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t209
2011-11-18, 11:55 AM
Who is more evil?
Who will win in a fight? (Both army and duel)
Ulfric Stormcloack (Skyrim)- Jarl of Windhelm who killed the king of skyrim and started the civil war. He is also a racist (both Non Nords and non Humans). (Former Soldier turned Noble)
Army- Stormcloaks Rebels
Daimyo Kubota (order of the stick)- Daimyo of House Kubota who tried to kill both Lord Hinjo and House Kato. He also have deal with Qarr the imp. (Nobleman)
Army- Samurai and Ninjas

Arcane_Secrets
2011-11-19, 02:26 AM
Who is more evil?
Who will win in a fight? (Both army and duel)
Ulfric Stormcloack (Skyrim)- Jarl of Windhelm who killed the king of skyrim and started the civil war. He is also a racist (both Non Nords and non Humans). (Former Soldier turned Noble)
Army- Stormcloaks Rebels
Daimyo Kubota (order of the stick)- Daimyo of House Kubota who tried to kill both Lord Hinjo and House Kato. He also have deal with Qarr the imp. (Nobleman)
Army- Samurai and Ninjas

Even though I don't know anything about Ulfric beyond what you said, I don't think the fact that Kubota got one-shot disintegrated by Vaarsuvius and this never even remotely occured to him bodes well for his victory.

Archpaladin Zousha
2011-11-19, 03:31 AM
I'd say the odds are heavily in Ulric's favor, largely because of one factor: The Voice. For those of you who haven't played Skyrim, the Voice is the ability of a human to perform magical shouts that have various effects. This Shout, or Th'uum, is made of up to three dragon words that describe the desired effect. The longer the shout, the more powerful the effect. In Skyrim, this is how Dragons "breathe fire." Rather than having flame in their lungs, they shout the word for fire, which projects it as if they were exhaling it.

All Elder Scrolls dragons can do this, and a very select few people can too. In Skyrim, Ulfric has this ability, utilizing it in military situations and in his assassination of the High King of Skyrim. Since Kubota relies on lackeys and scheming to win, in a straight up fight, Ulfric would mop the floor with him both militarily and personally, since Ulfric used the Voice to win large scale battles as well, knocking enemies from their walls with Shouts and such. The Voice is a huge advantage that, from what I saw of Kubota, he couldn't nullify to put himself on an equal footing with Ulfric.

Mixt
2011-11-19, 03:01 PM
The Voice basically turns you into a (Very) minor Reality Warper.

It's a case of demanding of reality that so and so happens, which causes said thing to happen. All you have to do is shout the draconic words for the effect you want really loud and there you go.

For example, FUS DO RAH!

And the enemy is thrown across the room, or over the edge of the nearby cliff, or into the path of a rampaging giant...

Other examples include slowing down time, creating a thunderstorm, breathing fire, breathing ice, imbuing your foes with mindless terror that causes them to run away screaming, giving yourself a short burst of super speed, mind controlling animals into helping you, and so on.

As mentioned, all dragons are capable of doing this, as are the Dragonborn, due to having the soul of a dragon despite having a mortal body.

Anyone who isn't either a dragon or a dragonborn has to spend years of training to pull off even the simplest of shouts.

Hey reality, i demand that guy in front of me be sent flying, so FUS DO RAH!
Oh look at him fly...ouch, that's gotta hurt, smacking into a mountainside like that...

Also, a quote.


A battle between two dragons is actually a deadly verbal debate

Talking things to death taken to a whole new level.

The Glyphstone
2011-11-21, 09:44 AM
A magic-using warrior king against a minor scheming aristocrat? No contest here at all.

t209
2011-11-21, 10:16 AM
A magic-using warrior king against a minor scheming aristocrat? No contest here at all.

How about evilness contest?
A jarl who killed the king, plunge his country into chaos, and racist towards non humans. Stormcloak
A daimyo who tried the kill the king and plan to take throne even in deseprate time. Kubota

Tiki Snakes
2011-11-21, 10:54 AM
That's a very one dimensional reading of the whole Stormcloak issue, though. I've not been chasing it up in game much, but already I know quite well that it's infinately more involved and grayscale than that.

Weezer
2011-11-22, 12:41 AM
How about evilness contest?
A jarl who killed the king, plunge his country into chaos, and racist towards non humans. Stormcloak


A more favorable interpretation would be to say:
A jarl who killed the king in fair and traditional combat as the first step in his nationalist revolution to free his land from the Imperial yoke.

t209
2011-11-22, 02:59 PM
A more favorable interpretation would be to say:
A jarl who killed the king in fair and traditional combat as the first step in his nationalist revolution to free his land from the Imperial yoke.

Actually, according to Elderscrolls Wiki, Ulfric killed him during conversation. http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Ulfric_Stormcloak

Weezer
2011-11-22, 03:43 PM
Actually, according to Elderscrolls Wiki, Ulfric killed him during conversation. http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Ulfric_Stormcloak

Actually all the wiki says is:
"Ulfric kills the high king of Skyrim in Solitude, through use of the Thu'um, or Shout."

And the Imperials say he murdered the king unfairly while the Stormcloaks say he killed him in honorable combat. There isn't any way of figuring out who is right, which is why I said I was giving a favorable interpretation, not an unbiased one. I simply was supplying the Stormcloak party line as opposition to the Imperial party line given at first.

Gaelbert
2011-11-22, 03:45 PM
A more favorable interpretation would be to say:
A jarl who killed the king in fair and traditional combat as the first step in his nationalist revolution to free his land from the Imperial yoke.

Yeah. A lot of the Stormcloaks are racist, but Ulfric himself? I remember he gave a pretty inspiring speech about the reasons he was fighting, and racism was not on that list. He even talked about how Skyrim was the home of everyone, not just Nords, and that they all had a reason to fight the Empire.

And as for the "plunged the nation into civil war," you know it takes two sides to fight a civil war. (Although I don't know if this could be considered a civil war, it's closer to a nationalist rebellion against the Empire, although not a revolution.) I'm struggling to find an example that's political, but I can think of a dozen or so civil wars that, at the very least, weren't started by "evil" people.

Tiki Snakes
2011-11-23, 12:06 AM
As I understand it, he challenged him to combat at such a time as he couldn't traditionally speaking decline. Not without risking a moot being called, or something. Thing is, the Voice is pretty handy and the old High King was a touch of a pencil pusher, so once he accepted it was already over.

This of course is all complicated by the whole Thalmor-basically-running-the-empire and the fact that Ulric was a legitimate war-hero up until the point they interfered and tried to get him arrested.*

*Just reached Markarth and boy, it has some interesting stuff to say about the first event in the uprising.

Fan
2011-11-23, 09:46 AM
As I understand it, he challenged him to combat at such a time as he couldn't traditionally speaking decline. Not without risking a moot being called, or something. Thing is, the Voice is pretty handy and the old High King was a touch of a pencil pusher, so once he accepted it was already over.

This of course is all complicated by the whole Thalmor-basically-running-the-empire and the fact that Ulric was a legitimate war-hero up until the point they interfered and tried to get him arrested.*

*Just reached Markarth and boy, it has some interesting stuff to say about the first event in the uprising.

This is probably too late, but DON'T DO THOSE QUESTS. EVER.

The whole city is bugged!:smalleek:

Tiki Snakes
2011-11-23, 09:55 AM
This is probably too late, but DON'T DO THOSE QUESTS. EVER.

The whole city is bugged!:smalleek:

Yeah, I have issues with Markarth. I don't mind the Bugs so much, but the lack of any non-Chaotic-Evil route through a quest that is introduced to you as a good and benevolent agreement to help a crusading priest, well. That made me spit fire and brimstone for a while last night. :smallfurious:

But all of that is getting a little off-topic and I'm trying very hard not to rant too much about that one quest.

Anyway, given the game's portrayal of Ulfric as being a greyscale character in a very muddy greyscale situation, I think it's safe to say that Daimyo Kubota and his petty scheming is by far and away the more legitimately evil in this match up.

t209
2011-11-30, 02:31 PM
I forgot One thing...
Ulfric is an agent for Elf Nazis called Thalmor.

Lamech
2011-11-30, 03:12 PM
Yeah, I have issues with Markarth. I don't mind the Bugs so much, but the lack of any non-Chaotic-Evil route through a quest that is introduced to you as a good and benevolent agreement to help a crusading priest, well. That made me spit fire and brimstone for a while last night. :smallfurious:



Actually you get conveniently attacked and can legitimately self-defense him to death. Alternatively cast flame cloak or flame rune before hand. Then he committed suicide! Then if you want to be good ignore the rest of the quest.
But yes, guy with power to alter reality>scheming aristocrat.

Ursus the Grim
2011-11-30, 05:30 PM
Other examples include slowing down time, creating a thunderstorm, breathing fire, breathing ice, imbuing your foes with mindless terror that causes them to run away screaming, giving yourself a short burst of super speed, mind controlling animals into helping you, and so on.


Let's not forget

Freezing a foe solid.
Detecting life.
Ghost sound.
Disarming foes nearby.
Clearing implement weather.


There's also these three from the main quest.
Forcing a dragon to the ground and making a demigod mortal, calling a dragon, and summoning a hero from what amounts to Valhalla.
I don't know if we ever learn what Words of Power Ulfric knows, though because he has the Thu'um and because its relatively easy to teach between those with it, he could in theory learn any.

Zen Monkey
2011-12-01, 12:55 PM
It also depends on the rules/setting. For example, in dungeons and dragons, most variations on the samurai are a joke and beaten by just about any other class. If Kubota is in Legend of the Five rings, a bushi-daimyo is a terrible thing that will destroy all but the most seasoned warriors and probably kill in one stroke.

t209
2011-12-02, 12:43 PM
It also depends on the rules/setting. For example, in dungeons and dragons, most variations on the samurai are a joke and beaten by just about any other class. If Kubota is in Legend of the Five rings, a bushi-daimyo is a terrible thing that will destroy all but the most seasoned warriors and probably kill in one stroke.

Ulfric can Fus Roh Dah on Kubota, Kubota's also lousy swordsman (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0592.html) and his only weapon is poison.
For Morality,
Ulfric is an agent/spy/ manchurian agent for Thalmor.
P.S- which alignment would you give for Ulfric Stormcloak?

t209
2011-12-14, 02:32 AM
Yeah. A lot of the Stormcloaks are racist, but Ulfric himself? I remember he gave a pretty inspiring speech about the reasons he was fighting, and racism was not on that list. He even talked about how Skyrim was the home of everyone, not just Nords, and that they all had a reason to fight the Empire.

And as for the "plunged the nation into civil war," you know it takes two sides to fight a civil war. (Although I don't know if this could be considered a civil war, it's closer to a nationalist rebellion against the Empire, although not a revolution.) I'm struggling to find an example that's political, but I can think of a dozen or so civil wars that, at the very least, weren't started by "evil" people.

But Ulfric is
A thalmore backed trouble maker.
P.S- What alignment would Ulfric be?

Mikeavelli
2011-12-14, 02:54 AM
Yeah. A lot of the Stormcloaks are racist, but Ulfric himself? I remember he gave a pretty inspiring speech about the reasons he was fighting, and racism was not on that list. He even talked about how Skyrim was the home of everyone, not just Nords, and that they all had a reason to fight the Empire.

And as for the "plunged the nation into civil war," you know it takes two sides to fight a civil war. (Although I don't know if this could be considered a civil war, it's closer to a nationalist rebellion against the Empire, although not a revolution.) I'm struggling to find an example that's political, but I can think of a dozen or so civil wars that, at the very least, weren't started by "evil" people.

Ulfric specifically discriminates against the Dunmer and Argonians in his own city. This was, in fact, the reason I decided to make my Dunmer Dovahkin support the imperials in the civil war.

Made especially awesome by the new Jarl immediately getting to work on solving the whole "Dunmer are living in squalor" problem.

-----

As for the thread as a whole, this really isn't any contest. The only thing Kubota has going for him is a blatant abuse of the political process to keep him safe while he schemes. He's not a very good warrior, doesn't inspire any loyalty in his allies, and appears to have honestly thought his private military forces would be sufficient to retake Azure city, which leads me to believe he doesn't have a realistic grasp of military strategy.

Ulfric's idea of blatantly abusing the political process is to throw down the gauntlet, and shout the high king to death in full view of the entire nation. He's an excellent warrior, successfully created a cult of personality that inspires loyalty in half a country, and would have won the civil war if he had an ace like the Dovahkin up his sleeve.

There's really no contest here. Ulfric as a character exists as a perfect counter to anything Kubota could throw at him.

Killer Angel
2011-12-14, 03:44 AM
As for the thread as a whole, this really isn't any contest. The only thing Kubota has going for him is a blatant abuse of the political process to keep him safe while he schemes. He's not a very good warrior, doesn't inspire any loyalty in his allies, and appears to have honestly thought his private military forces would be sufficient to retake Azure city, which leads me to believe he doesn't have a realistic grasp of military strategy.

Ulfric's idea of blatantly abusing the political process is to throw down the gauntlet, and shout the high king to death in full view of the entire nation. He's an excellent warrior, successfully created a cult of personality that inspires loyalty in half a country, and would have won the civil war if he had an ace like the Dovahkin up his sleeve.

There's really no contest here. Ulfric as a character exists as a perfect counter to anything Kubota could throw at him.

Indeed. Apparently, Kubota's only good in scheming, while remaining behind the curtains, but it's not sufficient against Ulfric.

t209
2011-12-14, 08:35 PM
He's not a very good warrior, doesn't inspire any loyalty in his allies, and appears to have honestly thought his private military forces would be sufficient to retake Azure city, which leads me to believe he doesn't have a realistic grasp of military strategy.
Well, he did have qarr as an advisor meaning that he could use a demon army from IFCC.

TheSummoner
2011-12-14, 11:32 PM
No... The IFCC didn't give two craps about Kubota. He was small time. Below their radar.

Qarr said that he tried several times to get a faustian pact for Kubota (not necessarily from the IFCC, but from ANYONE) and was turned down every time.

pffh
2011-12-15, 06:05 AM
Let's not forget

Freezing a foe solid.
Detecting life.
Ghost sound.
Disarming foes nearby.
Clearing implement weather.


There's also these three from the main quest.
Forcing a dragon to the ground and making a demigod mortal, calling a dragon, and summoning a hero from what amounts to Valhalla.
I don't know if we ever learn what Words of Power Ulfric knows, though because he has the Thu'um and because its relatively easy to teach between those with it, he could in theory learn any.

And then we have from lore examples of shouting someone blind, levelling city walls, moving mountains, destroying armies (although those were all dragonborns).

t209
2011-12-15, 02:18 PM
Ulfric specifically discriminates against the Dunmer and Argonians in his own city. This was, in fact, the reason I decided to make my Dunmer Dovahkin support the imperials in the civil war.

Made especially awesome by the new Jarl immediately getting to work on solving the whole "Dunmer are living in squalor" problem.

-----

As for the thread as a whole, this really isn't any contest. The only thing Kubota has going for him is a blatant abuse of the political process to keep him safe while he schemes. He's not a very good warrior, doesn't inspire any loyalty in his allies, and appears to have honestly thought his private military forces would be sufficient to retake Azure city, which leads me to believe he doesn't have a realistic grasp of military strategy.

Ulfric's idea of blatantly abusing the political process is to throw down the gauntlet, and shout the high king to death in full view of the entire nation. He's an excellent warrior, successfully created a cult of personality that inspires loyalty in half a country, and would have won the civil war if he had an ace like the Dovahkin up his sleeve.

There's really no contest here. Ulfric as a character exists as a perfect counter to anything Kubota could throw at him.

He is also
an Agent for Elf Nazis called Thalmor.

SDF
2011-12-15, 02:48 PM
@^:Ulfric isn't a Thalmor agent. The dossier states that they are attempting to use him, and tricked him into thinking he escaped on his own. They never turned him and he isn't knowingly working for them. It is also stated that a Stormcloak victory is not desired.

hunt11
2011-12-15, 03:34 PM
Just from my general experience, few people would willingly work with an organisation that tortured them in the past.

Lamech
2011-12-15, 04:01 PM
And then we have from lore examples of shouting someone blind, levelling city walls, moving mountains, destroying armies (although those were all dragonborns).

Storm call should pretty well flatten an army. Also we several ressurection shouts. (Summon a hero, Alduin's full-fledged ressurection shout, and the one that sends you back from Solvengrad). I think the only shout we have really seen him use has been FUS RO DA! though...
Oh and he definitly isn't working for the Thalmor.

t209
2011-12-20, 01:09 AM
How about sidekick battle?
Galmor Stonefist (Skyrim Fighter) vs Therkla (OOTS Ninja)

Don Julio Anejo
2011-12-20, 03:40 AM
Dammit people, you and your spoilers about Ulfric as a Thalmor. Well, it's a good thing I'm a loyal Imperial citizen and will hopefully get to kill him at one point or another. Nobody kills the king on my watch!

DeusMortuusEst
2011-12-20, 07:07 AM
Nobody kills the king on my watch!

Heh, just wait until you've [Serious spoiler alert!]
joined the Dark Brotherhood.

t209
2012-01-06, 04:26 PM
There's one positive thing about Ulfric
He never took the title of High King until the moot says so. He credited his men's courage instead of his own. He knew the future attack by Nazi Elf. I just played Stormcloak part of Skyrim and he's not a power monger.

Gullintanni
2012-01-09, 01:22 PM
-Lag induced double post-

Silly clogged forum servers :smalltongue:

Gullintanni
2012-01-09, 01:25 PM
And again, he's...

...not an agent for the Thalmor. The Thalmor don't want a Stormcloak victory. They want the war between the Empire and the Stormcloaks to last as long as possible and consume as many resources as possible to weaken their opposition.

Ulfric is not an active Thalmor agent.

It's really a matter of perspective. The Empire banned worship of the Nords favored god, Talos. In a world where the gods are more than mythical, where there's credible proof of their existence, then that's kind of a big deal. It may well be a war-worthy offense.

Cultural oppression isn't okay to Ulfric, so he duels/murders a king (depending on whose bias you accept) he feels is weak and refuses to bend knee to the Empire.

He IS somewhat racist; what with the Dunmer in Windhelm relegated to squalor, but his cause is right. Whether or not it's enough to justify war? Well, I suppose the answer to that will determine who you side with.

On topic - Daimyo Kubota is doomed. If the fight happens on Skyrim's terms, Kubota's just an aristrocrat who can't Shout. If the fight happens in D&D, then consider that speaking is a free action. :smallwink:

t209
2012-01-09, 02:44 PM
And again, he's...

...not an agent for the Thalmor. The Thalmor don't want a Stormcloak victory. They want the war between the Empire and the Stormcloaks to last as long as possible and consume as many resources as possible to weaken their opposition.

Ulfric is not an active Thalmor agent.

It's really a matter of perspective. The Empire banned worship of the Nords favored god, Talos. In a world where the gods are more than mythical, where there's credible proof of their existence, then that's kind of a big deal. It may well be a war-worthy offense.

Cultural oppression isn't okay to Ulfric, so he duels/murders a king (depending on whose bias you accept) he feels is weak and refuses to bend knee to the Empire.

He IS somewhat racist; what with the Dunmer in Windhelm relegated to squalor, but his cause is right. Whether or not it's enough to justify war? Well, I suppose the answer to that will determine who you side with.

On topic - Daimyo Kubota is doomed. If the fight happens on Skyrim's terms, Kubota's just an aristrocrat who can't Shout. If the fight happens in D&D, then consider that speaking is a free action. :smallwink:
After playing as Stormcloak Nord, I have seen that Ulfric is not the one I think.
How about battle between Galmor Stonefist and Therkla? Galmor could turn Therkla in to 50%

Dr.Epic
2012-01-09, 03:05 PM
My money's on Ulfic.

Mikeavelli
2012-01-09, 07:05 PM
And again, he's...

...not an agent for the Thalmor. The Thalmor don't want a Stormcloak victory. They want the war between the Empire and the Stormcloaks to last as long as possible and consume as many resources as possible to weaken their opposition.

Ulfric is not an active Thalmor agent.

It's really a matter of perspective. The Empire banned worship of the Nords favored god, Talos. In a world where the gods are more than mythical, where there's credible proof of their existence, then that's kind of a big deal. It may well be a war-worthy offense.

Cultural oppression isn't okay to Ulfric, so he duels/murders a king (depending on whose bias you accept) he feels is weak and refuses to bend knee to the Empire.

He IS somewhat racist; what with the Dunmer in Windhelm relegated to squalor, but his cause is right. Whether or not it's enough to justify war? Well, I suppose the answer to that will determine who you side with.

On topic - Daimyo Kubota is doomed. If the fight happens on Skyrim's terms, Kubota's just an aristrocrat who can't Shout. If the fight happens in D&D, then consider that speaking is a free action. :smallwink:

To be fair, this would take at least a standard action, sorta've like truenaming, or power word: FUSRODAH!

Related, has anyone created a truenamer 'fix' based on Skyrim Shouts? Because that'd be awesome.

Gullintanni
2012-01-10, 09:35 AM
To be fair, this would take at least a standard action, sorta've like truenaming, or power word: FUSRODAH!

Related, has anyone created a truenamer 'fix' based on Skyrim Shouts? Because that'd be awesome.

I agree it'd probably be a standard action...you know, for balance reasons...but Dragons can move and use the Voice while in flight. The Dovahkiin can run and use the Voice simultaneously. This would be the equivalent of taking a move action and a standard action at the same time, which is typically impossible.

You could easily justfiy using the Voice as a free action, but the cool-down time on it would prevent it from being spammable, so it wouldn't be that broken anyway.

t209
2012-02-01, 11:29 PM
How about Ulfric have to deal with Kubota's charmed monsters?

Coidzor
2012-02-02, 03:19 AM
How about Ulfric have to deal with Kubota's charmed monsters?

Most of them haven't been terribly individually threatening and mostly just served to om nom nom defenseless civvies.

Even concentrated they wouldn't be all that much of a threat to him, as he's at least the equivalent of a mid-level adventurer if not high level.


Related, has anyone created a truenamer 'fix' based on Skyrim Shouts? Because that'd be awesome.

There was some talk about it, but I can't actually find the thread over in homebrew anymore... :smallconfused: I think I nat 1'd my search check only to find the DM is running skill fumbles.

Killer Angel
2012-02-02, 05:41 AM
To be fair, this would take at least a standard action, sorta've like truenaming.

If we consider Ulfric a Truenamer, then Kubota could stand a chance... :smalltongue:

t209
2012-02-02, 12:41 PM
If we consider Ulfric a Truenamer, then Kubota could stand a chance... :smalltongue:

Unless Ulfric split Kubota's head like a log if he can resist the poison from Kubota's ring. How about putting a Galmar Stonefist and Therkla in there?
For evilness, Kubota use monsters to kill his own people instead of Guerilla Raid on Gobbotopia. Ulfric, however, is an honorable warrior and protect his own people (if you think the massacre that is told during the treaty is false)