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Darth_Versity
2011-12-06, 04:53 PM
So in a recent game my neutral-evil aligned party ended up on the Heroic Plains of Ysgard. Now this was not my fault as they randomly rolled for another plane while on the Astral Plane.

Now the CE Dread Necromancer player proceeds to piss off a high lvl Paladin npc and challenges him to a duel. I knew his plan in an instant. He wanted to kill the npc in a solo fight to reap the xp. He's done it before.

The paladin agrees to allow him time to prepare for the duel and so they seperate. He then proceeds to cast Unhallow so as to have an advantage when he unleashed his undead from his bag of holding.

I then declared that an avatar of Kord appeared, taking offence that someone would dare try to defile his plane and proceeded to squish the offending necromancer.

Now my player complained that I was picking on him but I simply replied that a good aligned god who would know that killing someone on his plane was not permanant (due to the true ressurection effect) would take a seriously dim view of someone desecrating his landscape and would intervene.

So my question is simple. Was my punishment to harsh, especially considering that all he lost from it was a day in character?

DonutBoy12321
2011-12-06, 04:56 PM
Isn't there a rule among deities about intervening with mortals?

Zeborazor
2011-12-06, 04:58 PM
Nope. When you're on the plane of a god of battle I would avoid defiling it. And an Avatar showing up, which I believe wander around the plane, is perfectly acceptable.

Reluctance
2011-12-06, 05:04 PM
The player got a True Rez out of the deal and they're still crying unfairness? It was a touch heavy handed of you, but it's not like the player lost anything except for a shot at free XP.

P.S: If the fight is significantly easier than normal - say, if the opponent gives the PC time to buff up without laying on a significant buff suite themselves - the encounter should give at most half XP. DMG, P. 39 specifically mentions what happens when an encounter is situationally more or less difficult than raw CR would indicate.

P.P.S: If the character is creating undead out of opponents he slays on Ysgard, that's going to piss off some very powerful people. A deux ex machina smackdown is precisely the sort of warning he should get. First offense is a warning, and he gets to be raised by the plane. After that, someone escorts him to the Outlands and squishes him. Or just deposits him in one of the lower planes directly.

Story Time
2011-12-06, 05:12 PM
What the explanation of the original post tells me, or us, is that the Player was using a trick that they thought would work. Then the Player chose to complain when the trick didn't work. Assuming all of the information appropriate to determine the decision has been revealed I don't really think it's unfair. Unfair would be the Player's character being slain, annihilated, and prevented from reincarnating in any way.

However, I do think some...sympathy and understanding being shown toward that Player is appropriate. Perhaps they are upset that they were thoughtless enough to do something so foolish on such a plane of existence. So...aside the fairness of the situation for the character, it does seem that the Player requires some emotional consolation. This should not take the form of something that would benefit the character.

skycycle blues
2011-12-06, 05:20 PM
If I were the DM, I would ask the player at least three times what he's trying to do and if he thinks it is a good idea. If after being asked three times, he still thinks it is a good idea and goes through with it, I would have had Kord(or an aspect) destroy him for desecrating the plane.

Your player tried to do something stupid that he ought not have been able to get away with and you didn't let him do it. Nothing unfair about that.

Rubik
2011-12-06, 05:31 PM
If I were the DM, I would ask the player at least three times what he's trying to do and if he thinks it is a good idea. If after being asked three times, he still thinks it is a good idea and goes through with it, I would have had Kord(or an aspect) destroy him for desecrating the plane.

Your player tried to do something stupid that he ought not have been able to get away with and you didn't let him do it. Nothing unfair about that.In this case he was in Ysgard, so he comes back the next day.

I hope his party got to him so his corpse isn't looted.

Mando Knight
2011-12-06, 05:34 PM
If an evil jerk takes a dump on your lawn and makes zombies out of the buried remains of your dearly departed pets from years past, wouldn't you be ticked off?

Also, Unhallow and undead creation spells may literally not work on good-aligned planes. Any Good deity worth worship would have a home plane that impedes [Evil] magic, and his home is likely strongly good-aligned. Furthermore, Unhallow has a 24-hour casting time. No Paladin is going to let a necromancer prepare by spending a day defiling a good-aligned plane.

Now, a better way of resolving it might have been the Paladin spending the day in prayer. Know what happens when a holy warrior prays to his god (of war!) for the power to defeat someone who is desecrating the god's very home? Either Solars start showing up or the holy warrior is granted a similar level of unbelievable power. You do not get away with this kind of thing.

Zale
2011-12-06, 05:40 PM
Does Kord have some kind of vendetta with the Undead?

Because if he allowed the evil characters to enter, why are undead any worse?

Howler Dagger
2011-12-06, 05:46 PM
I think he has the vendetta with people defiling his plane. Seriously, you would think that he would think that he was being treaty too kindly, with armies of solars not appearing and or the paladin guy killing him on the spot.

Zale
2011-12-06, 05:53 PM
Wait- Ys-whatever is that Valhalla-ish plane right?

Chaotic Good? Everyone fights and comes back to life the next day?

Oh. Then the necro can't complain. At least Kord didn't banish him before he could pop back to life.

Mando Knight
2011-12-06, 05:54 PM
Does Kord have some kind of vendetta with the Undead?

Because if he allowed the evil characters to enter, why are undead any worse?
You're on Ysgard, a plane favored by some good gods. You cast Unhallow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/unhallow.htm). This is essentially casting "cover their front lawn with crap." Even though Kord is CN, he probably doesn't take well to having some random jerk pop up and desecrate his front lawn.

Alabenson
2011-12-06, 05:58 PM
You're on Ysgard, a plane favored by some good gods. You cast Unhallow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/unhallow.htm). This is essentially casting "cover their front lawn with crap." Even though Kord is CN, he probably doesn't take well to having some random jerk pop up and desecrate his front lawn.

Minor point of order; Kord is CG, not CN.
Which means he'd be even more irritated that someone was casting unhallow in his backyard. Especially since the necromancer was doing it to give himself an undue advantage during a duel (which runs directly counter to Kord's dogma as I understand it).

Zale
2011-12-06, 05:59 PM
You're on Ysgard, a plane favored by some good gods. You cast Unhallow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/unhallow.htm). This is essentially casting "cover their front lawn with crap." Even though Kord is CN, he probably doesn't take well to having some random jerk pop up and desecrate his front lawn.

Why did Kord wait until the Necro pulled undead out of his bag of holding, then?

Perhaps a straw-that-broke-the-camel's-back thing?

At least he didn't summon evil outsiders...

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-12-06, 06:01 PM
Yea, it's not the challenge that he had a problem with. Considering the locale, that's par for course and to be expected.

It's the casting of Unhallow which pisses him off. Also, cheating in a one-on-one duel (by bringing in allies) would rather piss him off.

You agreed to a one-on-one duel. Then you bring in an ally. Duel null and void, proceed to curb-stomp.

He should feel lucky that he was allowed to True Res. He could've just gotten dropped off in Limbo.

killem2
2011-12-06, 06:07 PM
It depends.

Did you already have a plan in motion to stop this fight from happening, or did you roll for it? You said you knew he did it before, was this motivation to make sure it didn't happen again?

Fair is subjective. Sure the DM can do what they like, but if the player was directed into believing that he was going to get to fight this paladin, got his spells ready, and then its taken away, you in a way robbed him of his way of RPing.

Now if he was just cheating the system, that's a bit different.

Mando Knight
2011-12-06, 06:15 PM
Minor point of order; Kord is CG, not CN.

This is why Know (Religion) is a skill. I can barely keep track of any deities that aren't within a step of LG, honestly...

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-12-06, 06:17 PM
It depends.

Did you already have a plan in motion to stop this fight from happening, or did you roll for it? You said you knew he did it before, was this motivation to make sure it didn't happen again?

Fair is subjective. Sure the DM can do what they like, but if the player was directed into believing that he was going to get to fight this paladin, got his spells ready, and then its taken away, you in a way robbed him of his way of RPing.

Now if he was just cheating the system, that's a bit different.

If he had just dueled the Paladin, he would've probably gotten away with it. But he cheated... that's the problem. Between the Unhallow and the 'allies appearing out of nowhere'... he violated the terms of the duel. On a plane dedicated to dueling. What the **** do you think is GOING to happen when you do that?

MesiDoomstalker
2011-12-06, 06:50 PM
I'd make sure you tell the player, out of character, (or in if you want to use big-booming-god voice) why he got curbstomped by Kord's aspect. Mainly, what others above me have said. He wen't against the doctrine of the resident god AND tried to defile said god's backyard. You don't do that and come out unscathed.

Stubbed Tongue
2011-12-06, 06:53 PM
Since it's a Chaotic plane I would say no Chaotic God should have an issue with things being a little different or even chaotic. I would have allowed the unhallow and even had a group of onlookers laugh at the necromancer.

I would have had the paladin sunder the bag of holding though. Because that isn't a fair fight...bringing in allies.

Howler Dagger
2011-12-06, 06:56 PM
Since it's a Chaotic Good/Neutral plane I would say every Chaotic Good God should have an issue with defiling a plane of good with evil.

Fixed it for you.

Stubbed Tongue
2011-12-06, 07:00 PM
I tried to fix something that didn't need fixing.


If Kord's aspect would be so hurt and threatened by a mortal then why let him in at all? Isn't that the very REASON the Plains of Ida exist...to better your skill. You can't get better fighting the same thing all the time.

If anything the paladin was the one cheated. He lawfully accepted a duel and had it taken from him by an avatar.

MesiDoomstalker
2011-12-06, 07:06 PM
If Kord's aspect would be so hurt and threatened by a mortal than why let him in at all? Isn't that the very REASON the fields exist...to better your skill. you can't get better fighting the same thing all the time.

Dieties are not all powerful in D&D. They do have limited ability to sense reality. If Kord was too far away from the party's entry point, he wouldn't even know they had entered his domain unless they said his name. I also believe that unless the diety in question is a paladin, they don't have an innate ability to detect alignments either. Its not so much fighting and getting better or being threatened by the player. Its dirty fighting (which is against Kords Dogma) and trying to infuse pure evil energy into a Good-aligned plane.

Jade Dragon
2011-12-06, 07:10 PM
If anything the paladin was the one cheated. He lawfully accepted a duel and had it taken from him by an avatar.

You seriously think a paladin asked Kord for direct interference?

Stubbed Tongue
2011-12-06, 07:12 PM
Dieties are not all powerful in D&D. They do have limited ability to sense reality. If Kord was too far away from the party's entry point, he wouldn't even know they had entered his domain unless they said his name. I also believe that unless the diety in question is a paladin, they don't have an innate ability to detect alignments either. Its not so much fighting and getting better or being threatened by the player. Its dirty fighting (which is against Kords Dogma) and trying to infuse pure evil energy into a Good-aligned plane.
Hmmm, I see your point. I think perhaps dispelling the unhallow and letting the fight continue would have made the most sense. Or even letting it go on unchanged. That's what I would have had the avatar do.

Oh well, everyone DMs different. In either case the player shouldn't feel cheated he lost nothing but some time as others have mentioned.

Stubbed Tongue
2011-12-06, 07:14 PM
You seriously think a paladin asked Kord for direct interference?
No I don't. That's exactly my point.

MesiDoomstalker
2011-12-06, 07:16 PM
No I don't. That's exactly my point.

So the Paladin cheated because a being of far greater strength intervened without the conesent of either party? How is that cheating?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-12-06, 07:16 PM
If anything the paladin was the one cheated. He lawfully accepted a duel and had it taken from him by an avatar.

I believe the implication was that the Paladin was indeed ready to fight the duel, and further gave his opponent time to prepare (honorable indeed). If you schedule a duel with someone and aren't able to fight it because they're killed by an un-involved third party (the Avatar had no real favoritism, but rather went against a violation of the plane itself), you're not cheating. You're just unable to fight them, since they're already dead.

The Avatar stepped in when the Necromancer defiled the plane, and also when he effectively cheated in the duel: time for "preparation" is, in all traditional forms of dueling that we have in our world, a time to practice, hone your skills, and prepare your mind. It is not a time to warp the battlefield to your advantage, nor to prepare it for your X dozen allies who were hitherto unseen. A duel is one vs. one in a fair arena, or it is not really a duel.

Considering that and the fact that unhallow was cast in the home plane of a Chaotic Good deity, I feel the PC got off rather lightly.

Stubbed Tongue
2011-12-06, 07:21 PM
I believe the implication was that the Paladin was indeed ready to fight the duel, and further gave his opponent time to prepare (honorable indeed). If you schedule a duel with someone and aren't able to fight it because they're killed by an un-involved third party (the Avatar had no real favoritism, but rather went against a violation of the plane itself), you're not cheating. You're just unable to fight them, since they're already dead.

The Avatar stepped in when the Necromancer defiled the plane, and also when he effectively cheated in the duel: time for "preparation" is, in all traditional forms of dueling that we have in our world, a time to practice, hone your skills, and prepare your mind. It is not a time to warp the battlefield to your advantage, nor to prepare it for your X dozen allies who were hitherto unseen. A duel is one vs. one in a fair arena, or it is not really a duel.

Considering that and the fact that unhallow was cast in the home plane of a Chaotic Good deity, I feel the PC got off rather lightly.Yes this poster summed it up nicely for me.

I wrote that the paladin WAS cheated. Not that the paladin himself HAD cheated. I have no idea what is your native tongue so of course I'm not trying to offend. Just clarifying.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-12-06, 07:23 PM
I wrote that the paladin WAS cheated. Not that the paladin himself HAD cheated. I have no idea what is your native tongue so of course I'm not trying to offend. Just clarifying.

Eh. Easy mistake to make.

If anything the paladin was the one cheated. He lawfully accepted a duel and had it taken from him by an avatar.

If anything the paladin was the one *who* cheated. He lawfully accepted a duel and had it taken from him by an avatar.

It's extremely easy to insert that "who" in there automatically. I did so at first.

If anything the paladin was the one who was cheated would have made your meaning far more apparent, but that's neither here nor there. :smallbiggrin:

Stubbed Tongue
2011-12-06, 07:25 PM
Eh. Easy mistake to make.

If anything the paladin was the one cheated. He lawfully accepted a duel and had it taken from him by an avatar.

If anything the paladin was the one *who* cheated. He lawfully accepted a duel and had it taken from him by an avatar.

It's extremely easy to insert that "who" in there automatically. I did so at first.

If anything the paladin was the one who was cheated would have made your meaning far more apparent, but that's neither here nor there. :smallbiggrin:Yes, but....I don't talk like that. LOL.

Emmerask
2011-12-06, 07:30 PM
Actions have consequences... casting unhallow in a good gods backyard ranks pretty high on the stupid things you should not do list.
I say you let him go pretty easily and he should not complain that his stupid actions only mildly inconvenienced him.

Zeborazor
2011-12-06, 07:32 PM
I would have un-named him.

Mutant Sheep
2011-12-06, 07:35 PM
I hope his party didn't get to him so his corpse wasn't looted.

Fixed it for you.:smallwink:

Personally I'd take a big xp penalty from that idiot who runs around casting unhallow at random NPC paladins on a Good aligned plane. But that's just my "dude, you just **** all over that guys birdcage." response.:smallbiggrin:

Frosty
2011-12-06, 10:29 PM
This is why Know (Religion) is a skill. I can barely keep track of any deities that aren't within a step of LG, honestly...Siglyn needs to be a Paladin of Cayden Cailean, but then she'd have 5 wings and only wear blue ribbons as her outfit. :smallwink:

Darth_Versity
2011-12-07, 03:53 AM
Just to clarify, he hadn't actually unleashed his undead yet. He was panning too do so once the fight started, which was scheduled for the next day. I had Kord appear while he was beggining the casting of Unhallow.

The funny thing is that he is now telling me its not fair as when he gets up at the start of the next session the Paladin will be waiting and he doesn't stand a chance.

Little does he know that i've had an inevitable that has been hunting the party because of their evil acts kidnap his body to try and lure the others into a trap. :smallamused:

Killer Angel
2011-12-07, 07:17 AM
mmm...
While you had all the reasons to smack him down, I can see his feeling of "unfairness".
Ysgard is an infinite plain, structured on 3 infinite layers: even if the plane is the home of various gods, it's unusual that someone will notice everything.
If the house's owner is relaxing in the porch, probably he won't notice the guy in the backyard that pees on his salad. (edit: This is me, trying to imagine the player's mental process)

Even if we take this reasoning for good, something nasty happening to him was to be expected. Maybe a high level cleric could have sensed the desecration, sending (in a matter of few hours) a squad of 8-12 inquiring Valkyries. Let see what the other players think about this.
At the end of the day, the whole Ysgard suddenly would be a dangerous place for all the group.

JadePhoenix
2011-12-07, 07:37 AM
You, my friend, are a good DM.
You solved the issue well, the player felt cheated and even though you knew you were right you came here for advice.
Yes, you are right. The scenario makes sense. Your player shouldn't be complaining.
What I'd do, if he is a repeat offender, is make the paladin kill him and sunder some of his magical items. Players only grow careful when they experience loss. Padded sumo... is another edition. :smalltongue:

Viktyr Gehrig
2011-12-07, 08:36 AM
The funny thing is that he is now telling me its not fair as when he gets up at the start of the next session the Paladin will be waiting and he doesn't stand a chance.

It's not fair that he's going to lose the duel he initiated for no reason, because he isn't going to be allowed to cheat, on a plane in which there are no consequences for losing said duel?

Buy him a pacifier before your next session. If he's still complaining after that, try dipping it in whiskey first.

killem2
2011-12-07, 03:47 PM
As a new DM, I would just like to know what is wrong with him wanting to fight the Paladin? (Aside from any story line problems that NEED the npc alive)

Talya
2011-12-07, 03:57 PM
Oh god.

A guy going by a forum moniker starting with "Darth" asks what amounts to...

"Perhaps you feel you're being treated unfairly?"


Just don't alter any deals. :smallwink:

JadePhoenix
2011-12-07, 04:22 PM
As a new DM, I would just like to know what is wrong with him wanting to fight the Paladin? (Aside from any story line problems that NEED the npc alive)

The problem is mainly his metagaming. He doesn't want the fight -- he wants the XP. Big difference.
Also, he is trying to use evil spells on a champion of good in a plane of good. That's not exactly a problem, that's just a bit dumb.

Darth_Versity
2011-12-07, 04:31 PM
Oh god.

A guy going by a forum moniker starting with "Darth" asks what amounts to...

"Perhaps you feel you're being treated unfairly?"


Just don't alter any deals. :smallwink:


OMG, please let me sig this!

JaronK
2011-12-07, 04:37 PM
I actually think this was unfair.

Ysgard is a plane that's all about battle. This includes evil people battling there. The rules of the duel did not disallow the use of preparatory spellcasting, nor the use of evil spells. If anything, the Paladin would want a chance to smite an evil guy. Nothing here should have attracted the attention of the god of the realm... is he seriously expected to show up every time an evil spell is cast? That's ridiculous. By comparison, imagine if your players attacked the hells, and when a Paladin in the party tried to cast a good spell Asmoedeus showed up and smote him.

JaronK

Alefiend
2011-12-07, 04:58 PM
Oh god.

A guy going by a forum moniker starting with "Darth" asks what amounts to...

"Perhaps you feel you're being treated unfairly?"


Just don't alter any deals. :smallwink:

I think I love you now. :smallbiggrin:

Lord Il Palazzo
2011-12-07, 04:59 PM
I actually think this was unfair.

Ysgard is a plane that's all about battle. This includes evil people battling there. The rules of the duel did not disallow the use of preparatory spellcasting, nor the use of evil spells. If anything, the Paladin would want a chance to smite an evil guy. Nothing here should have attracted the attention of the god of the realm... is he seriously expected to show up every time an evil spell is cast? That's ridiculous. By comparison, imagine if your players attacked the hells, and when a Paladin in the party tried to cast a good spell Asmoedeus showed up and smote him.

JaronKAs has been previously discussed, the problem wasn't "the use of preparatory spellcasting" it was the fact that the character tried to unhallow a plane that it, by definition, good. If two strangers decided to duel in your front yard and one decided to "prepare" for the duel by messing with your landscaping in a manner that is specifically offensive to you, I feel like you'd want to rough the guy up a bit too.

Doug Lampert
2011-12-07, 05:24 PM
The problem is mainly his metagaming. He doesn't want the fight -- he wants the XP. Big difference.
Also, he is trying to use evil spells on a champion of good in a plane of good. That's not exactly a problem, that's just a bit dumb.

Why would there be ANY XP? Seriously, the duel doesn't advance the plot, remove an obstacle, or even seriously inconvienence the loser.

When there is nothing at stake there is no XP award. You get XP for overcoming challenges, there's no real challenge here.

Rubik
2011-12-07, 05:27 PM
I actually think this was unfair.

Ysgard is a plane that's all about battle. This includes evil people battling there. The rules of the duel did not disallow the use of preparatory spellcasting, nor the use of evil spells. If anything, the Paladin would want a chance to smite an evil guy. Nothing here should have attracted the attention of the god of the realm... is he seriously expected to show up every time an evil spell is cast? That's ridiculous. By comparison, imagine if your players attacked the hells, and when a Paladin in the party tried to cast a good spell Asmoedeus showed up and smote him.

JaronKFor the first time ever, I think I'll have to disagree with you, JaronK. If it'd been ANY Evil spell (like Deathwatch? WTH?) then it might not have been quite so bad, but he's literally Desecrating the ground made of Good (and Chaos). This seems like it might just tick The Powers That Be off to the point where they'd come in and execute the perpetrator (if he didn't respawn the next day, I'd imagine something less "severe" would be in order; consider this a heavy-handed warning).

What'd be fun is if he could recall where his soul went after he wakes up. Tortured for a day that feels like decades as a mindless [insert petitioner type here]? Maybe he'll consider changing his tune.

Or maybe he'll become an undead abomination to avoid that fate. Either/or.

killem2
2011-12-07, 06:00 PM
The problem is mainly his metagaming. He doesn't want the fight -- he wants the XP. Big difference.
Also, he is trying to use evil spells on a champion of good in a plane of good. That's not exactly a problem, that's just a bit dumb.

I guess I'm confused. If the CR is balanced, how does this different than anyone else xp for completing a dungeon or beating an orc down?

Sure the exp would be more. Unless, the issue is, a necro can with out a sweat destroy a paladin?

ko_sct
2011-12-07, 06:50 PM
I guess I'm confused. If the CR is balanced, how does this different than anyone else xp for completing a dungeon or beating an orc down?

Sure the exp would be more. Unless, the issue is, a necro can with out a sweat destroy a paladin?

Well, let's say you need to get a letter from an orc, you can kill him, giving you the xp and the letter. You can also convince him to surrender, giving you the xp and the letter. But if you convince him to surrender and get both the xp and the letter, you cant just give him a weapon and then kill him to get some more xp.

Thats the way this fight seem to be, it's not a challenge and doesn't make you progress.

Now, you could easely argue that a fight should provide xp, even if it does not advance the story, simply because you take a risk or expand ressources. But in this case, there's no risk and no advancement AND it give a player more xp than the rest of the group (something some DMs dislike)

Anyway, thats the way I see it.


Also, personnaly I do think that divine intervention is probably a bit unfair, but I guess it does depend on the lvl of the pcs.

Frosty
2011-12-07, 06:59 PM
This is why I don't keep track of exp. I just tell my players when they level. Luckily in pathfinder crafting doesn't take exp.

Emmerask
2011-12-07, 07:02 PM
I actually think this was unfair.

Ysgard is a plane that's all about battle. This includes evil people battling there. The rules of the duel did not disallow the use of preparatory spellcasting, nor the use of evil spells. If anything, the Paladin would want a chance to smite an evil guy. Nothing here should have attracted the attention of the god of the realm... is he seriously expected to show up every time an evil spell is cast? That's ridiculous. By comparison, imagine if your players attacked the hells, and when a Paladin in the party tried to cast a good spell Asmoedeus showed up and smote him.

JaronK

Try to hallow hell and watch what happens :smallbiggrin:
The problem is not the [evil] spell as others have pointed out, its very specifically the unhallow which would be akin to going into your neighbors garden, taking a crap there and afterwards building a glass showcase around it so that it stays as permanently as possible...
I don´t think the neighbors will be very happy about that stunt :smallwink:

Zale
2011-12-07, 07:27 PM
Still, He kinda dropped a God on the guy.

A horde of pissed celestials would have been sufficient.

A deity seems.. excessive. Like using a nuke to clean your dirty toilet.

But eh. No permanent harm done. He could be a hamster now.


Ohh a Necromantic hamster would be adorable.

JaronK
2011-12-07, 07:42 PM
For the first time ever, I think I'll have to disagree with you, JaronK. If it'd been ANY Evil spell (like Deathwatch? WTH?) then it might not have been quite so bad, but he's literally Desecrating the ground made of Good (and Chaos).

See, I'd believe that if this were in the 7 heavens or something. But this is Ysgard, plane of battle. It feels to me like this is such a small thing that the gods (well, the primary one anyway) wouldn't really consider this important... at most I'd expect any deity who notices to see that area as a good target for more forces of evil and good to battle over. It's not like it's a permanent effect (the effects seem to last for a year and a day, though that's not perfectly clear... possibly only the additional spell effect lasts a year and a day).

Remember also the size involved here. This place is infinite in size, and we're putting a 40' emanation in there. What this guy did is not equivalent to taking a dump in someone's lawn. It's like an ant pooping somewhere in your lawn... only proportionally, it's even smaller than that. Really not noticeable on the god scale.

So, I could see a local warlord who likes using Turn Undead getting annoyed, but that's only if he happened to spot you.

JaronK

Snowbluff
2011-12-07, 08:23 PM
Nope. When you're on the plane of a god of battle I would avoid defiling it. And an Avatar showing up, which I believe wander around the plane, is perfectly acceptable.

Yes, the plane of a god of battle where a person was making battle preparations and then killed him for no reason since he would come back to life.

Alabenson
2011-12-07, 08:36 PM
See, I'd believe that if this were in the 7 heavens or something. But this is Ysgard, plane of battle. It feels to me like this is such a small thing that the gods (well, the primary one anyway) wouldn't really consider this important... at most I'd expect any deity who notices to see that area as a good target for more forces of evil and good to battle over. It's not like it's a permanent effect (the effects seem to last for a year and a day, though that's not perfectly clear... possibly only the additional spell effect lasts a year and a day).

Remember also the size involved here. This place is infinite in size, and we're putting a 40' emanation in there. What this guy did is not equivalent to taking a dump in someone's lawn. It's like an ant pooping somewhere in your lawn... only proportionally, it's even smaller than that. Really not noticeable on the god scale.

So, I could see a local warlord who likes using Turn Undead getting annoyed, but that's only if he happened to spot you.

JaronK

The issue isn't just that the player cast unhallow, though, its that the player cast unhallow for the express purpose of cheating in a duel, an act which would be extremely offensive to the dogma of the resident Good-aligned deity. This is roughly analagous to going onto the property of a celebrity who is ardently anti-animal cruelty and tearing up a small part of their lawn to build a dog fighting ring. In the long-run, its less that you're tearing up their lawn than why you're tearing up their lawn.

The_Jackal
2011-12-07, 08:44 PM
My question is why should a paladin be so thick as to accept a duel from someone he knows to be evil (detect evil at will, guys). Just because he's Lawful Good doesn't mean he has to behave like the slow kid at the cafeteria.

Snowbluff
2011-12-07, 10:31 PM
The issue isn't just that the player cast unhallow, though, its that the player cast unhallow for the express purpose of cheating in a duel, an act which would be extremely offensive to the dogma of the resident Good-aligned deity. This is roughly analagous to going onto the property of a celebrity who is ardently anti-animal cruelty and tearing up a small part of their lawn to build a dog fighting ring. In the long-run, its less that you're tearing up their lawn than why you're tearing up their lawn.

Lol. Just lol. Cheating at at duel is decidedly chaotic, but no one said this was cheating and Kord is not lawful.

NichG
2011-12-08, 09:36 AM
Generally when I run Ysgard the resurrection effect has a rider from the 2ed era that would deal with this particular behavior on its own. That is basically, you're resurrected if you die heroically. I'd follow up the unhallow with 'that night you have a strange dream...' and basically let the PC know that sure, he can go ahead with the duel or not as he likes, but the plane has withdrawn its boon from him for this fight due to his cowardly behavior.

I think it'd also be reasonable to have the unhallow simply fail or require a fairly high CL check given the location and scale.

The 'slap on the wrist execution' really amounts to less of a punishment but delivered more heavyhandedly. As such I don't think its unfair, but I do think its not the ideal combination of factors. No real consequence + big power show means the PC will read it as 'the DM is using big powerful NPCs to take away my fun' rather than 'well, I just did something dumb and now I've got to figure out how to survive the consequences'.

Edit: Also, w.r.t. the 'Kord wouldn't notice' thing, 3.5ed gods have ridiculous information capabilities. Portfolio sense for example (since this is surrounding a duel) would be a reasonable way for him to notice. Dispatching disciplinary action could easily be done with one of his dozens of free actions each round.

Ironically I do give bonus xp for declared duels, but the extra xp is forfeited in the case of interference (i.e. allies messing with the duel, breaking the terms, etc). It also needs to be a 'meaningful' duel, but if this was a sort of 'If you're going to judge me, I want trial by combat!' thing to an NPC who was being a jerk that'd be meaningful enough to qualify.

Killer Angel
2011-12-08, 11:15 AM
Edit: Also, w.r.t. the 'Kord wouldn't notice' thing, 3.5ed gods have ridiculous information capabilities.

Exceptions exist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html)... and sometimes even gods can be busy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0040.html). :smalltongue:

DrDeth
2011-12-08, 11:37 AM
Mistake 1- running a Evil game.

Mistake 2- allowing eps for “solo” battles. Unfair to the other players, makes for spotlight hogging and grandstanding.

Mistake 3- Deux ex Machina without a warning. His deity should have warned him when he prepared Unhallow that morning.

Killer Angel
2011-12-08, 11:47 AM
Mistake 3- Deux ex Machina without a warning. His deity should have warned him when he prepared Unhallow that morning.

(Leaving aside that DeM is a different thing...)
:smallconfused: WHY?!?

DrDeth
2011-12-08, 12:06 PM
Well, look at it this way. His deity doesn’t want him to get squished, right? So if the other guys deity can get involved, the PC’s deity can at least send a warning during morning prayers. After all, note that a deity grants spells then.

Helldog
2011-12-08, 12:11 PM
Well, look at it this way. His deity doesn’t want him to get squished, right? So if the other guys deity can get involved, the PC’s deity can at least send a warning during morning prayers. After all, note that a deity grants spells then.
Dread Necromancers don't pray for spells.

DrDeth
2011-12-08, 12:39 PM
Yep, and Paladins can’t normally summon major deities. Any time there is a risk of DexM and instant death, the DM needs to give hints and warnings.

Helldog
2011-12-08, 12:59 PM
Yep, and Paladins can’t normally summon major deities.
This didn't happen, so I don't understand what you're getting at.


Any time there is a risk of DexM and instant death, the DM needs to give hints and warnings.
What DexM? The player did something stupid and ate the consequences.

Alabenson
2011-12-08, 01:09 PM
Any time there is a risk of DexM and instant death, the DM needs to give hints and warnings.

Normally I'd agree, but given the fact that death is only a very minor inconvenience on the plane in question, I have to side with the DM in this instance.

killem2
2011-12-08, 01:38 PM
I suppose the unhallow thing is not really something to worry about in this discussion, because even if he didn't do that, the fact remains he wanted to fight this paladin.

The way I see it is, this is a Paladin. I view Paladins as the holy, long arm of the law for matters like this.

I am still going to say that if a CE players wants to fight someone with out reason, that is what a C/E guy would do. Its not like he came up to the stronghold of church.

Aegis013
2011-12-08, 01:50 PM
Mistake 3- Deux ex Machina...

Not that my opinion counts for all that much, but if this character even was a servant of any evil deity, that deity may simply enjoy watching the character get squished, knowing that the character would not lose anything of importance.

The evil deity in question may choose to warn the player in question, but if the deity knows that Kord will not take the slander against the deity personally... there's no motive for the deity to act.

Also I believe it's Deus, the latin word for deity... not Deux (I'm sorry, but that bugged me for some reason)

Socratov
2011-12-08, 02:21 PM
snip for relevance


Ohh a Necromantic hamster would be adorable.


oh pleaseohpleaseohplease can I sig this? this is brilliant!

Jade Dragon
2011-12-08, 02:52 PM
Lol. Just lol. Cheating at at duel is decidedly chaotic, but no one said this was cheating and Kord is not lawful.

He was shaping the battlefield in his favor. I think that's cheating.

And cheating is not chaotic. It is dishonorable. Dishonorable does not have an alignment, but the most common dishonorable alignments are CN, CE, and NE, and every assassin from the LG rebel to the CE death-for-hire isn't averse to using poison.

Lost Demiurge
2011-12-08, 02:52 PM
Ah, you did the right thing. The player brought this on himself.

If he feels he's gonna get pwned in the now-suddenly-fair duel, tell him he can always run away. He's already demonstrated that he's an honorless SOB, what's he got to lose by showing cowardice? And since they ended up on this plane by accident, they don't have any reason to stick around...

Besides, I wouldn't give XP for this duel. It's not advancing the plot, and they're doing it in a realm where death isn't permanent for either party. There's nothing at stake and it doesn't add anything to the story.

Mnemnosyne
2011-12-08, 03:01 PM
My main question would be whether the player had any indication that he was within a god's actual domain. Keep in mind, planes are big. As in, infinitely big. Just because you happen to be on Ysgard doesn't necessarily mean you're within a god's actual domain, and the upper planes in general get attacked all the time. Gods don't really have the time to pop in and smush anyone who happens to do something unpleasant in the entire plane, because stuff like that is constantly happening. Literally, constantly. Because again, the whole 'infinite' thing. At any given time, somewhere on the infinity of that plane, there is an attack going on. Maybe a small expeditionary force of Tanar'ri or some Slaadi that wandered over to cause trouble or something.

Now, if the player didn't bother to look around and try to identify exactly where he was on the plane at all, and just challenged the first dude he ran into to a fight like this, and therefore happened to be within the actual domain of Kord, then no, doesn't seem unfair at all, but if he had some time, looked around, etc, and got no indication whatsoever that he was actually within the domain of a deity, it's entirely reasonable to assume that he's just somewhere on the plane that isn't part of any particular powerful being's domain, so there's nobody around to get pissed.

And if he wasn't literally on Kord's doorstep, within his actual domain, then I would say yes, he was treated very unfairly. There's no reason at all why a god would even be aware of such an activity on some random location in an infinite plane, or why he would care if he was. Remember, the plane as a whole is always under attack. Always. At most, it should, possibly, attract the attention of some celestials. After a period of time. Once someone has had time to notice the unhallowed land.

Occasional Sage
2011-12-08, 03:29 PM
So my question is simple. Was my punishment to harsh, especially considering that all he lost from it was a day in character?


Not overly harsh at all, I'd say. I'd say that a non-death punishment would have brought the lesson home more though, something that lets him duel and drives him to fail, badly. It would probably have felt less punitive to the player, who frankly earned all the punishment you handed out.



Isn't there a rule among deities about intervening with mortals?


I think any such rule would be held in abeyance when the mortal goes to the offended deity's home plane. C'mon, even if Bob has a restraining order against me I'm not going to be expected to sit on my thumbs when he breaks into my house!



This is why Know (Religion) is a skill. I can barely keep track of any deities that aren't within a step of LG, honestly...


Just sayin', CG is one step from LG. :smallwink:

Tyndmyr
2011-12-08, 03:44 PM
So in a recent game my neutral-evil aligned party ended up on the Heroic Plains of Ysgard. Now this was not my fault as they randomly rolled for another plane while on the Astral Plane.

Now the CE Dread Necromancer player proceeds to piss off a high lvl Paladin npc and challenges him to a duel. I knew his plan in an instant. He wanted to kill the npc in a solo fight to reap the xp. He's done it before.

The paladin agrees to allow him time to prepare for the duel and so they seperate. He then proceeds to cast Unhallow so as to have an advantage when he unleashed his undead from his bag of holding.

I then declared that an avatar of Kord appeared, taking offence that someone would dare try to defile his plane and proceeded to squish the offending necromancer.

Now my player complained that I was picking on him but I simply replied that a good aligned god who would know that killing someone on his plane was not permanant (due to the true ressurection effect) would take a seriously dim view of someone desecrating his landscape and would intervene.

So my question is simple. Was my punishment to harsh, especially considering that all he lost from it was a day in character?

Er, the whole "unleashing a previously unmentioned and unrelated avatar of a god" is kind of poor form.

I'm not saying that his plan was genius, mind you...merely that, from a story point of view, you want to sort of foreshadow these sorts of things.

The offended paladin agreeing to give him a full day of preparation is more likely problematic. I would have had the paladin arrange clear terms to the duel with him, and I would not assume the offending player has both choice of ground and weapons. Things such as nomination of seconds is excellent. In short...if it's going to be a duel, it's going to be a duel, not a quick fight on his terms for bonus xp. This'll not only make it a more memorable encounter, it will make fairly explicit what's going on. If the paladin's second is obviously someone of considerable power, it would be quite obvious to the necromancer that cheating is a poor strategy.

Note also that, as the paladin is extremely likely to have ranks in knowledge religion, and have a rather good idea of what this plane is like, he might want some sort of stakes for this duel above the idea of merely dying and being true rezed. Winner takes weapon, or some such.

The above all curbs any real abuse without pulling an avatar out of nowhere, or even having to explain how people noticed his misdeeds.

The Glyphstone
2011-12-08, 03:50 PM
The easiest solution, as previously mentioned, is that he gains no XP from the fight, as there is no risk or threat by fighting a paladin. Even if he dies, he gets True Rezzed the next day for free.

prufock
2011-12-08, 03:52 PM
The outcome was probably necessary, but the means were overkill. I would have just had the Paladin waste him.

Tyndmyr
2011-12-08, 03:53 PM
Just sayin', CG is one step from LG. :smallwink:

Er, no. NG is in between, so it's two steps.

Doug Lampert
2011-12-08, 04:01 PM
The easiest solution, as previously mentioned, is that he gains no XP from the fight, as there is no risk or threat by fighting a paladin. Even if he dies, he gets True Rezzed the next day for free.

That's an absolute neccessity of the setting. Most of the people on that plane duel or fight each other fairly frequently and many have been there for THOUSANDS of years.

If most fights are roughly even, and on average they die once every 2 days in a fight, then that means they also win an average of one fight every 2 days and if the fights give full XP they advance in level roughly once a week. (Slightly faster actually, but I'll round down.)

So, say that paladin arived a mear 500 years ago as a weak little level 1 character. If duels like this give XP then he's now ONLY level 26,001 or so.

Note that this is the conservative estimate. He could easily have a few hundred thousand more levels.

Don't award XP for this sort of thing, or do so and also declare that the setting has all its problems short of Pun Pun solved by the MILLIONS of level 50,000+ characters from that single plane.

The 3.x XP rules NEVER state that killing something or winning a fight gives XP! Overcoming challenges and making progress give XP. If the fight doesn't contribute to anything or accomplish anything it doesn't give XP, EVER.

DougL

killem2
2011-12-08, 04:03 PM
The outcome was probably necessary, but the means were overkill. I would have just had the Paladin waste him.

This is how I feel. Was this paladin so weak he couldn't handle a meddling necromancer?

DrDeth
2011-12-08, 04:12 PM
This didn't happen, so I don't understand what you're getting at.


What DexM? The player did something stupid and ate the consequences.

DexM= Deus ex Machina, ie direct deific intervention. Which is exactly what happened, deserved or not.

Talya
2011-12-08, 04:16 PM
OMG, please let me sig this!

I don't mind.

Occasional Sage
2011-12-08, 04:27 PM
Er, no. NG is in between, so it's two steps.

Oops, right. More coffee for me, obviously!

Szar_Lakol
2011-12-08, 04:31 PM
While amusing (and appropriate), the problem is that it came out of nowhere.

Kord definitely would notice (his portfolio is battle, this was a formal duel, and the DN was cheating in a way that would offend a Good deity quite vehemently), and him stepping in is probably okay.

But the DN should've at least had a shot at knowing that casting unhallow in a god's backyard is a bad, bad, bad idea.

Still. Funny. And the problem isn't much of one, since he's getting a true resurrection anyway. Player should chalk it up to a lesson and move on.

Zale
2011-12-08, 04:34 PM
oh pleaseohpleaseohplease can I sig this? this is brilliant!

Someone wants to Sig something I said? AWESOME!

Of course! :D

Helldog
2011-12-08, 05:05 PM
DexM= Deus ex Machina, ie direct deific intervention. Which is exactly what happened, deserved or not.
The player did something stupid and there were consequences. Nothing more.

Snowbluff
2011-12-08, 05:08 PM
He was shaping the battlefield in his favor. I think that's cheating.

And cheating is not chaotic. It is dishonorable. Dishonorable does not have an alignment, but the most common dishonorable alignments are CN, CE, and NE, and every assassin from the LG rebel to the CE death-for-hire isn't averse to using poison.

Unless i was explicitly stated in the agreement of the duel, it's not cheating. Even if it was, the CE DN has no obligation to follow the rules.

Another thing. Cheating is breaking rules. Chaotic means you say fiddlesticks to such rules.

Talentless
2011-12-08, 06:55 PM
Unless i was explicitly stated in the agreement of the duel, it's not cheating. Even if it was, the CE DN has no obligation to follow the rules.

Another thing. Cheating is breaking rules. Chaotic means you say fiddlesticks to such rules.

Even if this is accurate, just because his alignment can say "balls to you, rules" and ignore them doesn't mean there aren't going to be consequences for doing so.

Like everyone else said, he planned on breaking the rules of a duel, in the backyard of the God of Battle... really, he's damned lucky that he didn't just get banished from the Plane on the spot(or worse if Kord happened to be having a bad day, or feeling vindicitive, or any other thing that would make him respond harsher than necessary for a first time offense.)

Jade Dragon
2011-12-08, 09:10 PM
Unless i was explicitly stated in the agreement of the duel, it's not cheating. Even if it was, the CE DN has no obligation to follow the rules.

Another thing. Cheating is breaking rules. Chaotic means you say fiddlesticks to such rules.

Like Talentless said. Your alignment doesn't give you a free pass on certain things.

Snowbluff
2011-12-08, 10:12 PM
Even if this is accurate, just because his alignment can say "balls to you, rules" and ignore them doesn't mean there aren't going to be consequences for doing so.

Like everyone else said, he planned on breaking the rules of a duel, in the backyard of the God of Battle... really, he's damned lucky that he didn't just get banished from the Plane on the spot(or worse if Kord happened to be having a bad day, or feeling vindicitive, or any other thing that would make him respond harsher than necessary for a first time offense.)


Like Talentless said. Your alignment doesn't give you a free pass on certain things.

Except that Kord is chaotic too, he wouldn't care. I would understand him acting against an unhallow or a spellcaster, but breaking rules is not something he cares about.

RedWarrior0
2011-12-08, 10:35 PM
@People saying Cheating == Chaotic: Why the hell (no pun intended) was FCII basically 90% "I don't care what you thought the devil said, he's going to plant a knife in your back at the first chance."

In this case, the DN was doing (more or less) what a pit fiend in his place would have done.

Mantarni
2011-12-08, 10:49 PM
Lawful does not mean they follow your rule systems. It means they adhere to a code of conduct that may as well be orange and blue morality scales.

Which may involve backstabbing someone at first opportunity, provided you still stick to the letter of your agreements with them. Or provided you never stick to the letter of your agreements with them. Or that you subjectively twist them until it means what you want.

RedWarrior0
2011-12-08, 10:55 PM
Mine point exactly.

I do believe an avatar of Kord was a little overkill, but whatever.

Szar_Lakol
2011-12-09, 12:43 AM
Unless i was explicitly stated in the agreement of the duel, it's not cheating. Even if it was, the CE DN has no obligation to follow the rules.

Another thing. Cheating is breaking rules. Chaotic means you say fiddlesticks to such rules.

Lawful characters can cheat, and Chaotic characters can see cheating as wrong. It is more likely to go the other way, but it is far from set in stone.

Talentless
2011-12-09, 01:38 AM
Except that Kord is chaotic too, he wouldn't care. I would understand him acting against an unhallow or a spellcaster, but breaking rules is not something he cares about.

Would he really not care?

Just because someone is chaotic doesn't mean they will always say "Screw you rules" to everything everywhere.

In your example of how a chaotic character wouldn't care about the rules, does that mean that a chaotic good character should completely ignore someone raping a child across the street because the rapist is breaking the rules? YEAH! GO CHAOS!*

*Ridiculously over the top analog is to drive home the point that just because someone is chaotic doesn't mean they despise all rules in any form whatsoever... unless the alignment happens to be Chaotic Stupid, but that is something else entirely.

Killer Angel
2011-12-09, 02:45 AM
Well, look at it this way. His deity doesn’t want him to get squished, right? So if the other guys deity can get involved, the PC’s deity can at least send a warning during morning prayers. After all, note that a deity grants spells then.

But in this way, it's almost like to have your DM/God that, during the morning prayers and spells' selection, tells you: "nah, bad idea, pick something else", because he knows what kind of danger you're going to face...

Snowbluff
2011-12-09, 02:59 AM
Would he really not care?

Just because someone is chaotic doesn't mean they will always say "Screw you rules" to everything everywhere.

In your example of how a chaotic character wouldn't care about the rules, does that mean that a chaotic good character should completely ignore someone raping a child across the street because the rapist is breaking the rules? YEAH! GO CHAOS!*

*Ridiculously over the top analog is to drive home the point that just because someone is chaotic doesn't mean they despise all rules in any form whatsoever... unless the alignment happens to be Chaotic Stupid, but that is something else entirely.

Except that evil chaotics will use rules... to serve their own needs. Sure, a CG person would stop a racist, even if it was against the law. A LG would have difficulty with this, to the point of dilemma (this is assuming it's lawful rape, but its your example :smalltongue:). A CE person wouldn't care. Nothing is keeping from joining in.

Expecting a CE character to not do something for his own survival/advancement is ludicrous. If a CE DN is asking you for a duel, should should probably expect him to prepare for your worse. If that would include what you would consider cheating (which he could easily justify. Being a jerkass isn't the only thing bad about being CE. They very often they are good at justifying their own twisted logic).

Anyway, my point was that Kord is CG. He believes in the battlefield, not the petty duels of a (presumedly, you don't have to be lawful stupid to want a chance kill a DN) LG paladin and a pesky DN whole trampled a little grass earlier. If anything, the DM could of given the Paladin an item to make the fight interesting (rod of Dispel Magic or something? Something that could un-Unhallow the ground?) rather outright killing him. If he was going to do that, I would of suggested a Sphere of Annihilation to port itself inside of him. You don't have to write lines for a sphere, which would of saved time.

Longcat
2011-12-09, 06:51 AM
Minor nitpick: How is using Undead in a duel cheating? He's a Dread Necromancer, and creating/utilizing undead is part of his class features. If he borrowed minions from someone else, that would be cheating.

Or is the Paladin not allowed to bring his special mount in a duel? Is that cheating too?

Darth_Versity
2011-12-09, 07:30 AM
Expecting a CE character to not do something for his own survival/advancement is ludicrous. If a CE DN is asking you for a duel, should should probably expect him to prepare for your worse. If that would include what you would consider cheating (which he could easily justify. Being a jerkass isn't the only thing bad about being CE. They very often they are good at justifying their own twisted logic).

You seem to be under the assumption that just by looking at his character you would know he is a CE Dread Necromancer. Well the paladin could detect evil, but beyond that he had no other knowledge. You can't prepare to fight a chaotic spellcaster when you don't know that your opponent is a chaotic spellcaster.

Jornophelanthas
2011-12-09, 07:41 AM
Except that Kord is chaotic too, he wouldn't care. I would understand him acting against an unhallow or a spellcaster, but breaking rules is not something he cares about.

From what I read from the OP's posts, Kord acted against the Unhallow, specifically. Which you yourself admit is not unexpected.

Aside from this, Kord would also be angered (but probably not enough to directly intervene) by any character performing any action (whether chaotic, evil, lawful or neutral) that would go directly against the spirit of a duel.

(For example, if a paladin and a necromancer agree to a duel where they will not hit each other in the face, and the necromancer hits the paladin in the face, Kord (as a CG deity) will laugh at the paladin. Since hitting each other in the face does not go against the spirit of a duel.
However, if the necromancer tries to use undead or PC allies to overwhelm the paladin in a fight after agreeing to a one-on-one duel - a chaotic action, and also evil if it involves undead - this would anger Kord (though perhaps not enough to intervene), because turning a duel into a lynching does go against the spirit of a duel.)

The Chaotic alignment of a god or character could simply mean "I like the thought of X so much, I will do anything to protect it". X does not have to be chaos itself, but could also be wine, battling, a specific colony of woodland creatures, or one's own reflection in the mirror.
In Kord's case, his being CG means that he likes displays of strength and prowess in battles played in fairness. Because he is chaotic, he does not need a set of rules for this; the good intentions of the participants should be enough to invoke this fairness.

Viktyr Gehrig
2011-12-09, 08:56 AM
Except that Kord is chaotic too, he wouldn't care.

He is a Chaotic Good deity of competition and fair play. Cheating isn't against his alignment, it's against his portfolio. It's like a Chaotic Evil deity of motherhood, like what's-her-name in the Orcish pantheon; sure, she's Evil, but you can bet that she'd respond to someone killing Orc babies in her backyard.

Worira
2011-12-09, 09:12 AM
Minor nitpick: How is using Undead in a duel cheating? He's a Dread Necromancer, and creating/utilizing undead is part of his class features. If he borrowed minions from someone else, that would be cheating.

Or is the Paladin not allowed to bring his special mount in a duel? Is that cheating too?

Uh, yes, it is. That's kind of the point of a duel.

candycorn
2011-12-09, 10:06 AM
Except that Kord is chaotic too, he wouldn't care. I would understand him acting against an unhallow or a spellcaster, but breaking rules is not something he cares about.

Alignment doesn't define actions. Actions define alignment.

A carefree deity of personal strength and independence? That's chaotic, even if he's also a strong believer in a fair fight or honor, or good. In this case, he's a big supporter of good, and fair, honorable fights.

You can support freedom, and still be in favor of fairness.

Darth_Versity
2011-12-09, 11:14 AM
Alignment doesn't define actions. Actions define alignment.

A carefree deity of personal strength and independence? That's chaotic, even if he's also a strong believer in a fair fight or honor, or good. In this case, he's a big supporter of good, and fair, honorable fights.

You can support freedom, and still be in favor of fairness.

This is one of the major problems with alignment. To many people see it as a strait jacket that confines your actions when really its just a general guide to how you handle things.

A good man could commit murder under the correct circumstances and an evil person could save someone from a burning building. Just trying to order things with good/evil lawful/chaotic is not enough to cover a whole spectrum of personality traits.

Occasional Sage
2011-12-09, 11:17 AM
That's not an alignment problem; that's a misuse of alignment problem. Although the alignment=personality fallacy has been around long enough that I guess there's no functional difference.

killem2
2011-12-09, 11:29 AM
Uh, yes, it is. That's kind of the point of a duel.

Ok, so a duel is just a melee fight. :smallconfused:

Slipperychicken
2011-12-09, 11:33 AM
The punishment is losing >1,000gp, 24 hours plus True Rez time, and earning the extreme disfavor of a diety. If he didn't know this would get Kord to smack him, he should've gotten a warning (Know: Religion would be perfect for this). I can't say he should've known Kord would smack him, because I can't keep track of deities myself.

Occasional Sage
2011-12-09, 11:38 AM
The punishment is losing >1,000gp, 24 hours plus True Rez time, and earning the extreme disfavor of a diety. If he didn't know this would get Kord to smack him, he should've gotten a warning (Know: Religion would be perfect for this). I can't say he should've known Kord would smack him, because I can't keep track of deities myself.

It's not Kord; it's being on a Plane made of Goodness. There isn't a deity around that isn't going to be cranky about that sort of behavior, on any part of the alignment spectrum, unless *maybe* there's some obscure Deity of Apathy out there I've never heard of.

But meh.

Darth_Versity
2011-12-09, 11:43 AM
The punishment is losing >1,000gp, 24 hours plus True Rez time, and earning the extreme disfavor of a diety. If he didn't know this would get Kord to smack him, he should've gotten a warning (Know: Religion would be perfect for this). I can't say he should've known Kord would smack him, because I can't keep track of deities myself.

Yeah... He skipped strait over knowledge: religion, instead putting ranks in profession: whore (the character is female)

Gullintanni
2011-12-09, 11:49 AM
Just going on record here...

Lawful means you follow the laws of the authority you recognize. This can be a king, in which case, the laws you follow will be the laws of the land, or this can be you, in which case, you follow a personal code of conduct. Either way, the result is consistent behavior, in which case you can probably say that a Lawful character will behave consistently.

A Chaotic character, on the other hand, doesn't cling to principals or value laws. Instead, they do what is most beneficial in the moment, regardless of law or principal.

Depending on how Kord feels about people desecrating his home, he may see it as personally beneficial to eliminate said character. There is the issue of whether or not Kord would be aware of it, but...given that Ysgard is a good aligned plane, casting Unhallow might arguably be equivalent to dropping black paint on a white sheet of paper. No matter how small the drop of paint, it's gonna stand out.

You can flavor your intervention that way, and Kord might just happen to have an avatar in the area. I think it's pretty heavy handed myself, but somewhat justifiable. A more reasonable response would've been to say, "...a swarm of battling celestials witness your desecration of holy land, and are closing in. Prepare yourself". Then roll initiative, and watch as the combat rounds pass and your Dread Necro gets reduced to fine mist.

Tyndmyr
2011-12-09, 12:01 PM
Mine point exactly.

I do believe an avatar of Kord was a little overkill, but whatever.

Basically, this. Nah, you don't want to reward him with piles of xp for his shenanigans...or the game devolves into MMO grinding.

But there are more subtle and story appropriate ways to bring him up short than bampfing in a diefic avatar.

That's really what it comes down to.

Helldog
2011-12-09, 12:03 PM
A Chaotic character, on the other hand, doesn't cling to principals or value laws. Instead, they do what is most beneficial in the moment, regardless of law or principal.
No. Neutrals do what is beneficial. Chaotics do what they feel is right, they often act on emotions and impulses.

Gullintanni
2011-12-09, 12:44 PM
No. Neutrals do what is beneficial. Chaotics do what they feel is right, they often act on emotions and impulses.

So...then Chaotic Neutrals do what they feel is beneficial? I tend to think of Neutrals as being pragmatic. What's beneficial is part of that, but so is what's rational and what's irrational.

Chaotic tends to react in the method that is most suited to their occasion. They're spontaneous, but not necessarily emotional. Emotion vs. Non-emotion really has nothing to do alignment at all. Chaotic is not a license to act randomly, but rather, a license to pursue the best possible ends given their personal outlook (be it good, neutral or evil), and the rules be damned.

YMMV as always mind you, just my 2cp.

Helldog
2011-12-09, 01:13 PM
So...then Chaotic Neutrals do what they feel is beneficial? I tend to think of Neutrals as being pragmatic. What's beneficial is part of that, but so is what's rational and what's irrational.

Chaotic tends to react in the method that is most suited to their occasion. They're spontaneous, but not necessarily emotional. Emotion vs. Non-emotion really has nothing to do alignment at all. Chaotic is not a license to act randomly, but rather, a license to pursue the best possible ends given their personal outlook (be it good, neutral or evil), and the rules be damned.

YMMV as always mind you, just my 2cp.
Nope. That is Neutrality on the Chaos/Law axis.
Lawful character does what someone or something (higher up, authority, local law, tradition, ect.) tells him. He's more likely to do what is expected of him, then what he himself wants.
Chaotic character does what his heart, emotions, conscience tells him. He;s more likely to do what he feels is right or what he wants to do.
Neutral character does what is best in the moment.

Occasional Sage
2011-12-09, 01:24 PM
Yeah... He skipped strait over knowledge: religion, instead putting ranks in profession: whore (the character is female)

On the one hand, I really hope this is snark rather than an actual recount of the character sheet.

On the other hand, if this is factual then the problem is more fundamental than the events of the duel would suggest, and much easier to solve.

Jade Dragon
2011-12-09, 01:25 PM
You don't play alignments though. You play characters. This is why the real world is morally gray. This is why Exalted, a system without alignment, is morally gray.

And gods? Chaotic people don't let people walk into their home and knock things over, and for gods, the entire plane is their home and they don't want it messed up.

killem2
2011-12-09, 01:26 PM
I have some questions for most here, not because I want to stir stuff up, I'm a new DM and while I don't have any CE people, I am genuinely curious. So let me understand:

We have a CE Dread Necromancer (not really sure the difference from a normal necromancer but no matter), and we have a plane that the God of, is C/G and it is a battle plane.

We have some Goodie-two-shoes Paladin that is drawn into a duel with the Necromancer and given a day to prepare.

The necromancer uses the power of pain, death, undead, and what not to win his battles. At his core, he's still a wizard, and thus this is his power.

The Paladin, uses a limited arsenal of cleric spells, but also bolsters the ability to wield weapons and shields and armor. They also come with the ability to shrug off most undead, and heal if needed.

The DM comes in and states, ok you defiled my plane with your unhallow spell and the god crushes him or avatar or whatever.



So, I have to ask, if he didn't cast unhallow, would you have allowed him to fight he paladin? This is what I want to know for sure. Because in my mind, unless you have some story reason for banning a player for accepting a duel with what in all reality is his arch nemesis, should be nothing to worry about.

The EL scales fairly well, if he would have solo'd the paladin does that mean he kills the paladin, or is the duel to the death? It doesn't say if it is. I assume it is. Assuming doesn't mean much.

So you have a necro manacer who MIGHT have gotten a possible free level, but you make it sound like he wouldn't be earning it.

Is a necro vs paladin completely imbalanced? Did you make an inferior paladin, and are paying for it after someone wants to test it?

I as a DM, would have a hard time swallowing, dropping a GOD on a player, a friend, a gamer, just because they chose a certain action which is perfectly with in the confines of the game. You kill stuff, you get XP.

I get it, the DM can do what ever they want, but I'd feel really uncomfortable doing something like that with out a fairly good storyline. Not a oneliner.

Szar_Lakol
2011-12-09, 01:31 PM
People need to learn the difference between Chaos and Law, I think. :smallsigh:

Chaos favors freedom. Law favors order. Law abides by tradition, is reliable, puts society over individuals, and generally serves to restrict and protect. Chaos promotes freedom, is flexible, puts individuals first, and generally serves to set free and allow people to support themselves.

It has nothing to do with a code of conduct, or, for that matter, rules. A code of conduct or a rule can be Lawful, but they sure as hell can also be Chaotic.

Impulsiveness is chaotic, whereas carefulness is lawful. That does not mean a Lawful character will become Chaotic because he acts impulsively. Alignments are not straight-jackets, and people do not act only according to their alignment. People are complex that way.

Talentless
2011-12-09, 01:34 PM
I as a DM, would have a hard time swallowing, dropping a GOD on a player, a friend, a gamer, just because they chose a certain action which is perfectly with in the confines of the game. You kill stuff, you get XP.

I get it, the DM can do what ever they want, but I'd feel really uncomfortable doing something like that with out a fairly good storyline. Not a oneliner.

The thing is, "You Kill stuff, you get XP" is not a hard and fast rule. It even explicitly states in the DMG that players get XP for overcoming challenges and making progress(which is decided by the DM.)

So if a fight has no point other than just a Duel on a metagame basis to try and get more XP, the DM can decide that he doesn't get any XP for it. Especially on a plane that true res everyone who died on it a day later.

Also, it isn't because of the Duel that the Avatar of Kord was dropped on the player. Like has been said before, it was entirely because he essentially took the Hallowed ground of a plane of GOOD, and *tried* to reverse it(essentially turning it into a patch of the Abyss or something) that a CG Deity took offense.

Gullintanni
2011-12-09, 01:38 PM
-snip-

Nevermind. This is becoming a full-blown alignment debate. These never end well.

Worira
2011-12-09, 01:42 PM
Ok, so a duel is just a melee fight. :smallconfused:

No, it's a fight between two people, typically with specific rules. Certain duels might allow magic while others might not, but it's not a duel if you're having allies fight for you.

Darth_Versity
2011-12-09, 01:42 PM
On the one hand, I really hope this is snark rather than an actual recount of the character sheet.

On the other hand, if this is factual then the problem is more fundamental than the events of the duel would suggest, and much easier to solve.

That comment was genuine. He is playing a lvls 11 DN with 6 ranks of profession: whore.


I have some questions for most here, not because I want to stir stuff up, I'm a new DM and while I don't have any CE people, I am genuinely curious. So let me understand:

We have a CE Dread Necromancer (not really sure the difference from a normal necromancer but no matter), and we have a plane that the God of, is C/G and it is a battle plane.

We have some Goodie-two-shoes Paladin that is drawn into a duel with the Necromancer and given a day to prepare.

The necromancer uses the power of pain, death, undead, and what not to win his battles. At his core, he's still a wizard, and thus this is his power.

The Paladin, uses a limited arsenal of cleric spells, but also bolsters the ability to wield weapons and shields and armor. They also come with the ability to shrug off most undead, and heal if needed.

The DM comes in and states, ok you defiled my plane with your unhallow spell and the god crushes him or avatar or whatever.



So, I have to ask, if he didn't cast unhallow, would you have allowed him to fight he paladin? This is what I want to know for sure. Because in my mind, unless you have some story reason for banning a player for accepting a duel with what in all reality is his arch nemesis, should be nothing to worry about.

The EL scales fairly well, if he would have solo'd the paladin does that mean he kills the paladin, or is the duel to the death? It doesn't say if it is. I assume it is. Assuming doesn't mean much.

So you have a necro manacer who MIGHT have gotten a possible free level, but you make it sound like he wouldn't be earning it.

Is a necro vs paladin completely imbalanced? Did you make an inferior paladin, and are paying for it after someone wants to test it?

I as a DM, would have a hard time swallowing, dropping a GOD on a player, a friend, a gamer, just because they chose a certain action which is perfectly with in the confines of the game. You kill stuff, you get XP.

I get it, the DM can do what ever they want, but I'd feel really uncomfortable doing something like that with out a fairly good storyline. Not a oneliner.

If he hadn't cast Unhallow then I would have had no problem with the fight, he would have lost as it was a lvl 20 paladin vs a lvl 11 DN.

My thoughts were twofold.
First the fight had no story reason beyond 'i want xp' and the result was a foregone conclusion.
Second, I found it hard to believe that a good aligned god would allow a mortal to defile his home. That's like having someone you dislike in your home. You'll tolerate their presence but if they then piss in your kitchen sink then you kick up a fuss.

Aergoth
2011-12-09, 01:46 PM
I have some questions for most here, not because I want to stir stuff up, I'm a new DM and while I don't have any CE people, I am genuinely curious. So let me understand:

We have a CE Dread Necromancer (not really sure the difference from a normal necromancer but no matter), and we have a plane that the God of, is C/G and it is a battle plane.

A Dread Necromancer is a class from Heroes of Horror, they're a specialized type of spellcaster, with a limited spell list and abilities that focus on raising and controlling various types of undead, culminating in the Dread Necromancer becoming a lich.


We have some Goodie-two-shoes Paladin that is drawn into a duel with the Necromancer and given a day to prepare.

The necromancer uses the power of pain, death, undead, and what not to win his battles. At his core, he's still a wizard, and thus this is his power.

He's not a wizard. See above. The Paladin is, by his code, required to hold his word as binding, in this case. If the paladin agreed that he would not for instance, cast spells, summon his mount or use magical weaponry, as a paladin bound by the code, he would very likely abide by that, because the is how the class works. The alignment merely serves to back up the restrictions of the class in this case.


The Paladin, uses a limited arsenal of cleric spells, but also bolsters the ability to wield weapons and shields and armor. They also come with the ability to shrug off most undead, and heal if needed.

The DM comes in and states, ok you defiled my plane with your unhallow spell and the god crushes him or avatar or whatever.

You're getting into game discussion (players and DMs) as opposed to character discussion (The Necromancer, the Paladin and the Avatar of Kord). The DM did what was appropriate, if as some people have mentioned, a little heavy-handed for an avatar of Kord who found a cheating dread necromancer while walking around the plane. Kord is a deity that while chaotic, believes that combat should be fair, because he feels that this is right. He is also a good deity, so the act of turning a place into a beacon of negative energy is something he might be a little unhappy with. So, the dread necromancer plans to break his agreement with the paladin that the duel is 1 on 1 by bringing in allies. It doesn't matter to Kord that the Dread Necromancer is a class designed to raise undead because classes are game constructs, and Kord is a character. The two are separate. What Kord sees is someone cheating in an honourable duel, so he gives the Dread Necromancer a taste of his own medicine by intervening directly.
[/quote]


So, I have to ask, if he didn't cast unhallow, would you have allowed him to fight he paladin? This is what I want to know for sure. Because in my mind, unless you have some story reason for banning a player for accepting a duel with what in all reality is his arch nemesis, should be nothing to worry about.

The EL scales fairly well, if he would have solo'd the paladin does that mean he kills the paladin, or is the duel to the death? It doesn't say if it is. I assume it is. Assuming doesn't mean much.

So you have a necro manacer who MIGHT have gotten a possible free level, but you make it sound like he wouldn't be earning it.

Is a necro vs paladin completely imbalanced? Did you make an inferior paladin, and are paying for it after someone wants to test it?

The Paladin is a random NPC on a plane where you can fight people to the death and have them get back up again the next day. Arch Nemesis? No. Is he opposed to the Necromancer's as far as alignment? Yes. Is he likely opposed to the ideals of that Necromancer? Quite possibly.

You're trying to cross game and character logic here. It can be done but this is getting a little tangled. On the one hand, the Necromancer is quite probably wasting everyone's time at the table by picking a fight with a random NPC. The first level equivalent of this would be the same Necromancer picking a fight with a first level warrior at the town gates.



I as a DM, would have a hard time swallowing, dropping a GOD on a player, a friend, a gamer, just because they chose a certain action which is perfectly with in the confines of the game. You kill stuff, you get XP.
And yes, that is the game. Within the confines of the game you could also go poke a dragon at first level. The dragon could then eat you, because that is also within the confines of the game. It's a little heavy-handed but there's nothing that says that the DM is going outside of the rules here.


I get it, the DM can do what ever they want, but I'd feel really uncomfortable doing something like that with out a fairly good storyline. Not a oneliner.
There was no story here, the player drove the DM to the fight by calling out the random Paladin into a duel in character, and then procceded to have his character cheat. Or try to. It could have been perfectly in character for him to have cheated. Just like it would have been in character for Kord to put some righteous smack on his ass for doing so, maybe just because he felt like it at the time.

Tyndmyr
2011-12-09, 01:48 PM
That comment was genuine. He is playing a lvls 11 DN with 6 ranks of profession: whore.



If he hadn't cast Unhallow then I would have had no problem with the fight, he would have lost as it was a lvl 20 paladin vs a lvl 11 DN.

My thoughts were twofold.
First the fight had no story reason beyond 'i want xp' and the result was a foregone conclusion.
Second, I found it hard to believe that a good aligned god would allow a mortal to defile his home. That's like having someone you dislike in your home. You'll tolerate their presence but if they then piss in your kitchen sink then you kick up a fuss.

Er...he should have probably still lost then.

Did the duel rules explicitly prohibit what the DN did?

As for your last point...not really the case. It's a small finite area on an infinite plane. Unless this happens to be where the god himself lives...it's not an appropriate metaphor. It's a great deal more trivial. Gods have better things to do than for them and their avatars to screw around with every level 11 who casts a spell they don't like.

I mean, if they didn't, why would they bother with paladins and clerics?

Darth_Versity
2011-12-09, 02:01 PM
Er...he should have probably still lost then.

Did the duel rules explicitly prohibit what the DN did?

As for your last point...not really the case. It's a small finite area on an infinite plane. Unless this happens to be where the god himself lives...it's not an appropriate metaphor. It's a great deal more trivial. Gods have better things to do than for them and their avatars to screw around with every level 11 who casts a spell they don't like.

I mean, if they didn't, why would they bother with paladins and clerics?

Let me ask you this way then. Your the CEO of a large company. You are walking through the hallway and catch someone smoking even though its not allowed. This man doesn't work for you, but he is on your turf breaking your rules.

Do you
A. Ignore it, peons arn't worth the hassle
B. Walk off, call security and have them find the offender and deal with it
C. Tell him to stop since your already there, your building, your rules

While the rules of the duel didn't disallow it but he wasn't getting smited over the dual. He was being beaten for desecration of a good aligned gods plane.

killem2
2011-12-09, 02:02 PM
Thanks guys! that helps alot!

Snowbluff
2011-12-09, 02:35 PM
You seem to be under the assumption that just by looking at his character you would know he is a CE Dread Necromancer. Well the paladin could detect evil, but beyond that he had no other knowledge. You can't prepare to fight a chaotic spellcaster when you don't know that your opponent is a chaotic spellcaster.

I was speaking for the DM's perspective for punishment. A Paladin would love to kill a DN just for existing. A duel is great way, since it would avoid harming innocents and wouldn't be consider murder. Besides, even if he wasn't chaotic or evil, wouldn't you expect him to prepare buffs and spells before hand?

On the other hand, that's kind of irrelevant. A paladin can't enter Unhallowed ground anyway. Putting zombies in it do nothing, unless all of them were armed with reach weapons. The DM could of handled any other way than outright killing him, like Kord showing up and saying "Hey! NO dueling here! Only bar fights!", forcing it into a draw, telling the Paladin to leave and cry to Heireniousuosuusuio (or whatever) about it, and leaving the DN without any extra exp, preserving the status quo.

Tyndmyr
2011-12-09, 02:47 PM
Let me ask you this way then. Your the CEO of a large company. You are walking through the hallway and catch someone smoking even though its not allowed. This man doesn't work for you, but he is on your turf breaking your rules.

Do you
A. Ignore it, peons arn't worth the hassle
B. Walk off, call security and have them find the offender and deal with it
C. Tell him to stop since your already there, your building, your rules

While the rules of the duel didn't disallow it but he wasn't getting smited over the dual. He was being beaten for desecration of a good aligned gods plane.

As a CEO of a large company, I am highly unlikely to catch someone smoking in an inappropriate place personally.

The most likely enforcement? No smoking signs, and whoever is local that happens to be annoyed.

The CEO isn't the law enforcer in any realistic sense. He's the guy that sets the general policies, sure...but in practice, this sort of situation is never going to rise to the CEO level.

To translate it to your game...clerics and paladins and other minions exist to handle low level stuff. Gods and their avatars deal with the heavy hitters, not every trivial infraction of policy.

Jade Dragon
2011-12-09, 03:02 PM
As a CEO of a large company, I am highly unlikely to catch someone smoking in an inappropriate place personally.

The most likely enforcement? No smoking signs, and whoever is local that happens to be annoyed.

The CEO isn't the law enforcer in any realistic sense. He's the guy that sets the general policies, sure...but in practice, this sort of situation is never going to rise to the CEO level.

To translate it to your game...clerics and paladins and other minions exist to handle low level stuff. Gods and their avatars deal with the heavy hitters, not every trivial infraction of policy.

But on their personal planes, the avatars are the security. And frankly, gods are pretty good at noticing everything going on in their home, unlike the CEO who isn't aware of what's going on everywhere in his business all at once.

Darth_Versity
2011-12-09, 03:04 PM
The CEO isn't the law enforcer in any realistic sense. He's the guy that sets the general policies, sure...but in practice, this sort of situation is never going to rise to the CEO level.

But the question wasn't "Is this a likely thing to happen?" it was "This has happened, what do you do?"

As a god your unlikely to come across a mortal foolish enough to desecrate your plane, but when adventurers are involved I find that unlikely things happen all the time.

lord_khaine
2011-12-09, 03:06 PM
I agree with Tyndmyr on this, to start with using a God to deliver a random smackdown to a player is incredibly heavyhandet, and way out of proportions.

And as for the cheating part, where there actualy any agrement forbiding behavior of this sort?
Because cheating is breaking the rules of the game or competition, but if the only rule was that it were a 1 on 1 fight, then i cant see how he could be breaking non-existant rules.

The Glyphstone
2011-12-09, 03:11 PM
That comment was genuine. He is playing a lvls 11 DN with 6 ranks of profession: whore.



If he hadn't cast Unhallow then I would have had no problem with the fight, he would have lost as it was a lvl 20 paladin vs a lvl 11 DN.

My thoughts were twofold.
First the fight had no story reason beyond 'i want xp' and the result was a foregone conclusion.
Second, I found it hard to believe that a good aligned god would allow a mortal to defile his home. That's like having someone you dislike in your home. You'll tolerate their presence but if they then piss in your kitchen sink then you kick up a fuss.

I'm missing something. A Lvl11 DN should be losing a fight to a Lvl20 Paladin whether they're fighting in an Unhallow zone or not. At best, he gets the Protection vs. Good effect.

vitkiraven
2011-12-09, 03:25 PM
For what it is worth, I feel that the punishment was either just, or very light-handed. I am basing this off of the Unhallow effect, not the duel or what not.
My reasoning is below, if any want to see it.
The Heroic Domain of Ysgard is on the good side of the outer planes. This means that it is under constant threat (if not action) of invasion from the evil aligned planes. I am quite certain that there are Devils constantly looking in on the whole plane, to see if there are any exploitable weaknesses. It is one of Kord's jobs, as a Deific caretaker of this plane, to ensure that this does not happen to the best of his ability. The duel itself is really just par for the course for the plane in question. The Unhallow is the big thing. Being cast, it represents a weakness that those of evil alignment can exploit to attempt an invasion of the realm. That is the main reason why I think that the punishment is, at the minimum, acceptable. Honestly, when your domain is under constant threat of invasion, a seditious element is dealt with immediately and harshly to prevent damage to the domain from said element.
This is also why it had to be an Avatar of Kord, rather than a gaggle of good aligned entities noticing and dog-piling the Dread Necromancer. The action had to be stomped out, fast. The unhallow basically had to never have existed, to prevent other external forces from utilizing it to cause havoc in the realm. Anything less than Kord's intervention brings an amount of uncertainty.
I probably would have done something far worse, maybe kill then transport to the Abyss or even Baator. What the DN got was basically a spanking and told to sit in the corner for a day.

killem2
2011-12-09, 03:26 PM
Oh I didn't realize it was a level 20 paladin..

Christ, I'd let the level 11 get waxed. LOL

Talentless
2011-12-09, 03:36 PM
As a CEO of a large company, I am highly unlikely to catch someone smoking in an inappropriate place personally.

The most likely enforcement? No smoking signs, and whoever is local that happens to be annoyed.

The CEO isn't the law enforcer in any realistic sense. He's the guy that sets the general policies, sure...but in practice, this sort of situation is never going to rise to the CEO level.

To translate it to your game...clerics and paladins and other minions exist to handle low level stuff. Gods and their avatars deal with the heavy hitters, not every trivial infraction of policy.

Honestly, a better analogy than the CEO would rather be the security guard in front of the video surveillance monitors. The guy who see's everything, including the guy smoking in a no smoking area near some incredibly flamable objects/gas/whatever that could burn the building down.

Reprimand
2011-12-09, 03:46 PM
So in a recent game my neutral-evil aligned party ended up on the Heroic Plains of Ysgard. Now this was not my fault as they randomly rolled for another plane while on the Astral Plane.

Now the CE Dread Necromancer player proceeds to piss off a high lvl Paladin npc and challenges him to a duel. I knew his plan in an instant. He wanted to kill the npc in a solo fight to reap the xp. He's done it before.

The paladin agrees to allow him time to prepare for the duel and so they seperate. He then proceeds to cast Unhallow so as to have an advantage when he unleashed his undead from his bag of holding.

I then declared that an avatar of Kord appeared, taking offence that someone would dare try to defile his plane and proceeded to squish the offending necromancer.

Now my player complained that I was picking on him but I simply replied that a good aligned god who would know that killing someone on his plane was not permanant (due to the true ressurection effect) would take a seriously dim view of someone desecrating his landscape and would intervene.

So my question is simple. Was my punishment to harsh, especially considering that all he lost from it was a day in character?

Honestly, yes it was. He is an evil character, he will do evil things, but summoning an avatar of Kord to fight him when a PALADIN a LG character agreed to an honorable duel. The paladin should have expressed discontent with the avatar at the very least since he his lawful and just won because of an outside source. Or even losing his paladin-hood because of that. I assume a lawful god would be most disappointed with his paladin.

I mean why don't you just summon a swarm of tarasks to eat him alive while your at it?

Besides even in the book of exalted deeds it states that while gods are powerful they aren't omniscient and can't see everything at once, how did the avatar know he was there?

Don't just kill off a character to solve your problems it only becomes an arms race. Rule 1 of D&D: have fun. If your characters have to be paranoid about random epic encounters popping out to kill them it's going to turn into 5 hours of poking things with 10ft poles and making no progress and having no fun.

Heck, you could have just ruled that because it is a good aligned plane that unhallow spell didn't function properly and nerfed some of the effects! Or at least the avatar of Kord, a warrior god and thus martial respect, could wait until after the duel was finished to begin killing the party or character as the case may be.

Edit: Keep in mind I am exaggerating on purpose but I don't intend to come across as hostile, I just honestly know what it's like to be the person getting focus fired by epic encounters at level 8 (not that the Necro is level 8) but I digress. Point is he's only going to get mad and try to make a more powerful character to break your game out of spite. Trust me it's how power-gamers work. And the guy who's running a dread necro with an undead horde able to keep track of every thing their doing, most likely a power-gamer.

2nd Edit: whole heartedly have to agree with tyrndmyr, just because it's on his homeplane doesn't mean he instantly knows. As above gods are not omniscient in D&D. that's why they have followers like clerics and angels and crap. I mean was some Avatar just spawn camping there? Lol.

3rd Edit: Death why are you arguing the point? In your first post you asked for opinions and now your arguing against everyone's opinions that you just asked for. If your going to ask for opinions be open minded about it rather than just disagreeing with people who are trying to help you, your game and your players. It's constructive criticism, we're not trying to undermine you we're trying to help you be better at what your doing.

Darth_Versity
2011-12-09, 04:06 PM
Honestly, yes it was. He is an evil character, he will do evil things, but summoning an avatar of Kord to fight him when a PALADIN a LG character agreed to an honorable duel. The paladin should have expressed discontent with the avatar at the very least since he his lawful and just won because of an outside source. Or even losing his paladin-hood because of that. I assume a lawful god would be most disappointed with his paladin.

I mean why don't you just summon a swarm of tarasks to eat him alive while your at it?

Besides even in the book of exalted deeds it states that while gods are powerful they aren't omniscient and can't see everything at once, how did the avatar know he was there?

Don't just kill off a character to solve your problems it only becomes an arms race. Rule 1 of D&D: have fun. If your characters have to be paranoid about random epic encounters popping out to kill them it's going to turn into 5 hours of poking things with 10ft poles and making no progress and having no fun.

Heck, you could have just ruled that because it is a good aligned plane that unhallow spell didn't function properly and nerfed some of the effects! Or at least the avatar of Kord, a warrior god and thus martial respect, could wait until after the duel was finished to begin killing the party or character as the case may be.

Edit: Keep in mind I am exaggerating on purpose but I don't intend to come across as hostile, I just honestly know what it's like to be the person getting focus fired by epic encounters at level 8 (not that the Necro is level 8) but I digress. Point is he's only going to get mad and try to make a more powerful character to break your game out of spite. Trust me it's how power-gamers work. And the guy who's running a dread necro with an undead horde able to keep track of every thing their doing, most likely a power-gamer.

Not trying to sound confrontational but have you read anymore than the OP? The paladin was not there as both had gone off to prepare for a day. Kord was not interupting the dual, he was stopping the casting of an unhallow spell (which takes 24 hours) and the death is not permanent as anyone killed on Ysgard gets resurrected at dawn.

The dual was still scheduled to happen the next day (we've actually done the next session and the fight ended up not happening) and even if he was killed again he would get up again the next day. In fact the whole party have died 3 times on the plane so far as they have enjoyed getting involved in mass battles.

Reprimand
2011-12-09, 04:13 PM
Couldn't he just cast in during the duel? or is it like a 10 minute casting time?

Also I feel like you didn't read my whole post.

Edit: why would the paladin agree to duel on an unhallowed area. He could simply ask to fight elsewhere if that were the case.

2nd Edit: Shouldn't a 20th level paladin just waxing the floor with a an evil spell caster anyway?

3rd Edit: Ever hear of appropriate CR encounters?

4th Edit: I wasn't trying to sound confrontational either simply trying to make a point and yes I read more than the first post.

Szar_Lakol
2011-12-09, 04:59 PM
Reprimand, you are completely missing the point.

The paladin didn't know the area was going to be unhallowed.

The paladin might have wiped the floor with the DN, but the duel never happened (though, I believe, for somewhat different reasons), and Kord intervened not because of the duel, but because of the unhallow spell.

It clearly wasn't intended as an encounter. It was intended as a lesson. "Don't **** on the front lawn. The dude owning the place is a DEITY."

Zale
2011-12-09, 05:02 PM
. Kord was not interupting the dual, he was stopping the casting of an unhallow spell (which takes 24 hours)

Can't Kord interrupt the casting from a thousand miles away with one of his many free actions per turn?

Why not do that and then delegate. There's tons of celestials around. Does Kord have nothing better to do? I mean with an infinitely large area, there's bound to be something of more pressing importance than one level eleven Dread Necromancer.

So send in the mooks to slaughter him for having the temerity of Unhallowing his home plane.

lord_khaine
2011-12-09, 05:38 PM
A better question would be why the heck Kord should care about if a small spot on his Infinite plane should get unhallowed for a short while.

Personaly i think its bad gm'ing on the line of "rock falls, everybody dies"

Aegis013
2011-12-09, 06:04 PM
A better question would be why the heck Kord should care about if a small spot on his Infinite plane should get unhallowed for a short while.

Personaly i think its bad gm'ing on the line of "rock falls, everybody dies"

...and everybody gets true res'd at dawn, makes "rocks falls, everybody dies" a whole new game.

Helldog
2011-12-09, 06:32 PM
To be honest, I would be more brutal then the DM, mainly because the DN wouldn't lose anything valuable.

Darth_Versity
2011-12-10, 12:09 PM
A better question would be why the heck Kord should care about if a small spot on his Infinite plane should get unhallowed for a short while.

Personaly i think its bad gm'ing on the line of "rock falls, everybody dies"

Your not sure why a good aligned god would care that a section of his home plane has been turned into a corrupted area of absolute evil? Wow, I wouldnt want to worship you if you got raised to godhood!

And unhallow isn't a limited duration spell, only the spell effect linked to it is limited.

Emmerask
2011-12-10, 01:35 PM
A better question would be why the heck Kord should care about if a small spot on his Infinite plane should get unhallowed for a short while.

Personaly i think its bad gm'ing on the line of "rock falls, everybody dies"

Actions have consequences, establishing this is the mark of a good dm not a bad one.
And the rock falls everyone dies is not a good analogy because that is a completely random act while what happened is a consequence of an action.

Also if I remember correctly these infinite planes are also the home of infinite solars so spotting the culprit is not that far fetched, then Kord would send something that is certain to punish the wrongdoer, it really doesn´t matter what creature is send because it would be likely to deal with him swiftly anyway.

A good analogy would have been
DM: you are in a large cavern deep underground that seems to be supported by only one pillar in the middle...
Player: ...I DISINTEGRATE THE PILLAR!!!
DM: ...Rocks fall everyone dies...

If players do monumental stupid things then monumental stupid things happen to them, any dm who lets such things slip... well I would not play one second under them tbh because a game where actions can´t have negative consequences is pretty boring.

The only thing I can see which could have been handled a bit better is too actually ask the player if he REALLY wants to do that, especially if its a new player but that is all the reaction was okay because in the end it matters very little if a solar or other similarly powerful creature would have mopped the floor with the offender or an avatar of a deity.

Greyfeld85
2011-12-10, 03:57 PM
I tend to view the Chaos/Law axis as an adverb that describes how people go about the Good/Evil axis.

Basically, I consider whether the person is good, neutral or evil first. And then, I decide whether that character upholds that value through law, chaos, or some form of neutrality.

Obviously, there are a few exceptions, such as when a LN character cares about upholding the law more than they do about the tenants of right and wrong, but I feel that's because the "neutral" part of the G/E axis is more open to interpretation than its extremes tend to be; afterall, neutrality can describe intentional balance or total apathy, and everything in-between.

But since I think that Good/Evil is far more subjective than Law/Chaos, it makes sense to me that a character's alignment be centered on whether they're a good or evil person, with the axis of law and chaos used as an addendum to describe how they go about holding up their virtues, rather than actual virtues in and of themselves.

Greyfeld85
2011-12-10, 04:08 PM
Concerning the OP's question, the player just sounds like a whiner lol.

I don't know if you gave him any hints that something bad would happen (afterall, as intelligent as some players are, it's not unusual to forget things, or completely overlook something that should be completely obvious), but the overall response seems fair to me.

Darth_Versity
2011-12-10, 05:59 PM
The only thing I can see which could have been handled a bit better is too actually ask the player if he REALLY wants to do that, especially if its a new player but that is all the reaction was okay because in the end it matters very little if a solar or other similarly powerful creature would have mopped the floor with the offender or an avatar of a deity.

No, we're all seasoned players and I had already babied them with a few things before that and eventually put the rule down that there are no more "idiot" hints and no take backs. They are all adults and can live with the consequences of they're actions.

EagleWiz
2011-12-11, 12:22 AM
Personally I wouldn't have had him fight Kord himself, but a few of his more powerful minions, but that's irreverent. . The guy tried to transform an area literally made of goodness into an area of evil. Of course someone would notice and curbstomp him. Ignoring the duel thing entirely, he tried to unhallow part of a plane of good. He should be grateful he got off with a slap on the wrist.

The Glyphstone
2011-12-11, 10:35 AM
Couldn't he just cast in during the duel? or is it like a 10 minute casting time?

Also I feel like you didn't read my whole post.

Edit: why would the paladin agree to duel on an unhallowed area. He could simply ask to fight elsewhere if that were the case.

2nd Edit: Shouldn't a 20th level paladin just waxing the floor with a an evil spell caster anyway?

3rd Edit: Ever hear of appropriate CR encounters?

4th Edit: I wasn't trying to sound confrontational either simply trying to make a point and yes I read more than the first post.


Reprimand, you are completely missing the point.

The paladin didn't know the area was going to be unhallowed.

The paladin might have wiped the floor with the DN, but the duel never happened (though, I believe, for somewhat different reasons), and Kord intervened not because of the duel, but because of the unhallow spell.

It clearly wasn't intended as an encounter. It was intended as a lesson. "Don't **** on the front lawn. The dude owning the place is a DEITY."

Not to mention, the OP said the DN deliberately sought this fight out. It wasn't an encounter, it was a "I want to fight that 20th level dude there for major XP!" In this case, it would be awful DMing to say "Ok, you can fight him. Also, he mysteriously loses 1/3 of his paladin abilities for no reason so that he becomes an appropriate fight for you."

DrDeth
2011-12-12, 11:29 AM
No, we're all seasoned players and I had already babied them with a few things before that and eventually put the rule down that there are no more "idiot" hints and no take backs. They are all adults and can live with the consequences of they're actions.

Umm, either he’s a CE (rarely a good idea) necromancer who challenger a Pally 9 levels above him to get some solo eps (which he shouldn’t have been allowed ) and who took many ranks in a silly “profession” – *OR* he’s a adult. Pick one.

Darth_Versity
2011-12-12, 12:43 PM
Umm, either he’s a CE (rarely a good idea) necromancer who challenger a Pally 9 levels above him to get some solo eps (which he shouldn’t have been allowed ) and who took many ranks in a silly “profession” – *OR* he’s a adult. Pick one.

LOL. He's 'technically' an adult (he's 27) so i will treat him as one in terms of consequences. That doesn't mean he acts like one!:smallamused:

Tyndmyr
2011-12-12, 12:49 PM
Not to mention, the OP said the DN deliberately sought this fight out. It wasn't an encounter, it was a "I want to fight that 20th level dude there for major XP!" In this case, it would be awful DMing to say "Ok, you can fight him. Also, he mysteriously loses 1/3 of his paladin abilities for no reason so that he becomes an appropriate fight for you."

Correct. I don't have a problem with shutting the player down, merely the style with which it was done.

You want something that doesn't sound too much like the DM thinking up a random, easy excuse to say no. Not because he deserves a yes or anything...just because you don't want to break immersion for everyone.


Personally I wouldn't have had him fight Kord himself, but a few of his more powerful minions, but that's irreverent. . The guy tried to transform an area literally made of goodness into an area of evil. Of course someone would notice and curbstomp him. Ignoring the duel thing entirely, he tried to unhallow part of a plane of good. He should be grateful he got off with a slap on the wrist.

Someone, yes. An avatar of a god personally intervening? Less likely.

Also, for reference, Unhallow is a full 24 hours to cast. Considering he only had one day to the duel...that's cutting it remarkably close.


Honestly, a better analogy than the CEO would rather be the security guard in front of the video surveillance monitors. The guy who see's everything, including the guy smoking in a no smoking area near some incredibly flamable objects/gas/whatever that could burn the building down.

Oh? Why is Kord more like the security guard than the CEO?

And what, exactly, do these metaphorical flammable objects/gas/whatever represent? Unhallow will not make the entire plane explode or burn down.

Reluctance
2011-12-12, 01:22 PM
Correct. I don't have a problem with shutting the player down, merely the style with which it was done.

You want something that doesn't sound too much like the DM thinking up a random, easy excuse to say no. Not because he deserves a yes or anything...just because you don't want to break immersion for everyone.

...

Someone, yes. An avatar of a god personally intervening? Less likely.

Imagine the PCs cast the chaotic version of Unhallow in Mechanus. Without cracking your books or taking more than a few seconds to think about it, what stops by to tell him to knock it off? Or is it better to tell the DN's player that he can paralyze the game at whim by doing something incredibly stupid and forcing the DM to flip through rulebooks until he finds the thing that best fits his needs.

Yes, an avatar is a bit over the top. So's a solar. It's just that after you get past the big iconic monsters, who really has the headspace to devote to "here's a reasonably overpowered monster to come curbstomp you when you go flashing your ass at powerful people in public"?

Tyndmyr
2011-12-12, 01:55 PM
Imagine the PCs cast the chaotic version of Unhallow in Mechanus. Without cracking your books or taking more than a few seconds to think about it, what stops by to tell him to knock it off? Or is it better to tell the DN's player that he can paralyze the game at whim by doing something incredibly stupid and forcing the DM to flip through rulebooks until he finds the thing that best fits his needs.

Yes, an avatar is a bit over the top. So's a solar. It's just that after you get past the big iconic monsters, who really has the headspace to devote to "here's a reasonably overpowered monster to come curbstomp you when you go flashing your ass at powerful people in public"?

When something comes by to monitor the area(plane of law, they likely do this in a notably mechanical fashion), it'll probably be one of the various constructs(Marut being one of em, can't think of the others offhand, but they're all in the monster manual together. Could find it in a second).

It will almost certainly deal with this by notifying higher ups and giving a warning to the transgressor.

There will no avatar poofing in without explanation.

Good plane? Probably a planetar. Or a local cleric or pally or some such. How you deal with them determines how things play out.

Gullintanni
2011-12-12, 02:43 PM
...break immersion for everyone...Unhallow is a full 24 hours to cast.

Cut for relevance. I'm on the side of those who said this is a bit heavy handed but given that the spell has a 24 hour casting time, then Kord, a deity, has one full day of time to notice somebody pouring black ink all over the white sheet of paper that is his plane of existence, and respond accordingly.

Depending on the fluff surrounding the actions...for example,

"...A ring of Celestials surround the area as your dark energies stain the ground beneath you. Their eyes burn with fury as they bear witness to the desecration of their sacred battlefield. One begins casting a spell."

DM: Make a spellcraft check.
DN:-roll-
DM:-success-

"You successfully identify the spell as a Sending spell. Minutes pass, as you continue your casting. Eventually, the ring parts, making way for a hulking, giant of a man. His divinity permeates the very air around you, and the resolute blackness of your spell seems to drain away from the earth as he approaches. He draws a weapon and..."

DM: Roll initiative. What was your roll? 29? Yeah he still rolled higher.
DN: But you didn't roll!
DM: Fine. -rolls- He won.
DN: You didn't even look at the die.
DM: Tell you what, make a knowledge religion check.
DN: ...uhh...I rolled a 30.
DM: The man is Kord. You defiled his land. Suck it up princess.

"...and you die."

DN: ...I hate this game.

If it went down as above? IMHO, you'd have earned your death legitimately. Still a bit on the heavy handed side, I mean, the ring of celestials could just as easily do the job that you called in Kord to do...but it's defensible. At the very least, the sense of immersion is preserved.

Reluctance
2011-12-12, 05:06 PM
Tyn is right that, if the OP had to do it all over again, something less than an avatar would be more appropriate. And permadeath for casting an evil spell is like summary execution for shoplifting. It's grossly disproportionate unless the players enjoy hard mode.

To go back to the CEO metaphor, though, it's like being caught smoking by the CEO. Incredibly unlikely that he just happens across you, but if it happens, sucks to be you. It's much more likely that you'll be caught by your boss (a high-level cleric or similarly beefy celestial), which will leave you just as fired. Someone powerful was liable to come along and squish the PC as a warning. It's just the OP's blanking on a more appropriate foe and the character's extreme bad luck that an avatar of Kord happened to be in the area that made things quite so extreme.

Mnemnosyne
2011-12-12, 06:35 PM
Imagine the PCs cast the chaotic version of Unhallow in Mechanus. Without cracking your books or taking more than a few seconds to think about it, what stops by to tell him to knock it off? Or is it better to tell the DN's player that he can paralyze the game at whim by doing something incredibly stupid and forcing the DM to flip through rulebooks until he finds the thing that best fits his needs.

Yes, an avatar is a bit over the top. So's a solar. It's just that after you get past the big iconic monsters, who really has the headspace to devote to "here's a reasonably overpowered monster to come curbstomp you when you go flashing your ass at powerful people in public"?
Off the top of my head, on Mechanus? Modrons, obviously. A squad of pentadrones investigates at the appointed time. If/when the player(s) defeat the pentadrones, then a decaton might personally lead a larger group of pentadrones after the offender, and there would be escalation. Because that's how it works on the plane of ultimate law.

On Ysgard, things are clearly a lot more chaotic. I'd probably roll percentile dice to see how long it takes someone to even pass by the area and notice, then I'd roll off a quick chart that pops into my head that includes some really powerful stuff and some not-so-powerful stuff. Maybe a chart including a solar, asuras, deva, planetar, and then probably throw in something layer-specific like fire giants in Muspelheim. And add in a couple proxies of various gods that have their domains on Ysgard. Or, I might pick something at random off the top of my head, it doesn't really matter. But I wouldn't even consider sending the avatar of a god after a player...in pretty much any circumstances. If they were actually in the god's realm is the only way I'd even have a god potentially get involved at all, and in that case they'd just send a proxy or a powerful celestial.

None of that required more than a few moments of thought to determine, it's pretty obvious if you know the terrain. There may be something even more Ysgard-appropriate to send, but I don't know it off-hand, and it's a chaotic plane anyway, so who cares if it's the perfect response?

Doug Lampert
2011-12-12, 06:44 PM
Tyn is right that, if the OP had to do it all over again, something less than an avatar would be more appropriate. And permadeath for casting an evil spell is like summary execution for shoplifting. It's grossly disproportionate unless the players enjoy hard mode.

To go back to the CEO metaphor, though, it's like being caught smoking by the CEO. Incredibly unlikely that he just happens across you, but if it happens, sucks to be you. It's much more likely that you'll be caught by your boss (a high-level cleric or similarly beefy celestial), which will leave you just as fired. Someone powerful was liable to come along and squish the PC as a warning. It's just the OP's blanking on a more appropriate foe and the character's extreme bad luck that an avatar of Kord happened to be in the area that made things quite so extreme.

You get crushed by overwhelming force for being a git == You get crushed by overwhelming force for being a git.

I don't see why it matters that the overwhelming force was an avatar of a god rather than a squad of solars or planetars. Level 11 with decent play by the planetars it comes to the same thing either way.

And it wasn't even a permadeath.

If anything the DM went WAY too easy on the guy.

RedWarrior0
2011-12-14, 09:51 PM
What I would have done: the paladin comes back about four rounds before the unhallow is cast and goes for a mounted holy lance charge smite. Also, if the DN was undead, Turn/Destroy, with extra destroy.

GreenSerpent
2011-12-14, 10:42 PM
An interesting way to deal with the problem would be Kord's Avatar Plane Shifting him out of Ysgard to a location (we'll call it Area A). The avatar could then demand some variety of recompense from the rest of the party in order to allow the necromancer back from Area A, as well as disspelling the unhallow.

Might be interesting as if they accept the DN has got the party annoyed at losing them time, money and magic items, if they do not then they have to plane shift about to find him, wasting the party time and resources.

Neo_Leviathan
2011-12-15, 12:40 AM
It's the casting of Unhallow which pisses him off. Also, cheating in a one-on-one duel (by bringing in allies) would rather piss him off.

You agreed to a one-on-one duel. Then you bring in an ally. Duel null and void, proceed to curb-stomp.
.

I think this is definitely the big one.
Throwing an Unhallow in Ysgard would no doubt be frowned upon, but this is the plane that has probably seen every spell in existence infinity times over cast there, so it likely wouldn't attract personal attention.

Cheating by tipping out a bagful of undead into a duel? Against a Paladin? Now that is going to get you spanked by whatever powerful beings happen to be nearby.

Tyndmyr
2011-12-15, 11:21 AM
You get crushed by overwhelming force for being a git == You get crushed by overwhelming force for being a git.

I don't see why it matters that the overwhelming force was an avatar of a god rather than a squad of solars or planetars. Level 11 with decent play by the planetars it comes to the same thing either way.

And it wasn't even a permadeath.

If anything the DM went WAY too easy on the guy.

It doesn't matter from a mechanics perspective. It matters from a story perspective.

If someone is doing something ridiculous, it's better to have his actions fail because of the natural reactions of ordinary members of the universe than because the DM does something ridiculous back.

If, at any point in telling the tale, the logical reason for something happening is "the DM thought that was crazy", you have a break in immersion. Take care of poor in char decisions in game, with the minimal amount of unrealistic actions. It's like "rocks fall, everyone dies" as an answer to someone trying to sell iron from walls of stone. A better answer is something based on the fact that it's a common spell in the setting. Someone else is bound to have already considered this.

Doug Lampert
2011-12-15, 05:16 PM
It doesn't matter from a mechanics perspective. It matters from a story perspective.

If someone is doing something ridiculous, it's better to have his actions fail because of the natural reactions of ordinary members of the universe than because the DM does something ridiculous back.

If, at any point in telling the tale, the logical reason for something happening is "the DM thought that was crazy", you have a break in immersion. Take care of poor in char decisions in game, with the minimal amount of unrealistic actions. It's like "rocks fall, everyone dies" as an answer to someone trying to sell iron from walls of stone. A better answer is something based on the fact that it's a common spell in the setting. Someone else is bound to have already considered this.

Crap. The objections are entirely and solely based on the lack of a metagame issue of dropping a god on someone WITHOUT warning! There is no realism objection to an avatar, the realism problem would be with a warning being issued.

The Avatar just showing up IS realistic! The reason the God HAS avatars is so that he can deal with MANY problems at once and be in MANY places at once. This is a problem, it's on his home plane, he'd want it dealt with. Thus if there happens to be an avatar close by he'll send that rather than the squad of solars.
Maybe that it's an avatar rather than a squad of solars is a 1% chance, maybe it's a 20% chance, we don't have enough information to say. But, it is utterly clear that it's a non zero chance. The ONLY setting based objection is that a divine avatar might well make it permanent to avoid having to waste time on this particular waste of of air again.

The objections are metagame based purely on a non-realism based claim that there should be warnings prior to an overwhelming encounter. You can't then turn arround and say it's a realism issue. Realistically what he was doing results in permanent, no resurection, death. And an avatar is a perfectly reasonable delivery vehicle for that realistic response.

VanBuren
2011-12-16, 03:03 PM
It doesn't matter from a mechanics perspective. It matters from a story perspective.

And the story perspective justifies what happened.


If someone is doing something ridiculous, it's better to have his actions fail because of the natural reactions of ordinary members of the universe than because the DM does something ridiculous back.

What is ridiculous about a god taking action on his own plane because someone is both explicitly offending his portfolio and actively defiling his plane? You continually assert that this doesn't make sense, now I would like to understand why.


If, at any point in telling the tale, the logical reason for something happening is "the DM thought that was crazy", you have a break in immersion. Take care of poor in char decisions in game, with the minimal amount of unrealistic actions. It's like "rocks fall, everyone dies" as an answer to someone trying to sell iron from walls of stone. A better answer is something based on the fact that it's a common spell in the setting. Someone else is bound to have already considered this.

We should be thankful then, that "the DM thought that was crazy" was not the logical reasoning.

killem2
2011-12-16, 05:31 PM
What is ridiculous about a god taking action on his own plane because someone is both explicitly offending his portfolio and actively defiling his plane? You continually assert that this doesn't make sense, now I would like to understand why.


Equal and opposite reaction.

To me, looking it all over, I would have gladly let the paladin destroy the necro mancer. Utterly detroy him.

A level 11 necro mancer is like a bottle cap dropped onto jupiter, when comparing the reaction given to the action completed.

You, (and many others in this thread), seem to think this was a legion of undead that would make the orc fleets of LOTR look like a day care center, and I'm just not getting this.

It's like a the state FBI, dealing with a domestic dispute, at the other end of the state.

The Glyphstone
2011-12-16, 06:59 PM
I'd call it more like the cranky old guy with the shotgun coming out on his porch to threaten the teenager prankster taking a dump on his front lawn. Grossly excessive force in retribution for a 'crime' that's more of a direct personal insult than anything substantial.


(BTW, isn't 'State FBI' an oxymoron by definition?)

NichG
2011-12-16, 08:10 PM
Location is key here I think. It's not 'cranky old man with a shotgun'. This is the deity's home plane, a place that living mortals just don't go to normally. Any living mortals there are powerful beings: legendary heroes (Lv11 qualifies for Legend Lore...). I think it bears noting that a Lv11 party, especially an optimized one, can take down a Balor, a Solar, etc (not to say that even a deity in D&D can read off character level to know) So given that other party members are in the area, and this is a god with thousands of years of experience, why risk it with a proportional response when this might be a group that can slaughter a legion of angels?

VanBuren
2011-12-17, 11:50 AM
Equal and opposite reaction.

To me, looking it all over, I would have gladly let the paladin destroy the necro mancer. Utterly detroy him.

A level 11 necro mancer is like a bottle cap dropped onto jupiter, when comparing the reaction given to the action completed.

You, (and many others in this thread), seem to think this was a legion of undead that would make the orc fleets of LOTR look like a day care center, and I'm just not getting this.

It's like a the state FBI, dealing with a domestic dispute, at the other end of the state.

I do not think it was a "legion of undead". As I, and many of those others have continually stated, is that the Necromancer was casting a spell that explicitly took some of the holy and good plane and was turning it into something corrupted and evil. Literally twisting the very home plane of the god into a twisted mockery. I'm just not getting why people have a problem with the deity intervening to protect the nature of his own plane.

Yes, there may have been other, better ways to enforce that, but you know what? He got a True Rez out of the deal and no lasting harm was done, so it really doesn't even matter.

wiimanclassic
2012-01-05, 07:13 PM
I think he got what he deserved. A little heavy handed but also fitting. I would tell them when they started casting "You wanna **** with a deities realm? Haha, my god you are a suicidal little thing aren't you?" because honestly, what do they think will happen?

Lycar
2012-01-07, 03:28 PM
3rd Edit: Ever hear of appropriate CR encounters?
Ever read the DMG? Especially page 49? That little table in the lower right corner?

By the holy RAW, a full 5 % of all encounters are supposed to be 5+ (read: 5 or more) levels above the party's. If the party in question happens to be a sole Dread Necromancer encountering a lv. 20 Paladin, well, that is just tough luck for the poor DN.

CR appropriate are a mere 50 % of the encounters a party faces by RAW.

So what was your complaint again?

Lycar

ahenobarbi
2012-01-07, 04:43 PM
For what it is worth, I feel that the punishment was either just, or very light-handed. I am basing this off of the Unhallow effect, not the duel or what not.
My reasoning is below, if any want to see it.
The Heroic Domain of Ysgard is on the good side of the outer planes. This means that it is under constant threat (if not action) of invasion from the evil aligned planes. I am quite certain that there are Devils constantly looking in on the whole plane, to see if there are any exploitable weaknesses. It is one of Kord's jobs, as a Deific caretaker of this plane, to ensure that this does not happen to the best of his ability. The duel itself is really just par for the course for the plane in question. The Unhallow is the big thing. Being cast, it represents a weakness that those of evil alignment can exploit to attempt an invasion of the realm. That is the main reason why I think that the punishment is, at the minimum, acceptable. Honestly, when your domain is under constant threat of invasion, a seditious element is dealt with immediately and harshly to prevent damage to the domain from said element.
This is also why it had to be an Avatar of Kord, rather than a gaggle of good aligned entities noticing and dog-piling the Dread Necromancer. The action had to be stomped out, fast. The unhallow basically had to never have existed, to prevent other external forces from utilizing it to cause havoc in the realm. Anything less than Kord's intervention brings an amount of uncertainty.
I probably would have done something far worse, maybe kill then transport to the Abyss or even Baator. What the DN got was basically a spanking and told to sit in the corner for a day.

Exactly. I'd add that if I were the player I'd be happy that it was some god who did it. Because he settled for preventing problem with a tiny punishment. If it was someone less busy they might take some extra effort to make sure I won't cause problem anymore.

Edit: For those who say "this is infinite plane so finite unhallowed space doesn't matter". Evil planes are infinite. So if you don't prevent every unhallowing they will unhallow the whole place pretty fast.

myancey
2012-01-07, 08:52 PM
While I agree that the punishment was justified, Kord prolly should have just sent an agent of his to deal with the issue. MM's are filled with goodly agents of the gods to deal with threats both on their home planes and the material plane.

This would have also allowed the player a fighting chance to defend himself. I doubt a major deity as Kord would have gotten off his throne to deal with anyone as low as 11th level. That's like outer plane noob level.

Grendus
2012-01-08, 12:46 AM
Personally, I would have required a deific level CL check to even cast unhallow in Ysgard. It's a plane made of pure good energy, you can't just taint the landscape with negative energy like you can on the more neutrally aligned Prime Material. I'd require something like a DC 50 CL check, he's literally trying to overcome a god's spell resistance.

That said, having an Avatar of Kord pop up to kill him wasn't disproportional to his actions. He literally tried to push evil into a good aligned plane, gods have chained people to rocks and had their livers pecked out for eternity for less. Heck, considering that Ysgard will true resurrect him the next day, you were downright generous.

Snowbluff
2012-01-08, 01:19 AM
Seems like neither side will reach an accord.

Note to self, learn to sage on this forum...