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View Full Version : Gandalf v.s Palpatine



DarthArminius
2011-11-25, 04:38 PM
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Palpatine

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Gandalf

Emperor Palpatine, A.K.A Darth Sidious'es ship suffers from an irrepairable malfunction and crashes into Middle Earth somewhere near the lands of Men. Using his powers over the Force to absorb the life of the Storm Troopers on the ship, he survives the crash and emerges from it in the appearance of an old man.

Gandalf and a group of halfling's "save" Palpatine from the mysterious ship and eventually take him to Gondor. In Gondor, Palpatine assumes the role of an evil, manipulative force like Sauron. When Palpatine manipulates the lands of Men to declare war on the Shire, and eventually the entirety of Middle Earth, Gandalf the Grey confronts Palpatine and faces off against the Sith Lord, much like Mace Windu did on Coruscant.

If Gandalf dies, he can turn into Gandalf the White.

Who wins?

Comrade
2011-11-25, 04:58 PM
Gandalf wins. Isn't he basically a lesser god? If I recall correctly from the Silmarillion (and I may be wrong) Maiar are basically lesser gods.

Selrahc
2011-11-25, 05:10 PM
Gandalf wins. Isn't he basically a lesser god? If I recall correctly from the Silmarillion (and I may be wrong) Maiar are basically lesser gods.

"Lesser God" is not an autowin, neither in the generality of fiction nor the specific of LoTR. Fiction and mythology are full of cases of gods meeting their match. In Lord of the Rings, lesser gods and even their superiors have been beaten by mortals.

WalkingTarget
2011-11-25, 05:18 PM
Gandalf wins. Isn't he basically a lesser god? If I recall correctly from the Silmarillion (and I may be wrong) Maiar are basically lesser gods.

It's a bit more complicated than that. The wizards are maiar (somewhat of a combination, thematically, of classical/norse/etc. deities and the judeo-christian concept of angels - they're the one's farther down the scale, though - not Zeus and Poseidon level of deities). However, part of the gimmick is that they are incarnate in mortal bodies - they must eat and drink, they need rest and can know fear and any number of other frailties that flesh is prone to.

Gandalf is wise, but as his Grey self he'd lost some of his focus and had increasingly large amounts of self-doubt. After the Big Guy Upstairs had a bit of a talk with him after his death he was White and had a clearer set of goals.

Wisdom doesn't extend to knowing all ends, however. He often knows the morally right way to proceed and operates in a metaphysical setting wherein he knows that there is an all-powerful and benevolent deity watching, which can often allow for hope in seemingly hopeless situations, but he doesn't know the future in the way that the Force may allow.

On top of that, if Palpy has his lightsaber, there's no real reason to believe that even Elven steel would do any good against it.

If we're going by the books rather than the films for Gandalf, there's not even a lot of combat-quality magic going on. He's good with fire, assuming that he has fuel to work with in the first place, but unless we grant that Force use in Middle-earth would be transparent to the forces that the Valar and Maiar can act on normally, I'm not sure that he'd be able to do anything against, say, being choked with the Force from across the room (or flung off the top level or Minas Tirith with it, or any number of other things).

Neither of them are really known for their combat prowess, inherently, though. It'd be more interesting going with Palpatine's political machinations vs. Gandalf's ability to stir the forces of good into action of their own.

legomaster00156
2011-11-25, 05:19 PM
Gandalf wins at a range, but in melee, no magic sword can stand up to a lightsaber. So, naturally, blast Palpatine from a distance and Gandalf wins, easy.

ThePhantasm
2011-11-25, 05:24 PM
If Gandalf dies, he can turn into Gandalf the White.

Then Gandalf definitely wins.

They seem evenly matched in one regard. Palpatine can throw "magic" (the Force) right and left without breaking too much of a sweat. For Gandalf magic seems to take effort and concentration, but his spells are also more powerful. He could silence Palpatine, blind him, throw lightning back at him, not to mention break through stone (being able to collapse hallways, stairways, etc.). Gandalf seems to be able to appear and disappear almost at will. Also on his side is the capability to come back as the even more powerful, fully revealed Gandalf the White.

Palpatine's lightsaber could probably break Glamdring. He might also be able to break Gandalf's staff (though I'm not sure thats possible without a spell to break a magic staff).

In the end I'd put my money on Gandalf. He seems smarter in combat than Palpatine. Plus he's taken down a Balrog, which I suspect Palps couldn't do. All we've ever seen Palps do is kill three Jedi and get the upper hand on a 900 year old alien. Gandalf has faced Balrogs, Trolls, the Witch King, you name it. And Gandalf is unpredictable - we have some idea of the limitations of the Dark Side, but Gandalf always has a surprise up his sleeve.

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-25, 05:32 PM
Gandalf has a shockingly low amount of canon on the specifics of his abilities. The most obviously magical feat I recall from the books is him using pinecone grenades in the Hobbit. But still he DID beat a Balrog and survived a fall to the eldritch depths of the earth followed by a climb back to the top of a mountain before finally kicking the bucket.

Perhaps more importantly while a powerful man.... Palpatine is a man and killable. He can be opposed and beaten through force of arms, no Ring required. And Gandalf's job is to motivate and rally the realms of men. Palpatine takes control of Gondor, Gandalf hats up and goes riding and suddenly the Emperor has Gondorion lords rebelling all over the place with the Rangers of the North and Rohirrim raising hell all over as a light cavalry raiding.

Afterall what blood of Numenor can Palpatine claim? He has no claim the Men of Gondor can respect.

Eldan
2011-11-25, 05:36 PM
Didn't Palpy do some stupidly powerful things in the EU? Not that I know anything about the EU, but it tends to come up in these kinds of threads.

Arminius
2011-11-25, 05:40 PM
My money is on Palpatine. The powers of both of them are pretty vague in the original works. Gandalf has some vague kind of mastery over fire that isn't really used much and has the ability to free minds from domination, and he did take on a Balrog and win. Still, he can't just walk into Mordor and give Sauron a beating. An army of orcs with no kind of magical enhancements or support is enough for him to potentially be slain, judging from the battle of the 5 armies(though this was from Bilbo's perspective, not Gandalf's).

The main reason I think Palpatine would win is because he has the resources of a technologically advanced intergalactic empire. The scenario crashes him on middle earth sure, but there is nothing to really prevent him from contacting his dark side minions for help via the force. The Imperial fleet will also probably be actively looking for him anyway, since Palpatine is pretty much the only thing that holds the Empire together. He can't have gotten too far off course from whatever his planned route was. It probably wouldn't take them long to find him, then orbital bombardment ftw.

Even if he was trapped on middle earth. He is still someone from a very technologically advanced society dropped in essentially a medieval one. He is also a well educated and clever individual from said society. He would at least be familiar with the basic concept of primitive firearms, and it probably wouldn't take him long to develop some for use. It doesn't have to be much, an army equipped with smoothbore muskets could probably annihilate any army middle earth could throw together. Add in rifling to the barrels and it becomes more certain. This is not even counting the fact that we don't really know a lot of Palpatine's powers either. He has extensively studied and mastered a lot of the skills of the ancient Sith, who were capable of some pretty creepy things which can basically be described as black magic and alchemy. This, in addition to his political skills means I think he at the very least has a fighting chance to match Gandalf, if not outmatch him completely.

Traab
2011-11-25, 05:44 PM
Then Gandalf definitely wins.

They seem evenly matched in one regard. Palpatine can throw "magic" (the Force) right and left without breaking too much of a sweat. For Gandalf magic seems to take effort and concentration, but his spells are also more powerful. He could silence Palpatine, blind him, throw lightning back at him, not to mention break through stone (being able to collapse hallways, stairways, etc.). Gandalf seems to be able to appear and disappear almost at will. Also on his side is the capability to come back as the even more powerful, fully revealed Gandalf the White.

Palpatine's lightsaber could probably break Glamdring. He might also be able to break Gandalf's staff (though I'm not sure thats possible without a spell to break a magic staff).

In the end I'd put my money on Gandalf. He seems smarter in combat than Palpatine. Plus he's taken down a Balrog, which I suspect Palps couldn't do. All we've ever seen Palps do is kill three Jedi and get the upper hand on a 900 year old alien. Gandalf has faced Balrogs, Trolls, the Witch King, you name it. And Gandalf is unpredictable - we have some idea of the limitations of the Dark Side, but Gandalf always has a surprise up his sleeve.

Palpatine would likely take control of the balrog through some dark side of the force type manipulations. Id say, for balances sake, we equate gandalfs magic with the force. Same source, just a difference in manipulation. I have to give it to palpatine. He is faster, his force manipulations seem better adapted to single combat against another force/magic user, and his light saber means sword fighting is a bad bad idea for gandalf.

I never read the simmilarion, so Im sure I am missing a lot of information on gandalfs magical skills, but what have we really seen him do? He sets pine cones on fire and chucks them at wargs. He can light a stone to glow and use it as a flashlight, he can apparently make stone crumble, but im pretty sure that took a lot of effort and prep time considering how the whole balrog thing played out. His "battle" in the movie against saruman was basically a force pushing contest in which he lost. Gandalf has honestly never struck me as a combat expert. Yeah he does well with his sword against orcs and such, but we rarely see him blast anything. I honestly have to give it to palpatine in a straight up 1 on 1 fight.

Now, if the argument is which side would be able to raise the better army and win on a war scale, then we have a better matchup. Palpatine is a master manipulator, he could manage to seize power quite easily and then be able to hold it equally as well. Gandalf on the other hand is an ancient figure of respect and awe across middle earth. Every ruler knows him, or at least of him, they all know he is a servant of good, and he would be able to rally an army to face off against palpatines forces pretty effectively I bet. Id give the edge to gandalf in a middle earth centered war.

Eldan
2011-11-25, 05:48 PM
The Silmarilion wouldn't help much on Gandalf, really. I mean, it explains what Maiar are,but they don't really seem to have any kind of consistent power between them, they are all mostly unique.

Emmerask
2011-11-25, 06:04 PM
Well firstly Palpatine has more then enough clones of himself at his disposal which he can occupy once killed, so even if he would die in a direct confrontation he would just be back 1 year later ^^

Then we have the magical abilities and gandalfs really pale in comparison to palpatines (ability to see the potential future, ability to mask the future from others, ability to see perfectly into the very near future (2 secs or so), force lightning, force choke , ability to fling around objects with his mind with extreme mass and more then likely a few of the much more obscure abilities like the mind bomb or similar).

Gandalf is not really a warrior, he is more of a guide sure he defeated a balrog but that is a creature of fire and gandalf has some power over fire so that should have played quite handily into his hands there.

My main reason however why Palpatine would win however is that he would most likely never directly attack Gandalf if he deemed him a threat, instead he would ally himself with other dark creatues which would do the dirty work for him ^^

Surrealistik
2011-11-25, 06:12 PM
If we're talking EU Palpatine it's not really a contest. EU Palpatine has world destroying unlimited powwaahhhh.

Emmerask
2011-11-25, 06:15 PM
what does EU mean in that case?

Surrealistik
2011-11-25, 06:15 PM
what does EU mean in that case?

Expanded Universe.

Emmerask
2011-11-25, 06:17 PM
Ah okay thx, yes I was talking about stuff that happened outside the 6 films so yes EU I guess :smallsmile:

Threeshades
2011-11-25, 06:18 PM
in melee, no magic sword can stand up to a lightsaber.

That's a generalization that I would make carefully. I mean we are talking about magic here.

Da'Shain
2011-11-25, 06:23 PM
I mean ... going by what we actually know about them, Palpatine should utterly wipe the floor with Gandalf.

We have a lot of general statements of power and countenance and all that, but really, what we've seen Gandalf do, on page or on screen, absolutely pales in comparison to what we've seen Palpatine do, even if we're going solely by the movies. Gandalf had a telekinetic staff battle with Saruman that was pretty cool; Palpatine tossed senate pods the size of cars around like they were nothing. Gandalf (the White, at least) is seemingly capable of blinding people with white light; Palpatine can fry them with lightning. Gandalf defeated a Balrog (but died in the attempt); Palpatine defeated 3 out of 4 Jedi masters at once (and may have thrown the fight with the last) as well as defeating Yoda. Gandalf fights pretty much like a normal human (see: fight in Balin's tomb, battle of Helm's Deep), if one with extreme skill in sword and staff; Palpatine has both extreme skill with a lightsaber and the standard Force-user abilities of speed, strength and precognition, most likely to a much greater degree than your average Jedi. Gandalf was able to break the Balrog's fire sword with a Shield spell of some sort; Palpatine has the modern equivalent of said sword (if not far more powerful) in a form that cannot be "broken" like that and that he can use with what is essentially superspeed.

Adding in the Star Wars EU makes this even more of a mismatch, where Palpatine can destroy starfleets with his mind, control his subjects en masse through battle meditation, kill an entire room of soldiers at once with Force Lightning while sparing those he doesn't wish to kill, and hop between clone bodies when he dies.

The two universes are just on different power scales. I'd put even a generic Jedi against Gandalf and say it's at least a tough fight. Palpatine is essentially the Devil of Star Wars, though.

Comrade
2011-11-25, 06:32 PM
The two universes are just on different power scales.

This, basically. Not much more to it.

DarthArminius
2011-11-25, 07:16 PM
I mean ... going by what we actually know about them, Palpatine should utterly wipe the floor with Gandalf.

We have a lot of general statements of power and countenance and all that, but really, what we've seen Gandalf do, on page or on screen, absolutely pales in comparison to what we've seen Palpatine do, even if we're going solely by the movies. Gandalf had a telekinetic staff battle with Saruman that was pretty cool; Palpatine tossed senate pods the size of cars around like they were nothing. Gandalf (the White, at least) is seemingly capable of blinding people with white light; Palpatine can fry them with lightning. Gandalf defeated a Balrog (but died in the attempt); Palpatine defeated 3 out of 4 Jedi masters at once (and may have thrown the fight with the last) as well as defeating Yoda. Gandalf fights pretty much like a normal human (see: fight in Balin's tomb, battle of Helm's Deep), if one with extreme skill in sword and staff; Palpatine has both extreme skill with a lightsaber and the standard Force-user abilities of speed, strength and precognition, most likely to a much greater degree than your average Jedi. Gandalf was able to break the Balrog's fire sword with a Shield spell of some sort; Palpatine has the modern equivalent of said sword (if not far more powerful) in a form that cannot be "broken" like that and that he can use with what is essentially superspeed.

Adding in the Star Wars EU makes this even more of a mismatch, where Palpatine can destroy starfleets with his mind, control his subjects en masse through battle meditation, kill an entire room of soldiers at once with Force Lightning while sparing those he doesn't wish to kill, and hop between clone bodies when he dies.

The two universes are just on different power scales. I'd put even a generic Jedi against Gandalf and say it's at least a tough fight. Palpatine is essentially the Devil of Star Wars, though.

Gandalf as the White is extremely durable though. Even as the Grey he fought for hours if not days after a mile's long fall down a mountain, and kept fighting the Balrog with his sword. He could attack with lightning with Glamdring as the Grey also.

Mando Knight
2011-11-25, 07:34 PM
That's a generalization that I would make carefully. I mean we are talking about magic here.

Especially since it's wrong (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_sword).

Da'Shain
2011-11-25, 08:52 PM
Gandalf as the White is extremely durable though. Even as the Grey he fought for hours if not days after a mile's long fall down a mountain, and kept fighting the Balrog with his sword. He could attack with lightning with Glamdring as the Grey also.Granted, but Palpatine isn't exactly likely to lie down gasping after a couple minutes, himself. Gandalf may indeed be more durable (although I think that's arguable, especially since at least in the movie the Balrog apparently bore the brunt of that long fall and its wings slowed them), but the power differential is so large that I don't think it would matter.

Yes, Gandalf attacked with lightning ... a single bolt after he called it down out of a cloudy sky. Palpatine's simply arcs from his hands essentially whenever he wants it, and while that was Gandalf's most direct display of power, Palpatine has several other methods at his disposal, which are arguably more dangerous; the lightning seems to be mostly torturous.

Psyren
2011-11-26, 02:02 AM
As much as I avoid the EU like the plague, gotta go with Darth Sidious on this one.

And just reading up on the guy is ridiculous. (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Palpatine#Powers_and_abilities) He's apparently as good with a lightsaber as Yoda, has master-level telekinesis, has super-speed and flight, wields lightning like a wii-mote, created a freaking wormhole, and most powerful of all is the Clone thing. I mean, sure Gandalf can go grey to white but it doesn't look like death would keep Palpatine down long either.

dehro
2011-11-26, 07:07 AM
I'm unfamiliar with palpatine outside of the movies, and as much as I liked the MOTR, I do prefer LOTR and think that and the Silmarillion should be the ultimate source on all things Gandalf.
that said, palpatine is a sneaky bastard with a lot of charisma, persuasion, brains, strategic insight and some awesome force-wielding and saber skills.

on a pure skirmish level I am willing to concede Palpatine might best Gandalf.
let's however not forget that gandalf bested a balrog whilst still being "the grey".. in other words, when he was..less than he would be at full power.
furthermore..magic is a powerful thing in middle earth and that's the chosen battleground. gandalf was famed for being wise long before he moved to middle earth himself...and I don't see how palpatine might sneak past his guard..certainly not more than once.. gandalf wears Narya, which gives him and his allies a nice boost in morale.
more importantly however, what little I know about palpatine outside the movies tells me (I might be wrong there) that one of the biggest "aims" for sith lords is to attain immortality..something Gandalf comes equipped with from the get go.
also..since we're using middle earth as a battle ground, I would say that middle earth rules apply to the two characters..which means that gandalf gets to try at least another time, since he is basically forbidden to rest/die/retreat until his purpose is met.
so what you get when palpatine lightsabers his head clean off, is gandalf coming back again in the next chapter.
gandalf cannot die..and palpatine will..in the end, die, of old age if nothing else. the only way for them to meet at all is for gandalf to ... "diminish" himself.. or palpatine to ascend into the realm of immmortality. the first we know to be possible because gandalf "takes form", that of a human wizard, which however is just his choice..he could as well take the form of a balrog or an elf (balrogs were, originally, of the same order of magnitude as Gandalf himself)... the latter, certainly in middle-earth, has never been done. could palpatine be the first mortal to attain immortality? I doubt it.

H Birchgrove
2011-11-26, 07:35 AM
As much as I avoid the EU like the plague, gotta go with Darth Sidious on this one.

And just reading up on the guy is ridiculous. (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Palpatine#Powers_and_abilities) He's apparently as good with a lightsaber as Yoda, has master-level telekinesis, has super-speed and flight, wields lightning like a wii-mote, created a freaking wormhole, and most powerful of all is the Clone thing. I mean, sure Gandalf can go grey to white but it doesn't look like death would keep Palpatine down long either.

Yet, he got sneak-attacked by a maimed Darth Vader. :smallamused:

Aotrs Commander
2011-11-26, 10:04 AM
This is actually one of the few verses threads that could be reasonably an arguebly close match, possibly with a slight edge to Palpatine due to spammier spellcastings (e.g. Force) (excepting Palpatine being in the world-destroying aspects of the widely varied EU force power levels (and quality of EU...)



Note that in the Hobbit, Gandalf demonstrated he knows Lightning Bolt (in the cave where they are first attacked by the Orcs) at any rate, though, granted, his spellcasting is more subtle than most.



(On the other hand, if one were to take the Rolemaster/MERP stats for Gandalf (I'm and not saying you should...!), the amount of horribly spammy spells probably give it to Gandalf... As an E heat critical (no Resitance Roll) is enough to do for pretty much everybody...!)

Mando Knight
2011-11-26, 10:45 AM
granted, his spellcasting is more subtle than most.

I believe this is the critical factor. His spellcasting is more subtle because of his mission: he may be far more powerful than the rest of the Fellowship put together, but he has a limit to his interference in the mortal realm. He sets Bilbo on the path to find the ring, Frodo on his to destroy it, forbids the Balrog (literally a classic fiend... one of the fallen Maiar, much like Sauron and later Saruman.) from ending the quest, plays kingmaker for Aragorn... Gandalf's role is not that of a major power, but more as the guiding hand of Eru Ilúvatar. Gandalf would win, I think, but not because he faces off against Palpatine. Rather, he would find the hero that Middle Earth needs and help him defeat the Emperor.

In other words, he would be the Obi-Wan and Yoda to the Luke Skywalker who actually defeats the Emperor. (Though Skywalker usually needs help in actually killing Palpy...)

Psyren
2011-11-26, 11:08 AM
Yet, he got sneak-attacked by a maimed Darth Vader. :smallamused:

I agree, would have been nice if some of that stuff had made it to the movies :smalltongue:
But apparently he didn't die in that scene, so make of that what you will. That was his "Gandalf the White" moment.


could palpatine be the first mortal to attain immortality? I doubt it.

Doesn't he have effective immortality from the clone-hopping though? They couldn't really even kill him; a jedi had to seal him up inside his own soul and "become one with the Force" so that the disembodied souls of every other jedi ever could keep him in lockdown, and that only worked after they destroyed all his phylacteries across the galaxy. Without doing all of that, I'm not sure Gandalf would stand a chance.

Weezer
2011-11-26, 11:55 AM
I don't think Palpatine's clones will make any difference in this scenario. If he dies and then wakes up somewhere in the galactic core, why would he return to continue the battle? If he's really pissed off he would send some admiral with a star destroyer or two to flatten the planet or grind it under the heel of stormtroopers. There would be no reason for him to return alone to some tin-pot little planet just to continue a one on one grudge match with some old wizard. When given the choice he has never been a direct confrontation guy and dying would give him the opportunity to shift all the risk to his subordinates.

Psyren
2011-11-26, 12:05 PM
If he's really pissed off he would send some admiral with a star destroyer or two to flatten the planet or grind it under the heel of stormtroopers. There would be no reason for him to return alone to some tin-pot little planet just to continue a one on one grudge match with some old wizard.

Isn't the whole point of these threads to assume a one-on-one grudge match? Otherwise he would just throw a fleet at Middle Earth and call it a day, or zap it from space.

Weezer
2011-11-26, 12:50 PM
Isn't the whole point of these threads to assume a one-on-one grudge match? Otherwise he would just throw a fleet at Middle Earth and call it a day, or zap it from space.

Well the scenario given is that Palpy crashes onto middle earth and I can't see a reason once he dies to return. Anyways doesn't the whole clone thing take a number of years to take effect?
EDIT: It took him 6 years, so not really on a time scale that matters.

DarthArminius
2011-11-26, 01:22 PM
Well the scenario given is that Palpy crashes onto middle earth and I can't see a reason once he dies to return. Anyways doesn't the whole clone thing take a number of years to take effect?
EDIT: It took him 6 years, so not really on a time scale that matters.

The Valar and Eru would be most displeased if Arda were to simply blow up.

Weezer
2011-11-26, 01:40 PM
The Valar and Eru would be most displeased if Arda were to simply blow up.

Now that would be a sight to see, the full army of the Valar going up against AT-ATs and stormtroopers.

Dr.Epic
2011-11-26, 02:14 PM
First, Gandalf wins.

Second, I don't Palpatine taking over Middle Earth or even Gondor on his own. And even if he did, wouldn't other forces beside Gandalf help through him over?

Traab
2011-11-26, 03:33 PM
First, Gandalf wins.

Second, I don't Palpatine taking over Middle Earth or even Gondor on his own. And even if he did, wouldn't other forces beside Gandalf help through him over?

He wouldnt just walk up to aragorn and say, "Bitch, get off my throne" he would pull a grima and be the whispering voice behind the throne, the adviser, the trusted friend, slowly, ever so slowly, manipulating events so he seems to be the one and only person who can help, the only one who can be trusted. It would be the galactic senate all over again, "So this is how democracy dies. To thunderous applause." (I may not have the quote perfect, but you get what I mean)

By the time he takes command of gondor, or wherever, he would do it to grand acclimation, and the full support of the majority. Which would make things far more dicey when it comes to waging war against palpatine. He is the duly selected ruler of the country now. He didnt overthrow the legitimate government, he was chosen. Just because he tricked them doesnt mean gandalf has the right to rustle up a rohan army and storm minas tirith. Or even be able to convince others that they should.

DarthArminius
2011-11-26, 03:36 PM
He wouldnt just walk up to aragorn and say, "Bitch, get off my throne" he would pull a grima and be the whispering voice behind the throne, the adviser, the trusted friend, slowly, ever so slowly, manipulating events so he seems to be the one and only person who can help, the only one who can be trusted. It would be the galactic senate all over again, "So this is how democracy dies. To thunderous applause." (I may not have the quote perfect, but you get what I mean)

By the time he takes command of gondor, or wherever, he would do it to grand acclimation, and the full support of the majority. Which would make things far more dicey when it comes to waging war against palpatine. He is the duly selected ruler of the country now. He didnt overthrow the legitimate government, he was chosen. Just because he tricked them doesnt mean gandalf has the right to rustle up a rohan army and storm minas tirith. Or even be able to convince others that they should.

Some of Gondor's nobles, Rohan, and a non-corrupted Saruman would get suspicious when he decides to declare war on The Shire though.

MammonAzrael
2011-11-26, 04:06 PM
Some of Gondor's nobles, Rohan, and a non-corrupted Saruman would get suspicious when he decides to declare war on The Shire though.

Why would he? He wouldn't have any reason to. If he needed to destroy the Shire, he is intelligent enough to do so through means other than invasion - economic collapse, increasing orc/goblin raids, "acts of god" (aka force shenanigans), etc.

Assuming that Palpatine crashed on Middle-Earth for whatever reason, the only goals I can really see him having are exploring and gaining control of this new magic stuff (perhaps adding it as a new branch of Sith Magic), and getting of the planet. Why would he want to become ruler of a tiny little rock when he's already the Emperor of a freakin' galaxy?

Given that we know that Palpatine is one of the most gifted politicians, brilliant force-users, and long-term planners ever to grace the SW universe, I don't see Gandalf having any real chance in this one.

DarthArminius
2011-11-26, 04:10 PM
Why would he? He wouldn't have any reason to. If he needed to destroy the Shire, he is intelligent enough to do so through means other than invasion - economic collapse, increasing orc/goblin raids, "acts of god" (aka force shenanigans), etc.

Assuming that Palpatine crashed on Middle-Earth for whatever reason, the only goals I can really see him having are exploring and gaining control of this new magic stuff (perhaps adding it as a new branch of Sith Magic), and getting of the planet. Why would he want to become ruler of a tiny little rock when he's already the Emperor of a freakin' galaxy?

Given that we know that Palpatine is one of the most gifted politicians, brilliant force-users, and long-term planners ever to grace the SW universe, I don't see Gandalf having any real chance in this one.

Star Wars doesn't have any monotheistic deities that I know of. That means that as soon as Palpatine leaves Middle Earth, he will be a wanted man by Eru and the Valar. Maybe Gandalf would pursue him through space? ;)

Forum Explorer
2011-11-26, 04:11 PM
Given that we know that Palpatine is one of the most gifted politicians, brilliant force-users, and long-term planners ever to grace the SW universe, I don't see Gandalf having any real chance in this one.

Except that Gandalf is also one of the most respected individuals, a brilliant mage, and a long term planner in Middle Earth. I could see Gandalf working in the shadows to undo Palpatine's plans as he enacts them with neither willing to directly confront each other.

Emmerask
2011-11-26, 04:41 PM
Except that Gandalf is also one of the most respected individuals, a brilliant mage, and a long term planner in Middle Earth. I could see Gandalf working in the shadows to undo Palpatine's plans as he enacts them with neither willing to directly confront each other.

Brilliant? long term? I thought we where talking about Gandalf not Dumbledore?
Gandalf to me is wise not brilliant, and the only long term planning we have seen from him really was the "on the sixth day look to the east" part and that was most likely some kind of foretelling power Gandalf has which Palpatine can cloud and make useless.

Even the none EU Palpatine would completely dominate Gandalf both in a direct or indirect confrontation the only thing Gandalf has going for him is that he knows the world while Palpatine would need to learn about it.

Forum Explorer
2011-11-26, 05:08 PM
Brilliant? long term? I thought we where talking about Gandalf not Dumbledore?
Gandalf to me is wise not brilliant, and the only long term planning we have seen from him really was the "on the sixth day look to the east" part and that was most likely some kind of foretelling power Gandalf has which Palpatine can cloud and make useless.

Even the none EU Palpatine would completely dominate Gandalf both in a direct or indirect confrontation the only thing Gandalf has going for him is that he knows the world while Palpatine would need to learn about it.

I had something to say but before I do what exactly is your definition of brilliant. Because I get the idea that our definitions differ.

Psyren
2011-11-26, 05:14 PM
Well the scenario given is that Palpy crashes onto middle earth and I can't see a reason once he dies to return.

Revenge? He's a Sith, they get off on that.

Traab
2011-11-26, 05:21 PM
Revenge? He's a Sith, they get off on that.

Heh, true. So at best gandalf would get a Pyrrhic victory, as after palpatine wakes back up in a clone body, he sends a star destroyer to fire a single blast at each capitol city on middle earth. Maybe melts a giant middle finger in the plains of rohan. No need to destroy the entire planet with a fleet or something, im pretty sure that a single shot from a star destroyer would obliterate all of minas tirith. Or at least enough of it to make little difference. And taking out each capitol city, (including elven strongholds) would be close enough to total annihalation for revenge.

DarthArminius
2011-11-26, 05:23 PM
Heh, true. So at best gandalf would get a Pyrrhic victory, as after palpatine wakes back up in a clone body, he sends a star destroyer to fire a single blast at each capitol city on middle earth. Maybe melts a giant middle finger in the plains of rohan. No need to destroy the entire planet with a fleet or something, im pretty sure that a single shot from a star destroyer would obliterate all of minas tirith. Or at least enough of it to make little difference. And taking out each capitol city, (including elven strongholds) would be close enough to total annihalation for revenge.

Eru wouldn't like that.;)

Emmerask
2011-11-26, 06:24 PM
I had something to say but before I do what exactly is your definition of brilliant. Because I get the idea that our definitions differ.

Well extraordinary mental capacity.
One form and the most important for our purposes would be the ability to create a plan that takes nearly every complication into account, that is adaptable to new circumstances and in the end of course works.

Palpatine has shown that he is able to formulate and to execute such a plan
Even his last plan was good had there not been the "good always wins in the end part".
Gandalfs "plan" on the other hand was just successful due to being extraordinarily lucky (and due to good always wins in the end) but nothing he ever did was a brilliant masterpiece of strategy or tactic.

Avilan the Grey
2011-11-26, 06:35 PM
Personally it depends on a number of things and especially one:

Is Gandalf's hands still metaphorically tied behind his back or not? If we truly have this fight in ROTK Middle Earth, then Palpatine would probably win against Gandalf the Grey.

Has Gandalf permission from his superiors to use his full power? Palpatine has no chance.

Of course I do not consider the EU, since it is so over-powered and flies against the movies in general.

The only Star Wars canon I accept is the six movies and the Clone Wars TV Series.

Psyren
2011-11-26, 06:47 PM
Eru wouldn't like that.;)

Which leads us to "Eru vs. Dark Side" which is outside the vs. guidelines. Gandalf being a Solar aside, we can't assume deific intervention or the whole contest breaks down.

Personally I wouldn't give Palpy his galactic resources for the same reason. Better to assume both combatants are earthbound.



Has Gandalf permission from his superiors to use his full power? Palpatine has no chance.

Of course I do not consider the EU, since it is so over-powered and flies against the movies in general.

The only Star Wars canon I accept is the six movies and the Clone Wars TV Series.

But turnabout is fair play - if all we use are the six movies for Palpy, Gandalf shouldn't get Silmarillion material either until there's a movie for that too.

Forum Explorer
2011-11-26, 07:28 PM
Well extraordinary mental capacity.
One form and the most important for our purposes would be the ability to create a plan that takes nearly every complication into account, that is adaptable to new circumstances and in the end of course works.

Palpatine has shown that he is able to formulate and to execute such a plan
Even his last plan was good had there not been the "good always wins in the end part".
Gandalfs "plan" on the other hand was just successful due to being extraordinarily lucky (and due to good always wins in the end) but nothing he ever did was a brilliant masterpiece of strategy or tactic.

Ok so we do have different definitions. I go by brilliant to mean highly skilled or perhaps very successful would be the better word. Like if I call someone a brilliant rock climber it would be referring to someone who has climbed plenty of mountains and is capable of climbing basically any mountain within reason. So when I call Gandalf a brilliant mage I mean that very few individuals come close to his understanding or power in terms of magic.

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-26, 07:41 PM
But turnabout is fair play - if all we use are the six movies for Palpy, Gandalf shouldn't get Silmarillion material either until there's a movie for that too.

Not really. Gandalf is a literary character. Palpatine is a movie character.

When LOTR movies contradict the books, the books win. When SW books contradict the movies, the movies win.

Comrade
2011-11-26, 11:18 PM
I think it's a good point being made of whether or not Gandalf is allowed to use his full power. I was unaware that his powers had been bound/restricted by the higher gods of Middle-Earth, but if they indeed were, that kinda shifts the balance of the battle :v

Da'Shain
2011-11-27, 12:09 AM
Unless there's some feats of him as unbound Olorin or w/e in the Silmarillion that I don't remember, I fail to see why the idea of him being unbound suddenly makes Gandalf win. My impression was that Gandalf the White was essentially him unbound, and he isn't that impressive compared to even movies-only Palpatine. The mere fact that he's the equivalent of a demigod in LotR does not suddenly mean his known power level increases.

Also, Soras, by that logic anything that doesn't contradict the movies is a-ok. Which means pretty much all the things I mentioned earlier are still in.

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-27, 04:25 AM
Also, Soras, by that logic anything that doesn't contradict the movies is a-ok. Which means pretty much all the things I mentioned earlier are still in.

I'm merely pointing out that movie to movie is a false comparison because its not the original form for both.

There are many ways to go about it for material. If we wanted to be truly purist we'd could go with the three LOTR and the original SW trilogy, none of this Darth Sidious nonsense. Though more reasonable source material would be all six movies and the five Tolkien books. That's not all there is to Tolkien and a lot of his notes have been published with gobs of incomplete material, but this would be roughly comparable to stuff cut from the films but still there in the scripts or novelizations that definitely happened from Lucas but never made it on screen, what is the rest of G canon in the SW realm. The EU is a different animal entirely that doesn't yet have a true analogue for Tolkien, and hopefully won't.

Ultimately though I don't think it matters in the end. Palpatine ultimately still died by being chucked off a bridge by Vader. Whatever he may pull up with vast Dark Side powers, he still died there. He is slay-able by normal force.

And now there is the Dark Empire clause where he goes to Byss and reincarnates in a clone.... but that's still a loss even if it works. Either Byss can no longer be reached because Middle-Earth is not in a larger universe (the stars are all magic creations, the sun and moon are glowing fruit lamps, etc) and there's no Force sensitives around for alternatives or Palpatine survives his defeat but can no longer get back to Middle Earth.

Da'Shain
2011-11-27, 01:22 PM
I'm merely pointing out that movie to movie is a false comparison because its not the original form for both.I mean ... I can definitely see only taking the SW movies and only taking the LotR books (plus the Hobbit and the Silmarillion), but I fail to see why the "purist" point of view would be taking only the original trilogy into account. Even if you do hold that the EU contradicts the movies (which I have yet to see an argument as to why it does), the movies don't contradict the movies.


Ultimately though I don't think it matters in the end. Palpatine ultimately still died by being chucked off a bridge by Vader. Whatever he may pull up with vast Dark Side powers, he still died there. He is slay-able by normal force.Uh, so what? Gandalf is obviously physically killable as well or else the various orcs, goblins, wargs etc. that he has run for his life from would not have caused actual fear in him. Gandalf is in a physical body; there is no implication that he is not just as vulnerable to "normal force".

And even setting that aside ... still, so what? Palpatine got grabbed from behind by someone he (foolishly) thought was his slave and tossed down a miles long shaft into a reactor. First, how is that at all likely to come up in this battle? Second, why do Palpatine's demonstrably superior powers not still clinch this fight for him easily?


And now there is the Dark Empire clause where he goes to Byss and reincarnates in a clone.... but that's still a loss even if it works. Either Byss can no longer be reached because Middle-Earth is not in a larger universe (the stars are all magic creations, the sun and moon are glowing fruit lamps, etc) and there's no Force sensitives around for alternatives or Palpatine survives his defeat but can no longer get back to Middle Earth.Why would either of those be true at all? Why would Palpatine be able to crash land on Arda in the first place if it's not part of the greater universe? Why would he not be able to get back there again? Finally, speaking more to the fairness of this particular matchup, why is Gandalf allowed his resurrection but Palpatine isn't?

Forum Explorer
2011-11-27, 01:41 PM
I mean ... I can definitely see only taking the SW movies and only taking the LotR books (plus the Hobbit and the Silmarillion), but I fail to see why the "purist" point of view would be taking only the original trilogy into account. Even if you do hold that the EU contradicts the movies (which I have yet to see an argument as to why it does), the movies don't contradict the movies.



The EU messes with the movies by increasing Palpatine's power. If he was so powerful he should have immediately came back from the dead and prevented the collapse of the Empire.

DarthArminius
2011-11-27, 02:55 PM
I mean ... I can definitely see only taking the SW movies and only taking the LotR books (plus the Hobbit and the Silmarillion), but I fail to see why the "purist" point of view would be taking only the original trilogy into account. Even if you do hold that the EU contradicts the movies (which I have yet to see an argument as to why it does), the movies don't contradict the movies.

Uh, so what? Gandalf is obviously physically killable as well or else the various orcs, goblins, wargs etc. that he has run for his life from would not have caused actual fear in him. Gandalf is in a physical body; there is no implication that he is not just as vulnerable to "normal force".

And even setting that aside ... still, so what? Palpatine got grabbed from behind by someone he (foolishly) thought was his slave and tossed down a miles long shaft into a reactor. First, how is that at all likely to come up in this battle? Second, why do Palpatine's demonstrably superior powers not still clinch this fight for him easily?

Why would either of those be true at all? Why would Palpatine be able to crash land on Arda in the first place if it's not part of the greater universe? Why would he not be able to get back there again? Finally, speaking more to the fairness of this particular matchup, why is Gandalf allowed his resurrection but Palpatine isn't?


The only legitimate answer to your last question would be because the Clones are on another planet. Since the logical conclusion to Palpatine dying and coming back later would be that he would just Deathstar the planet or something is that it would violate the OP's condition that it be a one on one duel.

I could amend it to having it be a Gandalf v.s Palpatine mind match with armies and Middle Earth involved, but I wouldn't allow it to being just army v.s army because we all know how AT-Walkers and Ties v.s the Eagles and Riders of Rohan would work out for them.

Traab
2011-11-27, 03:07 PM
The only legitimate answer to your last question would be because the Clones are on another planet. Since the logical conclusion to Palpatine dying and coming back later would be that he would just Deathstar the planet or something is that it would violate the OP's condition that it be a one on one duel.

I could amend it to having it be a Gandalf v.s Palpatine mind match with armies and Middle Earth involved, but I wouldn't allow it to being just army v.s army because we all know how AT-Walkers and Ties v.s the Eagles and Riders of Rohan would work out for them.

Dunno, ewoks did pretty well in endor, and they only had gliders, not giant birds. :smallbiggrin:

WalkingTarget
2011-11-27, 03:57 PM
...I fail to see why the "purist" point of view would be taking only the original trilogy into account. Even if you do hold that the EU contradicts the movies (which I have yet to see an argument as to why it does)...


The EU messes with the movies by increasing Palpatine's power. If he was so powerful he should have immediately came back from the dead and prevented the collapse of the Empire.

The issue with the EU "not contradicting the movies" that I have is that, while the EU contributors may go out of their way to not flat-out contradict what's shown on the screen, there are implications that aren't adequately addressed.

Foremost in my mind are the preponderance of Force abilities introduced by games and other EU products that aren't displayed/discussed in the films. The films don't say that such powers don't exist, but there are examples of times where, if they did, Jedi on-screen should have used them. The implication is either that the powers don't exist in the films or that the Jedi we see in the movies (and here I'm mostly talking about the prequels since we don't see a lot of experienced Jedi in action in the OT) use their powers inefficiently/unwisely (and that's ignoring the secondary issue I have where the PT undercuts the philosophical underpinnings of Jedi and the Force that the OT established - although I suppose that could be part of the point of the plot of the PT).

It's power creep that happened outside of the (original three) films that Lucas didn't entirely take into account when the latter three films were made, i.e. the films are in a lower-powered version of the same setting that the EU displays. There's not necessarily anything wrong with that, inherently, it's just that the majority of us who have really only experienced Star Wars via the films have a lower benchmark for what the setting's assumptions are.

Psyren
2011-11-27, 04:38 PM
Not really. Gandalf is a literary character. Palpatine is a movie character.

When LOTR movies contradict the books, the books win. When SW books contradict the movies, the movies win.

There is no mention of all this supposed power Gandalf is slated to have in either LotR or in the Hobbit. He isn't even stated to be a Maia.

And if LotR had been a movie first and a book second, Gandalf's abilities would have been scaled down to fit the technical limitations of the medium too.

WalkingTarget
2011-11-27, 05:22 PM
There is no mention of all this supposed power Gandalf is slated to have in either LotR or in the Hobbit. He isn't even stated to be a Maia.

Not that anybody is stated to be a Maia. Even the Valar are only mentioned in passing a few times (mostly Varda/Elbereth).

There is some speculation on what, exactly, he is in the narrative itself and Appendix B gives some clue (discussing how he was a messenger from the West who was in the form of a Man - implying that he was something more - who was forbidden from matching strength against strength or from taking a leadership role outright).

Traab
2011-11-27, 05:48 PM
Not that anybody is stated to be a Maia. Even the Valar are only mentioned in passing a few times (mostly Varda/Elbereth).

There is some speculation on what, exactly, he is in the narrative itself and Appendix B gives some clue (discussing how he was a messenger from the West who was in the form of a Man - implying that he was something more - who was forbidden from matching strength against strength or from taking a leadership role outright).

You know what ive always thought of tom bombadil? God. Why? Because ive read a lot of stories that are setup like that. The bumbling sort of mystery character that helps out then vanishes, turns out to be a god in disguise. Redemption of Althaus as an example. He meets a crazy man early on that thinks he is talking to god. he gets a little bit of info on directions and moves on. Towards the end of the book there is a time loop and he meets the crazy old man again. Turns out he is god, and originally showed up to make sure althaus didnt get lost. Im sure if I sat down and thought about it, id come up with several other examples.

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-27, 07:05 PM
I mean ... I can definitely see only taking the SW movies and only taking the LotR books (plus the Hobbit and the Silmarillion), but I fail to see why the "purist" point of view would be taking only the original trilogy into account. Even if you do hold that the EU contradicts the movies (which I have yet to see an argument as to why it does), the movies don't contradict the movies.

To match trilogy with trilogy, taking them as cohesive sets that existed before anything could be changed or expanded upon.

There are plenty of SW fans (and ex-fans) that would like to forget the prequels exist. However I do actually think the prequel trilogy is an unfortunate necessity, hence why I'd put myself more in the "ex-fan" category. I also think the EU counts because ultimately it is licensed with a cohesive center (unlike say ST books which ignore each other) and for about the decade follow the Thrawn trilogy the EU consistent and enjoyable.

On the other end it is that while the LOTR has many things only discernable from the Silmarillion they are very obviously consistent and thought out with that larger scope in mind underpinning them.

I brought them up to discuss possiblities not really take a postition on which because I don't think it matters.


Uh, so what? Gandalf is obviously physically killable as well or else the various orcs, goblins, wargs etc. that he has run for his life from would not have caused actual fear in him. Gandalf is in a physical body; there is no implication that he is not just as vulnerable to "normal force".

And even setting that aside ... still, so what? Palpatine got grabbed from behind by someone he (foolishly) thought was his slave and tossed down a miles long shaft into a reactor. First, how is that at all likely to come up in this battle? Second, why do Palpatine's demonstrably superior powers not still clinch this fight for him easily?

Ultimately though none of those succeeded. Only beings of similar nature have shown much threat to Gandalf. Given that we mostly see him with companions its debatable how much threat he personally was under but that he chooses not to oppose force with force. Ulitmately he's on Middle Earth as an enabler of Men, he's not there to slaughter orc hordes for them.

Ultimately though it is very much Tolkien's entire point that just because Gandalf doesn't put out as it were is not to mean he can't given the right call. He's just not so gross as to go around making a show of things, because Gandalf is subtle. (and quick to anger)

However when facing powers beyond force, things that Men cannot oppose there is clearly where he will choose to act. I ultimately see the conflict going down soemthing like Gandalf confront Palpatine. Palps pulls a lightsaber to cut this old fool down. Gandalf shatters it like Saruman's staff. Palps goes for the Dark Side. Gandalf makes some pronouncement along the lines of "dark witchery shall not avail you man from beyond" and there a flash of light or two and whatever Palps tries.... doesn't work. Behead with Glamdring and we are done.

That's how power works in Tolkien, all the continent rending force has been done away with but there are still echoes of power in the twilight days of the elves as man takes center stage.


The only legitimate answer to your last question would be because the Clones are on another planet. Since the logical conclusion to Palpatine dying and coming back later would be that he would just Deathstar the planet or something is that it would violate the OP's condition that it be a one on one duel.

I could amend it to having it be a Gandalf v.s Palpatine mind match with armies and Middle Earth involved, but I wouldn't allow it to being just army v.s army because we all know how AT-Walkers and Ties v.s the Eagles and Riders of Rohan would work out for them.

You have it right there.

Again its very evident that Middle Earth is the only part of its universe. While the dating gets difficult especially before the sun and moon existed for most of it history it was flat. The sun and moon were made by the Valar in memory of the Two Trees, the stars were made by Varda, etc. It simply should be possible to travel there normally as if its just an unknown planet in the galaxy far far away.

And if it was, God is very real there as are the Valar who can rend continents and such. It passes comprehension they would simply stand idly by as the natural progression of the world is usurped by strange men from outside. Or let it be blown up


There is no mention of all this supposed power Gandalf is slated to have in either LotR or in the Hobbit. He isn't even stated to be a Maia.

And if LotR had been a movie first and a book second, Gandalf's abilities would have been scaled down to fit the technical limitations of the medium too.

Gandalf names Olórin as his name in the West in the Two Towers. This is an explicit reference to Valinor on its own. However the Valaquenta among other parts of the Silmarillion lay this out. There's also various more apocryphal notes of the same in the stuff Tolkien didn't complete. Like the account that gives the name of the two Blue Wizards that went into the East.


You know what ive always thought of tom bombadil? God. Why? Because ive read a lot of stories that are setup like that.

I understand Tolkien did not like that idea but explicitly refused to explain Tom believing some things should be mysterious. I believe Gandalf says something to the effect that its unlikely Tom could oppose Sauron forever, which would make the good wizard wrong if old Tom is Eru Illuvatar in disguise.

I think the "hes another Ainur" like the Maiar or Valar is most popular but nobody knows. And that's not without its issues either.

Psyren
2011-11-27, 07:27 PM
Gandalf names Olórin as his name in the West in the Two Towers. This is an explicit reference to Valinor on its own. However the Valaquenta among other parts of the Silmarillion lay this out. There's also various more apocryphal notes of the same in the stuff Tolkien didn't complete. Like the account that gives the name of the two Blue Wizards that went into the East.


What's your point? Palpatine references his tutelage under Darth Plagueis in the movies (including his attempts to use the Force to create life); by your logic, this invites every EU novel that covers their interaction.

Again, I'm not a fan of letting EU Star Wars into every contest, but by the same token letting Gandalf have all of his toys while denying Palpatine his own makes the matchup meaningless.

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-27, 07:45 PM
What's your point? Palpatine references his tutelage under Darth Plagueis in the movies (including his attempts to use the Force to create life); by your logic, this invites every EU novel that covers their interaction.

Again, I'm not a fan of letting EU Star Wars into every contest, but by the same token letting Gandalf have all of his toys while denying Palpatine his own makes the matchup meaningless.

I believe I just pointed out where Star Wars lines up with Tolkien works in a few posts. Ignoring the Silmarillion would be like ignoring the prequel trilogy, not the EU. And that book explains Gandalf's origins in greater detail.

Ergo your statement that nothing states him as one of the Maiar is factually wrong.

(And I don't have issue with the EU because we know how Palps can be killed anyways)

Avilan the Grey
2011-11-27, 08:47 PM
I believe I just pointed out where Star Wars lines up with Tolkien works in a few posts. Ignoring the Silmarillion would be like ignoring the prequel trilogy, not the EU. And that book explains Gandalf's origins in greater detail.

Ergo your statement that nothing states him as one of the Maiar is factually wrong.

(And I don't have issue with the EU because we know how Palps can be killed anyways)

I agree with this.
The point here is that I, and a few others here at least, considers what we are up against is the six movies plus TV series vs the published work of Tolkien.

Anyway, Gandalf is subtle and wise. So is in fact Palpatine in the movies. He uses the force in much the same way as Gandalf uses his powers in the books. His main offensive is Force Lightning and throwing stuff. Gandalf's is fire magic and swordsplay. The difference is that Gandalf has a higher threshold before he starts using his big guns.

Psyren
2011-11-27, 08:59 PM
I believe I just pointed out where Star Wars lines up with Tolkien works in a few posts.

Whereas my point is that it's an arbitrary line. Palpatine didn't appear out of thin air after all, his origins are detailed in the EU. Writing it all off while keeping Gandalf's invalidates the challenge.

Xondoure
2011-11-27, 09:12 PM
Whereas my point is that it's an arbitrary line. Palpatine didn't appear out of thin air after all, his origins are detailed in the EU. Writing it all off while keeping Gandalf's invalidates the challenge.

I'd argue it is the only line that can easily be drawn. Because the EU is far too convulted and buffs up characters such as Palpatine to outrageous extremes (to get around Yoda, Luke, Sidious, and Vader being the most powerful force sensitives ever) which are not close to shown on film. So for measuring their abilities in vs. matches its best to assume only g canon materials with SW because as soon as you cross the line over into the EU it becomes a lot harder to define anyone as anything other than hax.

EU leads to inconsistencies, inconsistencies lead to power leaps, power leaps lead to further inconsistencies, and loops lead nowhere.

Surrealistik
2011-11-27, 09:31 PM
EU leads to inconsistencies, inconsistencies lead to power leaps, power leaps lead to further inconsistencies, and loops lead nowhere to the Dark Side.

Fixed. 10cha

Psyren
2011-11-27, 09:33 PM
Well, if you're going to hamstring one combatant for the sake of ease, then yeah the other guy will win. Great fight, next thread.

Traab
2011-11-27, 09:52 PM
Well, if you're going to hamstring one combatant for the sake of ease, then yeah the other guy will win. Great fight, next thread.

Well if we ignore the simmilarion as well as the EU books, then both are more or less equally handicapped. All we really know about gandalf in hobbit and lotr is that he is a wise wizard, kinda old, but can kick ass with staff and sword. He has some magical abilities, but most tend to not be flashy. We also see he has hidden depths of strength, like when he fights the balrog, so we know he is more than an old man with a glowing stick. He has influence and connections with virtually all the kingdoms of middle earth that dont serve sauron.

Palpatine, from what we know in the prequels and OT has some nasty lightning, telekinetic abilities, and a great deal of speed and skill with a lightsaber. He has the ability to influence dreams and to cloud the ability of the jedi to read the future through the force. He is also a master manipulator. Now, his skills with a saber may not be as good as they were at revenge of the sith, depending on the timing of the battle. Not saying he cant swing a saber, but id also say he couldnt really pull a yoda and be leaping all over the place like a muppet on crack if its closer to return of the jedi than it is revenge of the sith.

All that being said, I have to give the edge to palpatine. We get to SEE him display more power than gandalf. Take revenge of the sith. To match what palpatine did against mace and his cronies, gandalf would have had to snap and killed saruman, radagast, and at least two other wizards on the council all at the same time. His force lightning is painful and debilitating as hell. His telekinesis is way beyond gandalf and his shoving match with saruman. His speed in combat is also greater in appearance than gandalfs, but id be willing to call that part even, since gandalf DOES handle his weapons rather well. I just think that palpatine is more combat oriented than gandalf overall.

Da'Shain
2011-11-27, 10:47 PM
The EU messes with the movies by increasing Palpatine's power. If he was so powerful he should have immediately came back from the dead and prevented the collapse of the Empire.Because it took him some time to come back from the dead, and by the time he had most of the Empire had already splintered. I'm not arguing that, if Palpatine is killed, he will appear the next day good as new, just that he's fully capable of being resurrected.

The issue with the EU "not contradicting the movies" that I have is that, while the EU contributors may go out of their way to not flat-out contradict what's shown on the screen, there are implications that aren't adequately addressed.

Foremost in my mind are the preponderance of Force abilities introduced by games and other EU products that aren't displayed/discussed in the films. The films don't say that such powers don't exist, but there are examples of times where, if they did, Jedi on-screen should have used them.I can agree with that. There are certainly some ridiculous Force powers out there. While I think it is really silly to throw out the EU yet keep in everything Tolkien wrote, I'll concede it.


Ultimately though none of those succeeded. Only beings of similar nature have shown much threat to Gandalf. Given that we mostly see him with companions its debatable how much threat he personally was under but that he chooses not to oppose force with force. Ulitmately he's on Middle Earth as an enabler of Men, he's not there to slaughter orc hordes for them.... no. I'm sorry, just no. By that logic, Aragorn wasn't under any personal threat by the forces he faced. After all, none of them succeeded!

Gandalf runs. Gandalf feels fear. Gandalf feels pain. It is explicitly stated in the Hobbit that Gandalf is preparing to sacrifice himself to take out as many wargs/goblins as possible, because he knows they're all about to die before the eagles save them. Gandalf is in danger from physical threats.

Then Gandalf climbed to the top of his tree. The sudden splendour flashed from his wand like lightning, as he got ready to spring down from on high right among the spears of the goblins. That would have been the end of him, though he would probably have killed many of them as he came hurtling down like a thunderbolt. But he never leaped.Goblins can kill him. With spears. I think Palps just might be able to as well.

Ultimately though it is very much Tolkien's entire point that just because Gandalf doesn't put out as it were is not to mean he can't given the right call. He's just not so gross as to go around making a show of things, because Gandalf is subtle. (and quick to anger)Gandalf can put out. For his world. But when we've seen him actually do so, his powers pale in comparison to those we've seen Palpatine demonstrate in the movies alone. The mere fact that he's "subtle" does not mean that when he stops being subtle, he's suddenly ten times more powerful.


However when facing powers beyond force, things that Men cannot oppose there is clearly where he will choose to act. I ultimately see the conflict going down soemthing like Gandalf confront Palpatine. Palps pulls a lightsaber to cut this old fool down. Gandalf shatters it like Saruman's staff. Palps goes for the Dark Side. Gandalf makes some pronouncement along the lines of "dark witchery shall not avail you man from beyond" and there a flash of light or two and whatever Palps tries.... doesn't work. Behead with Glamdring and we are done.That's the laziest answer to a vs. thread I've ever seen. I can do the same thing, you know. Here's how I see this conflict going down. Gandalf says "The dark witchery shall not --" and Palpatine telekinetically snaps his neck with the Force mid sentence. Done!

Why could Gandalf "shatter" Palpatine's lightsaber? Don't you think, oh I don't know, a weapon made of advanced metals and imbued with Dark side power might be just a wee bit more resistant to such a method than the staff of a wizard whose power is already mostly broken? And what, praytell, is the mystical mechanism behind Gandalf being able to cut Palpatine off from the Force?


That's how power works in Tolkien, all the continent rending force has been done away with but there are still echoes of power in the twilight days of the elves as man takes center stage. And that's why I stated earlier that the two universes are on different power scales. Because the Force can range from subtle to flesh-meltingly, boulder-tossingly powerful, even given just the movies.


Again its very evident that Middle Earth is the only part of its universe. While the dating gets difficult especially before the sun and moon existed for most of it history it was flat. The sun and moon were made by the Valar in memory of the Two Trees, the stars were made by Varda, etc. It simply should be possible to travel there normally as if its just an unknown planet in the galaxy far far away.

And if it was, God is very real there as are the Valar who can rend continents and such. It passes comprehension they would simply stand idly by as the natural progression of the world is usurped by strange men from outside. Or let it be blown up By the very premise, Arda exists in the universe, else Palpatine couldn't have crashed there. But I'll let this one go as well, as it's still pretty much irrelevant, as the simple fact remains: what we have actually seen from Palpatine dwarfs what we've seen from Gandalf. It's theoretically possible that, completely unfettered and cutting loose, Gandalf could cut Palpatine off from the Force and behead him at a stroke. It's also theoretically possible that unbound Gandalf can use planets to play billiards with and eats black holes for breakfast. It's also theoretically possible that unbound Gandalf is ... Gandalf the White. We don't know. All we know is what we've seen of him, and Palpatine, even disregarding the EU, has him beat.

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-27, 11:06 PM
Whereas my point is that it's an arbitrary line. Palpatine didn't appear out of thin air after all, his origins are detailed in the EU. Writing it all off while keeping Gandalf's invalidates the challenge.

Its hardly an arbitrary line its a very simple one: George Lucas has $#@* all to do with the expanded universe.

That's it, that's why in a nutshell people discard it.

Star Wars is unusually generous as it happens as stuff that would be written off as "absolutely not canon" in other franchises (Doctor Who and Star Trek are big examples) is allowed to stand where not contradictory, albeit that also means fans have to live with things like Kyp Durron nuking a solar system and getting away with it.

And do you not hear me when I say I don't care about the EU there or not? Because whatever Palps did there he died being chucked off a bridge in RotJ. Not swatted Vader away with vast force powers or otherwise do anything but dramatically scream. So whatever he's done it ultimately doesn't add up to much.

Forum Explorer
2011-11-27, 11:14 PM
Because it took him some time to come back from the dead, and by the time he had most of the Empire had already splintered. I'm not arguing that, if Palpatine is killed, he will appear the next day good as new, just that he's fully capable of being resurrected.


Ok I'm going to argue that Palpatine being rezzed then won't be able to come after Middle-Earth for round 2 due to being busy dealing with the collapse of the Empire. Basically I imagine his death on Middle-Earth would have the same effect as his death at Endor.

Now would he actually die?

Well if it comes down to armies yeah I think he would. Palpatine is pretty sneaky but Gandalf is as well and already has the respect of the leaders of many major powers. So he would get a bigger and better army together faster. Though Palpatine might escape and become the new Dark Lord of Mordor.

Now in a one on one fight?

This is close. I would imagine that Gandalf would be able to protect himself from being hit with force lightning or being tossed around by force push. However he wouldn't have any real defense against having things tossed at him. Now Palpatine is much faster than Gandalf and has a better weapon. Gandalf's sword I would imagine breaking in the first few hits (but not the first hit) however I think his staff would be able to block it, but this leaves Gandalf without a sword. I think Gandalf is a more skilled fighter and stronger but he can't use Force Precog (I think Palpatine can) so I would give the one on one fight to Palpatine.

NOTE: My analaysis of Palpatine is based off the 6 Star Wars movies.

Comrade
2011-11-27, 11:21 PM
See, this should be Palpatine vs Second Age Sauron :v

Da'Shain
2011-11-27, 11:27 PM
And do you not hear me when I say I don't care about the EU there or not? Because whatever Palps did there he died being chucked off a bridge in RotJ. Not swatted Vader away with vast force powers or otherwise do anything but dramatically scream. So whatever he's done it ultimately doesn't add up to much.Gandalf's staff got broken by a Nazgul. He was ultimately superfluous to the destruction of the One Ring. In the end he had to pass away into the West anyway despite his side winning. So whatever he's done ultimately doesn't add up to much.

See how ridiculous that is?


This is close. I would imagine that Gandalf would be able to protect himself from being hit with force lightning or being tossed around by force push. However he wouldn't have any real defense against having things tossed at him. Now Palpatine is much faster than Gandalf and has a better weapon. Gandalf's sword I would imagine breaking in the first few hits (but not the first hit) however I think his staff would be able to block it, but this leaves Gandalf without a sword. I think Gandalf is a more skilled fighter and stronger but he can't use Force Precog (I think Palpatine can) so I would give the one on one fight to Palpatine.

NOTE: My analaysis of Palpatine is based off the 6 Star Wars movies.I can see saying that Gandalf could shield himself from Force lightning, if we say that the shield he uses against the Balrog will do the same. I'd argue that it couldn't protect him very long, though, as
A) Lightning isn't fire, and Gandalf's shield appears to have been strong specifically because he has an affinity for fire, and
B) The shield was broken by a single swing of the Balrog's sword, even if it did break the sword as well. Palpatine's Lightning cannot be broken, and he can keep it up for a much longer time.

But why do you say he would be able to protect himself from being tossed around by Force push and the like? He's never demonstrated such an ability; in fact, if we do include the movies, he demonstrated a distinct lack of such an ability in his fight with Saruman. You rightly say that he has no apparent defense against being smacked in the face with a rock the size of a car.

I will grant that Gandalf's sword may indeed stand up to a lightsaber (why his staff, though?). But Gandalf is a better melee fighter? Where do you possibly get THAT idea from? Gandalf is certainly a competent fighter, don't get me wrong, but Palpatine took on four master swordsmen at a time and still only barely "lost". Palpatine's got Force-enhanced strength, speed and agility, and most definitely has Force-given precognition (all Jedi do in combat) as well as the ability to see much further into the future than that. Gandalf fights like a normal, if skilled, human; Palpatine has the standard Jedi abilities so that even if he didn't have the same or better level of skill, the deck would still be stacked against Gandalf.

Psyren
2011-11-27, 11:31 PM
Its hardly an arbitrary line its a very simple one: George Lucas has $#@* all to do with the expanded universe.

That's actually a point in its favor :smalltongue:


And do you not hear me when I say I don't care about the EU there or not? Because whatever Palps did there he died being chucked off a bridge in RotJ. Not swatted Vader away with vast force powers or otherwise do anything but dramatically scream. So whatever he's done it ultimately doesn't add up to much.

And the Ring was actually destroyed by two hairy-footed midgets and a gimp. Everything sucks out of context, you know.

My underlying point is that comparing a book to a movie really isn't fair. Adding all kinds of powers and background to Gandalf only takes a few extra lines of text. Doing the same to Palpatine in a 1983 movie would have either made the movie too expensive to ever finish or stretched the audience's suspension of disbelief past the breaking point. (i.e. If they had just talked about all these powers of his instead of showing them.)

Regardless, I know you don't care about any of that, so I'll just requote my original statement:


Well, if you're going to hamstring one combatant for the sake of ease, then yeah the other guy will win. Great fight, next thread.

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-28, 12:09 AM
... no. I'm sorry, just no. By that logic, Aragorn wasn't under any personal threat by the forces he faced. After all, none of them succeeded!

Well enough though its not too far off from how Tolkien worked things. The great leaders don't have showy describe badassery, they have "power" and its left to our imagination to fill in what that really means. But when they go down its not generally through weight of number

Also Aragorn is no mere man either. In him the blood of the King of Numenor is renewed for one last breath, and his line goes back to the greatest heroes and kings of elves and men. He has (not as much as Gandalf) a measure of that "power" too, you can see this in how long he lives. He's 87 during the War of the Ring.



That's the laziest answer to a vs. thread I've ever seen. I can do the same thing, you know. Here's how I see this conflict going down. Gandalf says "The dark witchery shall not --" and Palpatine telekinetically snaps his neck with the Force mid sentence. Done!

Yes but that's how Tolkien works. It entirely consistent with how the great powers operate. Their prescence is a power of it own.


Why could Gandalf "shatter" Palpatine's lightsaber? Don't you think, oh I don't know, a weapon made of advanced metals and imbued with Dark side power might be just a wee bit more resistant to such a method than the staff of a wizard whose power is already mostly broken? And what, praytell, is the mystical mechanism behind Gandalf being able to cut Palpatine off from the Force?

When you are able to shatter objects at a distance I know of no way we could ascribe a limit.

And its doesn't even have to be cut off, Gandalf could simply be unaffected, Gandalf might reduce poor corrupt Palpatine to a quivering mess by setting his inner light and setting his will against the Emperor.



And that's why I stated earlier that the two universes are on different power scales. Because the Force can range from subtle to flesh-meltingly, boulder-tossingly powerful, even given just the movies.

I would agree but say that different power scales alone doesn't capture the problem.

Its like a poem versus a math problem.

This is why LOTR doesn't come up in versus disscussion so much. It simply operates differently then pretty much all the fantastical stories one might compare it too. The powers of its world don't run on stats or abilities, they run on song and story and doom. The full kind of Doom.


That's actually a point in its favor :smalltongue:

Not really in my book. Then again in my book Star Wars is the orginal trilogy, and the EU up until around the Hand of Thrawn books. Yuuzhan Vong, prequels... what are those?



And the Ring was actually destroyed by two hairy-footed midgets and a gimp. Everything sucks out of context, you know.

By chucking it into the volcano it was made it meeting the particular conditions for unmaking it. You could nuke the Ring and it would be unharmed.

Are you suggesting that Palpatine could only be killed at that location? Unless so then its not really a matter of context.



My underlying point is that comparing a book to a movie really isn't fair. Adding all kinds of powers and background to Gandalf only takes a few extra lines of text. Doing the same to Palpatine in a 1983 movie would have either made the movie too expensive to ever finish or stretched the audience's suspension of disbelief past the breaking point. (i.e. If they had just talked about all these powers of his instead of showing them.)

Regardless, I know you don't care about any of that, so I'll just requote my original statement:

Alternately whatever was fair or not doesn't matter. If Lucas had wanted to he could have had the Emperor be the Death Star and blow up planets with his will along. You could do that cheaply with some dramatic gestures, cut to some poor doomed bastards doing the Star Trek Shake, then explosion shot of the planet targeted.

We could talk endlessly about that being a better move or not but there you go.



Well, if you're going to hamstring one combatant for the sake of ease, then yeah the other guy will win. Great fight, next thread.

I'm not I have not hamstrung anyone, merely pointed out where things compare and where they don't as I see it.

You went all on your own to the conclusion I'm weakening anyone. I don't care about the EU because....

....


Pause for dramatic effect

.....

.... I don't think it matters. As in it doesn't effect the results. You went and had me barring it all on your own nickel.

Da'Shain
2011-11-28, 12:34 AM
Well enough though its not too far off from how Tolkien worked things. The great leaders don't have showy describe badassery, they have "power" and its left to our imagination to fill in what that really means. But when they go down its not generally through weight of numberGandalf explicitly can die to completely mundane weight of numbers, as that passage from the Hobbit proves.


Also Aragorn is no mere man either. In him the blood of the King of Numenor is renewed for one last breath, and his line goes back to the greatest heroes and kings of elves and men. He has (not as much as Gandalf) a measure of that "power" too, you can see this in how long he lives. He's 87 during the War of the Ring.Totally missing the point here. You claimed that, since none of the non-magical or deific threats he faced ended up killing him, that meant he was never in danger in the first place. Which is completely absurd.

To make it more glaring: Sam can't be killed unless it's by a being of similar power to Gandalf or Sauron. After all, none of the goblins/orcs he faced killed him, and he even managed to fight off Shelob, the spawn of a monster that even the Valar feared!


Yes but that's how Tolkien works. It entirely consistent with how the great powers operate. Their prescence is a power of it own. Sure it is. Where's the evidence that it works even remotely like that though?

When you are able to shatter objects at a distance I know of no way we could ascribe a limit. So you assume it's unlimited? Why doesn't he just shatter the One Ring then? Why doesn't he just shatter the Nazguls' swords? Why doesn't he just shatter the Orc armies' weapons?

The way you put limits to it is simple: you take his ability to shatter the wooden staff of a wizard whose power is waning, and you use that as a lower limit. We know he can do that. We have zero evidence whatsoever that he can do more that that, to tougher materials possessed by entities that are more powerful than said wizard.

I could as easily say "Palpatine tossed Senate pods around like they were nothing. Obviously we can't put a limit on this power, so he must be able to juggle starships just as easily." But I'm not, because we have no evidence he can do so.


And its doesn't even have to be cut off, Gandalf could simply be unaffected, Gandalf might reduce poor corrupt Palpatine to a quivering mess by setting his inner light and setting his will against the Emperor.And Palpatine might skewer him through the forehead with his lightsaber the moment Gandalf appears. Or Palpatine might laugh at Gandalf's "inner light" and simply let his own corrupt evil devour Gandalf's soul. Mights and maybes win no arguments. There's no point to this kind of debate in general if we don't go by what we actually know the entities in question CAN do.


I would agree but say that different power scales alone doesn't capture the problem.

Its like a poem versus a math problem.

This is why LOTR doesn't come up in versus disscussion so much. It simply operates differently then pretty much all the fantastical stories one might compare it too. The powers of its world don't run on stats or abilities, they run on song and story and doom. The full kind of Doom.They don't run on anything that different; the reason they're harder to quantify is because Tolkien made a conscious choice to not define the power of his characters outright. All we really have to go on is relatives and a paucity of feats; Gandalf the Grey is weaker than Saruman who's weaker than Gandalf the White who's weaker than the Witch-King of Angmar who's weaker than Sauron, etc, plus some few examples of what each can do. It's hard to compare this to other universes because the relative power scale does not translate to other universes, hence the need for reliance on feats and hence the Tolkien characters generally having less of them.

FatJose
2011-11-28, 12:51 AM
Whereas my point is that it's an arbitrary line. Palpatine didn't appear out of thin air after all, his origins are detailed in the EU. Writing it all off while keeping Gandalf's invalidates the challenge.

No, man, no. You are comparing Word of God to the drippings of fanboys who can draw or work a typewriter. That is the reason why EU wouldn't count. Hell, Lucas doesn't even blink when he contradicts EU because it only exists so he can collect paychecks. It's fanfiction. The stuff on Gandalf's origin are 100% canon.

You know, Palpatine and Gandalf both fell a great height. The difference is that Palpatine screamed all the way down like the crippled old man he was and died. Gandalf fought a demon and came back better than ever. I'm just saying...Palpatine could have floated...or bounced off some walls...Hell, why not just fly? EU has had more ridiculous stuff...oh right...

EU is terrible. It's like the comic book industry. I remember when Wolverine was like 5'4", was hairy and smelled. He was a bounty hunter with clawed gloves. Then he was a mutant...with a healing factor that allowed him to survive and heal from fatal bullet wounds...in a few weeks...and he had heightened senses. Wait..he heals instantly from anything now? Oh, also he's a 6'1" handsome woodsman type. CANON.

All the stuff by Tolkien, though? Consistent. Reliable. I don't even like those books (except The Hobbit..mostly.) but I give credit to the man for being concise and detailed.
EDIT: More importantly, Tolkien is the creator. He has no reason to do as all these EU and comic book writers do with established worlds and completely wank off some terrible power-fantasy garbage. It like watching children play with dolls.

Psyren
2011-11-28, 01:00 AM
Thank you, Da'Shain.

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-28, 02:19 AM
Gandalf explicitly can die to completely mundane weight of numbers, as that passage from the Hobbit proves.

Totally missing the point here. You claimed that, since none of the non-magical or deific threats he faced ended up killing him, that meant he was never in danger in the first place. Which is completely absurd.

My thinking on the matter is they ultimately fail. Hordes of orcs fail, the Balrog fails, Sauron et all fails. Gandalf though not without his trials succeeds in his mission in the end. He was sent to inspire the races of men to rally and oppose the darkness without opposing Sauron through sheer force. In this he succeeds and task complete leaves.

Its why I think that the way Gandalf would handle the situation is to raise up Middle Earth against Palps and rob the guy of all his political power.


Sure it is. Where's the evidence that it works even remotely like that though?

Pretty much everything Feanor does, Fingolfin's ride to Angband scattering hosts before him. Glorfindel rescuing Frodo. The time Sauron was driven out of Dol Guldur to bring on the Watchful Peace. Aragorn at Erech.

On the other end, the Nazgul run entirely off it.



So you assume it's unlimited? Why doesn't he just shatter the One Ring then? Why doesn't he just shatter the Nazguls' swords? Why doesn't he just shatter the Orc armies' weapons?

You could get a nuke, put the Ring ontop of it before setting the nuke. And you would go back to find the Ring unharmed. Why even ask.

Shattering an army would be opposing Sauron through force.

On further reflection I've come to the conclusion its not a matter of shattering objects, the staff merely had a sympathetic reaction to its master's power being broken. Ergo Gandalf opposed Saruman in a battle of wills and won. Now how much of Saruman's power is debatable certainly fleeing, as becoming evil (or rather betraying your purpose) is a consistent route to power loss in Tolkien's writings.

Gandalf did still break the bridge in Moria and lost his own staff as Gandalf the Grey there.



And Palpatine might skewer him through the forehead with his lightsaber the moment Gandalf appears. Or Palpatine might laugh at Gandalf's "inner light" and simply let his own corrupt evil devour Gandalf's soul. Mights and maybes win no arguments. There's no point to this kind of debate in general if we don't go by what we actually know the entities in question CAN do.

Ehh loosely possible on the sword fighting, its an open question whether an elven sword of Gondolin could parry blows with a lightsaber. How does magic fair against technology.

For the second, no. Jedi and Sith use the Force, but they are still men using a tool external to them. An immensely powerful tool but a tool. No matter what Palps can cook up the core of him is just an evil man.


They don't run on anything that different; the reason they're harder to quantify is because Tolkien made a conscious choice to not define the power of his characters outright.

And that conscious choice is significant to what he was doing, writing pure myth and fairy tale in the old form. Ironically the modern fantasy he spawned is often the antithesis of his approach with its obsessive need to dig deeper and have some underlying forces at play.

Its rather like taking a painting and instead of enjoying the painting you subject it to a careful mathematical analysis of its dimensions, construction, arrangement, and chemical composition of the paint. Then having put all that data in plain text on a printout, trying to understand the painting from the printout.


All we really have to go on is relatives and a paucity of feats; Gandalf the Grey is weaker than Saruman who's weaker than Gandalf the White who's weaker than the Witch-King of Angmar who's weaker than Sauron, etc, plus some few examples of what each can do.

Wait weaker then the Witch-King? No. Seriously that breaking staff thing I heard mention, from the movies only. Compare and contrast Gandalf the Grey having a fight with all the Nazgul on Weathertop.


It's hard to compare this to other universes because the relative power scale does not translate to other universes, hence the need for reliance on feats and hence the Tolkien characters generally having less of them.

Normally I would say you have a point, except with Tolkien that off screen element is purposeful. They are a throw back to the old style where people weren't so categorized as "6'7, 300 lbs, Hair:blonde, Eyes:Black" but as "a great tall man with hair like the sun and strength unrivaled" and that in our transition to the modern world we have lost something important.

So statting Gandalf isn't simply difficult its missing the point.

Urist
2011-11-28, 06:56 AM
If "statting Gandalf is missing the point", then trying to argue a versus thread with Gandalf in it is missing the point too, as it requires using some baseline comparison between Palpatine and Gandalf, and "statting" them is the best way to do it.

dehro
2011-11-28, 07:22 AM
I agree that the lack of Lucas' involvement in the EU should disqualify it from having relevance on the match.

this may have been alswered already..if so, I apologize.
the reason why gandalf gets his resurrection and palpatine doesn't, is because it isn't a resurrection but a "re-imbodiement".. gandalf is ultimately a higher being who is lessened by the very act of taking a physical form. his earliest appearances are in the guise of dreams, wise wisperings and ideas. when humanshape gandalf dies, he basically sheds his mortal shape, goes back to mama and crafts himself a new one, much like Sauron would have done, had he not sealed away most of his power in the ring (which he needed to do).
when palpatine dies, that's all that happens.
he may come back as a force-spirit, or his conscience may be infused in a clone (I'm unfamiliar with how it works in the EU..but didn't we disqualify EU already anyway?)..
to make a comparison..should you nuke gandalf, he'd go "well..crap..now I have to start again"..whereas should you nuke palpatine he wouldn't say a thing..on account of being dead...which in my view hands victory to gandalf.

the problem is..what constitutes victory?
is it the experiencing of death on the part of one or the other contender?
if so, gandalf can't really die unles Eru himself unmakes him (eru has explicitly granted mortality to humans..but gandalf is both antecedent and "other than human")..so I would object that the loss of his human form is merely a setback to gandalf, however painful and traumatic, the way Sauron was set back by loosing his human form to Isildur's cutting of of his finger/power source. sauron has not experienced death, nor would, I think, Gandalf should he be "cut down".
palpatine on the other hand, fancy sith powers aside, is and remains human.
we're talking different orders of magnitude here..


if the mere "physical death" does not suffice to declare victory and we need a perma-death..do we have any indication that force-ghosts can be killed? I don't remember anything about it in the movies.
if not, Gandalf can't be killed but neither can palpatine...so it's a draw.

in any other scenario, Palpatine should first find a way to cut gandalf off from his power..and I mean "the power of being him"..so to speak...his very nature of immortal being.

unless gandalf casts most of his power someplace or into something the way Sauron did..which was a stupid thing to do, in the greater picture, I don't see that happen.

Blacky the Blackball
2011-11-28, 08:03 AM
We've already seen it happen, because Obi-Wan Kenobi is Gandalf.

Fight 1:

Obi-Wan Kenobi Gandalf The Grey threatens that if Palpatine's minion (Darth Vader) strikes him down, he'll come back more powerful than he could possibly imagine.

Vader kills Obi-Wan Kenobi Gandalf The Grey (who doesn't defend himself) in a single blow with his lightsaber.

Fight 2:

Obi-Wan Kenobi's Ghost Gandalf The White whispers invisibly to Darth Vader while Palpatine is attacking Luke Skywalker, and Vader shrugs off Palpatine's influence just as Theoden King shrugs off Wormtongues influence.

Darth Vader throws Palpatine down the reactor shaft.

The Succubus
2011-11-28, 08:49 AM
There are plenty of SW fans (and ex-fans) that would like to forget the prequels exist.

:mitd:: What prequels?

WalkingTarget
2011-11-28, 09:12 AM
Gandalf explicitly can die to completely mundane weight of numbers, as that passage from the Hobbit proves.

Agreed.


The way you put limits to it is simple: you take his ability to shatter the wooden staff of a wizard whose power is waning, and you use that as a lower limit. We know he can do that. We have zero evidence whatsoever that he can do more that that, to tougher materials possessed by entities that are more powerful than said wizard.

I'd go a bit farther. His ability to shatter Saruman's staff is a result of him having Authority and Saruman losing it. The "rods of the five wizards" being their symbols of authority - analogous to a ruler's scepter or field marshal's baton. By destroying Saruman's staff, he's displaying for all present to see that he really has been deposed. The staff is partly symbolic, though. It's not like Gandalf lost his power after his staff broke in Moria. They seem to be useful tools or foci for what powers the Istari have, but I'm not certain that Saruman couldn't just make a new one if he'd lost it through some accident rather than being stripped of his position by Gandalf.

Long story short: Saruman's staff is broken due to being stripped of his power/authority, not the other way around. At least, that's always been my reading of the situation.


...Gandalf the White who's weaker than the Witch-King of Angmar ...


Wait weaker then the Witch-King? No. Seriously that breaking staff thing I heard mention, from the movies only. Compare and contrast Gandalf the Grey having a fight with all the Nazgul on Weathertop.

My memory of Witch-king vs. Gandalf: it's a pairing that Gandalf is unsure of but which is, ultimately, untested. The point where they would finally have a showdown is just as the gate of Minas Tirith fell, but then the Rohirrim arrive and the WK leaves to handle that rather than pressing the issue with Gandalf who is similarly distracted from pursuit by the issue of Denethor and Faramir.


the reason why gandalf gets his resurrection and palpatine doesn't, is because it isn't a resurrection but a "re-imbodiement".. gandalf is ultimately a higher being who is lessened by the very act of taking a physical form. his earliest appearances are in the guise of dreams, wise wisperings and ideas. when humanshape gandalf dies, he basically sheds his mortal shape, goes back to mama and crafts himself a new one, much like Sauron would have done, had he not sealed away most of his power in the ring (which he needed to do).
[snip]
to make a comparison..should you nuke gandalf, he'd go "well..crap..now I have to start again"..whereas should you nuke palpatine he wouldn't say a thing..on account of being dead...which in my view hands victory to gandalf.
[snip]
gandalf can't really die unles Eru himself unmakes him (eru has explicitly granted mortality to humans..but gandalf is both antecedent and "other than human")..so I would object that the loss of his human form is merely a setback to gandalf, however painful and traumatic, the way Sauron was set back by loosing his human form to Isildur's cutting of of his finger/power source. sauron has not experienced death, nor would, I think, Gandalf should he be "cut down".
[snip]
Gandalf can't be killed but neither can palpatine...so it's a draw.

[and, snip]

unless gandalf casts most of his power someplace or into something the way Sauron did..which was a stupid thing to do, in the greater picture, I don't see that happen.

Sorry to burst your bubble, dehro, but the taking on a human form really did impart what that implies upon him - Gandalf died and left the circles of the world after the Balrog incident ("I strayed out of thought and time" - a phrase marked out by Tolkien in a letter as explicitly evidence of this). That's why he could know fear; death was final. Sauron's trick was that he had made the Ring, otherwise being slain, bodily was a danger for him as well - taking an actual, permanent, physical body is inherently perilous for the Ainur.

Gandalf was "sent back" by Eru, he didn't come back of his own accord.

Traab
2011-11-28, 09:23 AM
About the whole weight of numbers thing. I always took that scene in the hobbit with gandalf as him readying a suicide technique, hurling himself down as an explosive bolt of lightning to destroy as many of the goblins as they could in order for the dwarves and the hobbit to survive. Not so much, "Im gonna jump outta this here tree and kill as many as I can before they swarm me under." Im not saying he couldnt be killed by sufficient numbers, im just saying that that example isnt a good one.

dehro
2011-11-28, 11:27 AM
Sorry to burst your bubble, dehro, but the taking on a human form really did impart what that implies upon him - Gandalf died and left the circles of the world after the Balrog incident ("I strayed out of thought and time" - a phrase marked out by Tolkien in a letter as explicitly evidence of this). That's why he could know fear; death was final. Sauron's trick was that he had made the Ring, otherwise being slain, bodily was a danger for him as well - taking an actual, permanent, physical body is inherently perilous for the Ainur.

Gandalf was "sent back" by Eru, he didn't come back of his own accord.

I remember that line...it's all very poetic and doesn't really say "I got killed" nor "I got knocked out"... I do seem to remember however that valar and maia weren't bound to the mortal shapes they decided to appear in.
I don't recall right now who it was, whether a valar or a maia, but I remember several of them taking elvish form or human, as suited their best interest at the time. if this is true it stands to reason that their mortal shape is but a heavy garment. if you remove it the being underneath will feel the cold and maybe get the sniffles..but be otherwise undiminished
and no... Sauron wasn't making a horcrux when he made the one ring. he had to do so to control the other rings...and had to split his power to succeed..it wasn't a way to cheat death...in fact, if he had not lost the ring after splitting his power, he'd have returned to power much, much sooned than he did. gandalf is not similarly "split" and has complete control of all his power, only limited by the costraints placed upon him by his mortal shape of the moment.. and eventually by limitations he received by manwe and the other valar who ordered him to not act directly (something that didn't apply to balrogs, apparently, on whose tushie he went all out).. I don't know that gandalf would be restrained from acting full throttle against palpatine.
palpatine has nothing as effective in his favour...that is, unless surviving as a force-ghost is enough to invalidate gandalf's claim to victory. in that case, I doubt gandalf would even want to try utterly destroying him.

zimmerwald1915
2011-11-28, 01:00 PM
Sorry to burst your bubble, dehro, but the taking on a human form really did impart what that implies upon him - Gandalf died and left the circles of the world after the Balrog incident ("I strayed out of thought and time" - a phrase marked out by Tolkien in a letter as explicitly evidence of this). That's why he could know fear; death was final. Sauron's trick was that he had made the Ring, otherwise being slain, bodily was a danger for him as well - taking an actual, permanent, physical body is inherently perilous for the Ainur.

Gandalf was "sent back" by Eru, he didn't come back of his own accord.
Remember that the Ainur who entered the World bound themselves to it thereby. They are immortal in exactly the way you and Tolkien appreciate the term: they are unable to leave Ea and come before Eru until the very ending of the World. Only Morgoth among the Ainur has been cast out of the World, and even he cannot be said to have wholly left. A fragment of his very spirit is present in every particle of matter in the World. Any theory that Gandalf came before Eru, and was returned to Middle-Earth and a body by him, must come to grips with this, the fundamental nature of the Ainur. Either something about Gandalf's body was special, unlike those of other Ainur to the extent that it made a mortal out of an immortal, or we must accept a different reading.

We have seen the bodies of two Ainur destroyed, and have been told about several others. Sauron himself has taken and shed many bodies over the centuries. Huan cast him out of his wolf-form, he lost access to his Annatar body some time in the Second Age, the Akkalabeth and the Breaking of the World took from him his deceiving beauty altogether, and he lost his last body when Frodo, Sam, and Gollum stripped from him "the greater part of the strength that was native to him in the beginning." At no point when his body was destroyed did Sauron leave the World, either for the Void or to come before Eru. Each time, indeed, he remained a spirit in Middle-Earth, and so he remains still, a ghost of his own malice just as he once was of Morgoth's, though much more feeble. Saruman's body was destroyed by Grima, and unlike Sauron his spirit sought, for a brief moment of desperation an insincere repentance, reprieve from Valinor. It was denied him, and he too remains a spirit in Middle-Earth. Many Balrogs have been slain in the history of Middle-Earth, though any records detailing what their deaths looked like vanished with the Eldar into the House of Mandos and with Gandalf into Valinor. Other Ainur who dwelt long in Middle-Earth are either unaccounted for, like the remaining Istari, or departed for Valinor like Melian.

A reading of Gandalf's words much more consistent with what we know from seeing the "deaths" of other Ainur is that his spirit came from Zirak-Zigil not to Eru but to Valinor. Unlike Saruman and Sauron, he died in grace and the Valar accepted him across the Straight Way. Also as a consequence of remaining in grace, he could be clothed in another body, and was, and in this new body returned to Zirak-Zigil. This is consistent with Gandalf's having "strayed out of thought and time." Valinor remains within Ea, but no longer has a place upon Arda. Ultimately, of course, Eru is responsible for Gandalf's return to Middle-Earth, because the decision to send him back would have been handed down by Manwe who knows something of the mind of Eru. Gandalf himself, however, would never have had to leave the World, contradicting his nature. Interestingly enough, if he had left the World entirely, he would have been unfit to return to Middle-Earth, since such an act of rebellion against his own nature is just as heinous to Eru as the Nine's grasping at ring-made immortality or Miriel's sorrowful relinquishing of the World. As an aside, one wonders what became of Luthien when she came before Eru, but that is neither here nor there.

To try to get back to the topic, has anybody mentioned the incident which occurs just after Gandalf is clothed in a new body and returned to the peak of Zirak-Zigil? He arrives in Middle-Earth just as Frodo exposes himself to Sauron's influence on Amon Hen. He is able to "strive with the Dark Tower" from that "high place" and beat back Sauron to the extent that Frodo is free to choose whether or not to remove the Ring. Ultimately it is Frodo's choice to remove the Ring and thus shield himself a little while longer from Sauron's sight, but that is not important for this discussion. What is important is that it demonstrates Gandalf's personal power relative to Sauron's. In that particular contest, and it is unknown how much of themselves each devoted to it, though both would have considered deciding the fate of the One Ring worth a great deal of energy, Gandalf was able to fight Sauron to a standstill. This doesn't say anything about Gandalf's power against Palpatine's directly, but it must be helpful to know that Gandalf has it within him to oppose, directly and, given the outcome, successfully, the most powerful incarnated being in Middle-Earth at the time.

WalkingTarget
2011-11-28, 01:30 PM
Excerpts from Letter 156:

"Gandalf really 'died', and was changed: for that seems to me the only real cheating, to represent anything that can be called 'death' as making no difference. 'I am G. the White, who has returned from death'."

"There are naturally no precise modern terms to say what he was. I wd. venture to say that he was an incarnate 'angel' [...] By 'incarnate' I mean they were embodied in physical bodies capable of pain, and weariness, and of afflicting the spirit with physical fear, and of being 'killed', though supported by the angelic spirit they might endure long, and only show slowly the wearing of care and labour."

"For in his condition it was for him a sacrifice to perish on the Bridge in defence of his companions, less perhaps than for a mortal Man or Hobbit, since he had a far greater inner power than they; but also more, since it was a humbling and abnegation of himself in conformity to 'the Rules': for all he could know at that moment he was the only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron successfully, and all his mission was vain. He was handing over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving up personal hope of success.

That I should say is what the Authority wished, as a set-off to Saruman. The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. 'Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.' Of course he remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater."

"He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back – for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'. Naked is alas! unclear. It was meant just literally, 'unclothed like a child' (not discarnate), and so ready to receive the white robes of the highest. Galadriel's power is not divine, and his healing in Lórien is meant to be no more than physical healing and refreshment."

Tolkien seems to regard Gandalf as having been singled out by Authority (and not just the Valar in the West, which implies Eru) to have been sent back.

You can treat this as death of the author if you like, but the letter seems pretty clear cut to me.

Edit - rereading this stuff, though, I'll backtrack and note that Gandalf's situation seems to be an exception rather than the rule for incarnate Maiar. Building a body is bad news, but doesn't necessarily result in "death" as it would normally be understood for humanity.

Urist
2011-11-28, 01:59 PM
I'm not particularly knowledgeable of the metaphysical state of the Ainur, Valar, Mair, etc., so I'm not gonna worry about this one. However, Force Ghost came up, but one unfortunate wrinkle: Palpatine never was capable of existing as a Force Ghost. He was capable of existing for a short time as a spirit to possess other bodies, but Force Ghost was not something he ever displayed.

Da'Shain
2011-11-28, 02:02 PM
My thinking on the matter is they ultimately fail. Hordes of orcs fail, the Balrog fails, Sauron et all fails. Gandalf though not without his trials succeeds in his mission in the end. He was sent to inspire the races of men to rally and oppose the darkness without opposing Sauron through sheer force. In this he succeeds and task complete leaves.

Its why I think that the way Gandalf would handle the situation is to raise up Middle Earth against Palps and rob the guy of all his political power.The fact that they fail does not mean Gandalf was never in danger. There is a logical disconnect there that I don't think you're getting. Almost every hero in fiction succeeds in the end. Does that mean that the odds stacked against them didn't have a chance of killing them in the first place?

Also, the premise of the thread is explicitly a physical confrontation between the two. We could theoretically debate the two's relative political skills, but that would be even more nebulous a discussion that this one.


Pretty much everything Feanor does, Fingolfin's ride to Angband scattering hosts before him. Glorfindel rescuing Frodo. The time Sauron was driven out of Dol Guldur to bring on the Watchful Peace. Aragorn at Erech.

On the other end, the Nazgul run entirely off it. None of those are examples of Gandalf, or anyone else for that matter, being able to simply stop a Force-user's powers from working. I wasn't asking for general uses of the "power" or "countenance" or w/e that Tolkien characters have, I was asking for actual evidence that they could do something specific.


You could get a nuke, put the Ring ontop of it before setting the nuke. And you would go back to find the Ring unharmed. Why even ask.Because you said you don't know how to put limits to this power. So is it fair to say that this power has a limit? He can't shatter the One Ring. Therefore, he can't shatter everything.


Shattering an army would be opposing Sauron through force. Something which he does on several occasions, unless beating Orcs' skulls in with his sword and staff doesn't count as opposing Sauron through force.


On further reflection I've come to the conclusion its not a matter of shattering objects, the staff merely had a sympathetic reaction to its master's power being broken. Ergo Gandalf opposed Saruman in a battle of wills and won. Now how much of Saruman's power is debatable certainly fleeing, as becoming evil (or rather betraying your purpose) is a consistent route to power loss in Tolkien's writings.Okay then. So he had the power to do so, most likely, because Saruman's power was already waning and Gandalf was able to out-will him, essentially.

Nothing about this suggests he'd be able to do the same to Palpatine. Becoming evil most decidedly does not lead to power loss in Star Wars


Gandalf did still break the bridge in Moria and lost his own staff as Gandalf the Grey there.Alright, another concrete feat. So Gandalf can still break things, although in order to do this one he had to use his staff. Also, I do not have Fellowship handy; does he break the bridge clean off, or is it similar to the movie in that he "smites" the bridge, weakening it so that it collapses under the Balrog's weight?


Ehh loosely possible on the sword fighting, its an open question whether an elven sword of Gondolin could parry blows with a lightsaber. How does magic fair against technology.I admitted that it's perfectly possible that the sword would hold up to the lightsaber, and I'll even grant that it definitely does.


For the second, no. Jedi and Sith use the Force, but they are still men using a tool external to them. An immensely powerful tool but a tool. No matter what Palps can cook up the core of him is just an evil man.Men are quite powerful. Elendil and Gil-Galad together kicked the crap out of the most powerful Maiar on Arda, even though they lost their lives. Aragorn's countenance can seemingly outshine the Nazguls' and stand up to Sauron's (admittedly displaced) wrath. To say that someone is "just a man", even in Tolkien's work, is silly, as Men are destined to inherit the world. "Just a man" in Star Wars is equally silly, especially when talking about Force-users.


And that conscious choice is significant to what he was doing, writing pure myth and fairy tale in the old form. Ironically the modern fantasy he spawned is often the antithesis of his approach with its obsessive need to dig deeper and have some underlying forces at play.

Its rather like taking a painting and instead of enjoying the painting you subject it to a careful mathematical analysis of its dimensions, construction, arrangement, and chemical composition of the paint. Then having put all that data in plain text on a printout, trying to understand the painting from the printout.Lol, there's no such thing as pure myth and fairy tale, as all of them are bastardizations and amalgamations of older stories and songs! And this fetishizing of such tales as pure and untainted by analysis is quite frankly ridiculous, especially in the context of this thread. If we can't actually quantify the characters in any sort of fashion, then there's no point to this discussion at all and we just have to fall back on mights and maybes, which mean nothing but conjecture.


Wait weaker then the Witch-King? No. Seriously that breaking staff thing I heard mention, from the movies only. Compare and contrast Gandalf the Grey having a fight with all the Nazgul on Weathertop.As I said, I don't have the LotR trilogy handy, but I'm fairly certain that Gandalf and the Witch-King were about to face off and Gandalf was at the very least uncertain of his chances.


Normally I would say you have a point, except with Tolkien that off screen element is purposeful. They are a throw back to the old style where people weren't so categorized as "6'7, 300 lbs, Hair:blonde, Eyes:Black" but as "a great tall man with hair like the sun and strength unrivaled" and that in our transition to the modern world we have lost something important.

So statting Gandalf isn't simply difficult its missing the point.I'm not trying to make Gandalf's character sheet, but without knowing what he's capable of there's absolutely no point in discussing how he relates to characters from other fictional universes. You may think that trying to actually understand what Gandalf can and cannot do is "missing the point", but I think not trying to do so is backwards thinking.



About the whole weight of numbers thing. I always took that scene in the hobbit with gandalf as him readying a suicide technique, hurling himself down as an explosive bolt of lightning to destroy as many of the goblins as they could in order for the dwarves and the hobbit to survive. Not so much, "Im gonna jump outta this here tree and kill as many as I can before they swarm me under." Im not saying he couldnt be killed by sufficient numbers, im just saying that that example isnt a good one.Er, it explicitly says that jumping down among the goblin's spears would be the end of him. I'm not really sure how that doesn't mean that he'll die to spears.

Traab
2011-11-28, 02:08 PM
Er, it explicitly says that jumping down among the goblin's spears would be the end of him. I'm not really sure how that doesn't mean that he'll die to spears.

Didnt the passage describe him seeming to grow in splendor and other such descriptions that could mean he was preparing to power up some sort of final attack? I mean lets face it, throwing himself down onto spears would be pretty damn useless and really only be a choice of method of dying.

WalkingTarget
2011-11-28, 02:14 PM
Alright, another concrete feat. So Gandalf can still break things, although in order to do this one he had to use his staff. Also, I do not have Fellowship handy; does he break the bridge clean off, or is it similar to the movie in that he "smites" the bridge, weakening it so that it collapses under the Balrog's weight?

"At that moment Gandalf lifted his staff and crying aloud he smote the bridge before him. The staff broke asunder and fell from his hand. A blinding sheet of white flame sprang up. The bridge cracked. Right at the Balrog's feet it broke, and the stone upon which it stood crashed into the gulf, while the rest remained, poised, quivering like a tongue of rock thrust out into emptiness."

Unlike in the film, the rest of the bridge collapses too, just after Gandalf had already been pulled off of it (or, at the least, we don't see the bridge fall in the film).

Da'Shain
2011-11-28, 02:18 PM
p. 200: ... but also because of the danger which now threatened Gandalf and his friends. ... Now you can understand why Gandalf, listening to their growling and yelping, began to be dreadfully afraid, wizard though he was, and to feel that they were in a very bad place, and had not yet escaped at all. All the same he was not going to let them have it all their own way, though he could not do very much stuck up in a tall tree with wolves all round on the ground below.

p. 203: He said it to make them angry, and to show them he was not frightened of them—though of course he was, wizard though he was.

p. 204: Then Gandalf climbed to the top of his tree. The sudden splendour flashed from his wand like lightning, as he got ready to spring down from on high right among the spears of the goblins. That would have been the end of him, though he would probably have killed many of them as he came hurtling down like a thunderbolt. But he never leaped.The wargs are a danger to him AND his friends, not just to his friends. Gandalf is afraid of them and the goblins. Gandalf cannot do very much stuck up in a tree. He prepares to leap down among the goblins as a suicidal move, to try and take as many with him as he can. I really don't see how any reading but one biased that Gandalf cannot die sees this as anything but explicitly saying Gandalf can die to goblins and wargs.



Unlike in the film, the rest of the bridge collapses too, just after Gandalf had already been pulled off of it (or, at the least, we don't see the bridge fall in the film).Alrighty. So his staff broke, but the bridge in the book appears to have sustained more damage; it was still only weakened enough to collapse under the Balrog's weight, though, and then the rest collapsed after the bridge was no longer complete. So there's something he can do, and it's pretty powerful.

Traab
2011-11-28, 02:25 PM
p. 204: Then Gandalf climbed to the top of his tree. The sudden splendour flashed from his wand like lightning, as he got ready to spring down from on high right among the spears of the goblins. That would have been the end of him, though he would probably have killed many of them as he came hurtling down like a thunderbolt. But he never leaped.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The wargs are a danger to him AND his friends, not just to his friends. Gandalf is afraid of them and the goblins. Gandalf cannot do very much stuck up in a tree. He prepares to leap down among the goblins as a suicidal move, to try and take as many with him as he can. I really don't see how any reading but one biased that Gandalf cannot die sees this as anything but explicitly saying Gandalf can die to goblins and wargs.


I agree with you, my only question is, do you think it was just going to be gandalf jumping out of the tree and trying to kill some goblins before he gets slaughtered? Or some sort of self immolating explosion type of effect that would devastate the goblins but cause his own death? With the line about his wand/staff it sounded to me like he was charging up for something big.

Emmerask
2011-11-28, 02:29 PM
Alrighty. So his staff broke, but the bridge in the book appears to have sustained more damage; it was still only weakened enough to collapse under the Balrog's weight, though, and then the rest collapsed after the bridge was no longer complete. So there's something he can do, and it's pretty powerful.

More along the lines of he can do it once destroying a major artifact, so I would say that in general this is quite outside of gandalf (they grays) powerlevel.

Liffguard
2011-11-28, 05:57 PM
I think one of the problems with any LOTR versus discussion is that prowess and power in Middle Earth doesn't work in the same way as real life or most fictional settings.

If two people get into a fight in real life (or indeed, in most other fictional settings) the outcome depends on lots of factors. Who is stronger? Fitter? More skilled? More experienced? What's their mental state like? Does fighter A's personal style have any particular advantages over fighter B, or vice versa? Who simply turns out to be luckier on the day? etc. This could equally be applied to most magic systems.

That's not really the way things work in ME, which draws upon a sort of quasi-mythical concept of internal might. When fighters A and B clash it's not a contest between various physical and mental factors, it's a sheer battle of internal might. By all logical considerations, a Balrog should be able to just step on Ecthelion due to considerations of physical size. But that's irrelevent, Ecthelion was a mighty hero and when he pit himself against the balrog it was simply his internal force against his enemy's.

Magic in ME works the same way, or rather, there is no such thing as magic in ME. "Magic" is just people working on the world around them with their internal strength of will. When Morgoth lays a curse on Hurin and his children he's not manipulating the rules of some external system of magic. He simply exerts his will and it is done. Gandalf is the same, he is not using magic, his force of will effectively is magic. People can imbue items with their will and might, such as when Feanor made the Silmarils. Or they can extend their strength over entire areas and exert their will like with Melian.

Okay, so I got a bit rambly there. My basic point is that conflict in ME isn't really tactical as such. Gandalf doesn't have a spell list and you can't really compare explicit abilities of character A against character B. The world is much more mythic than that and not really explicitly defined.

dehro
2011-11-28, 07:18 PM
The wargs are a danger to him AND his friends, not just to his friends. Gandalf is afraid of them and the goblins. Gandalf cannot do very much stuck up in a tree. He prepares to leap down among the goblins as a suicidal move, to try and take as many with him as he can. I really don't see how any reading but one biased that Gandalf cannot die sees this as anything but explicitly saying Gandalf can die to goblins and wargs.


or maybe the wargs were a danger to the mission and being disembodied was not something gandalf was prepared to let happen..

more to the point..people who state that gandalf's mortality is somehow demonstrated by his fear, anguish, pain etc etc... all these things remain true whether one knows one is going to die or not...
in other words, if I knew that someone was about to cut my hand off with an axe and then re-attach it or cure the stump so that I wouldn't die from the wound alone... I may very well know that I'm going to survive it ..but I'm still going to crap my pants and feel rather squeemish about it.
on top of that...dying would be a new, and quite radical experience for any maia..for gandalf in particular..and still contain a fair share of unknown and mistery. we know balrogs have died and..either been cast out of existence or have ended like being a shadow of their former existence. gandalf knows this too.. and he's a humble guy... he didn't want to go to middle earth because he was unsure he was up to the challenge..he didn't want to lead the white council because he felt saruman was more knowledgeable and he didn't want to be tied down to the role... in other words..gandalf may have some very definite misgivings about his physical form dying...despite his considerable wisdom..and despite even prior knowledge of the fact that he wouldn't in fact, die. and we should consider that gandalf, up until when it happened, had no way of being sure that he would have a chance to return..as opposed to being judged a failure and condemned into a spirit form.

so... palpatine doesn't know how to do the shiny force ghost thing?... then he's pretty much screwed, imho....for the many reasons several people (And myself) have already exposed.

on another note.. the whole..technology against magic... it's a tough one..for all we know lightsabers don't even work in middle earth..the existence of the force and magic in the same place cancel out one another.. the force is enhanced by magic... hell..maybe a magical attunement to the force is what gives elves their immortality, thereby making palpatine an immortal powerhouse.. or maybe it's the other way around..and there is no force at all in middle earth, thereby reducing palpatine to a glorified acrobatic swashbuckler with arthritis and a silver tongue.
maybe the OP should detail what the conditions are vis ŕ vis magic, force and how they compare to one another...or whether they co-exist at all in middle earth.

Comrade
2011-11-28, 07:22 PM
for all we know lightsabers don't even work in middle earth..the existence of the force and magic in the same place cancel out one another.

Lightsaber crystals, which power the blade, aren't dependent on the force (most are not, anyway, though some do interact with the Force--assuming Palpatine's, however, does not). That's why non-Force users can use lightsabers as well.

Weezer
2011-11-28, 07:32 PM
Lightsaber crystals, which power the blade, aren't dependent on the force (most are not, anyway, though some do interact with the Force--assuming Palpatine's, however, does not). That's why non-Force users can use lightsabers as well.

Correct. They require force use in their forging (specifically in the alignment of the crystals IIRC) but not in their use.

Gnoman
2011-11-28, 09:05 PM
drippings of fanboys who can draw or work a typewriter. That is the reason why EU wouldn't count

You do realize that Lucasfilm has, and exercises constantly, unlimted, unquestioning veto power over every word, drop of ink, or pixel connected with the Star Wars brand, don't you?

FatJose
2011-11-28, 09:22 PM
You do realize that Lucasfilm has, and exercises constantly, unlimted, unquestioning veto power over every word, drop of ink, or pixel connected with the Star Wars brand, don't you?

Why did you quote me to repeat me in nicer words? Also, phrasing it in the form of a question?

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-28, 09:28 PM
If "statting Gandalf is missing the point", then trying to argue a versus thread with Gandalf in it is missing the point too, as it requires using some baseline comparison between Palpatine and Gandalf, and "statting" them is the best way to do it.

Generally speaking, indeed this is why I think you don't see LOTR pop up that often for versus.

Particularly because while in another stories one could dismiss vague references as so much hyperbole but here its for a particular reason. We know Gandalf is more powerful then what is display when out witness hobbits are around.


The fact that they fail does not mean Gandalf was never in danger. There is a logical disconnect there that I don't think you're getting. Almost every hero in fiction succeeds in the end. Does that mean that the odds stacked against them didn't have a chance of killing them in the first place?

No I was wrong before. What otherwise is your point?


None of those are examples of Gandalf, or anyone else for that matter, being able to simply stop a Force-user's powers from working. I wasn't asking for general uses of the "power" or "countenance" or w/e that Tolkien characters have, I was asking for actual evidence that they could do something specific.

That is something specific though, this is how "magic" works in Arda. They have Power and Will. They put simply don't need showy powers, just being a really epic person.


Because you said you don't know how to put limits to this power. So is it fair to say that this power has a limit? He can't shatter the One Ring. Therefore, he can't shatter everything.

And what its not a question of whether he


Something which he does on several occasions, unless beating Orcs' skulls in with his sword and staff doesn't count as opposing Sauron through force.

Obviously because he's doing nothing a particularly talented soldier couldn't do. Through of will and might as a Maiar is what he isn't supposed to do, because the point of the end of the Third Age is the beginning of Men and end of the rule of more "magical" forces like the Elves and Valar. Acting as a motivator and fighter Gandalf is doing what is within men to do.


Okay then. So he had the power to do so, most likely, because Saruman's power was already waning and Gandalf was able to out-will him, essentially.

Nothing about this suggests he'd be able to do the same to Palpatine. Becoming evil most decidedly does not lead to power loss in Star Wars

The signifigance comes from that in a battle of will as far as I'm concerned Gandalf is simply more then Palpatine because Gandalf is a timeless entity older then the sun and moon and such. Ergo he wins.


Men are quite powerful. Elendil and Gil-Galad together kicked the crap out of the most powerful Maiar on Arda, even though they lost their lives. Aragorn's countenance can seemingly outshine the Nazguls' and stand up to Sauron's (admittedly displaced) wrath. To say that someone is "just a man", even in Tolkien's work, is silly, as Men are destined to inherit the world. "Just a man" in Star Wars is equally silly, especially when talking about Force-users.

There's a reason for that. Elendil is not a man but a descendant of Earendil and Elwing through Elros. Two Half-Elves descended from the greatest lords of the Noldor and Sindar. Including Thingol and his wife Melian the Maia. And all the Men of Numernor were granted blessings for their service against Morgoth.

Gil-Galad likewise is of the Noldor high lords, the blood of the those that went to Valinor.

There are reasons for those that have power, and especially among men its not guaranteed. Even Eonwyn benefited from essentially a loophole (and Merry had a Westron sword) and she is probably the most outstanding of the non-Edain.



Lol, there's no such thing as pure myth and fairy tale, as all of them are bastardizations and amalgamations of older stories and songs! And this fetishizing of such tales as pure and untainted by analysis is quite frankly ridiculous, especially in the context of this thread. If we can't actually quantify the characters in any sort of fashion, then there's no point to this discussion at all and we just have to fall back on mights and maybes, which mean nothing but conjecture.

Yes, again this is why its a good thing LOTR characters don't pop up much. Because they don't fit into the wonderfully "rationally determined" (to use the term loosely) categories that make up versus threads.



As I said, I don't have the LotR trilogy handy, but I'm fairly certain that Gandalf and the Witch-King were about to face off and Gandalf was at the very least uncertain of his chances.

Well which is not weaker. Its not impossible for the Witch-King as the chief warrior of Sauron to be entirely out of his league fighting Gandalf.


I'm not trying to make Gandalf's character sheet, but without knowing what he's capable of there's absolutely no point in discussing how he relates to characters from other fictional universes. You may think that trying to actually understand what Gandalf can and cannot do is "missing the point", but I think not trying to do so is backwards thinking.

And the final result is that Gandalf's greatest feats are not detailed in any depth that allows analysis but still definitely happen. And as he's not the only one to work this way even coming up with a general baseline for the mighty of Middle-Earth is not possible.


Alrighty. So his staff broke, but the bridge in the book appears to have sustained more damage; it was still only weakened enough to collapse under the Balrog's weight, though, and then the rest collapsed after the bridge was no longer complete. So there's something he can do, and it's pretty powerful.

That's pure interepretation on your part.

Not that there isn't room for that in the scene. Serious Tolkien fans can't even nail down whether the Balrog has wings or not. It was definitely smaller in the book though, maybe, but more defined by shadow then flame as in the movie. Whether it even has weight as we think it is something I'd personally doubt was considered in the writing.

Urist
2011-11-28, 09:48 PM
So again, why argue the point that Gandalf is more powerful than Palpatine? By your logic, we don't honestly know.

My two cents, though, is that, Ainur or not, Palpatine beats Gandalf in any arena of displayed competence. Leader and manipulator of men? HHestaged a galactic war, manipulated trillions, all for the sake of gaining one man as an apprentice. Swordsman? Palpatine displays preternatural skill with a sword, moving his sword fast enough in his duel with Mace that it appears more like a crimson dome of light surrounding him(Revenge of the Sith Novelization). Magical powers? Palpatine has mind manipulation, telekinesis of huge objects, immense energy projection, ability to cloud the perceptions of thousands of remarkably powerful clairsentients(Jedi Order) and generally fool his closest allies as to his identity for years. Gandalf's displayed power is a magnitude smaller, he has no chance. based on what we can see.

Gnoman
2011-11-28, 09:56 PM
Why did you quote me to repeat me in nicer words? Also, phrasing it in the form of a question?

I was arguing the exact opposite of what ou were saying, unless you were being sarcastic. The EU is no more "fanfiction" than The Wrath of Kahn or The Empire Strikes Back (which Gene Roddenberry and George Lucas respectively had fairly little creative control over, making them fanfiction by the standards many of the EU-haters harp on.)

FatJose
2011-11-28, 10:02 PM
Novelizations? If any of that was true, it would have been in the movie. Matrix Revolution came out 2 years before Sith and it wasn't even a Lucasfilm. Whatever awesome stuff is described in a book, could easily been shown in the movie. If he could actually do that with his sword, we'd have seen it. Instead we were treated to an old man dancing rigidly with a shiny baton and lots of face shots of characters who had been established to be bad asses in all EU content dieing worse than a common storm trooper.

We can't gauge Gandalf that well, but the fact that we cant is more telling of his power than Palpatine being able to throw less-fatal-than-natural lightning and floating platforms at people.


I was arguing the exact opposite of what ou were saying, unless you were being sarcastic. The EU is no more "fanfiction" than The Wrath of Kahn or The Empire Strikes Back (which Gene Roddenberry and George Lucas respectively had fairly little creative control over, making them fanfiction by the standards many of the EU-haters harp on.)

No, they aren't. Lucas accepted Empire as canon, Khan is also canon. For fleshed out settings it is expected that there will be many people involved. The difference is that Lucas didn't make a movie the day after that says Empire never happened. Star Trek, Forgotten Realms, Marvel, DC; all these settings have many writers involved but they "try" to keep consistency and not step on each others toes.
Stan Lee let go of his characters a long time ago. He gets a check as the creator in the mail and let's others continue the stories. As did Roddenberry.
Lucas gives absolutely no credit or respect to the Expanded Universe. Even though the only reason he could make the prequels is because those writers kept Star Wars alive for decades. How does Ahsoka fit into continuity? Even without EU? Just the movies? Lucas stated the show's canon and he's in love with the series "for now." Why completely rewrite Mandalorian canon, which is ridiculously fleshed out, in a single episode of CW when a quick look at Wookiepedia for reference would have done the job?
Why is anyone bringing EU into this when the creator of Star Wars doesn't even consider it?

If Word of God is so damn important to what is considered canon why aren't people paying attention to Denial of God?

Xondoure
2011-11-28, 10:10 PM
So again, why argue the point that Gandalf is more powerful than Palpatine? By your logic, we don't honestly know.

My two cents, though, is that, Ainur or not, Palpatine beats Gandalf in any arena of displayed competence. Leader and manipulator of men? HHestaged a galactic war, manipulated trillions, all for the sake of gaining one man as an apprentice. Swordsman? Palpatine displays preternatural skill with a sword, moving his sword fast enough in his duel with Mace that it appears more like a crimson dome of light surrounding him(Revenge of the Sith Novelization). Magical powers? Palpatine has mind manipulation, telekinesis of huge objects, immense energy projection, ability to cloud the perceptions of thousands of remarkably powerful clairsentients(Jedi Order) and generally fool his closest allies as to his identity for years. Gandalf's displayed power is a magnitude smaller, he has no chance. based on what we can see.

Palpatine also was picked up and thrown. Then he fell. Then he died: no leaping out of Vader's one handed grip, no lightsaber flashing through Vader's heart, no mind manipulation causing him to stop, no using Telekinesis to save his fall or wrench his enemies down with him by pulling down the bridge, I'll give you energy projection but its about as useless as anything else so long as you flip him on his back. As for the rest they don't apply to the situation, and they can all be argued much more effectively. So you're right Palpatine probably wins since its not as if Gandalf has faced an incredibly powerful evil entity that had managed to corrupt and betray entire civilizations- oh right. Sauron.

Palps fell.
Gandalf fell to the bottom of the world. Climbed back up to the top, and then died of his wounds he earned fighting an unholy creature of shadow and fire that had wiped out an entire dwarven civilization. Then he came back stronger.

Basically we can't look at their displayed power level because Gandalf is too enigmatic a figure in that respect. So we look at their deeds, especially where close parallels can be drawn.

(SW Canon in my opinion: OT > PT/Clone Wars > Early EU > Later EU)

Psyren
2011-11-28, 11:40 PM
The signifigance comes from that in a battle of will as far as I'm concerned Gandalf is simply more then Palpatine because Gandalf is a timeless entity older then the sun and moon and such. Ergo he wins.


If his will save is so unbeatable, why was he afraid to carry the ring? Or is he just so cruel that he enjoyed putting powerless little people in mortal peril?

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-29, 12:11 AM
Palpatine also was picked up and thrown. Then he fell. Then he died: no leaping out of Vader's one handed grip, no lightsaber flashing through Vader's heart, no mind manipulation causing him to stop, no using Telekinesis to save his fall or wrench his enemies down with him by pulling down the bridge, I'll give you energy projection but its about as useless as anything else so long as you flip him on his back. As for the rest they don't apply to the situation, and they can all be argued much more effectively. So you're right Palpatine probably wins since its not as if Gandalf has faced an incredibly powerful evil entity that had managed to corrupt and betray entire civilizations- oh right. Sauron.

Palps fell.
Gandalf fell to the bottom of the world. Climbed back up to the top, and then died of his wounds he earned fighting an unholy creature of shadow and fire that had wiped out an entire dwarven civilization. Then he came back stronger.

Basically we can't look at their displayed power level because Gandalf is too enigmatic a figure in that respect. So we look at their deeds, especially where close parallels can be drawn.

(SW Canon in my opinion: OT > 90s EU > PT/Clone Wars > Later EU)

Fixed to the only sane SW canon but otherwise. I agree.


If his will save is so unbeatable, why was he afraid to carry the ring? Or is he just so cruel that he enjoyed putting powerless little people in mortal peril?

Sauron is the greatest of the Maiar chief lieutenant of Morgoth, and put the better part of his power into the Ring. Gandalf is mighty, but he's still down the ladder from that. The Ring would love Palpatine and they'd be working together before it was over the last knuckle.

For that matter the Ring is explicitly more of a temptation the greater your power. Frodo even if he fell to temptation was never a suitable wielder of the power of the Ring. Gandalf has the capacity to use it and usurp Sauron. It would literally be the betrayal of everything he's supposed to do to. He's not going to take the risk of replacing one Dark Lord with another.

Da'Shain
2011-11-29, 12:47 AM
or maybe the wargs were a danger to the mission and being disembodied was not something gandalf was prepared to let happen..Just so we're clear: when I say Gandalf can be killed by goblins with spears, I don't mean that Olorin the Maia is going to be wiped from existence. I mean his physical body will die; being disembodied, in this case, means he dies. And he probably wouldn't have been sent back after something like that either.

more to the point..people who state that gandalf's mortality is somehow demonstrated by his fear, anguish, pain etc etc... all these things remain true whether one knows one is going to die or not...If you were immortal they wouldn't remain true. If your body could not die there would be no reason to feel fear of death in said body. If goblins and wargs couldn't end Gandalf's physical existence in Middle Earth, the text wouldn't have stated straight out that they'd be the end of him.

so... palpatine doesn't know how to do the shiny force ghost thing?... then he's pretty much screwed, imho....for the many reasons several people (And myself) have already exposed.One, the "shiny force ghost thing" is utterly useless in an actual battle. Whether Palpatine knows it or not is irrelevant; even if he did, the most he could do with it is advise someone else. Two, what "many reasons"? The only actual argument I've seen someone present that Gandalf actually can defeat Palpatine, power vs. power, is Soras' ridiculous "Palpatine's powers don't work because Gandalf says so, Gandalf beheads him" argument. If Gandalf can't actually kill Palpatine one time, why does it matter if Palpatine can't resurrect?

on another note.. the whole..technology against magic... it's a tough one..for all we know lightsabers don't even work in middle earth..the existence of the force and magic in the same place cancel out one another.. the force is enhanced by magic... hell..maybe a magical attunement to the force is what gives elves their immortality, thereby making palpatine an immortal powerhouse.. or maybe it's the other way around..and there is no force at all in middle earth, thereby reducing palpatine to a glorified acrobatic swashbuckler with arthritis and a silver tongue.
maybe the OP should detail what the conditions are vis ŕ vis magic, force and how they compare to one another...or whether they co-exist at all in middle earth.Such speculation is useless. If the Force doesn't exist, then yes, Palpatine is simply an old man. Conversely, if magic and Maiar and the like don't exist, Gandalf is simply an old man. We're not trying to find out how
magic and the Force interact, we're comparing two characters and whether, with the power we know they have, one could defeat the other. Saying Palpatine's lightsaber doesn't work is ridiculous. I can as easily say that Gandalf's magic is simply the Force, since in the SW universe that's what all magic ultimately is, and Palpatine is perfectly capable of smacking down Force-users.



Generally speaking, indeed this is why I think you don't see LOTR pop up that often for versus.

Particularly because while in another stories one could dismiss vague references as so much hyperbole but here its for a particular reason. We know Gandalf is more powerful then what is display when out witness hobbits are around.We know Gandalf is more powerful than his Gandalf the Grey form. We don't know that he's more powerful than his Gandalf the White form. We sure as heck can't take vague statements of power and countenance as meaning that, despite the powers he displays being obviously less powerful than those Palpatine displays in the movies alone, he must be more powerful anyway.

No I was wrong before. What otherwise is your point?Why would there be a point otherwise? You hadn't acknowledged that your argument was flawed before. Now that you have we can move on.

That is something specific though, this is how "magic" works in Arda. They have Power and Will. They put simply don't need showy powers, just being a really epic person.Again, there's a disconnect here you're not seeing. You say "magic works however it works". I say "magic works however it's been shown to work". There is no instance of magic being capable of completely blocking Force-users off from their powers. There's not even an instance of magic being capable of completely blocking other magic users off from their powers. Hence there's no reason to believe Gandalf, or other LotR magic users, can do that. Sure, you can say they can, but you have no more of a leg to stand on when you do than when I say they can't.

Obviously because he's doing nothing a particularly talented soldier couldn't do. Through of will and might as a Maiar is what he isn't supposed to do, because the point of the end of the Third Age is the beginning of Men and end of the rule of more "magical" forces like the Elves and Valar. Acting as a motivator and fighter Gandalf is doing what is within men to do. That's absurd. He displays magic many times. He clears Theoden's head, he saves the Fellowship from the Balrog, after he comes back he blinds people left and right, he break's Saruman's power, he magics off the Nazgul chasing Faramir ... he uses magic to aid the forces of men several times, directly. If he could have done such a thing to the Orcs to aid men, he would have done so; he was doing everything else.

The signifigance comes from that in a battle of will as far as I'm concerned Gandalf is simply more then Palpatine because Gandalf is a timeless entity older then the sun and moon and such. Ergo he wins.Palpatine's universe has weapons capable of destroying suns and moons and such. The mere fact that something is "timeless" does not equate to power. Trees can live thousands of years; they still die to an axe.

There's a reason for that. Elendil is not a man but a descendant of Earendil and Elwing through Elros. Two Half-Elves descended from the greatest lords of the Noldor and Sindar. Including Thingol and his wife Melian the Maia. And all the Men of Numernor were granted blessings for their service against Morgoth.

Gil-Galad likewise is of the Noldor high lords, the blood of the those that went to Valinor.If Elendil is not a man then what you say was the entire point of the series, men's coming into dominance, is completely and utterly ruined. Yes, Elendil had some gifts. Yes, he had some elf-blood. He is still explicitly a Man. Aragorn is still explicitly a Man. The mere fact that they have special powers does not suddenly mean they are not Men. And guess what? Possessing the Force is a special power.

I was aware that Gil-Galad was an elf, I merely mentioned him because it was the two working together who took Sauron down.

There are reasons for those that have power, and especially among men its not guaranteed. Even Eonwyn benefited from essentially a loophole (and Merry had a Westron sword) and she is probably the most outstanding of the non-Edain.Yes. And Force-users have special powers. Ergo they're not "just men" in the same way that those with the blood of Numenor are not just men.

Yes, again this is why its a good thing LOTR characters don't pop up much. Because they don't fit into the wonderfully "rationally determined" (to use the term loosely) categories that make up versus threads.Everyone fits into vs. threads, considering that you can never come up with a completely clear answer anyway. However, the mere fact that they are portrayed as subtle and possessing poorly defined power does not mean that judging them by what they have actually accomplished is the wrong way to go.

Well which is not weaker. Its not impossible for the Witch-King as the chief warrior of Sauron to be entirely out of his league fighting Gandalf. I'll concede that, as I've said I don't have the actual books here with me and was remembering the deleted scene. But this particular argument is a tangent to my main point, which was that we have a relative power scale in LotR that does not really translate well to other universes.

And the final result is that Gandalf's greatest feats are not detailed in any depth that allows analysis but still definitely happen. And as he's not the only one to work this way even coming up with a general baseline for the mighty of Middle-Earth is not possible.Er ... what were his greatest feats not detailed that still definitely happened? I'd kinda like to know that, as even the mere fact that we know they did happen would be useful in revising his baseline.



Palpatine also was picked up and thrown. Then he fell. Then he died: no leaping out of Vader's one handed grip, no lightsaber flashing through Vader's heart, no mind manipulation causing him to stop, no using Telekinesis to save his fall or wrench his enemies down with him by pulling down the bridge, I'll give you energy projection but its about as useless as anything else so long as you flip him on his back. As for the rest they don't apply to the situation, and they can all be argued much more effectively. So you're right Palpatine probably wins since its not as if Gandalf has faced an incredibly powerful evil entity that had managed to corrupt and betray entire civilizations- oh right. Sauron....

This is just getting ridiculous. Yes. Palpatine died by being thrown a few miles down into an open reactor. Due to being taken completely by surprise. This does not mean that the other stuff he has clearly demonstrated on screen is somehow invalid.

I could start making equally ludicrous arguments like "Gandalf would have died to goblins with spears. Obviously he's a punk. No one who's anyone dies to just goblins. That must mean he's really just a charlatan. He had a book of matches and that's how he set the pinecones on fire. He really just died in the fall down Moria and then the Valar took pity on him and sent him back; he must've lied about actually defeating a demon of shadow and flame. None of his talents are useful at all."

I don't make arguments like that. Why? Because they're utterly specious.

And when did Gandalf face Sauron in direct combat? Ever?


Basically we can't look at their displayed power level because Gandalf is too enigmatic a figure in that respect. So we look at their deeds, especially where close parallels can be drawn.That is what I've been doing, or at least was doing before we got derailed into the whole "Gandalf is obviously powerful enough to defeat Palpatine, because he's all mysterious and epic and stuff!" argument. Let's enumerate them again, shall we?

Telekinesis: Movie Gandalf shows some skill in this in his wizard's duel with Saruman. Book Gandalf? I can't remember a single thing. Even going with Movie Gandalf, he was able to do the equivalent of a Force push and knock another wizard over, multiple times, while he still had his staff, and appeared to lose this ability when he lost the staff. Palpatine tosses car-sized objects around and laughs while he's doing it. Advantage Palpatine.

Energy Projection: Gandalf appears to have some sort of lightning bolt spell, which he used to kill a few goblins in the Hobbit and then may or may not have used against the Balrog (books vs. movies again). He also has some unspecified fire powers, with which he was able to create a shield against the Balrog's sword of flame, set pinecones on fire, and smite a bridge hard enough to make it crumble under the Balrog. Palpatine seems to enjoy using lightning to torture people as evidenced by his use of it on Luke in episode VI, but it displays the ability to fatally wound Darth Vader in seconds, knock Yoda on his butt multiple times, give Mace Windu difficulty deflecting it when we've seen before that the lightning from a lesser Sith (Dooku) can both knock someone out in a single second AND be deflected with almost zero effort by Obi-wan, and immediately overwhelm Mace Windu. Palpatine seems capable of summoning this lightning on a whim and sustaining it for several seconds at the least. We have no evidence of what this would do to a mundane target (say, a goblin), so reluctantly I am forced to admit that, technically, we don't know which is the stronger, and Gandalf's might indeed be more immediately lethal, although I seriously doubt it. Nevertheless, I'll say: advantage Gandalf.

Melee combat: This is no contest. Force-users in the movies explicitly see things before they happen. Lightsaber duels are choreographed similarly to dances for this reason. The Force also explicitly allows superhuman feats of strength, agility and speed; hence Palpatine's ability to leap, flip and jump around as well as match a younger, larger, stronger man strength for strength. Not to mention the fact that he was fighting what were said to be some of the best swordsmen in the Jedi Order, 4 on 1, and killed 3 of them without breaking a sweat. Gandalf is a skilled warrior, but we've seen absolutely nothing from him that suggests he could keep up with this. He hasn't even physically dueled any other really skilled fighters, instead just killing some complete and utter mooks. We have no statements that he's got supernatural strength or speed for this purpose, and he certainly can't see the future. Advantage: clearly Palpatine.

Surviving a Fall: I shouldn't even be discussing this, as the chances of it coming up in a fight are virtually nil. But: Gandalf survived a fall into the deep recesses of the earth along with a demon of some kind. We have no idea how he survived said fall, but he did. The movie makes it fairly clear that the Balrog both definitely has wings and is going to bear the brunt of the fall; it's still impressive to survive such a thing, though. Palpatine died due to a fall of likely similar distance; whether a mundane fall of that distance would kill him or not, we don't actually know, as he landed in an open reactor and pretty much exploded. I don't care what anyone says, this one cannot be called. The two situations are utterly different. Show me Gandalf falling in even a river of lava and surviving and I'll concede it, but the simple fact is, Gandalf survived a fall at terminal velocity while he had an opponent with him that might possibly have broken or slowed his fall, while Palpatine died to a fall at terminal velocity into a reactor outputting science fiction amounts of energy. Advantage: no one.

Feel free to come up with other stuff to compare; I've already written way too much for the night as it is.

Forum Explorer
2011-11-29, 01:13 AM
why has no one bothered to say anything about my analysis? Was it good? Completely wrong? Anything? :smallfrown:

Psyren
2011-11-29, 01:33 AM
Sauron is the greatest of the Maiar chief lieutenant of Morgoth, and put the better part of his power into the Ring. Gandalf is mighty, but he's still down the ladder from that. The Ring would love Palpatine and they'd be working together before it was over the last knuckle.

For that matter the Ring is explicitly more of a temptation the greater your power. Frodo even if he fell to temptation was never a suitable wielder of the power of the Ring. Gandalf has the capacity to use it and usurp Sauron. It would literally be the betrayal of everything he's supposed to do to. He's not going to take the risk of replacing one Dark Lord with another.

All I'm reading here is that his will save is beatable, which just happens to be Palp's specialty. (Well, aside from the lightning thing.) And I didn't even need the EU for that one.

Da'Shain
2011-11-29, 01:48 AM
why has no one bothered to say anything about my analysis? Was it good? Completely wrong? Anything? :smallfrown:I did. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12288002&postcount=74)

Avilan the Grey
2011-11-29, 01:59 AM
Okay then. So he had the power to do so, most likely, because Saruman's power was already waning and Gandalf was able to out-will him, essentially.

I don't think this even was a contest of will, really, as much as Gandalf acting as the will of their supperiors, who in essence "fired" Saruman at that point.


This is just getting ridiculous. Yes. Palpatine died by being thrown a few miles down into an open reactor. Due to being taken completely by surprise. This does not mean that the other stuff he has clearly demonstrated on screen is somehow invalid.

What else has he demonstrated, really? He can throw lightning, and he can throw stuff. He almost defeated Yoda in battle (NOT with lightsabers, mind you). As pointed out above he was held by Vader for several seconds, at least 5 and did not react, did not counter attack or manage to struggle free. He is, quite frankly, not very intimidating in the movies.


Energy Projection: Gandalf appears to have some sort of lightning bolt spell, which he used to kill a few goblins in the Hobbit and then may or may not have used against the Balrog (books vs. movies again). He also has some unspecified fire powers, with which he was able to create a shield against the Balrog's sword of flame, set pinecones on fire, and smite a bridge hard enough to make it crumble under the Balrog.

Gandalf's powers are undefined, yes, but in the books his main element is fire.
He defends himself against 6 of the 9 on weathertop, and the battle can only be seen from afar and looks like a mix of explosions and fireworks. When the wargs attack the party he sets the whole area on fire with his mind, trees suddenly in full blaze, including enhancing legolas' arrows so they burn.



Surviving a Fall: I shouldn't even be discussing this, as the chances of it coming up in a fight are virtually nil.[/QUOTE]

We should discuss it because it shows that Gandalf is a few hundred times physically tougher than Palpatine.

Forum Explorer
2011-11-29, 05:41 AM
I did. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12288002&postcount=74)

oops now I feel embarrassed. :smallredface:





I can see saying that Gandalf could shield himself from Force lightning, if we say that the shield he uses against the Balrog will do the same. I'd argue that it couldn't protect him very long, though, as
A) Lightning isn't fire, and Gandalf's shield appears to have been strong specifically because he has an affinity for fire, and
B) The shield was broken by a single swing of the Balrog's sword, even if it did break the sword as well. Palpatine's Lightning cannot be broken, and he can keep it up for a much longer time.

But why do you say he would be able to protect himself from being tossed around by Force push and the like? He's never demonstrated such an ability; in fact, if we do include the movies, he demonstrated a distinct lack of such an ability in his fight with Saruman. You rightly say that he has no apparent defense against being smacked in the face with a rock the size of a car.

I will grant that Gandalf's sword may indeed stand up to a lightsaber (why his staff, though?). But Gandalf is a better melee fighter? Where do you possibly get THAT idea from? Gandalf is certainly a competent fighter, don't get me wrong, but Palpatine took on four master swordsmen at a time and still only barely "lost". Palpatine's got Force-enhanced strength, speed and agility, and most definitely has Force-given precognition (all Jedi do in combat) as well as the ability to see much further into the future than that. Gandalf fights like a normal, if skilled, human; Palpatine has the standard Jedi abilities so that even if he didn't have the same or better level of skill, the deck would still be stacked against Gandalf.

I would argue that the force lightning is much weaker then the Balrog's sword and that the shield would last much longer as a result.

I argue that he would be protected against force push because it seems that force push can actually be countered with another force push (Obi-wan and Anakin's fight) which is what Gandalf's staff essentially does in his fight against Saruman. I said more skilled fighter because I imagine that over his long life Gandalf has gotten in more fights against a wider variety of foes. I also think that Gandalf is stronger because of his fight with the Balrog.

I would argue that Palpatine's fight against the master jedi went so well for him due to his ability to cloud the force for his opponents denying them their own force precog as well as being a sneak attack nevermind that just rewatching the clip now. Those other jedi just suck. and with a lightsaber you can cut through people pretty fast. In one amounted to a one on one fight against Mace Windu he did lose the lightsaber part of the duel.

So I think it comes down to this in a physical fight: Gandalf has skill and strength but Palpatine has the advantage due to raw speed, his force precog, and a better weapon.

Killer Angel
2011-11-29, 06:26 AM
Wait weaker then the Witch-King? No. Seriously that breaking staff thing I heard mention, from the movies only.


It's this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7egAVqmH4Q).
It's in the movie, but it's not in the books so... should we consider it true or not? Given that we're picking Gandalf's performances also from the films, I would say that it counts.

Devonix
2011-11-29, 06:37 AM
Ok Not chiming in just yet but can someone explain to me why the Clone Wars series isn't considered EU?

I had thought that Clone Wars was just as much Expanded Universe as the Books.

Devonix
2011-11-29, 06:43 AM
Ok Not chiming in just yet but can someone explain to me why the Clone Wars series isn't considered EU?

I had thought that Clone Wars was just as much Expanded Universe as the Books.

The Glyphstone
2011-11-29, 06:46 AM
Look up the Star Wars Canon Pyramid. It's....complicated.

Devonix
2011-11-29, 06:55 AM
Oh I have but that is just Lucas' deffinition of where things fall. I think its silly to use Lucas as the end all be all of what counts in Starwars.

My childhood started with the movies and then Star Wars was one of the First books series I ever started reading . Been doing so for 20 years now. to me those 20 years of following one continuing story flowing directly from the films makes me count those books as K Canon... K is the first letter in my name.

Or hell most star Wars discussions as long as they don't explicitly mention the movies start for me with the books.


And aren't the Cartoons just putting stuff from the EU into animated form and getting Lucas' stamp of opproval. As well as changing stuff from the original movies just as much as the Prequel Trillogy ignored much of the Canon of the OT?

Selrahc
2011-11-29, 06:59 AM
Generally speaking, indeed this is why I think you don't see LOTR pop up that often for versus.


You've just not been around long enough. LoTR used to be *the* setting of choice for versus threads in this forum. Real ones that were actually posted include:Sauron vs. Voldemort, Sauron vs. the Lich King, Aragorn vs. D'Artagnan, Napoleon vs. Middle Earth, Link & Sephiroth vs. Sauron & Master Chief etc.etc.etc.

Kind of the same way 40k had a spurt of dozens of vs. threads a little while ago.

Psyren
2011-11-29, 08:14 AM
We should discuss it because it shows that Gandalf is a few hundred times physically tougher than Palpatine.

Or had Feather Fall prepped. Not that we had a camera down there or anything.

The Glyphstone
2011-11-29, 08:24 AM
Oh I have but that is just Lucas' deffinition of where things fall. I think its silly to use Lucas as the end all be all of what counts in Starwars.


Not at all - it's LucasFILM's definition of canon, which is the be-all and end-all, because it's the condition they put on allowing a Star Wars product to be written at all. Everything with a Lucasfilm stamp, except for Infinities comics and RPG game statistics, is canon unless it's directly contradicted by a higher canon.

George Lucas's definition of canon is different - he explicitly considers everything except for the movies and their novelizations to be an 'alternate universe'. So technically, even he doesn't follow his own company's canon rules - thus you don't have to either.

Tiki Snakes
2011-11-29, 10:42 AM
All this talk of what gandalf could and could not block, parry, repel is all well and good but what does he do when Palpatine tears a chunk of masonry the size of a pickup truck off the scenary and throws it at him?
Even as Gandalf the White, he still moves like an old man.

As far as the Emperor's ignominious death, well. He can, according to the prequels, do all manner of acrobatic nonsense if required. He cannot fly, though. So once he's picked up, there's not really much he can do. Likewise, once he's falling, he's got to obey gravity like the rest of us. And it's not like he just fell a few hundred feet onto the ground, either. He gets dropped into the shiny, active Reactor Shaft. Which then explodes a little.

Which does at least serve to highlight how terrible Imperial Health and Safety is, if nothing else.

dehro
2011-11-29, 11:12 AM
Such speculation is useless. If the Force doesn't exist, then yes, Palpatine is simply an old man. Conversely, if magic and Maiar and the like don't exist, Gandalf is simply an old man. We're not trying to find out how
magic and the Force interact, we're comparing two characters and whether, with the power we know they have, one could defeat the other. Saying Palpatine's lightsaber doesn't work is ridiculous. I can as easily say that Gandalf's magic is simply the Force, since in the SW universe that's what all magic ultimately is, and Palpatine is perfectly capable of smacking down Force-users.
which is why I suggested the OP should spend a line or two to set the rules of the scenario... also..we are in middle-earth, by OP.. so..of the two, it's safe to assume that magic does work, as it's what holds together middle earth to begin with...whilst the force is debatable and would depend on what the OP, in my opinion, should state about the issue..
also, no.. if you remove the force, palpatine can still be an old man.. if you remove magic gandalf ceases to exist altogether, because his inner core is basically "made of magic"..he's a wizard pretty much by definition, much more than he is a human.... further details give him as one of the maia..and as such, defined by his characteristics and his powers much more than by his physical embodiement.
so..no, I don't think it's entirely useless to define just how the two "power systems" coexist...to further the debate on who would win.

on a different note...since much of palpatine's powers are based on willpower, and the same can be said of gandalf...I have another challenge within the challenge to submit to the board

giving each of them a palantir and giving palpatine sufficient knowledge on what they are and how they work...
who do you think would win in a contest of pure willpower, and "grab the other's secrets/subjugate the other"? I get a feeling they'd be locked in eternal battle

dehro
2011-11-29, 11:13 AM
I think its silly to use Lucas as the end all be all of what counts in Starwars.

:smalleek::smalleek::smallconfused::smallconfused: :smallfrown:
does. not. compute.

Psyren
2011-11-29, 11:39 AM
:smalleek::smalleek::smallconfused::smallconfused: :smallfrown:
does. not. compute.

He kind of ruined it :smalltongue::smallwink:

Emmerask
2011-11-29, 11:50 AM
which is why I suggested the OP should spend a line or two to set the rules of the scenario... also..we are in middle-earth, by OP.. so..of the two, it's safe to assume that magic does work, as it's what holds together middle earth to begin with...

"The Force is what gives a Jedi Sith his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together."

To be able to crash land in middle earth, the planet has to be in the same universe which leads to the only conclusion:
magic == the force


:smalleek::smalleek::smallconfused::smallconfused: :smallfrown:
does. not. compute.

Stackpoles books are actually better then anything lucas has made :smalltongue:

Weezer
2011-11-29, 11:56 AM
He kind of ruined it :smalltongue::smallwink:
It doesn't help that he privledges his own swill over well written works like Zahn's Thrawn trilogy.

hamishspence
2011-11-29, 12:09 PM
Everything with a Lucasfilm stamp, except for Infinities comics and RPG game statistics, is canon unless it's directly contradicted by a higher canon.

And even Infinities comics can end up being made canon later:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Resurrection

Psyren
2011-11-29, 12:30 PM
"The Force is what gives a Jedi Sith his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together."

To be able to crash land in middle earth, the planet has to be in the same universe which leads to the only conclusion:
magic == the force

Not necessarily; Eru existed before any living things did, right? So any power that comes from him can't be the Force, because there were no midichlorians living things around to make it.

So it's possible that Palps and Gandalf would be drawing on separate power sources.

Karoht
2011-11-29, 02:27 PM
Gandalf: Force Shmorce, I got me a Dwarf.
Gimli: Braaaaaaaaaaaaghaghghgh!

(slight parody of a similar non-canon remark by Han Solo regarding his thoughts of Force users and Wookies)
Han Solo: Force Shmorce, I got me a Wookie.
Chewie: Raaaaaaaaaaghaghghgh!

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-29, 02:41 PM
To be able to crash land in middle earth, the planet has to be in the same universe which leads to the only conclusion:
magic == the force

Clearly a hyperspace accident resulted in a shifting of universes which ordinarily would result in ending up in empty space but since Arda is entirely a planet and atmosphere they came out of in unexpected conditions and crashed.

Traab
2011-11-29, 02:41 PM
Gandalf: Force Shmorce, I got me a Dwarf.
Gimli: Braaaaaaaaaaaaghaghghgh!

(slight parody of a similar non-canon remark by Han Solo regarding his thoughts of Force users and Wookies)
Han Solo: Force Shmorce, I got me a Wookie.
Chewie: Raaaaaaaaaaghaghghgh!

Palpatine: "Good god, its like looking at yoda 800 years younger!"

Liffguard
2011-11-30, 02:30 AM
So it's possible that Palps and Gandalf would be drawing on separate power sources.

It bears repeating. Gandalf doesn't draw on a power source at all. He is his power source. Magic in Middle Earth is an internal force, not an external one. Gandalf's spells are fueled by nothing but his own strength of will.

lord_khaine
2011-11-30, 06:06 AM
All this talk of what gandalf could and could not block, parry, repel is all well and good but what does he do when Palpatine tears a chunk of masonry the size of a pickup truck off the scenary and throws it at him?
Even as Gandalf the White, he still moves like an old man.


Well, he does have 2 options, either a) hit him with a lethal dose of lightning or b) blind him using his flash ability, so that the masonry piece hits something else.

As for other places where we see Gandalf use his power, what about when he first came back as the white?
As i recall he did burn up Legolas's arrows in the air, and blind/immobilise both Aragorn and Gimli.

Avilan the Grey
2011-11-30, 08:54 AM
Well, he does have 2 options, either a) hit him with a lethal dose of lightning or b) blind him using his flash ability, so that the masonry piece hits something else.

As for other places where we see Gandalf use his power, what about when he first came back as the white?
As i recall he did burn up Legolas's arrows in the air, and blind/immobilise both Aragorn and Gimli.

That was in the movies, but yes.
And we might as well turn the question around; what would Palpatine do against a fireball?

Urist
2011-11-30, 09:15 AM
Palpatine vs. Fireball: absorb it(as done to blaster bolts by Vader, his apprentice), move out of the way(Force Speed), use environment to protect himself(telekinesis), deflect it(telekinesis again). Palpatine has options to defend himself.

Psyren
2011-11-30, 09:31 AM
That was in the movies, but yes.
And we might as well turn the question around; what would Palpatine do against a fireball?

At the very least he could grab a tree and interpose it. Or even use Gandalf himself, wouldn't that be funny. We don't need a line from EU to know that his TK is crazy-good.

Personally I would grab Shadowfax, just to see the look on Gandy's face.

lord_khaine
2011-11-30, 11:43 AM
That was in the movies, but yes.
And we might as well turn the question around; what would Palpatine do against a fireball?

Well, it were also in the books.
I dont know if fire is relevant, but he is able to use lightning.


Palpatine vs. Fireball: absorb it(as done to blaster bolts by Vader, his apprentice), move out of the way(Force Speed), use environment to protect himself(telekinesis), deflect it(telekinesis again). Palpatine has options to defend himself.
Today 08:54 AM

Absorb is a possibility, though we do know there is a limit to how much energy you can aborb that way, but if the fireball is big enough, then his speed wont be enough, and as for deflecting it, then generaly telekinesis can only manipulate physical objects, to control hostile fire he would need Pyrokinesis.


At the very least he could grab a tree and interpose it. Or even use Gandalf himself, wouldn't that be funny. We don't need a line from EU to know that his TK is crazy-good.

Just a shame its nowhere near fast enough to do that, no matter how strong it is, though of course thats also why i mentioned lightning in my post. where we can be sure he has no way of getting into cover.

Tiki Snakes
2011-11-30, 11:48 AM
Well, it were also in the books.
I dont know if fire is relevant, but he is able to use lightning.



Absorb is a possibility, though we do know there is a limit to how much energy you can aborb that way, but if the fireball is big enough, then his speed wont be enough, and as for deflecting it, then generaly telekinesis can only manipulate physical objects, to control hostile fire he would need Pyrokinesis.



Just a shame its nowhere near fast enough to do that, no matter how strong it is, though of course thats also why i mentioned lightning in my post. where we can be sure he has no way of getting into cover.


Arguably, a jet/orb of fire may get around any kind of possible force-push, but it's not like it's relevant, given that the only way we've ever seen gandalf do any such vulgar magic, he needed to use pinecones as the core. And pinecones can easily be force-pushed, if it's even relevant.

Forum Explorer
2011-11-30, 12:01 PM
Arguably, a jet/orb of fire may get around any kind of possible force-push, but it's not like it's relevant, given that the only way we've ever seen gandalf do any such vulgar magic, he needed to use pinecones as the core. And pinecones can easily be force-pushed, if it's even relevant.

Gandalf used some sort of lightning spell to kill goblins in the Misty Mountains.

Karoht
2011-11-30, 12:10 PM
Palpatine and Sauron both had problems defending Thermal Exaust ports.
Sauron's was the side of a mountain/volcano.
Palpatine's was the side of the Death Star.

"Pappa pepper Palpatine. Vader, how's my favorite Sith? Whoa whoa whoa, slow down, slow down. Wait what? They blew up the Death Star?
Who's they?
What the hell's an Aluminum Falcon?"
*remainder of communication censored*

Palpatine was also thrown over the edge of some railing in the Death Star. His TK can't lift himself, it can't be that good.

Avilan the Grey
2011-11-30, 01:01 PM
Palpatine vs. Fireball: absorb it(as done to blaster bolts by Vader, his apprentice), move out of the way(Force Speed), use environment to protect himself(telekinesis), deflect it(telekinesis again). Palpatine has options to defend himself.

First of all he couldn't absorb them when Mace Windu reflected his own back to him. Second Vader didn't absorb them, he let them hit him, and they killed him.



Arguably, a jet/orb of fire may get around any kind of possible force-push, but it's not like it's relevant, given that the only way we've ever seen gandalf do any such vulgar magic, he needed to use pinecones as the core. And pinecones can easily be force-pushed, if it's even relevant.

He didn't. Not when defending against the wolves or the six.

Forum Explorer
2011-11-30, 01:13 PM
First of all he couldn't absorb them when Mace Windu reflected his own back to him. Second Vader didn't absorb them, he let them hit him, and they killed him.




He didn't. Not when defending against the wolves or the six.

Vader got shot with a blaster by Han. I believe official word is that Vader used the force to absorb the blaster shot. I always preferred the explanation that Vader just had really good armor.

Traab
2011-11-30, 01:21 PM
Vader got shot with a blaster by Han. I believe official word is that Vader used the force to absorb the blaster shot. I always preferred the explanation that Vader just had really good armor.

Hmm, I could have sworn in the movies he used his hand to deflect the blaster shots, not absorb them. So either he used the force, or his armor is somehow blaster proof. In which case I have to wonder why the stormtroopers are stuck wearing cheap plastic that is defeated by 2 foot tall teddy bears with sticks.

Forum Explorer
2011-11-30, 01:26 PM
Hmm, I could have sworn in the movies he used his hand to deflect the blaster shots, not absorb them. So either he used the force, or his armor is somehow blaster proof. In which case I have to wonder why the stormtroopers are stuck wearing cheap plastic that is defeated by 2 foot tall teddy bears with sticks.

Because the Stormtroopers are all posers while Vader is the Boss. :smalltongue:


Or more realistically the material the stormtroopers use is needed for tens of thousands of troops while the material Vader uses is for one person.

Avilan the Grey
2011-11-30, 01:26 PM
Vader got shot with a blaster by Han. I believe official word is that Vader used the force to absorb the blaster shot. I always preferred the explanation that Vader just had really good armor.

He didn't absorb it. He used his ROBOT BODY to deflect the shot (more specific he used his hand, as Traab points out).

The Glyphstone
2011-11-30, 01:35 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEJbk7zrxs0&feature=related

The sparks and flash imply the blaster bolt impacted his hand, so it wasn't absorbed (barring a WoG retcon).

Weezer
2011-11-30, 01:39 PM
He didn't absorb it. He used his ROBOT BODY to deflect the shot (more specific he used his hand, as Traab points out).

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEJbk7zrxs0&feature=related)is the relevant clip. It looks very much like he blocks the shot with his hand, the explosion from the blaster hitting him is extremely similar to what it looks like when blasters hit anything, indicating to me that the shot actually impacted him, rather than being absorbed.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

Forum Explorer
2011-11-30, 01:41 PM
Good. The Force absorbing blaster shots was pretty silly to begin with.


So Palpatine cannot absorb Gandalf's fire or lightning spells

Avilan the Grey
2011-11-30, 01:43 PM
This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEJbk7zrxs0&feature=related)is the relevant clip. It looks very much like he blocks the shot with his hand, the explosion from the blaster hitting him is extremely similar to what it looks like when blasters hit anything, indicating to me that the shot actually impacted him, rather than being absorbed.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

Exactly. Not sure why you quote me, since you agree with me?

hamishspence
2011-11-30, 01:44 PM
The source that suggested Vader drew enough of the energy in to ensure he (or his robot hand?) was not damaged, and used that energy to yank the gun out of Han's grip, was the novel I, Jedi.

It was Luke explaining it to Corran after Corran used an energy-absorbing power.

Traab
2011-11-30, 01:46 PM
You know, its that scene that shows why the greedo shooting first retcon was stupid. Han doesnt hesitate, he sees vader, BOOM BOOM BOOM! No hesitation, just an "Oh ^%$" expression as he is drawing his gun and let the shots fly. A "hero" type good guy likely would have drawn his weapon and initiated a mexican standoff situation.

Weezer
2011-11-30, 01:56 PM
Exactly. Not sure why you quote me, since you agree with me?

I tend to quote whoever I'm replying to, whether I agree or disagree. It just makes it clear exactly what I'm responding to, I've seen people misunderstand who is talking to who enough that quoting posts has just become habitual.


The source that suggested Vader drew enough of the energy in to ensure he (or his robot hand?) was not damaged, and used that energy to yank the gun out of Han's grip, was the novel I, Jedi.

It was Luke explaining it to Corran after Corran used an energy-absorbing power.

So Luke is saying that Vader was using a Force power when there is no way that he could have actually known whether or not Vader used one. Luke wasn't there so he couldn't have observed it and those who were present didn't know enough about the Force to identify whether it was used or not. I call BS.

Urist
2011-11-30, 02:33 PM
Whoops, I've made myself a mistake. There was a time when the official word was supposed to be that he absorbed the blaster bolt, but new technobabble has been invented to explain why it looked like he deflected it(unique microionized iron. Yup...). Force absorb is a thing, but it turns out that Vader didn't know it.

However, the other points certainly do stand. Palpatine could interpose another object in between himself and the fireball, influence the fireball itself telekinetically, absorb lightning with his lightsaber(as shown by Mace Windu), move out of the way with Force Speed, etc.



The source that suggested Vader drew enough of the energy in to ensure he (or his robot hand?) was not damaged, and used that energy to yank the gun out of Han's grip, was the novel I, Jedi.

It was Luke explaining it to Corran after Corran used an energy-absorbing power.

This. It's silly, but for a while it was the only idea that was given for explanation.

hamishspence
2011-11-30, 02:37 PM
So Luke is saying that Vader was using a Force power when there is no way that he could have actually known whether or not Vader used one. Luke wasn't there so he couldn't have observed it and those who were present didn't know enough about the Force to identify whether it was used or not. I call BS.

Maybe he's speaking with hindsight, after his tuition with Palpatine in which he learned much more about the Force (including the dark side)?

Still, the "better armour" explanation may make more sense in this context.

Psyren
2011-11-30, 03:14 PM
"Pappa pepper Palpatine. Vader, how's my favorite Sith? Whoa whoa whoa, slow down, slow down. Wait what? They blew up the Death Star?
Who's they?
What the hell's an Aluminum Falcon?"
*remainder of communication censored*

One of my favorite RC sketches :smallbiggrin:


He didn't absorb it. He used his ROBOT BODY to deflect the shot (more specific he used his hand, as Traab points out).

Wasn't just one of his hands robotic? He used both to block in the clip. (3 shots with the right, one shot with the left just before yanking the gun.)

hamishspence
2011-11-30, 04:04 PM
After the prequels, it was confirmed to be both.

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-30, 04:11 PM
Specifically one hand to Dooku and the other plus two legs to Obi-Wan.

Traab
2011-11-30, 04:12 PM
After the prequels, it was confirmed to be both.

I know he lost a hand in movie 2. I know he lost both legs and an arm at the end of movie 3. Did he lose his last real hand in that final attack? Or did palpy just decide since 75% of his limbs are fake, lets go for the full set?

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-30, 04:20 PM
While not exactly highlighted Anakin on fire is holding on with only his robotic hand. You do have to look closely but the other is just not there.

Traab
2011-11-30, 04:22 PM
While not exactly highlighted Anakin on fire is holding on with only his robotic hand. You do have to look closely but the other is just not there.

Ah thats right, for some odd reason its been awhile since I watched the prequels, (cant think why) but I remember that scene now. His robotic hand exposed, desperately trying to claw his way away from the lava that is burning him alive just from its proximity. Not doing very well at it either.

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-30, 04:28 PM
Ah thats right, for some odd reason its been awhile since I watched the prequels, (cant think why) but I remember that scene now. His robotic hand exposed, desperately trying to claw his way away from the lava that is burning him alive just from its proximity. Not doing very well at it either.

Hmm just from the scene the high ground line, the awkward failed bromance, and the sudden inversion of Convection Schmonvection perhaps? All good reasons to blot the movie from existence in my book.

Karoht
2011-11-30, 04:28 PM
Ah thats right, for some odd reason its been awhile since I watched the prequels, (cant think why)...

Gandalf VS Palpatine
Who's prequel are you/were you more interested in?
Ep 1-3 VS The Hobbit Part 1 and 2?

Evil Sci-Fi Space Sorcerer VS Good/Neutral Fantasy Wizard

hamishspence
2011-11-30, 04:42 PM
In the novelization of RotJ it seems to imply that Anakin was actually in lava after the battle with Obi-Wan- and The Science of Star Wars discusses this- mentioning how people have survived falling into molten metal.


Ben shook his head remorsefully. "I also thought he could be turned back to the good side. It couldn't be done. He is more machine than man- twisted and evil."

Luke sensed the underlying meaning of Kenobi's statement, he heard the words as a command. He shook his head back at the vision. "I can't kill my own father."

"You should not think of that machine as your father." It was the teacher speaking again. "When I saw what had become of him, I tried to dissuade him, to draw him back from the dark side. We fought ... your father fell into a molten pit. When your father clawed his way out of that fiery pool, the change had been burned into him forever- he was Darth Vader, without a trace of Anakin Skywalker. Irredeemably dark. Scarred. Kept alive only by machinery and his own black will ..."

Later Vader has a flashback to that moment:


Vader saw his son crying, and knew it must have been at the horror of the face the boy beheld.

It intensified, momentarily, Vader's own sense of anguish- to his crimes, now, he added guilt at the imagined repugnance of his appearence. But then this brought him to mind of the way he used to look- striking, and grand, with a wry tilt to his brow that hinted of invincibility and took in all of life with a wink. Yes, that was how he'd looked once.

And this memory brought a wave of other memories with it. Memories of brotherhood, and home. His dear wife. The freedom of deep space. Obi-Wan.

Obi-Wan, his friend ... and how that friendship had turned. Turned, he knew not how- but got injected nonetheless, with some uncaring virulance that festered until ... hold. These were memories he wanted none of, not now. Memories of molten lava, crawling up his back ... no.

This boy had pulled him from that pit- here, now, with this act This boy was good.

The boy was good, and the boy had come from him, so there must have been some good in him, too. He smiled up again at his son, and for the first time, loved him. And for the first time in many long years, loved himself again, as well.

Traab
2011-11-30, 04:48 PM
Gandalf VS Palpatine
Who's prequel are you/were you more interested in?
Ep 1-3 VS The Hobbit Part 1 and 2?

Evil Sci-Fi Space Sorcerer VS Good/Neutral Fantasy Wizard

Not even close. I WANT The Hobbit. I want it to come out so freaking bad! I was interested in the prequels, but GIVE ME MY PRECIOUS! /gollum /gollum!

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-30, 04:55 PM
In the novelization of RotJ it seems to imply that Anakin was actually in lava after the battle with Obi-Wan- and The Science of Star Wars discusses this- mentioning how people have survived falling into molten metal.


That's in the movies too, obviously Lucas retconned it making Kenobi lie again. Though hey "fell into a molten pit" sounds better then "I cut off his arm and legs and left him to BURN!!!"

hamishspence
2011-11-30, 04:56 PM
Actually, the movie, and even the special edition, says nothing about what happened to Anakin- that's book-only.

In the movie, after Luke's "I can't kill my own father" Ben jumps straight to "Then the Emperor has already won. You were our last hope."

Psyren
2011-11-30, 06:11 PM
Even if both arms are robotic, blasters seem to work just fine on entirely-robotic droids. Why assume the Force played no part?

And I doubt pinecone-fireballs can outpace a laser anyway.

Soras Teva Gee
2011-11-30, 06:37 PM
Even if both arms are robotic, blasters seem to work just fine on entirely-robotic droids. Why assume the Force played no part?

And I doubt pinecone-fireballs can outpace a laser anyway.

On the other hand we could reason Vader would not use run of the mill parts. Its roughly equally likely to me that he had armored hands as to use a force ability. If we don't know we don't know.

(Oh and negative points for confusing a blaster and a laser :smalltongue: )

Psyren
2011-11-30, 07:08 PM
(Oh and negative points for confusing a blaster and a laser :smalltongue: )

I'm not often in the position of defending Star Wars, so the finer details escape me from time to time :smalltongue: I dislike Lucas-wank and Tolkien-wank equally; I just happen to like Palpatine.

I especially like his portrayal in the prequels, where he was cunning to the point of appearing fatherly. His Sith name was extremely apt.

Xondoure
2011-12-01, 02:17 AM
Again can someone explain why if Palpatine was so skilled he didn't manage to counterattack being lifted by a one armed man and thrown down a shaft? Prequel emperor is powerful but it seems being emperor has a negative effect on one's force powers.

H Birchgrove
2011-12-01, 02:22 AM
I know he lost a hand in movie 2. I know he lost both legs and an arm at the end of movie 3. Did he lose his last real hand in that final attack? Or did palpy just decide since 75% of his limbs are fake, lets go for the full set?

Ha! So Palpatine survived Return of the Jedi, somehow came to Earth, and started Omni Consumer Products... :smallamused:

Mystic Muse
2011-12-01, 02:29 AM
Okay, one thing I thought I should bring up since people keep mentioning the pinecone fireballs.

First of all, that was Gandalf the Grey, not Gandalf the White. Now, assuming he becomes Gandalf the White, he should be capable of something much more effective. I've only seen the movies and read the Hobbit, so I'm just assuming people are telling the truth when they say he's particularly adept with Fire.

Gandalf the White is Saruman as he should have been. Considering a broken, defeated Saruman cast a Fireball at Gandalf that completely enveloped him and kept burning for some time in the movie, it seems only logical that Gandalf the White should be capable of the same thing, if not more.

Now, I don't know whether this really matters (And I don't recall if you're assuming Grey or White here) but if he's Gandalf the White, that's quite a bit more than Vader would be able to block with his hand, and I don't think you can telekinesis away something like that. Though, I'm probably wrong about not being able to telekinesis it away.

Tiki Snakes
2011-12-01, 02:44 AM
Okay, one thing I thought I should bring up since people keep mentioning the pinecone fireballs.

First of all, that was Gandalf the Grey, not Gandalf the White. Now, assuming he becomes Gandalf the White, he should be capable of something much more effective. I've only seen the movies and read the Hobbit, so I'm just assuming people are telling the truth when they say he's particularly adept with Fire.

Gandalf the White is Saruman as he should have been. Considering a broken, defeated Saruman cast a Fireball at Gandalf that completely enveloped him and kept burning for some time in the movie, it seems only logical that Gandalf the White should be capable of the same thing, if not more.

Now, I don't know whether this really matters (And I don't recall if you're assuming Grey or White here) but if he's Gandalf the White, that's quite a bit more than Vader would be able to block with his hand, and I don't think you can telekinesis away something like that. Though, I'm probably wrong about not being able to telekinesis it away.

Should be is not the same as actually is, and therein lies the problem with Gandalf in Vs. threads.

WalkingTarget
2011-12-01, 02:51 AM
I've only seen the movies and read the Hobbit, so I'm just assuming people are telling the truth when they say he's particularly adept with Fire.

He is. A lot of the stuff we actually see him do involves it (pinecone stuff in The Hobbit, fighting off wargs, lighting a campfire when up the side of Caradhras, and his supernaturally nifty fireworks in Fellowship.

This is pretty much due to his possession of Narya, one of the Three Rings (as far as I've been able to determine).

From Letter 301:

"[Fireworks] appear in the books (and would have done even if I disliked them) because they are part of the representation of Gandalf, bearer of the Ring of Fire, the Kindler: the most childlike aspect shown to the Hobbits being fireworks."

The Ring is implied to not only be figuratively related to fire (Cirdan's words when he gave it to Gandalf: "Take this ring, master, for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill."), but also literally when considering the letter.

In any event (whether inherent to his character or imparted by the Ring), Gandalf considered the fire he started on Caradhras to be something that could be singled out as his handiwork, specifically.

Mystic Muse
2011-12-01, 03:03 AM
Well, I think that's all that I had that was relevant, and I don't really have a stake in this versus thread, so off I go. Just thought it was worth mentioning.

Avilan the Grey
2011-12-01, 03:20 AM
On the other hand we could reason Vader would not use run of the mill parts. Its roughly equally likely to me that he had armored hands as to use a force ability. If we don't know we don't know.

(Oh and negative points for confusing a blaster and a laser :smalltongue: )

Yes, this. Blasters do not make holes in everything; there are metals that can handle a "pistol" or "rifle" shot. Vader is obviously not your average battle droid...



He is. A lot of the stuff we actually see him do involves it (pinecone stuff in The Hobbit,).

This is something I wanted to point out even more: The "pine cone" stuff is from the Hobbit, where he is weaker, in general. He is your average wizard there, not an Emissary from the gods, as he became (even as Gandalf the Grey) in the LOTR trilogy. In the fight against the Wargs in LOTR he DID NOT have to "resort to set pinecones on fire", he set a whole area of the forest ablaze with his mind, made Legolas' arrows catch fire after being fired, mid air, to cause extra damage to the wargs etc.

The Glyphstone
2011-12-01, 06:55 AM
Again can someone explain why if Palpatine was so skilled he didn't manage to counterattack being lifted by a one armed man and thrown down a shaft? Prequel emperor is powerful but it seems being emperor has a negative effect on one's force powers.

You mean besides how he was riddling Vader with Force Lightning right up until Vader let go and dropped him?

Psyren
2011-12-01, 08:41 AM
Again can someone explain why if Palpatine was so skilled he didn't manage to counterattack being lifted by a one armed man and thrown down a shaft? Prequel emperor is powerful but it seems being emperor has a negative effect on one's force powers.

It was more like he was tossed down by a one-armed robot that also had powers of its own (and no nerve endings left, no matter what audio Lucas chooses to splice into things.)

It's certainly possible he did suffer some badass decay from retiring fully into politics with the jedi mostly owned.


Anyway I do have to say this is one of the more interesting matchups I've seen on this board :smallsmile:

lord_khaine
2011-12-01, 08:45 AM
You mean besides how he was riddling Vader with Force Lightning right up until Vader let go and dropped him?


It didnt have much effect on him though.

Gandalf's lightning on the other hand, has a 100% fatality rate! :smalltongue:

Avilan the Grey
2011-12-01, 08:45 AM
It was more like he was tossed down by a one-armed robot that also had powers of its own (and no nerve endings left, no matter what audio Lucas chooses to splice into things.)

It's certainly possible he did suffer some badass decay from retiring fully into politics with the jedi mostly owned.


Anyway I do have to say this is one of the more interesting matchups I've seen on this board :smallsmile:


It didnt have much effect on him though.

Gandalf's lightning on the other hand, has a 100% fatality rate! :smalltongue:

(As for the Politics part, the Robot Chicken Star Wars Special part III comes to mind... I laugh my... off every time I see that).

Anyway, exactly. He actually did manage to KILL Darth Vader, it just took a long time. The point is that nothing he does IN THE MOVIES makes him unbeatable by Gandalf. He tries throwing things at you? Set him on fire. Literary.

Chen
2011-12-01, 08:52 AM
You mean besides how he was riddling Vader with Force Lightning right up until Vader let go and dropped him?

Which we will note actually killed Vader in the end too. Unless that hand Luke cut off was his real weakness...though that seems unlikely. Presumably if someone like Luke had tried to pick the emperor up the lightning would have made him drop him pretty much immediately.

Traab
2011-12-01, 08:59 AM
Yeah, wasnt vadar basically in agony all day every day anyways from his lava based injuries? It would explain why he was able to ignore the force lightning long enough to toss an 100 pound lump of ancient flesh down a mine shaft while being electrocuted. That being said, if I were palpy, I wouldnt spend my last seconds of plummeting shooting off more lightning, id force pull that traitorous piece of garbage down with me! See if I could pull a gandalf versus the balrog by riding vadar down into the pit. :p

Psyren
2011-12-01, 10:38 AM
I'd have spent my final moments taunting him about Padamame or Panda Bear or whatever her name was.

Tiki Snakes
2011-12-01, 11:07 AM
See, what does lighting arrows in mid-flight on fire have in common with pinecone grenades and burning a forest?

And how does it differ from, say, simply setting the Wargs themselves on fire? Or saving Legolas's arrows and simply blasting the wargs with his handy dandy instant-kill lightning bolt?

No sign of fireballs without material, basically. Perhaps he cannot break the laws of thermodynamics as much as bend them?

The simple point is, with blaster-dodging, lightning blocking Jedi/Sith techniques and precognition, Palpatine has more ways to dodge Gandalf's big attacks than Gandalf has of Dodging Palpatines. Simply put, given his lack of agility, there's really nothing Gandalf can do to stop himself being squished by whatever huge chunk of rubble Palpatine has lying around or can manufacture.

Weezer
2011-12-01, 11:49 AM
See, what does lighting arrows in mid-flight on fire have in common with pinecone grenades and burning a forest?

And how does it differ from, say, simply setting the Wargs themselves on fire? Or saving Legolas's arrows and simply blasting the wargs with his handy dandy instant-kill lightning bolt?

No sign of fireballs without material, basically. Perhaps he cannot break the laws of thermodynamics as much as bend them?

The simple point is, with blaster-dodging, lightning blocking Jedi/Sith techniques and precognition, Palpatine has more ways to dodge Gandalf's big attacks than Gandalf has of Dodging Palpatines. Simply put, given his lack of agility, there's really nothing Gandalf can do to stop himself being squished by whatever huge chunk of rubble Palpatine has lying around or can manufacture.

So he sets Palpatine's robe on fire, good luck doing anything when every part of your body is suddenly surrounded by supernatural flames.


Huh, I think I just found a place where stereotypical fantasy female bikini-armor would be bettern than actual armor... :smalltongue:

Chen
2011-12-01, 12:35 PM
So he sets Palpatine's robe on fire, good luck doing anything when every part of your body is suddenly surrounded by supernatural flames.


Huh, I think I just found a place where stereotypical fantasy female bikini-armor would be bettern than actual armor... :smalltongue:

I'm pretty sure he could just tear his robes off via the force if necessary. But really this can easily be switched with "what if Palpatine uses TK to break Gandalf's neck". Whoever acts first here, if there intent to kill is at a HUGE advantage. I'd imagine there are a number of things Palpatine can do that insta-kill Gandalf. There may be some things that Gandalf can do to insta-kill Palpatine, but we know the force can absorb energy of some sort. From just canon sources Yoda does it against force lightning in episode 2. From EU stuff there are numerous instances of "Force Absorb" that occur. Can he absorb a fireball? Maybe, maybe not. I'd imagine we could use the Yoda scene in ep 2 to justify absorbing a lightning bolt though. It just seems that Palpatine has more ways to kill Gandalf and more ways to survive any assault Gandalf sends his way.

DarthArminius
2011-12-01, 01:13 PM
See, what does lighting arrows in mid-flight on fire have in common with pinecone grenades and burning a forest?

And how does it differ from, say, simply setting the Wargs themselves on fire? Or saving Legolas's arrows and simply blasting the wargs with his handy dandy instant-kill lightning bolt?

No sign of fireballs without material, basically. Perhaps he cannot break the laws of thermodynamics as much as bend them?

The simple point is, with blaster-dodging, lightning blocking Jedi/Sith techniques and precognition, Palpatine has more ways to dodge Gandalf's big attacks than Gandalf has of Dodging Palpatines. Simply put, given his lack of agility, there's really nothing Gandalf can do to stop himself being squished by whatever huge chunk of rubble Palpatine has lying around or can manufacture.

That's what people seem to be saying, but when they mentioned Gandalf fighting the Nazgul, six of them, from a distance, it sounds like he could have just been shooting fireballs and lightning bolts rather than using pinecones, unless he was still Gandalf the Grey.

Karoht
2011-12-01, 01:28 PM
Seeing as we see both Sauroman and Gandalf flinging each other around with Telekinesis (somewhere around the strength of force pushes, movie version mind you) and it doesn't take much force to snap a neck, so saying that Palpatine can TK neck snap isn't as meaningful as Gandalf probably can as well. If this is an arms race of who hits first, that would take this conversation into potentially an odd direction.

Tiki Snakes
2011-12-01, 01:40 PM
Seeing as we see both Sauroman and Gandalf flinging each other around with Telekinesis (somewhere around the strength of force pushes, movie version mind you) and it doesn't take much force to snap a neck, so saying that Palpatine can TK neck snap isn't as meaningful as Gandalf probably can as well. If this is an arms race of who hits first, that would take this conversation into potentially an odd direction.

To head off the inevitable TK madness, I believe personally that simply from it's depiction in both LOTR and SW, that kind of Telekinesis does not have the fine manipulation AND force in the right mix to do that kind of thing, otherwise it would have been used.

Karoht
2011-12-01, 01:45 PM
To head off the inevitable TK madness, I believe personally that simply from it's depiction in both LOTR and SW, that kind of Telekinesis does not have the fine manipulation AND force in the right mix to do that kind of thing, otherwise it would have been used.

To head off the inevitable TK madness, I will agree.

Emmerask
2011-12-01, 01:56 PM
Seeing as we see both Sauroman and Gandalf flinging each other around with Telekinesis (somewhere around the strength of force pushes, movie version mind you) and it doesn't take much force to snap a neck, so saying that Palpatine can TK neck snap isn't as meaningful as Gandalf probably can as well. If this is an arms race of who hits first, that would take this conversation into potentially an odd direction.

Agreed about the neck snapping part, but I completely disagree with the power of telekinesis part,
Both Gandalf and Saruman have to put pretty much every ounce of strength behind each push to propel normal human weights while palpatine pretty much throws around a few thousand tons with just a gesture in the senate building...

Karoht
2011-12-01, 03:19 PM
Agreed about the neck snapping part, but I completely disagree with the power of telekinesis part,
Both Gandalf and Saruman have to put pretty much every ounce of strength behind each push to propel normal human weights while palpatine pretty much throws around a few thousand tons with just a gesture in the senate building...

And yet you only require a few pounds of pressure in pretty much any direction to snap a neck. Clearly they can both fling each other around, etc.

Again, by bringing a relatively equivilant power into play on the part of both parties, we are essentially turning it into a question of initiative.

However, to break the initiative stalemate, I postulate that Palpatine would likely begin some monologue, but would sneakily be positioning something heavy to fall on Gandalf. Possibly a piano, or an anvil marked 5T on it. Or in the case of Count Doku, a large pillar of some sort. In this regard, I think Palpatine would win the initiative, as it were.

Thoughts?

Soras Teva Gee
2011-12-01, 04:49 PM
Agreed about the neck snapping part, but I completely disagree with the power of telekinesis part,
Both Gandalf and Saruman have to put pretty much every ounce of strength behind each push to propel normal human weights while palpatine pretty much throws around a few thousand tons with just a gesture in the senate building...

As a proponent of the books I would just say that the movie merely interpreted telekinesis as a convenient visual metaphor for dueling wills. As the books only relate the battle indirectly from Gandalf's accounts.

hamishspence
2011-12-01, 05:06 PM
The books don't actually have a "battle"- Gandalf's conversation with Saruman ends with:


"I did not expect you to show wisdom, even in your own behalf, but I gave you the chance of aiding me willingly, and so saving yourself much trouble and pain. The third choice is to stay here, until the end."
"Until what end?"
"Until you reveal to me where the One may be found. I may find means to pesuade you. Or until it is found in our despite, and the Ruler has time to turn to lighter matters: to devise, say, a fitting punishment for Gandalf the Gray."
"That may not prove to be one of the lighter matters" said I. He laughed at me, for my words were empty, and he knew it.
They took me and they set me on the pinnacle of Orthanc, in the place where Saruman was accustomed to watch the stars. There is no descent save by a narrow stair of many thousand steps, and the valley below seems far away.

It could be hypothesised that Gandalf fought, before "They took me"- but there's nothing to confirm it.

Interestingly, Unfinished Tales shows the events immediately before Gandalf's escape- and it's not a fight, but the Ringwraiths arriving to ask Saruman where the Shire is- Saruman deciding to beg Gandalf for help- and arriving at the top to find him gone and spotting the eagle in the distance. Whereupon, angry and afraid, he tells the Wraiths he's made Gandalf confess- and points them in the direction of the Shire.

(there's another version of the tale- but it's mentioned that the Tale of Years in the LoTR appendix seems to follow the one I've mentioned.)

Psyren
2011-12-01, 06:29 PM
I'd love to see those orcs trying to "take" Palpatine :smallamused:

Emmerask
2011-12-01, 06:44 PM
Yeah, they would be slaughtered ^^

dehro
2011-12-02, 07:52 AM
I'm pretty sure he could just tear his robes off via the force if necessary.

I don't think I want to live in a universe where Palpatine is liable to explode out of his clothes via tactical use of the force.

it also doesn't help that palpatina means "little grope" in italian..(of the kind that some molesters "give" to unsuspecting women and children on packed busses and subway wagons)

The emperor is creepy enough without these two elements soiling my mental picture of him


someone hand me industrial grade bleach and a spoon please.

H Birchgrove
2011-12-02, 10:17 AM
I'd have spent my final moments taunting him about Padamame or Panda Bear or whatever her name was.

:xykon: "Hey! Don't steal my schtick!"

:roy: ":smallfurious:"

Tiki Snakes
2011-12-02, 10:57 AM
I don't think I want to live in a universe where Palpatine is liable to explode out of his clothes via tactical use of the force.

it also doesn't help that palpatina means "little grope" in italian..(of the kind that some molesters "give" to unsuspecting women and children on packed busses and subway wagons)

The emperor is creepy enough without these two elements soiling my mental picture of him


someone hand me industrial grade bleach and a spoon please.


http://www.theforce.net/kids/coruscant/probe_droid/palpatine.jpg
He really is a bad, bad man.

Arakune
2011-12-02, 11:04 AM
I think we can pull a DC vs Marvel here, and go the same way Superman vs Thor went.

"My world goes up to eleven" for Palpatine, at least if you take in consideration the expanded material and the Old Republic era as a basis of what a true Sith Lord should be doing. Like eating a planet life force or being immortal until you are talked down to death or something.

Wardog
2011-12-06, 09:35 PM
Just in case no-one has said it yet, I think we can discount any "Palpatine calls in a fleet of Star Destroyers" scenarios.

Because if he tries something like that, then I'm pretty sure Eru would intervene, and this is supposed to be "Palpatine vs Gandalf", not "The Galactic Empire vs God".