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ExemplarofAvg
2011-12-08, 11:04 PM
I have just rediscovered the Thief Acrobat, and I must say I forgot why I stopped playing it (although it might have something to do with a party that at one time consisted of two melee/trap rogues, 1 acrobatic rogue (me), a ninja (machine gun assassin) and a warforged monk.. (don't ask)

Anyways, I like it, but 5 levels just doesn't feel like enough for me. I want to make a class that can swing trapeze with 'The Flying Graysons' or flip and cartwheel into someone to help out Mai and Azula. To that end, I want to try/attempt to make a "Gymnast" (Temporary Name) class that uses the acrobatic skills (pretty much all that have an armour check penalty. That being said, here's what I've made up on a brainstorm sheet so far.


Gymnast
Med Bab, d6 Hp
Light Armor, Simple weapons, finessable weapons
High Ref and Fort Saves

4 or 6+Int Skills
Skills: Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Swim Tumble, (Others? Spot, Listen... etc.)

Circus Skills: Bonus to skills that have an armor check penalty, gain a bonus equal to (half or one quarter) their level. (ignore the armor check penalty for light armor.)

Bonus to Initiative and AC based on Int
Speed Bonus?
Climb Speed equal to half move speed -> Full Move Speed
Pass over uneven terrain.
(Improved)Evasion
Uncanny Dodge
Trap Sense
Unarmed Strike or Skirmish, or Both?
Agile Athlete Feat ability(ROTW), Climb and Jump, now Dex rather than Str
Thief Acrobat Abilities.
Fast Acrobatics, No penalty for movement with skills.
Kip-Up, stand from prone as a free action.
Steady Stance, not considered flat-footed when balancing or climbing.
Agile Fighting, bonus to AC, does not have penalty to melee attack or AC when kneeling, sitting or prone.
Slow Fall.
Acrobatic Charge (Pass over uneven terrain.)


Yes I realize that an Rogue/Thief-Acrobat could do all of this, with relative ease. But I'm trying to create a top of the circus tent scout/secondary or tertiary melee class That focuses mostly on Dex and Int.

Comments, Queries, Concerns, Questions. Input, Output, Orc with Shotput.

ExemplarofAvg
2011-12-10, 09:08 AM
{table=head] Lvl | Bab |Fort| Ref| Will| Class| Speed
1| +0| +2| +2| +0| Circus Skills, Practiced, Acrobatics, Slow Fall 10ft, Kip Up,| +0
2| +1| +3| +3| +0| Fast Acrobatics, Collision +2d6| +0|
3| +2| +3| +3| +1| Evasion, Agility, Slow Fall 20ft,| +10|
4 |+3| +4| +4| +1| Uncanny Dodge, Collision +4d6| +10
5 |+3| +4| +4| +1| Slow Fall 30ft| +10|
6| +4| +5| +5| +2| Collision +6d6| +20
7 |+5| +5| +5| +2| Slow Fall 40ft, Acrobatic Charge|+20
8| +6/+1| +6| +6| +2|Improved Uncanny Dodge, Collision +8d6| +20
9 |+6/+1| +6| +6| +3| Slow Fall 50ft, Improved Evasion| +30
10 |+7/+2 |+7 |+7 |+3 |Collision +10d6 |+30
11| +8/+3| +7| +7| +3| Slow Fall 60ft|+30
12| +9/+4 |+8 |+8| +4| Collision +12d6| +40
13 |+9/+4| +8| +8| +4| Slow Fall 70ft|+40
14| +10/+5| +9| +9| +4| Collision +12d6| +40
15| +11/+6/+1 |+9| +9 |+5 |Slow Fall 80ft|+50
16 |+12/+7/+2| +10| +10| +5 |Collision +16d6| +50
17 |+12/+7/+2| +10| +10| +5 |Slow Fall 90ft, |+50
18| +13/+8/+3 |+11| +11| +6| Collision +18d6| +60
19| +14/+9/+4 |+11 |+11| +6| Slow Fall 100ft | +60
20| +15/+10/+5 |+12| +12| +6|Collision +20d6| +60
[/table]


d6 Hp

6+Int Skills Skills: Balance, Climb, Craft, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Profession, Ride, Spot, Swim, Tumble, Use Rope.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Circusers are proficienct with all Light weapons as well as the Sling, Quarterstaff, Whip, Bolas, Net and Shuriken. Circusers are proficient with light armor, in fact any armor heavier than light interferes with their movement and therefore their class abilities.

Circus Skills(Ex): Bonus to skills that have an armor check penalty, gain a bonus equal to (half or one quarter) their level. (ignore the armor check penalty for light armor.) They are not considered flat-footed while using these skills. This ability works only if the Circuser is wearing light or no armor and carries no more than a light load.

Practiced Acrobatics(Ex): A Circuser have practiced certain movements so often that they often are able produce some feats from memory. So long as they are not flat-footed they gain a bonus to Initiative and Ac equal to their Intelligence Modifier. This ability works only if the Circuser is wearing light or no armor and carries no more than a light load.

Slow Fall: At 1st level or higher, a Circuser within armís reach of a wall can use it to slow her descent. When first using this ability, she takes damage as if the fall were 20 feet shorter than it actually is. The Circuserís ability to slow her fall (that is, to reduce the effective distance of the fall when next to a wall) improves with her Circuser level. This ability works only if the Circuser is wearing light or no armor and carries no more than a light load.

Kip Up (Ex): A Circuser can stand up from a prone position as a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. This ability works only if the Circuser is wearing light or no armor and carries no more than a light load.

Fast Acrobatics (Ex): A thief-acrobat can avoid the normal penalties for accelerated movement while using her acrobatic talents. She ignores the normal -5 penalty when making a Balance check moving at her full normal speed. She can climb at half her speed as a move action without taking a -5 penalty on her Climb check. Finally she can tumble at her full speed without taking the normal -10 penalty on her tumble check.

Collision (Ex): At 2nd Level the Circuser gains the ability to use the moment from their movements to better affect their opponents, so long as they move 30ft or more in a straight line they deal an extra 2d6 damage to their target, the 30ft of straight movement can be generated from any direction running up the wall, jumping off a building, or directly running at the target, any feats you have that can modify your charge may be applied to your Collision ability.

Agility(Ex): At 3rd level or higher a Circuser gains and enhancement bonus to her speed as shown in the table. This ability works only if the Circuser is wearing light or no armor and carries no more than a light load.

Evasion (Ex): At 3rd level or higher if a Circuser makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a Circuser is using light or no armor. A helpless Circuser does not gain the benefits of evasion.

Uncanny Dodge(Ex) : Starting at 4th level, a Circuser can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a Circuser already has uncanny dodge from a different class she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A Circuser of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked. This defense denies Rogues the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more Rogue levels than the target does. If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum Rogue level required to flank the character.

Improved Evasion (Ex): At 9th level, a Circuserís evasion ability improves. She still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, but henceforth she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless Circuser does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.



OH NO, HELP, The Build developed a mind of it's own and devoured a Monk, A Rogue and a Scout. It has all of their powers and none of their weaknesses, with a 10ft(5ft Step) using a Flurrying Skirmishing Sneak Attack this Class can deal 90d6 damage at Level 20, OR 18d6 per attack!! AAAHHHH, RUN, ALL THE OTHER KIDS WITH THEIR PUMPED UP KICKS BETTER RUN, BETTER RUN, FASTER THAN THE GYMNAST. (Alright, so that's not exactly how it happened. But I did it one way, then went, but what if it had this.. and this, and this, AND THEN, No "and then"! , AND THEN. Now I ask you playgrounders, because it's not balanced, at least to my eyes, Rip it down, Tear out what isn't necessary, treat it like a hoarder.) Please and Thank You. I have another version that has what I think it should have but I'm not entirely sure.

EDIT, Fixing it along the way.

jiriku
2011-12-10, 11:56 AM
Nice idea! I agree, this has gobbled up rather too many features, and is in need of some unique features of its own, but you've got a promising start, here.

First: basic chassis looks great. You might add a few class skills to give room for various gymnast archetypes (I'm thinking of Knowledges in geography and local, plus perhaps Gather Information and Sleight of Hand). But then again, one could just as easily argue for a rogue/gymnast multiclass to fulfill those archetypes, so it's not essential.

Next: Damage and AC are out of control. I'd suggest you remove EITHER skirmish (for a slightly less powerful gmynast) OR sneak attack + the AC bonus from Practiced Acrobatics (for a noticeably less powerful gymnast). I'm leaning towards option 2, if for no reason other than skirmish being a solid thematic fit for the gymnast. Also, I'm going to recommend some other changes that make skirmish much cooler for a gymnast than it is for a scout.

After: Your class features are fighting one another, mostly because they're borrowed from so many sources. You need to break down some walls between them. Allow flurry of blows to be used as part of a normal attack, a full attack, or a charge (this makes skirmish much better).

Make Circus Skills a competence bonus, so it won't stack with normal skill-boosting items, and make it bigger. MUCH bigger. I'd suggest +20 by 20th level as a bare minimum, but +60 or +80 would be much better. Epic skill uses are pretty competitive with mid-level spells and martial maneuvers, and these skill bonuses will make you relevant and useful in many ways. Also, I'd narrow the scope of Circus skills and make it applicable to Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Jump and Tumble only. Gymnasts are not amazingly adept at opening locks, picking pockets, or skulking around in the shadows.

Defenses: I'd suggest you toss Trap Sense for a scaling bonus to touch AC (capped at no more than the character's normal AC). Improved Uncanny Dodge and Uncanny Dodge are pretty weak features and don't really carry their weight as class features - grant them both at the same level (it'll be fine, really). Evasion and Improved Evasion need to come about 3-4 levels earlier than they do.

Kinda tapped out for inspiration right now. Once you clear out the extra features and we see where the dead levels are, though, I think the class will guide us as to where it needs to grow.

Seerow
2011-12-10, 12:02 PM
permanent Freedom of Movement and the ability to negate squeezing penalties could probably fit here.

ExemplarofAvg
2011-12-10, 12:49 PM
Nice idea! I agree, this has gobbled up rather too many features, and is in need of some unique features of its own, but you've got a promising start, here.

First: basic chassis looks great. You might add a few class skills to give room for various gymnast archetypes (I'm thinking of Knowledges in geography and local, plus perhaps Gather Information and Sleight of Hand). But then again, one could just as easily argue for a rogue/gymnast multiclass to fulfill those archetypes, so it's not essential.

Next: Damage and AC are out of control. I'd suggest you remove EITHER skirmish (for a slightly less powerful gmynast) OR sneak attack + the AC bonus from Practiced Acrobatics (for a noticeably less powerful gymnast). I'm leaning towards option 2, if for no reason other than skirmish being a solid thematic fit for the gymnast. Also, I'm going to recommend some other changes that make skirmish much cooler for a gymnast than it is for a scout.

After: Your class features are fighting one another, mostly because they're borrowed from so many sources. You need to break down some walls between them. Allow flurry of blows to be used as part of a normal attack, a full attack, or a charge (this makes skirmish much better).

Make Circus Skills a competence bonus, so it won't stack with normal skill-boosting items, and make it bigger. MUCH bigger. I'd suggest +20 by 20th level as a bare minimum, but +60 or +80 would be much better. Epic skill uses are pretty competitive with mid-level spells and martial maneuvers, and these skill bonuses will make you relevant and useful in many ways. Also, I'd narrow the scope of Circus skills and make it applicable to Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Jump and Tumble only. Gymnasts are not amazingly adept at opening locks, picking pockets, or skulking around in the shadows.

Defenses: I'd suggest you toss Trap Sense for a scaling bonus to touch AC (capped at no more than the character's normal AC). Improved Uncanny Dodge and Uncanny Dodge are pretty weak features and don't really carry their weight as class features - grant them both at the same level (it'll be fine, really). Evasion and Improved Evasion need to come about 3-4 levels earlier than they do.

Kinda tapped out for inspiration right now. Once you clear out the extra features and we see where the dead levels are, though, I think the class will guide us as to where it needs to grow.

My version just has Skirmish, and Superior Unarmed Strike, no progression. No Flurry or Sneak. I just wanted to put the full carried away version. I kind of like the Practiced Acrobatics boosting both AC and Initiative. Just for the always ready on your toes thing that Gymnasts and Aikido Masters have going, they look like they are standing still, but can do hundreds of things from just muscle memory. My buddy was in Gymnastics for years, he'll do a standing backflip handspring tuck (as he calls it) from what seems like your basic step forward. (Really cool, is what I call it, Batman/Robin-esque for sure) Also full boost from circus skills, really? Also it doesn't apply to stuff like Disable Device or Open Lock. The ones it does apply to are, Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Tumble, Sleight of Hand and Swim. I like Hide and Move Silently in their, just so it can be a better scout/stealth character. Gymnasts are pretty nimble. Sleight of Hand Cross Classed would get a boost, but isn't a Skill I was really thinking of using. Also really +1 per level to those skills, I dunno I thought +10 was generous. Especially since anyone who takes Agile Athletics (and they really should) makes the Strength Skills, Dexterity, reducing MAD, heck with with weapon finesse you just need Dex, Int and Con, in that order. Uncanny Dodge was a way not to get sneak attacked, reflecting the always on their toes idea. Evasion and by extension improved evasion were scaled back due to number of class features. Gained earlier in what was my final cut. Scaling bonus to Touch AC, maybe Practiced Acrobatics could cover that, when flat footed Int to AC?

Also thoughts on designing a new feature to replace skirmish. I had one I used a while ago on what was a "Suicide Bomber" type class that was about hitting things with built up kinetic energy, their main schtick was a +nd# per 5ft traveled. Kind of like a Skirmish before Skirmish, without the AC boost. (scaled higher with levels)

P.S. My Final Gymnast had, well technically my final Circuser (Circus+Courser) had Skirmish, Slow Fall, Uncanny Dodges, Evasions, Thief-Acrobat tricks, Practiced Acrobatics, Agility and Trap Sense.



permanent Freedom of Movement and the ability to negate squeezing penalties could probably fit here.

Hmm, Good idea, squeezing penalties?, from Constrict/Grapple and the like?

Seerow
2011-12-10, 12:52 PM
Hmm, Good idea, squeezing penalties?, from Constrict/Grapple and the like?


I meant more like squeezing into a space too small for you to normally fit in.



Squeezing
In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isnít as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space you take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty to AC.

When a Large creature (which normally takes up four squares) squeezes into a space thatís one square wide, the creatureís miniature figure occupies two squares, centered on the line between the two squares. For a bigger creature, center the creature likewise in the area it squeezes into.

A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it canít end its movement in an occupied square.

To squeeze through or into a space less than half your spaceís width, you must use the Escape Artist skill. You canít attack while using Escape Artist to squeeze through or into a narrow space, you take a -4 penalty to AC, and you lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

ExemplarofAvg
2011-12-10, 01:47 PM
I meant more like squeezing into a space too small for you to normally fit in.

Wow, I have actually never encountered that before. I might've read it forever ago, but that's about it. Small spaces have never occurred in my groups. Even our Paladins don't have to worry about leaving their mounts behind and there's been a few big ones.

ExemplarofAvg
2011-12-12, 12:16 PM
Any other ideas, I'm still trying to make an additional damage mechanic for the Gymnast, or some other trade secret they can use. Main Archetype ideas come from **** Grayson, Jason Todd, Tim Drake, Ty Lee, Sahra... and that's all I can really think of.


Umm, Richard Grayson then...

Yitzi
2011-12-12, 01:28 PM
For another damage mechanic: Give the gymnast (I prefer that name to circuser) a boost to damage dependent on distance moved in a straight line before the attack. (Maybe 1d6 for every 10 feet beyond 30, and falling distance counts.) Also, if the gymnast jumps onto a soft target (such as an enemy), the fall is considered to be 10 feet less per level when determining the damage they take. (This would replace Slow Fall, and encourage "death from above" attacks).

As for depowering it, some ideas are:

1. Lower the skillpoints to 4/level and remove hide/move/spot/listen. The gymnast is agile, not sneaky.
2. Remove sneak attack, by the same logic.
3. Remove trap sense too.
4. Remove flurry of blows. This character will be moving around a lot anyway, so flurry of blows isn't such a great idea much of the time.
5. Change good saves to Reflex only.

Mulletmanalive
2011-12-12, 01:46 PM
There's an acrobat class in the Le Cirque Funeste link in my sig. Feel free to plunder it for ideas.

Mine was more angled at making them as creepy as humanly possible though, so it might not be your thing [though it would make a pretty good Ragdoll, as we're discussing DC characters]

ExemplarofAvg
2011-12-12, 03:45 PM
For another damage mechanic: Give the gymnast (I prefer that name to circuser) a boost to damage dependent on distance moved in a straight line before the attack. (Maybe 1d6 for every 10 feet beyond 30, and falling distance counts.) Also, if the gymnast jumps onto a soft target (such as an enemy), the fall is considered to be 10 feet less per level when determining the damage they take. (This would replace Slow Fall, and encourage "death from above" attacks).

As for depowering it, some ideas are:

1. Lower the skillpoints to 4/level and remove hide/move/spot/listen. The gymnast is agile, not sneaky.
2. Remove sneak attack, by the same logic.
3. Remove trap sense too.
4. Remove flurry of blows. This character will be moving around a lot anyway, so flurry of blows isn't such a great idea much of the time.
5. Change good saves to Reflex only.

Good mechanic, thank you, wanna suggest a name?
1. I was thinking of possible scouting capabilities.
2 and 4, long removed.
3. Yeah earlier it was suggested just an all round boost to touch AC.
5. Hmm, I suppose, I thought they'd be tougher.


There's an acrobat class in the Le Cirque Funeste link in my sig. Feel free to plunder it for ideas.

Mine was more angled at making them as creepy as humanly possible though, so it might not be your thing [though it would make a pretty good Ragdoll, as we're discussing DC characters]

Ragdoll, Shivers, Human Bodies should not move like that. But will do.

Yitzi
2011-12-12, 04:58 PM
Good mechanic, thank you, wanna suggest a name?

Impact damage.


1. I was thinking of possible scouting capabilities.

He's got enough of a role as the guy who can get anywhere and do it quickly and attack enemies out of nowhere; trying to give him too many roles is why you ended up with a hybrid of three other classes.


2 and 4, long removed.

Maybe you should update the second post then.


5. Hmm, I suppose, I thought they'd be tougher.

Not really; he's nimble, not tough.

ExemplarofAvg
2011-12-12, 05:39 PM
Impact damage.



He's got enough of a role as the guy who can get anywhere and do it quickly and attack enemies out of nowhere; trying to give him too many roles is why you ended up with a hybrid of three other classes.



Maybe you should update the second post then.



Not really; he's nimble, not tough.

I like it, but shouldn't slow fall be kept, it only says that their damage from the fall is reduced, not any poor bastard they choose to land on. Impact Damage shortened to Collision, thinking about calling it "Momentum" True, you understand the character quite well. Yeah, I should. EDIT MAGIC, GO!

EDIT:
Cleaned up the Abilities added changes
Chart looks kind of Barren now..
Circuser is a no, but I dislike Gymnast as well, it was only a working name.

Yitzi
2011-12-12, 07:09 PM
I like it, but shouldn't slow fall be kept, it only says that their damage from the fall is reduced, not any poor bastard they choose to land on.

The intent, however, is that their actual speed is slowed. The other reason that you need at least the new one as well is so that they can use it when jumping from a hanging chandelier when there's no wall nearby.


Cleaned up the Abilities added changes

I don't think Collision should be based on class level provided you move first. The idea is to make it based purely on distance moved that round beforehand; that way, it will go up slowly with level as the gymnast gains speed, but it'll still encourage him to keep moving a lot (rather than just a little) and will also encourage him to use the terrain to get better speed (through "falling"). The result will be more than just another skirmisher class.


Chart looks kind of Barren now..

You need more high-level abilities then. Perhaps some action economy abilities and/or celerity imitators would work well here.


Circuser is a no, but I dislike Gymnast as well, it was only a working name.

Athlete? (Many of these ideas are coming from a similar class I had vaguely planned, and "Gymnast" is, to me, a better option than any I'd thought of, but maybe you prefer "athlete" or "martial artist".)