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Noctis Vigil
2011-12-03, 05:43 AM
The Impassable Warden

Some people hire watchmen. Some people have guards. But no person or place is quite as safe as those protected by an Impassable Warden. The epitome of defense and front line protection, the Impassable Warden can hold enemies at bay for a maddening length of time.

Requirements:
Alignment: All Impassable Wardens are Lawful.
BAB: +6
Skills: Spot 6 ranks, Listen 6 ranks, Sense Motive 4 ranks
Feats: Improved Initiative
Special: Must be proficient with bucklers, light shields, heavy shields and tower shields. Must worship a deity.

Hit Die: D12

Class Skills: Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Concentration (Con), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Religion), Listen (Wis), Profession (Int), Sense Motive (Cha), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str)
Skillpoints Per Level: 4+Int mod



Level
BAB
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Special
Spellcasting


1st

+1

+2

+0

+2
Guardian, Skilled Shielding

-


2nd

+2

+3

+0

+3
Armor Mobility, Thick Skin
+1 level of divine casting


3rd

+3

+3

+1

+3
Combat Reflexes, Mighty Guard

-


4th

+4

+4

+1

+4
Immoveable, Magic Ward
+1 level of divine casting


5th

+5

+4

+1

+4
Impassable, Bodily Shield

-



Proficiencies: An Impassable Warden gains proficiency with all armors and shields, including exotic armors and shields. He gains no proficiencies with any weapons.

Spellcasting: At each even-numbered level, you gain new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in a divine spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (improved chance of turning or destroying undead, metamagic or item creation feats, and so on). If you had more than one divine spellcasting class before becoming an Impassable Warden, you must decide which class to add each level to for the purpose of determining spells per day and spells known.

Guardian (Ex): No one gets by you when you decide to stand your ground. A foe may no longer make a Tumble check to pass through your threatened area. Any foe who attempts to do so automatically provokes an attack of opportunity from you and is halted in the square in front of where he tried to pass. You may only do this when wielding a shield.

Skilled Shielding (Su): Your shield is blessed by your god. Any shield you wield provides an additional +1 to your AC. This bonus is added to the base AC bonus of any shield you wield. This bonus improves to +2 at 3rd level and +3 at 5th. Additionally, no shield can be sundered or destroyed as long as you are wielding it.

Armored Mobility (Ex): You treat all shields you wield as one size smaller than they are whenever that would be beneficial to you. Tower shields are treated as heavy shields, heavy shields as treated as light shields, light shields are treated as bucklers, and bucklers count as an empty hand. For example, a tower shield would now be considered a heavy shield when making a shield bash and when attacking (no more -2 to attacks), and a heavy shield would now let you hold something in that hand like you could with a light shield. All armor you wear is treated as one category lighter for the purposes of determining your movement speed. Further, your armor check penalty is reduced by your Constitution modifier, up to your class level maximum reduction, to a minimum of 0.

A tower shield used for a shield bash does 1d12 bludgeoning damage. If you use your tower shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next action (usually until the next round). An enhancement bonus on a tower shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the tower shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

Thick Skin: You can shrug off physical attacks. You gain DR2/- for each level of Impassable Warden you have (so you start at DR4/-, and end at DR10/- at 5th level).

Combat Reflexes: You gain Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat, even if you don't meet the prerequisites.

Mighty Guard (Ex): You guard with your body. Why would you dodge blows? You now use your Constitution modifier in place of your Dexterity modifier for the purposes of determining your Reflex save bonus, bonus to Armor Class and bonus attacks granted by Combat Reflexes, if doing so would be beneficial for you. If you add your Constitution modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier to your AC, it is no longer effected by your armor's max dexterity bonus.

Immoveable (Su): An Impassable Warden is blessed by his deity when he stands his ground, and cannot be moved from his chosen ground when he makes a stand. All bullrush and overrun attempts on him automatically fail, and the attacker takes 1d8 bludgeoning damage per point of Con mod the Impassable Warden has. A successful Fort save (DC10+1/2 character level+Con mod) reduces this damage to half. Further, you become immune to tripping attempts, and any attempt to do so provokes an attack of opportunity on the one who tried to trip you. This can only be used when wielding a shield. This ability is not immediately obvious upon seeing the Impassable Warden, and to learn of this ability, a successful Spot check (DC10+class level+Con mod) is required. Anyone who has seen the Impassable Warden stop a bullrush or overrun in this manner immediately becomes aware of the ability, even without the Spot check or if they failed their Spot check.

Magic Ward: An Impassable Warden must be able to block spells aimed at him and his foes. He gains spell resistance and power resistance equal to 10 + his character level + the bonus to AC granted by Skilled Shielding.

Impassable (Su): An Impassable Warden is just that: impassable. Provided he has walls within 5 feet of either side of him or has a shield equipped, it is impossible for foes to get past him. The square he is in and the two squares on the left and right of him are considered impassable, and anyone trying to get past him in any of those spaces is stopped and provokes an attack of opportunity against the Impassable Warden. All attacks past these three squares are stopped as if there was a wall there, as the Impassable Warden uses his body or shield to block them. This effect stops all physical attacks, all spells and psionics that have an area of effect, and all spells and psionics that effect a single target behind the Impassable Warden. These attacks are not simply negated, they are refocused onto the Impassable Warden (area of attack spells stop at him, though he is still effected by them). This ability extends his Immoveable ability to the two squares on either side of him as well. Additionally, if he stands at the only entrance to a building, structure, or any other sealed area, it is treated as if it were under the effect of the Dimensional Lock spell (those within the area can leave through magical means, but cannot enter with those later if they do). His allies may still stand in the two spaces next to him, and may still attack past him through the spaces. Allies in the two spaces next to him are covered by this ability.

Bodily Shield: Your body can take a beating far beyond the normal person. All your hit dice are now one size larger (to a max of d12), and you now have max hit points for all your hit dice.
____________________________________

PEACH away. My goal was to make a very good defense class, tier 3-4. I don't think I hit 3: it's too focused for that.

EDIT: Gave the class a major overhaul. Please PEACH. And Impassable really needs some suggestions for help wording it.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-03, 06:04 AM
Problems with the spellcasting feature:

You neglected to mention "An increase in caster level, as well as access to higher level spells, if relevant". Additionally, you use 3rd person here but 2nd person for the rest of the class. It doesn't look good.

Special Prerequisites: There are about seven or eight exotic shields in existence. That's quite a few feats to burn. I would say "Must be proficient with bucklers, light, heavy, and tower shields".

Armored Mobility: You can't shield bash with a tower shield. If your intention is to make armored mobility allow tower shields to be used to bash with, you need to draw up stats for a tower shield as a weapon, and also add a clause about letting the tower shield be enchanted as both a weapon and as a shield, like heavy and light shields are.

Also I'm surprised that you didn't have Armored Mobility reduce Armor Check Penalties. (Perhaps by an amount equal to your Constitution modifier, with a maximum equal to your class level?)

Unmoveable: The Overrun special attack does not actually move the character, but instead attempts to knock the character prone so that you can move over him.

By that logic, this bonus should either only apply to Bull Rush attacks, or it should also apply to Trip attacks, because Tripping and Overrunning are basically the same thing, and an immunity to Overrun should give you an immunity to Trip.

Also, perhaps this bonus should give him some kind of bonus to his save against being Trampled?

Skills: Spot, Listen, Climb/Jump/Swim because it's a combat class, Craft and Profession because everything has those, Concentration because why not it's a Con class, Knowledge (Religion), and Intimidate. Bam. 2+Int per level and you're done.

Togath
2011-12-03, 06:42 AM
The Unpassable Warden

Some people hire watchmen. Some people have guards. But no person or place is quite as safe as those protected by an Unpassable Warden. The epitome of defense and front line protection, the Unpassable Warden can hold enemies at bay for a maddening length of time.

Requirements:
Alignment: All Unpassable Wardens are Lawful.
Skills: Spot 8 ranks, Listen 8 ranks, Sense Motive 4 ranks
Feats: Improved Initiative
Stats: Con 16
Special: Must be proficient with all shields, including tower shields. Must worship a deity.


is this meant as a class for paladins and clerics?, the "must worship a deity points to it being for some types or clerics(ones with deities, as opposed to ones with none), but paladins donít need a deity for their magic(they basically gain it through force of will), in addition, just having "must worship a deity" as a requirement means a single class fighter could enter the class by being a worshiper of cuthbert, which seems to contradict the spell casting abilities of this class and the statement of him gaining additional spells per day as if he had gained a level in a divine spellcasting class he had before entering this class, however the ability does not grant the ability to cast spells to non spellcasters who enter the class with the current requirements being only "must worship a deity"

PersonMan
2011-12-03, 07:59 AM
Requirements:
Alignment: All Unpassable Wardens are Lawful.
Skills: Spot 8 ranks, Listen 8 ranks, Sense Motive 4 ranks
Feats: Improved Initiative
Stats: Con 16
Special: Must be proficient with all shields, including tower shields. Must worship a deity.

Hit Die: D12

I've never been a fan of alignment restrictions, but alright.

Deity worship requirement seems odd, as there isn't much in the rest of the class (apart from fluff) that points to divine class entry.

d12 Hit Die is the sort of thing you'd expect for 'no, stay there' type people.



{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spellcasting

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+2|Guardian, Skilled Shielding|

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+3|Shield Mobility|+1 level of divine casting

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+3|Combat Reflexes, Mighty Guard|

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+4|Unmoveable|+1 level of divine casting

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+4|Unpassable|[/table]

Spellcasting: At 2nd and 4th levels, he gains additional spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had gained a level in one divine spellcasting class he had before entering this class. He gains no other features of this class (bonus feats, improved turning, et cetera). If he had more than one type of divine casting, he must choose which to apply the extra spellcasting ability to.



Shield Mobility doesn't exist. Armor Mobility is what it says in your text.

Spellcasting advancement in a class that doesn't require any to enter is odd. You're missing the '+CL' clause, too.

Normally, you'd say 'If the unpassable warden had more than one divine spellcasting class before entering this class, they must choose which one to advance. This choice cannot be changed.' if you want to be gender neutral or use one gender doesn't matter, I switch between classes but I default to they.



Guardian (Ex): No one gets by you when you decide to stand your ground. A foe may no longer make a Tumble check to pass through your guard. Any foe who attempts to do so automatically provokes an attack of opportunity from you and is halted in the square in front of where he tried to pass. You may only do this with a shield equipped.


You generally say which level you get an ability in the description.

So, what's 'your guard'? Your square? All squares within reach? The latter makes the most sense, but it's better to specify. Generally, abilities like this make those trying to use Tumble aware of this beforehand, but that's up to you. Also, from which direction is 'in front' determined? Perhaps say they provoke the AOO and get stopped when trying to leave a square that's [in your reach, I'd think; substitute your definition of 'your guard' here].

'Equipped' is not terminology used in DnD. 'Wielded' or 'while wielding a shield' works, though.


Skilled Shielding (Su): Your shield is blessed by your god. Any shield you wield provides double the bonus to your AC that it normally would and will never break as long as it is in your hand.

Cool. Now you'll be hard to hit. Slight terminology nitpicking: 'provides double the normal shield bonus' and 'cannot be sundered or otherwise destroyed' is more in line with the normal language.


Combat Reflexes: You gain Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat.

Cool. Maybe something to let you base it off of Con, rather than Dex?


Mighty Guard (Ex): Your body is used to provide a guard with. Why would you dodge blows? Your Ref saves are now determined by your Con stat instead of your Dex stat, you add your Con mod to your AC instead of your Dex mod, and you use your Con mod to determine bonus attacks granted by Combat Reflexes.

Well, the first sentence doesn't make much sense. You provide a guard with your body? Strange.

Con to Ref sounds good. I'd say 'You now use your Constitution modifier in place of your Dexterity modifier for the purposes of determining your Reflex save bonus, bonus to Armor Class and bonus attacks granted by Combat Reflexes, if doing so would be beneficial for you' to be in line with the normal terminology, etc. and avoid accidentally screwing over the rare high-Dex unpassable warden.



Armored Mobility (Ex): You treat all shields you wield as one size smaller than they are whenever that would be beneficial to you. Tower shields are treated as heavy shields, heavy shields as treated as light shields, light shields are treated as bucklers, and bucklers count as an empty hand. For example, a tower shield would now be considered a heavy shield when making a shield bash and when attacking (no more -2 to attacks), and a heavy shield would now let you hold something in that hand like you could with a light shield. Further, all armor is likewise treated as one weight lighter for the purposes of determining movement speed.

Sounds good, except for the armor part. I'd say 'all armor you wear is treated as one category lighter for the purposes of determining your movement speed'.


Unmoveable (Su): An Unpassable Warden is blessed by his deity when he stands his ground, and cannot be moved from his chosen ground when he makes a stand. All bullrush and overrun attempts on him automatically fail, and the attacker takes 1d6 bludgeoning damage for every 5 feet he had left to move after hitting the Unpassable Warden. This can only be used when you have a shield equipped.

Cool. Maybe allow a Fort or Ref save for half, probably Con-based, and change 'equipped'. Otherwise, looks good.


Unpassable (Su): An Unpassable Warden is just that: unpassable. Provided he has walls within 5 feet of either side of him or has a shield equipped, it is impossible for foes to get past him. The square he is in and the two squares on either side of him are considered walls, and anyone trying to get past him in any of those spaces is stopped and provokes an attack of opportunity against the Unpassable Warden. This ability extends his Guardian and Unmoveable abilities to the two squares on either side of him as well. More, if he stands in the only entrance to a place and blocks all entry, all forms of teleportation and magical transportation into the place are also blocked. His allies may still stand in the two spaces next to him, and may still attack past him through the spaces.

Either side can mean front or back, as well as left and right. Additionally, what does 'treated as walls' mean? Can enemies attack them to damage or destroy them? Can ethereal things pass through them?

I'd change the other ability's description to 'Additionally, if he stands at the only entrance to a building, structure, or any other sealed area, it is treated as if it were under the effect of the Dimensional Lock spell (those within the area can leave through magical means, but cannot enter with those later if they do).'


All in all, it's a solid class. Very focused, but it has a good concept and the execution works. I doubt that any of us knew how exactly to formulate ability descriptions the first time we made something, it's something that gets easier with practice.

By the way, for the 'stop and AOO' thing, there's a feat called Stand Still. Maybe give that as a bonus feat, and later make it an automatic effect that lets you still do damage with your attack?

OK, I got to thinking on this, and as you'll see, there are no listed class skills yet, because I couldn't figure out what would fit him best. Suggestions? Also, PEACH away. My goal was to make a very good defense class, tier 3-4. I don't think I hit 3: it's too focused for that.[/QUOTE]

Noctis Vigil
2011-12-04, 12:00 AM
Most the complaints are about poor wording? Awesome. Not bad for a class I put together in about 2 hours. OK, let's cover some stuff:

1.) Spellcasting/have a deity. His ability to stop a charge and his unbreakable shield are blessings from his god. He does not have to have spellcasting to get in, but it seemed natural that since he must worship a god to get in, you'd have lots of Paladins, Clerics and Favored Souls taking this, so I added some small casting increase so as not to give a caster 5 dead levels. I will admit I didn't look up how it's worded in the books when I wrote the class, so I thank you for pointing out discrepancies for me. I just looked up a class and copied the wording from one of the books, so it should be correct now.

2.) Shield Mobility was the original name for it, and it has now been corrected. Thanks for catching that.

3.) Your guard is specifically the area you threaten, in regards to the Guardian ability. Normally, you can make a Tumble check to pass someone without provoking an AOO; this stops that.

4.) What I was trying to convey with the wording on Mighty Guard is that instead of dodging blows, the class sort of soaks them up through sheer toughness. Clearly, the wording I chose didn't get that across. Suggestions for this one?

5.) Unpassable clearly needs work. Those three squares (the one you are in and the one to your left and right) are considered totally unpassable to any foe, be it by corporeal or ethereal, magical or mundane, spell or sword. Rays aimed past you fade away, arrows stop, swords halt, daggers falter, area spells act like there is a barrier halting their expansion. Anything offensive is blocked, and foes cannot target anything behind you until you fall. Gonna need to figure out the right way to word this one.

Anyways, I think I hit every point made here, and updated most of what was said needed updating. Did I miss anything? Also, skills are up. Thoughts?

jiriku
2011-12-04, 12:26 PM
The class skill list is good. You need to specify a number of skill points gained per level. I suggest 4.

What is your intended entry for this class? Most martial base classes do not have Listen or Spot as class skills, and will struggle to meet the skill point requirements before level 13. This class is not powerful enough to be worth taking at level 14-18.

Per the DMG, prestige classes should not have minimum ability score requirements. I recommend you drop that requirement. Entering the class with a poor Con score is its own punishment.

If you're going to offer spellcasting advancement, but not require spellcasting, you should offer alternative benefits for characters who enter without spellcasting. For example, at levels 2 and 4, the character might gain his choice of a level of spellcasting advancement, a fighter bonus feat, an advancement of sneak attack, skirmish, or sudden strike, or a level of martial initiator advancement and a new maneuver known.

Guardian: This should either say "square" or "threatened space" instead of "guard". I'm not sure which you intended.

Skilled Shielding: You do not want to grant an AC doubling. A UW with Shield Specialization and a +5 tower shield can gain a constant +10 AC with this ability. That way lies characters who break party balance. I'd recommend a +1 bonus, increasing to +2 at 3rd level and +3 at 5th. Rather than increasing the shield bonus, I'd suggest make it a competence bonus to AC gained whenever the UW would normally be able to apply his shield bonus to AC (thus, not valid against attacks that would normally ignore the shield). For extra juice, you might consider also adding the same competence bonus to Reflex saves (the character has learned to cover behind his shield).

Mighty Guard: I'd suggest for the first sentence, "You guard with your body." You'll need to specify whether the Con bonus to AC is limited by the max Dex bonus to AC from armor.

Unmoveable: This feature doesn't work right. When you speak of an attacker taking damage according to the distance "he still had to charge", this is a problem because A) a bull rush or overrun is not necessarily (or usually) a charge, and B) there is no minimum move required after a failed bull rush or overrun. Also, scaling the DC of the save with the amount of damage taken is very precarious mathematically; it's too easy for the DC to be inappopriately easy or difficult for the intended encounter level. A DC based on the 1/2 character level would be more balanced. Also, you need to specify whether this is a "gotcha" ability, or whether the attacker is aware of the consequences of his actions. In general, a "gotcha" ability is more appropriate when it requires an action to initiate it, and "you're aware of the danger" is a better fit for always-on defenses. Finally, under what circumstances can this ability be negated? For example, does it still work if the UW is flat-footed, blinded, dazed, stunned, helpless, or unconscious?

Unpassable: I would suggest comparing this effect to a wall of force, which should get the point across. However, it's out of keeping with the rest of the class. Prior to this level, the character has had no ability to stop arrows, deflect rays, bar ethereal creatures, or prevent dimensional travel. It just shows up all at once and it feels very out of keeping with the rest of the class.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-04, 12:45 PM
Mighty Guard: I'd suggest for the first sentence, "You guard with your body." You'll need to specify whether the Con bonus to AC is limited by the max Dex bonus to AC from armor.


Actually, jiriku, Deepwarden (the prestige class from RoS with a similar ability) doesn't clarify this either.

The Underlord
2011-12-04, 01:49 PM
So I have an odd suggestion. There are white raven and devoted spirit maneuvers and stances that go perfectly with this class. Stuff like iron guards glare, thicket of blades, douse the flames, covering strike, defensive rebuke, shield counter, and immortal fortidtude make lots of thematic sense. MAybe you could add a classs feature where they could learn a small number of these maneuvers/stances? Just a random thought.

Noctis Vigil
2011-12-04, 02:30 PM
OK, don't have enough time to make a long post, but to answer a couple questions:

1.) Jiriku, I will follow some of your suggestions when I get home from work, and will give a longer response to your post then as well. For now, I'll settle with the fact that Spot and Listen will definitely still be requirements. A guardian type class is going to want those. I may or may not lower the entry requirements, will think this over. Does anyone else have an opinion on this? I didn't think it was too high, personally.

2.) The Underlord, I didn't add maneuvers because I don't know the system that well, never use it, and never allow its use when I GM, so I saw no reason to put them in my homebrew.

jiriku
2011-12-04, 06:45 PM
Actually, jiriku, Deepwarden (the prestige class from RoS with a similar ability) doesn't clarify this either.

Then so much the worse for the Deepwarden! :smallcool:

Pechvarry
2011-12-04, 10:20 PM
I like the class, for the most part. I don't see why people are nitpicking so much about wording of spellcasting stuff -- this is homebrew! If you're using this in a game, you already declared you're not running the game to the "t".

The requirements: I'd like to see the spot/listen lowered -- probably to 5 ranks (level 7 cross-class). In return, I would add a BAB prereq. In place of CON 16, consider a base fortitude save amount. +5 is a good number again (level 6 of a strong Fort progression class).

Stick to your guns on the requiring deity/not requiring spellcasting. I like the idea of my Knight taking this class (and Crusader if the DM agrees to trade out spellcasting for +maneuver advancement at those levels).

Mechanically, Unpassable definitely needs rewording. Starting with the name. I'd change to Impassible as it's a word. Good luck wording its effects. I'm not sure what it's supposed to do, currently.

Finally, my biggest problem with this class is "hard counters". Auto-blocking tumbles, unable to be tripped, etc. It causes an arms race, where you have to always dictate whether an immovable object or unstoppable force wins. Unrelated, but we house-rule Freedom of Movement to only provide a +10 on the checks it's supposed to let you auto-win for this reason. Not to say that I would necessarily have you change these features. But at my table, we'd change all immunities to +10s/20s on checks (such as +20 to the tumble DC).

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-04, 11:40 PM
They're right about the Spot and Listen, Noctis. Paladins don't qualify early, neither do barbarians, crusaders, knights, or fighters. In fact, the only martial class that does qualify early is the ranger, which is a class that has flavor based on hiding and movement (and is most effective when it's sniping, and I use the term "effective" very loosely here)

Noctis Vigil
2011-12-05, 12:06 AM
Let the record state that my brain is currently far too tired to be doing homebrew, and I should really be holding off on working with this until tomorrow. Anyways, where did I leave off? Ah yes, the mighty Jiriku's post.

1.) Intended entry was around 8 or so. I actually flat out ban PrCs in my games until at least 7th level (you mast have this many levels to take this class...), and I try to make sure my homebrew PrCs always have enough hard requirements to make sure they aren't taken earlier than that.

2.) I'll probably drop the Con req, as you're not the only one to complain about it. It was really only there to try and prevent people who wouldn't benefit from the class from taking it, anyways.

3.) I probably won't be adding additional level up abilities like sneak attack, skirmish, maneuvers, et cetera, but feel free to let those advance instead if you want if you use the class. I just saw this as a divine class when I wrote it.

4.) I thought Guardian already specified that. I must be losing my mind (even more so than usual, anyways). Will change that to "threatened area".

5.) Actually, as I'm contemplating the rewrite of Unpassable, I think I'll leave Skilled Shielding's AC bonus as doubled, since the rewrite will make all attacks that pass through the Unpassable Warden and his two guarded squares be absorbed by him, and that will mean he's taking a lot of hits, which a high AC will help mitigate.

6.) I'm going to say no, Con AC bonus isn't effected by max Dex bonus, because it isn't a Dex bonus now is it? :smallcool:

7.) For Unmoveable, how would you word damage? Just make it a flat number? And how does a DC of 10 + 1/2 character level sound to you?

8.) Bwa ha ha...Unpassable. I'm doing a total rewrite of the ability from the ground up. He'll block everything that goes by those spaces with his own body: all attacks, be they physical, magical or psionic, and all who try to pass him. So a ray or area spell fired at those spaces will stop at him, and he'll take damage for them. He'll also take all attacks into or past those spaces as well (or deflect and negate them if his AC is high enough). I'm also going to have it give him SR to help with all the spells he'll be taking on now, though I have yet to settle on a good amount to give him; my current thought is SR equal to his AC. So instead of just making attacks disappear, he takes them on himself. Unfortunately, I can't think of a way to actually word this ability right now (I swear, my muse is more ADHD than I am some days). Any thoughts for help on this would be amazingly awesome and I would love you forever.

9.) Most of this will be getting renamed, as it's apparently Immoveable and Impassable. I apparently still suck at English. :smallfrown:

userpay
2011-12-05, 12:28 AM
Hmm... Now I'm getting an itch to make a character that dual wields shields just because it would fit this class so well. Perhaps those dwarven buckler axe shields or whatever those are. When this semester is over I'll have to look into doing that.

Noctis Vigil
2011-12-05, 12:29 AM
I recommend this guy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218626) if you do that. :smallwink:

jiriku
2011-12-05, 02:15 AM
I think you're getting good progress. It's shaping up to a be a solid defensive class. I am a little concerned about AC stacking. I tend to look at homebrew classes from the perspective of a DM designing an NPC opponent, so let's play with some numbers and see what it looks like.


Standard NPC paladin 12 (Dex 8, Con 12), w/+2 full plate, +1 heavy steel shield, +1 ring, +2 melee, +2 cloak of Charisma (enchantment value 19,000)
AC 24

Standard NPC paladin 7/impassable warden 5 (Dex 8, Con 14), w/+1 full plate, +2 tower shield, +1 ring, +2 melee, +2 amulet of health (enchantment value 19,000)
AC 34

Monster Manual rule of thumb AC for a CR 12 homebrewed monster (p.298):
25

Armor Class of CR 12 monsters in the Monster Manual (excluding elder black pudding):
Lowest: 17 (greater abyssal basilisk, displacer beast pack lord)
Highest: 28 (mature adult white dragon)
Average: 22.7

CR of creatures with an AC of exactly 34:
Lowest: 15 (marut inevitable)
Highest: 21 (old gold dragon)
Average: 18
I checked monsters with AC of 33 and 35 as well. The marut is an extremely low-CR outlier; most monsters with comparable AC are CR 17-21. Based on this, I think there's real cause for concern here; a basic, non-optimized impassible warden has an AC significantly higher than the norm for its CR, more typical of some of the most powerful monsters in the game. It wouldn't be difficult to imagine a well-optimized PC impassible warden achieving, at ECL 12, an AC that can only be matched by epic monsters.

Noctis Vigil
2011-12-05, 02:34 AM
So those are average numbers? Think you could run me some optimized numbers, Jiriku? I've never been much of an optimizer, and I'm assuming anyone who takes this class will be at least attempting to optimize defense as high as possible. I don't want him impossible to hit, but I do want him to be able to stand in front of a party and soak damage for them for several rounds, and if I make Impassable make all attacks hit him instead of going by him, he'll be taking a lot of hits.

Ooo, idea: maybe instead of stupid high AC, give him stupid high HP? I don't think an ability to either maximize HP die rolls at level up or roll twice for HP is overpowered for a meat shield. Thoughts?

jiriku
2011-12-05, 03:41 AM
Hmmm. I honestly know very little about optimizing tanks, but I'll make a try at it.

Dragonborn desert dwarf paladin 7/impassable warden 5
Base stats (32 PB): Str 15, Dex 8, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 14
W/racial and level bonuses: Str 16, Dex 4, Con 22, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 14
W/items and spells: Str 16, Dex 4, Con 24, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 16
Feats: Improved Initiative, Shield Proficiency (tower shield), Shield Specialization (tower shield), Shield Ward, Divine Shield
Gear: +2 full plate, +4 tower shield, amulet of wise natural health (+1 natural armor, +2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom), cloak of charisma +2
Spells: protection from evil
AC (assumes evil opponent): 48, touch 37, flat-footed 48 (+7 Con, +10 armor, +18 shield, +2 deflection, +1 natural armor)
AC (with Divine Shield active): 54, touch 43, flat-footed 54 (+7 Con, +10 armor, +24 shield, +2 deflection, +1 natural armor)

For this I'm assuming that the Con bonus to AC, since it's not limited by effects that would limit Dex to AC, is not lost when flat-footed. I suck at building tanks so, this definitely isn't the limit of optimization. However, you can see the ceiling is at least AC 54 at ECL 12. For comparison, I think the highest-AC monster in the core book is a great wyrm bronze dragon, with AC 44 at CR 25.

I'd agree that massive hp isn't a bad way to go. The neat thing about hp is that because it doesn't have to live within the probability range of d20, the party can remain balanced even with very elastic variation in hit points between party members. A little DR, say, equal to Con bonus, might be nice too. Spell resistance is also reasonable, but I'd set it to scale at 10 + character level, and apply only against hostile effects.

Unmoveable at 10 + 1/2 character level + Con bonus sounds good to me. It's more common to use "prc level" instead of "1/2 character level", but that method, although common, produces really wonky DCs that don't scale elegantly with level. To my way of thinking, the 1/2 character level method is a much smoother and more polished way of handling it.

Thinking generally about being Unpassable, I'd suggest requiring expenditure of a limited resource, like attacks of opportunity, to intercept any given attack or effect. An opposed roll would be in order as well, since I'd expect that an attacker who greatly outclasses an impassable warden ought to have a chance to get past him.

Noctis Vigil
2011-12-05, 04:36 AM
Gave most the abilities an overhaul. Added new abilities. Impassable still needs work, but most of it is just wording now (the words, they are difficult).

Any suggestions or ideas would be awesome.

Noctis Vigil
2011-12-06, 06:52 AM
Really? More than a day and no one has anything to say? :smallfrown:

jiriku
2011-12-06, 11:53 AM
It looks good to me. Really, it's a short class with a simple theme and basic mechanics. It's not like you're building a 10-level incarnum/truenaming hybrid. :smallbiggrin: I'd suggest (assuming you're the DM in your group), that you create a villain group with an impassable warden as the group's primary defender, throw them at your PCs, and see how it goes down.

Noctis Vigil
2011-12-06, 08:36 PM
I was actually looking at how packed it is and wondering if I should extend it to a 10 level PrC.

And unfortunately, the group I run is on indefinitely extended hiatus, probably at least until school is out, so I'll have no chance to test it until then.

And you really shouldn't give my muse ideas like Truname/Incarnum hybrid, Jiriku. It will probably run with it in amazing and disturbing ways.

jiriku
2011-12-07, 12:41 AM
Truename/incarnum hybrid, themed around grafts! :smallamused: