The Fighter: PHB 1 or D&D Essentials Version?

[wayfare]

Hey All:

I'm getting involved in a 4e game with some pretty casual players (no hi-op types in this group), and I Figured that I would stick to either a melee defender or striker role.

My GM said he would allow the Players Handbooks 1-3 and D&D essentials. Om a whim I picked essentials up, and I found that I really liked the idea of the Knight and Slayer fighter classes, but I'm not certain how they would play.

So, i turn to the boards:

How does the Knight variant compare as a defender to the PHB 1 Fighter?

Is the Slayer a decent Striker? (Compare to the Ranger and Warlock, perhaps?)

Thanks for the help!

[Kurald Galain]

The PHB1 fighter is better than the knight, due to greater versatility and better stickiness.

The slayer is indeed a decent striker, if rather monotonous to build and play. It doesn't outdamage the ranger, but then again, what does? The warlock does less damage than the slayer, but is better at messing up enemies with status effects.

[wayfare]

The PHB1 fighter is better than the knight, due to greater versatility and better stickiness.

The slayer is indeed a decent striker, if rather monotonous to build and play. It doesn't outdamage the ranger, but then again, what does? The warlock does less damage than the slayer, but is better at messing up enemies with status effects.

Thanks for the input!

I figured that the Slayer wouldn't keep up with the ranger, but I like the option of going off-tank at lower levels (I don't think we'll get much above 5).

Any other opinions?

[darkdragoon]

The Knight has some advantages if you expect monsters to be up close and personal (with a swap for Come and Get It to help that along). To a lesser degree if you want to be the sword/hammer and board guy in plate with allies sticking to a close formation.

Otherwise, the regular Fighter is a lot more well-rounded.

The Slayer is more or less a charge-first class, and yes, they are pretty tough for a Striker. It doesn't hurt that a swap for Rain of Blows is right up their alley.

[Yakk]

Essentials classes without much optimization generally match or exceed low-op PHB classes. Especially if your DM bans non-PHB material (like Powers books).

The slayer's large damage bonus is solid. It also means your ranged attack doesn't suck completely (as your slayer bonus applies to your ranged basic as well).

The Knight lacks the stickiness of the Fighter (the fighter can block moves, but not shifts, completely -- the Knight can just punish (with a MBA) if people try to walk away. Other than that, it works fine. As noted, it helps if you have people who can push enemies into your aura.

Both the Knight and Slayer are mechanically simple, and reasonably effective.

The dragon magazine "swap a power attack for an encounter attack power" feats can boost the mechanical fun of both classes (or use the human adroit explorer).

An interesting Slayer variant is the low-strength, high-dex slayer who uses melee training. The errata'd melee training is only 1/2 dex to damage, but you get 1.5x dex to damage, which isn't bad. A higher op version also continues to pump strength (and has it start out around 14), so by epic you are using dex to attack (and for AC), strength for the first dip of damage, and then dex for the second dip. This also gives you access to epic level "light blade mastery".

A more loosy-goosy build just makes sure you hit 17 strength, goes light blade (and/or bow), and spends the 2nd stat up mostly wherever it fun. Not that your game is likely to hit epic.

However, if I may suggest, see about the Heroes of the Feywild barbarian build. It plays like a Knight until it goes into a Fury, after which is plays a lot like a PHB2 Barbarian. (basically, until it uses a daily/encounter primal attack power, it has a defender aura, a knight-like punishment mechanic, and a +2 AC bonus. Once it uses a daily/encounter primal attack power, or it is bloodied and spends a minor getting pissed off about it, it switches over to striker-mode.)

[Seb Wiers]

The Knight lacks the stickiness of the Fighter (the fighter can block moves, but not shifts, completely -- the Knight can just punish (with a MBA) if people try to walk away.

That's what "Hold the Line" is for. Yeah, they can still walk away after yah hit them... hope they enjoy move 2.

[Nu]

That's what "Hold the Line" is for. Yeah, they can still walk away after yah hit them... hope they enjoy move 2.

World Serpent's Grasp turns it into actual blocking, as well.

However, it's not the most reliable thing in the world. But it's something.

[Gillric]

Well, when you consider that the fighter has to actually make an effort to mark someone and the knight auto marks everyone adjacent, and then you couple that with the fact that the knights punishment is an OA while the fighters is an immediate action (one per round) the kinght is actually much stickier at low levels. Defend the line plus world serpents grasp gives you the prone and slow combo and you can hit everyone that tries to get away from you, not just one guy per round.

[wayfare]

Ok, I think I am going to go slayer, aiming for a VanHelsing meets Beowulf kind of character -- a monster expert who is primary ranged but closes to finish his opponents off. Any build suggestions?

[Nu]

Ok, I think I am going to go slayer, aiming for a VanHelsing meets Beowulf kind of character -- a monster expert who is primary ranged but closes to finish his opponents off. Any build suggestions?

Whoops, misread your request. If you want to go ranged Slayer, just work hard on your Dex stat and pick up a Longbow to shoot with. You can go for a more traditional build and just use a Longbow, then charge in when you're ready for the finishing blow.

[Yakk]

Less powerful, but more matching your request. This build is less viable by epic.

I'll assume human.

Start with 20 dex. Wear hide armor. Dump strength.

Your weapons are a Longbow and some kind of two handed weapon of your choice.

At level 1 pick up Master at Arms for the minor action weapon switch and the +1 attack on both ranged and melee. For your second feat, pick up whatever you want honestly (Superior Reflexes for first-round CA and a +2 reflex? Surprising charge for a +[W] damage if you charge with a spear? Superior Crossbow for a +3/1d10 ranged weapon?)

Assuming Superior Crossbow and the bog-standard +2 damage stance, your ranged basic attack is +10 vs AC for 1d10+12 damage at level 1, and your melee basic is 1d10+9 damage if you use a two handed sword (also at +10 vs AC). You will want to close to melee range, because power strike is melee only (and deals +1d10 damage per use).

At level 6, you might have:
1: Master at Arms
1: Weapon Proficiency (Superior Crossbow)
2: Weapon Proficiency (Fullblade)
4: Warrior of the Wild
6: Manticore's Fury

Assuming a +2 Fullblade and Bow and the stance that just deals +2 damage, you'll open with:
+14 vs AC / 1d10+16 Crossbow
Then transition to
+14 vs AC / 2d12+15 Fullblade
Then back to
+14 vs AC / 1d10+18 Crossbow
Then back to
+14 vs AC / 2d12+15 Fullblade
assuming everything hits this is 101 damage.

Against AC 20 opponents (typical AC for a level 6 monster) you hit 75% of the time, so ~75 damage over 4 rounds, or 19 DPR, which is acceptable at level 6 for a non-heavily optimized striker. Ie, you won't be outpaced by an essentials thief, but you won't be doubling the damage output of a thief either. This also didn't pay attention to your HQ.

Other cute options include changing to a spear instead of a fullblade (greatspear is +3/1d10 with reach), which makes swapping back to the crossbow easier. It also opens up surprising charge for +1d10 damage when you have CA when charging, which is fun in combination with power attack (3d10+15 damage? Yum.)

The Ranger MC is not heavily optimal, but it fit my feeling, and it opens up the fun Manticore's Fury feat (which gives you incentive to swap between ranged and melee each round).

[Blackfang108]

Ok, I think I am going to go slayer, aiming for a VanHelsing meets Beowulf kind of character -- a monster expert who is primary ranged but closes to finish his opponents off. Any build suggestions?
Honestly, I would build a Hunter Ranger from MP2 for that.