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BelGareth
2011-12-06, 01:33 AM
So I am playing (or applying for a game) and I wanted to use the Artificer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/artificer#TOC-Metamagic-Science), but to my chagrin upon reading the class it seemed to lack a certain amount of refinement was missing. Not to mention some basic core mechanics.

So to my Homebrew heart did the Pathfinder Artificer plead to me.

Here is my attempt at fixing the class. My attempt is not to make a Pathfinder version of the Artificer, I believe there is no point and it's good as is.

But I fell in love with the mechanics of the devices for this class and decided to make an entirely different (but similar) class.

Enter the MagiTechnician. Capable of being played in Core Fantasy games, Magi Tech and Steam punk alike.

Below is the Pathfinder version which is easily converted over to 3.5e version by changing the skills.

Credit to Adamant Entertainment (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment) for making the class, I took a lot of the class and refining, changing, and adding things until you see the class below.

BelGareth
2011-12-06, 01:34 AM
The MagiTechnician

Class skills (4 + Int Modifier per level): The MagiTechnician's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Bluff(Cha), Craft (Int), Concentration(Con), Disable Device (Dex), Fly (Dex), Heal(Wis), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Open Lock (Dex), Perception(Wis), Profession(Wis), Search (Int), Spellcraft (Int) and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Alignment: Any

Starting Age: As Cleric

Starting Wealth: As Cleric

Hit Dice: d8


LevelBABFort SaveRef SaveWill SaveSpecial0-1st2nd3rd4th5th6th
1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Elbow grease, Weird science, Trapfinding, Minor Prototypes 4 1 - - - - -
2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 Item Creation, Scribe Scroll 4 2 - - - - -
3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 Brew Potion 4 3 - - - - -
4th +3 +4 +1 +4 Craft Wondrous Item 4 3 1 - - - -
5th +3 +4 +1 +4 Salvage, Craft Arms and Armor 4 4 2 - - - -
6th +4 +5 +2 +5 MetaMagic Science 4 4 3 - - - -
7th +5 +5 +2 +5 Craft Wand 4 4 3 1 - - -
8th +6/+1 +6 +2 +6 Improved Weird Science 4 4 4 2 - - -
9th +6/+1 +6 +3 +6 Craft Rod 4 4 4 3 - - -
10th +7/+2 +7 +3 +7 Weird Insight 4 4 4 3 1 - -
11th +8/+3 +7 +3 +7 Improved MetaMagic Science 4 4 4 4 2 - -
12th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Craft Staff 4 4 4 4 3 - -
13th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Greater Weird Science 4 4 4 4 3 1 -
14th +10/+5 +9 +4 +9 Forge Ring 4 4 4 4 4 2 -
15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +5 +9 4 4 4 4 4 3 -
16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Expert Crafter 4 4 4 4 4 3 1
17th +13/+8/+3 +10 +5 +10 Advanced Algorithm 4 4 4 4 4 4 2
18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 4 4 4 4 4 4 3
19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Complex Spatial Physics 4 4 4 4 4 4 3
20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Master Crafter 4 4 4 4 4 4 4



Proficiencies: MagiTechnicians are proficient with all simple weapons, light armor and shields (except Tower Shields).

Trapfinding: The MagiTechnician is capable of finding and disarming mechanical traps, this is identical to the rogue ability of the same name with the exception that it only works with mechanical traps and devices.

Elbow Grease (Ex): The MagiTechnician adds half his class level (minimum 1) to all Craft checks as a competence bonus.

Weird Science: A MagiTechnician is not a spellcaster in the true sense of the word. He can create mechanical devices that emulate spells, he uses his class level as his caster level when using his devices and can only have a certain amount of devices active at one time.

To create a device a MagiTechnician must have a Charisma score of 10 + the level of the spell. The Difficulty Class of a save (if any) against a MagiTechnician's device is 10 + spell level + the MagiTechnician's Charisma modifier.

The MagiTechnician may emulate any spell from the wizard and cleric spell list.

To create a device the MagiTechnician must spend 4 hours per spell level, if a MagiTechnician creates more than his alloted device amount of a spell level (refer to table) one of his other devices of the same level becomes inert, chosen by the MagiTechnician upon creating the new device. The device weighs *1 lb / spell level and can be any form the MagiTechnician wishes.

The MagiTechnician carries odds and ends with him much like a spell component pouch and does not need to keep track of anything to make his devices. A MagiTechnician can craft his devices on the road or a little at a time, he must track how much time he has spent on the device until he reaches the required amount.

The use of a device requires the MagiTechnician to use his hands, press levers and push buttons. Therefore all devices require somatic components and suffer the usual spell failure chance in armor except when wearing light armor.

Any Device that emulates a spell that uses spell components also uses a similar component that is comparable to the item. A gun Device may use 'cartridges' of energy or something similar. If the spell requires expensive components then the Device also requires a similar component worth the same amount of gold.

All devices can be used only a certain amount of time reliably, a device may be used 2/day without incident. After a device has been used 2/day a MagiTechnician may attempt to use his device again by attempting a Use Magic Decice check with a DC equal to 20 + (2 x spell level) and rising by 5 every additional time the device is used. A failed roll means that the device breaks down and may not be used again for the day.

Devices act as inert pieces of equipment in the hands of other people, even a Use Magic Device check results in nothing, all the devices are keyed specificaly to the MagiTechnician who created them.

A MagiTechnician may add metamagic feats to his devices when he creates them, this raises the device level slot used by the appropriate amount of the feat, the affective spell level of the device must still be of a level that the MagiTechnician can create.

*For small creatures reduce weight by half

Minor Prototypes: The MagiTechnician can create a number of smaller devices called Minor Prototypes, these are in all ways the same as his normal Devices but are 0 level spells, he may have a maxiumum of 4 active Minor Prototypes at one time. They take only 1 hour to make and weigh half a pound*. They can be used as many times during a day as needed. For every other purpose they act as the MagiTechnicians Weird Science Devices.

*For small creatures reduce weight by half

Item Creation (Ex): At second level, a MagiTechnicianís invention ability expands to include the creation of true magic items, even if the MagiTechnician does not have access to the prerequisite spells. The MagiTechnician must make a successful Use Magic Device check (DC 20 + caster level) to emulate each spell normally required to create the item.

Bonus Feats: A MagiTechnician gains every item creation feat as a bonus feat. He gets Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat at 2nd level, Brew Potion at 3rd level, Craft Wondrous Item at 4th level, Craft Magic Arms and Armor at 5th level, Craft Wand at 7th level, Craft Rod at 9th level, Craft Staff at 12th level, and Forge Ring at 14th level

Salvage (Ex): At 5th level, a MagiTechnician gains the ability to salvage the gold piece value from a magic item and use those funds to create another magic item. The MagiTechnician must spend a day with the item, and he must also have the appropriate item creation feat for the item he is salvaging. After one day, the item is destroyed and the MagiTechnician gains the gp value it took to create the item from salvaging the raw materials that can be used for other items. This value cannot be spent as gold, it may only be used in the creation of another magic item.

MetaMagic Science: At 6th level, an MagiTechnician gains the ability to apply a metamagic feat he knows to a spell trigger item (such as a wand). Using this ability expends additional charges from the item equal to the number of effective spell levels the metamagic feat would add to a spell.

Improved Weird Science: At 8th level, a MagiTechnician uses his caster level for any spell trigger items he activates (Such as a wand).

Weird Insight (Su): The MagiTechnician is at a different level of understanding than other beings, he sees things as what they can be, not what it is. A MagiTechnician can use Legend Lore without components at will to identify devices of a mechanical nature (whether magical or not).

Improved MetaMagic Science: At 11th level, a MagiTechnician gains the ability to apply any one metamagic feat he knows to a spell completion item (a scroll, for example). He must have the appropriate item creation feat for the spell completion item he is using. The DC for the Use Magic Device check is equal to 20 + (3 times the modified level of the spell). He may use this ability a number of times per day equal to his Charisma modifier.

Greater Weird Science At 13th level, a MagiTechnician gains the ability to recharge spell trigger items with charges. He may sacrifice any amount of uses from his devices for an equal amount of spell levels to invest into the spell trigger item at a 2:1 ratio. The MagiTechnician must be of the same or higher level than the caster level of the item.

For example -
John sacrifices 2 uses from his Inferno gun (Scorching ray, level 2) giving him an affective 4 spell levels investing it into his wand of Magic missile(CL 1) he regains 2 charges.
If john wanted to recharge his Wand of Cure moderate wounds he would only gain 1 charge.

Expert Crafter: The MagiTechnician is so skilled at crafting magical items, he is able to craft items with less time. The MagiTechnician only requires 1 day per 1500 gp instead of the usual 1000gp per day when crafting magic items.

Advanced Algorithm: The MagiTechnician learns the art of creating a device without the need of the usual time constraint, he may 1/day create a device in 30 minutes instead. The device otherwise works normally and follows the same restrictions.

Complex Spatial Physics: The MagiTechnician understands his devices to such a degree that he can modify the mechanisms to ignore the rigors of use. He may 1/day ignore a failure of use from a device and use it normally, after which to use the item the MagiTechnician must attempt a use magic device check to activate it.

Master Crafter: The MagiTechnician has reached the pinnacle of Magical engineering. He needs only to spend 1 day per 2000gp worth on creating a magic item, he may also recharge spell trigger items with a 1:1 ratio.

Optional Rules

When a device breaks down for the day you may, as an optional rule, roll on the follwing chart to see if a disatrous affect takes place. After all combining magic and mechanics is a dangerous thing!


%affect
01The Device Breaks down in a catastrophic explosion dealing 1d6/spell level to anyone within 5ft/spell level including the MagiTechnician. The energy is untyped and there is no save.
02-10The Device works randomly roll as if in a wild magic zone.
11-23Device is broken and must be scraped and a new one made.
24-74Device is down for the day.
75-86Works properly and then breaks down for the day.
87-91Device works but sucks 2 charges from another randomly chosen device.
92-99Device explodes in a shower of bright light, no damage but the MagiTechnician is blinded for 1d4 rounds. No save. The MagiTechnician must make a new device.
100The Device implodes causing a major Wild Surge (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Wild_Magic_(3.5e_Variant_Rule)) (wildzone magic) The MagiTechnician must make a new device



Sample MagiTechnician

Thoragrin (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=350903)
M LN Dwarf Artificer, Level 4, Init +2, HP 38/38, Speed 20
AC 16, Touch 12, Flat-footed 14, Fort +10, Ref +6, Will +8, Base Attack Bonus 3
MW Mace, Heavy +5 (1d8 + 1, x2)
Thoragrin's Inferno Rifle (As the spell scorching ray) (2/day) +5 touch (4d6 fire, x2)
ForgeMasters Bracers of Fire (As the spell Burning hands) (2/day, DC 14 Ref for half) 15 ft cone (4d4 fire, -)
+1 Studded Leather (+4 Armor, +2 Dex)
Abilities Str 13, Dex 15, Con 18, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 16
Condition None


Notes

Thoughts, comments, concerns?


Edits

12/5/11 - added " for which he has ranks in." to exemplar.
12/6/11 - added All devices require somatic component's
12/6/11 - removed all jack of all trades tree, added clause for multiple spells in one device. replaced with bonus metamagic feats.
12/7/11 - dropped uses per day from 3 to 2, cleaned up some text.
12/7/11 - removed bonus metamagic feats, rewrote weird devices, added minor prototypes, added mechanical trapfinding, added perception to class skills, made elbow grease a competence bonus, added clarifyin text.
1/5/12 - removed "must have the appropriate creation feat" from Metamagic Science. As written, you couldn't use it until 7th when you get craft wand.

BelGareth
2011-12-06, 01:49 AM
Epic Version pending

Bulwer
2011-12-07, 08:18 AM
I'm interested to see what more experienced homebrewers think of this.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-07, 02:53 PM
My first thought when I looked at the class was "Cleric chassis". Alright.

My second thought was "Disable Device is Dex-based in Pathfinder?!"

In 3.5, all classes that have Disable Device as a class skill have the Trapfinding class feature. There are no exceptions to this rule, save the Savant from Dragon Compendium (he has "all skills as class skills")

Elbow Grease- You have a second period here. I'm sorry to nitpick but it really draws my eye, so I figured you'd want to take it out. Also, I don't know about Pathfinder (which is why I'm hesitant to review this class) but in 3.5, you can make all Craft checks untrained anyway.

Weird Science: Interesting. A flat DC for others to use, instead of one that scales with the imbuement's level, strikes me as a bit too powerful, but at the same time, it's only an extra +6 anyway, and generally speaking UMD is one of those skills you either max or you don't bother taking, so I'm sure it's not going to be that relevant.

The main problem here is that you absolutely removed any MAD the artificer hoped to have in 3.5. In 3.5, the artificer's imbuements are based on Int, and of course the UMD skill is based on Cha. You took that away. Now the only reason an artificer has to need Int is his Craft skill, but he gets a +10 bonus to all Craft checks by level 20 anyway, so...yeah. You have made one of the most powerful classes in the game SAD. I am heavily opposed to this, but it is of course your class.

The last line confuses me. "The device takes up the increased spell slot and time". First of all, does this mean that the device removes the requirement for an increased spell slot for metamagic? If that's the case, you can maximize and empower your sixth level imbuements without even having access to a 7th level slot! Crazy.

The second part is more troubling though. By "time" do you mean that you must spend an extra 4 hours per increased spell level crafting the device, or do you mean that the device increases its time required to activate its spell, as a spontaneous caster who applies metamagic?

Item Creation: Scribe Scroll should come at first level. There is no reason for a wizard to be able to scribe scrolls before a class that is based entirely around magic item creation. I realize that the Item Creation class feature does not come into play until 2nd level, but these feats should not be part of that class feature anyway. You should just have a separate class feature called "Bonus Item Creation Feats", and in the table, you should list each feat by name at the level it is gained, as the Eberron artificer does.

You should also state whether you can take 10 or take 20 (or neither) on the Craft check made to emulate spells. (Personally I think this should be a Use Magic Device check, but I can see the arguments for the Craft skill being used for it as well)

Salvage: Before you get a rash of complaints about how this makes no sense (the limitation on not spending the gold), I'd suggest you add a line about how you are removing raw materials that are only useful for crafting. (I know it's pretty heavily implied, but it's always better to just state it)

Metamagic Science: Staple Artificer ability. It's broken beyond all belief, but if you didn't have it, I would be disappointed. Moving on.

Bonus Feat: This...comes really late. I'm surprised. Generally speaking, bonus feats start as early as they can, and then progress by the same amount. I know you don't want to frontload the class, but perhaps at least start it at 7th level, that way you can say "It's been there since the first half of the class, I didn't just slip it in to fill up some dead levels!"

Weird Insight: This needs the Sp tag.

Improved Metamagic Science: Here we go. Free Persist Spells to shapechange, Free Maximizes to meteor swarm, etc. This is not your fault at all, but...dear Asmodeus, WotC, what were you thinking?

Greater Weird Science: Okay, now this is really interesting. Fantastic fluff, very useful crunch-wise, and gives you a real reason to invest in both the Craft and UMD skills equally. I like it a lot.

Expert Crafter: I have a better solution here, so please, hear me out. You can make the Progress by Week equal to GP, and the Progress by day equal to SP, instead of Progress by Week equal to SP, and Progress by Day equal to CP. This will speed up the process much more quickly. On the one hand, it's giving a very solid boon to an already overpowered class, but on the other hand, time is a valuable resource to the whole team, and a character who is wasting it in order to use his class features shouldn't waste so much, especially at higher levels.

Advanced Algorithm: At first I was like :smalleek:, but then I realized it only applies to devices, not to any magic item. Phew! That's actually a really decent ability that will help add the flavorful devices to his repetoire, and discourage him from focusing solely on rings and wands.

Complex Spatial Physics: Good name, good ability.

Master Crafter: A solid capstone, assuming you don't take my advice about Expert Crafter.

All in all, a good class! I'd be interested to see how it plays.

BelGareth
2011-12-07, 04:04 PM
My first thought when I looked at the class was "Cleric chassis". Alright.

My second thought was "Disable Device is Dex-based in Pathfinder?!"
Yes


In 3.5, all classes that have Disable Device as a class skill have the Trapfinding class feature. There are no exceptions to this rule, save the Savant from Dragon Compendium (he has "all skills as class skills")

I was debating whether or not to give the class the trapfinding class feature, it makes sense if you think about it.


Elbow Grease- You have a second period here. I'm sorry to nitpick but it really draws my eye, so I figured you'd want to take it out. Also, I don't know about Pathfinder (which is why I'm hesitant to review this class) but in 3.5, you can make all Craft checks untrained anyway.

Fixed, good point.


Weird Science: Interesting. A flat DC for others to use, instead of one that scales with the imbuement's level, strikes me as a bit too powerful, but at the same time, it's only an extra +6 anyway, and generally speaking UMD is one of those skills you either max or you don't bother taking, so I'm sure it's not going to be that relevant.

The main problem here is that you absolutely removed any MAD the artificer hoped to have in 3.5. In 3.5, the artificer's imbuements are based on Int, and of course the UMD skill is based on Cha. You took that away. Now the only reason an artificer has to need Int is his Craft skill, but he gets a +10 bonus to all Craft checks by level 20 anyway, so...yeah. You have made one of the most powerful classes in the game SAD. I am heavily opposed to this, but it is of course your class.

The last line confuses me. "The device takes up the increased spell slot and time". First of all, does this mean that the device removes the requirement for an increased spell slot for metamagic? If that's the case, you can maximize and empower your sixth level imbuements without even having access to a 7th level slot! Crazy.

The second part is more troubling though. By "time" do you mean that you must spend an extra 4 hours per increased spell level crafting the device, or do you mean that the device increases its time required to activate its spell, as a spontaneous caster who applies metamagic?

This was meant so if someone wants to make a quickened Magic missile device, it would take up a 5th level device slot. The time was in regards to the amount of time to make, for the same example it would take 20 hours to make.


Item Creation: Scribe Scroll should come at first level. There is no reason for a wizard to be able to scribe scrolls before a class that is based entirely around magic item creation. I realize that the Item Creation class feature does not come into play until 2nd level, but these feats should not be part of that class feature anyway. You should just have a separate class feature called "Bonus Item Creation Feats", and in the table, you should list each feat by name at the level it is gained, as the Eberron artificer does.

You should also state whether you can take 10 or take 20 (or neither) on the Craft check made to emulate spells. (Personally I think this should be a Use Magic Device check, but I can see the arguments for the Craft skill being used for it as well)

Agreed, will change it up to this.


Salvage: Before you get a rash of complaints about how this makes no sense (the limitation on not spending the gold), I'd suggest you add a line about how you are removing raw materials that are only useful for crafting. (I know it's pretty heavily implied, but it's always better to just state it)

Clarifying text is always helpful, done.


Bonus Feat: This...comes really late. I'm surprised. Generally speaking, bonus feats start as early as they can, and then progress by the same amount. I know you don't want to frontload the class, but perhaps at least start it at 7th level, that way you can say "It's been there since the first half of the class, I didn't just slip it in to fill up some dead levels!"

You got me! Will add it in earlier levels.


Weird Insight: This needs the Sp tag.

Done.


Greater Weird Science: Okay, now this is really interesting. Fantastic fluff, very useful crunch-wise, and gives you a real reason to invest in both the Craft and UMD skills equally. I like it a lot.

Awesome, Thanks!


Expert Crafter: I have a better solution here, so please, hear me out. You can make the Progress by Week equal to GP, and the Progress by day equal to SP, instead of Progress by Week equal to SP, and Progress by Day equal to CP. This will speed up the process much more quickly. On the one hand, it's giving a very solid boon to an already overpowered class, but on the other hand, time is a valuable resource to the whole team, and a character who is wasting it in order to use his class features shouldn't waste so much, especially at higher levels.

That does sound better, I will change it to this.


Advanced Algorithm: At first I was like :smalleek:, but then I realized it only applies to devices, not to any magic item. Phew! That's actually a really decent ability that will help add the flavorful devices to his repetoire, and discourage him from focusing solely on rings and wands.

Complex Spatial Physics: Good name, good ability.

Master Crafter: A solid capstone, assuming you don't take my advice about Expert Crafter.

All in all, a good class! I'd be interested to see how it plays.
Awesome, Thanks so much for critiquing it, I appreciate it!

jiriku
2011-12-07, 09:15 PM
Overview: Overall, this looks like a huge buff on the basic artificer. Since the artificer was already one of the most powerful classes in 3.5, I'm not sure whether that's a good thing. Certainly, you're building a class that's suitable only for optimized play with top-tier classes. In case you were aiming for something with a more modest balance point, I'll call out the strongest abilities below for adjustment.

I like the magitech style in your descriptions, but the class mechanics don't really convey it. In particular, the devices you create seem a little too generalized to be treated as anything other than portable spell effects by the players. I'll get into that with a little more detail later.

In general, it feels a little busy. While it's desirable to avoid dead levels, I'm a believer that no level at which you gain additional spells known or spells per day is really a dead level. With that in mind, I think you needn't feel pressured to put 20+ class features on the table; let the spells carry some of the weight.

Class Skills: With neither Perception nor Trapfinding to support your Disable Device skill, it's going to be useful primarily for picking locks and breaking simple machines. If you're ok with that, that's cool, but I felt I should put that out there.

Elbow Grease: I'd recommend making this a competence bonus, to limit stacking potential. In general, it's good practice to give any bonus of +5 or more to a d20 check a descriptor, in order to prevent abusive bonus-stacking.

Weird Science: Firstly, a nitpick. You state that the magitechnician is not a spellcaster, but then go on to describe his effects as spells, grant him bonus metamagic feats which he can use with these spells, and note that he has a caster level. That sure sounds like a spellcaster to me.

A concern I have here is that while it's not stated, it's strongly implied that the magitechnician is not casting spells, but emulating their effects with nonmagical devices. This would mean that he does not pay xp or gp costs, nor require normal components or focuses. Perhaps this was not your intent, in which case, a little clarification might be in order.

Moving on to the meat of the feature, I see a few problematic issues. Firstly, the table implies that the magitechnician can use a maximum of four spell effects per day of each level, but the Weird Science ability grants him unlimited uses of 0th level spells, and allows other characters to use his devices as well with an easy skill check. Further, nothing prevents a magitechnician from creating dozens of devices, each of which can be used 2/day with no failure chance. I'm not understanding exactly how the Weird Science abilities are supposed to interact with the spells per day on the class table.

I'm very concerned about allowing other characters to use the magitech devices. This is a means of a) granting spellcasting ability to nonspellcasters without any form of gp or xp cost, b) applying personal-range buffs to others with a simple DC 15 skill check, and c) exploding the character's per-day resources by creating endless numbers of devices for others to use. All three of this issues are highly abusable.

From a realism standpoint, I'd encourage you to make the weight and cost of the items less tidy. Massive death-ray guns, clockwork armor, giant portals that spawn deadly mechano-arachnoid walkers... all have a convenient 0 weight, 0 gp cost, and can be made from common household materials. To my mind, this effectively demotes the device to being a mere spell component, a fluff item of no importance, and makes the magitechnician play much more like a spellcaster than a device-wielder.

The stacking of multiple spell effects onto a single object is ill-defined. For example, what kind of action is required to activate such a device, especially if the spells contained within have different casting times? It's also highly open to abuse. For example, a quickened maximized empowered twinned energy admixtured combust spell is still a 2nd-level spell for all purposes. A 16th level magitechnician can cast three of them with a single swift action if he builds the proper device (this is about 200 fire damage with no save). The ability to cast 6-12 spells per round, even 1st and 2nd level spells, is highly abusable.

Also, as written, the ability to apply any metamagic feat to the device when created means that the magitechnician can technically Heighten a spell to 6th level even as a 1st-level character. This was probably not intended.

Metamagic Science: Nitpick of phrasing. This should expend charges equal to "the spell level adjustment of the metamagic feat", not the effective spell levels. Metamagic feats (other than Heighten Spell and Sanctum Spell) cannot increase a spell's effective level.

Weird Insight: You'll need to supplement this effect with additional description, because identify has no effect when used on nonmagical devices.

Greater Weird Science: At first blush, this feature allows you to spend daily uses of your items (which are free and come in theoretically unlimited quantity) to recharge your wands and staves (which cost gp and xp). So, essentially, you can create for zero cost a thing that normally costs gold and experience. I strongly recommend against this. Canny players will simply create a series of charged items with their best spells, create a whole bunch of your conviently weightless slotless items, and cast arbitrarily large numbers of spells from their items without ever running out of charges.

Expert Crafter, Master Crafter: You should explicitly state that you are referring to the crafting times for magic items here, not mundane items created with the Craft skill. These are highly useful abilities, BTW. Good decision.

Improved Metamagic Science: Without a limit on uses per day, this ability might get a little out of hand at higher levels. In higher-level play, the gp cost of creating scrolls is pretty minimal, and a character might use this ability much more often per day than you're expecting. Also, your phrasing makes it unclear whether the character is limited to applying only a single metamagic feat to the scroll, or can apply any and all feats that he knows. I'd recommend the former interpretation rather than the latter.

Advanced Algorithm: A nice perk for a magitechnician who accidently breaks a key item or needs an unusual combination of spells in a hurry. I like it.

Complex Spatial Physics: I'm not sure this is really all that useful though. By this level, the character has probably created enough devices so that he can use his effects an arbitrarily large number of times per day with no failure chance. It's a rare situation where I'd expect this feature ever to see use.

Optional Device Breakdown Rules: These are interesting and entertaining, but it's a little nonsensical that a device should be able to detonate or implode and still be in good working order on the following day. I'd suggest that spectacular failures should result in the destruction of the device. It's not really a hardship, after all, since the magitechnician can simply make another one for free with a few hours' effort.

Suggestions: First off, I'm not sure where you're attempting to steer the class, balance-wise. If you're looking for something no more powerful than the published Tier 1 classes, you need to close all the loopholes that allow unlimited spellcasting, unlimited free metamagic, and massive spells per round. I'd also like to see you expand a little on the features that make the magitechnician different from the artificer, especially the tech devices.

BelGareth
2011-12-07, 11:10 PM
Thanks so much for critiquing my class, I greatly appreciate it.

I won't quote your response and reply in kind to every little thing you said, as that would take WAY too long. Needless to say you and (NeoSeraphi) inspired me to change a certain amount of things.

So I decided to completely rewrite the weird science ability as the following:

Weird Science: A MagiTechnician is not a spellcaster in the true sense of the word. He can create mechanical devices that emulate spells, he uses his class level as his caster level when using his devices and can only have a certain amount of devices active at one time.

To create a device a MagiTechnician must have a Charisma score of 10 + the level of the spell. The Difficulty Class of a save (if any) against a MagiTechnician's device is 10 + spell level + the MagiTechnician's Charisma modifier.

The MagiTechnician may emulate any spell from the wizards and clerics spell list.

To create a device the MagiTechnician must spend 4 hours per spell level, if a MagiTechnician creates more than his alloted device amount of a spell level (refer to table) one of his other devices of the same level becomes inert, chosen by the MagiTechnician upon creating the new device. The device weighs 1 lb / spell level and can be any form the MagiTechnician wishes.

The MagiTechnician carries odds and ends with him much like a spell component pouch and does not need to keep track of anything to make his devices. A MagiTechnician can craft his devices on the road or a little at a time, he must track how much time he has spent on the device until he reaches the required amount.

The use of a device requires the MagiTechnician to use his hands, press levers and push buttons. Therefore all devices require somatic components and suffer the usual spell failure chance in armor except in light armor.

All devices can be used only a certain amount of time reliably, a device may be used 2/day without incident. After a device has been used 2/day a MagiTechnician may attempt to use his device again by attempting a Use Magic Decice check with a DC equal to 20 + (2 * spell level) and rising by 5 every additional time the device is used. A failed roll means that the device breaks down and may not be used again for the day.

Devices act as inert pieces of equipment in the hands of other people, even a Use Magic Device check results in nothing, all the devices are keyed specificaly to the MagiTechnician who created them.

A MagiTechnician may add metamagic feats to his devices when he creates them, this raises the device level slot used by the appropriate amount of the feat, the affective spell level of the device must still be of a level that the MagiTechnician can create.


Hopefully this clarifies several things that were wrong, perceived differently etc...

My Intent was to make a Tier 2 class, so It wasn't working out.

I think the crux of the problem was taking a class and trying to fix it while making it my own. Ah well...

I changed the devices so as to be not usable by others, added wording to make the metamagic feats act as they should normally with regular spells, removed multiple spells on one device.

I think its easier to read and smoother mechanically.

Once again, Thanks so much for commenting!

jiriku
2011-12-09, 10:07 PM
Your new version represents a big step forward. I really like what you've done with Weird Science - the limitation on quantities of devices, with only a soft, UMD-based limit on uses per day of each device, creates an interesting dynamic of being able to use downtime to slowly morph your spells known or trade a versatile spell selection for the ability to spam a particular effect repeatedly. A few other things I'll note:

Weird Science items now use spell components as ammunition! That's a nice touch, amusing and very effective.
Complex Spatial Physics is much more useful now.
Minor Prototypes makes sense and should work well. Consider, however, the possibility of a character making a minor prototype of, say, a sanctum grease or sanctum magic missile (both of which are functionally 0-level spells outside the character's sanctum).
Greater Weird Science quotes a 2:1 exchange ratio, but the example shown uses a 1:1 exchange ratio.

This looks like a fun, interesting class. I think you're going to have a good time playing it.

BelGareth
2011-12-11, 11:25 AM
Your new version represents a big step forward. I really like what you've done with Weird Science - the limitation on quantities of devices, with only a soft, UMD-based limit on uses per day of each device, creates an interesting dynamic of being able to use downtime to slowly morph your spells known or trade a versatile spell selection for the ability to spam a particular effect repeatedly. A few other things I'll note:

Weird Science items now use spell components as ammunition! That's a nice touch, amusing and very effective.
Complex Spatial Physics is much more useful now.
Minor Prototypes makes sense and should work well. Consider, however, the possibility of a character making a minor prototype of, say, a sanctum grease or sanctum magic missile (both of which are functionally 0-level spells outside the character's sanctum).
Greater Weird Science quotes a 2:1 exchange ratio, but the example shown uses a 1:1 exchange ratio.

This looks like a fun, interesting class. I think you're going to have a good time playing it.

Thanks so much for you PEACHing, you helped out a lot.

Fixed the ratio issue, and will add some clarifying text to Minor Prototypes.

Once again, I appreciate your critiquing.

periscope69
2011-12-16, 12:17 PM
I have a question about weird science.

When a device is activated is it a spell, spell like, supernatural, or extraordinary ability for the purposes of interacting with counterspelling, dispelling, and/or anti-magic fields?

BelGareth
2011-12-16, 12:29 PM
I have a question about weird science.

When a device is activated is it a spell, spell like, supernatural, or extraordinary ability for the purposes of interacting with counterspelling, dispelling, and/or anti-magic fields?

Great question, it is a spell.