PDA

View Full Version : PvP Challenge - Which class should I play?



Jzadek
2011-11-17, 06:18 PM
Two of my friends and I plan to have a deathmatch between specially built characters - one of which is definitely a rogue, another of which is likely to be a fighter type. I know that I want to bring the power of magic to the field, but I'm not sure which type - divine? Arcane?
I know I want to play either a druid, wizard or cleric, but I'm not sure which would suit this type of gameplay.

On the one hand, the awesome offensive spells of the wizard is tempting, but if the rogue gets me with a sneak attack, she could half my health, or more. A cleric has more survivability, but I'm unsure what sort of a build (if any) would help in the situation. A druid seems a good option - turn into a sparrow and rain down spells on them - but I'd want to play more dynamically. Afterall, optimization is partly the point of this exercise, but that just doesn't seem fun.

So, fellow forumites, do you have any recommendations? And if so, and outlines for a build to go for? Consulting forums has been agreed on, by the way, so this isn't cheating.

Thanks.

Psyren
2011-11-17, 06:24 PM
All you need to avoid sneak attack is concealment, e.g. Blur or Invisibility.

We need more data - what books are available, what level, item budget, can you choose race, feats, PrCs etc.

If your opponent is going pure rogue this'll be pretty easy though.

Noblesse
2011-11-17, 06:42 PM
If level 20.. you could finish it in one round without any worries.

Go first by luck or Celerity...
time stop
dimensional anchor
cloudkill
forcecage

--assuming you don't want to just gate in something and let them handle it.. A solar would probably be able to handle both of them at once on it's own...

Jzadek
2011-11-17, 06:58 PM
All you need to avoid sneak attack is concealment, e.g. Blur or Invisibility.

We need more data - what books are available, what level, item budget, can you choose race, feats, PrCs etc.

If your opponent is going pure rogue this'll be pretty easy though.

Ah, yes. Core primarily, but a small bit of anything else we can find it permitted - so if I go cleric, I go divine metamagic. Item budget is standard for the level (which is in the OP - it's level 20) and we can choose any race, a few non-core feats and PrCs, but we'll probably just stick to a single class for simplicities sake.

Emperor Tippy
2011-11-17, 07:04 PM
Let's see, wizard 15/Archmage 5 using only core.

Go Grey Elf for your race with Int and Dex maxed.

If you DM allows it, use Moment Of Prescience to ensure that you win Initiative (it depends on whether or not you believe that Init is an opposed check). Otherwise, your contingency should move you out of range if you don't win Init.

On your turn cast Maximized Time Stop (using a Greater Rod). This gives you 5 buff rounds, use them as follows: 1) Disintegrate targeted at the square under your enemy (if he is flying cast flight instead), 2) move next to enemy and cast Prismatic Sphere, 3) move outside of sphere and cast Mind Blank, 4) cast Invisibility. 5) Read a book.

Your enemies are trapped inside a prismatic sphere with no way out and touching it will almost certainly destroy them. If they manage to make all of their various required saves then they still can't find you as the only core way around Mind Blank + Invisibility is with an Epic listen or spot check.

If he does manage to make his saves, whack him with a Forcecage.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2011-11-17, 07:08 PM
IF optimization/easily destroying the competition was more fun for you, I would suggest Wizard/Incantatrix putting every buff known to mankind on you 24 hours a day. This includes, but is not limited to, Greater Invisibility, Greater Blink, Swift Fly and, if they get past all those defenses, Friendly Fire. That's going to be hard to get through. You can either persist a bunch of Fell Drain Cloud of Knives (PHBII) to level drain your poor foes to death and/or use Draconic Polymorph to turn yourself into a crazy beatstick and eat them.

The counter to this is a high-CL dispel magic combined with True Seeing, which your opponents sorely lack.

But you basically said you want the fight to be interesting. Well, they do, too, so you can assume they have some means of countering magical flight. Maybe the rogue has a scroll of Solid Fog that will ruin your day if your flight is natural. Maybe the fighter is archery focused. Keep these in mind and prepare counters; the easiest counter for a spell is Divine Defiance (FCII) if you're a cleric or Celerity if you're a wizard. The easiest counter to archery is Wind Wall or the aforementioned Friendly Fire.

If the rogue is a "hidey" rogue, (multiple castings of) sculpted glitterdust, displacement and flight are your friends. Normally I'd say mindsight is great, but a "hidey" rogue will probably have darkstalker (same book, after all). The fighter isn't much of a concern. You should have several ways to prevent his main shtick from working. Just make sure you figure out what his shtick is before he's able to pull it off.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-11-17, 07:08 PM
Personally? I'd say go lazy.

Barbarian 2 (I'd probably say go WhirlPounce, if you are allowed, but 2nd level for Uncanny Dodge is important to negate the Rogue)/Druid 18

Basically, you're a Druid. You can shapeshift into... pretty much anything you want. And in that form, you're better than both of them put together.

And, of course, you also have 9th level spells to boot...

Jzadek
2011-11-17, 07:18 PM
Ok, thanks guys. This is all really helpful.

...




Your username seems familiar... You wouldn't happen to frequent the Spacebattles Vs forums, would you?

If so, I can safely say already that your sig is right - Tippy=win. Otherwise, I'll have to wait and see.:smallwink:

Eldariel
2011-11-18, 12:39 AM
Note, there's no reason you shouldn't be allowed to have spells active 24 hours or more on you active at the start of the fight since you cast them all every morning. As such I suggest:
- Mind Blank
- Overland Flight
- Moment of Prescience (see Tippy; use to win Initiative if your DM sees it as an opposed check; some contention on that fact exists)
- Phantom Steed (it's way faster; Overland Flight is just a safeguard in case something happens to it)
- Contingency: Tie it to you uttering some word (talking is a free action that can be taken out of turn order (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#speak)) and have the effect be Dimension Door or Teleport X feet back.
- Arcane Sight (should prolly be Permanencied)
- See Invisibility (see above)
- Could get Tongues tho that's probably not necessary
- True Seeing through some source (Planar Bound creature, Greater Prying Eyes, etc. You prolly want Greater Prying Eyes near your person relaying you information constantly in addition to having few scout; you'll have 20+ of them anyways)
- Polymorph Any Object (duration is permanent with two castings; just get the pimpiest base body you can find and go from there) - Shapechange overlaps this but in case you somehow lose it, this is a better base form than your default; can use Disguise Self and Alter Self to appear as you wish
- Shapechange (3 castings with Greater Extend Metamagic Rod would cover, assuming Caster Level 22 and 26 on the first casting, 440 min = 7 hours 20 mins and 520 mins = 8 hours 40 mins for a total of 23 hours and 20 mins coverage - you're preparing spells in a private sanctum for that 1 hour I guess tho if necessary, throw a 4th non-Extended casting in to cover all day) - sit in a form with good base stats like Dex & Str and preferably as many immunities as you can find (Elder/Great Air Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm#airElemental) or Dread Wraith (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wraith.htm#dreadWraith) is pretty good for instance); once fight starts, turn into Choker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/choker.htm) for double casts the first round until you need a defensive form again (can turn into defensive form at the end of your Time Stop for instance, something like Beholder for spell bombardment or e.g. Pit Fiend for physical combat; just carry a weapon with Greater Magic Weapon cast on it for those).
- Invisibility (use 3 level 3 Extended slots for this, same as above)
- Heroism ('cause why not; see above)
- Anti-Magic Field with you excluded (makes melee against you pretty hard as magic is disabled in squares next to you; farewell magic weapons, flight-imbuing magic items and all that); could burn 3 level 7 slots on this - could also cast this Widened (3 level 8 slots hurts tho) with Extend coming from Metamagic Rod (it's spell level 6 even when cast from level 8 slot so a normal Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell will suffice).
- Empowered False Life (or Maximized Empowered or whatever; might as well)
- Mage Armor; what else are you gonna do with level 1 slots?
- (Nystul's) Magic Aura on all your spells and items 'cause seriously, registering as a source of Overwhelming Magic is so last century.
- Protection From Alignment (could use your 2nd level slots for Extended These mostly)

That should give you good basic defense for a couple of levels (Contingency is the Oh **** button).

You could also have Planar Bound creatures and Simulacrums at service. Simulacrum of a Planetar could be useful for instance; level 17 Cleric casting for you. Solar could work also though more expensive. They can cast e.g. high caster level Spell Resistance, Extended Heroes' Feast, Magic Vestments and Shields of Faith on you and of course, you can use Greater Magic Weapons and Vestment on any of your allies' weapons and armor. Freedom of Movement too; Death Ward would be harder though in your default Shapechange/Polymorph Any Object forms you should be immune anyways).

Greater Planar Binding can get you a Pit Fiend and Lesser could get you Nightmare, both very useful servants. Win the opposed check with Moment of Presicence. Just repeated castings to make one eventually fail the save. Animate Dead could get you a Skeletal Dragon, Hydra or something. Iono.

Act through Project Image. Protect yourself first (Prismatic Sphere is useful for instance). Project Image can probably do all you need done anyways and can be used if you lack Line of Effect personally. Have offensive access at least to:

- Gate (if any creature in the game can kill your opponents, this gets one to you for Caster Level levels)
- Greater Dispel Magics and Disjunction
- Wall of Force
- Wall of Stone
- Solid Fog
- Polymorph Any Object (it has many offensive uses)
- Disintegrate (some things are immune to anything else and it can hit some tough customers)
- Plane Shift (send to some hostileish plane like Positive Energy Plane or 9th Layer of Hell; if they can't planeshift, PEP at least screws 'em)
- Metamagicked Enervation (Empower spell and Maximize spell are both decent on it)
- Cloudkill (if you disable enemies' magic items, few are immune to it so Dimension Lock + Forcecage + Cloudkill)
- Some Damage Spell; be it metamagicked Scorching Ray, Chain Lightning or whatever is up to you. Note, Shapechange gives you a wide variety of efficient physical and magical attacks too.
- Glitterdust
- Web
- Grease
- Black Tentacles
- Limited Wish
- Wish
- Maze
- Otto's Irresistible Dance
- Reverse Gravity
- Telekinesis (plus appropriate amounts of appropriately big weapons, preferably with Greater Magic Weapons cast on 'em)
- Contact Other Plane
- Greater Scrying (in case you have a hard time finding somebody, probably less effort-intensive than Gate to try and deal with that issue in case your Shapechange isn't doing it)
- Time Stop (well, duh)
- Teleports


Though Gate and Shapechange should be able to solve most things alone. The rest is just backup in case. Note that spells replicated by Wish happen in Wish's time; good way to get fast Move Earth should you really need it for instance (in case you're faced with some annoying burrower).

Oh, build would be:
- Max Int and Con (rest in e.g. Con and Wis; Polymorph and Shapechange give you your physical stats)
- Old (+2 mentals, -3 physicals; with Polymorph Any Object, only Con matters)
- Gray Elf (Int bonus FTW)

Wizard 7/Loremaster 8/Archmage 5 (be sure to take Mastery of Shaping, Spell Power & Arcane Reach or two - Spell-Like Ability would get you more spell slots and is prolly a good last one - if you truly can't take two PRCs even tho one is only 5 levels then yeah, as Tippy said, Wizard 15/AM 5)

Red Wizard of Thay is in core and is stronger but that's hardly necessary. Loremaster gets you max Use Magic Device so you can activate Prayer Beads of Karma (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#strandofPrayerBeads) for +4 caster level with your morning buffs (harder to dispel, 24+ hour duration, etc). Without it, use cross-class skills and Circlet of Persuasion + Charisma buffs to get it off. You also need Orange Prism Ioun Stone (+1 caster level) for a total of 22 base caster level (Archmage + Orange Prism) and +4 more with morning buffs.

Ioun Stone of Not Breathing is usually a good idea too. Ring of Freedom of Movement is fine if you don't have your Planetar Simulacrum casting it. Ring of Evasion can be decent too and obviously you want Cloak of Resistance +6 and anything boosting your Int and Con (up and including Tomes; +5 Tome is a must for Int, can make do with +4 Con)

Might want a second Beads of Karma just in case you need CL 26 in combat. Also take two Spell Penetrations in addition to your metamagic feats + prerequisites, and maybe Craft Wondrous Items if you feel like saving some money. Improved Initiative could be a fun little overkill. Might want Flyby Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#flybyAttack) too depending on if you want to kite-cast; probably irrelevant though. Don't forget to max Tumble of course. Depending on how much XP you have to invest, might want to also use some Wishes to improve your stats. If you are given just enough XP to get level 20, burn the last level's worth of XP to craft and Permanency and Simulacrum stuff. Pearls of Power can make up for the lost spells prepared (you should have some anyways).

38 Int gives you 2 bonus 9th level slots. With the +1 Competence to all rolls Ioun Stone you also automake the Int-check on Contact Other Plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm) to contact Greater Deities. Great for information, and if you need the answer fast use Limited Wish or Scroll (should have some Scrolls and/or Wands of all the good spells anyways; can craft the Scrolls innately).


This isn't the best you can do but it's a good base-competent Wizard.

EDIT: Oh, have a stat block.

Gray Elf Wizard 15/Archmage 5 (or Wizard 7/Loremaster 8/Archmage 5)
Str 3 = 8 Base - 2 Race - 3 Age (Polymorphed away)
Dex 7 = 8 Base + 2 Race - 3 Age (Polymorphed away)
Con 24 = 18 Base -2 Race - 3 Age + 5 Inherent + 6 Items (Polymorphed away, determines your HP tho)
Int 38 = 18 Base + 2 Racial + 2 Age + 5 Levels + 5 Race + 6 Item
Wis 10 = 8 Base + 2 Age
Cha 10 = 8 Base + 2 Age

More Cha and Wis if PB is higher.


HD: 20d4 + 7*20 = 191 (assuming average HP for HDs after 1st - False Life puts you over 200 with Temp HP)

Level Progression:
Wizard 1: Skill Focus: Spellcraft, Scribe Scroll (Bonus)
Wizard 2:
Wizard 3: Spell Penetration
Wizard 4:
Wizard 5: Extend Spell (Wizard Bonus) [could take Craft Wondrous Items too - if so, take Extend Spell later]
Wizard 6: Spell Focus: Conjuration
Wizard 7:
Wizard 8:
Wizard 9: Spell Focus: Transmutation
Wizard 10: Quicken Spell (Wizard Bonus)
Wizard 11:
Wizard 12: Greater Spell Penetration
Wizard 13:
Wizard 14:
Wizard 15: Improved Initiative, Empower/Widen Spell (Wizard Bonus)
Archmage 1:
Archmage 2:
Archmage 3: Flyby Attack (or any of above)
Archmage 4:
Archmage 5:


Skills:
Spellcraft - 23 Ranks
Concentration - 23 Ranks
Tumble - 11 Ranks
Use Magic Device - 11/23 Ranks (if Loremaster, in class and 23)
Balance - 5 Ranks
Knowledge: Arcane/Local/Nature/Religion/Dungeoneering/The Planes - Plenty of ranks
Spot/Listen - Can put few if feel like it

1 point in anything Trained Only just 'cause you can.


Spells: See my list above. Just get all those spells and all that.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2011-11-18, 01:31 AM
Why are we assuming this is level 20?

Psyren
2011-11-18, 01:34 AM
Why are we assuming this is level 20?

Post 4. He claims he stated it in the OP too but I don't see it there.

Also, if his friends are really going Figher and Rogue vs. his mage this will be a short and very sad combat.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2011-11-18, 01:51 AM
Whoopsie. :smallredface:

You are right about shortness and sadness... maybe it would be more interesting if he didn't take all the good advice.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-11-18, 02:09 AM
Cleric with Divine Power and Righteous Might might also be lulzworthy... even without DMM: Persist, you can still get a decent amount of buffing going on...

Take the Travel and Trickery domains, if you would.

Trickery domain gets you Time Stop. That lets you set up your buff train before they can do anything. It also nets you Polymorph Any Object. Do I really need to go into details?

Miracle can be used to duplicate the effects of a spell of 7th level or lower. So make it duplicate Contingency. See previous postings on good ways to use it. Travel domain nets you Teleport and DimDoor.

Cast beforehand:
Greater Magic Weapon
Magic Vestments
Contingency upon a command phrase


So, turn 1: Time Stop.

Buff up with:
Divine Power
Righteous Might
Polymorph Any Object
Holy Aura

Or, if you want to get nasty...

Go evil, since your opponents will likely be good. Then use your Bead of Karma + other Spell Level enhancers + Blasphemy. All you need is your CL 5 higher for your opponents to be Paralyzed for 10 minutes, no save. If you can't figure out how to CDG them in that time, you need more help than I can provide.

candycorn
2011-11-18, 02:23 AM
On your turn cast Maximized Time Stop (using a Greater Rod). This gives you 5 buff rounds, use them as follows: 1) Disintegrate targeted at the square under your enemy (if he is flying cast flight instead), 2) move next to enemy and cast Prismatic Sphere, 3) move outside of sphere and cast Mind Blank, 4) cast Invisibility. 5) Read a book.
Extended Time Stop is a cheaper way to do it.

2d4+2 is better than or equal to 5 rounds 93.75% of the time. Greater Rods of Extend also have the advantage of being cheaper by 97,000gp.

Emperor Tippy
2011-11-18, 02:35 AM
Extended Time Stop is a cheaper way to do it.

2d4+2 is better than or equal to 5 rounds 93.75% of the time. Greater Rods of Extend also have the advantage of being cheaper by 97,000gp.
True enough. Although the reliability of knowing how many rounds you will have is a plus that can be quite handy.

candycorn
2011-11-18, 03:04 AM
True enough. Although the reliability of knowing how many rounds you will have is a plus that can be quite handy.

There is that. However, when your round 5 is, and I quote, "Read a book"...

This is not one of those times.

Emperor Tippy
2011-11-18, 03:10 AM
There is that. However, when your round 5 is, and I quote, "Read a book"...

This is not one of those times.

Again, true enough.

Silva Stormrage
2011-11-18, 03:10 AM
Wouldn't a good compromise be extended maximized timestop :smallbiggrin:. I am sure you need 10 rounds to finish them. 8 Acid Fogs + Solid Forcecage + Dimensional Lock?

candycorn
2011-11-18, 03:49 AM
Wouldn't a good compromise be extended maximized timestop :smallbiggrin:. I am sure you need 10 rounds to finish them. 8 Acid Fogs + Solid Forcecage + Dimensional Lock?

The biggest draw for extend is cost effectiveness. You can get just about 6 extend rods for the price of a single maximize rod.

I'd save the maximize for spells that deal damage...
especially since only one rod can be applied to any one spell.

Eldariel
2011-11-18, 04:37 AM
Wouldn't a good compromise be extended maximized timestop :smallbiggrin:. I am sure you need 10 rounds to finish them. 8 Acid Fogs + Solid Forcecage + Dimensional Lock?

Extend Spell shouldn't work with Time Stop. Its duration is technically Instantaneous; Empower Spell on the other hand would. That, only one metamagic rod can be applied to a single spell; to cast a Time Stop affected by multiple metamagic effects you'd need metamagic reducers or higher level slots of Sudden Metamagic feats or few specific tricks. None are available.

That said, Rod of Quicken Spell makes the Acid Fogs + Forcecage + Dimensional Lock plan just as doable; you only need 5 turns if you cast 2/round after all (those are too high level actually Quicken the oldfashioned way of course).

Pilo
2011-11-18, 05:25 AM
An druid in elemental form would be useful against a rogue because you will become immune to sneak attacks.

First round : Reverse gravity
Second round : turn into an air elemental.
other rounds : spam finger of death.
21st round : let him die from falling damages.

marcielle
2011-11-18, 05:26 AM
Remember, thanks to rules compendium, you can now wand of celerity in response to a celerity. In case of a celerity off whoever goes SECOND will win initiative. So be careful of celerity.

Malachei
2011-11-18, 06:11 AM
As an immediate-action spell, Celerity can't be cast flat-footed.

Foresight takes care of that, though.


If they manage to make all of their various required saves then they still can't find you as the only core way around Mind Blank + Invisibility is with an Epic listen or spot check.

Is there an FAQ or something on it? I can't see consensus in the threads I found. Many people argue that Mind Blank works or doesn't work this way. One camp interprets the "against divinations to gather information" in terms of the examples of scrying, etc., others apply it to all divinations. Personally, I'm a bit cautious to give the combo this power, as Mind Blank is already an awesome spell. But I'd love to see a source, even CustServ will do.

Eldariel
2011-11-18, 06:23 AM
Is there an FAQ or something on it? I can't see consensus in the threads I found. Many people argue that Mind Blank works or doesn't work this way. One camp interprets the "against divinations to gather information" in terms of the examples of scrying, etc., others apply it to all divinations. Personally, I'm a bit cautious to give the combo this power, as Mind Blank is already an awesome spell. But I'd love to see a source, even CustServ will do.

It was never clarified. That said, stuff like Arcane Sight, Lifesense & Blindsight still works just the same since there's no Darkstalker nor anything for the more obscure senses (another reason Dread Wraith is such an excellent form, btw; immune to basically everything, fast as all balls and has a very hard-to-deal-with sense).

That said, if this is Coreish I don't think Celerity is much to worry about. It's not really necessary here either; he's fighting mundanes. He could challenge himself by solving them with just Shapechange and conserving his actual spell slots, since that's about the level of challenge they provide; little puzzles to Shapechange out.

Garwain
2011-11-18, 06:41 AM
If you are worried that it won't be fun, then don't bring a tier 1 character into a tier 4 battle. Wouldn't it be much more fun of you tried to beat them with a ranger instead? You might not win, but it'll be interesting...

Malachei
2011-11-18, 06:43 AM
It was never clarified. (...)

Thanks. Without intending to lead this off topic, but what's your ruling on Mind Blank?

I noticed that it is mostly core, but since Celerity was mentioned several times, I thought I'd add this. It is sometimes left out.

The fight can be a bit more challenging if there's a confined area rule (you leave, you lose) and a ground movement only rule (you fly, dimension door, etc. you lose).

Not allowing enemies to close is one standard part of the wizard's high-level defenses. Of course, he has many more.

The wizard lives from his ability to disallow engagement, whereas the fighter lives off the exact opposite (and the rogue even more specifically). If your enemies have a good idea what your defense will look like, they may be able to pick up magic items to penetrate you.

Emperor Tippy
2011-11-18, 01:47 PM
Is there an FAQ or something on it? I can't see consensus in the threads I found. Many people argue that Mind Blank works or doesn't work this way. One camp interprets the "against divinations to gather information" in terms of the examples of scrying, etc., others apply it to all divinations. Personally, I'm a bit cautious to give the combo this power, as Mind Blank is already an awesome spell. But I'd love to see a source, even CustServ will do.
There is no "consensus" and there doesn't need to be. The written rules are clear "This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects.". True Seeing, Arcane Sight, Detect Magic; they all are divination spells and they all provide information about the individual protected by Mind Blank.

Sure, it's fairly commonly houseruled away because people don't like the implications but those are houserules.


It was never clarified. That said, stuff like Arcane Sight, Lifesense & Blindsight still works just the same since there's no Darkstalker nor anything for the more obscure senses (another reason Dread Wraith is such an excellent form, btw; immune to basically everything, fast as all balls and has a very hard-to-deal-with sense).
Arcane Sight doesn't work, it's a divination.

Eldariel
2011-11-18, 01:56 PM
Arcane Sight doesn't work, it's a divination.

Arcane Sight doesn't detect anything about the person tho but the auras of magic items and spells on the person. Mind Blank only protects the subject itself, not his possessions or spell effects on him. You need castings of Magic Aura to conceal the auras and items separately.

Psyren
2011-11-18, 02:02 PM
Arcane Sight doesn't detect anything about the person tho but the auras of magic items and spells on the person. Mind Blank only protects the subject itself, not his possessions or spell effects on him. You need castings of Magic Aura to conceal the auras and items separately.

This doesn't quite make sense to me. If this reading were true, trying to scry on an area with a mind blanked person in it would show all their disembodied gear floating in space.

In other words, Mind Blank implicitly protects your equipment as well.

Emperor Tippy
2011-11-18, 02:06 PM
Arcane Sight doesn't detect anything about the person tho but the auras of magic items and spells on the person. Mind Blank only protects the subject itself, not his possessions or spell effects on him. You need castings of Magic Aura to conceal the auras and items separately.

Spells are protected, magic items depends on the DM (I rule you need MA for items).

Eldariel
2011-11-18, 02:20 PM
This doesn't quite make sense to me. If this reading were true, trying to scry on an area with a mind blanked person in it would show all their disembodied gear floating in space.

In other words, Mind Blank implicitly protects your equipment as well.

Well, spells that actually do it call it out. Invisibility, for example, spells out your gear is covered also. Most offensive spells fall under "attended object"/"worn object" rules which covers them. But that doesn't change the fact that they are separate entities.

I think it's fair enough to houserule that particular kink away by e.g. making the Blanked target invisible as per invisibility while scrying.


Spells are protected, magic items depends on the DM (I rule you need MA for items).

Forgot something about spells' auras; you are right.

Psyren
2011-11-18, 03:00 PM
Well, spells that actually do it call it out. Invisibility, for example, spells out your gear is covered also. Most offensive spells fall under "attended object"/"worn object" rules which covers them. But that doesn't change the fact that they are separate entities.

Scrying isn't offensive though, and neither is Arcane Sight. It's just recon. So why would Mind Blank protect your gear under one and not the other? It's not like it spells out that your gear is hidden from the scrying sensor, only that you are.

Emperor Tippy
2011-11-18, 03:03 PM
Scrying isn't offensive though, and neither is Arcane Sight. It's just recon. So why would Mind Blank protect your gear under one and not the other? It's not like it spells out that your gear is hidden from the scrying sensor, only that you are.
Most scrying can't actually target objects.

Psyren
2011-11-18, 04:21 PM
Most scrying can't actually target objects.

Not sure what you mean; I'm not referring to targeted stuff at all. Even things like Clairvoyance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clairaudienceClairvoyance.htm) won't pick up a mind-blanked person. Again, by Eldariel's reading it would show all their equipment floating around.

Neither scrying effects nor arcane sight are attacks.

Jzadek
2011-11-19, 08:34 PM
Okay, so the fighter has kind of thrown me off the build I was developing by switching to wizard (evoker). Most of this remains helpful, but if anyone has any advice pertaining to fighter-killing, I'm afraid it is now a lot less useful. Now, how should I proceed? I was thinking Cleric, Magic domain, but if anyone has any better ideas (or ideas on how to build one) please, go ahead.

Rubik
2011-11-22, 07:45 PM
Extend Spell shouldn't work with Time Stop. Its duration is technically InstantaneousI don't see that on any version of Time Stop. The duration is 1d4+1 apparent rounds. Extended that's 2x(1d4+1 apparent rounds).

Is your version different than the one I'm seeing?

Medic!
2011-11-22, 10:20 PM
Negative levels, lots and lots and lots of negative levels! currently working on a build for a one-shot "fright night" campaign that can shat out 112 to 124 (depending on crits, assuming no ranged touch misses or SR check failures) negative levels via enervation in a single round. not completely core, of course but still...

on the time stop thing, it would technically be possible via incantrix and arcane thesis and a feat here and there to maximize, empower, and extend it for a 14 rd duration

Emperor Tippy
2011-11-22, 10:26 PM
I don't see that on any version of Time Stop. The duration is 1d4+1 apparent rounds. Extended that's 2x(1d4+1 apparent rounds).

Is your version different than the one I'm seeing?

WotC ruled somewhere that Time Stop is an Instantaneous duration power that gives, as it's effect, 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time.

You can't extend or persist it, you can maximize and empower it.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-11-22, 10:54 PM
Negative levels, lots and lots and lots of negative levels! currently working on a build for a one-shot "fright night" campaign that can shat out 112 to 124 (depending on crits, assuming no ranged touch misses or SR check failures) negative levels via enervation in a single round. not completely core, of course but still...Point of pedantry... Enervation does not deal damage, it bestows negative levels, thus it is not a weapon-like spell, and cannot crit.

However, if one is a Rogue, and Sneak Attack applied to the attack (within 30' and opponent is denied dex bonus to AC), then it would do additional d6's of negative energy damage. Theoretically, at that point it could crit, but since sneak attack dice are not multiplied on a crit, it would do nothing extra.

Medic!
2011-11-22, 11:07 PM
Since negative levels from energy drain done by undead can crit and deal 2x negative levels, I see no reason for enervation (as an attack requiring an attack roll) to not crit. (regardless in our games it works this way, so i'm happy)

I'm not too sure about sneak attack via enervation converting precision damage to negative energy however...sounds shady

EDIT: Went back and hit up Complete Arcane just to be sure, enervation is specifically listed as bestowing 2d4 negative levels on a critical hit, and you are indeed correct where I am not about the sneak attack damage being negative energy with enervation

Malachei
2011-11-23, 05:36 AM
WotC ruled somewhere that Time Stop is an Instantaneous duration power that gives, as it's effect, 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time.

You can't extend or persist it, you can maximize and empower it.

This. Because a persistable time stop ruling would speed you up so greatly that you have one full day of apparent time per persisted time stop... plus your normal day. Would break the game in so many ways. Thanks, but no thanks.