a time paradox to result in a millennia-long time loop at a bid for immortality as the demon Chaos.

The Light Warriors break the time loop and restore the world. They manage to get back to their own time where they are hailed as heroes, and Garland exists as a different person: a benevolent and loyal knight who never even conceived of the plot for immortality.

The Aftermath

Corneria becomes the global superpower, all other nations, or at least their remnants, paying homage to them. The world is surely but slowly being rebuilt. Most importantly, however, measures are being taken to better safeguard the crystals, lest the next villain decide to try and attack them to destroy the world…



Final Fantasy II

The Plot

The elemental crystals are not seen or mentioned in II, probably (and thankfully) because they aren’t central to the plot this time, so they remain hidden for now. The world is being threatened as the Emperor of the world’s strongest nation desires to rule the world, and thus launches a campaign to conquer the world, crushing any resistance in his path. The plot of Final Fantasy II revolves around some refugees who prove themselves to the rebels and become unlikely heroes. The plot is basically an arms race of magical artifacts and weapons. Multiple cities are destroyed, including the land of the dragoons. The party finally manages to confront the Emperor inside the destructive force known as the Cyclone. But their battle is far from over. Even from the afterlife, the Emperor actually manages to raise Castle Pandemonium from hell with his own army from the underworld. No longer content to rule just the world of the living, the Emperor attempts to conquer this and every world, only finally getting destroyed by our party and being banished back to the underworld, this time for good.

The Aftermath

The Emperor’s ambition was stopped, but not before leaving his mark on the world. The nations of the world had now learned to fear each other, as any nation with too much power could decide to try and take over the world. The trend towards gathering/building powerful weapons, magical or otherwise, was also started (Dreadnought, Sunfire, Cyclone, Ultima, Mythril, etc.). Thus the world’s nations obsessed over an arms race that would carry on to the distant future, a source for the future conflicts that the world sought to prevent. On top of that, Castle Pandemonium might have sunk back into hell, but the dam had already burst. The monsters of hell could now reach the world of the living, causing the race for military power among the few surviving nations to hasten to protect themselves.

The Connections

The emergence of Corneria as THE world power at the end of Final Fantasy 1 was accepted mainly because Princess Sara was a kind, just, and noble woman who understood what was at stake. Under her rule, the various races and nations of the world could come together in an age of peace and prosperity. But rulers don’t last forever, and their heirs don’t always live up to their precedent. After many years of changing politics, the central power of the world was eventually renamed Palamecia, and its emperor, whoever his ancestors might be, was far from kind. The Emperor was easily the most powerful man in the world, but he sought complete and total control of everything. The other nations of the world were completely unprepared for his military campaign.

Possibly the largest inconsistency between the first and second game is the lack of several key components from the first game: other sentient races like elves, dwarves, dragons, etc., and the crystals. The former could possibly be explained by interracial marriage and breeding blending the genomes until there were no real differences, but the unfortunately more likely possibility is that the majority of said races were wiped out by the Emperor’s ethnic cleansing. One bit of evidence we have for that is the society of dragoons and dragons that was wiped out by the empire before you can ask for their aid in game. It is possible that some of the other races survived, but were just in hiding for the whole game. The dwarves could just dig deeper, the elves could hide out in remote forests, etcetera, especially since such races to some degree to appear in later Final Fantasy games. That’s probably why the crystals aren’t mentioned. They’re probably well-hidden, and neither side wants to destroy the world so they would be kept out of the fray as much as possible. The Emperor has every reason to leave the crystals untouched so the world he wishes to rule over stays intact.



Final Fantasy III

The Plot


Many years ago, on a Floating Continent hovering high above the surface of an unnamed planet, a technologically advanced civilization sought to harness the power of the four elemental crystals of light. They did not realize they could not hope to control such fundamental forces of nature. This power of light would have consumed the world itself had the light crystals not had their natural counterparts: the four dark elemental crystals. Disturbed by the interruption of the careful balance of the light and the dark, four warriors were granted the power of the dark crystals in order to re-contain the light crystals' power.

This bit from the Final Fantasy Wiki is where we begin because it directly plays into where we left off in Final Fantasy II, namely an escalating magical arms race that climaxes with a technologically advanced floating continent and an attempt to harness the powers of the crystals which ends in a world disaster, leaving most of the world sealed in darkness and only the floating continent safe from the dangers of the world below.

The adventure this time revolves around four orphaned youths on the floating continent who come across the previously sealed Wind Crystal. The Crystal grants the youths its power, giving them the abilities of various Jobs that they can switch between at will (something that will come up several times later). The youths, charged with saving the world, set out to explore the floating continent on which they live, on the way meeting Vikings, Dwarves, Mini-People, Bahamut, and evil monsters like Medusa claiming to be a servant of the dark wizard Xande attempting to destroy the entire floating continent. They eventually find the Fire Crystal and receive its blessing and more jobs.

Our heroes then learn that their floating “continent” is but an island compared to the vast world that lies below, and that they were originally from said continent, having been rescued by Cid when they were still very young, and his airship entered a cloud of darkness before crashing on the floating continent. The world below is a swirling mass of darkness, most of the remaining settlements enshrouded and stopped in time. It is only once they find and reactivate the Water Crystal that the time flows again and the world is returned to normal.

It turns out the tide of darkness was caused by the dark sorcerer Xande, an attempt to stop time to stave off his own mortality. Xande was the apprentice of a powerful magus named Noah, still revered among the wizarding world, along with fellow apprentices Doga and Unne. Noah gave his disciples each a gift: Doga vast knowledge of magic, Unne control over the world of dreams, and Xande mortality. Xande, confused and furious with his “gift,” sought to create an imbalance of the world to stop time, so he drained the energy from the Water and Earth crystals on the surface below. The Fire and Wind crystals were stored safely on the floating continent, but for the time being, Xande was successful in stopping time on the surface world. When our heroes journey to the world below, their quest to restore the light to the crystals starts time moving again.

Eventually, our heroes meet with Doga and Unne, who seek to aid the heroes against Xande’s dark ambitions. They end up giving their lives so their souls can power the keys to the Crystal Tower where Xande awaits. They find the Earth Crystal in the maze surrounding the Crystal Tower, and proceed to Xande’s lair. After finally defeating the dark sorcerer, a being called the Cloud of Darkness appears, claiming to have been using the darkness in Xande’s heart to manipulate him the entire time. The Cloud of Darkness effortlessly defeats our heroes with her Particle Beam, but thanks to a macguffin arranged by the souls of Doga, Unne, and the prayers of their allies the heroes made through their adventures, the heroes come back to life and pursue the Cloud of Darkness on her own turf: the World of Darkness.

In the World of Darkness, the heroes find four Dark Crystals, the counterparts to the four crystals of their world. After defeating some monsters guarding the crystals, they find the four Dark Warriors who saved their world some time ago when a different imbalance caused light to almost envelop and destroy their world. Confronting the Cloud of Darkness, the four Dark Warriors sacrifice themselves to make the Cloud of Darkness vulnerable to harm. In an epic final battle, our heroes defeat the Cloud of Darkness and restore balance to the world, then returning on the floating continent.

The Aftermath

Final Fantasy III starts out with the world in shambles. The game isn’t so much about saving the world as putting it back together. When Xande and the Cloud of Darkness are defeated and the crystals are restored, balance returns and the world can begin to heal. The events leading up to Final Fantasy III, namely the magical arms race, saw the creation of new magics including Summon Magic, something that we’ll have to take into consideration later. The theme of crystals choosing heroes and imbuing those heroes with power will be repeated in later games as well.

The Connections

Final Fantasy III contains a lot of firsts that we’ll need to keep track of for the sake of the theory, but let’s start with the crystals. In FF3, there are 8 crystals, four light and four dark. Presumably the four dark crystals also correspond to fire, earth, air and wind. This might seem to contradict our timeline in the events of FF1, but it actually doesn’t. In FF1 there were eight crystals as well: one in each shrine, and one carried by each Light Warrior. Although the final dungeon is called the ‘World of Darkness,’ we have no reason to believe that it’s another dimension or world at all, just a secluded place where the Dark Crystals are stored. For our world, we’re going to currently assume there are eight crystals, two for each element, and that each crystal also acts as sort of a backup generator for the other. Darkness swallowed the world not just because the Light Crystals were being drained dry, but because the Dark Crystals were out of commission as well, being guarded by monsters in the Dark World. We’ll see these same crystals in FF4.

The lore of this game mentions another epic story where four ‘Dark Warriors’ stop another imbalance from destroying the world, though in their story light is trying to engulf the world. This might not seem to tie into the other games, but if we stretch the story and allow for some of the details to have changed over several generations. In Final Fantasy 1, the four designated Light Warriors of the prophecy show up apparently out of nowhere each carrying a “darkened crystal, one for each element.” In order to save the world, they have to go to each crystal and, using their own crystal, restore the light of the crystals. This theory hypothesizes that the Light Warriors actually carried the Dark Crystals, and used their properties to give light to the Light Crystals and restore the balance. Their plan backfired, however, since Garland/Chaos’s plan drew upon the light of all four crystals to power his time loop. This could be interpreted as the ‘light engulfing the world’ the story of FF3 talks about, and since no real mention of who the FF1 Light Warriors are or what their ultimate fate is (unlike the nameless protagonists of FF3 who are stated to be orphans who go back to their village at the end of the game), it’s possible that the Light Warriors of FF1 are in fact the nameless Dark Warriors of FF3, and they give their lives to combat the Cloud of Darkness.

Let’s go now to the Floating Continent. We know from the lore that it’s the remnant of an advanced civilization that tried to harness the power of the Light Crystals, and that it was the one refuge when the world was swallowed by darkness. We know there are multiple races, including the dwarves, on the floating continent that have lived for possibly hundreds of years in ignorance of the status of the world below. When the world was swallowed by darkness, it’s likely that everyone who could took refuge on the floating continent via airships, or even possibly Bahamut. According to lore, the magus Noah was the one who actually put Bahamut and Leviathan on the island. We know of a civilization capable of floating cities: the Lufeins of Final Fantasy I. It’s possible that this continent was the natural evolution of their technology. Not just a floating city, but an entire continent.

Speaking of Bahamut, his role in FF3 is odd in that it’s both the first time he can be summoned and the only time he’s not presented as some sort of divine dragon-god-king and instead as a wild beast. Because of the advent of Summon magic, some dark implications arise. It’s possible that Bahamut along with other summoned creatures were enslaved and brainwashed as part of early summon magical experiments. Bahamut’s behavior is due to his mind being wiped and not having any master to control his actions, thus reverting to the actions of a wild dragon.

One important detail that I didn’t mention in the Plot section is that Final Fantasy III marked the first appearance of the Moogles. They were friendly servants of the wizard Doga before his demise. It would make sense that Moogles were magically created creatures, like familiars, who were sentient and helpful. Their bodies including their tiny wings, colorful and cute appearance, and red bonbon don’t exactly lend themselves well to evolution, and their demeanor is far from the norm for natural selection. Doga created the Moogles as servants to help with his magical studies, and after Doga’s death, the Moogles were free to do as they pleased, living throughout the Final Fantasy series in ways we’ll get to in later installments.



Final Fantasy IV

The Plot:

When we last checked on our Final Fantasy world, it was in a rare era of prosperity. Balance had been restored to the light and dark crystals, all the tyrants and evil advisors had been overthrown (for the time being), and the land was allowed to prosper. Over time, the light crystals were restored to place of balance on the surface world and the dark crystals were well hidden underground. Instead of hiding the light crystals in dungeons, something that the past had shown to be a bad idea, kingdoms were built around the crystals to protect them. The residents of the floating island eventually migrated to the surface world, the floating island itself left to drift into obscurity (we’ll touch upon its fate later).

Kingdoms which protect and are protected by the power of the crystals greatly prosper, but other kingdoms pop up as well. Eblan, the secretive home of the ninjas, prospers largely isolated from the rest of the world. Baron, not governed by the power of the crystals or superstition, becomes the leader of an industrial revolution that rediscovers airship technology and constructs its own fleet. For a time, there is peace. Then something happens: the ruler of Baron does a personality 180 and suddenly starts attacking other peaceful kingdoms to raid their crystals. Their first act is to raid Mysidia, causing numerous casualties before the mages who live there to surrender the Water crystal. The other kingdoms are ill-defended: Damcyan, a kingdom in the middle of desert full of culture and trade but little military force, Fabul, a kingdom of monks and martial strength but little in the way of full military might, and Troia, a matriarchal theocracy headed by the pacifist Epopts. However, the corrupted Baron does fear the potential might of the Summoners in the hidden town of Mist. Fortunately, the captain of his force, Cecil, is showing doubts and signs of possible disloyalty, so he sends him to deliver a ‘package’, which turns out to be a massive bomb spell which burns the city to the ground, killing all but a young summoner girl named Rydia.

Cecil then goes on a quest to warn and hopefully defend the other crystals, but he arrives at Damcyan too late. He gets to Fabul and the monks assemble only to be beaten back by Baron’s forces, including monsters, Cecil’s old friend Kain, and the mysterious armored figure known as Golbez. Cecil’s love Rosa is kidnapped by Golbez and Cecil resolves to take a ship to Baron with, at this point, the summoner girl Rydia, the bard/king of Damcyan Edward, and the future king of Fabul, Yang. On the way to Baron, their ship gets attacked and swallowed by Leviathan and the group is separated. Cecil wakes on the shores of Mysidia, the very town of mages that he had attacked under the service of the king before. The Elder gives Cecil a quest to go to the top of Mount Ordeals, where Cecil faces and triumphs over his darker side and becomes a Paladin. Along the way, he must face a servant of Golbez: the earth fiend known as Scarmiglione.

Cecil, along with Mysidia twins Porom and Palom, and the sage Tellah, go to Baron via a mystical channel known as the Devil’s Road. They encounter Yang in the town of Baron who was brainwashed into serving the kingdom until Cecil defeats him and sets his mind straight. They sneak into the castle and confront the king, who is actually the water fiend Cagnazzo in disguise. The ruse exposed, the group finds and frees the engineer Cid who provides them with an airship. Porom & Palom petrify themselves to stop a crushing wall trap (they get better later), and the four (Cecil, Cid, Tellah, and Yang) take the airship to the earth crystal in Troia. Unfortunately, they find out that a certain Dark Elf has stolen the crystal and hidden in the Lodestone Cavern. The party goes after the earth crystal, and at some point meet Kain in an enemy airship, with the offer to exchange the earth crystal for Rosa. (They also meet a recovering Edward in Troia.)

Cecil reluctantly gives the earth crystal to Kain, and the airship is escorted to the Tower of Zot at an unknown location, where the group fights the wind fiend Barbariccia and Golbez. Tellah gives his life to use the powerful magic Meteor on Golbez which injures but doesn’t kill him. Seemingly though this is enough to break the control over Kain, who informs the group that there are still the four Dark crystals remaining. They rescue Rosa and teleport out of the Tower before it crumbles on top of them.

They unlock the hidden path to the underground world and head below in their airship, and after sustaining an attack, crash near the Dwarven Kingdom. They fight and seemingly defeat Golbez for the crystal with the help of a returned adult Rydia, but Golbez’s magics allow him to sneak away the crystal before anyone can stop him. They assault the Tower of Babil where the (now seven) crystals in Golbez’s possession are kept, and in the process Yang sacrifices himself to stop a superpowered cannon from destroying the dwarves (he survives, but is injured for the rest of the game.) On the way out from the underworld, Cid sacrifices himself to seal the hole to the surface so the Red Wings can’t pursue Cecil and co (he also survives and gets better eventually).

Cecil, Kain, Rydia, and Rosa find their way to Eblan, seemingly abandoned after being attacked by the fiend Rubicante. It turns out the ninjas of Eblan just evacuated to nearby tunnels that would also lead into the Tower of Babil. They find Eblan’s prince, Edge, who seeks to kill Rubicante to avenge his father and mother who were killed in the attack. Edge joins the party, and together they fight and defeat Rubicante. They steal a ship from the Tower of Babil called the Falcon and they use it to reach the Sealed Cavern where the last dark crystal sleeps. They retrieve the crystal, but right when they’re about to leave Golbez reasserts his control over Kain, who betrays the party and steals the crystal.

With the help of the Elder and the ancient ship known as the Big Whale, the party travels to the second moon, a constant source of superstition for the world, where they learn that Cecil’s father, Kluya, was part of the Lunarian race which inhabited this second moon before, and that one Lunarian, Zemus, has gone rogue and is responsible for the actions of Golbez and Kain. They recruit the Lunarian FuSoYa and head back to the planet’s surface where Golbez has used the crystals to revive the Giant of Babil, a mechanical weapon so large that Cecil and company have to infiltrate inside the giant while their allies use all the military might left in the world to distract it. Defeating the four archfiends again, stopping the giant, and with FuSoYa’s help, breaking the control over Golbez and Kain, we learn that Golbez is Cecil’s brother and Golbez and FuSoYa head back to the moon to confront Zemus.

The party (Cecil, Kain, Rydia, Rosa, and Edge) travel to the moon’s core to witness Golbez and FuSoYa strike down Zemus, but Zemus’s hatred manifests as the seemingly invincible Zeromus who easily defeats Golbez and FuSoYa, before turning on the party and wiping them out in one attack as well. Through the prayers of their allies on the surface, and a crystal provided by Golbez, the party manages to make Zeromus vulnerable and finally defeat him. The party heads back to the surface, while FuSoYa and Golbez stay on the second moon which leaves for the distance. Cecil and Rosa get married and Cecil becomes king of Baron, Kain leaves to train his body and atone for his role in the events that transpired, Rydia rebuilds Mist and maintains relations with the world of eidolons in the underworld, Edward becomes king and rebuilds Damcyan, Yang becomes king of Fabul, and Edge becomes king of Eblan.

I will cover the After Years in a different update, since it contains a lot of pertinent information to cover with our theory.

The Aftermath:

This will be shorter than other entries, as I have to review a lot of information in The After Years and Final Fantasy V before I make full connections. What we do know so far is that although the crystals were once again stolen by malevolent forces, they were retrieved and returned to their places in each kingdom. The crystals will once again play an important role in the installment of this theory for V.

The Connections:

The biggest difference between past games and this one is the presence of a second moon, which isn’t a moon at all. It’s a space station! References aside, that’s not completely untrue. In Final Fantasy I, we had the floating castle as a remnant of the Lufenian civilization, In Final Fantasy III, it had grown into a small continent. Keeping at its rate, by Final Fantasy IV, it had become an entire second moon fully capable of space travel. The inhabitants of the second moon claim they did not come from earth, but from a different planet altogether. This theory both supports and refutes that claim. It’s possible that the second moon, fully capable of space travel, actually traveled and possibly colonized a whole planet in our solar system, the advanced science, technology, and magic allowed for a terraforming project on a massive scale. But the process was experimental and eventually failed, and generations later the second moon returned to the Blue Planet with a different crew entirely who believed the Blue Planet to be entirely new to them. They claim the crystals were their invention, but aside from the many artificial crystals that powered their ‘space station,’ we know that to be false, so it’s possible they assumed the crystals were somehow of their invention.

To support this theory, we have the true king of the eidolons, Bahamut, living on the moon. If the second moon was truly alien to the planet, it wouldn’t make sense for a recognized member of the eidolons of earth to be found on the moon. Bahamut, was, however, on the floating continent of Final Fantasy III, even if at the time he’d been reduced to a feral state. We also know the eidolons in general are in hiding. Based on what we’ve postulated about summoning magics in FFIII, we can assume that the eidolons eventually broke free of control and hid in their own society deep underground where they couldn’t be enslaved, only allowing their services to the chosen summoners of Mist whom they fostered a relationship with. Leviathan and Asura are the acting rulers of the eidolons on earth, even though Bahamut is and probably will always be their true ruler.

The Lunarians are, biologically, completely human. Their differences are purely in their culture and technology, whatever their claims might be, and we can start to see the pattern of a wise, advanced society in the FF-Verse which claims to be a different race altogether. The Lufenians of FFI, the prophet Gulgans of FFIII, and it certainly won’t be the last example.

We can see that although the Dragoon tradition is rare, it’s still managed to survive throughout the years, likely through only one or two practicioners passing it down through the family lines.

We see the obvious fates of the Light Crystals and the Dark Crystals as they’re clearly referenced, even though we never see the actual resting places of two of the Dark Crystals (in both FFIV and its sequel they’re already stolen before you can get to them).

But what about the Moogles which made their first appearance in FFIII? Well, we have similar creatures in the Namingways, and while they differ slightly in appearance in the first game, their appearance in the second game is more reminiscent of the moogles. We also see a large colony of them on the moon, which makes sense since they would most likely function as servants of the magically inclined Lunarians.



Final Fantasy V

The Plot:

I'm going to try and summarize the important points. According to in-game mythology, there was one world with four crystals. Then a powerful immortal wizard named Enuo attempted to use the power of the Void to take over the world, was defeated, and as a result the world and its crystals were split into two.

30 years before the main plot, four heroes known as the Warrior of Dawn on the second world fought an evil force known as Exdeath. Exdeath was once a tree in the Great Forest of Moore where, since Enuo's demise, evil beings had been sealed inside the tree until it developed a malevolent sentience. The Warriors of Dawn pursued Exdeath to the other world where he was sealed and temporarily defeated. One of the Warriors of Dawn, Dorgann, stayed in the alternate world to make sure Exdeath stayed defeated. Dorgann eventually had a son, Bartz, the main protagonist of Final Fantasy V.

When his father finally passed, Bartz started to travel the world as per his wishes. During his travels, Bartz comes across a meteor crash site where he finds an amnesiac old man who can only remember his name, Galuf. Galuf we later find out is one of the original Warriors of Dawn and a king in the other dimension. They also come across the princess Lenna, who's headed to the Wind Shrine where her father, King Tycoon, was headed to check on the status of the Wind Crystal. Bartz, Lenna, and Galuf resolve to go to the Wind Shrine but no ships are sailing since the wind died down. They find a pirate ship still working run by the enigmatic Captain Faris, pulled by the sea dragon Syldra. The four go to the Wind Shrine where they are chosen by the crystals to defend the world as the Wind Crystal is destroyed. The shards, however, grant the party new powers in the form of job/classes.

The party travels the world to try and save the remaining crystals, but they are being drained of power by various forces in the world, and Exdeath has the power to possess key individuals to destroy the crystals. One by one the crystals are destroyed and the seal binding Exdeath weakens. On the way to the last crystal, they meet Krile, Galuf's granddaughter, who helps Galuf regain his memories. The last crystal is destroyed, and the party follows Galuf to his homeworld where they engage Exdeath's army and servants in a number of battles.

The party confronts Exdeath in the Great Forest of Moore, where Exdeath has corrupted and taken control of that world's crystals. Galuf sacrifices himself to save Krile and weaken Exdeath, but Exdeath escapes. Galuf grants Krile his power and Krile joins the party in his place. The group confronts Exdeath again and defeats him, but in the process the remaining crystals shatter and the two worlds merge. This also unleashes the power of the Void contained in the Interdimensional Rift, Exdeath's true goal.

The party collects four Slabs to unseal the twelve Legendary Weapons which were used to defeat Enuo long ago, along the way fighting the Demons of the Rift that Exdeath summons. They eventually enter the Interdimensional Rift and confront Exdeath. The spirits of the Dawn Warriors and King Tycoon use their power to make Exdeath vulnerable, and the party fights and defeats him. Exdeath gets consumed by the power of the void and becomes Neo Exdeath, but the party manages to defeat him as well.

The four Light Crystals are restored and the world is restored to normal, though still merged.

The Aftermath:

Of the eight crystals, only four remained that we know of. Then again, if the two worlds were merged, then the eight crystals were probably merged into the remaining four as well. Essentially, the crystals were destroyed during the plot causing one of the world-changing apocalypses that plague this world. Whether balance is truly restored is a mystery, but Exdeath was defeated and the power of the void was sealed, so the world is at least optimistic for now.

However, the world has discovered that a shard from the crystal bestows great power, and suddenly a lot of people have a reason to risk breaking the crystals to gain their power. Seeing as this is likely the last we'll see of the actual Light Crystals, it's highly possible that between this game and the next, the crystals were broken by those seeking their power.

The Connections:

The very first and most obvious discrepancy we need to cover is the world's mythological origin, as it directly conflicts with our current theory that there are eight crystals to keep track of, not four. We could chalk this up to the world inventing its own mythology to explain the presence of the second world and the other four crystals, but let's take from this what we can. In the beginning, there was the Void, the power of nothingness: no air, no vacuum, no life or death, just nothing. Then the crystals came into being. Those crystals split into a total of eight crystals. Perhaps there was even only one crystal to begin with (something that will come into play later). This still contradicts the canon, however, in that the splitting of the crystals occurred not 1000 years ago, but much farther back before any of the previous entries.

Of course, this brings us to our second contradiction, Enuo:


1,000 years before the start of the game, Enuo, an immortal wizard, traded his immortality for control over the Void. With this great power of nothingness under his control, he wreaked havoc across the original world. Eventually though, Enuo was defeated by the power of the twelve Sealed Weapons. After the battle, the Crystals were split into two so that the world itself would be split into two as well. The Void was then contained in the newly formed Interdimensional Rift between the two dimensions, so that no evil being could ever use the dark power again. Final Fantasy V Advance shows that while he was consumed by the Void, his essence lived on in the Sealed Temple within the Void itself.

However minor a part he might have played in the game itself, the story of Enuo is important to FFV and our timeline in general. We can ignore the number of “1000 years” entirely, since it's highly unlikely that the game's storyline is on the millennial anniversary of Enuo's defeat, and much more likely that 1000 years is only a rough estimate and merely a term from the legends. “After the battle, the Crystals were split into two so that the world would be split into two as well.” If the sentence is taken literally, the timeline falls apart, but if we attribute some discrepancies to changes in the myth over time, we could instead interpret it as the crystals being split into two groups: four for the first world and four for the second world. The story of Enuo himself, a being who traded his immortality for unimaginable power, sounds very similar the story of Xande: a being whose gift from his teacher was having his immortality removed. Enuo, being a poweful wizard, was likely well-versed in mythology, studied the story of Xande, and realized what Xande did not: that immortality, while nice, also limited his power. By Enuo accomplishing what Xande failed to realize, Enuo traded his immortality for control over the Void: the power of nothingness, to cancel life, death, and existence itself. Suddenly, the action of Xande's teacher make more sense. He trusted Doga with the power of earthly magic, Unne with the realm of dreams, and Xande with the power of the void whether Xande realized it or not. This is how Xande also unconsciously summoned the Cloud of Darkness, a being of the void, way back when.

As for the actual splitting of the world, a creative interpretation of the world “splitting” leads us to a different conclusion. We know of the presence of the second moon. Once a castle, a city, then a continent, and then a moon and even possibly another planet. The second moon grows over time, until events prior to Final Fantasy V give the “second moon” its own dimension. But the two worlds cannot exist simultaneously, so either a war broke out or the top mages searched for a way for the worlds to coexist. The end result is the four Dark Crystals have to be set on the second world, and they coexist via parallel dimensions, the eight crystals remaining in balance to support both worlds.

That covers our two biggest connections: the crystals and the second moon. At some point, I'd like to go back and cover the various summons: Bahamut, Ifrit, Shiva, etcetera since they seem to span over the games as well, but for now we'll leave them alone unless their presence is vital to the storyline. If all the main games fit in the first post of this thread, the second will be devoted to other elements of the Final Fantasy series and how they interconnect, such as Chocobos, Moogles, and Summons, as well as possibly other fan theories regarding Final Fantasy.



I eagerly await your thoughts.

DiscipleofBob
2011-11-17, 02:09 PM
So we finally hit the character limit on the OP. Hopefully we can fit the remaining 5 games in the second post here.

Anyway, here we go.

The Final Fantasy Timeline Theory, Part 2Final Fantasy VI

The Plot

You might think Final Fantasy VI’s plot begins with the War of the Magi, but you’d be wrong. The first bit we have to consider is the Warring Triad. Long before Final Fantasy VI and even before the War of the Magi (but still after Final Fantasy V in case you’re keeping score), the Warring Triad existed. Essentially, they were the gods of magic, and at one point, they waged war against each other. The humans who were caught in the crossfire were turned to Espers, the summons of this world. Eventually, the Warring Triad decided to cease hostilities before the world was completely destroyed and sealed themselves in stone to preserve the balance of magic.

Then we get the War of the Magi. While the Warring Triad called a ceasefire, apparently no one else got the memo. Magic-less humans wanted the power that was granted to the Espers for themselves, and such the war began. Humans who managed to gain some of the magical power were called Magi. The war ended with the Espers sealing themselves off in their own world. The remaining Magi were blamed for the war and hunted until they themselves fled to isolation.

Fast-forward to the present, where Emperor Gestahl is making his own bid at world conquest through the power of Magitek, technology powered by magic. Actual Magi have become a thing of legend, though Gestahl does have troops able to cast spells by virtue of Magitek experiments via the Cid of the time. The Empire’s already completely taken over the entire southern continent by the start of the game, and have set their sights on the kingdoms of Doma and Figaro as well as the town of Narshe.

Gestahl’s three generals included the honorable General Leo, who unlike his compatriots actually followed rules of engagement, General Celes, a girl infused with Magitek from a young age, and Kefka. Kefka was the first Magitek Knight (person infused with magic), but the process was experimental, and while Kefka was gifted with immense magical power, his mind and sanity were shattered. Kefka served as Gestahl’s court mage and eventually his third general, but all the meanwhile he was performing his own magical experiments in secret, as well as stealing from the Empire’s resources of magic.

The Empire manages to briefly locate the sealed world of the Espers and launches a short-lived invasion campaign before a stronger seal is placed on the gateway between worlds. In the process, he manages to capture a few espers and something even more unique: the child of a human and an esper, Terra. Terra was raised not as a child, but as a weapon of mass destruction since she could naturally use magic. The exact details of her early life are unknown, but at some point Kefka puts a Slave Crown on her head, brainwashing her into doing whatever Kefka says. As a test run, Kefka has Terra annihilate 50 Imperial soldiers with her magic, and then makes it look like she went berserk on her own, making the case to Gestahl to then officially control her with the slave crown.

While there is no force directly opposing the Empire, as with their military force that’d be suicide, there is an underground resistance called the Returners. While on a mission to investigate an Esper found in the Narshe mines, Terra is knocked unconscious and the two soldiers with her are killed. Terra is saved by the Returners, though her memory is gone. Fleeing the Empire’s forces (as well as the Narshe guardsmen who see her as a threat), Terra goes with the thief treasure hunter Locke to Castle Figaro, where they meet King Edgar, another member of the Returners. Kefka, trying to reclaim Terra, goes to Figaro Castle and threatens physical force despite the peace treaty between Figaro and the Empire, and even sets fire to the castle. Castle Figaro survives because it turns out the entire castle can transform, submerge itself, and burrow through the desert. Terra, Locke, and Edgar head to the Returners’ hideout, meeting Edgar’s long-lost brother Sabin, who’d been training as a monk over the past.

Terra is eventually convinced by the Returners to go back to Narshe to try and make peaceful contact with the Esper, to try and convince the Espers to join the Returners in the fight against the Empire. Locke is forced to delay the Empire’s forces in a one-man guerilla war against the occupation force in South Figaro, where he meets and recruits the defected General Celes, who finally could no longer bear the atrocities committed by the Empire. Terra, Edgar, Sabin, and the Returners’ leader Banon make their way to Narshe via a secret river rapid route, but Sabin falls off during a battle with the octopus fiend Ultros and is swept away. Sabin washes up on a separate part of the continent, meets the mysterious mercenary Shadow, and happens upon an Imperial camp outside the kingdom of Doma. When the honorable General Leo is called away, Kefka uses the opportunity to poison Doma’s drinking supply, wiping out nearly the entire kingdom. Sabin recruits the last swordsman of Doma, Cyan, and they try to find a way back to Narshe. Shadow eventually leaves as his contract has run out, leaving Sabin and Cyan to jump down a waterfall, wash up in the wild lands known as the Veldt, and meeting a wild boy called Gau, who helps them navigate an underwater passageway to the port town of Nikeah where they finally make it back to Narshe.

The group reunites in Narshe, and only convince the elder of Narshe to help when it’s revealed that the Empire has sent an invasion force to try to reclaim the Esper by force, and the party holds off the Empire. Afterwards, Terra attempts to communicate with the Esper, and her own Esper half is awakened. Terra goes berserk and flies off to the west. The party goes after her and finds her in the decrepit city of liars, Zozo, where she’s being taken care of by one of the few remaining Espers in this world, Ramuh. Ramuh explains a bit about Espers and the War of the Magi to the party, and asks them to go to the Empire and free the Espers trapped there while Terra recovers. Ramuh then turns into magicite, a crystallized form that Espers take when they die, and offers his and the magicites of three other Espers to the group to imbue them with magical power.

Locke, Celes and two other party members need to go to the Empire, and in order to do so they con the owner of the world’s only airship: Setzer. After being tricked into kidnapping Celes instead of the opera star Maria, Setzer loses a bet which he honors and takes them to the Empire. The party infiltrates the Magitek factory in the Empire’s capital where they find a drained Ifrit and Shiva, who also become magicite for the party. The party finds a room filled with Espers who also become magicite, and it’s then revealed that even the Magitek Engineer Cid didn’t know about the existence of magicite, and this “true form of magic” will revolutionize Magitek technology. Gestahl and Kefka show up and claim Celes was a spy all along, but Celes teleports the Empire’s forces away giving the rest of the party a chance to escape.

They return to Zozo to find that Terra has recovered her memories. The party’s next move is to go to the Sealed Cave to see if Terra can break the seal and recruit the espers. It turns out Kefka was following them, however. Terra manages to open the seal, but the espers that come out go berserk, attacking Kefka first, then the party’s airship, and finally the capitol of Vector itself.

They meet with the Empire who swears that recent events have caused them to turn over a new leaf, and that Kefka was imprisoned and would be tried for his crimes. They send Terra and Locke of the returners, Leo, Celes, and Shadow for the empire to the remote village of Thamasa where they think the Espers hid after their rampage. The residents of Thamasa turn out to be the world’s remaining mages in hiding. Two magi, an eccentric old man named Strago and his granddaughter Relm, accompany Terra and Locke to the hiding place of the Espers and convince them to give peace a chance.

But it turns out to be another trap of the Empire, as Kefka shows up and kills the Espers for their magicite. Even General Leo, who was unaware of the Empire’s motives, is killed by Kefka. Kefka goes back to the Sealed Cave to collect more magicite unhindered. In the process he and Gestahl raise the floating continent, originally the location of the Sealed Cave, and unearth the statues of the Warring Triad. The party takes the airship to the Floating Continent where they find Shadow, having been betrayed by the Empire. They finally confront Gestahl and Kefka who easily paralyze the party with magic except for Celes, who’s given a chance to rejoin Gestahl’s ambitions by executing the party. Instead, she stabs Kefka. In a rage, Kefka moves the statues around, purposefully screwing with the balance of magic that governs the world. Even Gestahl knows this is a bad idea, but when he tries to stop Kefka, all of his magic is absorbed by the Warring Triad, which in turn is being absorbed by Kefka. Gestahl is killed and the party flees to the airship, but the damage has been done. Kefka causes a world-changing apocalypse, and the airship is destroyed with the party on it.

One year later, in the World of Ruin, Kefka rules the world as a literal god of magic, free to cause whatever destruction he so pleases, and forces the world to worship him. Celes awakens on a remote island with Cid, who’d been taking care of her for the past year only for his own health to deteriorate. The two foster a relationship as Celes takes care of Cid on the island, believing they are the last two people in the world. The player can save Cid’s life or fail to. In either case, the familiar bandanna of Locke washes up on shore and Celes resolves to explore the World of Ruin to find her friends using a raft Cid had constructed. The party is still split across the world. She finds Sabin in Tzen where the two save a boy trapped in a house that Kefka destroys on a whim because one of Tzen’s citizens failed to please him. The two venture to Mobliz where they find all the adults have perished and Terra taking care of the orphans. For now, she opts to stay with the orphans and protect them from the monsters that plague the countryside. Celes and Sabin then journey to Nikeah, where they meet an Edgar-lookalike who calls himself Gerad, leading a small group of bandits to a hidden cave near South Figaro where they find the still buried Figaro Castle. Gerad reveals himself to be Edgar in disguise and that he was pretending to help the bandits to find Figaro Castle. They use Figaro Castle’s burrowing ability to go to Kohlingen, where they find Setzer drowning his sorrows at the local inn. Upon meeting Setzer and convincing him there’s hope even though his old airship is lost, Setzer has a plan. They go to Darill’s tomb, the memorial to Setzer’s old flame, whose body was never found, and unearth her old airship.

Now with wings, the group goes to gather the rest of the party. Terra rediscovers her will to fight to protect the orphans of Mobliz, and vows to stop Kefka and return. Cyan, having finally moved on from mourning the loss of his family, is on Mt. Zozo carrying on a correspondence letter with a girl from Miranda who doesn’t know her boyfriend was lost in the apocalypse. Gau is back on the Veldt, but so is either Shadow or Relm (depending on whether or not Shadow survived the floating continent), who are nursed back to health in Thamasa but disappear again. Shadow goes to the Coliseum since that’s all he knows, and Relm tries to exorcise the spirits in a haunted art gallery in Jidoor. Strago, having believed Relm was dead, turned to grief and joined the cult of Kefka. Locke is found in the Phoenix Cave having found the magicite Phoenix, which fails to bring back to life his old girlfriend Rachel, but gives him the strength to move on. Mog (a moogle whom you can recruit earlier) is back in the now-abandoned mines of Narshe, and upon recruitment he helps the party recruit the other solitary Narshe cave resident: Umaro. Finally, the party can recruit the strange mimic Gogo from the stomach of a monster on Triangle Island.

The party now reunited, they go to the Tower of Kefka, consisting of the twisted remains of Vector and the Floating Continent. They defeat the reawakened Warring Triad who are now slaves to Kefka, and eventually confront the mad god himself, who resolves to destroy the world because none of it has meaning. The party defeats Kefka, but being the literal god of magic, in the process eliminate magic from the world. The magicite goes dark and becomes regular pieces of crystal, and only Terra’s love for the orphans of Mobliz allows her to live on as a human.

The Aftermath

I don’t know of many video game worlds who are so screwed upon the game’s successful completion. They exist, but I can’t think of them. The world is in ruin, any protection the Empire might’ve provided is gone with the Empire, and magic, once a vital part of society and the ecosystem, is now gone. Just how far this extends is unclear, but Magitek for sure is now useless, the mages of Thamasa are going to have a tough time adjusting to a life as normies, and it’s even possible that magical items, like say, Potions, might cease to work effectively.

Of the remaining communities in the world, Albrook is a port town that, from the look of the world map, is now surrounded by rocks and is now useless as a port. Both Albrook and Tzen are positioned around the Tower of Kefka where monsters will only get stronger, and neither have very good defenses against the monsters which will only grow in power and in number without as many forces to stop them. It’s fortunate that Terra can use a sword and has friends because alone without magic she’ll have a tough time against the monsters around Mobliz. The once booming mining town of Narshe is now completely abandoned, its only residents being a moogle, the last of its kinds, and a yeti. Doma is a ghost of the kingdom it once was, haunted by dream-eating spirits on a solitary island likely regarded as cursed and rightfully so.

Figaro, on the other hand, is in prime condition to become the world’s newest superpower, being far ahead of the technological curve than everyone else, and a moving castle just means that the capitol of the new Figaro empire can be anywhere. On top of that, with Sabin’s return, the Figaro brothers’ joint rule means a military force consisting of gestalt engineer/monks.

The burrowing capabilities of Figaro Castle means they’ll also be on the forefront of finding alternative energy sources to replace magic, and there’s plenty of possibilities beneath the surface: coal, oil, natural gas. Perhaps they’ll even eventually find some hidden vein of magic deep beneath the earth’s crust; the raw magic material of the lifeblood of the planet that they can then find a way to drill for it on the surface.

Of course the biggest problem Figaro will have is its successors. Even if Sabin takes the celibacy route of the monk, Edgar will eventually have a problem with all those potential heirs from women he’s been sleeping around with. And neither brother will really want to rule the world as a king, they were already reluctant to rule the kingdom as is. Perhaps they can just abolish the monarchy and establish a new sort of world order, one run by democracy and trade. Perhaps Figaro can become less of a monarchy and more of a corporation. (You see where this is going.)

The Connections

First, let’s address the Crystals which are very much absent from Final Fantasy VI. At the end of FFV, the crystals were restored, but V also showed the world that shards of the crystals could grant great power. Bartz’s generation may have kept that part secret, but somewhere down the line the secret would slip. We already know that the world was experimenting with using the Crystals as potential power sources. Someone gets at those Crystals sooner or later. Fortunately, the world is strong, and while the draining/destruction of the crystals does violently shake the world, the world is strong enough to survive, and humanity presses on. Eventually the power of the crystals get focused into three beings: the Warring Triad. They then use the “job/class” function of the crystals to ridiculous lengths to enslave and power their own armies, and using the Summon function to enslave the worlds’ Espers and make new Espers out of their troops.

Let’s address the Warring Triad for a moment. Even if we do assume that these beings cropped up after the events of FFV, is there a possibility this isn’t the first time we’ve seen them? First let’s look at Fiend, or Doom from the SNES version. A giant four-armed demon with enormous wings. It bears some resemblance to the original Chaos from FFI. And the Goddess is a feminine figure, not unlike the Cloud of Darkness from FFIII. What about Demon, or Poltergeist? Well, compare that sprite to Zeromus (specifically the Zeromus EG version) and Neo Exdeath. I realize the comparison is so slight it seems forced (much like I presume a lot of this theory is for a lot of you) but just take a look. Picture Demon without that red armor and it could very well be Neo Exdeath, a humanoid form whose torso is connected to a long string of writing demonic forms. Cover all that up with the red, twisted demonic armor and it starts to become possible the two are related. If you take a look at the Zeromus EG version of the sprite. Instead of the jumbled, alien, Metroid-like mass that the Zeromus we’re used to consists of, the Zeromus EG is more defined, and has an almost mechanical appearance. Not only that, but there seems to be some sort of feminine figure lodged inside of this incarnation of Zeromus.

So here’s the proposed explanation: the Cloud of Darkness wasn’t really killed because it couldn’t be. It was more of an eldritch abomination or an abstract concept than a living being. At the end of FFV, four of the crystals are destroyed right after the bat. Presumably the remaining four crystals make up for it, but there’s still an imbalance, and that seems to be when the Cloud of Darkness likes to show up. The Cloud of Darkness possessed and twisted some poor soul the same way it possessed Xande to gather power from the crystals until the Cloud of Darkness became Goddess. Chaos was supposedly erased from existence when his time loop was destroyed back in FFI, but who’s to say it was really destroyed? It seems odd in retrospect that such a carefully planned time loop which almost relies on the Light Warriors’ actions to set in motion could be defeated so easily. Perhaps the time loop was never destroyed, but existed in its own timeline separate from the rest of the world. Chaos was just using the time to achieve enlightenment on multiple levels and grow in strength, only breaking the Groundhog Millenium curse he inflicted upon himself when he wished to. When he arrives back in the world, he finds it ripe for picking as he absorbs some of the crystal’s power himself. What about Demon? Well, Exdeath’s origin is a tree that had absorbed the hatred of spirits and demons sealed inside of it. Sure he was consumed by the Void, but not before becoming Neo Exdeath, absorbing all that power in the Void and, from what we can see in his sprite of twisting demonic forms comprising everything below the torso, is starting to let loose some of those beings sealed inside him. Even after being supposedly destroyed and swallowed by the Void, all that hatred concentrated in one place would surely draw Zeromus, who by his own words would exist as long as hatred does. Zeromus inhabits the many hate-filled hearts sealed inside Exdeath and their power combined lets them break free of the void and be reborn as Demon (though at this point the name Poltergeist makes far more sense in my opinion). Demon, Fiend, and Goddess all gather as much power from the crystals as possible and then wage an all-out war against each other. We’re told they sealed themselves to prevent the world’s destruction, but really we have no reason to believe that bit isn’t just part of the mythology and some force of good managed to seal them up. Perhaps some unnamed heroes, or perhaps their power overloaded and they sealed themselves by accident. When we meet the Warring Triad at the end of the game, they’re powerful, but they’re just shells of their former glory, having been drained and enslaved by Kefka.

As for the Espers, we know at least some of these beings existed before: Bahamut, Odin, etcetera. But there’s nothing to suggest that more Espers weren’t created during the battle between the Warring Triad. There certainly is a wider variety of Summons than in previous games, and those are just what the party manages to collect. It’s implied that far more were collected by Kefka even before the events of Thamasa. During the Warring Triad’s battle, they likely wouldn’t willingly be the servants of three apocalyptic forces duking it out, so they’d have to be enslaved via Summon magic. The magicite the Espers become is likely somehow derived from or at least modeled after the shards of the destroyed Crystals of FFV. They are the last source of magic in the world, and can bestow power upon their wielders just like the Crystal Shards from FFV. Whichever Espers survived the battle between the Warring Triads and didn’t become magicite would then have to survive the War of the Magi which was bloody on every side, and if they survived that they could live in the world past the Sealed Gate, but even then Gestahl’s actions would reduce a lot of surviving Espers to mere magicite. Then by the end of the game, even the magicite is now defunct as magic is erased from the world.

We remember the second moon and how it’d grown into an entirely different world, then merged back with the “original” world. But likely there’s still some trace of it in the real world. We’re not given any indication that the world of the Espers is anything more than a small village well-sealed from the rest of the world, and then the floating continent is raised. This ‘World of the Espers,’ the ‘Sealed Cave’, and the ‘Floating Continent’ are what currently remains of the second moon. At the end even all of that is absorbed into Kefka’s tower, which collapses when Kefka himself is destroyed.

Other minor connections include both the presence and presumed extinction of the Moogle race, as there’s only one surviving Moogle that we know of. The steampunk-style industrial revolution, while present on a small scale in past games, never reached the level it does in FF6, and from here it only gets more advanced. Most of the sentient races are gone, with one or two rare surviving members (like the Werewolf thief). Likely these races served in the war between the Warring Triad or the War of the Magi and were either wiped out or converted into Espers (and therefore then wiped out).

KillianHawkeye
2011-11-17, 05:51 PM
Are you not including FF12 or FF13, either? Actually, FF12 is specifically set in the same world as FF Tactics, so it wouldn't really fit with the rest anyway.

DiscipleofBob
2011-11-17, 06:12 PM
Eventually, after I get the original 10, I might attempt those two as well. But you're right, the Ivalice ones don't fit as well since they're their own universe and mythology. Doesn't mean I won't eventually make the attempt though.

Tengu_temp
2011-11-17, 06:41 PM
I have a hard time believing that even the FF games that are supposed to be connected actually take place in the same world (Tactics and 12, for example), much less that there is some kind of a big Zelda-esque storyline going on.

Tiki Snakes
2011-11-17, 06:43 PM
I could see a big zelda-esque storyline going on. Given that they clearly just make up whatever stuff they fancy and then re-mix the 'secret timeline' afterwards anyway.

Not having played any of the early ones there's not much I can comment on so far, but whats there to read seems fair enough and interesting enough that I may well check back.

tyckspoon
2011-11-18, 01:46 AM
Eventually, after I get the original 10, I might attempt those two as well. But you're right, the Ivalice ones don't fit as well since they're their own universe and mythology. Doesn't mean I won't eventually make the attempt though.

Tactics is.. weird, because the treasure items and exploration sites make direct references to every game released prior to it. If you disregard those you can probably fit all the Ivalice games to each other without too much trouble, although it gets weird to slot them to the rest of the series. With them, you have to go through some really strange premises to make Ivalice work with everything else (it becomes an alternate dimension that can take influences from the other FF worlds or something..which I guess isn't too far out there with Tactic Advance's magic-book-world-Ivalice.)

Feytalist
2011-11-18, 02:07 AM
Heh, I read this back in the day. It was pretty well done. There was an essay on the life force and magic connecting all the games together and how it evolves as well. Was that yours too?

DiscipleofBob
2011-11-18, 05:31 PM
I have a hard time believing that even the FF games that are supposed to be connected actually take place in the same world (Tactics and 12, for example), much less that there is some kind of a big Zelda-esque storyline going on.

Then I'll consider attempting to convince you a challenge. :smalltongue: Seriously though, skeptics can make the best critics, so comments you have are welcome if you like.


I could see a big zelda-esque storyline going on. Given that they clearly just make up whatever stuff they fancy and then re-mix the 'secret timeline' afterwards anyway.

Not having played any of the early ones there's not much I can comment on so far, but whats there to read seems fair enough and interesting enough that I may well check back.

Yeah, I figured that until I get to 6 and 7 a lot of people would be lost. I just don't want to rush my way through the earlier games just to get to the meat.


Tactics is.. weird, because the treasure items and exploration sites make direct references to every game released prior to it. If you disregard those you can probably fit all the Ivalice games to each other without too much trouble, although it gets weird to slot them to the rest of the series. With them, you have to go through some really strange premises to make Ivalice work with everything else (it becomes an alternate dimension that can take influences from the other FF worlds or something..which I guess isn't too far out there with Tactic Advance's magic-book-world-Ivalice.)

I do have a theory regarding it, at least as far as the references go. Now I'm still not going to try and figure out exactly where Tactics rest on the timeline, but since the locations of said "referential" sites isn't specific, it is possible that the sites in the game are either I) the actual sites they reference, II) merely named for what in-universe must be the local mythology, similar to us having an Mount Olympus IRL but there certainly are no gods sitting on top of it, or III) the places you explore in Tactics may actually predate the supposed referential sites, possibly being the original while the latter might be the actual reference. We'll possibly cover this more later.


Heh, I read this back in the day. It was pretty well done. There was an essay on the life force and magic connecting all the games together and how it evolves as well. Was that yours too?

Possibly. I don't think I've ever written a formal essay on the subject, but I have definitely theorized on that topic on several occasions. The connection between magic will eventually come into play in this theory as well.


I posted the information for Final Fantasy 3 now, and there's a lot of it, mostly because despite being the most unknown of the main games, it starts a lot of important trends to keep track of.

Starwulf
2011-11-18, 06:34 PM
That’s probably why the crystals aren’t mentioned. They’re probably well-hidden, and neither side wants to destroy the world so they would be kept out of the fray as much as possible. The Emperor has every reason to leave the crystals untouched so the world he wishes to rule over stays intact.


I have to point out a glaring flaw here. If you're considering Dissidia to be at all canon, then your idea that the Emperor wants a world to rule over/doesn't want to destroy it, Dissidia pretty much disagrees with you. In that one, he is actively trying to work against even Chaos, in order to completely annihilate the entire universe, so I don't see why he wouldn't want to utilize the power of the crystals in his actual game, even if it meant destroying the world.

ThePhantom
2011-11-18, 06:38 PM
I have to point out a glaring flaw here. If you're considering Dissidia to be at all canon, then your idea that the Emperor wants a world to rule over/doesn't want to destroy it, Dissidia pretty much disagrees with you. In that one, he is actively trying to work against even Chaos, in order to completely annihilate the entire universe, so I don't see why he wouldn't want to utilize the power of the crystals in his actual game, even if it meant destroying the world.

The Emperor didn't want to destroy the universe, he wanted his enemies dead, and Chaos overthrown so he could rule the universe.

Starwulf
2011-11-18, 06:51 PM
The Emperor didn't want to destroy the universe, he wanted his enemies dead, and Chaos overthrown so he could rule the universe.

That's not really the gist I got of playing through it, it seemed to me that he wanted to completely annihilate the universe, and then recreate it with him as the sole ruler. Which would mean that in FF2, he wouldn't have minded utilizing the crystals to completely destroy the world, as long as he could then recreate it and rule over it.

I guess I should have further specified in my first post that he not only wanted to destroy it, but wanted to recreate it and rule over it.

DiscipleofBob
2011-11-18, 07:21 PM
That's not really the gist I got of playing through it, it seemed to me that he wanted to completely annihilate the universe, and then recreate it with him as the sole ruler. Which would mean that in FF2, he wouldn't have minded utilizing the crystals to completely destroy the world, as long as he could then recreate it and rule over it.

I guess I should have further specified in my first post that he not only wanted to destroy it, but wanted to recreate it and rule over it.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here as well.

True, I'm leaving out Dissidia stuff for the most part, but everything I've seen in Dissidia and in FF2 itself suggests otherwise. You can't rule the world when it's been reduced to nothingness. The Emperor's primary motivation was absolute rule of everything and subjugation over everyone. He would eliminate anyone who dare opposed his rule, but unlike other villains like the Cloud of Darkness and Ultimecia, he never wanted to destroy everything, just everything that dared stand against him.

In the Dissidia I played, his grand master plan involved manipulating the powers that be so that he would be the last man standing.

From the section on the FFWiki regarding Dissidia...

The Emperor's ultimate goal is for both gods to perish and their warriors with them, leaving him to survive their destruction due to the power of his Crystal and rule over existence unopposed.

In Dissidia, the only reason he wanted to wipe out both gods is so that he wouldn't have any competition.

Brother Oni
2011-11-19, 02:35 PM
Tactics is.. weird, because the treasure items and exploration sites make direct references to every game released prior to it. If you disregard those you can probably fit all the Ivalice games to each other without too much trouble, although it gets weird to slot them to the rest of the series. With them, you have to go through some really strange premises to make Ivalice work with everything else (it becomes an alternate dimension that can take influences from the other FF worlds or something..which I guess isn't too far out there with Tactic Advance's magic-book-world-Ivalice.)

According to the official FF12 guide, FF12 pre-dates the first FFT game by approximately 1200 years. The first Tactics advanced game is entirely unrelated (as you said it's a magic book world), but the second game apparently takes place somewhere around the events of FF12.

Vagrant Story is odd as it could be really far ahead or really early and there's little evidence to place it, although enough references to link it to Ivalice.

Dr.Epic
2011-11-19, 03:24 PM
How do you explain the constantly shifting geography and world maps?

DiscipleofBob
2011-11-19, 05:04 PM
How do you explain the constantly shifting geography and world maps?

Touched on this in the OP, but to be more specific...


Hundreds, possibly thousands of years pass between each game, allowing for gradual geologic shifts and shifting politics.
The world of Final Fantasy is very volatile geologically speaking, especially compared to our own. For the majority of the timeline, the world is full of magical forces that accelerate geological forces.
Not all the world-changing apocalypses are prevented or even documented. See Final Fantasy 6 for a prime example of how the world's geology can drastically change overnight.
The elemental crystals which govern the balance of the world could also play a large role here. We already know they can be moved, and that alone could have huge impacts on the shifting world.
As long as we let a substantial amount of time pass, global politics along with geological forces allow for the rise and fall of entire civilizations (especially when those civilizations end up consisting of one town)

OracleofWuffing
2011-11-19, 05:09 PM
Actually, Final Fantasy 4 The After Years just comes out and makes it official that the first six (at the very least) all take place in the same universe, just on different planets.

DiscipleofBob
2011-11-19, 06:41 PM
Actually, Final Fantasy 4 The After Years just comes out and makes it official that the first six (at the very least) all take place in the same universe, just on different planets.

As much as I love the After Years, that's probably going to have to be one of the points where I'll refute the canon. I'll touch more on it when I type up the FF4 portion, but my basic explanation for After Years is that most of what the Creator says is complete bs, just insane ramblings from his degenerated mind. If the bosses summoned by the crystals are indeed derived from the memories of the crystals, it's completely possible that (at least from 3 back), they all came from the crystals of the same planet.

OracleofWuffing
2011-11-20, 02:44 AM
Well, I didn't care much for The After Years, so I don't mind much someone saying that something in there is just an insane rambling. :smalltongue:

I take it you've seen the Final Fantasy 4 Settei Shiryou Hen translation? I personally like the fluff that a guy at-least-named-after Minwu from Final Fantasy 2 told Leviathan to cram it so Mysidia could prosper, even if there's nothing in the game itself about it.

Just glancing over things, but are you just running off of the original games there as they were originally written, or do you want to take in to mind some of the stuff future translations added? For example, in the iPhone/DS version of Final Fantasy 3, the Light Warriors do have names, and the ending for them is a bit different- though that doesn't really change the point you were making with the comparison between them and the warriors in the first game. There's also the whole bit about the kid survivor in the Dragoon Town of FF2 that got named in translation.

DiscipleofBob
2011-11-20, 09:01 AM
I take it you've seen the Final Fantasy 4 Settei Shiryou Hen translation? I personally like the fluff that a guy at-least-named-after Minwu from Final Fantasy 2 told Leviathan to cram it so Mysidia could prosper, even if there's nothing in the game itself about it.

I've not actually seen this before, but it does sound interesting.



Just glancing over things, but are you just running off of the original games there as they were originally written, or do you want to take in to mind some of the stuff future translations added? For example, in the iPhone/DS version of Final Fantasy 3, the Light Warriors do have names, and the ending for them is a bit different- though that doesn't really change the point you were making with the comparison between them and the warriors in the first game. There's also the whole bit about the kid survivor in the Dragoon Town of FF2 that got named in translation.

For the most part, I'm going with the originals (though in 2 and 3 I do have to fill in some holes with the wiki since I never quite beat them), though as far as I know the few changes they did make between remakes don't actually affect any parts of the theory, so either way it should work.

Brother Oni
2011-11-21, 08:18 AM
Touched on this in the OP, but to be more specific...


Hundreds, possibly thousands of years pass between each game, allowing for gradual geologic shifts and shifting politics.
As long as we let a substantial amount of time pass, global politics along with geological forces allow for the rise and fall of entire civilizations (especially when those civilizations end up consisting of one town)


It's going to have to be at least 1000+ years for FFX as the ruins of Zanarkand and other places still persist after the Machina War which was approximately this time ago.

Mind you, between Sin and the Yevon religion, advancement has been pretty much kept static all that time.

Kobold-Bard
2011-11-21, 05:16 PM
I've seen theories that FF8 & FF3 are the same world, FF8 a long time in the future, so that might help. Do they have to be sequential in your theory?

And isn't there word of god (which I know you plan to ignore) that says X-2 is the precursor for FFVII? Are you planning to incorporate that?

ziratha
2011-11-21, 10:31 PM
Now I am a bit rusty, but as I recall, in point 1, you say that the four heroes are "hailed as heroes". But as I recall, after breaking the loop, nobody remembers anything, so they can't very well become super stars.

Seerow
2011-11-28, 12:15 PM
There hasn't been any update here in 2 weeks, are you still planning on continuing/updating this?

DiscipleofBob
2011-11-28, 02:34 PM
It's going to have to be at least 1000+ years for FFX as the ruins of Zanarkand and other places still persist after the Machina War which was approximately this time ago.

Mind you, between Sin and the Yevon religion, advancement has been pretty much kept static all that time.

That still works with this theory, yes.


I've seen theories that FF8 & FF3 are the same world, FF8 a long time in the future, so that might help. Do they have to be sequential in your theory?

And isn't there word of god (which I know you plan to ignore) that says X-2 is the precursor for FFVII? Are you planning to incorporate that?

This is the first I've heard of either of those theories. FF8 will come after FF3, just with several games in between. And if there is in fact word of god that says FFX-2 is the precursor to FFVII I would love to see the original source. If it does exist I will probably still ignore it, but I'm interested nontheless.


Now I am a bit rusty, but as I recall, in point 1, you say that the four heroes are "hailed as heroes". But as I recall, after breaking the loop, nobody remembers anything, so they can't very well become super stars.

Thank you for pointing this out. I've looked this up and found conflicting sources. The official FFwiki says that no one remembers any details of the ordeal, including the Light Warriors themselves, but I've played at least two versions where the Light Warriors are hailed as heroes in the end despite this perplexing time paradox. If we take the FFwiki as correct, then there's no possible way we can determine what the state of the world is at the end of FFI and therefore no connections/contradictions we can draw between FFI and FFII. In fact, it would be easy to make the claim that the time paradox results in the world of FFII and there'd be no real way to disprove it.

For the time being, unless further points are brought up regarding this, I'm going to assume that, due to the ridiculous time paradox, the Light Warriors do make it back and are heroes, the previous events did happen but finally stop happening as part of the time loop, and Garland is nothing but a loyal knight since the most recent version of him was never part of the time loop.


There hasn't been any update here in 2 weeks, are you still planning on continuing/updating this?

Ask and you shall receive. FFIV is up.

Thanksgiving had me on hold in a lot of areas, and each new game requires a lot of additional research. Expect slow updates in the future, but I do intend to finish this. Probably the most difficult update for me to do is FFV since I'm the least familiar with it.

Kobold-Bard
2011-11-28, 02:41 PM
...

This is the first I've heard of either of those theories. FF8 will come after FF3, just with several games in between. And if there is in fact word of god that says FFX-2 is the precursor to FFVII I would love to see the original source. If it does exist I will probably still ignore it, but I'm interested nontheless.

...

The FFIII/VIII one is all quite bad, it's basis is that the world maps are similar, the key being that the FF3 Floating Continent is in the same place as the Underwater Research Lab, both of which contain Bhamut in their respective games (the lab being the remnants of the FC when it dropped out the sky). There's a few other things, but it isn't great.

The FFX-2/VII was (I believe) from an interview in the FFX-2 Ultimania. In the Japanese version of the game there's extra missions involving Shinra working with Rin to harness the Farplane and make it into a functional energy source, which he says will take generations. The interview mentions Shinra's descendants succeeding and developing space travel, ending up on FFVII's world, setting up the Shin-Ra Electric Power Company & doing a similar thing with that world's Lifestream. Not canon, but a lot closer than most such theories.

DiscipleofBob
2011-11-28, 02:58 PM
The FFIII/VIII one is all quite bad, it's basis is that the world maps are similar, the key being that the FF3 Floating Continent is in the same place as the Underwater Research Lab, both of which contain Bhamut in their respective games (the lab being the remnants of the FC when it dropped out the sky). There's a few other things, but it isn't great.

The FFX-2/VII was (I believe) from an interview in the FFX-2 Ultimania. In the Japanese version of the game there's extra missions involving Shinra working with Rin to harness the Farplane and make it into a functional energy source, which he says will take generations. The interview mentions Shinra's descendants succeeding and developing space travel, ending up on FFVII's world, setting up the Shin-Ra Electric Power Company & doing a similar thing with that world's Lifestream. Not canon, but a lot closer than most such theories.

An interesting theory. VII will take place before X in this timeline, but it's interesting nontheless. If you could link to the full thing I'd love to take a look. I did catch Shinra's name as a reference at least to FF7 way back when.

tyckspoon
2011-11-28, 03:29 PM
The FFX-2/VII was (I believe) from an interview in the FFX-2 Ultimania. In the Japanese version of the game there's extra missions involving Shinra working with Rin to harness the Farplane and make it into a functional energy source, which he says will take generations.

I don't know about direct word-of-god, but even in the English version there's heavy implications; the biggest ones would be that Shinra the character tells you about how he thinks the Farplane could become an energy source, one that would potentially power a giant, unsleeping city (which we are naturally lead to believe refers to Midgar powered by the Shin-Ra company), and how FFX/-2's Spheres and FF7's Materia are functionally the same thing- orbs formed of something from the planet that can contain memories and powers. FF7 uses much less materia-based technology, but presumably that's just because they figured out better alternatives.. Spira's sphere-based cameras and communicators are pretty crappy.

Karoht
2011-11-29, 03:12 PM
I don't know about direct word-of-god, but even in the English version there's heavy implications; the biggest ones would be that Shinra the character tells you about how he thinks the Farplane could become an energy source, one that would potentially power a giant, unsleeping city (which we are naturally lead to believe refers to Midgar powered by the Shin-Ra company), and how FFX/-2's Spheres and FF7's Materia are functionally the same thing- orbs formed of something from the planet that can contain memories and powers. FF7 uses much less materia-based technology, but presumably that's just because they figured out better alternatives.. Spira's sphere-based cameras and communicators are pretty crappy.

Interesting justification between the two. I casually propose the reverse.
FF7 had a much more materia/mako dependant society. Eventually they built up Zanarkand, and it was ruined by Sin.
The Sphere-based technology is crappy because it was salvaged.
Though the inverse is (more) probable in that Sphere-based could be an earlier tech preceeding Materia-based gizmos.

Zanarkand ruined and the surviving people is already post-apocalpytic, but to think that it might have come from an even greater society (subjective of course) makes for some interesting discussion as well. There is also the possibility that the Lifestream somehow lead to the creation of the Farplane. Again, also interesting.

I've never really been a fan of FF for it's continuity, even the hints that some things are tied to one another in some extremely subtle way, but it does make for some excellent nostalgia-fueled-tinfoil hat discussion.

J-H
2011-11-29, 08:18 PM
I've beaten FF5 several times, so I'm happy to help with any questions you've got about it.

No brains
2011-12-01, 03:23 PM
I have to say, I'm digging this so far.

The constantly waxing moon could even be the future residence of the dark (or light) crystals in FFV, as that game has an entirely separate world that was once half of the first world that has its own set of crystals. A problem here is the origin of void energy and Exodus, which are used in part as the reason for the separation of the worlds.

They way I see Dissidia, having never played it, is that Cosmos and Chaos are just done screwing around with the planet and taking their best weapons (read: warriors) directly to one another.

Kato
2011-12-02, 03:38 AM
... As someone who's familiar with about any incarnation of the Final Fantasy franchise I still have to say... no, just no. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind people making up fan theories about things and you can have your fun but... it's pretty much clear all stories take place in different universes and axcept for some later weirdly implemented things (looking at you, Dawn of Souls) they are in different universes and... well, that's it. Sure, you can think of all kinds of ways to 'connect' the games but... :smallsigh: No, I think I'd rather have no part in it. (Heck, even looking at the crystals! So, we got eight in V, 16 or something in IV, four in III, four orbs in I.... and they get broken in V and... urgh, shutting up now.)

Starwulf
2011-12-02, 06:26 AM
... As someone who's familiar with about any incarnation of the Final Fantasy franchise I still have to say... no, just no. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind people making up fan theories about things and you can have your fun but... it's pretty much clear all stories take place in different universes and axcept for some later weirdly implemented things (looking at you, Dawn of Souls) they are in different universes and... well, that's it. Sure, you can think of all kinds of ways to 'connect' the games but... :smallsigh: No, I think I'd rather have no part in it. (Heck, even looking at the crystals! So, we got eight in V, 16 or something in IV, four in III, four orbs in I.... and they get broken in V and... urgh, shutting up now.)

I kinda feel the same way myself. Honestly, my real issue with this thread, is the fact that at least twice thus far, the OP has been presented with Word of God statements that either out-right refute his idea, or at least completely disagrees with how he goes about it, and his response both times if "Yeah, I'm not going to pay attention to that". >< It's Word of God for a reason, ya know?

Other then that, the thread is a very interesting read, and whlie I disagree with the overall goal(for the reason above, and the simple fact that I just don't believe they are), i'll still follow the thread the entire way through, as some of the OPs reasoning's are sound, and provide some interesting food for thought.

DiscipleofBob
2011-12-02, 10:24 AM
... As someone who's familiar with about any incarnation of the Final Fantasy franchise I still have to say... no, just no. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind people making up fan theories about things and you can have your fun but... it's pretty much clear all stories take place in different universes and axcept for some later weirdly implemented things (looking at you, Dawn of Souls) they are in different universes and... well, that's it. Sure, you can think of all kinds of ways to 'connect' the games but... :smallsigh: No, I think I'd rather have no part in it. (Heck, even looking at the crystals! So, we got eight in V, 16 or something in IV, four in III, four orbs in I.... and they get broken in V and... urgh, shutting up now.)

Actually, so far the crystal count has remained consistent. There are eight in FF1 (one in each shrine and one in the possession of each Light Warrior), not mentioned in FF2 so irrelevant, eight in FF3 (four in the main world and four in the World of Darkness final dungeon), eight in FF4 (not including those on the second moon for reasons stated in the theory), and eight in FFV (four in World I and four in World II), and, while I'm still ironing out the details of the FFV crystals, they won't really be needed after this game.

But either way, criticism is always welcome, especially from the skeptics. The more holes that are poked in the theory, the more airtight I can hope to make it.


I kinda feel the same way myself. Honestly, my real issue with this thread, is the fact that at least twice thus far, the OP has been presented with Word of God statements that either out-right refute his idea, or at least completely disagrees with how he goes about it, and his response both times if "Yeah, I'm not going to pay attention to that". >< It's Word of God for a reason, ya know?

Other then that, the thread is a very interesting read, and whlie I disagree with the overall goal(for the reason above, and the simple fact that I just don't believe they are), i'll still follow the thread the entire way through, as some of the OPs reasoning's are sound, and provide some interesting food for thought.

I can see being irked about refuting Word of God. I do take into account everything that has and will be presented. In some cases, I do have to simply ignore Word of God, but I always consider WoG statements as possibilities and "what if they were true."

However, I must point out that sometimes (not any specific example here) Word of God itself is just plain wrong. The phenomenon rarely happens, and when it does only with older franchises, but sometimes the author of a created work makes a statement that flat out doesn't make sense or refutes details their own work presents. The best example of such a case is in the Marvel and DC comics, where there are some plots, while considered to be canon, are just downright silly and contradict established details about characters. I'm not going to provide any specific FF-related examples (at least not unless I can think of some precise ones) since I don't want to start a potential flame war and derail the thread.

Either way, whether you agree with it or not, I'm glad you at least find it an interesting read.

I'm almost done with the section on FFV. There's just some details I need to figure out involving an ending I've never actually seen. :smallredface:

Kato
2011-12-02, 10:33 AM
Actually, so far the crystal count has remained consistent. There are eight in FF1 (one in each shrine and one in the possession of each Light Warrior), not mentioned in FF2 so irrelevant, eight in FF3 (four in the main world and four in the World of Darkness final dungeon), eight in FF4 (not including those on the second moon for reasons stated in the theory), and eight in FFV (four in World I and four in World II), and, while I'm still ironing out the details of the FFV crystals, they won't really be needed after this game.

[...]

I'm almost done with the section on FFV. There's just some details I need to figure out involving an ending I've never actually seen. :smallredface:

Hm... okay, from that point of view I guess there were eight consistenr crystals... some were no crystals and some where in another dimension and some were not there even though they were just on the moon .... :smallwink:
Still, I stand by my point it might be a fun endeavor but I won't take any of it for truth. I guess it's still fun enough to read :smallbiggrin:


Hm... as for the ending of V... I almost forgot about that but yeah, there are four after the story ends, though I'm not quite sure how many there were in the beginning... might be there were four split into eight or none at all... but that would be weird. I guess there were four -> eight -> four. And they still serve a purpose, just like the ones in I and presumably III.

OracleofWuffing
2011-12-02, 04:54 PM
Remember, if you don't have a link to Battle on the Big Bridge when you discuss Gilgamesh and how important he really is, the dedicated FF5 fanbase will cut you in half, eight times, with a Nuclear sword. Assuming they don't chain-loop Bahamut against you indefinitely. Assuming they don't remove your immunity to instant death attacks and kill you with instant death.

... Dang I love that game.

Devonix
2011-12-02, 07:59 PM
Wait I thought this thread was about trying to cobble together a timeline by making up our own and not in anyway trying to imply that the games are Actually connected.

DiscipleofBob
2011-12-02, 08:47 PM
Wait I thought this thread was about trying to cobble together a timeline by making up our own and not in anyway trying to imply that the games are Actually connected.

A little of column A, a little of column B. I don't think Square would ever ratify my claims of course, but half the fun of fan theories is believing that there's some sort of hidden truth to them.

Devonix
2011-12-02, 08:56 PM
A little of column A, a little of column B. I don't think Square would ever ratify my claims of course, but half the fun of fan theories is believing that there's some sort of hidden truth to them.

Gotcha. As long as they stay as "Fan Theories" The're alternate universes except in a few instances IE the "Ivalice Chronicles" which were created to be a single universe the two FFIV games X and X-2 XIII and XIII-2. Some games may connect to each other but the series doesn't connect them all and I've seen too many threads degenerate when people claim to have "Proof" that they are all connected.

DiscipleofBob
2011-12-03, 10:37 PM
Final Fantasy V is up.

Once again, I welcome criticism and suggestions. This is the game where I've most likely missed an important detail related to either unseen connections or contradictions in the theory.

Traab
2011-12-03, 11:22 PM
You know, 2 and 5 are the only ff games I havent at least tried to play. Isnt 5 one of the job class games? I never really liked them for the most part. I liked ff3 for the ds and its job classes though.

OracleofWuffing
2011-12-04, 01:44 AM
FF5 is a Job/Class game, yeah. Basically, what it added was the ability to take a skill from one class and put it on another (it gets more complex and strategic than that, but that's the premise). So, you could have a White Mage that has the unarmed attack damage of a Monk, or a Summoner that can do an attack to recover MP.

Doesn't change much if anything at all, but in FF5, Ifrit was a minor plot point. He's trapped in the Library of the Ancients, and was responsible for destroying demons that possessed books there (presumedly, they're the ones that trapped him). That's where half of the Sealed Tome is, with the other half on the other world. Ramuh and Shiva, well, they exist but for little reason. Leviathan and Bahamut have a role here, but looks like you'll get to that later.Shinryu and Omega, too. And Gogo!

For what it's worth, the splitting of the two worlds was done to contain the void. It was a conscious decision at the time, and if the OVA-sequel is considered, you can actually split the worlds again by controlling the crystals.

Shame on you for not jumping on the dragoon situation. INSERT LAUGH TRACK HERE.
Tycoon's the kingdom with the last Wind Drake, and our last game just showed us how a major kingdom was letting the industrial pseudorevolution replace those with airships.

Word of God is that Gilgamesh (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgZsvJZ_ivg),
Who winds up being lost in the Void by the end of the game, is the same Gilgamesh that you see in just about every other FF game, and his various appearances elsewhere are explained just because of his fate in this game.

Kato
2011-12-04, 06:13 AM
You know, 2 and 5 are the only ff games I havent at least tried to play. Isnt 5 one of the job class games? I never really liked them for the most part. I liked ff3 for the ds and its job classes though.

Yeah, V had a job system. The best so far, imho. I like III and X-2's well enough (and XIII's if you want to include that) but the ability to combine the abilities of separate job classes to increase their synergy was awesome and I wish they'd do it again.
II was great too, though it had some balancing issues sadly :smallfrown:



Word of God is that Gilgamesh (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgZsvJZ_ivg),
Who winds up being lost in the Void by the end of the game, is the same Gilgamesh that you see in just about every other FF game, and his various appearances elsewhere are explained just because of his fate in this game.

Yeah, though since Gilgamesh dies in the game how he can end up a dimension traveler is kind of foggy. But yeah, he's the one established to be incarnate in all the dimensions of the game, possibly Gogo too, but I'd not include Omega in that list.


As for the summons... it's reeeeeally difficult. In I iirc we have the first instance on Bahamut appearing, though not as a summon and in II we get Leviathan but again, no summon. Hardly any interaction (on the big scale)
Only in III Bahamut appears again and is the only summon with a plot relevance, while in IV Leviathan is kind of critical to the plot and a few others influence things kind of in the story (also, here are the Dark Summons guarding ultimate weapons in the Moon)
V again has at least... three plot relevant summons: Ifrit, minor, and Leviathan and Bahamut also not that big. You HAVE to get Ifrit I think the sole summon in the game you can not avoid getting sine it's a macGuffin to open a path. Leviathan is I guess supposed to be unavoidable but they screwed up a bit and you can just walk away from it. You do see it, though. And Bahamut you will definitely see but fighting is optional again. The latter is sealed under/in a peninsula for the most part of the game, btw.
In VI of course all summons are kind of weirdly treated and few have a special notion, where VII excludes all summons of any importance whatsoever. Once you get to VIII things get interesting again, of course.

OracleofWuffing
2011-12-04, 11:04 AM
If I recall correctly, the current thing that they're going with on all of the $foo-Omega-$bar out there, is that they're all from the future and/or an alternate dimension where a super-advanced military country got too super-advanced and made an interdimensional weapon that was too powerful to control and gained maniacal sentience. I don't think they're all the same, but I'm under the impression they all came from the same place/time/spaghetti.

Odin's also a legendary great king of the past sealed in the basement of a castle, while we're at it. It's not plot-related, though. The thing that made Leviathan and Bahamut worth a mention there is that, plot-wise, they're servants to the folks that sealed the slabs. I don't think they specify if that's a willing servitude or not, though.

Edit: Oh! Almost forgot! Whisperweed! :smalltongue:

DiscipleofBob
2011-12-05, 09:36 AM
All right, replies to work through! This is some good material too.

Once again, I definitely need to go back and write more about the summons (and similar reoccuring characters like Gilgamesh), but to do that now would be problematic until I at least get the basic information between each game down. Bahamut's role was mentioned when it was to show the possible connection between each game.

As for the Void, the idea that the splitting of the world was done to contain the Void doesn't really make sense with me. If the Void is truly what it implies, and that is the lack of everything and nothing at the same time, then it's less of raw energy and more of an abstract concept that happens to be manipulatable via complex metaphysics. You can't contain the Void between two worlds any more than you can contain all of space and time by putting them between two planets. What WAS contained, or rather sealed, was the Interdimensional Rift: one possible source to draw the power of the Void from, but in order to access it, Exdeath needs to literally rip the worlds apart by the seams.

I hadn't made the connection between Tycoon and the Dragoons. If that's the case, then V represents a rare period in history where the Dragoons aren't completely screwed over. Kudos to that.

Gilgamesh shouldn't be hard to draw connections to once I get around to the Summon section, if for no other reason than the majority of his appearances are just cameos.

Omega I'd always assumed to be one of the long-forgotten relics of the past ancient advanced civilization that always seem to show up in these games. I'd even draw a connection between it and the infamous Warmech from FFI. I'm not sure if I'd relate it to the various appearances of Omega Weapon in later games though, but we'll see once we get to that.

Whisperweed? :smallconfused: You mean the long-range communicator plants? What about them?

OracleofWuffing
2011-12-05, 11:40 AM
Whisperweed? :smallconfused: You mean the long-range communicator plants? What about them?
It's nothing major, but the same thing was used in Final Fantasy IV for Edward to say "I'm helping!" to the Dark Elf. Well, one or two translations called it a Twin Harp, but it was supposed to be Whisperweed, and we'll see that confirmed when you get to The After Years.

DiscipleofBob
2011-12-12, 01:28 PM
Final Fantasy VI is up, and finally had to use that second post. Here's hoping I can fit up to FFX on that second post.

KillianHawkeye
2011-12-15, 08:50 AM
Man, this is getting pretty good! :smallbiggrin:

darkhunterjag
2012-07-20, 02:02 AM
What happened to this thread? Did the OP end up finishing his theory?

DiscipleofBob
2012-07-20, 08:14 AM
What happened to this thread? Did the OP end up finishing his theory?

I wasn't sure this would count as thread necromancy or not.

I can still finish this though.

zorenathres
2012-07-20, 03:20 PM
I would like to think I'm a FF fan, played I, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, & 10, & my favorite one has to be 6. X-2 really turned me away from the franchise, but by that time I was pretty disappointed with 10 as well.

Anyway, though I disagree with your overall theory that these stories all take place on the same world, I did enjoy reading through it. I was always under the impression that there were a handful of worlds (one of which is named Gaia? which was then refluffed to become more akin to the lifestream), & so some stories connect & some don't.

Kudos for making the effort though,

my memory is not that great, but think many of the games give references to the name of their world (or what the locals called it), & that can give you a lot of clues as to which stories connect.

The biggest problem i see with any theory about these games being connected, is that they did not have that grand of a vision when they started (though it certainly grew). & it appears to me that they simply took elements & themes from previous games that they wanted & made a new product, later claiming "these are all related but on different worlds".

Traab
2012-07-20, 06:43 PM
Ugh I hated x and x-2. Got about halfway through 10 and barely got past the first dungeon or two with x-2. X-2 was like a mix of fanservice and fashion show with a bit of combat thrown in. Constant cinematics of pretty anime girls changing into different sexy clothes.

Nekura
2012-07-20, 07:07 PM
The thing about tactics is Cloud was a playable character so if you have it the same world with huge time gaps between games you need some explanation for how he could survive that long.

tyckspoon
2012-07-20, 08:34 PM
The thing about tactics is Cloud was a playable character so if you have it the same world with huge time gaps between games you need some explanation for how he could survive that long.

The way Cloud gets into Tactics leaves tons of wiggle room for making up an explanation. Maybe he got lost in the Lifestream again and that machine fished him out. Maybe the power of the Zodiac Stone was enough to pull him across time. Maybe it's not *actually* Cloud, and the machine and the Stone just gave form and life to a Lifestream-memory of a hero of the past. Between the vague and stretchy parts of FFVII and the *really* vague and stretchy parts of Tactics, there's more than enough space for Cloud to cameo and not have it hurt anything.

oblivion6
2012-07-22, 04:36 AM
Ugh I hated x and x-2. Got about halfway through 10 and barely got past the first dungeon or two with x-2. X-2 was like a mix of fanservice and fashion show with a bit of combat thrown in. Constant cinematics of pretty anime girls changing into different sexy clothes.

personally i liked them both. X had a better story in my opinion but i do like what they did with x-2

Kato
2012-07-22, 07:32 AM
Ugh I hated x and x-2. Got about halfway through 10 and barely got past the first dungeon or two with x-2. X-2 was like a mix of fanservice and fashion show with a bit of combat thrown in. Constant cinematics of pretty anime girls changing into different sexy clothes.
Actually, I liked both games, at the very least gameplay wise. I liked the battle system in X because it was really strategic being able to see who's turn is next and shift party members all the time. This really discourages pure dps strategies.
I guess story wise it... was still ok. I honestly don't get why everyone hates Tidus so much... sure, he's far from the best main character ever but he's not that bad... even with the stupid laugh. And we got great characters like Auron in exchange.

And X-2 I liked because FF V is probably my favorite FF ever. I love a well done job system and even if it was a fashion show the variety of jobs in X-2 really worked for me. The side quests could have been done better, though....



The thing about tactics is Cloud was a playable character so if you have it the same world with huge time gaps between games you need some explanation for how he could survive that long.
Uhm... I'll still support the idea of the machine dragging Cloud across dimensions rather than time...

JetThomasBoat
2012-07-23, 11:54 AM
I really shouldn't be reading this right now because I'm trying to work on a D&D campaign loosely based on the beginning parts (and possibly more) of the first Final Fantasy and I keep wanting to include more and more elements from the original game.

Anyway, I think the theory is fairly interesting so far and everything, but I'll probably stop reading around the time you get to FFX because I couldn't decide which turned me off to that game more, the completely confusing plot or the fact that I just couldn't freaking beat Yunalesca and was unwilling to keep trying to figure everything out. And I apparently missed some key spheres somewhere and couldn't make my characters more powerful in preparation of the fight. And then someone told me Tidus wasn't real or something and I was done.

All that aside, yeah, I think it's a fairly interesting theory.

Infernally Clay
2012-07-23, 12:39 PM
It's a curious theory but, as far as we can tell, the only Final Fantasy games with any connection to each other are VII and X. It was pretty much confirmed that FFVII is set one thousand years after FFX and that one of the minor characters in FFX-2 started developing technology that would one day become that which ShinRa used to siphon Mako from the planet.

DiscipleofBob
2012-07-23, 04:28 PM
It's a curious theory but, as far as we can tell, the only Final Fantasy games with any connection to each other are VII and X. It was pretty much confirmed that FFVII is set one thousand years after FFX and that one of the minor characters in FFX-2 started developing technology that would one day become that which ShinRa used to siphon Mako from the planet.

This was touched upon earlier in the thread, but "pretty much confirmed" here means "one guy hinting at a connection in an interview." There's a lot of things that don't really make sense with 7 being the future of X, mostly the lack of anything resembling the Cetra in FFX or the Zanarkand-era civilization in the world of FF7.

Oh, and the next installment is out. Here and in the OP for your enjoyment.

Final Fantasy VIIThe Plot

There are not as many details about Final Fantasy VII's past, only that there were once a race of wise people called the Cetra, that they were mostly wiped out by the calamity from the sky known as Jenova, and that the closest thing the world has to a government is the all-powerful global corporation Shinra.

Jenova is a near incomprehensible alien horror who seeks to destroy the world, supposedly to ride its husk to other inhabited worlds and corrupt and destroy them as well. Fortunately, while Jenova is technically alive, it is defunct and incapable of accomplishing its supposed task.

The Cetra for all intents and purposes are human, the only difference being their name, culture, and knowledge of natural magicks.

Shinra provides energy to the world at whatever price they set. There are no real governments that can oppose them because everyone needs what they provide. In the rare case of a nation resisting, such as Wutai, they have more than enough firepower to quell uprisings and take control for themselves.

Five years prior to the game, the Sephiroth incident at Nibelheim occured. The man known as Sephiroth, a mako-infused warrior and hero of many wars, went berserk and single-handedly destroyed the entire town. Shinra quickly covered up the entire event and paid off the whole town to keep quiet. In the Nibelheim Mako reactor, Sephiroth found the remains of the being known as Jenova, and based on the notes of insane mad scientist Hojo, Sephiroth believed that Jenova was his mother. (The reality of course being is that Sephiroth like many experimental soldiers was injected with cells from Jenova and that his biological parents were the mad scientist Hojo and a woman known as Lucretia.) Sephiroth's delusions caused him to believe that his purpose in life was to exterminate all life on the planet and turn the planet into a burnt husk. Before he could enact his plans though, a regular soldier named Cloud in a fit of adrenaline managed to hurl Sephiroth into the bowels of the reactor.

In the aftermath, Cloud was among others who were recovered from the incident and used as further experiments with Jenova cells. Years later, Cloud in a catatonic state would be rescued by Zack, an elite warrior of SOLDIER, not to be confused with the everyday soldiers working for Shinra. Zack died defending Cloud, but in his damaged state, Cloud ended up adopting most of what he knew of Zack as his own life, believing himself to be an elite member of SOLDIER.

Cloud joined up with his childhood friend Tifa, who'd been spared from the carnage, in Midgar working for an ecoterrorist group AVALANCHE, whose purpose was to blow up the Mako reactors powering Midgar in an effort to stop depleting the earth of vital and potentially unrenewable energy. Shinra eventually violently reacted by bringing down a massive plate on the entire sector where AVALANCHE was based, destroying it. Cloud rescues a girl named Aeris from Shinra's black ops team: the Turks. Aeris turned out to be the last of the Cetra, an ancient culture on the verge of extinction, and believed to be a different race altogether. After being captured in Shinra's HQ, the being known as Sephiroth made his return, killing many of the people inside the building and the president of Shinra himself. His son, Rufus, immediately assumed control of the company.

From that point it was a race against Shinra to chase after Sephiroth across the globe, making allies along the way. It was discovered that Cloud could potentially be possessed and controlled by Sephiroth. Sephiroth's the plan is to find and use the Black Materia to summon Meteor and cause armageddon. The party manages to beat him to it, but Sephiroth uses his control over Cloud to force him to hand over the Black Materia to Sephiroth. Aeris travels alone to the forgotten ruins of the Cetra, where she plans to invoke Holy to counter Meteor. The party pursues, and Cloud almost kills Aeris himself after losing control. He manages to stop himself, only able to watch helplessly as Sephiroth kills Aeris himself. The party continues to the northern crater to find Sephiroth, who uses a variety of illusions and manipulations to make Cloud give Sephiroth the Black Materia, allowing him to summon Meteor. Cloud falls into the Lifestream and goes missing, the others are arrested by Shinra, and the planet itself violently reacts and summons the Weapons.

The party clashes with Shinra as both try to find ways to stop the impending Meteor while Tifa finds Cloud in a catatonic state in Mideel. An eruption causes both to fall into the Lifestream where Tifa helps Cloud piece together his past. One of the Weapons that defend the planet appears to attack Midgar. In defense, Shinra mounts a giant cannon in Midgar and connects it to the Mako reactors, destroying the Weapon and piercing the shield protecting the crater where Sephiroth is finishing his ritual. Midgar falls as well as most of Shinra. Although Rufus and his Turks end up surviving, Shinra is but a shell of what it once was. Cloud and company travel to the crater for the final confrontation, where they defeat a mostly regenerated form of Jenova as well as Sephiroth at his peak power. Sephiroth can no longer restrain Holy and the force that Aeris summoned with her death is released to counter Meteor. It comes too late however as Holy fails to stop Meteor. Then the Lifestream itself pushes back, supposedly with Aeris's spirit guiding it, and stops Meteor. Midgar is destroyed from the incident, Cloud defeats Sephiroth, and the world is saved.

The Aftermath

The fact is, the world is not all well. Sephiroth might have been stopped, but any semblance of a world government (Shinra) went with it. Not only that, but there will be another massive energy crisis as Mako is now considered taboo, and the reactors can't just be dismantled so easily. They're like open syringes stuck into the force of the planet. Still, eventually life will get better. More ecofriendly means of cultivating magical forces will eventually be developed, resulting in natural fountains of magic as opposed to artificially crystalized materia. These "Draw Points" will play a central role in the coming history, as well as the shamanistic religion of Cosmo Canyon, since all beliefs about the planet being a living thing and the balance of life are more or less proven correct.

Over time, people will learn how to use magic again, though through natural means. Instead of enslaving the summons through materia, they'll learn to call upon the summons via Drawing the magic through the draw points or from others. Magic will become more free-flowing and simultaneously more difficult to control. Those who completely master the control of magic will be known as Sorceresses, and nations will rise and fall in their defense and at their whim. The lack of any government will mean several factions will take control, leading eventually to wars fought by the Sorceresses and their knights, destroying much of the world.

The Connections

The Espers and magic as we know are gone from Final Fantasy 6, so where did they go? Figaro from the last game is the world's only true world power left, and having a technologically advanced burrowing castle doesn't hurt things either. Expeditions deep into the earth of FF6 will eventually reveal an untapped source of magic, the Lifestream. Magic was never completely sealed off from the dimension, just from the world thanks to Kefka directing all magic through himself. At first, Figaro will be benevolent with its methods of cultivating magic and distributing it across the world. But eventually Edgar and Sabin will pass and someday their heirs won't be so nice. Figaro controls the world by monopolizing the technology and the magic. Magitek is rediscovered, and society progresses, but at a great price.

The Cetra are for all intents and purposes human, and always endangered. But they could be descended from someone who wasn't completely human. Someone like a half-human, half-esper who lost their powers, someone like Terra. It wouldn't be a very prosperous line. In fact that it survived at all is likely due to the line's natural affinity for magic once it's rediscovered.

Jenova is an ill-defined concept, but its alien form and appearance resemble in many ways the villains of the previous games: Zeromus, Neo Exdeath, the Cloud of Darkness. All in all, this aberrant sort of creature is the sort of evil we've come to expect from that second moon. Supposedly it was destroyed in its various incarnations in Final Fantasy 6, but perhaps it wasn't. Perhaps it can't be. Perhaps all this time it was healing itself, drawing upon forces like the Lifestream the the hatred of mankind that fills it. That's why the Lifestream itself is pure despite being made up of all life on earth. All the hate, the corruption, much like Zeromus once implied, is gathered and concentrated to give birth to evil. That is what Jenova is, the reincarnation of evil. That could very well be what Meteor is as well.

The various summons only exist now as spirits and vague concepts within the Lifestream itself, only being able to take full but temporary form in the rare Red Materia.

Races aren't touched upon much in FF7. Only that there are a few unspecified members of Red XIII's species left (a possible offshoot of the Werewolves of past games), and that his 'grandfather' Bugenhagen at least doesn't appear to be completely human. Moogles are a mythological creature completely, only appearing in video games and as costumes in amusement parks.

This one might be a bit rushed as I have to get going. Still, enjoy. Comment. Criticize. Denounce. It's all good here.

oblivion6
2012-07-23, 07:02 PM
Anyway, I think the theory is fairly interesting so far and everything, but I'll probably stop reading around the time you get to FFX because I couldn't decide which turned me off to that game more, the completely confusing plot or the fact that I just couldn't freaking beat Yunalesca and was unwilling to keep trying to figure everything out. And I apparently missed some key spheres somewhere and couldn't make my characters more powerful in preparation of the fight. And then someone told me Tidus wasn't real or something and I was done.

All that aside, yeah, I think it's a fairly interesting theory.

i am still trying to fight seymour on mount gagazet. i am seriously underpowered because i accidently had every single character go the completely oppisite direction from where they were supposed to(like lulu running into wakka's section)

Kjata
2012-07-25, 09:02 AM
i am still trying to fight seymour on mount gagazet. i am seriously underpowered because i accidently had every single character go the completely oppisite direction from where they were supposed to(like lulu running into wakka's section)

Start a new game. Seriously.

On my first playthrough I screwed up tidus and ended up extremely far away from hastega, and gave up.

If you can't beat seymour, the end boss is basically impossible. I found seympur incredibly difficult the first time through, but going in with hastega and a dedicated party, he was pretty easy. And I till say that the end boss of X is the hardest FF end boss. Compared to sephiroth, necron, altima, and li-grim, anyway.

Wookieetank
2012-07-25, 09:26 AM
Start a new game. Seriously.

On my first playthrough I screwed up tidus and ended up extremely far away from hastega, and gave up.

If you can't beat seymour, the end boss is basically impossible. I found seympur incredibly difficult the first time through, but going in with hastega and a dedicated party, he was pretty easy. And I till say that the end boss of X is the hardest FF end boss. Compared to sephiroth, necron, altima, and li-grim, anyway.

This or spend some time grinding. Although if you do start a new game I highly reccomend using the highbridge as an area to farm for AP. Outside of the optional dungeon and abusing the monster arena, its one of the easiest places to get AP quickly that I've found.

oblivion6
2012-07-25, 05:06 PM
i currently have a couple ideas of how to get back on track. its coming along fairly well. anyone know the best place to find black magic and return spheres? they are the keys to my plan.

Kato
2012-07-26, 04:33 AM
i currently have a couple ideas of how to get back on track. its coming along fairly well. anyone know the best place to find black magic and return spheres? they are the keys to my plan.

No offense but google or gamefaqs would be a much better place to look...

oblivion6
2012-07-26, 04:41 AM
No offense but google or gamefaqs would be a much better place to look...

yep probably. its called me being to lazy to look on there:smallwink:

zorenathres
2012-07-26, 12:19 PM
The Cetra are for all intents and purposes human, and always endangered. But they could be descended from someone who wasn't completely human. Someone like a half-human, half-esper who lost their powers, someone like Terra. It wouldn't be a very prosperous line. In fact that it survived at all is likely due to the line's natural affinity for magic once it's rediscovered.

----------------------
The cetra are [the ancient ancestors of humans on the planet who turned their backs on the cruel & harsh way of life for the cetra, instead choosing to settle this new world], their origins are unknown, but they came to this world from another. They are nomadic & "cultivate" worlds, constantly traveling from world to world in search of the "promised land", their idea of paradise (very very likely, the existence within the lifestream, with which they are attuned). The normal people that you see in the game are the descendents of the cetra who chose to stay on earth (lucky for them since the planet suffered a terrible calamity & the remaining cetra sacrificed their lives to save the planet, while the survivors hid in caves for centuries...).
----------------------




Jenova is an ill-defined concept, but its alien form and appearance resemble in many ways the villains of the previous games: Zeromus, Neo Exdeath, the Cloud of Darkness. All in all, this aberrant sort of creature is the sort of evil we've come to expect from that second moon. Supposedly it was destroyed in its various incarnations in Final Fantasy 6, but perhaps it wasn't. Perhaps it can't be. Perhaps all this time it was healing itself, drawing upon forces like the Lifestream the the hatred of mankind that fills it. That's why the Lifestream itself is pure despite being made up of all life on earth. All the hate, the corruption, much like Zeromus once implied, is gathered and concentrated to give birth to evil. That is what Jenova is, the reincarnation of evil. That could very well be what Meteor is as well.


------------------
Jenova is a "calamity from the skies", a cosmic horror from beyond the stars that consumes & absorbs all life on any world it encounters, then uses that as a means to reach other worlds... Jenova crashed on its initial arrival to "earth" (the FF7 one, whatever), creating a global disaster & the northern crater. I dont see how Jenova can be a reincarnation of "evil" born of the lifestream.

But we really dont know much about it either... the "calamity from the skies" is a direct quote from the game, but that's about all they give us IG.
------------------

I know you are trying to connect the dots but Jenova & the Cetra are not native to the FF7 world. That could explain why they have no connection to X, the Cetra likely came to earth after it was in ruin (post X, X-2), healed & cultivated it for their "reward", then jenova came along & screwed things up for everyone... this contradicts itself since in FF7 the cetra are stated to be the ancestors of humans (& since their not native, did humans then excavate mako tech from a twice (thrice?) dead world instead of inventing it?). Its really confusing to me how these two games are related...

However, at the end of X-2, some character is supposed to be developing the beginnings of mako tech, which is the dominant power source in FF7, i dunno cause i never played X-2.

EDIT:
eh, perhaps i looked to hard into it, looking back at the timeline, the cetra could be native, or not...


Many Years Ago:

The Cetra, a nomadic magical race which may or may not have originated on the Planet, settle after a long and arduous journey. Some Cetra (later known as Ancients) choose to continue their journey, whilst others settle down and eventually become humans. A few true Cetra still survive, however.

from the FF compendium

http://www.ffcompendium.com/h/ff7story.shtml

DiscipleofBob
2012-07-26, 01:53 PM
First of all, let me officially thank you for getting the thread back on track. Maybe Selphie will stop crying now. Poor girl loves her trains and cries when these things start derailing.

Rebuttal time:

The biggest problem with info regarding the Cetra and Jenova is that it all seems to come from sources in-game which could theoretically be mistaken about their true origins. These worlds aren't known for keeping the best historical records, especially since most traces of past civilizations keep getting wiped out by various apacolypses every few thousand years or so.

I'm going off the Compendium and the Wiki here, and neither give the exact in-game source for each tidbit of info, and that should be taken into account. For example, should we really trust the words of Sephiroth or Hojo when they're clearly insane, evil, manipulative, dishonest, etcetera? If anyone can provide more specific examples I would greatly appreciate them.

All we know about Jenova's origin is that it crash-landed 2000 years before the events of FF7 and made a crater. There's nothing that proves that it must be an alien from outer space other than in-game assumptions. It could even be from the Void, seemingly a common source of these types of evil in these timelines. Considering the words of beings like Zeromus, who claimed he would exist as long as evil did, and the origins of beings like Exdeath, who was a tree before all the evil imprisoned within him became its own monster. "Calamity from the skies" is just a name given to to Jenova. There's no reason to take it completely literally as an alien from outer space.

As far as I can tell, the only thing for certain about the Cetra is that they are very similar to humans, if not actually human in species, just more inclined towards magic and more in tune with the earth. This actually works with the descendents of Terra/Espers theory. Of course they would be more in tune with the lifestream of the planet. Once it's discovered as a source of magic, the link between magic and the rest of the world would be restored, and Terra's descendants, being part magical being if only by ancestry, would be best suited to it. It also doesn't make much sense for the Cetra to be the literal ancestors to the entire human race.

Otherwise, why would Ilfalna (Aeris's Mom) and Aeris be true ancients while the rest of the world are just humans?

Re: X-2 and 7, since this has been brought up several times now.

Okay, here's the deal for those of you who haven't heard.

There's a main character in X-2 named Shinra. He's an Al Bhed boy genius who works with Yuna and co and is basically their techie.

In X-2: Final Mix (or whatever it's called, that awesome version of game Square keeps releasing except for in the US :smallfurious: ), there's a tidbit about Shinra looking at the possibility of drawing on the Farplane (basically the afterlife) for energy, but the technology won't come for a while.

That and a comment from one of the key names on FFX during an interview hinted at that connection as well. The idea was never really fleshed out, or mentioned in either games, however.

My official stance on this is that I'm refuting it. I do not believe that FFX took place before FF7 despite Word of God, and I understand that because it's Word of God, many people won't agree with me, and that's fine. I don't expect to convince everyone, and the criticism from skeptics is the best at pointing out further holes in this theory for me to attempt to patch.

My biggest problem with the FFX -> FF7 connection is that while FF7 has traces of ancient societies (the Cetra mostly), there's no mention or trace of the advanced, futuristic societies like Zanarkand in 7. Granted, they could just be really well hidden after thousands of years, but I don't think that one referential character and one WoG statement (that was admitted by the man who made said statement that the idea was never really fleshed out) is enough to call this idea true canon.

Tiki Snakes
2012-07-26, 07:35 PM
Well, regardless of what game goes before or after which, I must say I agree on the point regarding Jenova. It's pretty much delivered as a non-controversial statement of fact; Jenova is an extra-terrestrial horror, foreign to the world and that came to it in the event that caused the crater (via crashlanding on a Meteor, I believe).

That always seemed pretty set in stone, to me.

Kris Strife
2012-07-27, 08:03 AM
Personally, I always figured the Cetra were somehow related to the inhabitants of the Moon from FFIV. Doesn't inherently mean that it's the same planet that Final Fantasy IV took place on, though After Years might get rid of the possibility of VII taking place on a different world that that moon visited. (I haven't beaten it yet.)

I also figured that FFI actually took place later in the series than some of the more advanced games, because of the ancient floating cities and castles, the lost civilizations and the Death Machine/Warmech secret boss.

Xondoure
2012-07-29, 01:58 PM
The question remains, where lies the true Final Fantasy? Probably not released yet I suppose.

Traab
2012-07-29, 02:43 PM
The question remains, where lies the true Final Fantasy? Probably not released yet I suppose.

The day they finally decide to shut down the final fantasy franchise, the last game will end with the heroes surrendering to the bad guy for some reason, fade to black, fade to light, as we focus on some cinema footage of doctors standing around a coma patients now dead body, as they make statements about how its amazing that after all these years, his body seemed to stop fighting to stay alive, and has finally passed on.

All these adventures, all these epic quests, all these faint but still present linkages between games. All of them were the subconscious efforts of a damaged mind trying to wake up and defeat what was holding it back all this time. Only to finally realize that all its struggles have been pointless, and he gives up, passing on. Perhaps a final cgi cinematic of the camera zooming out up into the sky, as ethereal music plays, and we see a hazy heavenish reception for the soul of the tired warrior, finally ready to move on. An outline of a young man with a sword on his back, perhaps with a constantly shifting shape to reference the main characters of the various games, walking into the light of his own Farplane.

Kris Strife
2012-07-29, 02:59 PM
The question remains, where lies the true Final Fantasy? Probably not released yet I suppose.

Supposedly, the title comes from the fact that the first one was the series creator's last chance at making a game before he'd have to return to college, the original game was his final chance at his fantasy.

DarthArminius
2012-07-29, 05:21 PM
The question remains, where lies the true Final Fantasy? Probably not released yet I suppose.

Final Fantasy is the hallucinatory fantasy land of a poor little boy with autism. :(

Man on Fire
2012-07-29, 06:47 PM
Final Fantasy is the hallucinatory fantasy land of a poor little boy with autism. :(

So is everything else (http://home.vicnet.net.au/~kwgow/crossovers.html)

DiscipleofBob
2012-07-30, 08:14 AM
Supposedly, the title comes from the fact that the first one was the series creator's last chance at making a game before he'd have to return to college, the original game was his final chance at his fantasy.

Actually it was because Squaresoft at the time was tanking and this game would have been their last if it didn't make enough money to get them back on their feet, but the good news is it did.

Traab
2012-07-30, 08:32 AM
Actually it was because Squaresoft at the time was tanking and this game would have been their last if it didn't make enough money to get them back on their feet, but the good news is it did.

Thank god, or else I would have been stuck playing Phantasy Star games instead for my rpg fix. Bleh. I like my rpgs to be fantasy, not sci fi. Only real exception was xenogears. That one was cool. Gorram sewer level. I will never beat that game.

Nerd-o-rama
2012-07-30, 12:20 PM
/dashes in

Jenova is a Lavos Spawn.

/dashes out

DiscipleofBob
2012-07-30, 01:37 PM
/dashes in

Jenova is a Lavos Spawn.

/dashes out

I love it.

Only reason I'm not going to fit Chrono Trigger into the main theory is that the time travel shenanigans would make the TARDIS explode.

Then throw in Ultimecia... :smalleek:

GloatingSwine
2012-07-30, 04:02 PM
My biggest problem with the FFX -> FF7 connection is that while FF7 has traces of ancient societies (the Cetra mostly), there's no mention or trace of the advanced, futuristic societies like Zanarkand in 7. Granted, they could just be really well hidden after thousands of years, but I don't think that one referential character and one WoG statement (that was admitted by the man who made said statement that the idea was never really fleshed out) is enough to call this idea true canon.

The actual Word of God statement is that humans eventually left Spira, and the humans who came to Planet are their descendants.

Remember, humans were not indigenous to Planet, the Cetra were.



Sephiroth: You ignorant traitor. I'll tell you. This was an itinerant race.
They would migrate in, settle the Planet, then move on… At the end of their
harsh, hard journey, they would find the Promised Land and supreme happiness.
But, those who stopped their migrations built shelters and elected to lead an
easier life. They took that which the Cetra and the planet had made without
giving back one whit in return! Those are your ancestors.

Cloud: Sephiroth…

Sephiroth: Long ago, disaster struck this planet. Your ancestors escaped… They
survived because they hid. The Planet was saved by sacrificing the Cetra. After
that, your ancestors continued to increase. Now all that's left of the Cetra is
in these reports.


(That exchange takes place in the basement of the Nibelheim mansion in Cloud's flashback)

There's no trace of Zanarkand because it's on another planet, at least 2000 years ago (humans were already on Planet when Jenova arrived).

DiscipleofBob
2012-07-30, 07:37 PM
(That exchange takes place in the basement of the Nibelheim mansion in Cloud's flashback)

There's no trace of Zanarkand because it's on another planet, at least 2000 years ago (humans were already on Planet when Jenova arrived).

That comes entirely from Sephiroth who was completely insane. Those same reports convinced him he was Jenova's kid, which we already know is false.

zorenathres
2012-07-30, 07:55 PM
i tried to google the word of god for FF to no avail, anyone have a link so i can read it? thanks guys!

GloatingSwine
2012-07-31, 01:45 PM
That comes entirely from Sephiroth who was completely insane. Those same reports convinced him he was Jenova's kid, which we already know is false.

From a certain point of view. Lucrezia might have been Sephiroth's biological mother, but the extensive in-utero Jenova cell treatment would make him just as much a "child" of Jenova.

Besides which, there's no reason for the documents to be falsified.

GloatingSwine
2012-07-31, 01:48 PM
i tried to google the word of god for FF to no avail, anyone have a link so i can read it? thanks guys!

It's in the Japan only FFX-2 Ultimania guidebook. I don't know whether there's a translated scan of it anywhere.

Ermhm
2012-08-07, 06:59 PM
Hey everybody,

I found a short Final Fantasy timeline 2 years ago, so I took it and expanded upon it. Maybe you'll find if interesting.

http://www.gamespot.com/users/ermhm/show_blog_entry.php?topic_id=m-100-25841605

Kitten Champion
2012-08-07, 10:52 PM
Considering the number of omnicidal god-like eldrich abominations that seem to pop up, if the Fantasy Fantasies are all on or adjacent to the same planet, it's a terribly unlucky one.

At least it would be clear that we do in fact evolve beyond Vancian magic.

DiscipleofBob
2012-08-07, 11:46 PM
Hey everybody,

I found a short Final Fantasy timeline 2 years ago, so I took it and expanded upon it. Maybe you'll find if interesting.

http://www.gamespot.com/users/ermhm/show_blog_entry.php?topic_id=m-100-25841605

That's really cool. I haven't gotten a chance to read through the whole thing yet, but mind if I link to it in the opening post as an alternate theory? With proper credits of course.


Considering the number of omnicidal god-like eldrich abominations that seem to pop up, if the Fantasy Fantasies are all on or adjacent to the same planet, it's a terribly unlucky one.

At least it would be clear that we do in fact evolve beyond Vancian magic.

Not so much evolve as stripped of the source of it by one of the many omnicidal god-like eldritch abominations. :smalltongue:

Ermhm
2012-08-08, 05:37 AM
That's really cool. I haven't gotten a chance to read through the whole thing yet, but mind if I link to it in the opening post as an alternate theory? With proper credits of course.

Please do, it would be great to contribute & hear some opinions ^_^

As I haven't played through all of the Final Fantasy games, it's always great to find new contradictions and connections (which aren't necessarily really there, but who cares - we're having fun).