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Ron Miel
2011-11-29, 10:00 PM
Haley is Ian's only living relative. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0131.html). However, he also has a sister Ivy.



Why is Haley surprised (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html)to hear of Miko's death. As far as Haley knows, Miko was in the prison, with Nale, when it blew up. And she assumed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0789.html)that Nale was dead. Why didn't she assume the same about Miko?



Why does Nale think that Elan is the leader of OOTS (panel 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0252.html)). He knows that Elan follows Roy. in fact that's the root of his hatred of Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0054.html).


Any others?

Reprimand
2011-11-29, 10:09 PM
Well put together but the last one with V following elan is a bit of a stretch. Doesn't necessarily mean Elan is the leader, he could just be a more senior member than V. I haven't read the origins book so I don't actually know. So feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-11-29, 10:23 PM
Haley is Ian's only living relative. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0131.html). However, he also has a sister Ivy.
Guess Miron never found out about Ivy. Same kind of research that let him think Haley had a shot at raising 200,000 gp before the next government change-over.

Gift Jeraff
2011-11-29, 10:24 PM
To be fair, at no point does anyone besides Elan claim that Nale is dead. In fact, if she assumed the Linear Guild was gone, her comments regarding recurring villains here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0713.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0765.html) would make little sense.
Well put together but the last one with V following elan is a bit of a stretch. Doesn't necessarily mean Elan is the leader, he could just be a more senior member than V. I haven't read the origins book so I don't actually know. So feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.Uh, V is not mentioned anywhere in the OP nor in those 2 strips. Never mind, I always think of that other strip whenever "Nale thinks Elan is the leader" is discussed.

But anyway, I'm guessing Nale just meant "his allies." Also, even if he knows Roy is the leader, I think his ego refuses to believe that someone genetically identical to him is a follower and not a leader.

Kish
2011-11-29, 10:30 PM
Nale thinks of Elan as the leader of the Order of the Stick because that serves his ego better than admitting that he's the evil twin of a mere follower. Compare Tarquin's immediate assumption that Elan is the leader of his group.

Like Crystal, Nale never lets what he knows get in the way of what he wants to believe.

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-11-29, 10:36 PM
To be fair, at no point does anyone besides Elan claim that Nale is dead. In fact, if she assumed the Linear Guild was gone, her comments regarding recurring villains here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0713.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0765.html) would make little sense.Uh, V is not mentioned anywhere in the OP nor in those 2 strips.
So who is Nale referring to when he talks about needing “a wizard or sorcerer
… to square off against the elf chick that follows [his] idiot brother Elan?” (emphasis mine)

FujinAkari
2011-11-29, 10:40 PM
Why is Haley surprised (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html)to hear of Miko's death. As far as Haley knows, Miko was in the prison, with Nale, when it blew up. And she assumed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0789.html)that Nale was dead. Why didn't she assume the same about Miko?[/URL].

Because Miko is a major recurring villain, and in fact had proven herself to be the second most dangerous opponent the OOTS had, and could even be argued to be the most dangerous (Xykon never beat the whole team by himself, nor was he interested in taking them out with the precision Miko was)

Haley is suspicious enough that it seems reasonable to assume she had been considering the possibility of Miko's return ever since Azure City, and the news that, no, she is actually really dead and the OOTS hadn't had to defeat her came as quite the shock.

To be fair, she also didn't seem "surprised" about Nale, she seemed to have suspicions for him as well, she just likely was expecting an actual ambush, rather than a "Hey here's Thog!" ambush :P

Pyron
2011-11-29, 10:41 PM
Here's a literal plot hole for ya:

The snarl's rift moving from the Azurite Palace (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0510.html) to Xykon's tower (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0658.html) with little explanation.

Gift Jeraff
2011-11-29, 10:41 PM
So who is Nale referring to when he talks about needing “a wizard or sorcerer
… to square off against the elf chick that follows [his] idiot brother Elan?” (emphasis mine)Oh, right. I was thinking of this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html).

Mutant Sheep
2011-11-29, 10:42 PM
The "didn't know about the rebel leader named Ivy" is totally a good explanation.:smallamused:

Since as far as Haley knew, both Nale and Miko were in the same pile of rubble. If she heard Miko died, she probably assumed Nale and Thog did too, since they were in the same exact prison tower.

And Nale is an egomaniac who wants to beat his brother. Beat his brother, because his brother beat him. Thinking that Elan is a follower of somebody insults Nale and then NALE THOG SMASH.

FujinAkari
2011-11-29, 10:43 PM
Here's a literal plot hole for ya:

The snarl's rift moving from the Azurite Palace (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0510.html) to Xykon's tower (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0658.html) with little explanation.

That would be because the camera rotated :P

Procyonpi
2011-11-29, 10:53 PM
Why is Haley surprised (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html)to hear of Miko's death. As far as Haley knows, Miko was in the prison, with Nale, when it blew up. And she assumed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0789.html)that Nale was dead. Why didn't she assume the same about Miko?


Well, considering that Haley DIDN'T assume Miko was dead until the Oracle told her, assuming the other prisoners died as well when she found out one died from the castle explosion was a reasonable (if perhaps not terribly safe) assumption.

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-11-29, 10:55 PM
The "didn't know about the rebel leader named Ivy" is totally a good explanation.:smallamused:
Did I miss something where Ivy was stated to be a sufficiently high profile rebel leader?

Even if Ivy herself is known, there can also be a mix-up in the records as to whether or not she is related to Ian. She’s a Bleedingham Starshine, and he’s a Greysky Starshine, after all.

Leecros
2011-11-29, 10:59 PM
Why is Haley surprised (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html)to hear of Miko's death. As far as Haley knows, Miko was in the prison, with Nale, when it blew up. And she assumed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0789.html)that Nale was dead. Why didn't she assume the same about Miko?

She didn't seem that surprised... Even if one assumes that someone's dead, it doesn't mean that there will be an utter lack of surprise when it's confirmed.

Ron Miel
2011-11-29, 11:07 PM
Since as far as Haley knew, both Nale and Miko were in the same pile of rubble. If she heard Miko died, she probably assumed Nale and Thog did too, since they were in the same exact prison tower.

No, because she doesn't remember her conversation with The Oracle.

Mutant Sheep
2011-11-30, 12:32 AM
No, because she doesn't remember her conversation with The Oracle.

Roy does. And told her off-panel. Duh.:smalltongue:

MesiDoomstalker
2011-11-30, 12:52 AM
Here's a literal plot hole for ya:

The snarl's rift moving from the Azurite Palace (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0510.html) to Xykon's tower (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0658.html) with little explanation.

That would be because the camera rotated :P

Not to mention the hole had been expanding rapidly since its destruction it could of been close to reaching Xykon's tower.

The Giant
2011-11-30, 01:34 AM
Miko defeated the entire OOTS while Nale could no longer even beat just Elan. It is entirely reasonable for one to be more surprised that an explosion killed Miko than that it killed Nale. And further, Haley never stated that she thought Nale was definitively dead, merely that the presence of Thog proved that he was definitively alive. Before that moment, he was Schrodinger's Brother. Elan was the one who assumed he was definitely dead.

Nale being told something is not the same thing as Nale hearing something, much less understanding or internalizing it. Not when it conflicts with his self-image.

The two images of the rift linked are several months apart, and the rift was still growing during that time.

And finally, something is not a "plot hole" if one can reasonably come up with a plausible explanation for it using just the information given in the work itself, even if I don't spell out that explanation in the text. Not every reaction that every character has is going to be explained in explicit detail. It's possible to draw your own conclusions based on what you know about them as people rather than assuming that the author made an error of some kind.

(And yes, I didn't answer the Ivy question intentionally. The story isn't over yet.)

Sunken Valley
2011-11-30, 03:38 AM
Oh, I've got another plot hole. Fyron's son. Did he just get retconned out of existance?

Tass
2011-11-30, 07:33 AM
The two images of the rift linked are several months apart, and the rift was still growing during that time.

So Redcloack was wrong when he estimated it would only grow another hundred feet?


And finally, something is not a "plot hole" if one can reasonably come up with a plausible explanation for it using just the information given in the work itself, even if I don't spell out that explanation in the text. Not every reaction that every character has is going to be explained in explicit detail. It's possible to draw your own conclusions based on what you know about them as people rather than assuming that the author made an error of some kind.

And that is exactly what people were doing in this thread.



(And yes, I didn't answer the Ivy question intentionally. The story isn't over yet.)

Interesting... :smallamused:

Thank you. Looking forward to more oots.

Dr.Epic
2011-11-30, 08:44 AM
Haley is Ian's only living relative. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0131.html). However, he also has a sister Ivy.

Obviously, she's undead.:smallwink:


Why is Haley surprised (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html)to hear of Miko's death. As far as Haley knows, Miko was in the prison, with Nale, when it blew up. And she assumed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0789.html)that Nale was dead. Why didn't she assume the same about Miko?

Miko is higher level and defeated the entire Order (minus Durkon) all by herself once.


Why does Nale think that Elan is the leader of OOTS (panel 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0252.html)). He knows that Elan follows Roy. in fact that's the root of his hatred of Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0054.html).

You over thinking this. It was just some awkward speech.

Also, Master Fyron's son anyone?

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-11-30, 10:35 AM
Obviously, she's undead.:smallwink:
Or Deathless “Some sort of positive energy spirit, possibly homebrewed or cribbed off another campaign setting! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html)”

Or how about a Construct? :smalltongue:

Ron Miel
2011-11-30, 10:44 AM
And finally, something is not a "plot hole" if one can reasonably come up with a plausible explanation for it using just the information given in the work itself, even if I don't spell out that explanation in the text. Not every reaction that every character has is going to be explained in explicit detail. It's possible to draw your own conclusions based on what you know about them as people rather than assuming that the author made an error of some kind.

Dear Mr Giant,

I wish you to know that I am a great admirer of your work. I think it is the best comic on the internet. Please do not think of this thread as being a negative review of your work.

When an author spends several years on a series his ideas sometimes change, develop and improve. Years after starting he might get a new idea that he didn't think of at the start. Sometimes the new ideas may contradict the old ones. This is not a mistake, but the author's privilege to change his mind.

It is sometimes interesting to observe how an author's ideas have changed and evolved over time. Pointing out that there is a contradiction between two strips several years apart does not equal a criticism of your work. Please don't think you have to defend against them, or try to find a convincing explanation for them. All you have to do is say "I changed my mind" and that is good enough.

ThePhantasm
2011-11-30, 10:46 AM
It is sometimes interesting to observe how an author's ideas have changed and evolved over time. Pointing out that there is a contradiction between two strips several years apart does not equal a criticism of your work. Please don't think you have to defend against them, or try to find a convincing explanation for them. All you have to do is say "I changed my mind" and that is good enough.

Are you suggesting that Rich is trying to avoid admitting a plot hole or something? These aren't real plot holes, as numerous explanations (including Rich's) have attested in the thread. He doesn't have to admit a change of mind if the change of mind didn't happen.

Surely Rich knows that an author's mind might change over the course of writing a work. He's been at this awhile. I'm not sure why you felt a long in depth explanation of all this was necessary?


So Redcloack was wrong when he estimated it would only grow another hundred feet?

When Redcloak said that the rift had already grown to be massive (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0547.html). There is only so much you can show in a strip panel.

Ron Miel
2011-11-30, 10:56 AM
Miko is higher level and defeated the entire Order (minus Durkon) all by herself once.

But that was before she fell. After the fall, she was a lot weaker, and could be defeated by Roy alone. It is reasonable to think she would be killed in an explosion.

Gift Jeraff
2011-11-30, 11:05 AM
But in Haley's mind, she's still the tough chick who beat up 5/6 of the Order twice. Even if she knew that Roy single-handedly laid the smackdown on her, she didn't witness it herself and thus still had the biased view that Miko is like a roach.

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-11-30, 11:06 AM
But that was before she fell. After the fall, she was a lot weaker, and could be defeated by Roy alone. It is reasonable to think she would be killed in an explosion.
Hit points are not affected by falling as a paladin. Saving throw bonuses are only affected by the loss of the Divine Grace class ability. On the whole, Miko’s ability to survive a large explosion was barely scratched.

Onyavar
2011-11-30, 11:29 AM
The two images of the rift linked are several months apart, and the rift was still growing during that time.


really? Because the rift information linked are:
Rift on top of castle ruin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0510.html), and this is rather close in time with Redcloaks information of the rift not growing much anymore (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html) and the rift maybe slightly larger, still on top of castle ruin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html). Or was there really several months between 545 and 658, and Redcloak was utterly wrong? Or were there several months between 510 and 545?
In 658, the tendrils of the rift are much closer to Xykons tower than you would expect (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0658.html) from previous comics.

This is imho just minor nitpicking though. We don't see the rift itself in 658, only the tendrils. It falls under artistic license: The tower and the rift are much farther away from each other, but if the real distance were shown, it wouldn't be possible to draw V and O in the tower, and the distance would be much more wasted space, and so on.

Procyonpi
2011-11-30, 11:29 AM
Indeed, the one plot hole I'm not really convinced there's a solution to was Fyron's son, but that was early in the comic.

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-11-30, 11:33 AM
This is imho just minor nitpicking though. We don't see the rift itself in 658, only the tendrils. It falls under artistic license: The tower and the rift are much farther away from each other, but if the real distance were shown, it wouldn't be possible to draw V and O in the tower, and the distance would be much more wasted space, and so on.
Stick Figure Telephoto Compression, maybe? :smalltongue:

Tass
2011-11-30, 11:35 AM
When Redcloak said that the rift had already grown to be massive (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0547.html). There is only so much you can show in a strip panel.

It does not look so massive. Certainly not enough that it should look so big seen from the tower as it does later.

In any case that scene is possibly the very next day from the first look we get when roy scrys, certainly within a week. It had three and a half month of fast growth to reach what we see at first. It should not be much bigger in the O-chul-on-the-roof scene.

There is, however, a lot of time between this and the darth-V arch. If Redcloak was wrong in his projection and it has been growing in a slowed, but steady pace since, then it can make sense.

Gift Jeraff
2011-11-30, 11:36 AM
really? Because the rift information linked are:
Rift on top of castle ruin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0510.html), and this is rather close in time with Redcloaks information of the rift not growing much anymore (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html) and the rift maybe slightly larger, still on top of castle ruin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html). Or was there really several months between 545 and 658, and Redcloak was utterly wrong? Or were there several months between 510 and 545?
In 658, the tendrils of the rift are much closer to Xykons tower than you would expect (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0658.html) from previous comics.Assuming #545 took place right after Haley left Azure City, then there are indeed 6 months between #545 and #658.

The Giant
2011-11-30, 05:12 PM
Please don't think you have to defend against them, or try to find a convincing explanation for them. All you have to do is say "I changed my mind" and that is good enough.

Except that I didn't change my mind on any of the things being pointed out here. They exist as I intended them to exist. You're just seeing a contradiction where there is none.

Conversely, you're defending your assertion that they are errors against people providing logical explanations:


But that was before she fell. After the fall, she was a lot weaker, and could be defeated by Roy alone. It is reasonable to think she would be killed in an explosion.

Sure, it would have been reasonable to think that, but Haley didn't think that. She thought the opposite, which is also reasonable. A character thinking one reasonable thing instead of another reasonable thing is not a plot hole or a contradiction or a mistake. It just is.

Why argue against plausible explanations, unless your goal is to assert that they really are errors?


So Redcloack was wrong when he estimated it would only grow another hundred feet?

The rift he was measuring was the literal hole—the dark-magenta-and-white part—not the lighter "cracks" surrounding it, which have spread out much further. If the hole grew 100 feet in six months, then the cracks grew another few hundred beyond that, putting them close to the tower.

Onyavar
2011-11-30, 05:23 PM
Assuming #545 took place right after Haley left Azure City, then there are indeed 6 months between #545 and #658.

Roy was dead for nine and a half month?

Haley and Celia needed six months to travel from AC to the oracle and to Greysky?

They stayed at Pete's for a bit more than a week. I reckon they travelled for a week between each of the places, so make this one month, two months top. The timeline guardians in those threads over there will know more.

And "six months" still doesn't explain the extreme growth of the rift between 544 and 658 - only if Redcloaks prediction in 545 was totally inaccurate. Artistic license, the necessity of fitting things into those panels, are things I would believe, and that's not much of a "plothole". However, "several months have passed" is not a valid argument to me.

Edit: Ninja'd by The Giant.


The rift he was measuring was the literal hole—the dark-magenta-and-white part—not the lighter "cracks" surrounding it, which have spread out much further. If the hole grew 100 feet in six months, then the cracks grew another few hundred beyond that, putting them close to the tower.

That's also reasonable. Still, "huh" because of the six months. :smallconfused:

Dr.Epic
2011-11-30, 05:27 PM
But that was before she fell. After the fall, she was a lot weaker, and could be defeated by Roy alone. It is reasonable to think she would be killed in an explosion.

Her HP and saves would be the same regardless and Roy had a +5 sword he'd taken feats for the second time.

Gift Jeraff
2011-11-30, 06:00 PM
Roy was dead for nine and a half month?Closer to 10 months actually. Redcloak implied that 10 and half months had passed since the Battle of Azure City in #702 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html).

And Haley & co. taking 6ish months to get to Greysky doesn't seem too implausible. The Sunken Valley is a few days away from Azure City (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0318.html), and according to the map at the back of WaXP, Hobgoblin City is around 3 times that distance--and Greysky City is even further up north. So it could be like a 3 month trip to Greysky, but at around 1 month is when Haley turned back to the Oracle (so let's say 2 weeks back). From the Oracle's tower to Greysky should have been something like 2 months and a half, but Belkar's curse severely slowed them down. (These are all just random numbers, but they add up and make sense to me.)

The biggest problem is that apparently Miko went to Dwarven Lands and back in like a week or two. But maybe she found wizards/sorcerers/clerics with the Travel domain willing to help. Maybe Shojo's personal Wizard Guy gave her a one-way teleport there.

The Pilgrim
2011-11-30, 07:11 PM
Haley is Ian's only living relative. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0131.html). However, he also has a sister Ivy.

That just means that Miron only knew about Haley, not about any other relatives of Ian.



Why is Haley surprised (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html)to hear of Miko's death. As far as Haley knows, Miko was in the prison, with Nale, when it blew up. And she assumed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0789.html)that Nale was dead. Why didn't she assume the same about Miko?

There is no proof that Haley assumed that Nale died in the exploding castle before the Oracle told her that Miko did.

Once she was informed that Miko was imprisoned in the castle, and died when it exploded, it's a safe assumption for her that Nale, who was also imprisoned there, died also.

Ron Miel
2011-11-30, 07:15 PM
Okay, Folks, I thought this would be a fun little thread. Unfortunately, it seems to have upset The Giant.

I think we should stop talking now.

ThePhantasm
2011-11-30, 08:31 PM
Okay, Folks, I thought this would be a fun little thread. Unfortunately, it seems to have upset The Giant.

I think we should stop talking now.

He doesn't sound upset to me, he is just disagreeing with you. When you make posts saying "come on Giant just admit they are mistakes" or "oops we seem to have upset the Giant" it kinda sounds patronizing. If you disagree with him respond to his arguments without undercutting them in this fashion.

As an artist and author he is allowed to defend his work.

Ron Miel
2011-11-30, 09:09 PM
I'd debate the point with anyone else, but I'm not going to go against Word Of Creator.

Kish
2011-11-30, 10:37 PM
There's a third option besides "argue with Rich about whether he's made mistakes" and "stop posting in the thread," y'know.

FujinAkari
2011-12-01, 12:50 AM
There's a third option besides "argue with Rich about whether he's made mistakes" and "stop posting in the thread," y'know.

Yeah, I think if Rich had intended that no one discuss the possibility of a plot hole anymore, there is something within his power to ensure no one posts to this thread... :P

He left it open, he just disagrees with the specific holes you brought forward and, I'll agree continuing to argue about those does seem a bit odd... other plotholes do and are confirmed to exist, like Durkon's age being wrong in the OOTS cardgame...

So sure, discuss them away :)

Sunken Valley
2011-12-01, 07:07 AM
You want a real plot hole. Fyron's son, mentioned by Roy in DCF, not mentioned in SoD (where we actually see Xykon killing Fyron) and then mentioned by Roy again in WaXP's. The Only plot hole in the comic (except for create undead and break enchantment don't work like that). Try answer that Rich!

Tass
2011-12-01, 08:34 AM
How do you know it is a plot hole? Maybe the son will play a role later in the story.

LightsOnNo1Home
2011-12-01, 08:34 AM
You want a real plot hole. Fyron's son, mentioned by Roy in DCF, not mentioned in SoD (where we actually see Xykon killing Fyron) and then mentioned by Roy again in WaXP's. The Only plot hole in the comic (except for create undead and break enchantment don't work like that). Try answer that Rich!

Fyron's son isn't a plot hole at this stage. If the comic ends without it being explained THEN it's a plot hole. In the mean time, it's a mystery. Which may yet be resolved.

EDIT: ninja'd :smallfrown:

Bulldog Psion
2011-12-01, 08:57 AM
Closer to 10 months actually. Redcloak implied that 10 and half months had passed since the Battle of Azure City in #702 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html).

And Haley & co. taking 6ish months to get to Greysky doesn't seem too implausible. The Sunken Valley is a few days away from Azure City (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0318.html), and according to the map at the back of WaXP, Hobgoblin City is around 3 times that distance--and Greysky City is even further up north. So it could be like a 3 month trip to Greysky, but at around 1 month is when Haley turned back to the Oracle (so let's say 2 weeks back). From the Oracle's tower to Greysky should have been something like 2 months and a half, but Belkar's curse severely slowed them down. (These are all just random numbers, but they add up and make sense to me.)

The biggest problem is that apparently Miko went to Dwarven Lands and back in like a week or two. But maybe she found wizards/sorcerers/clerics with the Travel domain willing to help. Maybe Shojo's personal Wizard Guy gave her a one-way teleport there.

Miko seems to have reached the area around the gate Elan blew up quite rapidly. However, since I don't have the book in question, and thus don't have the map, I can't say for certain.

Still, 6 months seems like a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong trip relative to others shown in the comic.

ThePhantasm
2011-12-01, 09:00 AM
You want a real plot hole. Fyron's son, mentioned by Roy in DCF, not mentioned in SoD (where we actually see Xykon killing Fyron) and then mentioned by Roy again in WaXP's. The Only plot hole in the comic (except for create undead and break enchantment don't work like that). Try answer that Rich!

I don't believe that is a plot hole. The fact that he is mentioned again after the publication of SoD means Rich hasn't forgotten about the existence of Fyron's son. So it means there is either misinformation in the story Roy received or the son was killed offscreen or something. I suspect we'll learn more as the comic progresses as I suspect Roy's relationship with his father still has some story material left to explore.

Jay R
2011-12-01, 09:05 AM
Haley is Ian's only living relative. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0131.html). However, he also has a sister Ivy.

That comic doesn't show that Haley is his only living relative. It doesn't even show that Miron believes she is. At most, it shows that Miron claims she is his only living relative.

He's not going to give away his double agent, so what would you expect him to write? "... should you, as his only living relative (other than his sister Ivy, who won't pay the ransom, since she is currently betraying him to us by helping us recapture him each time he escapes)..."

Edit:
Or maybe Ian’s not paranoid - he really shouldn’t trust anybody but family, but she’s not really his sister. She could have died and been replaced by a Bone Golem. Maybe she’s a half-Celestial. Or perhaps she drew her last breath shortly after visiting the Oracle. Do we really know if Ivy’s male or female? Is doom coming to Greysky City when she returns? Maybe she’s the daughter of Eugene and Elan’s mother, half-sister to both Roy and Elan, making them step-brothers. Hooray!

Or maybe, just maybe, we should just read the comic to the end before we decide there’s a plothole.

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-12-01, 12:21 PM
He left it open, he just disagrees with the specific holes you brought forward and, I'll agree continuing to argue about those does seem a bit odd... other plotholes do and are confirmed to exist, like Durkon's age being wrong in the OOTS cardgame...
That’s not a plot hole. It’s not even a plot element. That’s just an author brainfart in non-canonical material. And even then, it’s not a plot element, because at no point is Durkon’s age relevant to the plot.

Gift Jeraff
2011-12-01, 02:54 PM
You want a real plot hole. Fyron's son, mentioned by Roy in DCF, not mentioned in SoD (where we actually see Xykon killing Fyron) and then mentioned by Roy again in WaXP's. The Only plot hole in the comic (except for create undead and break enchantment don't work like that). Try answer that Rich!How are Create Undead and Break Enchantment working differently from the source material plot holes? They'd only be plot holes if they functioned inconsistently within the strip. For example, Break Enchantment is 1 standard action in one strip but then 1 minute in another strip which ends up dooming someone.

Unless you wanted to watch Tsukiko cast Create Undead for an hour.

Incom
2011-12-01, 03:07 PM
The comic has made reference to house rules before; any inconsistency between OOTS rules and standard DnD rules can be handwaved by house rules (sorry for the troper-speak).

FatJose
2011-12-01, 03:16 PM
The comic has made reference to house rules before; any inconsistency between OOTS rules and standard DnD rules can be handwaved by house rules (sorry for the troper-speak).

No need for apologies. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handwaving)

ThePhantasm
2011-12-01, 03:24 PM
The comic has made reference to house rules before; any inconsistency between OOTS rules and standard DnD rules can be handwaved by house rules (sorry for the troper-speak).

Not to mention this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11664910&postcount=11).

Dr.Epic
2011-12-01, 03:26 PM
From SoD (kind of):

How can the MitD talk? It's mentioned in SoD his species isn't know for this. So why can it talk? Is it awakened?

Zherog
2011-12-01, 03:31 PM
That's not a plot hole either. It's an unresolved plot point. there's a (big) difference.

ThePhantasm
2011-12-01, 03:33 PM
From SoD (kind of):

How can the MitD talk? It's mentioned in SoD his species isn't know for this. So why can it talk? Is it awakened?

That isn't a plot hole. That's a clue. That should be in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223804). And especially this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189676) (which it is in already).

Goosefeather
2011-12-01, 03:33 PM
From SoD (kind of):

How can the MitD talk? It's mentioned in SoD his species isn't know for this. So why can it talk? Is it awakened?

This is not a plot hole. This is part of an ongoing mystery yet to be solved. This is a plot point.

Edit: massively ninja'd! :smalltongue:

dancrilis
2011-12-01, 04:34 PM
The only nitpick I have ever had with the comic is as follows.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html
66 Years ago Soon encounter the first rift.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html
Years later Shojo was a child at his fathers feet.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0524.html
Shojo was an octogenarian.

Taking this at face this seems to be somewhat odd, assuming that Shojo was 80 then he would have been 14 when Soon encountered the first rift, assuming one year to find all the gates, research the spells and seal them (which is fine actually as adventurers accomplish all sorts of stuff in a year), and assuming that afterwards the years later refers to two years to establish the Sapphire Guard and appear before Shojo's father, that would put Shojo at 17, which seems to old for the story of a child at his fathers knee.

However I am happy to simply assume that Shojo was younger then he appeared to the order, perhaps in his sixties.

My assumptions have it play out like this.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html
If Shojo was 64 he would have sat on the throne since he was 17, Soon encountered the rift two years before Shojo was born, his adventures including founding the guard and getting old took ten years, making Shojo eight and learning from his father.

Soon aged a lot in those years (per the depiction in the comics) as he was under a lot of stress, and Shojo had similar reasons.

In my opinion everything else in the comic can be taken at face value, and this is to only element that caused me to have to concoct a rational for the timeframe.

As for Fyron's son?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html
Xykon killed five people named Fyron in cliffport, if is likely safe to assume that one of these was the son in question.

hamishspence
2011-12-01, 04:44 PM
Shojo's age has already been given in War & XPs as 72.

Blisstake
2011-12-01, 05:02 PM
So basically Shojo just looks older than he is? I don't think he actually told Belkar or Roy his exact age, so they estimated him to be about 80 something.

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-12-01, 05:06 PM
So basically Shojo just looks older than he is? I don't think he actually told Belkar or Roy his exact age, so they estimated him to be about 80 something.
Basically: Yeah.

dancrilis
2011-12-01, 05:52 PM
Shojo's age has already been given in War & XPs as 72.

Thank you for this I was unaware of that piece on information.

As such if we assume that Soon's adventures only took 3 years after the death of his wife, then Shojo would have been 9 when he was learning from his father which then tracks reasonable well.

hamishspence
2011-12-01, 06:03 PM
Redcloak's account in SoD has a goblin cleric discover the gate "about 35 years ago" - the Dark One sends a force led by the first Bearer of the Crimson Mantle- but it's thwarted by the Order of the Scribble.

He's telling this story 30 years before Dungeon Crawling Fools.

so- 65 years before. Fits in well with the Scribble's adventures beginning 66 years before.

CloakedDancer
2011-12-01, 06:29 PM
Going way back, something I always found odd was when Eugene asked Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html) if it would kill Roy to Speak With Undead once in a while to let his parents know how he was doing. It made it sound like Eugene and his wife had regular or even occasional contact in the afterlife, even though it seems to be made apparent later that they never talk, and Eugene's statement seems to be speaking for both of them. For all Eugene knows Roy could be talking to his mother and ignoring his father... after all, considering their relationship when he was alive that doesn't sound like it would be all that surprising.

Anyways I guess you could file that under nit-pick. But what does it matter, really? The story continues...

Tass
2011-12-02, 06:26 AM
Going way back, something I always found odd was when Eugene asked Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html) if it would kill Roy to Speak With Undead once in a while to let his parents know how he was doing. It made it sound like Eugene and his wife had regular or even occasional contact in the afterlife, even though it seems to be made apparent later that they never talk, and Eugene's statement seems to be speaking for both of them. For all Eugene knows Roy could be talking to his mother and ignoring his father... after all, considering their relationship when he was alive that doesn't sound like it would be all that surprising.

Anyways I guess you could file that under nit-pick. But what does it matter, really? The story continues...

And also "your mother wanted you to be a wizard".

Yeah, pretty obviously jokes from before the characterization was so complete as it is now. So yes, plot holes, but minor nitpicky ones that I won't lose any sleep over, and wouldn't even if I were the author. I suppose one could make up contrived reasons for his words to make sense, but I am not going to bother.

Bulldog Psion
2011-12-02, 06:45 AM
Going way back, something I always found odd was when Eugene asked Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html) if it would kill Roy to Speak With Undead once in a while to let his parents know how he was doing. It made it sound like Eugene and his wife had regular or even occasional contact in the afterlife, even though it seems to be made apparent later that they never talk, and Eugene's statement seems to be speaking for both of them. For all Eugene knows Roy could be talking to his mother and ignoring his father... after all, considering their relationship when he was alive that doesn't sound like it would be all that surprising.

Anyways I guess you could file that under nit-pick. But what does it matter, really? The story continues...

Well, although those statements by Eugene are just flat wrong in terms of the later story, it's also true that nothing before strip 100 is entirely canonical, or so I think I've heard. At that point it was mostly a joke a day strip, and the plot and characters didn't congeal into their final form until quite a bit later.

So, although it's a minor plot hole, it's also a completely irrelevant one. Not saying you're wrong to point it out, but it's a hole in area that's more or less separate from the main plot other than those elements which Rich decided to carry over.

(See, for example, the fact that the MitD was a lot more nasty and aggressive than he is now.)

CloakedDancer
2011-12-02, 09:26 PM
Well, although those statements by Eugene are just flat wrong in terms of the later story, it's also true that nothing before strip 100 is entirely canonical, or so I think I've heard. At that point it was mostly a joke a day strip, and the plot and characters didn't congeal into their final form until quite a bit later.

So, although it's a minor plot hole, it's also a completely irrelevant one. Not saying you're wrong to point it out, but it's a hole in area that's more or less separate from the main plot other than those elements which Rich decided to carry over.

(See, for example, the fact that the MitD was a lot more nasty and aggressive than he is now.)

Well Eugene ended up involved in the main plot, so I don't see how you can really call it separate. I know the history of the comic, and I understand that the early strips are before all the major plot points that came to define the strip became incorporated. I just felt like this thread had been devoid of anything that was an actual nit pick so far, so I decided to toss one in. As I said though, the story goes on and it's not a big deal. Just throwing something out there.

dancrilis
2011-12-03, 10:54 AM
I have never really had any issue with Eugene calling Roy on not speaking with dead, it seems likely to me that Sara would visit Eugene occasionally.
Bring Eric down talk about old times catch up with how the quest goes in a generic sense etc.
This fits then with Eugene being willing to grant Roy's request not to visit them, as Eugene knows they will visit him.

Further on Sara wanting Roy to be a wizard, she likely did, if for no other reason then it would make Eugene happy (and would save 40,000GP a year), she was likely just was not too pushed about it though.

Bulldog Psion
2011-12-03, 11:14 AM
Well Eugene ended up involved in the main plot, so I don't see how you can really call it separate. I know the history of the comic, and I understand that the early strips are before all the major plot points that came to define the strip became incorporated. I just felt like this thread had been devoid of anything that was an actual nit pick so far, so I decided to toss one in. As I said though, the story goes on and it's not a big deal. Just throwing something out there.

Well, if you're looking for nits to pick, the early strips are probably the place to do it. :smallwink: I might have a look around and see if I can spot any discrepancies just for fun.

CloakedDancer
2011-12-03, 03:42 PM
I have never really had any issue with Eugene calling Roy on not speaking with dead, it seems likely to me that Sara would visit Eugene occasionally.
Bring Eric down talk about old times catch up with how the quest goes in a generic sense etc.
This fits then with Eugene being willing to grant Roy's request not to visit them, as Eugene knows they will visit him.

Further on Sara wanting Roy to be a wizard, she likely did, if for no other reason then it would make Eugene happy (and would save 40,000GP a year), she was likely just was not too pushed about it though.

Out of curiosity, how do you know that Roy's parents would have saved 40,000GP a year if he had become a wizard? It never says that he would've skipped college if he'd gone the wizard route. In fact, wizarding sounds like it would require even more study than being a fighter. Maybe a sorcerer could skip school, but a wizard? I just don't see it. Now I will admit that I'm not familiar with the tuition rates of all those fancy wizard schools (like the one Julia goes to) but I'm fairly certain they're not free. You could be right though. Maybe Roy had a full-ride scholarship coming his way. But I'm pretty sure nothing in the comic says for certain what the monetary difference would be.

dancrilis
2011-12-03, 09:25 PM
True enough I will admit that this was an oversight on my part.

In theory I could say that I would assume that he was learning off his father (it is mentioned that he was learning cantrips before university), and that it seemed that it was a foregone conclusion that he would be accepted, but you are correct the monetary cost of this university (if any) was never specified.

As such I will retract the element of my previous post regarding: and would save 40,000GP a year.

I feel the rest still is a reasonable analysis however.

Mutant Sheep
2011-12-03, 09:44 PM
Well, if Elan could theoretically take a level of Wizard by theoretically looking over V's shoulder, Roy could go to a really crappy wizard school and get tutored by Eugene, saving about 39,365 gp a year.:smalltongue:

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-12-04, 08:53 AM
Well, if Elan could theoretically take a level of Wizard by theoretically looking over V's shoulder, Roy could go to a really crappy wizard school and get tutored by Eugene, saving about 39,365 gp a year.:smalltongue:
Elan can get the level by looking over V’s shoulder because Elan would be taking his xth Character Level, where x is a number greater than one and such study can be handwaved. You’ve got to put in actual hard work on your very first class.

Kish
2011-12-04, 10:59 AM
I doubt Eugene planned to cut corners on his son's wizard education.

Rather, he considers 40,000 gold a year to become a fighter wasted money, while the same amount (or a larger amount) to become a wizard would not have been wasted.

Jay R
2011-12-04, 12:06 PM
And also "your mother wanted you to be a wizard".

This is not a plot hole unless you assume that Eugene actually knew what Sara wanted and always reports other people's feelings accurately. I find no evidence for either assumption.

Lowkey Lyesmith
2011-12-04, 12:37 PM
This is not a plot hole unless you assume that Eugene actually knew what Sara wanted and always reports other people's feelings accurately. I find no evidence for either assumption.

I were thinking about that as well, it might just be that Eugene has it wrong.

Or Roy's mother wanted him to be a wizard since she thougt he had the brains for it, but later changed her mind when she realised that Roy liked being a fighter.

derfenrirwolv
2011-12-04, 03:16 PM
Or she thought her baby boy would be safer in the back of the adventuring party rather than in the monsters digestive tract...

Or better yet in town making oodles of magic items and tons of cash.

veti
2011-12-04, 05:30 PM
You’ve got to put in actual hard work on your very first class.

Or, alternatively, you could cruise through a few weeks of Bard Camp (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html).

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-12-04, 06:16 PM
Or, alternatively, you could cruise through a few weeks of Bard Camp (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html).
Which, compared to retroactively looking over the party bard’s shoulder, is hard work. :smalltongue:

Tass
2011-12-05, 08:05 AM
But not compared to actually obtaining a character level.

Lawless III
2011-12-05, 05:51 PM
It seems like both of Eugene's inaccurate statements can be attributed to his rather arrogant way of thinking. I find him assuming that if Roy hasn't talked to him, he hasn't talked to his mother either entirely inline with his character. The same with assuming that Roy's mother would want the same things he did for their children.

Another explanation for the former could be that Eugene was scrying on him regularly and never saw him use that spell to contact his mother.

It seems like a lot of these "plot holes" are simply cases of a character saying something untrue. Most of the time that's simply because the character does not have all the information nor the detachment from the situation that we enjoy as readers. They have time constraints, prejudices, misinformation, etc. So, they make assumptions and are quite often wrong about them. That's good character writing, not a "plot hole."

CloakedDancer
2011-12-05, 06:49 PM
It seems like both of Eugene's inaccurate statements can be attributed to his rather arrogant way of thinking. I find him assuming that if Roy hasn't talked to him, he hasn't talked to his mother either entirely inline with his character. The same with assuming that Roy's mother would want the same things he did for their children.

Another explanation for the former could be that Eugene was scrying on him regularly and never saw him use that spell to contact his mother.

It seems like a lot of these "plot holes" are simply cases of a character saying something untrue. Most of the time that's simply because the character does not have all the information nor the detachment from the situation that we enjoy as readers. They have time constraints, prejudices, misinformation, etc. So, they make assumptions and are quite often wrong about them. That's good character writing, not a "plot hole."

There are always explanations one can come up with to explain away various anomalies in a story. There are also differing levels at which readers' suspension of belief become strained. Sometimes scenarios that have reasonable explanations can really shatter a reader's suspension of disbelief, simply because it is not what the reader expects or believes to be reasonable.

I believe this comic does have good character writing. It has featured many cases of characters making statements and decisions based on what they believed to be true, and it turning out that what they believed to be true was not in fact truth or the best decision. The majority of cases for me have made sense. But good character writing doesn't preclude plot holes or mistakes. Not that I personally think there are any... I just had a little nit-pick. I can understand why others might think there are though. Even when they're wrong.

Lawless III
2011-12-05, 08:45 PM
There are always explanations one can come up with to explain away various anomalies in a story. There are also differing levels at which readers' suspension of belief become strained. Sometimes scenarios that have reasonable explanations can really shatter a reader's suspension of disbelief, simply because it is not what the reader expects or believes to be reasonable.

I believe this comic does have good character writing. It has featured many cases of characters making statements and decisions based on what they believed to be true, and it turning out that what they believed to be true was not in fact truth or the best decision. The majority of cases for me have made sense. But good character writing doesn't preclude plot holes or mistakes. Not that I personally think there are any... I just had a little nit-pick. I can understand why others might think there are though. Even when they're wrong.

It feels as though this is in disagreement with my post, but I can't really find anything stated directly that I don't agree with. I guess it seems like there is implication in the first paragraph that my explanations are some what of a stretch. If so then I would like to point out that Eugene's arrogance an constant scrying are very well documented. If however, I misinterpreted that (as the second paragraph rather sounds like) then feel free to disregard this.

I would also like to add that my comment about characters' misunderstanding being mistaken for plot holes was not aimed at your particular nitpick, but at a general trend I noticed. I don't even think yours is an example of it.

Flame of Anor
2011-12-06, 01:26 AM
My personal nit-pick is this: why does the Order believe that Girard will still be alive? He appears to be human, and his fellow party member (and human) Soon Kim, though probably older than Girard, was "aged" back when Shojo was a kid. That's sixty-some years ago, right? Considering it had been some time (long enough for Soon's hair to turn gray, the party to build gates, and Soon to found the Sapphire Guard and build a castle) since the breakup of the Order of the Scribble, Girard must be at least ninety.

The Wanderer
2011-12-06, 03:31 AM
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0524.html
Shojo was an octogenarian.

Others have already made their points, but I just wanted to say: why would you assume that Roy is right? He barely knows Shojo, so how would he know Shojo's exact age? Why would he even care about accurately guessing Shojo's age in the middle of a battle?

What characters say and think is not always right, because they're not always right. In fact, Roy being wrong because he either doesn't bother or care to learn the truth about something or because he makes logical guesses that are incorrect in part because the world is not logical is something of a running theme in the comic. (And in the case of the former, something he inherited from his dad. As is pointed out in SoD, Eugene will refuse to learn things just because he doesn't care enough about the subject to do so, and will even act like a complete moron who can't count because he continues not paying attention to said subject to the point that he won't even engage in 1st grade math.)

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-12-06, 08:43 AM
My personal nit-pick is this: why does the Order believe that Girard will still be alive? He appears to be human, and his fellow party member (and human) Soon Kim, though probably older than Girard, was "aged" back when Shojo was a kid. That's sixty-some years ago, right? Considering it had been some time (long enough for Soon's hair to turn gray, the party to build gates, and Soon to found the Sapphire Guard and build a castle) since the breakup of the Order of the Scribble, Girard must be at least ninety.
It was approximately 67-years ago (66 years, as of the trial in Azure City (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html), plus an additional year since then).

As to why could he be alive: Humans die of old age on average at 91 years old, but have a maximum life expectancy of 110 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#age). As a presumably epic character, Girard would have access to the feat Extended Lifespan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#extendedLifeSpan), which would add another 20 years to that. This is all on top of the general tendency for fictional spellcasters to just live longer. And in any case, Dorukan, one other human Scribble member other than Girard and Soon managed to hang on until Xykon killed him only two or so years prior, so there is precedent for longetivity among Scribble members.

Of course, the reveal about Orrin Draketooth (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html) does seem to have given them the idea that Girard is no longer personally guarding the gate. They may no longer expect to meet Girard.

Jay R
2011-12-06, 10:41 PM
My personal nit-pick is this: why does the Order believe that Girard will still be alive?

1. The order's ability to think through all details logically has not yet been demonstrated.

2. They will think he's alive until the plot requires them to think otherwise. This is a story.

3. When the bad guy dies off-screen, he's not really dead until you see the body.

veti
2011-12-06, 11:03 PM
My personal nit-pick is this: why does the Order believe that Girard will still be alive?

I look at it this way: the Order has no information, one way or the other, as to Girard's current vitalitory status. Nor do they know anything about what he might have done after the Scribblers broke up, apart from setting up practical jokes.

If I were in the Order's position, in the absence of any other information, I would assume: (a) there's a finite chance he's still alive, and (b) if he's dead, he's probably left something behind, and humans being what they are, that 'something' will probably share quite a lot of his characteristics. So when they talk as if Girard were still alive, that doesn't mean they're assuming that's the case - it's just a sensible starting point for such plans as they can make, in the absence of any up-to-date knowledge at all.

Flame of Anor
2011-12-06, 11:58 PM
3. When the bad guy dies off-screen, he's not really dead until you see the body.

...Girard is not the bad guy. :smallconfused:

Velarias
2011-12-07, 12:27 AM
I have lurked through this entire thread and i must say...

I have yet to see a single plot hole. More like people trying to pick something apart and notbeing able to so they just gnash their teeth.

Oh well...:smallcool:

CloakedDancer
2011-12-07, 10:08 PM
I have lurked through this entire thread and i must say...

I have yet to see a single plot hole. More like people trying to pick something apart and notbeing able to so they just gnash their teeth.

Oh well...:smallcool:

Question: So, if you can pick something apart that means it is not a plot hole?

Mutant Sheep
2011-12-07, 10:52 PM
Question: So, if you can pick something apart that means it is not a plot hole?

If you can't pick it apart, then it isn't, is what he's saying. :smalltongue:

Lvl45DM!
2011-12-07, 11:54 PM
No plot holes. But some contradictions and nit-picks. It reads more like a "Just Bugs Me" page at TV Tropes

CloakedDancer
2011-12-08, 10:36 AM
If you can't pick it apart, then it isn't, is what he's saying. :smalltongue:

I guess that means for some unfortunate folks nothing is a plot hole. Or conversely, everything is.

Bulldog Psion
2011-12-08, 11:50 AM
I have lurked through this entire thread and i must say...

I have yet to see a single plot hole. More like people trying to pick something apart and notbeing able to so they just gnash their teeth.

Oh well...:smallcool:

It seems to me that for the most part they're rationally and calmly discussing whether or not certain things are plot holes. I don't see much "picking apart" or "tooth gnashing", personally.

However, as with all things, your mileage may vary. :smallwink:

Forikroder
2011-12-08, 03:08 PM
But that was before she fell. After the fall, she was a lot weaker, and could be defeated by Roy alone. It is reasonable to think she would be killed in an explosion.

which is why she was able to beat down hinjo and almost take roy out before getting detained?

Sethala
2011-12-08, 04:15 PM
Didn't read through the whole thread, so forgive me if this was already asked...

When the OotS stumble upon Girard's message, they realize the best lead they have is to go out and find whoever Girard had bet against in the betting pool, as they just won a lot of money and are probably going out to spend it.

However, this is a pre-recorded message from decades ago. Sure, there was a betting pool at the time, but chances are it's not even running any more. Why did the OotS assume that someone would still be betting on if the message would be triggered, and base their search on that?

Admittedly, it turns out that this wasn't necessary at all, since how they got back on the main plot's track had nothing to do with the betting pool money, but still, it kind of bugs me. Anyone have a good explanation?

Kish
2011-12-08, 04:22 PM
The only way it would make sense to assume the betting pool no longer exists would be if the Order was assuming Girard was dead. Otherwise, the trap was still active and awaiting Soon, why would the bets on it no longer be active?

Bulldog Psion
2011-12-08, 04:30 PM
When the OotS stumble upon Girard's message, they realize the best lead they have is to go out and find whoever Girard had bet against in the betting pool, as they just won a lot of money and are probably going out to spend it.

However, this is a pre-recorded message from decades ago. Sure, there was a betting pool at the time, but chances are it's not even running any more. Why did the OotS assume that someone would still be betting on if the message would be triggered, and base their search on that?


That is a bit odd, now that you mention it. There was a direct clue in the message that Girard recorded it less than six weeks after the Gate was built. I sure the heck wouldn't be relying on someone calling in a sixty year old bet to provide me with a lead. That's like finding out someone made a bet at the end of World War II and trying to find them based on their depositing some money they won because something happened in 2011.

I wouldn't call it a plot hole at all, but it's pretty nonsensical.

TaRix
2011-12-08, 04:32 PM
Didn't read through the whole thread, so forgive me if this was already asked...

When the OotS stumble upon Girard's message, they realize the best lead they have is to go out and find whoever Girard had bet against in the betting pool, as they just won a lot of money and are probably going out to spend it.

However, this is a pre-recorded message from decades ago. Sure, there was a betting pool at the time, but chances are it's not even running any more. Why did the OotS assume that someone would still be betting on if the message would be triggered, and base their search on that?

Admittedly, it turns out that this wasn't necessary at all, since how they got back on the main plot's track had nothing to do with the betting pool money, but still, it kind of bugs me. Anyone have a good explanation?

The lead wasn't just "someone just struck it rich" but that "there's more than one person involved with this gate, which increases the likelihood for supply runs."

Not a great lead, but better than digging through random sandpiles. Even via montage.

Gift Jeraff
2011-12-08, 04:32 PM
A bad lead is better than no lead at all.

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-12-08, 04:46 PM
That is a bit odd, now that you mention it. There was a direct clue in the message that Girard recorded it less than six weeks after the Gate was built. I sure the heck wouldn't be relying on someone calling in a sixty year old bet to provide me with a lead. That's like finding out someone made a bet at the end of World War II and trying to find them based on their depositing some money they won because something happened in 2011.
If Girard and Serini were dwarves, elves, or gnomes, it wouldn’t be too bad a strategy. Those races have a sufficient lifespan for such a wager to be not too weird.

But then neither Girard nor Serini are a dwarf, elf, or gnome.

Bulldog Psion
2011-12-08, 05:02 PM
If Girard and Serini were dwarves, elves, or gnomes, it wouldn’t be too bad a strategy. Those races have a sufficient lifespan for such a wager to be not too weird.

But then neither Girard nor Serini are a dwarf, elf, or gnome.

Even assuming long lifespans, is someone going to sit in a desert for 60 years waiting to collect on a bet? Sure, Girard's likely hanging around, but I can't see the others sitting there endlessly waiting to collect on something. Anyway, how long was their bet for? "I bet that Soon comes and gets the gate after he's died of old age"? It would have to be a pretty odd bet for someone to win it and collect.

I just realized -- Girard lost his bet when 12 weeks went by without Soon showing up at his gate. So his (losing) wager was paid looooooooong ago, and the OotS had no logical lead at all.

What I mean is, Girard bet that Soon would violate the agreement within 12 weeks. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html That means he lost his wager 60-some-odd years and 40 weeks ago. Any money he lost was paid out on it then. So where is this money coming from that someone is going to have "burning a hole in their pocket" after half a century?

Furthermore, if they're placing massive bets on this scale, these people aren't going to go nuts with a spending spree getting a bit more gold. They've already got gold like you wouldn't believe, and in the intervening 6 decades, epic level characters, if they stay alive, are going to earn far more than a measly 12,000 gold or so. Sure, it's nice to get, but when you win a bet and get $20, it doesn't mean that you rush to the nearest town in a frenzy to spend this "colossal windfall", especially if you're already making $40 an hour.

Assuming that the desert city IS the nearest city to go to for those with access to epic level transportation. "Hm, I got this money, and there was that rare statue I always wanted to buy halfway around the world. I think I'll hire a wizard to teleport me there, and buy it."

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-12-08, 05:13 PM
Even assuming long lifespans, is someone going to sit in a desert for 60 years waiting to collect on a bet?
You don’t need to sit around waiting for the outcome to settle the bet. You just need to be alerted to the outcome. And it is more than likely that Girard’s trap sends an alert to both Serini and him when it is triggered.

Now the question as to whether or not the bet was actually settled, that depends how large the pool was. Most people do not refer to a bet between only two people as a “pool.” All it takes is one member to, say, bet on him returning between 65 and and 70 years. And, as you mentioned, the wager amount was pretty much chump change to an epic-level character. So they wouldn’t be in much of a hurry to collect.

Kish
2011-12-08, 05:14 PM
I just realized -- Girard lost his bet when 12 weeks went by without Soon showing up at his gate. So his (losing) wager was paid looooooooong ago, and the OotS had no logical lead at all.

What I mean is, Girard bet that Soon would violate the agreement within 12 weeks. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html That means he lost his wager 60-some-odd years and 40 weeks ago. Any money he lost was paid out on it then.
No, that's not how a betting pool works. If it was a single bet between Girard and one other person, yes, Girard lost. And he definitely dropped out of the running after twelve weeks. But no money was actually collected until someone won the bet. The bet may have ended at "everyone thought it would be less than 50 years, so no one wins" 50 years after the original bet was made, or it may have ended at "the person who bet '40 to 50 years' is the last to drop out, the person who bet '50 years to never' wins the pot," or it may--as the Order apparently assumed--have been down to "only the person who bet '60 to 100 years' and the person who bet 'never' are still in the race" until it was finally resolved by the trap being set off. But it didn't end at twelve weeks; Girard must have bet a shorter time than anyone else, since he said that anything under twelve weeks would mean he'd won the bet.

Sethala
2011-12-08, 05:22 PM
I just realized -- Girard lost his bet when 12 weeks went by without Soon showing up at his gate. So his (losing) wager was paid looooooooong ago, and the OotS had no logical lead at all.

What I mean is, Girard bet that Soon would violate the agreement within 12 weeks. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html That means he lost his wager 60-some-odd years and 40 weeks ago. Any money he lost was paid out on it then. So where is this money coming from that someone is going to have "burning a hole in their pocket" after half a century?

This, pretty much. If he's betting that Soon shows up within three months, the rest of the bets are probably going to fall in the same timespan, probably with either no one winning the money and it going back to whoever bet it, or someone bet that he won't come at all before a certain time frame, in which case he would have already won the money when the time was up.

Since it's been long enough for Soon to have died from old age, I'm pretty sure it's past time for the betting pool to be closed and the money given out to someone, even if the people betting on him had much longer life spans than a human.

Again, this is all pretty nitpicky, and ultimately doesn't matter to the storyline, since the path to finding the Gate didn't actually involve their guess about the betting pool being right (in fact, the OotS might not have even realized at the time that the money would have likely been given out decades ago, as the message is preserved and delivered as if it was made recently), only that they decided to go to a nearby large town and split up.

Kish
2011-12-08, 05:31 PM
This, pretty much. If he's betting that Soon shows up within three months, the rest of the bets are probably going to fall in the same timespan,
I think you're missing the point of him making the shortest bet--he bet an extremely short time because he was certain Soon would break his word, probably as soon as it occurred to Soon that he had anything to gain from breaking it.

And again, we know he made the shortest bet, because he said that he would win if it was anything from one second to twelve weeks. The other bets cannot have fallen in the same timespan. If you assume Girard's bet was rationally calculated and not goofily short, you could argue that they all fell within, say, the first year or so...but that's not an assumption I'd be interested in making with you.

Bulldog Psion
2011-12-08, 05:44 PM
I think you're missing the point of him making the shortest bet--he bet an extremely short time because he was certain Soon would break his word, probably as soon as it occurred to Soon that he had anything to gain from breaking it.

And again, we know he made the shortest bet, because he said that he would win if it was anything from one second to twelve weeks. The other bets cannot have fallen in the same timespan. If you assume Girard's bet was rationally calculated and not goofily short, you could argue that they all fell within, say, the first year or so...but that's not an assumption I'd be interested in making with you.

Yet there are many, many other problems with the bet idea, which are obvious enough so that the characters should have seen them as well.

Their premise is so contrived and stilted that it's jarring. It's not a plot hole, it's not a contradiction, but it does rub the wrong way a bit.

dancrilis
2011-12-08, 06:35 PM
I would be inclined to look at this from an alternate angle, part of the rational for looking for his allies in a city was due to the bet sure, but the other part was that he had allies to begin with.

These allies are likely to want to get out and about every now and again, and as such would likely want to get things from cities.

As such investigating cities for groups that seem to match what you would expect from his allies is not a bad plan in an of itself, particularly if these allies are following world affairs such as the events of Azure City, as seems likely given Girard's nature as paranoid.

And if the bet is on, that just makes it a bit easier.

CloakedDancer
2011-12-08, 06:45 PM
I think you're missing the point of him making the shortest bet--he bet an extremely short time because he was certain Soon would break his word, probably as soon as it occurred to Soon that he had anything to gain from breaking it.

And again, we know he made the shortest bet, because he said that he would win if it was anything from one second to twelve weeks. The other bets cannot have fallen in the same timespan. If you assume Girard's bet was rationally calculated and not goofily short, you could argue that they all fell within, say, the first year or so...but that's not an assumption I'd be interested in making with you.

Wait, wait, wait... we're not going to take bets about when the bets were taken? I mean discussing it just gets so tedious sometimes. :smallamused:

Nevereatcars
2011-12-09, 12:09 AM
Wait, wait, wait... we're not going to take bets about when the bets were taken? I mean discussing it just gets so tedious sometimes. :smallamused:

Ugh, now I'm even more confused! When did we start betting on the bet? I bet six internet cookies that Girard's second-born daughter won the bet, exactly thirty seconds before she would have had to drop out of the running.

Jay R
2011-12-09, 10:09 AM
When the OotS stumble upon Girard's message, they realize the best lead they have is to go out and find whoever Girard had bet against in the betting pool, as they just won a lot of money and are probably going out to spend it.

However, this is a pre-recorded message from decades ago. Sure, there was a betting pool at the time, but chances are it's not even running any more. Why did the OotS assume that someone would still be betting on if the message would be triggered, and base their search on that?

Admittedly, it turns out that this wasn't necessary at all, since how they got back on the main plot's track had nothing to do with the betting pool money, but still, it kind of bugs me. Anyone have a good explanation?

This isn't a plot hole. It is, however, proof that the Order of the Stick sometimes makes dumb decisions - which was never in doubt.

Fortunately, they have Elan to stumble over the plot.

Joerg
2011-12-09, 12:23 PM
No, that's not how a betting pool works. [...] no money was actually collected until someone won the bet. [...] it may--as the Order apparently assumed--have been down to "only the person who bet '60 to 100 years' and the person who bet 'never' are still in the race" until it was finally resolved by the trap being set off.

Well, nobody would bet 'never' if that's how the pool works. He'd never get the money, because he'd never win -- it could be that the trap is set off by the paladins after 500 years, for example.

It may still possible to bet "60 to 100 years", but it is very improbable, too, because why specify the "to 100"? That only makes sense if another one bet more than 100 years, and that one would only win after 100 years have passed, by which time he and most of the others will be dead.

Someone could bet "never until he (Soon) is dead", and that one would have won long ago. More likely is that everyone bet in a smaller time frame (say, 20 or 30 years) and nobody won.

But there remains the possibility that someone bet "more than 20 years" without specifying an upper limit (the implicit upper limit being "we are all dead"). In that case, he really would have won when the Order triggered the trap.

martianmister
2011-12-09, 02:27 PM
OotS' plan is mainly based on the assumption that that a group big as Girard's (which can make a betting pool) likely make at least occasional trips outside for supplies, etc. Bet's current state is not really important to the main plan.

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-12-09, 02:38 PM
Well, nobody would bet 'never' if that's how the pool works. He'd never get the money, because he'd never win -- it could be that the trap is set off by the paladins after 500 years, for example.
If the trap were set of by paladins after 500 years, they would not likely have been sent by Soon. A bet of “Never” is certainly possible if you expect to outlive the subject of your bet.

Bulldog Psion
2011-12-09, 02:54 PM
This isn't a plot hole. It is, however, proof that the Order of the Stick sometimes makes dumb decisions - which was never in doubt.

Fortunately, they have Elan to stumble over the plot.

This probably sums it up best. The OotS are basically as dumb as a box of rocks most of the time, so their weird bet theory is just another example of their convoluted, incorrect thought processes.

Sethala
2011-12-09, 03:07 PM
This probably sums it up best. The OotS are basically as dumb as a box of rocks most of the time, so their weird bet theory is just another example of their convoluted, incorrect thought processes.

Agreed, and I don't doubt that. Again, since the bet never actually mattered to the plot (at least this far, but I don't imagine it'll come up again), it doesn't matter.

I think what just bugs me is that it's treated like this big reveal, that they wouldn't have anything to go on if they didn't figure it out, and yet it's likely that they were completely wrong.

St Fan
2011-12-09, 03:11 PM
I wouldn't call the Order's decision "dumb" in this case; it was more like they were really, really desperate and ready to jump on any tiny hint, even if it had only a microscopic chance of being right.


OotS' plan is mainly based on the assumption that that a group big as Girard's (which can make a betting pool) likely make at least occasional trips outside for supplies, etc. Bet's current state is not really important to the main plan.

This sums it up exactly.

Warmage
2011-12-09, 03:12 PM
This isn't a plot hole. It is, however, proof that the Order of the Stick sometimes makes dumb decisions - which was never in doubt.

Fortunately, they have Elan to stumble over the plot.

It wasn't exactly a dumb decision either. As discussed here, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html) they only really know that they must go on supply trips regularly. They assume that someone in the pool won the bet and had some extra money to spend, increasing the chances that one of Draketooth's group would be in a town now. They planned to hit up all the big cities in the area and hope they got lucky (which they did). They even acknowledge that they may be completely wrong or even that the group just teleports to Cliffport or something.

In this case, they couldn't have continued searching the vast desert. They were really out of decent options and had to gamble on finding one of Draketooth's group on a supply run. The chance was actually quite small, but that's better than nothing.

Peelee
2011-12-09, 05:09 PM
I guess that means for some unfortunate folks nothing is a plot hole. Or conversely, everything is.

In the movie The Blues Brothers, the Jake and Elwood have to raise $5,000 to pay for the property tax assessment on the orphanage they grew up in. However, chuch-owned properties in Illinois are not taxed.

That is an example of a plot hole. A detail that completely invalidates any or all parts of the overall plot. Inconsistencies and other details listed here are NOT plot holes, as they do not cause any part of the plot to have no reason to exist. Being able to pick something apart doesn't make any given detail a plot hole any more than having four legs makes any given animal a tiger. Sure, it's possible it COULD be one, but that's a pretty shoddy criteria to judge 'em all by.

That said, I agree with Velarias. There are no actual plot holes in this thread, just nit-picks and arguable inconsistencies, for the most part.

Sethala
2011-12-10, 12:20 AM
It wasn't exactly a dumb decision either. As discussed here, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html) they only really know that they must go on supply trips regularly. They assume that someone in the pool won the bet and had some extra money to spend, increasing the chances that one of Draketooth's group would be in a town now. They planned to hit up all the big cities in the area and hope they got lucky (which they did). They even acknowledge that they may be completely wrong or even that the group just teleports to Cliffport or something.

In this case, they couldn't have continued searching the vast desert. They were really out of decent options and had to gamble on finding one of Draketooth's group on a supply run. The chance was actually quite small, but that's better than nothing.

You know, now that you mention it and point out the strip, I realize I was mis-remembering a lot of it. After reading it again, it's not relevant that someone just won the betting pool, just that there was one at some point, and that it implies there being multiple people, and that they have cash to spend. Perhaps not right now, since the bet was likely over after 60-some years, but someone winning the bet isn't the whole point, I guess.

dancrilis
2011-12-10, 08:53 AM
Another nitpick would be Tarquin wearing a ring of true seeing and not noticing that Zz'dtri is a drow.

Arguable as he may have a number of rings and switch in his pocket as he feels the need, but that requires him to be able to switch rings in his pocket easily, and for him to lose the most obvious benefit of always wearing the ring.
Also arguable as he may have known the whole time and faked not knowing.

Jay R
2011-12-10, 09:47 AM
Another nitpick would be Tarquin wearing a ring of true seeing and not noticing that Zz'dtri is a drow.

Arguable as he may have a number of rings and switch in his pocket as he feels the need, but that requires him to be able to switch rings in his pocket easily, and for him to lose the most obvious benefit of always wearing the ring.
Also arguable as he may have known the whole time and faked not knowing.

Particularly since we just saw that he has known for 80 or so strips about the OotS party make-up without revealing it. Rich would not reveal that Tarquin saw through Z's disguise for any reason except the Roger Rabbit Code: "only when it's funny".

dancrilis
2011-12-12, 02:30 PM
Well on the ring of true seeing and Zz'dtri, I guess that answers that.

Jay R
2011-12-13, 09:17 AM
Well on the ring of true seeing and Zz'dtri, I guess that answers that.

Yup. It also settles the general question of whether we can assume Tarquin doesn't notice something if he hasn't mentioned it or reacted to it.