Returning after two years away...do I need to change anything?

[Kiero]

It's looking highly likely that we'll return to our FR/Icewind Dale game (player thread (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?469102-4e-Just-played-had-fun) and GM thread (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?467170-4e-FR-Ice-Station-Zhentarim-GM-Help-Requested!)) at some point in the new year. Bear in mind it was over two years ago when we played last, before Essentials and a whole slew of changes. Also bear in mind that we don't own any of those things, and probably won't be buying them, either.

We are all 8th level. Our party has changed a little. Three characters are unchanged:

My two-weapon Ranger (the Striker)
The Windsoul genasi Orb-Wizard (the Controller)
The Stormsoul genasi Aegis-Swordmage (the Defender)


Our original Leader, a laser Cleric, is being retired in favour of a new Paladin (given he was back-row last time, I suspect this might be a more hands-on type). And we have a new player who's keen on playing a Cleric (no idea yet what sort). So we are now five with two Defenders.

My character is presently thus:

Blend, Level 8
Human, Ranger
Fighting Style: Two-Blade Fighting Style
Background: Occupation - Criminal (+2 to Stealth)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 14, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10.

AC: 22 Fort: 22 Reflex: 22 Will: 19
HP: 66 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 16

TRAINED SKILLS
Stealth +14, Nature +11, Endurance +11, Acrobatics +12, Athletics +13, Perception +13

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +4, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +6, Heal +6, History +4, Insight +6, Intimidate +4, Religion +4, Streetwise +4, Thievery +7

FEATS
Human: Action Surge
Level 1: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 2: Two-Weapon Defense
Level 4: Weapon Focus (Axe)
Level 6: Alertness
Level 8: Quick Draw

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Twin Strike
Ranger at-will 1: Nimble Strike
Ranger at-will 1: Hit and Run
Ranger encounter 1: Fox's Cunning
Ranger daily 1: Jaws of the Wolf
Ranger utility 2: Yield Ground
Ranger encounter 3: Cut and Run
Ranger daily 5: Frenzied Skirmish
Ranger utility 6: Weave Through the Fray
Ranger encounter 7: Sweeping Whirlwind

ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit, Backpack (empty), Arrows (30), Waterskin, Rations, Trail (10), Frost Battleaxe +2, Boots of Striding (heroic tier), Everlasting Provisions (heroic tier), Magic Battleaxe +2*, Magic Leather Armor +2*, Magic Longbow +2*, Amulet of Protection +2*

*Not actually magic items, but static bonuses attached to the character. Pretending they are magic items is the easiest way to get them into the CB.


He's the classic stalk around the fight and smash things skirmisher. I seem to do a lot of switching weapons, which is why I picked up Quick Draw at 8th level. It also comes with a handy boost to Initiative, which is always useful as the fragile one.

The only thing that immediately strikes me (no pun intended) is that I need to switch out Action Surge (which is frankly worthless, big bonus to a single roll once a game) for Weapon Expertise (which is a reasonable bonus to every single attack roll). Especially if we use the Expertise with neat bonuses (which for axes I believe is Brutal 1).

Has anything I've got been majorly errata'd in the last couple of years, or any new things appeared that I should really have?

Is there anything else I should be considering? Does the change in party makeup alter how I should be thinking?

[Epinephrine]

The only thing that immediately strikes me (no pun intended) is that I need to switch out Action Surge (which is frankly worthless, big bonus to a single roll once a game) for Weapon Expertise (which is a reasonable bonus to every single attack roll). Especially if we use the Expertise with neat bonuses (which for axes I believe is Brutal 1).

Instead of an Expertise and Quick Draw, I might suggest Master at Arms (HotFK, HotFL). It's basically expertise on all weapons, and the bonus is allowing you to sheathe and then draw a weapon as a minor action.

For a bigger revamp (I see the +2 stealth and reasonable dex, etc) you could roll him as a Scout (ranger); it's an essentials class, allowing the ranger to two-weapon fight using Dex for melee. Not superior to the original ranger, but if you want to have the light armour, dextrous ranger with two blades approach it might be worth looking at; it uses stances and has both martial and primal as power sources.

Also, they added inherent bonuses into the builder, so if you want inherent bonuses it's just a check box.

[Kiero]

Instead of an Expertise and Quick Draw, I might suggest Master at Arms (HotFK, HotFL). It's basically expertise on all weapons, and the bonus is allowing you to sheathe and then draw a weapon as a minor action.

Is that not really unbalanced? Sounds like supplement-creep, not sure my GM would be thrilled by it.


For a bigger revamp (I see the +2 stealth and reasonable dex, etc) you could roll him as a Scout (ranger); it's an essentials class, allowing the ranger to two-weapon fight using Dex for melee. Not superior to the original ranger, but if you want to have the light armour, dextrous ranger with two blades approach it might be worth looking at; it uses stances and has both martial and primal as power sources.

Hmmm, I like being Str-based, rather than yet another Dex-monkey as so many systems seem to channel you towards.

What would having two Power Sources mean? How fiddly are stances? I had one with my Tempest Fighter in our other 4e game, but otherwise haven't dealt with them much.


Also, they added inherent bonuses into the builder, so if you want inherent bonuses it's just a check box.

I've got an old version of the CB and aren't about to shell out for the latest. For some reason we didn't end up using this option, I'll have to find out why.

[Epinephrine]

Is that not really unbalanced? Sounds like supplement-creep, not sure my GM would be thrilled by it.

I don't think it's unbalanced - you give up a bonus (brutal-type effect on axes, bonus damage with combat advantage on light blades, etc.) for flexibility and a bonus on all your weapons. It allows players to do weapon swapping more easily and effectively, but doesn't actually increase the damage output.


Hmmm, I like being Str-based, rather than yet another Dex-monkey as so many systems seem to channel you towards.
Oh, nevermind, then.


What would having two Power Sources mean?
Opens up more paragon paths and feats, there are some that have requirements like "martial power source." Second Skin, for example, is a primal epic-level feat for Hide armour wearers.


How fiddly are stances? I had one with my Tempest Fighter in our other 4e game, but otherwise haven't dealt with them much.

Not that fiddly. In general they're just some ongoing effect, like having a damage bonus when some condition is met. I think the scout isn't a bad class, and it gets some effects that (to me) are missing from the original ranger, like bonuses on tracking, using plants to help heal, etc. Plus I like the option of using Dex for melee, since it feels silly to have dual wielded light blades and be relying on Str.

[Drglenn]

Humans can now take a pretty cool encounter power instead of a bonus at-will that gives +4 to a (otherwise) missed attack roll or failed skill check, might be something to think about.

Also Action Surge, Alertness, and Weapon Focus are kinda meh, and your stats are a bit too average for my liking, but that's up to you.

Another thing (that won't really affect you but may affect the others) is that when you multiclass (and/or hybrid) you get proficiency in the class's implements for ALL your powers (and vice-versa, so you don't have to cart around a holy symbol if you multiclass from arcane to divine for example).

One more thing is that a lot of races now have a floating stat bonus chosen at character creation (one static, the other is a choice out of 2). Genasi, for example, get INT and their choice of STR or CON (which makes them good at either of the main styles of Swordmage).

[Yakk]

Switching weapons isn't that strong, so Master at Arms making it easier isn't power creep (over the expertise feats themselves being power creep). Few high-op characters will want to swap weapons, as they will want to optimize their ability to attack with one kind of weapon.


Human: Action Surge
Level 1: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 2: Two-Weapon Defense
Level 4: Weapon Focus (Axe)
Level 6: Alertness
Level 8: Quick Draw
Action Surge is strong when you have a daily with a Hit effect that is important.

As a twin striker, +damage on a hit is somewhat important. Hence I'm less negative about Weapon Focus and TWF feats. Note that the TWF damage bonus now applies to the offhand.

Also as a twin striker, the only other Ranger at-will that is tempting is Throw and Stab. No other at-will can keep up -- however, in a low-magic game, not being able to get Iron Armbands of Power hurts you.

If you like the idea of being both a bow and a melee character, the dragon magazine feat that lets you swap a level 1 Ranger at-will attack for a (non-leveled) Hunter at-will attack power is tempting. In particular, one that lets you make basic attacks against everyone in a 3x3 area with a -2 penalty to hit rivals twin strike in many situations.

For an axe Ranger with 5 feats, who wants to be able to use your bow, I'd grab these:
Weapon Focus - Axe
Master at Arms
Weapon Proficiency (Waraxe) (1d12 [W] dice!)
Two Weapon Fighting
Battle Awareness

For stats, I'd go more like this:
Str 16+2+1+1, Con 12, Dex 16+1+1, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 10

Your twin strike becomes:
+14 vs AC 1d12+4 (x2) + 1d6 if either hit.
On an AC 22 target (average level 8 monster), neglecting crits, that's about 17 DPR -- a tad low for a level 8 striker, but almost acceptable.

Make sure all of your encounter powers are off-turn or minor action attacks. Disrupting strike, off-hand strike, etc. Battle Awareness gives you a bonus off-turn attack (how many fights will happen where one enemy doesn't shift while adjacent to you, or make an attack that doesn't include you? Remember, you don't place any effect on the enemy, so they have no clue by RAW that you can exploit those actions. It even works on someone your defender has marked!)

With 3 off-turn attacks (that are as strong as a basic attack at least) plus battle awareness, you will get 4 extra attacks over the first 4 rounds, each at least +14 vs AC / 1d12+9 damage. That boosts your 4 turn DPR up to 27, which is an acceptable value for a level 8 striker (average level 8 monsters have 88 HP, so you can kill one of them in ~3.25 rounds).

[Kiero]

I don't think it's unbalanced - you give up a bonus (brutal-type effect on axes, bonus damage with combat advantage on light blades, etc.) for flexibility and a bonus on all your weapons. It allows players to do weapon swapping more easily and effectively, but doesn't actually increase the damage output.

I see, that's fair enough.

Does sound like it suffers from a generalist problem, thus not as good as Axe Expertise (because no damage bonus) or Quick Draw (because it doesn't automatically make drawing two weapons quick) individually.


Opens up more paragon paths and feats, there are some that have requirements like "martial power source." Second Skin, for example, is a primal epic-level feat for Hide armour wearers.

To be honest, I'd be surprised if this game hits Paragon Tier. It's one of our occasional "break" games. We tend to play 6-8 sessions, then go back to our "main" game (which is currently DFRPG).


Not that fiddly. In general they're just some ongoing effect, like having a damage bonus when some condition is met. I think the scout isn't a bad class, and it gets some effects that (to me) are missing from the original ranger, like bonuses on tracking, using plants to help heal, etc. Plus I like the option of using Dex for melee, since it feels silly to have dual wielded light blades and be relying on Str.

Sounds like it's worth considering.


Humans can now take a pretty cool encounter power instead of a bonus at-will that gives +4 to a (otherwise) missed attack roll or failed skill check, might be something to think about.

I don't know, sounding like it's in Action Surge territory for far too occasional bonus. I mean on a nova strike Daily that might be useful, or on a powerful encounter power that missed.

Hmmm, better than Action Surge at least.


Also Action Surge, Alertness, and Weapon Focus are kinda meh, and your stats are a bit too average for my liking, but that's up to you.

Agree with you on Action Surge, that's going regardless.

Alertness has massive non-combat utility, especially as the group's guide/pathfinder. I don't tend to miss things.

Weapon Focus is reliable, I like that.

Stats aren't changing.


Another thing (that won't really affect you but may affect the others) is that when you multiclass (and/or hybrid) you get proficiency in the class's implements for ALL your powers (and vice-versa, so you don't have to cart around a holy symbol if you multiclass from arcane to divine for example).

Ironically, I think we've lost the only character who'd multiclassed (the Cleric had multiclassed with Warlord). Though either of the new ones might. Thanks for that.


One more thing is that a lot of races now have a floating stat bonus chosen at character creation (one static, the other is a choice out of 2). Genasi, for example, get INT and their choice of STR or CON (which makes them good at either of the main styles of Swordmage).

Race is categorically not changing, I only play humans.


Switching weapons isn't that strong, so Master at Arms making it easier isn't power creep (over the expertise feats themselves being power creep). Few high-op characters will want to swap weapons, as they will want to optimize their ability to attack with one kind of weapon.

It might not be strong, but it's useful. Especially since it costs me virtually nothing to also be able to Twin Strike at (quite a long) range.


Action Surge is strong when you have a daily with a Hit effect that is important.

My experience of Action Surge in play with our group is that it's worthless. A one-off bonus to hit is pretty much useless, given how swing-y 1d20 is. I invariably get two chances to hit anything, anyway.


As a twin striker, +damage on a hit is somewhat important. Hence I'm less negative about Weapon Focus and TWF feats. Note that the TWF damage bonus now applies to the offhand.

I think there was a bug in the old CB, it always applied the bonus to both.


Also as a twin striker, the only other Ranger at-will that is tempting is Throw and Stab. No other at-will can keep up -- however, in a low-magic game, not being able to get Iron Armbands of Power hurts you.

That's even more weapons, though. Can't throw a battleaxe as far as I'm aware, so that would mean handaxes for throwing. Which are also not as good as battleaxes in a fight, so I could be doing a lot of weapon switching if that were the case. I dunno, sounds fiddly.


If you like the idea of being both a bow and a melee character, the dragon magazine feat that lets you swap a level 1 Ranger at-will attack for a (non-leveled) Hunter at-will attack power is tempting. In particular, one that lets you make basic attacks against everyone in a 3x3 area with a -2 penalty to hit rivals twin strike in many situations.

To be honest, I like the idea of having a bow as ranged backup, yet not having to expend any build resource on it. It's incidentally useful, rather than me having to invest in being good with it.

Which is why Master at Arms is sort of nice, but is potentially a 6th Feat to add later since it benefits my primary weapon as well as anything else.


For an axe Ranger with 5 feats, who wants to be able to use your bow, I'd grab these:
Weapon Focus - Axe
Master at Arms
Weapon Proficiency (Waraxe) (1d12 [W] dice!)
Two Weapon Fighting
Battle Awareness

I don't really see great value in getting a step up in die value for the cost of a Feat. If there were another static +1 damage I could get, I'd choose that over a WP.

What does Battle Awareness do? Been ages since I looked at the CB.


For stats, I'd go more like this:
Str 16+2+1+1, Con 12, Dex 16+1+1, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 10

Stats aren't changing.


Your twin strike becomes:
+14 vs AC 1d12+4 (x2) + 1d6 if either hit.
On an AC 22 target (average level 8 monster), neglecting crits, that's about 17 DPR -- a tad low for a level 8 striker, but almost acceptable.

We're not a super-optimised group. I haven't had any trouble taking things down and fulfilling my role in the party.

To summarise my philosophy on 4E, I prize simple, reliable and transparent mechanical options over those which tend towards fiddly, conditional and based on special readings of the rules.


Make sure all of your encounter powers are off-turn or minor action attacks. Disrupting strike, off-hand strike, etc. Battle Awareness gives you a bonus off-turn attack (how many fights will happen where one enemy doesn't shift while adjacent to you, or make an attack that doesn't include you? Remember, you don't place any effect on the enemy, so they have no clue by RAW that you can exploit those actions. It even works on someone your defender has marked!)

With 3 off-turn attacks (that are as strong as a basic attack at least) plus battle awareness, you will get 4 extra attacks over the first 4 rounds, each at least +14 vs AC / 1d12+9 damage. That boosts your 4 turn DPR up to 27, which is an acceptable value for a level 8 striker (average level 8 monsters have 88 HP, so you can kill one of them in ~3.25 rounds).

Hmmm, some things to think about there.

[Drglenn]

I don't know, sounding like it's in Action Surge territory for far too occasional bonus. I mean on a nova strike Daily that might be useful, or on a powerful encounter power that missed.

Hmmm, better than Action Surge at least.
I would definitely say its better than an at-will for a Ranger, especially as when you're using at-wills you might as well twin strike


Race is categorically not changing, I only play humans.
That was more of a thing to tell/remind the other players, I used Genasi as the example because the other members of your party you have listed are Genasi

[Epinephrine]

To be honest, I'd be surprised if this game hits Paragon Tier. It's one of our occasional "break" games. We tend to play 6-8 sessions, then go back to our "main" game (which is currently DFRPG).

Well, if you aren't getting to high levels, and you're playing low-magic (so doubtful that you'll be getting an item bonus to damage), you may actually do very well with the scout. Instead of using Twin Strike, you make a melee basic attack (based on Dex, typically), and use Dual Weapon Attack, which is a free action attack you can use once per round when you hit with a melee basic attack. It is an off-hand attack that is Dex vs AC and deals 1W+Dex, so it would be quite effective.

At 8th level, you'd have 4 wilderness knacks (things like Ambush Expertise, Wilderness Tracker, etc. ) and 3 stances that give you specific fighting styles - Aspect of the Lurking Spider helps stealth and climbing, and gives bonus damage with combat advantage; Aspect of the Pack Wolf gives damage bonus based on the number of allies adjacent to a foe, and lets you leave a square without provoking OAs if it is adjacent to an ally, and so on. As a human you'd have to option of picking up a regular ranger at-will as well, so you could even grab Throw and Stab, which is a powerful combo with Dual Weapon Attack (since Throw and Stab grants a melee basic, and Dual Weapon Attack triggers on a melee basic, so you can get a ranged attack on an off target and a double attack on a melee target).

[Yakk]

Action Surge is ridiculously good because you use it after you miss.

So you only use it if you miss by 4 or less.

There is a 1/5 (ie, 4/20) chance that any one attack will miss by 4 or less. So if you make 10 attacks in an encounter (not that far-fetched for a ranger), there is a 90% chance that Action Surge will turn a miss into a hit at some point in the encounter. And as you tend to use more powerful powers earlier on, the first time you miss by 4 or less is the time you'll want to use it.

Did I mention it applies to saves as well? Yum.

---

Battle Awareness is a multiclass fighter feat. You get training in one fighter skill and an encounter power that gives you an interrupt basic attack triggered by someone adjacent to you attacking not-you or shifting. Unlike the fighter version, you don't require that the target be marked, so it doesn't "tell" the target you are threatening them (by RAW).

An off-turn interrupt basic attack with an easy trigger would be a strong encounter power -- and here it is for the cost of a feat (with 13 str/wis requirement, easy for your character) and your multiclass option.

Note that disrupting strike (level 3 or 7 ranger power, interrupt, triggered by you or an ally being hit) is a ranger power that level 30 rangers keep ahold of. Even if you ignore the penalty you apply to the to-hit roll, the off-turn attack is ridiculously solid.

A larger [W] is worth about as much as a +1 to damage. The average damage on a [W] is 1 point higher, even if it has higher variance -- and that higher variance is mitigated by +2 damage instead of +1 on a crit. Although, grabbing the +1 static and the larger [W] is even more useful.

[Kiero]

Well, if you aren't getting to high levels, and you're playing low-magic (so doubtful that you'll be getting an item bonus to damage), you may actually do very well with the scout. Instead of using Twin Strike, you make a melee basic attack (based on Dex, typically), and use Dual Weapon Attack, which is a free action attack you can use once per round when you hit with a melee basic attack. It is an off-hand attack that is Dex vs AC and deals 1W+Dex, so it would be quite effective.

Hmmm, Twin Strike is both simple and effective, since the second attack isn't dependent on the first hitting (and can be on a different target too - great for minion-clearance at range).

I know Twin Strike gets a bad rep as a boring power, but I don't find it so. Also not so keen on switching to a Dex-focused character, which seems to be the main thrust of the Scout.

If we had a Warlord who was causing everyone to spam out the melee basic attacks, then it might be worth thinking about. But unless that happens, I'm not convinced.


At 8th level, you'd have 4 wilderness knacks (things like Ambush Expertise, Wilderness Tracker, etc. ) and 3 stances that give you specific fighting styles - Aspect of the Lurking Spider helps stealth and climbing, and gives bonus damage with combat advantage; Aspect of the Pack Wolf gives damage bonus based on the number of allies adjacent to a foe, and lets you leave a square without provoking OAs if it is adjacent to an ally, and so on. As a human you'd have to option of picking up a regular ranger at-will as well, so you could even grab Throw and Stab, which is a powerful combo with Dual Weapon Attack (since Throw and Stab grants a melee basic, and Dual Weapon Attack triggers on a melee basic, so you can get a ranged attack on an off target and a double attack on a melee target).

The knacks do sound cool, but as above I'm not so sure about the switch into a completely different combat focus.

How does Throw and Stab work with twin battleaxes (I'm guessing it doesn't, given they're not throw-able)?


Action Surge is ridiculously good because you use it after you miss.

So you only use it if you miss by 4 or less.

There is a 1/5 (ie, 4/20) chance that any one attack will miss by 4 or less. So if you make 10 attacks in an encounter (not that far-fetched for a ranger), there is a 90% chance that Action Surge will turn a miss into a hit at some point in the encounter. And as you tend to use more powerful powers earlier on, the first time you miss by 4 or less is the time you'll want to use it.

Did I mention it applies to saves as well? Yum.

I spend a Feat slot for something that is useful once per session. Sorry, but I'm not impressed, as I said to date it's been of bugger all use. I'd rather have something that applies more regularly than that.

Even if I just switched Action Surge for Axe Expertise, that would be a massive boost, since I'd get +1 to every single attack roll, rather than +4 or whatever it is to one roll per session.

I should add, it's pretty rare we get through more than two encounters in any given session, most of the time there's only one main set piece.


Battle Awareness is a multiclass fighter feat. You get training in one fighter skill and an encounter power that gives you an interrupt basic attack triggered by someone adjacent to you attacking not-you or shifting. Unlike the fighter version, you don't require that the target be marked, so it doesn't "tell" the target you are threatening them (by RAW).

An off-turn interrupt basic attack with an easy trigger would be a strong encounter power -- and here it is for the cost of a feat (with 13 str/wis requirement, easy for your character) and your multiclass option.

Note that disrupting strike (level 3 or 7 ranger power, interrupt, triggered by you or an ally being hit) is a ranger power that level 30 rangers keep ahold of. Even if you ignore the penalty you apply to the to-hit roll, the off-turn attack is ridiculously solid.

To be honest, it sounds fiddly. Playing a Fighter was much fiddlier than my Ranger character, which had a real elegant simplicity about it. Stalk around, smack things. Slip out when things got too hot. Cut and Run has saved my butt a number of times, and Sweeping Whirlwind nearly took down a dragon.


A larger [W] is worth about as much as a +1 to damage. The average damage on a [W] is 1 point higher, even if it has higher variance -- and that higher variance is mitigated by +2 damage instead of +1 on a crit. Although, grabbing the +1 static and the larger [W] is even more useful.

It might be worth about as much, but again I'll take reliable over possible. Especially if I'm re-rolling the first 1 I roll on damage each time, courtesy of Axe Expertise. That coupled with the bonus to hit is more useful than stepping up the die. Taking both isn't really an option at this point, not without gutting my Feat choices and focusing solely on combat effectiveness.

[The_Snark]

I spend a Feat slot for something that is useful once per session. Sorry, but I'm not impressed, as I said to date it's been of bugger all use. I'd rather have something that applies more regularly than that.

Even if I just switched Action Surge for Axe Expertise, that would be a massive boost, since I'd get +1 to every single attack roll, rather than +4 or whatever it is to one roll per session.

I should add, it's pretty rare we get through more than two encounters in any given session, most of the time there's only one main set piece.

To clarify: I think Yakk means Heroic Surge, the human racial power from the Essentials books, rather than Action Surge.

It's a pretty spiffy power, in my experience. Sure, you only get it once per encounter, but all you're giving up in exchange is one of your at-wills. Do you really need both Nimble Strike and Hit and Run? They seem pretty similar to me.

Swapping Action Surge for Axe Expertise sounds like a good idea, incidentally; like you, I've always been a little leery of a feat that only applies once every 2 encounters (or however often you're supposed to get action points).

[Kiero]

To clarify: I think Yakk means Heroic Surge, the human racial power from the Essentials books, rather than Action Surge.

It's a pretty spiffy power, in my experience. Sure, you only get it once per encounter, but all you're giving up in exchange is one of your at-wills. Do you really need both Nimble Strike and Hit and Run? They seem pretty similar to me.

Hit and Run is good for getting out of a tight spot, but Nimble Strike is definitely my 3rd at-will. Turns out it's more useful when I'm playing at archer than in my primary, melee role.

Heroic Surge sounds like there's some healing involved, is that the case? That's what I'm missing more than anything else, really.


Swapping Action Surge for Axe Expertise sounds like a good idea, incidentally; like you, I've always been a little leery of a feat that only applies once every 2 encounters (or however often you're supposed to get action points).

Indeed.

[Epinephrine]

Hmmm, Twin Strike is both simple and effective, since the second attack isn't dependent on the first hitting (and can be on a different target too - great for minion-clearance at range).

True, TS is incredibly solid.


I know Twin Strike gets a bad rep as a boring power, but I don't find it so. Also not so keen on switching to a Dex-focused character, which seems to be the main thrust of the Scout.

Yup, the dex-based Dual Weapon Attack pretty much makes it a Dex-based class. I suppose that with your stats you could make the melee basic using strength, then make your off-hand attack at an effective -1 to hit. Scouts don't get to swing one-handed weapons as off-hand, so you'd have to go to big axe/handaxe (though this does work well with the throw and stab).

Twin strike is roughly 1d10+4 twice.
Scout dual weapon attack with Axe/handaxe is 1d10+10 on the primary and 1d6+9 (at an effective -1 to hit) on the off-hand.

Twin Strike is the more reliable option - you're much more likely to at least deal some damage, and it works with ranged as well as with melee. Plus you get to use two big axes. Assuming a 65% chance of hitting with twin strike, the DPS is ~12.4 without crits, the Axe/handaxe with the Scout is ~15.0 DPS, with greater variability.


How does Throw and Stab work with twin battleaxes (I'm guessing it doesn't, given they're not throw-able)?

Correct. As the scout needs to use an off-hand weapon, the handaxe would fill that role. It's a big change though, and I totally get not wanting to change a character much. The scout fit what I was looking for perfectly, but it sounds like you're quite happy with your Str-based dual big axe guy.

[The_Snark]

Hit and Run is good for getting out of a tight spot, but Nimble Strike is definitely my 3rd at-will. Turns out it's more useful when I'm playing at archer than in my primary, melee role.

Fair enough. I've never played a ranger, so I'm not sure how much use it would be to have both in actual play; it just seemed like Nimble Strike could sub in for Hit and Run in most cases (attack and shift away, then move now that you're out of their threatened zone).

EDIT- just noticed that Nimble Strike is ranged-only, while Hit and Run is melee. For some reason I thought Nimble Strike was ranged or melee. Wow. Maybe I had it mixed up with the rogue power that does that?

Okay, that explains why you want both, then. I guess you could still use Nimble Strike to get out of melee if you pick Master at Arms instead of Axe Expertise (swap weapons, shift away and attack at range, then move), but it's a bit more cumbersome.


Heroic Surge sounds like there's some healing involved, is that the case? That's what I'm missing more than anything else, really.

Unfortunately, no. It lets you add 4 to the result of a failed attack roll or saving throw 1/encounter. So if you know you only missed that last attack by a little bit, or if you failed a saving throw against something annoying, then it'll bail you out.

[Kiero]

What's really ironic is that before I'd added the half-Rhegedmen business to my character's background (and played him thus), a twin handaxe-using Scout (with added throw!) would have been right up my street.

But now he's crystallised into this big, twin-battleaxe-wielding barbarian sort, and I can't really go back on that.

[Kiero]

Alright, subtly different question to consider here. We're looking at possibly going Essentials for the new PCs. If we do that, do Core and Essentials characters play well together, or will the existing ones need to be reskinned for Essentials?

If the latter is the case, can I easily rebuild my Ranger much as he was (in particular with Twin Strike)?

If I hadn't already played my character, I might have been attracted to the Scout, but he's kind of set now. Maybe I could switch to a battleaxe-and-handaxe Throw and Stab-er, but I'd still want my Twin Strike.

[Hidden Sanity]

Post and pre-Essentials characters can be played side-by-side... although the Essentials characters have a narrower spread of optimization(They're fairly idiot proof and thus also more resistant to optimization attempts) meaning that pre-Essentials characters may be less powerful or more powerful, depending on how good you are at optimization.

[darkdragoon]

Switching weapons is your biggest hassle; the MP2 Hunter style would help but then you lose Two-Blade's perks.

MP2 also has the Manticore's Fury feat (bonus to next ranged attack when you hit with melee and vice-versa), but I'm not sure you can trigger it often enough to be worth more than Weapon Focus.

Other than that is themes if they are allowed.

[Kiero]

Alright, I've had a bit of help (thanks Epinephrine) with a Scout build, so I want to compare and contrast my thinking with either continuing as I was, or going to an Essentials build.

The irony is that the flavour of the Scout actually fits a lot better with some of the ideas I had initially for the character, and all the non-combat tricks are really neat in adding flavour.

Critical thing about the longbow is that it's a utility-expander. It gives me the means to hit things at very long range without investing any build resource in archery. I don't intend to be an archery specialist, just able to hit things at range before the real melee starts.

Core:

Blend, Level 8
Human, Ranger
Fighting Style: Two-Blade Fighting Style
Background: Occupation - Criminal (+2 to Stealth)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 14, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10.

AC: 22 Fort: 22 Reflex: 22 Will: 19
HP: 66 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 16

TRAINED SKILLS
Stealth +14, Nature +11, Endurance +11, Acrobatics +12, Athletics +13, Perception +13

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +4, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +6, Heal +6, History +4, Insight +6, Intimidate +4, Religion +4, Streetwise +4, Thievery +7

FEATS
Human: Axe Expertise
Level 1: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 2: Two-Weapon Defense
Level 4: Weapon Focus (Axe)
Level 6: Alertness
Level 8: Quick Draw

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Twin Strike
Ranger at-will 1: Nimble Strike
Ranger at-will 1: Marauder's Rush
Ranger encounter 1: Off-hand Strike
Ranger daily 1: Jaws of the Wolf
Ranger utility 2: Invigorating Stride
Ranger encounter 3: Cut and Run
Ranger daily 5: Frenzied Skirmish
Ranger utility 6: Serpentine Dodge
Ranger encounter 7: Lashing Leaves

ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit, Backpack (empty), Arrows (30), Waterskin, Rations, Trail (10), Frost Battleaxe +2, Boots of Striding (heroic tier), Everlasting Provisions (heroic tier), Magic Battleaxe +2*, Magic Leather Armor +2*, Magic Longbow +2*, Amulet of Protection +2*

*Not actually magic items, but static bonuses attached to the character. Pretending they are magic items is the easiest way to get them into the CB.

So just a few Feat changes, really. Action Surge for Axe Expertise and Quick Draw for Arms Master. Upshot is a fairly heft +2 to hit (and +1 to hit with my bow) and no change to Initiative. Though I may have a weapon-switching issue, depending on how the GM feels about Arms Master's switching vs the slightly better version in Quick Draw.

I'll need to research whether there are any better powers than my current selections, but they've served me well so far.


Essentials:

Blend, level 8
Human, Ranger (Scout)
Ranger Wilderness Knacks Option: Ambush Expertise (Ranger)
Ranger Wilderness Knacks Option: Wilderness Tracker (Ranger)
Two-Weapon Style Option: Spinning Axe Mastery
Level 4 Wilderness Knack Option: Mountain Guide (Ranger)
Level 8 Wilderness Knack Option: Watchful Rest (Ranger)
Human Power Selection Option: Heroic Effort
Unseelie Agent (+2 to Stealth)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 14, DEX 18, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 10

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 14, CON 14, DEX 14, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 10


AC: 23 Fort: 21 Ref: 23 Will: 19
HP: 61 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 15

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +12, Athletics +11, Endurance +10, Nature +11, Perception +13, Stealth +14

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +4, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +6, Heal +6, History +4, Insight +6, Intimidate +4, Religion +4, Streetwise +4, Thievery +7

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Human Racial Power: Heroic Effort
Ranger Utility: Aspect of the Cunning Fox - or Pack Wolf
Ranger Utility: Aspect of the Charging Ram
Ranger Attack: Dual Weapon Attack
Multiple Class Attack: Power Strike
Ranger Utility: Aspect of the Lurking Spider
Ranger Utility 2: Invigorating Stride
Ranger Utility 5: Reactive Shift
Ranger Utility 6: Weave Through the Fray

FEATS
Level 1: Two-Weapon Defense
Level 1: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 2: Weapon Focus (Axe)
Level 4: Axe Expertise
Level 6: Alertness
Level 8: Quick Draw

ITEMS
Frost Brand Battleaxe +2
Magic Hide +2*
Magic Longbow +2*
Amulet of Protection +2*
Magic Handaxe +2*
Adventurer's Kit
Backpack (empty)
Arrows
Waterskin
Trail Rations

*Not actually magic items, but static bonuses attached to the character. Pretending they are magic items is the easiest way to get them into the CB

I'm undecided on the stance thing; Regal Lion fits with my backstory thing about taking down an ogre single-handed (though getting badly wounded too, since Strikers aren't solo fellows). But Charging Ram has more general usefulness.

I may keep Yield Ground, and I liked Weave Through the Fray in play.

[Kiero]

Hmmm, so I don't think Arms Master and Axe Expertise stack. So my choices there are either Axe Expertise and Quick Draw, or Arms Master and Improved Initiative.

Should I be considering a bit of Fighter multiclassing? For the Core option, is there anything in the Tempest direction I could get good utility from? For the Essentials character, is Battle Awareness any good for what I've built? Or Headman's Chop given Charging Ram knocks people down routinely?

[Dimers]

Should I be considering ... Headman's Chop given Charging Ram knocks people down routinely?

In my experience, Headman's Chop benefits from other characters knocking enemies prone. Maybe it's just the DM I've played with, but it seems like most enemies get up on their own turn. I guess it's more useful if you have a lot of off-turn attacks without highly specific triggers.

[Kiero]

I switched Wilderness Wanderer back to Alertness, because while it gives +2 Perception and Nature, the +2 initiative overlaps with Quick Draw (ie can't stack). And it doesn't give Alertness' immunity to surprise.

Though if I was trying to free up Feats for a multiclass one, I could go with Wasteland Wanderer and Master of Arms in place of Axe Expertise, Alertness and Quick Draw. Maybe pick up Iron Will, since my Will Save is crap. Or just Improved Defenses to raise the lot. Or Cold Adaptation, which is pretty thematically appropriate.