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Killer Angel
2011-12-05, 07:12 AM
We hate evil characters; we wanna see 'em lose, and often, the more badly they lose, the better we feel.
But, c'mon, we also know that evil characters have a strange fascination and a certain appeal, when the idea and the characterization behind them is solid and original.
A lot of stories require evil to work: the good needs evil opponents. You can have the good guys struggle for something and fighting something different from a Bbeg, but certainly good Vs evil is a cliché as old as the world.
So, we have Evil. And, given that this is fictional evil, sometime we can find ourselves admiring the evilness: but this admiration, comes with different flavors... and degrees.

Type 1: We want to see evil lose, but we admire the greatness (or the coolness) of the character.
Examples: The Joker, Xykon, Tywin Lannister from ASOIAF, and so on...

Type 2: a further step... sometime, we root for evil. This is when stories show evil guys fighting other evil guys, so we sympathize for the lesser evil, the coolest one, and so on.
Examples: Dexter (a serial killer that hunts other serial killers? what's not to love about it?), Hannibal Lecter in Hannibal rising (yes, he's a monster. The ones he hunts for vengeance are not better than him).
and then...

Type 3: The Deep Bottom of the pool: Evil guys do horrible things to innocent peoples and, despite being sometimes opposed by good guys, you still want to see them win. It's obviously a rare case, and it's usually the result of a specific intention from the author of the fiction, but it can be possible.
Examples: Lobo - DC comics (The Man committed genocide on its own race. 'Nuff said), Brad Pitt aka Frankie - Devil's own (really, I was rooting for a bloody IRA terrorist?)

Does Evil got some appeal on you? and if yes, when you've found yourself "guilty"?

Avilan the Grey
2011-12-05, 07:44 AM
For me it only works with three-dimensional characters who are not Complete Monsters. Well, that and if they're female and hot... :smallredface::smalltongue:

I, for example, cannot stand the Joker, because he has zero character growth and is a complete monster.

Examples of evil characters I like:

Viconia from the Baldur's Gate games. She is a Drow Priestess of Shar, a goddess of Evil but less evil than the goddess of Evil that hunts Viconia and wants her dead. She also clearly grows as a character through the games.

Regina Mills. From Once Upon a Time. In her Fairytale persona she was a complete monster, but in her modern day persona she is a manipulating ...., but she basically crying openly when her adoptive son is thought to have died in the mine.

Dr Doom (when written as an egomaniac and magnificent bastard). Absolute but popular ruler, evil genius, keeper of his word, let's his pride and ego get in the way of being evil (can't kill the Fantastic Four after they help him, since what would make him "dishonorable and weak", and "Doom is NOT dishonorable and Weak!").

Jack from Mass Effect 2. Has done HORRIFIC things, but her extremely traumatic backstory makes you understand them. This is definitely not a case of "blaming it on my childhood" or "my parents wouldn't let me borrow their car so I killed them", she was basically conditioned, deliberately, as a child to BECOME and evil psychopath (including giving her drugs that made her feel pleasure when killing other children). And by the end of the game she is slowly wrestling out of that, too.

INDYSTAR188
2011-12-05, 08:12 AM
I only find myself sympathetic with characters who I percieve as not evil. Having said that, the Song of Ice and Fire series is a perfect example of getting 'all viewpoints'. So, while I dislike Jamie Lannister for the first two books, I begin to see he's realizing how evil and manipulative his family is, and he's somewhat sorry for it. That sort of thing leads me to 'root' for the evil guy.

The previous poster put on Regina Mills from 'Once Upon A Time', but I cannot bring myself to like her. Her 'fantasy' self was a terrible monster and imho her 'real' self is just as much of one.... controlling, manipulative, willing to tread all over other peoples lives to reach her goals.... can't stand her!

A anti-hero who commits very bad sins who I do like is Roland Deschain from 'The Dark Tower'. He does all kinds of bad things and I think in the end he pays dearly for them. But, I can't help but root for him along the way. Maybe it's because I think of him as more neutral than evil.

thubby
2011-12-05, 08:12 AM
alucard, from hellsing, is the epitome of cool evil.

he's unapologetically evil on a leash, but you see a lot of his character in him.

Avilan the Grey
2011-12-05, 08:20 AM
The previous poster put on Regina Mills from 'Once Upon A Time', but I cannot bring myself to like her. Her 'fantasy' self was a terrible monster and imho her 'real' self is just as much of one.... controlling, manipulative, willing to tread all over other peoples lives to reach her goals.... can't stand her!

At this point it depends entirely what they do with her. The easy way is to keep her as a complete monster, but with all the hints of actual character growth it can become very interesting, and that is why I enjoy her.

My dream would be her and Elizabeth teaming up against "Mr Gold" at some point.

Ravens_cry
2011-12-05, 08:30 AM
Dexter is not sympathetic, at least in my view.
He's a a torturing serial killer.
His choice of targets may make him sympathetic to some people, but not me.
The Joker even less so. As 'The Killing Joke' asked, sure, OK, maybe The Joker had a tough day.
Yes, it was apparently terrible.
But people survive worse with their sanity intact.
As Batman asked, maybe it's you, Mr. J.
Maybe it's you.
***
Moving along, what are some Team Evil I sympathized with?
Mostly the protagonists in Heist Films, like "The Good Thief" or "Oceans 11", as well as related films like "The Sting".
Using social engineering and stealth, rather than brute force and murder to achieve goals, always more satisfying than some psychotic killer in my opinion.

Killer Angel
2011-12-05, 08:43 AM
I, for example, cannot stand the Joker, because he has zero character growth and is a complete monster.


He is, indeed.
But Ledger's Joker, shows a characterization that's undeniably powerful.

Avilan the Grey
2011-12-05, 08:50 AM
He is, indeed.
But Ledger's Joker, shows a characterization that's undeniably powerful.

Powerful, yes. Finds interesting or sympathetic? No.

INDYSTAR188
2011-12-05, 08:52 AM
This is tough for me because I can't even bring myself to play a evil/bad guy in DnD or video games. I believe good villains make great stories but I can't bring myself to root for them. Especially stupid evil. Even when we game and my PC's make an evil character I have to tell them the forces of good unite to destroy evil, but evil is selfish and you'll probably be on your own!

Avilan the Grey
2011-12-05, 08:55 AM
This is tough for me because I can't even bring myself to play a evil/bad guy in DnD or video games.

I can do evil as in "end justifies the means" and "utterly ruthless". I cannot bring myself to play "complete monster".

(Example: I can force they possessed boy's mother to kill her own son in Dragon Age: Origins, but I could never choose to just leave the town to the zombies, or to blow up Megaton in FO3).

Ravens_cry
2011-12-05, 08:56 AM
@Killer Angel:
A watchmaker might find a particularly mangled watch a fascinating puzzle to try and repair.
That does not mean they like seen watches in such a state.
I always found Harley more sympathetic.
She's almost as nuts as him, but it more feels she is just a long for the ride, on a roller coaster she tried to stop but now can't get off.

Kato
2011-12-05, 09:03 AM
Dexter is not sympathetic, at least in my view.
He's a a torturing serial killer.
His choice of targets may make him sympathetic to some people, but not me.

In his defense: He dropped the torturing a while ago. I like Dexter, though I'll admit he's not entirely sympathetic. But he cares for good people and his evil deeds cause good in the long run. I'm mostly dissatisfied when he decides he needs to kill instead of delivering the person to the police but he has kind of an addiction to his hobby so... it's kind of justified.


alucard, from hellsing, is the epitome of cool evil.

he's unapologetically evil on a leash, but you see a lot of his character in him.
Nah, not really. He's closer to entirely neutral than to evil. He doesn't go around killing people for fun, I don't think he would if he could but he just doesn't give a crap most of the time. And he can be sympathetic.


That said... I can like quite a few villains, even with shady justifications *coughTobicough* but I don't get the 'love the villain because he is oh so evil' stick. Not for the Joker, not for someone like Gregor Clegane or Ali al Saachez. These are people I... nope, I can't get myself to like.

Gensh
2011-12-05, 09:05 AM
Dr Doom (when written as an egomaniac and magnificent bastard). Absolute but popular ruler, evil genius, keeper of his word, let's his pride and ego get in the way of being evil (can't kill the Fantastic Four after they help him, since what would make him "dishonorable and weak", and "Doom is NOT dishonorable and Weak!").

Doom isn't the bad guy here; he rarely is. He's just been caught in horrible situation after horrible situation and learned to stay alive by being supremely selfish and solving all his problems with brute force. On a few occasions, an author has even shown what would happen if Doom won. The result is always a utopia up to the point where he gets bored and restores democracy. Besides, I still wonder how anyone can see Richards as the good guy when he always acts like this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdzOiMPL7-U&t=3m45s)


Powerful, yes. Finds interesting or sympathetic? No.

Going to have to agree with you there.

In general, I feel the greatest sympathy for villains who aren't really the villain, like Doom, especially when they were never given the opportunity to be otherwise. In particular, discussing the morality of the yozis (roughly the Greek titans) has kind of become a taboo topic in the Exalted thread because I argued so adamantly in their favor. :smallredface:

Mixt
2011-12-05, 09:10 AM
Disgaea 4.
Judge Nemo.

Can't help but feel sorry for the guy, even though he pretty much went Omnicidal Maniac for a while.

Ravens_cry
2011-12-05, 09:13 AM
In his defense: He dropped the torturing a while ago. I like Dexter, though I'll admit he's not entirely sympathetic. But he cares for good people and his evil deeds cause good in the long run.

Because the authors say so.


I'm mostly dissatisfied when he decides he needs to kill instead of delivering the person to the police but he has kind of an addiction to his hobby so... it's kind of justified.

A reason is not the same thing as a justification.

Bastian Weaver
2011-12-05, 09:23 AM
Yeah, I feel something like that about the Joker. He's a cool villain when voiced by Mark Hamill, I enjoy watching him in action, but I want him to lose. Well, maybe not that simple... I want him to lose to Batman, but when there's a conflict between various bad guys, I certainly want the Joker to come out on top.
And THEN to lose.

Eldan
2011-12-05, 09:24 AM
***
Moving along, what are some Team Evil I sympathized with?
Mostly the protagonists in Heist Films, like "The Good Thief" or "Oceans 11", as well as related films like "The Sting".
Using social engineering and stealth, rather than brute force and murder to achieve goals, always more satisfying than some psychotic killer in my opinion.

Those, really, I wouldn't call "Evil". Criminals, sure, but overall not actually bad people. Ruthless, maybe, egoistical, greedy, but not evil.

Dienekes
2011-12-05, 09:29 AM
Well for my part, my favorite character in any media ever is Mistah Jay. The Clown Prince of Crime himself. Something I find altogether fascinating how the utter loon, whose plans are often insane, yet taking a step back it all sort of works (depending on the quality of the writer of course). He's completely deplorable in every sense, I don't think there is a crime he has not committed, yet somehow he can still make the audience laugh, and then abruptly stop as soon as they realized what they just laughed at.

What I don't like about sympathetic villains is a lot of the time it doesn't work. I don't feel sympathy for villains, at any time really. I've always carried the belief that despite your background an individual has control of their actions and can choose what they make of their life, unless they are a literal slave. So hearing how some baddie had a tough childhood, or how everything conspired against them does nothing for me. If they have some sort of grand design even less so. At least the Joker acknowledges that he's a villain and doesn't dance around the issue to make himself feel better about killing things. For example Jack from ME2, yeah your childhood story is very, very sad. I will hunt down those buggers who did that too you if I could. However you also killed thousands of people many that have done nothing to you, and you are a danger to everyone around you, I'm going to take you back to prison now to serve your sentence. Dr Doom deludes himself as being just when he captures heroes and sends them to Hell, or bombs civilians with a symbiote. Sorry, no, he's as monstrous as the Joker with a veneer of self-delusion on top of it. Or Jamie Lannister, "It always comes back to Aerys." That's because you didn't tell anyone about the bombs you arrogant, idiotic, bugger. And no, I don't blame you for Aerys, I blame you for everything you've done since then. You threw a child out a window because you couldn't keep it in your pants. Please, explain to me why I should feel one scrap of pity for you? Every action you've made before Brienne is from your own selfishness, arrogance, and stupidity.

Also the point of the Killing Joke is that it was just him. Gordon didn't crack. You can't push anyone to be an insane lunatic, the Joker and Batman were special.

Ravens_cry
2011-12-05, 09:33 AM
Those, really, I wouldn't call "Evil". Criminals, sure, but overall not actually bad people. Ruthless, maybe, egoistical, greedy, but not evil.
What would you call such actions then?

Also the point of the Killing Joke is that it was just him. Gordon didn't crack. You can't push anyone to be an insane lunatic, the Joker and Batman were special.
AKA, utter loons.

Gensh
2011-12-05, 09:49 AM
Dr Doom deludes himself as being just when he captures heroes and sends them to Hell, or bombs civilians with a symbiote. Sorry, no, he's as monstrous as the Joker with a veneer of self-delusion on top of it.

That's the difference with Doom or Magneto or any of those types, though: it isn't a delusion. Justice is an abstract metric at best, but as it stands, Doom's tyranny and self-centered murder of anyone who stands against him, his extensive mistrust of bureaucrats, and his utter ruthlessness changed a third world country into a major industrial power practically overnight. It's not even a nation that is only economically powerful because the people are driven to extremes - the people of Latveria have never been happier and are quite a bit better off than the rest of the world. Doom may only care about himself and his own ideal of magnanimity (depends on the writer), but that he's done more for the common man than nearly any hero speaks volumes. His methods may be unacceptable to polite society, but unlike most others, he actually succeeds. Whether he's sympathetic or not depends entirely on where the viewer draws the line of "acceptable" sacrifice.

Killer Angel
2011-12-05, 09:50 AM
Powerful, yes. Finds interesting or sympathetic? No.

That's true, but it falls in my case 1: I want to see the evil dude losing or dead, but still the bad guy is, for one reason or another, unforgettable: its presence alone gives a speed bump to that particular work of fiction.

Kato
2011-12-05, 09:50 AM
What would you call such actions then?

Illegal :smalltongue: And since we are not allowed to get political we better not discuss this.



Because the authors say so.
How not? If he kills someone who'd kill at least two more people he already got a positive balance. And he's not killing for revenge but for prevention, or at least tries to most of the time.


A reason is not the same thing as a justification.
Given. But let's not discuss semantics. Some might consider is a justification, some just a reason. We're not here to judge, are we?

Dienekes
2011-12-05, 10:00 AM
That's the difference with Doom or Magneto or any of those types, though: it isn't a delusion. Justice is an abstract metric at best, but as it stands, Doom's tyranny and self-centered murder of anyone who stands against him, his extensive mistrust of bureaucrats, and his utter ruthlessness changed a third world country into a major industrial power practically overnight. It's not even a nation that is only economically powerful because the people are driven to extremes - the people of Latveria have never been happier and are quite a bit better off than the rest of the world. Doom may only care about himself and his own ideal of magnanimity (depends on the writer), but that he's done more for the common man than nearly any hero speaks volumes. His methods may be unacceptable to polite society, but unlike most others, he actually succeeds. Whether he's sympathetic or not depends entirely on where the viewer draws the line of "acceptable" sacrifice.

If he just murdered to benefit his society, I'd still have a problem with him, but at least I could understand him. He doesn't just do that though. You'll have to explain to me exactly how sending an innocent child to Hell accomplishes anything but petty torment. Or bombing a country with the symbiote does anything but destroy the population that he's claiming to help. Or releasing the enemies of Asgard. While yes, some of his actions are the beneficial evil, he flows into petty, destructive, Joker like evil on numerous occasions and continues to make excuses for himself. So no, he is not an anti-hero. He is not sympathetic. He's just evil and delusional.


AKA, utter loons.

Exactly!

Ravens_cry
2011-12-05, 10:02 AM
Illegal :smalltongue: And since we are not allowed to get political we better not discuss this.

Agreed.


How not? If he kills someone who'd kill at least two more people he already got a positive balance. And he's not killing for revenge but for prevention, or at least tries to most of the time.

By doing his job as a blood analyst? If he wanted an even larger role in putting criminals of that kind away, he could have chosen to make his career a State Prosecutor or similar.


Given. But let's not discuss semantics. Some might consider is a justification, some just a reason. We're not here to judge, are we?
As audience, I think we have every reason to judge.

Avilan the Grey
2011-12-05, 10:12 AM
Illegal :smalltongue: And since we are not allowed to get political we better not discuss this.

I don't think we need to fall into that particular trap; it has all to do with motivations; in media, depending on motivation, people that commits these kind of crimes range all the way, from pure good (Robin Hood) to pure (but petty) evil.

I have a hard time sympathizing with these kind of people as well; that's why I hate the Fast And Furious franchise; I felt genuinely sad when the truck driver defending his truck from the "heroes" DIDN't manage to kill any of them; I would have loved the movies if it had ended with the undercover cop arresting all of them and they had gotten a long LONG jail time.

Killer Angel
2011-12-05, 10:15 AM
If he just murdered to benefit his society, I'd still have a problem with him, but at least I could understand him.

On this concept, sooner or later, someone would mention watchmen...



I have a hard time sympathizing with these kind of people as well; that's why I hate the Fast And Furious franchise;

Point Break was better on this.

Dienekes
2011-12-05, 10:19 AM
Also, if we're going by evil we enjoy watching or find interesting, how can I have forgotten to mention my favorite movie of all time? Godfather Part II.

Michael and Veto Corleone. They're calculating, their intelligent, they're always a step ahead. Watching them plan their grand mobster power plays is fascinating to experience.

On the same grounds, the cast of the Sopranos, especially Tony and Paulie.

Gensh
2011-12-05, 10:23 AM
If he just murdered to benefit his society, I'd still have a problem with him, but at least I could understand him. He doesn't just do that though. You'll have to explain to me exactly how sending an innocent child to Hell accomplishes anything but petty torment. Or bombing a country with the symbiote does anything but destroy the population that he's claiming to help. Or releasing the enemies of Asgard. While yes, some of his actions are the beneficial evil, he flows into petty, destructive, Joker like evil on numerous occasions and continues to make excuses for himself. So no, he is not an anti-hero. He is not sympathetic. He's just evil and delusional.

Bluh. There's a reason I stopped reading comics sometime during the 90s. Assuming that his core characterization hasn't been changed, which is something I'm less and less sure of considering the only thing that seems to be held sacred anymore is Uncle Ben being dead, then the reasoning for would be something along the lines of: 1) Either intimidation or leverage on someone; he can always get the child back if he really has to. 2) It depends on the situation. If he's just killing them, then he's being either really intimidating or really efficient about it depending on which version of which symbiote we're talking about. On the other hand, if he's trying to create an army of superhumans or something, then he's being particularly efficient about in in a way that's completely uncharacteristic considering his government is run by robot copies of himself. 3) On a personal level, Asgard is full of jerks. On a strategic level, Asgard (along with the other cosmic powers) is full of people who would likely stand in the way of his eventual conquest. By destabilizing the balance of power on the higher levels of the scale, he weakens his eventual enemies. As far as a combination of feelings and strategy goes, ONLY DOOM MAY WIELD COSMIC POWER. He's certainly evil and suffers from more crazy than a large number of comic characters, but he's neither foolish nor arbitrarily violent.


On this concept, sooner or later, someone would mention watchmen...

That's usually a taboo subject because no one can agree on anything.

Tengu_temp
2011-12-05, 11:24 AM
I can find a bad guy cool or funny or sympathize with him, and I can root for the lesser evil in an evil vs evil situation. However, there is nothing that is instrinctually cooler about evil characters, and a lot of them have really annoying fandoms that blow how awesome the character is out of proportion and sometimes make me like the character much less in result. Azula from Avatar is one of the most notable examples.

comicshorse
2011-12-05, 11:34 AM
Point Break was better on this.

Gotta say I found Patrick Swayzee's character utterly loathsome. Mostly it was the way he did horrendous things and then tried to paint himself as the good guy at the same time.

Ravens_cry
2011-12-05, 11:38 AM
Personally, I preferred Mai.
I like calm, levelheaded snark, which is also why I liked Raven from the Teen Titans cartoon.

INDYSTAR188
2011-12-05, 02:14 PM
"It always comes back to Aerys." That's because you didn't tell anyone about the bombs you arrogant, idiotic, bugger. And no, I don't blame you for Aerys, I blame you for everything you've done since then. You threw a child out a window because you couldn't keep it in your pants. Please, explain to me why I should feel one scrap of pity for you? Every action you've made before Brienne is from your own selfishness, arrogance, and stupidity.

To your point about Jamie, I agree with you that he's a selfish bastard throughout his whole life up until the third book (where he's starting to turn the corner). But I also believe in redemption. I think that he's on that path and thats why I root for him now as opposed to then. I want to see him turn into a hero and try to atone for his past actions (but I'm not gonna hold my breath because a) he's a Lannister and b) GRRM takes 28 1/2 years to write a novel.).

SamBurke
2011-12-05, 02:22 PM
As a child, I had a soft spot in my heart for stormtroopers.

C'mon, the poor guys were supposed to be highly trained, but a bunch of Garageband rebels mow them down like cheesecake? I felt like it was somehow bigoted of Lucas (or at least poor, poor, poor writing) to keep killing them as if they were worthless faceless mooks who meant nothing to the story and could be killed in the hundreds of thousands (Death Stars carry around 137,000 Storm Troopers, in addition to other units and operatives) without the slightest thought.

REALLY?

Weezer
2011-12-05, 02:30 PM
As a child, I had a soft spot in my heart for stormtroopers.

C'mon, the poor guys were supposed to be highly trained, but a bunch of Garageband rebels mow them down like cheesecake? I felt like it was somehow bigoted of Lucas (or at least poor, poor, poor writing) to keep killing them as if they were worthless faceless mooks who meant nothing to the story and could be killed in the hundreds of thousands (Death Stars carry around 137,000 Storm Troopers, in addition to other units and operatives) without the slightest thought.

REALLY?

I agree with you, I tend to be sympathetic to your tradtional faceless mook (assuming he/she isn't shown doing something particularly awful). The number of people slaughtered just because they were luckless enough to be chosen to guard the prison block is simply horrifying. Especially when whoever the evil guy is took power in an ostensibly legal way, that just sucks for the people who think they are following their rightful ruler and are killed in great numbers because of that.

Forum Explorer
2011-12-05, 02:36 PM
Where do Team Rocket fall on the scale? :smallamused: They just keep trying and get so close every time.

I tend to root for villians like Lex Luthor who are going up against an overpowered opponent

Dark Tira
2011-12-05, 02:40 PM
I'm always rooting for The Monarch from the Venture Brothers. Aside from the fact I find him incredibly amusing, I think that this is a situation where the antagonist is actual less of a **** than the protagonist.

Killer Angel
2011-12-05, 03:27 PM
However, there is nothing that is instrinctually cooler about evil characters, and a lot of them have really annoying fandoms that blow how awesome the character is out of proportion and sometimes make me like the character much less in result.

Are you implying that Darth Vader (IV-VI ep.) isn't cool? :smalltongue:



Or Jamie Lannister, "It always comes back to Aerys." That's because you didn't tell anyone about the bombs you arrogant, idiotic, bugger. And no, I don't blame you for Aerys, I blame you for everything you've done since then. You threw a child out a window because you couldn't keep it in your pants. Please, explain to me why I should feel one scrap of pity for you? Every action you've made before Brienne is from your own selfishness, arrogance, and stupidity.

Also the point of the Killing Joke is that it was just him. Gordon didn't crack. You can't push anyone to be an insane lunatic, the Joker and Batman were special.

But, at least, Jamie usually didn't blame someone else.
"There's no one like me. There's only me".

hamishspence
2011-12-05, 03:31 PM
Those, really, I wouldn't call "Evil". Criminals, sure, but overall not actually bad people. Ruthless, maybe, egoistical, greedy, but not evil.

What would you call such actions then?

Illegal :smalltongue: And since we are not allowed to get political we better not discuss this.

How about "in the context of fictional systems that assign alignments to acts"?

BoVD labels stealing, murdering, fraud, etc as evil.
BoED suggests that in general, any act that causes excessive, unreasonable suffering is an evil act.

Dienekes
2011-12-05, 03:33 PM
To your point about Jamie, I agree with you that he's a selfish bastard throughout his whole life up until the third book (where he's starting to turn the corner). But I also believe in redemption. I think that he's on that path and thats why I root for him now as opposed to then. I want to see him turn into a hero and try to atone for his past actions (but I'm not gonna hold my breath because a) he's a Lannister and b) GRRM takes 28 1/2 years to write a novel.).

My problem is that he hasn't shown any desire to atone. Alright he's saved Brienne that was a genuine good act. Good job, he got a sticker. He's also spurned his sister and tries to be devious to get his goals instead of just being a sword who happened to be born a Lannister. I can respect him for that. But he has never admitted what he previously did was wrong. He never apologized or felt sorry for his previous actions. He's just not taken as bloody a path as he took previously. That's not redemption, that's just not being as big an idiot as he once was. I maintain the only actual good thing he's done is save Brienne. So no, I'm not rooting for him yet, and donot feel sorry for him. Will I eventually? Maybe, as I think GRRM is paving the way for a future atonement, but as of now he's just a nasty spoiled bugger.


I'm always rooting for The Monarch from the Venture Brothers. Aside from the fact I find him incredibly amusing, I think that this is a situation where the antagonist is actual less of a **** than the protagonist.

The Monarch vs Dr Venture I don't know who to root for, as they're both pretty evil. However The Monarch has one thing that'll put me on his side every time he makes an appearance: two-ton 21.

Ravens_cry
2011-12-05, 03:51 PM
I agree with you, I tend to be sympathetic to your tradtional faceless mook (assuming he/she isn't shown doing something particularly awful). The number of people slaughtered just because they were luckless enough to be chosen to guard the prison block is simply horrifying. Especially when whoever the evil guy is took power in an ostensibly legal way, that just sucks for the people who think they are following their rightful ruler and are killed in great numbers because of that.
"Because we were just following orders" may not be the valid excuse it used to be, but yeah, Mooks, I always felt sorry for mooks. That's not even Team Evil, that's Team Scut Work while Evil Parades Around Laughing Manically.
Someone has got to feed the dragon, often literally, muck the stables, guard the walls, patrol the land.
They rarely receive much, if any characterization, they just get mowed down.
Look at the guards in Assassins Creed 2.
They were just town guardsmen.
That they kept going to work after Ezio killed dozens of them shows them to be heroic individuals in the face of a mass murderer.
Ezio may, or may not, have good reasons for what he did, but they didn't know what they were, they just knew their brethren were been slaughtered by this superhuman creature who, as far as they knew, was in conspiracy against the city.
And yet they kept coming.
How many widows created, how many families destroyed because of one psychotic man-childs revenge against those least guilty?

hamishspence
2011-12-05, 03:54 PM
That's one of the reasons I liked Death Star- because so much of it was from the point of view of the various soldiers and civilians on it.

Aotrs Commander
2011-12-05, 06:10 PM
Well I suppose I should preface this with the fact that I am Evil, and so by choice, not design... Evil to the point of denoucing life and light and becoming a Spirt-Bound skeletal Undead abomination!

Evil is cool!

Huzzah!


What I don't like about sympathetic villains is a lot of the time it doesn't work. I don't feel sympathy for villains, at any time really. I've always carried the belief that despite your background an individual has control of their actions and can choose what they make of their life, unless they are a literal slave. So hearing how some baddie had a tough childhood, or how everything conspired against them does nothing for me. If they have some sort of grand design even less so. At least the Joker acknowledges that he's a villain and doesn't dance around the issue to make himself feel better about killing things. For example Jack from ME2, yeah your childhood story is very, very sad. I will hunt down those buggers who did that too you if I could. However you also killed thousands of people many that have done nothing to you, and you are a danger to everyone around you, I'm going to take you back to prison now to serve your sentence. Dr Doom deludes himself as being just when he captures heroes and sends them to Hell, or bombs civilians with a symbiote. Sorry, no, he's as monstrous as the Joker with a veneer of self-delusion on top of it.

I essentially agree with this. I find the whole "he's just misundestood/misguided" villain shtick to be tired and frequently hypocritical. That they turn to evil because they have a bad time of it, oh boo hoo. There are people in any of the worlds who have often suffered far worse and not done so. That type of villain, to me, show a weakness of character, because they let the events traumatise them into willful ignorance, and I hate willful ignorance.

No, I think those who are best Evil are those who are by choice - the ones that know sodding well what they are doing is wrong and Evil and then they do it anyway are far more interesting. The ones who don't have an excuse, because they are trying harder and have much more strength of character.



I like to see the bad guys win occasionally (doesn't happen often enough, for the decent bad guys). Seeing Dastardly finally catch that damn pideon would be favourite...



I am an Imperial loyalist, and one of the reasons I enjoyed the Star Wars prequels was I was watching the hero (Palpatine) rise to his rightful place, and his top lackey (Anakin/Vader) stuff over all the stupid Jedi and idiot senate... I weep bitter tears over the death of Grand Admiral Thrawn (metaphorically, obviously, I don't have tear ducts...) I am most sore about the attempt by everyone ever to steal all the cool Evil guys away and give them to the rebels - apparently the bad guys in Star Wars are never allowed to keep anything nice (e.g. the futile attempt to convice everyone that Marrik Stele was a rebel sympathiser, and not the comedically inept sidekick of the Real Hero of TIE Fighter (and even if George Lucas himself tells you otherwise, that just means the rebels got to him first!), Baron Fel, the Death Stars, TIE Defenders, MissileBoats etc etc.)

(DungeonKeeper and TIE Fighter still tanks among my favourite games - and for C&C, for most of the games, I considered the GDI campaigns (and the Allies to a lesser degree) merely to be warm up for NOD (and the Soviets).)

I still give Mortal Combat Conquest extra bonus points for letting the bad guys win at the end of the series. (I know it was sort of a cliff-hanger that-never-was, but as it was never resolved, it totally counts.)



On the flip side of the scale, you have bad guys that just aren't cool or interesting: the vong in Star Wars or the Shi'Ar (and nobody is ever going to convince me the Shi'Ar are collectively nothing more than a crowd of staggeringly arrogant, mass-murdering asshats). Actually, fanatical zealots (of any stripe) also I find utterly tedious (e.g. Stargate's Ori, or Hidan from Naruto, who having now seen the Arc I find I dislike far more than any of the villains, even the lame ones from the fillers and movies).



All that said, I would like, for comics in particular, but other media as well, to see some of the bad guys suffer and lose for a change. The current media climate has the heroes repeatedly screwed over time after time after time, while the bad guys frequently don't get any worse than they used to, which (if they are very unlucky) is death (often only a temporary status) at worst.

Can we see a few of the bad guys mentally and emotionally broken for once, instead of just doing it to the heroes, please?

Devonix
2011-12-05, 07:42 PM
Megatron and the Decepticons. Yeah they are *******s but they had good reasons for starting the Cybertronian Civil War. Cybertron in most continuities was a crap place to be unless you were the uppercrust. Megatron started his whole faction as a way for the underprivilaged to get their shot at power and control over their destiny... then it went a bit too far.

Killer Angel
2011-12-06, 03:12 AM
(DungeonKeeper and TIE Fighter still tanks among my favourite games - and for C&C, for most of the games, I considered the GDI campaigns (and the Allies to a lesser degree) merely to be warm up for NOD (and the Soviets).)


If we go on games, my fav. race in starcraft is Zerg; it was so funny (although called) when Kerrigan The Queen of Blades broke the "alliance" in Brood War... :smallbiggrin:
Also, basically all WH40k's players, root for evil, in one way or another... :smalltongue:

darksolitaire
2011-12-06, 04:47 AM
Also, basically all WH40k's players, root for evil, in one way or another... :smalltongue:

Yup, because in WH40K, there are only different shades of grey, most of them quite dark.:smallbiggrin:

I have a soft spot for Death Note's Yagami Light. I hated the ending, and thought that they had made other version which ends differently because the lest episode had strange file name.:smallconfused:

I read one Batman comic recently, with Neil Gaiman as one of the writers. That one had a totally bad ass Joker ("Tonight Gotham City, tomorrow America, and the day after the world! ...Exept for France.").

thubby
2011-12-06, 04:49 AM
Nah, not really. He's closer to entirely neutral than to evil. He doesn't go around killing people for fun, I don't think he would if he could but he just doesn't give a crap most of the time. And he can be sympathetic.


considering his last act as a free vampire was to start a war that basically burned through most of europe. and the literal legions of souls he hangs onto for use as weapons and fuel, i cant see him being anything other than evil.

setting that aside, he was chomping at the bit to butcher those police that were A) not a threat to him, B)only doing their job, and C) of no impediment whatsoever.
and, well, this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyD2p-uWQsU&feature=related).

Devonix
2011-12-06, 06:34 AM
I agree with you, I tend to be sympathetic to your tradtional faceless mook (assuming he/she isn't shown doing something particularly awful). The number of people slaughtered just because they were luckless enough to be chosen to guard the prison block is simply horrifying. Especially when whoever the evil guy is took power in an ostensibly legal way, that just sucks for the people who think they are following their rightful ruler and are killed in great numbers because of that.

This is the exact reason he made up the clones and battledroids as mooks for the prequel trillogy. So that the fans could stop complaining about the heroes killing them in the thousands.

That doesn't fix the problem however it just adds new ones with the heroes having no problem propegating a slave race and gives us lesser stake in the battles since ehh they are just clones makes the battles lose tension. And also lets not forget that droids are quite nearly a sentient species themselves.

Luckily the Clone Wars Animated series actually gives clones personality and really some episodes make you feel bad for not caring because they are just clones. I mean recently there was a Jedi general who used them like his own personal toy soldiers where they eventually rebelled and had to kill him.

Devonix
2011-12-06, 06:42 AM
Bluh. There's a reason I stopped reading comics sometime during the 90s. Assuming that his core characterization hasn't been changed, which is something I'm less and less sure of considering the only thing that seems to be held sacred anymore is Uncle Ben being dead, then the reasoning for would be something along the lines of: 1) Either intimidation or leverage on someone; he can always get the child back if he really has to. 2) It depends on the situation. If he's just killing them, then he's being either really intimidating or really efficient about it depending on which version of which symbiote we're talking about. On the other hand, if he's trying to create an army of superhumans or something, then he's being particularly efficient about in in a way that's completely uncharacteristic considering his government is run by robot copies of himself. 3) On a personal level, Asgard is full of jerks. On a strategic level, Asgard (along with the other cosmic powers) is full of people who would likely stand in the way of his eventual conquest. By destabilizing the balance of power on the higher levels of the scale, he weakens his eventual enemies. As far as a combination of feelings and strategy goes, ONLY DOOM MAY WIELD COSMIC POWER. He's certainly evil and suffers from more crazy than a large number of comic characters, but he's neither foolish nor arbitrarily violent.



That's usually a taboo subject because no one can agree on anything.

The thing is the most important thing, the ONLY important thing to Doom is his ego. He doesn't care about his people he just likes to say he does to feel better. He'd kill a thousand of them if it would further his goals not careing how it affects them and he's allways been like this.

The people's opinion of him in his society has allways varried from writer to writer but his opinion of them has remained constant. They are there to feed his ego and nothing more.

Killer Angel
2011-12-06, 06:44 AM
I believe that another case of an evil character who's loved / appreciated by a good portion of the audience, could be Belkar.
Certainly, there are various positions on the subject...

grolim
2011-12-06, 08:15 AM
I agree with you, I tend to be sympathetic to your tradtional faceless mook (assuming he/she isn't shown doing something particularly awful). The number of people slaughtered just because they were luckless enough to be chosen to guard the prison block is simply horrifying. Especially when whoever the evil guy is took power in an ostensibly legal way, that just sucks for the people who think they are following their rightful ruler and are killed in great numbers because of that.

Maybe, but in terms of the people on the Death Star not so much. I haven't read any of the books but when the legal and rightful ruler you serve starts obliterating whole populated planets of peaceful people......legitimate and rightful go out the window and if you still serve out of anything but fear you are part of it. Also as far as legitimate goes....he just came out of hyperspace and blew up an entire civilization, no trial, nothing. Definitely cements an entire regime firmly into the evil camp. Unless you could find a way to make a convincing argument for said mooks to believe that every being on that planet, down to the babies born that day were deserving of such a fate or it was in any way justifiable. Don't see that happening.
Following order just wont get you out of that one, you get covered with that karma backlash as well as the ones who did it.

Kato
2011-12-06, 09:41 AM
considering his last act as a free vampire was to start a war that basically burned through most of europe. and the literal legions of souls he hangs onto for use as weapons and fuel, i cant see him being anything other than evil.

setting that aside, he was chomping at the bit to butcher those police that were A) not a threat to him, B)only doing their job, and C) of no impediment whatsoever.
and, well, this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyD2p-uWQsU&feature=related).

Well, the first part refers to soemthing he did long ago. I take into account a person can change over time.
Oh, becuse no 'hero' who was falsely attacked by the plive ever killed them? Of course, the Blues brothers for example are the incarnation of evil because they slaughtered dozens of police men in a giant car accident...
No, the thing is... that is a problem that's so often ignored I have ahard time holding it against Alucard. No, it was not a nice thing to do but if there is something he is not, it is subtle. Yeah, he could have killed them less gruesome but that's part of the story. He had to get past them and they wouldn't have let him walk off, or Seras for that matter. Yes, he enjoyed killing them far too much (same with Ripp... oh, poor Ripp...) but if he was so evil he could have done so much worse to so much more innocent people.
Also, he tries to keep Anderson from you-know-what which would in no way further any evil goals of his. Or being obedient to the Hellsings. (do we even know how, if at all the keep him in check? Not really)
He is gruesome and reckless, a bit like an immortal Dexter (except for the reckless) to come back to this but he decides for the more goodish site... compared to... burn London down with an army of vampires.

INDYSTAR188
2011-12-06, 10:57 AM
I believe that another case of an evil character who's loved / appreciated by a good portion of the audience, could be Belkar.
Certainly, there are various positions on the subject...

Agreed. I don't like him as a character (I.E. who he is) but in the context that it's a comic with no real intended seriousness involved I suppose it's ok to like him. At the very least I always smile when he's standing on top of all those dead goblins and hobgoblins screaming "I am a sexy, shoeless god of war!".

thubby
2011-12-06, 12:21 PM
Oh, becuse no 'hero' who was falsely attacked by the plive ever killed them? Of course, the Blues brothers for example are the incarnation of evil because they slaughtered dozens of police men in a giant car accident...

the blues brothers are legitimately threatened by police officers with guns. alucard isn't, at all.
besides, the blues brothers didn't actually do anything to the police in that scene. they were fleeing and the police's own lack of competent driving created the accident.


No, the thing is... that is a problem that's so often ignored I have ahard time holding it against Alucard. No, it was not a nice thing to do but if there is something he is not, it is subtle. Yeah, he could have killed them less gruesome but that's part of the story. He had to get past them and they wouldn't have let him walk off, or Seras for that matter.

he can walk through walls, fly, and is immune to every weapon known to man. they could no more stop him from fleeing than an ant could stop you.


Yes, he enjoyed killing them far too much (same with Ripp... oh, poor Ripp...) but if he was so evil he could have done so much worse to so much more innocent people.
now you're giving him credit for not doing something? he's a monster on a leash.


Also, he tries to keep Anderson from you-know-what which would in no way further any evil goals of his. Or being obedient to the Hellsings. (do we even know how, if at all the keep him in check? Not really)
he's protective of his friend...? lawful evil is lawful evil.

the hows are vague, his gloves have something to do with it, but a control method definitely exists. He has control art restrictions, at least 1 of which is only accessible at the hellsing leader's command. and, as mentioned, he couldnt do anything to the police until integra said so.

jseah
2011-12-06, 03:59 PM
Here's one:

Yuno from the anime, Future Diary.

Evil? Sure. If you know the spoilers that is.
Her parents locked her in a cage and abused her. Was that the reason why she's crazy? Hell no. She got out and locked her *parents* in and starved them to death in that cage.

Ends up travelling back through time, killing her past self (and her parents, again) and replacing her.

As well as innumerable times where she kills people off-hand simply because they posed a threat to main character. A minor threat.
No waiting to talk, no pointing a gun and smirking, no sense of the dramatic. Oh no, not Yuno. She just shoots you or puts an ax through your skull with nary a word and a crazy grin.
"Praise me some more, Yuki! I can win against anything! Ahahahaha!"

You can probably tell that her presence means characters die by her hand in the dozens.
Takes more than one literal deus ex machina to resolve her problem. (I count at least three, one of which is her own)

As well as utter obsession and total disregard for anything other than the main character. Anything, no matter how far beyond the moral event horizon, no matter how questionable, she will do it for him.


She's really the only reason why I even watch that series. Nothing is better than that smile to... well, bring a smile to your face. =)

Devonix
2011-12-07, 08:26 AM
the blues brothers are legitimately threatened by police officers with guns. alucard isn't, at all.
besides, the blues brothers didn't actually do anything to the police in that scene. they were fleeing and the police's own lack of competent driving created the accident.



he can walk through walls, fly, and is immune to every weapon known to man. they could no more stop him from fleeing than an ant could stop you.


now you're giving him credit for not doing something? he's a monster on a leash.


he's protective of his friend...? lawful evil is lawful evil.

the hows are vague, his gloves have something to do with it, but a control method definitely exists. He has control art restrictions, at least 1 of which is only accessible at the hellsing leader's command. and, as mentioned, he couldnt do anything to the police until integra said so.

Even Hitler had friends. Having people that you care about and want to protect. Risking your life to save a baby from a burning building is a good act but it wouldn't make you not evil.

Killer Angel
2011-12-07, 11:49 AM
Risking your life to save a baby from a burning building is a good act but it wouldn't make you not evil.

Though it can be a step toward redemption... :smallwink:

ScionoftheVoid
2011-12-07, 01:04 PM
Though it can be a step toward redemption... :smallwink:

A single step does not a path make, is the feeling I'm getting here.

Devonix
2011-12-07, 02:28 PM
A single step does not a path make, is the feeling I'm getting here.

Pretty much what I'm saying right there. Even an evil person can have a day where they feel like doing a good deed. Maby they think that it will make up for what they did Sometimes the monster lets the victim go just to make himself feel better about who he is.

Kato
2011-12-07, 02:51 PM
the hows are vague, his gloves have something to do with it, but a control method definitely exists. He has control art restrictions, at least 1 of which is only accessible at the hellsing leader's command. and, as mentioned, he couldnt do anything to the police until integra said so.
To not further the discussion but on that one point... we don't know it. Yes, we knows he takes off his gloves when he unleashes his stronger powers. And we know he listens to Integra. But at no point was shown she could hold hi back if he wanted to do something else. For all we know with certainty he might just be honor bound (and please nobody start a discussion whether honor is a good or neutral trait) to her without any real leash and it's all just fun and games to him to obey Integra.


Even Hitler had friends. Having people that you care about and want to protect. Risking your life to save a baby from a burning building is a good act but it wouldn't make you not evil.
It makes you less evil. Someone who has no feelings towards any person, no regard for life whatsoever and no regrets for his actions is not more evil than someone who does have friends he cares for, who happens to do good when he sees fit for whatever reason or who may even just do evil in your view but from his own perspective does right?

SoC175
2011-12-07, 03:17 PM
How many widows created, how many families destroyed because of one psychotic man-childs revenge against those least guilty?Well, in this contest the price goes to Kratos. Yes, the deities were pricks, but he kept killed them because of his own petty vengeance any consequenses be damned.

How mayn thousands died in the tsunamies unleashed by killing Poseidon? How many will die after the sky going dark due to the murder of Helios? How many will die the most horrible deaths due to the plagues released from the corpse of Hermes (who was also the deity of medicine)?

And the worst thing is that it was all his own damn fault fault. Ares "tricked" him into slaying his wife and daughter with no real trick at all. He simply transported them to a city Kratos was sacking and when he proceeded to slaughter the women and children without even really looking at them, his family was among them. If Ares hadn't placed his familiy among them, Kratos would have murdered the women and children without any guilt and continued to do so in the next city he conquers.

So we have a CE serial killer on a path of vengeance for which he's willing to kill hundred thousands of people as collateral damage.

Devonix
2011-12-07, 04:30 PM
To not further the discussion but on that one point... we don't know it. Yes, we knows he takes off his gloves when he unleashes his stronger powers. And we know he listens to Integra. But at no point was shown she could hold hi back if he wanted to do something else. For all we know with certainty he might just be honor bound (and please nobody start a discussion whether honor is a good or neutral trait) to her without any real leash and it's all just fun and games to him to obey Integra.


It makes you less evil. Someone who has no feelings towards any person, no regard for life whatsoever and no regrets for his actions is not more evil than someone who does have friends he cares for, who happens to do good when he sees fit for whatever reason or who may even just do evil in your view but from his own perspective does right?

It doesn't make him less evil it makes him less psycotic. you can be evil and not the random crazy kind of evil.

Kato
2011-12-07, 04:44 PM
It doesn't make him less evil it makes him less psycotic. you can be evil and not the random crazy kind of evil.

Than what defines "evil"? And is there something like "more or less evil"?

Devonix
2011-12-07, 05:16 PM
Than what defines "evil"? And is there something like "more or less evil"?

You can be evil and simply not have the desire to randomly start a killing spree. Evil doesn't mean crazy.

You can be evil and care about people. aka even villans love their momies.

Ravens_cry
2011-12-07, 10:57 PM
So we have a CE serial killer on a path of vengeance for which he's willing to kill hundred thousands of people as collateral damage.
That's pretty much exactly how it went. (http://thepunchlineismachismo.com/archives/84)

Kato
2011-12-08, 03:51 AM
You can be evil and simply not have the desire to randomly start a killing spree. Evil doesn't mean crazy.

You can be evil and care about people. aka even villans love their momies.

Doesn't answer my question. What makes a person evil (in your view)?

thubby
2011-12-08, 05:17 AM
Doesn't answer my question. What makes a person evil (in your view)?

cant speak for anyone else, but i'd say its someone who consistently and unapolagetically attempts evil acts.

"but what makes an act evil?"
glad you asked.
an evil act is one that needlessly causes the suffering of a person or people.*

*note: this does not exclude acts outside this definition, it is simply the broadest category that is unequivocally true*

Avilan the Grey
2011-12-08, 08:07 AM
To me an evil act is an act where you knowingly cause suffering to innocents or use retribution way out of proportion to the crime.

Kato
2011-12-08, 10:09 AM
cant speak for anyone else
Well, obviously it's something that depends on a person's perspective.



an evil act is one that needlessly causes the suffering of a person or people.*

*note: this does not exclude acts outside this definition, it is simply the broadest category that is unequivocally true*
Ah, ah, ah, but if you say "needlessly" that means if the act does serve a need it may not be evil anymore.
While at the same time if I do something deliberately that without evil intent still causes people to get hurt, e.g. causing a accident is an evil act.
Sorry, friend, you're making it way too simple with that definition.


To me an evil act is an act where you knowingly cause suffering to innocents or use retribution way out of proportion to the crime.
That's better but still something that's up to discussion when we get to innocents getting hurt to further a good goal...


But the thread is about something else, sorry for digressing. It's of course up to personal preference and morals.

thubby
2011-12-08, 10:58 AM
Ah, ah, ah, but if you say "needlessly" that means if the act does serve a need it may not be evil anymore.

yes, there is nothing wrong with amputating a limb if it is needed to save the patient. or killing someone in self defense.


While at the same time if I do something deliberately that without evil intent still causes people to get hurt, e.g. causing a accident is an evil act.
Sorry, friend, you're making it way too simple with that definition..

yes, yes it is.
but as no one consistently and unapologetically causes accidents, its a non-issue.


killer angel:Well the excessive self defense exists, and it's a crime...
legality=/=morality, but if its excessive then it wouldnt be necessary then, would it? :smallamused:

Killer Angel
2011-12-08, 11:08 AM
yes, there is nothing wrong with amputating a limb if it is needed to save the patient. or killing someone in self defense.


Well the excessive self defense exists, and it's a crime...

And this reminds me something that is somehow on topic. In many fictions, we have the good guys suffer from something horrible, and this gives 'em an "excuse" to serve the bad guys with almost unlimited vengeful justice. Pretty funny, from a moral PoV.

Kato
2011-12-08, 03:51 PM
yes, there is nothing wrong with amputating a limb if it is needed to save the patient. or killing someone in self defense.


Ah, but what if I need to kill someone to keep him from hurting other people and it's not directly in self defense. Like, if I went back in time and killed Hitler? Or if I knew the new Hitler and killed him? And then were is the border between that and what e.g. Dexter does (without the torture)

I guess there are much more plausible topics but I'd rather not get a warning for getting into politics though the topic calls for it. Maybe we should let others comment on the original subject again and if need be discuss in private?

bladedSmoke
2011-12-08, 06:39 PM
Ah, but what if I need to kill someone to keep him from hurting other people and it's not directly in self defense. Like, if I went back in time and killed Hitler? Or if I knew the new Hitler and killed him? And then were is the border between that and what e.g. Dexter does (without the torture)

When did Dexter torture people? Am I missing something? I've seen all the seasons except season 6 and I honestly can't remember him doing this (unless you count the cut to the cheek, but I wouldn't really classify that as 'torture').

comicshorse
2011-12-08, 07:20 PM
When did Dexter torture people? Am I missing something? I've seen all the seasons except season 6 and I honestly can't remember him doing this (unless you count the cut to the cheek, but I wouldn't really classify that as 'torture').

He tortures people in the novels the TV series is based off

Das Platyvark
2011-12-08, 08:12 PM
Mr. Croup and Mr. Vandemar are some of my favorite people in fiction.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-12-08, 08:36 PM
Regina Mills. From Once Upon a Time. In her Fairytale persona she was a complete monster, but in her modern day persona she is a manipulating ...., but she basically crying openly when her adoptive son is thought to have died in the mine.

My mom thinks it's a case of "show, don't tell" and the writers are telling, but not showing.

It's either that, or she's meant to be a sympathetic character who turned goth and evil when her... was it boyfriend or husband? I think it was her boyfriend or husband, died.

Either way, she's not the villain. Someone else is. :smallwink:

Devonix
2011-12-08, 10:14 PM
My mom thinks it's a case of "show, don't tell" and the writers are telling, but not showing.

It's either that, or she's meant to be a sympathetic character who turned goth and evil when her... was it boyfriend or husband? I think it was her boyfriend or husband, died.

Either way, she's not the villain. Someone else is. :smallwink:

She may not be THE Villan, but she most certainly is A villan.

Weezer
2011-12-08, 10:35 PM
Mr. Croup and Mr. Vandemar are some of my favorite people in fiction.

Mmm, gotta love them. Undeniably evil, but so awesome on so many levels.

Kato
2011-12-09, 03:12 AM
When did Dexter torture people? Am I missing something? I've seen all the seasons except season 6 and I honestly can't remember him doing this (unless you count the cut to the cheek, but I wouldn't really classify that as 'torture').

It might not be torture in the closest sense but jis kills at the beginning of the show were rather more than a stab to the chest. I think I recall a chain saw for example.

Killer Angel
2011-12-11, 09:24 AM
It might not be torture in the closest sense but jis kills at the beginning of the show were rather more than a stab to the chest. I think I recall a chain saw for example.

Indeed. The process usually doesn't last long, but it's done on still living peoples, so...

On the subject "rooting for the (sometime) lesser evil", I think that we have plenty of examples in the noir and pulp literature / films (Pulp Fiction, anyone?)