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llamamushroom
2011-11-21, 06:52 AM
Before I begin, I'd like to say that this is my first homebrew (discounting a terrible weather-control PrC...), so believe me when I say that I do not know balance. At all. For all I know, this class would die in round one, or one-hit the BBEG at level 1. Please help :smalleek:. Also, I've included acronyms in the title that hopefully mean what I think they mean, but if you don't think they mean what I think they mean, please inform me - it'd be a help.

And now, to business!

To business! *chink*
1

Angelic Vessel

http://supernatural.wikia.com/wiki/File:Castiel_shows_his_wings.png
Obligatory reference image is to the inspiration for this class - the angels in Supernatural.

Description
Angelic Vessels are pious men and women who willingly allow themselves to be the vessel for an angel, giving their bodies over to the forces of good and law. Alternatively, they could simply be the vessel for an angel's spark, giving them access to a small fraction of the angels' unimaginable power, but allowing them to retain their own minds.

Alignment
Within one step of Lawful Good (see Fallen and Rogue Angels)

Hit Die
d10

Class Skills
The Angelic Vesselís class skills (and the key abilities for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge: Religion (Int), Knowledge: The Planes (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Use Magic Device (Cha)

Skill Points at First Level
(4 + Intelligence Modifier) x 4

Skill Points at Each Additional Level
4 + Intelligence Modifier

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Righteous Touch Damage|Spell-Like Abilities
1|+1|+2|+0|+0|Angelic Traits (Vision, Saves vs Poison), Speed Bonus (+10), AC Bonus, Righteous Touch, Smite (Evil)|1d6|
2|+2|+3|+0|+0|Angel's Grace|1d6|Detect Evil
3|+3|+3|+1|+1|Damage Reduction, Angelic Traits (acid 5, cold 5)|1d6|Protection from Chaos/Evil
4|+4|+4|+1|+1|Speed Bonus (+20)|1d8|See Invisibility
5|+5|+4|+1|+1|Smite (Chaos), Angelic Traits (electricity 5, fire 5)|1d8|
6|+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|Use Magic Device|1d8|Detect Chaos
7|+7/+2|+5|+2|+2|Disease Immunity|1d8|Invisibility
8|+8/+3|+6|+2|+2|Speed Bonus (+30), Angelic Traits (acid 10, cold 10, petrification immunity)|1d10|Shield of Faith
9|+9/+4|+6|+3|+3|Raise from Perdition|1d10|Discern Lies
10|+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|Smite (Sanctified), Angelic Traits (electricity 10, fire 10, Protective Aura)|1d10|Dimension Door
11|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3|Angelflight|1d10|Tongues
12|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|Deathless, Speed Bonus (+40)|2d6|
13|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4|Angelic Traits (acid 15, cold 15)|2d6|
14|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4||2d6|Teleport
15|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5|Smite (Unholy)|2d6|Planeshift
16|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5|Speed Bonus (+50)|2d8|
17|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5||2d8|Greater Teleport
18|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|Soulcharge, Angelic Traits (acid immunity, cold immunity)|2d8|
19|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6|Righteous Fury|2d8|
20|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|Eternal, Speed Bonus (+60)|2d10|Storm of Vengeance[/table]

Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Angelic Vessels gain proficiency with Angel Blades only, and with light armor, but not shields of any kind.

Angelic Traits: Angelic Vessels have low-light vision and darkvision to an additional 60 feet. If they already have low-light vision, they gain a +2 on Spot checks made in low-light conditions.
Vessels have a +4 racial bonus on saves against poison.
At 3rd level, they gain resistance to acid 5 and cold 5
At 5th level, they gain resistance to electricity 5 and fire 5
At 8th level, they gain resistance to acid 10 and cold 10 and are immune to petrification
At 10th level, they gain a Protective Aura and resistance to electricity 10 and fire 10
At 13th level, they gain resistance to acid 15 and cold 15
At 18th level, they gain immunity to acid and cold

Protective Aura (Su): Against attacks made or effects created by evil creatures, this ability provides a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws to anyone within 20 feet of the angel. Otherwise, it functions as a magic circle against evil effect and a lesser globe of invulnerability, both with a radius of 20 feet (caster level equals angelís HD). This aura can be dispelled, but the angel can create it again as a free action on its next turn.

AC Bonus (Ex): Angelic Vessels are protected by their gods, and have a sixth sense that lets them avoid even unanticipated attacks. When unencumbered and wearing light armor or no armor, the vessel adds their Charisma bonus (if any) to their AC (untyped bonus). This bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks or when the Angelic Vessel is flat-footed. They lose this bonus when they are immobilized or helpless, when they wear medium or heavy armor, when they carry a shield, when they carry a medium or heavy load, or when they have no Righteous Touch points in reserve.

Speed Bonus (Ex): At 1st level, 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, an Angelic Vessel gains a 10ft enhancement bonus to their speed. So, a 12th level human vessel would have a movement speed of 60ft (30 ft base, +30 ft bonus). They lose this bonus if they wear medium or heavy armor, carry a shield, carry a medium or heavy load, or have no Righteous Touch points in reserve.

During an Angelic Vesselís turn, they may use a movement action to add a dodge bonus to their AC equal to one tenth of the Speed Bonus given by this class. This bonus lasts until the beginning of their next turn. For example, a 12th level vessel can use a move action to add a +3 dodge bonus to their AC. If the vessel would be denied their Speed Bonus, they may not use this ability.

Righteous Touch (Su): An Angelic Vessel with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (their own or othersí) with a touch. A vessel may have up to (2 x charisma modifier x class level) Righteous Touch points in reserve at any one time. Once per day, at a time chosen by her in the same way that clerics choose when to prepare spells, her reserve of RTP is refilled to its maximum. Each point can heal one hit point of damage, and any number of points can be expended in each touch. For instance, a third level Angelic Vessel with a Charisma of 16 would be able to heal a maximum of (2 * 3 * 3) 18 hit points with one touch.

Beginning at 11th level, you can choose to spend some of the healing bestowed by your Righteous Touch to remove other harmful conditions affecting the target.
For every 5 points of your healing ability you expend, you can cure 1 point of ability damage or remove the dazed, fatigued, or sickened condition from one individual.
For every 10 points of your healing ability you expend, you can remove the exhausted, nauseated, poisoned, or stunned condition from one individual.
For every 20 points of your healing ability you expend, you can remove a negative level or the blinded, deafened, or diseased condition from one individual.
You can remove a condition (or more than one condition) and heal damage with the same touch, so long as you expend the required number of points. For example, if you wanted to heal 12 points of damage and remove the blinded and exhausted conditions from a target, you would have to expend 42 points (12 hit points restored plus 20 points for blinded plus 10 points for exhausted).

Alternatively, a vessel can use these points to damage the unrighteous (and from an angelic perspective, a saint would be unrighteous). A number of Righteous Touch points up to equal with your Angelic Vessel level (minimum 1) may be channeled into a melee touch attack that deals lethal damage according to table 1: The Angelic Vessel, plus the number of Righteous Touch points expended. A vessel may choose to deal subdual/nonlethal damage instead, in which case they deal twice as much damage as a lethal attack. For example, if a medium-sized vessel of third level with a strength of 17 chooses to channel three points into their attack and have it deal lethal damage, it would be a melee touch attack that deals 1d6 + 6 damage (+3 from Strength, +3 from points). If the same vessel chose to deal nonlethal damage with that attack, it would deal 2d6 + 12 damage.

A Righteous Touch may be used as part of a full attack action.

Smite (Su): From their first level, an Angelic vessel is able to use Smite Evil a number of times per day equal to their Angelic Vessel level, but only on attacks using their Righteous Touch ability. This allows them to add their Charisma modifier to their attack bonus, and their Angelic Vessel level to the damage dealt, but only if the target is of an evil alignment. If the target is not evil, they are not damaged at all from the attack, but any Righteous Touch points and Smite usages are expended. If the attack deals nonlethal damage, the additional damage from a smite attempt is not doubled.

For example, a medium sized Angelic Vessel of third level with a Charisma of 16 and a Strength of 17 may choose to smite a target by expending 1 Righteous Touch point to deal nonlethal damage. This would give an extra +3 to attack, and would deal 2d6 + 11 damage (+2 from the Righteous Touch point, +6 from Strength, +3 from level). If the target is not evil, the attack deals no damage, but the Righteous Touch point and Smite use are still expended.

At 5th level, the Angelic Vessel gains the Smite (Chaos) ability, which is similar to Smite Evil, but the target must be of a Chaotic alignment. Smite Evil and Smite Chaos cannot both be applied to the same attack. They do not count towards the same maximum (i.e. a fifth-level vessel may use 5 Smite (Evil) attacks and 5 Smite (Chaos) attacks).

At 10th level, the Angelic Vessel gains Sanctified Smite. They may add 1d8 per 4 levels of damage to any smite attack they make.

At 15th level, Smite Evil now works on any non-good target, and Smite Chaos works on any non-lawful target. Any smite attack that deals nonlethal damage has the damage from the smite doubled also. Any smite attack that targets an outsider deals double damage (so a nonlethal attack on an outsider would deal quadruple the amount a lethal attack on a non-outsider would).

Spell-Like Abilities (SLA): Angelic Vessels gain spell-like abilities that function only if they have Righteous Touch points held in reserve. They may use many of their abilities at will, but more powerful abilities that require more than 20 points to be held in reserve can only be used a number of times per day equal to the vessel's Charisma modifier. The vessel gains these abilities as they progress though the class. All caster levels are equal to their Angelic Vessel level, and saves are Charisma based (where applicable). ďRTP Reserve xĒ means that the vessel must have x Righteous Touch points in reserve to use this ability.

Note: SLAs that mimic the same spell (such as Teleport (self only) and Teleport) both count towards the same maximum. So, a 14th level vessel with a Charisma of 16 may use Teleport (self only) twice and Teleport once in one day, or any combination of the two such that their combined uses adds up to the vessel's Charisma modifier.

At 2nd level, they gain Detect Evil as the spell. RTP Reserve 1
At 3rd level, they gain Protection from Evil (self only) and Protection from Chaos (self only) as the spells. RTP Reserve 5
At 4th level, they gain See Invisibility as the spell. RTP Reserve 5
At 6th level, they gain Detect Chaos as the spell. RTP Reserve 1
At 7th level, they gain Invisibility (self only) as the spell. RTP Reserve 10
At 8th level, they gain Shield of Faith as the spell. RTP Reserve 5
At 9th level, they gain Discern Lies as the spell. RTP Reserve 1
At 10th level, they gain Dimension Door (self only) as the spell. RTP Reserve 20
At 11th level, they are constantly under the effect of Tongues as the spell. RTP Reserve 5
At 14th level, they gain Teleport (self only) as the spell. RTP Reserve 40
At 14th level, they also gain Teleport as the spell. RTP Reserve 60
At 15th level, they gain Plane Shift (self only) as the spell. RTP Reserve 45
At 15th level, they also gain Plane Shift as the spell. RTP Reserve 65
At 17th level, they gain Greater Teleport (self only) as the spell. RTP Reserve 65
At 17th level, they also gain Greater Teleport as the spell. RTP Reserve 85
At 20th level, they gain Storm of Vengeance as the spell. RTP Reserve 100

Angelís Grace (Ex): At 2nd level, an Angelic Vessel gains a bonus to saves equal to their Charisma bonus. In addition, they may, as an immediate action, add one tenth of their Speed Bonus to one save until the beginning of their next action. If they do so, the vessel cannot move more than their base speed during their next move action. This ability cannot be used if the vessel has applied their Speed Bonus as a dodge bonus to AC, or in any situation in which they would be denied their Speed Bonus.

Damage Reduction (Ex): Beginning at 3rd level, Angelic Vessels have damage reduction equal to one half their AV level/chaotic or DR = 1/2 AV level/evil. They choose which at 3rd level, and cannot change it afterwards. This only applies as long as the vessel has RTP. At 20th level, it changes to DR = 1/2 AV level/chaotic and evil.

Use Magic Device (Su): From 6th level, Angelic Vessels can take 10 on a Use Magic Device check, as long as they expend 5 RTP to do so. Otherwise, they may roll as normal.

Disease Immunity (Ex): At 7th level, vessels are immune to all mundane poisons and diseases.

Raise from Perdition (SLA): At 9th level, the Angelic Vessel gains Raise from Perdition. This ability functions as the Raise Dead spell, with the following exceptions. The target has died within 1 day. The duration is instantaneous if the subjectís body is whole. If it is not, it takes 1 week, and the subject is returned fully healed and restored. Regardless of how long it takes, the Angelic Vessel must expend their maximum Righteous Touch points for the day on the target, and for each day of the abilityís duration.

At 13th level, this ability improves. If the target died within 1 day of beginning the ability, then it only takes half of the vesselís maximum RTP for the day. Additionally, they may now revive creatures that died within 1 day per Angelic Vessel level, though if the target died more than 1 day before starting the ability it takes the vesselís full RTP allotment for each day.

At 18th level, the target may have died within 1 year per AV level (but requires the maximum RTP for 2 weeks). If the target died within 1 day, the ability only takes one quarter the AVís maximum RTP. If the target must be restored, the ability takes half the maximum RTP, but only 2 days.

Note: this ability has a material component of 5000 gp worth of diamonds.

Angelflight (Su): At 11th level, an Angelic Vessel begins to stretch its wings. For a number of rounds per day equal to twice their charisma bonus, the vessel gains a fly speed equal to their ground movement speed with poor maneouverablility. This flight can be extended by expending 10 RTP per additional round of flight. An Angelic Vessel loses its fly speed if it does not have any RTP left, and begins falling at the end of the round in which its last RTP is expended.

At 14th level, their maneouverability increases to average, to good at 17th level, and perfect at 20th level.

From 14th level, the Angelic Vesselís fly speed is equal to twice their movement speed.

Additionally, at 17th level, there is no maximum number of rounds for an angel to remain in flight.

Finally, from 20th level, a vessel may fly with a medium or heavy load.

Deathless (Ex): At 12th level, vessels are immune to all death effects and do not age (they incur no penalties for aging and do not die of old age).


Soulcharge (Su): From 18th level, a number of times per day equal to their Charisma modifier, an Angelic Vessel that uses their Righteous Touch ability to deal nonlethal damage can regain RTP equal to half the damage dealt in this way.

From 19th level, a number of times per day equal to their Charisma modifier, an Angelic Vessel that uses their Sanctified Smite ability may regain 1d8/4 levels RTP.

Righteous Fury (Su): From 19th level, and Angelic Vessel does not need to sully his or her hands in order to purge the world of the unrighteous. Instead, they may use their Righteous Touch ability (both for healing and damage, though not their Smite abilities) as a ranged touch attack. The range of this attack is 60ft, and may be extended by an additional 60ft for every 30 RTP the vessel expends (note: points used in this way do not count towards the usual maximum). They do not add their strength or dexterity modifiers to damage if they use this ability.

Additionally, the threatened area for their Righteous Touch now extends to the boundaries of their Protective Aura.

Eternal (Ex): At 20th level, an Angelic Vessel cannot be killed. Any effect that would reduce them to below -10 hit points causes them to be instead reduced to -9 hit points, stabilized, and instantly dismissed (as the spell) to their own paradise in one of the good-aligned outer planes. This ability only functions if the vessel has at least one Righteous Touch point in reserve, and is countered by any effect that blocks planar travel. They regain hit points at the normal rate for unattended, resting characters. The vessel cannot leave his or her paradise of their own power (such as their Plane Shift SLA), though they may be summoned with Greater Planar Ally, wish, miracle or similar effects.

Note: An Angelic Vessel may be summoned with Greater Planar Ally, no matter how high their HD is. 1000gp/HD worth of diamonds must be used up in the attempt.

The only ways to kill an Angelic Vessel are with an Angel Blade, with a good- or lawful-aligned weapon, by reducing them to -10 hit points in their paradise, or by having them leave a circle of lit Unholy Oil.

Fallen and Rogue Angels

If an Angelic Vessel's alignment changes to more than one step away from Lawful Good, they are no longer considered angels. They do not lose any abilities (except as noted below), and can continue to take levels in the class, with the following changes.

Fallen Angels are of either the Lawful Evil (LE) alignment, or True Neutral (TN) after having been Neutral Good (NG). Any references to "evil" in their class features (such as Smite Evil, Protection from Evil, Magic Circle Against Evil, etc.) are changed to "good", and any references to "good" are changed to "evil".

Rogue Angels are of either Chaotic Good (CG) alignment, or True Neutral (TN) after having been Lawful Neutral (LN). Any references to "chaos" or "chaotic" in their class features (such as Smite Chaos, etc.) are changed to "law" or "lawful", and any references to "law" or "lawful" are changed to "chaos" or "chaotic".

Rogue Fallen Angels are of the Chaotic Evil (CE) alignment. They die. Horribly. Alternatively, combine the two above to taste.

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Well, what do you think? Care to help a poor, misguided, bad-at-balancing newbie (though hopefully not n00b) make a half-decent class?

Also, I need help coming up with what, exactly, an Angel Blade should be. All I've got so far is that it's a silver spike that any Angelic Vessel can start with for free, and requires exotic weapon proficiency for anyone else to use. Other than that... umm... yeah.

Changes Log
Discern Lies moved from 3rd level to 9th level
Damage Reduction reduced from level/evil to 1/2 level/evil (and chaos, whatever)
SLAs with an RTP reserve requirement of more than 11 changed from at will to Cha/day
Text regarding material component of Raise from Perdition added
Eternal moved to 20th level, can be killed by a good- or law-aligned weapon
Voidsoul Smite removed
Soulcharge changed from at will to Cha/day
Added Strength bonus to example Smite
SLAs with an RTP reserve requirement of more than 11 changed from Cha/day to having a cost roughly equal to the reserve -10
Damage Reduction moved from 1st level to 3rd level
Reformatted
Added ability types to all class features
Changed high-RTP reserve SLAs to over 20, made them usable Cha/day.
Added Craft, Profession and UMD as class skills
Changed UMD class feature from "temporary skill points" to "5 RTP=take 10"
Added column in the table - Righteous Touch Damage
Changed RT from "melee touch attack that deals damage as an unarmed strike" to "melee touch attack that deals damage according to the table"
Put Angelic Traits all through the table
Added "per day" to description of Angelflight, increased RTP cost from 2 to 10
Changed RT to "# of points from 1 to level" instead of "any number" for offensive uses
Changed smite to lvl/day instead of at will, +lvl damage instead of +(Cha+lvl)
Changed wording of #RTP/day to prevent stacking of unused points

Mystral
2011-11-21, 07:35 AM
First off, very nice for a first try. Your class seems to be inspired by the paladin, although it vastly outclasses him. As the paladin is tier 5, that's not so big of a problem, though.

There are some issues with balancing, though:

You should only give SLA at appropriate levels. Discern Lies is a level 4 spell, so one shouldn't get it before level 7.
Damage reduction equal to your level /evil is huge. Maybe lower that a bit.
Having your abilities at will, without some cost attached to them, is very powerfull, too. Teleport at will can and will break every campaign.
I don't like that they are able to raise someone without any costs attached.
I REALLY don't like that they can't be killed. That's nothing that has any buisness in the hands of an NPC, even a lich is easier to kill than this.
Being able to regenerate the points without any limit is very strong, too.

llamamushroom
2011-11-21, 07:56 AM
First off, very nice for a first try. Your class seems to be inspired by the paladin, although it vastly outclasses him. As the paladin is tier 5, that's not so big of a problem, though.

There are some issues with balancing, though:

You should only give SLA at appropriate levels. Discern Lies is a level 4 spell, so one shouldn't get it before level 7.
Damage reduction equal to your level /evil is huge. Maybe lower that a bit.
Having your abilities at will, without some cost attached to them, is very powerfull, too. Teleport at will can and will break every campaign.
I don't like that they are able to raise someone without any costs attached.
I REALLY don't like that they can't be killed. That's nothing that has any buisness in the hands of an NPC, even a lich is easier to kill than this.
Being able to regenerate the points without any limit is very strong, too.

Thanks for taking a look - I appreciate it. And yeah, it is heavily based on the paladin, as that was the role (both party-wise and story-wise) that I thought it most resembled.

*facepalm* How did I miss the Discern Lies thing? Thanks for pointing it out. I did try to follow the appropriate levels thing for the abilities. Did I miss any others?

I can definitely understand the DR problem. Would 1/2 level (rounded down, minimum 1) be a good fix for that, do you think?

I'd like to keep the lower-level SLAs at will, so perhaps any of them with an RTP of more than 10 can only be done a number of times per day equal to the Charisma modifier?

Sorry, I should have made it clearer with the Raise from Perdition description - you still have to pay the 5000 gp worth of diamonds. That should definitely go somewhere in there, yeah.

Regarding not being killed - I disagree with it being harder than a lich, but agree that it is too powerful (especially as a level 13 ability). How does this sound as a change - it becomes a 20th level capstone (more appropriate, methinks), and change "Angel Blade" to "good- or law-aligned weapon". That means I can scrap the current capstone (which seems neither capstone-esque nor thematically appropriate), which gets rid of part of the "infinite points! Bwahaha!" thing I've got going on.

I'll change Soulcharge to Cha/day - is that ok?

Thanks again for your input!

Mystral
2011-11-21, 08:44 AM
*facepalm* How did I miss the Discern Lies thing? Thanks for pointing it out. I did try to follow the appropriate levels thing for the abilities. Did I miss any others?

None, as far as I can see.


I can definitely understand the DR problem. Would 1/2 level (rounded down, minimum 1) be a good fix for that, do you think?

Sounds way better. I'd give it at level 3, though, which is at the moment a dead level. This way, the DR wouldn't stay 1 for 3 levels. DR 2 at level 4 is still noticeable over the course of a day, but nothing gamebreaking.


I'd like to keep the lower-level SLAs at will, so perhaps any of them with an RTP of more than 10 can only be done a number of times per day equal to the Charisma modifier?

Charisma modifier teleports and greater teleports would still be way to many (You are looking at a charisma modifier of at least +5 at those levels) Maybe attach a cost of the required RTP/5 (or something else), rounded down, to the use? This way, the lower level ones are still at will, but the high ones have a cost, and the more you use them, the less options you have remaining, as it should be. This approach would need some number tweaking, because at level 14 and with charisma 20, a character will have 140 points. Maybe you should lower the amount of rtp one gets?

The rest looks fine for me.

llamamushroom
2011-11-21, 09:23 AM
Sounds way better. I'd give it at level 3, though, which is at the moment a dead level. This way, the DR wouldn't stay 1 for 3 levels. DR 2 at level 4 is still noticeable over the course of a day, but nothing gamebreaking.

Done - great idea.


Charisma modifier teleports and greater teleports would still be way to many (You are looking at a charisma modifier of at least +5 at those levels) Maybe attach a cost of the required RTP/5 (or something else), rounded down, to the use? This way, the lower level ones are still at will, but the high ones have a cost, and the more you use them, the less options you have remaining, as it should be. This approach would need some number tweaking, because at level 14 and with charisma 20, a character will have 140 points. Maybe you should lower the amount of rtp one gets?

The rest looks fine for me.

I've made the high-reserve SLAs have an RTP cost of roughly 10 less than the reserve. I know, it's inelegant, but I'd rather not cut down on the RTP because it's basically the only way this class can deal damage, especially at lower levels. Bear in mind that the class doesn't get improved unarmed strikes or whatnot - the only reason they do more than 1d3 damage is because they can spend those points. Though perhaps a hard-and-fast rule like the current one isn't the way to go - pre-set levels, like a Psychic Warrior's power points, could work, too.

Thanks again for your help! :smallbiggrin:

Mystral
2011-11-21, 01:49 PM
..................

Mystral
2011-11-21, 01:50 PM
If I'd play this class, I'd dip one level fighter, go two handed and use the touch only for healing or for brutal death attacks. 280 nonlethal damage? Yes please.

By the way, at the moment, your class is not proficient with unarmed strikes.

Venetian Mask
2011-11-21, 05:36 PM
I'll run it as an npc vs. my players next sunday if you want me to. If I find anything I'll post it here. (it's a low level campaign though so I won't be able to explore the full class.)

llamamushroom
2011-11-21, 06:29 PM
If I'd play this class, I'd dip one level fighter, go two handed and use the touch only for healing or for brutal death attacks. 280 nonlethal damage? Yes please.

By the way, at the moment, your class is not proficient with unarmed strikes.

Ok, I was obviously unclear there, too (or possibly said the exact opposite of what I intended), as the "unarmed strike" thing is just for damage - the attack itself is a melee touch attack, sort of like the "die, undead, die!" aspect of Lay On Hands. How should I rephrase that, do you think?

Or maybe it should be an unarmed strike... full BAB against a touch AC is a bit much, isn't it.


I'll run it as an npc vs. my players next sunday if you want me to. If I find anything I'll post it here. (it's a low level campaign though so I won't be able to explore the full class.)

If you would, that would be awesome, thank you! I'm very much away from my group at the moment, so I won't be able to playtest at all. As to the low-level part, any data is good data as for as I'm concerned. :smallbiggrin:

Benly
2011-11-21, 06:52 PM
Charisma modifier teleports and greater teleports would still be way to many (You are looking at a charisma modifier of at least +5 at those levels)

Counterpoint: a spellcaster can likely cast teleport 5 times per day at that level without touching his higher-level slots. The mobility SLAs are the class's main distinguishing "high-power" feature and they come up five levels after the spellcasters have gotten them. I think that letting them be Cha/day without cutting into RTP would be fine.

YouLostMe
2011-11-22, 12:09 AM
OH GOD THE SPOILERS.

This is incredibly inconvenient to read. Especially since I like to transfer classes to word docs and annotate/edit them. It would be fantastic if you did "Ability (Type): Description" instead of frying my brain.

Also, which of these abilities are supernatural? Which are extraordinary? And which are spell-like?

llamamushroom
2011-11-22, 05:31 AM
Counterpoint: a spellcaster can likely cast teleport 5 times per day at that level without touching his higher-level slots. The mobility SLAs are the class's main distinguishing "high-power" feature and they come up five levels after the spellcasters have gotten them. I think that letting them be Cha/day without cutting into RTP would be fine.

That is definitely a relief - it's much more elegant that way, yeah. I think I'll change it back. If anyone has anything to add on that score, I'd like to hear from you.


OH GOD THE SPOILERS.

This is incredibly inconvenient to read. Especially since I like to transfer classes to word docs and annotate/edit them. It would be fantastic if you did "Ability (Type): Description" instead of frying my brain.

Also, which of these abilities are supernatural? Which are extraordinary? And which are spell-like?

I admit, I did the spoilers because the abilities are really wordy, and I didn't want to stretch the page too much. If it makes that much of a difference, sure, I can switch it over. I'm not fussed either way.

As to the extraordinary/supernatural abilities... I hadn't thought of that, yet. Oops. Before I go ahead and change it, how does this sound:

AC Bonus, Speed Bonus, Angel's Grace, Damage Reduction, Disease Immunity, Deathless and Eternal are Extraordinary Abilities.

Raise from Perdition and entries listed under Spell-Like Abilities are SLAs.

Everything else (Righteous Touch, Smite, Use Magic Device, Protective Aura, Angelflight and Soulcharge) are Supernatural Abilities. So, basically all the abilities that directly interact with Righteous Touch points (and Protective Aura) are (Su).

Does that look alright?

lesser_minion
2011-11-22, 09:24 PM
Some impressions from reading through the class:

It's unusual for a base class to not get Profession as a class skill, and even more unusual for it not to get Craft. If you're giving out Diplomacy and Intimidate, I'd recommend adding Sense Motive as well.
Since the only effect alignment has is to change the targets of certain class features, I'd suggest changing the alignment entry to "Any except neutral" and changing references to alignments in the abilities so that they reference the character's own alignment.
It's very unusual to give a base class next to no weapon proficiencies. I'd recommend making them proficient in all Simple Weapons plus the Angel Blade.
I'd suggest mentioning each improvement to Angelic Traits in the table as well as the text. Also, I see no reason why you couldn't offer +60 feet to pre-existing darkvision and allow the low-light vision to stack.
AC Bonus should probably apply when wearing "light armour or no armour" or "armour no heavier than light". As written, you get the benefit while wearing padded clothes but not while naked.
Righteous Touch is not a natural weapon or an unarmed attack, so it doesn't make much sense for it to behave like one. Having it deal d8 + Charisma modifier damage with a melee touch attack would probably work, especially when you start smiting people with it. You need to explicitly require the character to spend at least 1 RTP on her melee touch attack, to avoid the headaches that arise when someone declares that they're going to spend a negative amount of RTP.
I know you were joking, but this class can in fact one-shot the BBEG at level one. The wording "each day, a vessel gets righteous touch points equal to..." implies that there's no limit to how many points she can have, and that they carry over from the previous day. Wait ten years, and as long as you can get to the BBEG, it's dead meat. Phrase it as something along the lines of "A vessel may have up to (2 x charisma modifier x class level) Righteous Touch points in reserve at any one time. Once per day, at a time chosen by her in the same way that clerics choose when to prepare spells, her reserve of RTP is refilled to its maximum".
Smite should probably be listed as 'Smite Evil' in the text, or it should appear in the table as Smite (Evil), Smite (Chaos) and so on.
Angelflight should first appear a lot earlier. As written, there's no limit to how often it may be used, whether or not there's some sort of cooldown between uses, or anything like that. As written, the duration simply doesn't matter because you can reactivate the ability as a standard action any time before it expires.
If you want a class to be good at using magic devices, giving them Use Magic Device as a class skill and perhaps letting them take 10 on a Use Magic Device check by spending some RTP would probably get the point across better than letting them temporarily buy ranks in the skill.


I'm getting tired, so I'll stop here, and maybe have more to suggest tomorrow.

Venetian Mask
2011-11-27, 05:18 PM
Okay, I've used the Vessel as an enemy against my evil party today. The Vessel was 4th level against a party of 5 3rd and one 2nd level character. Things noticed:

1. Holy -boop- RT is a dangerous ability. If I had decided to put all of the vessels RTP in his opening attack the party tank (a 3rd level paladin of tyranny would've been blown away)

2. Protection from evil as an at will SLA? Maybe a bit strong, the Favored Soul cried a little because he specializes in summoned creatures.

3. Smite evil. Just... Smite evil... This 4th level angelic vessel could smite evil with any attack (adding +8 (4 CHA + 4 lvl) damage. That's a lot better than the paladins smite. He can only use it 1 time at 4th level and it only does +4 (4 lvl) damage.

Overal it was an awesome antagonist for my players and it'll certainly be a recurring antagonist. If you want to use it for players, maybe cut back the RTP a bit on lower levels and nerf the smite a bit. Otherwise it looks like a great class.

Kane0
2011-11-28, 01:47 AM
Hey there, I cant say i know anything about balance either, just posting my own first Homebrew myself, but i cant help noticing you have some pretty hefty dead levels in there. If it turns out you need to spread out your abilities that could solve two problems at once. :smallsmile:

llamamushroom
2011-11-28, 05:12 AM
Some impressions from reading through the class:

First up, thanks for the detail - it's really helpful! :smallbiggrin:


It's unusual for a base class to not get Profession as a class skill, and even more unusual for it not to get Craft. If you're giving out Diplomacy and Intimidate, I'd recommend adding Sense Motive as well. I hadn't realised that Profession and Craft were such common skills (largely because I haven't really used either) - I'll add them in. I deliberately left Sense Motive out, because I thought of the vessel as being a being of another world, unable to really understand humanity... but then I gave it Discern Lies, so I think I'll put in Sense Motive, too.


Since the only effect alignment has is to change the targets of certain class features, I'd suggest changing the alignment entry to "Any except neutral" and changing references to alignments in the abilities so that they reference the character's own alignment. I think the current way is fairly clear, and prevents things like "smite opposite alignment on the moral axis". Also, the point is sort of that the basic Angelic Vessel is Lawful Good, and just leaving the alignment open loses that emphasis. I wanted falling and the like, but for the class to remain functional. I'll leave it as-is, but thanks for the comment.

It's very unusual to give a base class next to no weapon proficiencies. I'd recommend making them proficient in all Simple Weapons plus the Angel Blade. This was very much a fluff thing, as at one point the angel on which this is based lost his powers and was largely helpless. On the other hand, simple weapon proficiency is fairly standard, and allows for ranged weaponry. On the third hand, the current way is essentially a big arrow pointing towards Righteous Touch, saying "this is your power. Use it wisely, because there's not much by way of back-up once that reserve is depleted." I'll leave it for now, but I'm willing to change it.

I'd suggest mentioning each improvement to Angelic Traits in the table as well as the text. Also, I see no reason why you couldn't offer +60 feet to pre-existing darkvision and allow the low-light vision to stack.Good idea on the darkvision, but I'm not sure what you mean by allowing "the low-light vision to stack".

AC Bonus should probably apply when wearing "light armour or no armour" or "armour no heavier than light". As written, you get the benefit while wearing padded clothes but not while naked.Angels must be clothed at all times. :smalltongue: Seriously, though, you're right. To the change-matron!

Righteous Touch is not a natural weapon or an unarmed attack, so it doesn't make much sense for it to behave like one. Having it deal d8 + Charisma modifier damage with a melee touch attack would probably work, especially when you start smiting people with it. You need to explicitly require the character to spend at least 1 RTP on her melee touch attack, to avoid the headaches that arise when someone declares that they're going to spend a negative amount of RTP.Good point, I'll say "it deals damage according to table:Righteous Touch Damage, which will essentially mimic a monk's unarmed strike damage (y'know, increasing as level goes up, though perhaps as a monk of small size to make it a bit fairer on the poor, under-appreciated monk)

I know you were joking, but this class can in fact one-shot the BBEG at level one. The wording "each day, a vessel gets righteous touch points equal to..." implies that there's no limit to how many points she can have, and that they carry over from the previous day. Wait ten years, and as long as you can get to the BBEG, it's dead meat. Phrase it as something along the lines of "A vessel may have up to (2 x charisma modifier x class level) Righteous Touch points in reserve at any one time. Once per day, at a time chosen by her in the same way that clerics choose when to prepare spells, her reserve of RTP is refilled to its maximum".Yep, good point. I might even quote that verbatim - thanks!

Smite should probably be listed as 'Smite Evil' in the text, or it should appear in the table as Smite (Evil), Smite (Chaos) and so on.Again, good point - I'll go with the latter.

Angelflight should first appear a lot earlier. As written, there's no limit to how often it may be used, whether or not there's some sort of cooldown between uses, or anything like that. As written, the duration simply doesn't matter because you can reactivate the ability as a standard action any time before it expires. Finally, you'll wantAh, right. My intention was to put "per day" in there somewhere. I'll also up the RTP cost for additional rounds.

If you want a class to be good at using magic devices, giving them Use Magic Device as a class skill and perhaps letting them take 10 on a Use Magic Device check by spending some RTP would probably get the point across better than letting them temporarily buy ranks in the skill.


I'm getting tired, so I'll stop here, and maybe have more to suggest tomorrow.That's a better idea, and a lot less wordy than the current version. Thanks.


Okay, I've used the Vessel as an enemy against my evil party today. The Vessel was 4th level against a party of 5 3rd and one 2nd level character. Things noticed:

1. Holy -boop- RT is a dangerous ability. If I had decided to put all of the vessels RTP in his opening attack the party tank (a 3rd level paladin of tyranny would've been blown away)

2. Protection from evil as an at will SLA? Maybe a bit strong, the Favored Soul cried a little because he specializes in summoned creatures.

3. Smite evil. Just... Smite evil... This 4th level angelic vessel could smite evil with any attack (adding +8 (4 CHA + 4 lvl) damage. That's a lot better than the paladins smite. He can only use it 1 time at 4th level and it only does +4 (4 lvl) damage.

Overal it was an awesome antagonist for my players and it'll certainly be a recurring antagonist. If you want to use it for players, maybe cut back the RTP a bit on lower levels and nerf the smite a bit. Otherwise it looks like a great class.

Thanks for the feedback! I'm glad it was useful. Because I'm ludicrously nosy, care to share the storyline of the campaign? It sounds really interesting, and I'm always curious as to how other people handle evil campaigns - the one time I tried... it ended, shall we say, less-than-well.

With your feedback in mind, I'll change Smite from "at will" to "lvl/day", and the damage to just "+ lvl", like the Paladin's smite. I'll keep RTP/lvl as-is, but maybe institute something like the Psion's rules for Augmenting powers (if used offensively, the maximum number of RTP you can use is equal to your level, or similar). That should handle the problem.

Sorry about your Favoured Soul's summons, but if I can't occasionally make a summoner cry, I'm not doing my job right. :smallwink:

Venetian Mask
2011-11-28, 11:45 AM
Thanks for the feedback! I'm glad it was useful.
Not a problem, I have two party members who are avid supernatural fans (like me) so this happened when introducing him. "As the man takes hold of your (the tanks) head his eyes start shining and you feel filled with holy energy. A scream escapes your lips as white light bursts from your eyes and mouth. Behind the man shadows of wings are cast on the wall." - Reaction of those players. "Oh... Dear... We're booped... :smalleek:"


Because I'm ludicrously nosy, care to share the storyline of the campaign? It sounds really interesting, and I'm always curious as to how other people handle evil campaigns - the one time I tried... it ended, shall we say, less-than-well.
In the interest of not going off topic I'll drop you a pm with the story outline (later this evening tho'... I have to work :smallmad:)


With your feedback in mind, I'll change Smite from "at will" to "lvl/day", and the damage to just "+ lvl", like the Paladin's smite. I'll keep RTP/lvl as-is, but maybe institute something like the Psion's rules for Augmenting powers (if used offensively, the maximum number of RTP you can use is equal to your level, or similar). That should handle the problem.

That'd be a lot better. I mean: 2d6-1+34+8 damage against a paladin with 32 HP is just plain evil.


Sorry about your Favoured Soul's summons, but if I can't occasionally make a summoner cry, I'm not doing my job right.
Sorry? What're you sorry for? Making summoners cry is a sign of a DM doing his job properly. :smallamused:

jiriku
2011-11-28, 04:13 PM
If you use multiclassing restrictions, I would suggest adding angelic vessel as an additional or alternative favored class for the aasimar.

I'd recommend 4 skill points per level for this class. 2 per level tends to produce characters that are very one-dimensional in their capabilities.

The speed bonus makes an angelic vessel faster than actual angels. Nothing particularly wrong with that, but it seems a bit strange to me.

Can righteous touch be used as part of a full attack?

Eternal is... a bit much. I suppose it's comparable to what a wizard or cleric can do with astral projection, but it's difficult for a DM to challenge a player who can say, "you can't kill me".

Steward
2011-11-28, 04:36 PM
If you want to keep the flavor of 'Eternal' without making it so overpowering, maybe you could make it so that they can't leave the Upper Planes completely on their own power. They have to be 'called' back to the Material Plane with something like Greater Planar Ally (although that spell might not work in this situation, actually!) or by something like Miracle.

llamamushroom
2011-11-29, 12:19 AM
If you use multiclassing restrictions, I would suggest adding angelic vessel as an additional or alternative favored class for the aasimar.

I'd recommend 4 skill points per level for this class. 2 per level tends to produce characters that are very one-dimensional in their capabilities.

The speed bonus makes an angelic vessel faster than actual angels. Nothing particularly wrong with that, but it seems a bit strange to me.

Can righteous touch be used as part of a full attack?Personally, I don't use multiclass restrictions, but I agree that aasimar would be a good fit. I'll add it in case others want to.

If you think more skill points are better, I agree - anything that makes it a marginally more powerful class gets a pass. :smalltongue:

The speed bonus does make it a bit quick, yes, but it's partially to make up for the fact that it doesn't get a mount (I did initially base it on a Paladin), and because the flight ability initially uses the base speed. Strange, though? Yeah, it is a bit. I might tone it down.

Righteous touch for a full attack... that does sound mighty tempting, but also a tad powerful. I'll put it in, but I am very prepared to listen to cries of "unbalanced!"

Eternal is... a bit much. I suppose it's comparable to what a wizard or cleric can do with astral projection, but it's difficult for a DM to challenge a player who can say, "you can't kill me".

If you want to keep the flavor of 'Eternal' without making it so overpowering, maybe you could make it so that they can't leave the Upper Planes completely on their own power. They have to be 'called' back to the Material Plane with something like Greater Planar Ally (although that spell might not work in this situation, actually!) or by something like Miracle.

Yeah, it is a bit much as-is, and I like Steward's fix, though I'll add something that explicitly allows for Greater Planar Ally (with a cost of 1,000gp/HD worth of diamonds - it's essentially True Resurrection). I'll also add a caveat that you a) need RTP in reserve when you die, and b) must be in a position for dismissal to work - AMF and Dimensional Anchor, for instance, would hold you in place and let you die. Does that sound less broken?

jiriku
2011-11-29, 12:38 AM
Yeah, it is a bit much as-is, and I like Steward's fix, though I'll add something that explicitly allows for Greater Planar Ally (with a cost of 1,000gp/HD worth of diamonds - it's essentially True Resurrection). I'll also add a caveat that you a) need RTP in reserve when you die, and b) must be in a position for dispel to work - AMF and Dimensional Anchor, for instance, would hold you in place and let you die. Does that sound less broken?

Being trumped by anything that blocks planar travel immediately makes it more reasonable. At the level it's gained at, such magics are easily available. Most enemies won't have them, but any enemy could, and that will force the angelic vessel to take encounters seriously.

The_Admiral
2011-11-30, 06:22 AM
Ok I'll try
Angel's Blade

"How do you even use that thing?"
http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/images/thumb/6/67/SwordsClash.jpg/300px-SwordsClash.jpg

{table=head]Cost|Damage|Crit|Range|Weight|Type|Type

(Special)|
1d6(medium)|
19/20 x 2|
10 ft|
2 ib|Slashing/Piercing|Exotic[/table]

This weapon is capable of damaging anything. It is incapable of being sold and if an angelic host looses his blade it returns to his hand the next round.

I'm not very good at pricing.

Sgt. Cookie
2011-11-30, 07:08 AM
Damage Reduction (Ex): Beginning at 3rd level, Angelic Vessels have damage reduction equal to one half their AV level/chaotic or DR = 1/2 AV level/evil. They choose which at 3rd level, and cannot change it afterwards. This only applies as long as the vessel has RTP. At 20th level, it changes to DR = 1/2 AV level/chaotic and evil.i

Not sure how this works, to be honest. At level 3 it's a choice between DR/chaotic or DR/evil, but at level 20 it changes to DR/Chaotic and Evil.

At level 20, the Angelic Vessel's DR can be bypassed by both Chaotic and Evil, while at level 3-19, it can only be bypassed by either Chaotic OR evil.

If your intention was to make the Angelic Vessel take less damage from Chaotic or Evil attacks, then you need to change the DR so that it can be bypassed by nothing or Law/Good, etc. I'd also recomend that you swap the two round, so you get DR/Chaotic and Evil at levels 3-19, and DR/Chaotic OR Evil at level 20.

Zakaroth
2011-11-30, 12:27 PM
As a supernatural fan, I must approve of this class. It really needs a class feature at 19th level, though. Its a dead level as is, and those should be avoided when designing a class. Maybe another SLA, like Holy Word or something. Just give it something.

Venetian Mask
2011-11-30, 12:44 PM
Ok I'll try
Angel's Blade

"How do you even use that thing?"
http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/images/thumb/6/67/SwordsClash.jpg/300px-SwordsClash.jpg

{table=head]Cost|Damage|Crit|Range|Weight|Type|Type

(Special)|
1d6(medium)|
19/20 x 2|
10 ft|
2 ib|Slashing/Piercing|Exotic[/table]

This weapon is capable of damaging anything. It is incapable of being sold and if an angelic host looses his blade it returns to his hand the next round.

I'm not very good at pricing.

I solved this problem in my campaign by doing two things.
1. When picked up by someone not pure of hearth the blade burns for <player level>d4 damage (damage is good (or evil in the case of a fallen angel), magic and lawful (or chaotic in case of a rogue angel) for the purpose of DR) per round.
2. No shopkeeper will accept the blade on account of angel blades being well known to be the weapons of the messengers and warriors of both the Divines and the Fiends. (And you really don't want to mess with angels in my setting).

1, addendum: Any angelic vessel or fated angelic vessel (think Sam and Dean) can pick up an angel blade without problems. If the blade is given willingly by an angel the recipient is considered "pure". Any non-fated recipient who opposes the alignment of the angelic vessel is considered to be impure.

This meant that the players had to leave the blade in the room. (Which gave the AV's patron god an easy pinpoint on the location of the vessel, where he was promptly true rezzed :smallamused:)

jiriku
2011-11-30, 02:35 PM
i

Not sure how this works, to be honest. At level 3 it's a choice between DR/chaotic or DR/evil, but at level 20 it changes to DR/Chaotic and Evil.

At level 20, the Angelic Vessel's DR can be bypassed by both Chaotic and Evil, while at level 3-19, it can only be bypassed by either Chaotic OR evil.

If your intention was to make the Angelic Vessel take less damage from Chaotic or Evil attacks, then you need to change the DR so that it can be bypassed by nothing or Law/Good, etc. I'd also recomend that you swap the two round, so you get DR/Chaotic and Evil at levels 3-19, and DR/Chaotic OR Evil at level 20.

It think it works not quite like you're envisioning.

A choice of DR x/chaotic or DR x/evil means that either a) the AV will be vulnerable to chaotic weapons, or b) the AV will be vulnerable to evil weapons. However, when the protection upgrades to DR x/chaotic AND evil, the AV is now vulnerable only to weapons that are both Chaotic and Evil. A DR of x/chaotic OR evil is inferior, as that would render the AV vulnerable to both chaotic weapons and evil weapons.

llamamushroom
2011-12-01, 05:52 AM
It think it works not quite like you're envisioning.

A choice of DR x/chaotic or DR x/evil means that either a) the AV will be vulnerable to chaotic weapons, or b) the AV will be vulnerable to evil weapons. However, when the protection upgrades to DR x/chaotic AND evil, the AV is now vulnerable only to weapons that are both Chaotic and Evil. A DR of x/chaotic OR evil is inferior, as that would render the AV vulnerable to both chaotic weapons and evil weapons.

Yeah, that's what I intended when I wrote it. Is it phrased correctly?

I really like the Angel Blade you statted out, Captain_Obvious, and as much as I'd love to make the holy damage thing that Venetian Mask suggested standard, but it's too cool. Maybe for a prestige class or something, though.

Speaking of which, I was wondering if anyone had any ideas for feats for this class? I think one that increases your daily RTP, and one that lets you make Righteous Touch attacks through a good- or law-aligned weapon (change as necessary for Fallen and Rogue angels). Any other ideas?\


As a supernatural fan, I must approve of this class. It really needs a class feature at 19th level, though. Its a dead level as is, and those should be avoided when designing a class. Maybe another SLA, like Holy Word or something. Just give it something.

There is a something at the moment (I think... I may be wrong. edit: a slightly better Soulcharge. Basically nothing, yeah), but you are absolutely right. That high, there has to be something cool. I guess I'll have to rewatch some episodes to see what powers Castiel has. Oh, 'tis a hard life I lead. :smalltongue:

Thanks to everyone who's helped out!

I'll actually make those changes I said I would now...

edit: Here's the new 19th level ability. Does it seem non-broken?

Righteous Fury (Su): From 19th level, and Angelic Vessel does not need to sully his or her hands in order to purge the world of the unrighteous. Instead, they may use their Righteous Touch ability (both for healing and damage, though not their Smite abilities) as a ranged touch attack. The range is equal to their Angelic Vessel level times 5, and may be extended by 5 feet for every 5 additional RTP the vessel expends (these points do not count towards the maximum a vessel may use in one Touch), to a maximum of double the base range. They do not add their strength or dexterity modifiers to damage if they use this ability.

Additionally, the threatened area for their Righteous Touch now extends to the boundaries of their Protective Aura, and they may make a number of attacks of opportunity each round equal to the number of iterative attacks they have with this ability.

jiriku
2011-12-01, 01:01 PM
I believe your DR is worded correctly.

Righteous Fury is appropriate for the level, but requires some unnecessary decisions, I think. In a class so phenomenally mobile as this, it's not worthwhile to piddle and calculate and spend points over every 5 feet of range. I'd suggest a standard range of 60 ft, with the ability to spend x to add +60 ft to the range for each x spent. If there's a decision to be made, make it a significant one.

Likewise, a number of AoO's equal to iterative attacks is potentially questionable. Does each subsequent attack take iterative penalties? Do effects that grant you more regular attacks also grant you AoOs? This is more complicated than it needs to be. I'd recommend you just scrub the part about AoOs. Anyone who really wants a dedicated AoO build will have taken Combat Reflexes 15 levels ago anyhow.

llamamushroom
2011-12-01, 06:56 PM
You, sir, are a wise man. Thank you muchly.

John Cribati
2011-12-01, 09:44 PM
Does Neutral Evil become Rogue, Fallen or Rogue Fallen?

llamamushroom
2011-12-01, 10:16 PM
Does Neutral Evil become Rogue, Fallen or Rogue Fallen?

It depends on how it gets there. Every vessel (or the angel possessing them) starts within one step of LG, even if that is before the game begins. So, (LG ->) NG -> TN is Fallen, and a NE from there is only Fallen (no extra steps towards chaos). (LG ->) LN -> TN is Rogue, so the evil step from there makes it a Fallen Rogue angel.

I just need to find a way of expressing that logically now...