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playswithfire
2011-12-10, 09:24 AM
So, although I've sort of stopped actively working on Tome of Tactics to deal with real life issues, it crops up in my mind every so often and it's spun off the idea of trying to collapse the tiers (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11714.0) a bit so that ToB/ToT type characters neither get completely overshadowed nor completely overshadow too many other characters.

The desired balance point/average tier is T3.5
and the allowed sources for base classes and variants are:
SRD, Complete Adventurer, Arcane, Divine, Psionic, Warrior, Tome of Battle, Tome of Tactics (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10428903), this page (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) except for spell to power

Current breakdown by tier

Tier 5

Divine Mind (Complete Psionic)
Fighter*
Monk*
Paladin*
Soulknife


Tier 4

Ninja (Complete Adventurer) with +Shinobi variant
Samurai (Complete Warrior) with +Bushi variant
Swashbuckler (Complete Warrior) with +Corsair variant
Hexblade (Complete Warrior)
Lurk (Complete Psionic)
Spellthief (Complete Adventurer)
Warlock (Complete Arcane)
Warmage (Complete Arcane)
Barbarian*
Ranger
Rogue*
Scout* (Complete Adventurer)


Tier 3

Ardent (Complete Psionic)
Bard
Crusader (Tome of Battle)
Druid with +Sublime Shapeshifter variant
+Firebrand
+Huntsman
+Mercenary
Psychic Warrior
Shugenja (Complete Divine)
+Soldier
Swordsage (Tome of Battle)
Warblade (Tome of Battle)


Tier 2

Cleric with +Avatar variant
Favored Soul (Complete Divine)
Psion/Erudite (Complete Psionic)
Sorcerer
Spirit Shaman (Complete Divine)
Wizard with +Practitioner variant
Wilder with +Disciplined Mind variant
Wu Jen (Complete Arcane)



class exists at more powerful tier with similar feel
moved to tier by variant
+ new class or variant added by Tome of Tactics
* Dippable

Removing the T6s:
Divine Mind: pulled up T5 by the Mind's Eye article
CW Samurai: I'd like to think the Bushi variant (Tome of Tactics) pulls it up to T5
Removing the T1s:
Erudite: falls to T2 with Psion without Spell to Power
Druid: must use the Sublime Shapeshifter variant (Tome of Tactics), which probably drops it to around T3 with Wildshaping Ranger.
That leaves the cleric and wizard, hence this thread.

In addition to lowering their tier, I'd also prefer that they be somewhat conceptually distinct from the other allowed full casters

Cleric
Must be distinct from: Favored Soul, Shugenja, and Spirit Shaman

All I've got so far is:
Cloistered Cleric
remove heavy armor proficiency
restrict the spells available to those of the Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, and Necromancy schools, plus those of their chosen domains.
And, obviously, no Nightsticks

Wizard
Must be distinct from Sorcerer, Warmange, and Wu Jen

I've really got nothing, other than:
Non-chaotic, since Wu Jen are non-lawful

Thoughts, anyone?

Aergoth
2011-12-10, 09:58 AM
Well, the thing that makes the wizard T1 is sheer versatility, which they get from their spellbook and being able to reset. Given 8 hours and the right spells, a wizard can prepare for just about anything. The free metamagic feats don't hurt either.

So, my suggestion would be something like this.

Arcane Fatigue(EX): If a wizard does not wait 10 hours between memorizing spells, they suffer from the effects of Arcane Fatigue A wizard under the effects of Arcane fatigue loses one spell slot of the highest level he can cast (minimum level 1), and cannot apply metamagics to their highest two levels of spells (minimum level 1). They also treat spells as though cast by a wizard one level lower for the purpose of determining damage, duration, range etc.
The effects of Arcane Fatigue last for eight hours + a number of hours equal to the highest level spell slot lost (minimum 9 hours), during which the wizard perform no actions but resting, eating, sleeping, and normal conversation.
A wizard who has expended all of his spells per day does not suffer from arcane fatigue.

Specialized wizard is also a way to go. Forcing wizards to specialize might curb things a little.

Seerow
2011-12-10, 10:08 AM
The Sorcerer IS the T2 wizard. Trying to balance the Wizard to t2 separate from the sorcerer doesn't make any sense.

jiriku
2011-12-10, 11:18 AM
I have written lower-balanced versions of the wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210595) and cleric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219109), using some thoughts and ideas from sonofzeal, togath, and neoseraphi, and some elements borrowed from the magic-user, mage, cleric, and priest classes from 1st and 2nd edition D&D. Even if you prefer not to use them directly, perhaps you can mine them for useful ideas.

Just to Browse
2011-12-10, 01:58 PM
The Sorcerer IS the T2 wizard. Trying to balance the Wizard to t2 separate from the sorcerer doesn't make any sense.

This.

You can call it the sorcerer, and then giving casting based off of Int, and you've solved the problem.

playswithfire
2011-12-10, 05:05 PM
The Sorcerer IS the T2 wizard. Trying to balance the Wizard to t2 separate from the sorcerer doesn't make any sense.


This.

You can call it the sorcerer, and then giving casting based off of Int, and you've solved the problem.

I could do that, and that might be the best course of action, but then the only prepared arcane caster is the wu jen and not everyone has Complete Arcane. I'm not opposed to tweaking the sorcerer as well, if that's necessary, but I think you can have distinct wizards, sorcerers, wu jen, and war mages.

Sorcerers: born with the inate ability to do magic
War mages: sorcerers with anger issues and some martial training
Wu Jen: draw their magic from the world around them, represented by the four elements
Wizards: study the principles of the magic that others can do and develop their own spells based on that knowledge and pass it along.

What if the wizard had some sort of maximum unique spells per day like the erudite?

@aergoth, arcane fatigue also makes sense and could work
@jiriku, I'll take a look at your classes soon and thanks for the links

Zale
2011-12-10, 06:46 PM
While I lack the System Mastery to judge how to nerf Wizards or Clerics I can recount what kind of nerfs I've seen in other threads.


Kill the SAD. Wizards depend mostly on Int (With Con also, Obviously). Make them need other stats to cast. Like making them use Int for learning spells, but Cha for DCs/Bonus spells.

Wizards can learn a virtually infinite number of spells. Find some way to restrict this ability. Perhaps restrict them to a certain (Possibly stat based) number of spells they can place in their spellbook each level. Or hike up the price/time required to transfer a spell from a scroll into a spellbook.

Some spells are broken. Plenty of people with more Op-fu than I can give you a list of spells that make the Dm cry. Fix or ban these.

Additionally, some spells steal the other player's roles or allow the Wizard to auto-succeed on skill checks. Fix these.

I recomend you look into various other fixes for more ideas on what makes Wizards virtual demi-gods.


I wish you the best of luck. This is going to be quite a job.

Oh and if any of those are wrong, blame the forum. I am only repeating what it has told me.

Yitzi
2011-12-10, 08:16 PM
I'm not quite sure why you want to depower cleric and wizard to tier 2 (usually depowerments are to tier 3), but here are some ideas:

Wizard: The main issue here is the ability to get pretty much any spell in his spellbook for a relatively minor cost. So here's the changes to fix that:
1. The Blessed Book does not exist. The only spellbook is the standard 100-page spellbook.
2. A wizard can only prepare from one spellbook each time he prepares. Any more, and the time to flip through the books to find the desired spell takes up all the preparation time.
3. You cannot take 10 on a check to learn a given spell. A natural 1 on that check is always a failure.

Cleric: The main issue here is that he can prepare any spell associated with his class. Some changes to fix that are:
1. Restore the 2nd edition rules where different deities have different spheres with different spells. Make the most important spells universal, either at the normal spell level or 1 higher. (My take on this for Core can be found in the fix linked in my sig.)
2. Any spell found in the PHB is common, and can be cast by any cleric. Any other spell is not common, and must either be found by the cleric in some text (which the DM has control over), or researched independently. (Or it can be explicitly granted by the deity; obviously, the DM has control over that too, since the deity is an NPC.)

Roderick_BR
2011-12-10, 11:37 PM
Some restrictions from AD&D for wizards, some already mentioned:
1) Limit on spells known. Wizards couldn't learn every spell in existence they ran accross. Don't have the tables now, so can't suggest a good limit, but needs to be more than sorcerers. Maybe something like, for each spell level, the number of slots + int modifier + 1/4 wizard level.
2) Increased casting time. It was common for wizards having to spend several rounds to cast their most powerful spells. In 3.x, a wizard can cast dozens of spells in few seconds. Add 1 "concentration" round for level 1-3 spells, 2 for level 4-6, and 3 for 7-9 spells, plus normal casting time, with special exceptions (like most evocations), and you have wizards that can't solo stuff without at least a meat shield to help.
3) The killer: Every *single* spell took 10 minutes x spell level to prepare. It desencouraged wizards from going nova, thus preventing the daily 15minutes routine problem.
4) As mentioned, some spells are just broken for it's level. Also, spells with "absolute" powers are stupid, as in, no failing chance, or no chance for enemies to resist it somehow. Magic in 3.x become too easy to learn and use without any chance of failure. Invisibility could give a +20 to hide, for example, and windwall should give *some* chance of small projectiles like arrows to pass through.

erikun
2011-12-10, 11:59 PM
Pretty much the defining characteristic between T1 and T2 is that T1 can memorize anything on their spell list, while T2 is restricted to a specific set. Just about the only way you could make a T2 prepared spellcaster would be to limit their known spells list until they are only T2.

Given that most casters end up falling into T1, T3, or T5 by default, it will likely be quite difficult to find the correct balancing point for a T2 wizard.

Aergoth
2011-12-11, 11:58 AM
Other options for T2 Wizard: Break wizards down into specialized wizards. Force specialization and those two banned schools become a bit of a hit.
It would also be possible to rule that wizards have to research spells, as mentioned above. Give the DM control over what splatbooks the player has access to in character creation and at level up. Want something from SC? Time for some Knowledge (Arcana) rolls.

Grod_The_Giant
2011-12-11, 01:37 PM
One houserule I use for wizards is that specialist wizards get +1CL and save DC with their specialized school, rather than getting bonus spells. That makes them at least a little bit more fair when compared to Sorcerers. You might also add an experience cost to writing spells in your spellbook (even if using a blessed book).

For clerics, you can drop the heavy armor proficiency (reducing tanki-ness), ban Divine Metamagic and nightsticks, and throw some kind of limit on domain powers, or even remove them altogether (although that starts to leave all clerics looking identical).

As a DM, you can also work to make divination spells less effective. Give cryptic responses to divination. The wizard casts contact other plane? Stick to yes/no/maybe answers. Be unpredictable. Make it hard for them to know precisely what spells to prepare.

It's probably not enough, but it's a start. The real problem is the overpowering and occasionaly poorly-defined nature of spells.

Yitzi
2011-12-11, 05:15 PM
ban Divine Metamagic and nightsticks

Banning nightsticks is a bit over-the-top. Instead, change them so that you can use one x/day to turn undead (but not to use feats) without using a turning attempt.


It's probably not enough, but it's a start. The real problem is the overpowering and occasionaly poorly-defined nature of spells.

Well, for the latter at least, ruling on poorly-defined things is one of the DM's main jobs.

Hanuman
2011-12-12, 12:54 AM
Why all the focus on tiers, and why wold you want to lower them?

Melee already has gone from T5 to T3 because of ToB, and having the healbots have good powers otherwise means they have fun with their spells in balance with the cleanup.

Any other balancing can be done DM-side, personally I like to screw with arcane physics in my campaigns making wizarding not predictable.

Grod_The_Giant
2011-12-12, 01:16 AM
Why all the focus on tiers, and why wold you want to lower them?
In this case, because it's not fair to the rest of the party when one member has such a power advantage. A little disparity isn't a problem, as long as everyone's having fun, but T1's are capable of doing everyone else's jobs better than they are.

Ashtagon
2011-12-12, 01:36 AM
1e had a rule where a wizard had a % chance to understand a spell at all (INT-based, with a re-check allowed when he levelled up). If you failed the check, or you reached a limit based on your INT score, that's it - you can never gain another spell of that level again, ever.

Re-doing that for 3e...

At 1st level, a wizard can know a number of 0th level spells equal to his INT, plus two 1st level spells.

The maximum number of spells a wizard can ever know of each spell level is equal to his INT score, minus the spell level. For example, an 18 INT wizard could know a maximum of nine 9th level spells.

For unknown spells, even if you encounter the spell on a scroll or in a spell book, you can't understand it. The spell simply isn't on your list for any game purpose. This also means you cannot activate wands that contain these spells.

For known spells, you still need a spell book with the spell in order to study it each morning when you regain/refresh your spells.

The DC to make a spell known is 20 + spell level. If you fail this check, you cannot try again until you gain a level.

At any time, you may choose to remove one or more spells from your list of known spells. The main reason to do this would be to make room for a newly-discovered spell in your list of known spells, or make room to begin research of a completely new spell. If you later want to regain that spell you removed, you must make a DC 20 + spell level check.

Each time you level up, you may gain two spells of any level you can currently cast, adding them to your spell list without needing to make the Spellcraft check. The GM has the right to veto any such choice and suggest alternatives. Alternately, the GM can choose for the player.

playswithfire
2011-12-12, 06:13 PM
One houserule I use for wizards is that specialist wizards get +1CL and save DC with their specialized school, rather than getting bonus spells. That makes them at least a little bit more fair when compared to Sorcerers. You might also add an experience cost to writing spells in your spellbook (even if using a blessed book).
I like that houserule. My current thinking for wizards, using the above and also the erudite as a template.

All wizards must choose a school to specialize in and two to ban (one if they choose divination as normal) and that specialization gets them your +1 CL and DC for spells of that school. Additionally, a wizard can only prepare a number of distinct spells per day (obviously, many copies as needed to reach total spells/day) equal to half his caster level rounded down + his INT mod. Cantrips don't count against this limit, but spells you didn't research yourself (i.e. spells you didn't get by leveling) count double.


For clerics, you can drop the heavy armor proficiency (reducing tanki-ness), ban Divine Metamagic and nightsticks, and throw some kind of limit on domain powers, or even remove them altogether (although that starts to leave all clerics looking identical).

Banning nightsticks is a bit over-the-top. Instead, change them so that you can use one x/day to turn undead (but not to use feats) without using a turning attempt.
I'd rather not do away with domain powers; as you say, it adds individuality to the clerics, but I'm already thinking dropping heavy armor, as well as enforcing the Cloistered variant and reducing the spell list somewhat

Nightsticks weren't going to be a factor as I don't have Libris Mortis, but I like that rework of them if I decide to include them anyway.
In the absence of nightsticks, how horrible is Divine Metamagic


The real problem is the overpowering and occasionaly poorly-defined nature of spells. True, but that's a much larger problem to solve.

Grod_The_Giant
2011-12-12, 06:52 PM
I like that houserule.
Why, thank you :smallsmile:


I'd rather not do away with domain powers; as you say, it adds individuality to the clerics, but I'm already thinking dropping heavy armor, as well as enforcing the Cloistered variant and reducing the spell list somewhat
I'd keep the chassis from the Cloistered variant, but the original Cleric skills, and not give them the free Knowledge domain or anything else. I used a similar thought-process in a recent homebrew attempt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12336470#post12336470).


In the absence of nightsticks, how horrible is Divine Metamagic
It shouldn't be hugely problematic, since a cleric probably isn't going to have the Turn attempts to persist more than one spell, or quicken more than two, but it's still a significant power advantage.

Yitzi
2011-12-12, 07:10 PM
It's probably not enough, but it's a start. The real problem is the overpowering and occasionaly poorly-defined nature of spells.

Fix that, and you've depowered them to T3, not T2. T2 is just as broken as T1, he just doesn't get the versatility to go with it.

playswithfire
2011-12-12, 10:16 PM
I'd keep the chassis from the Cloistered variant, but the original Cleric skills, and not give them the free Knowledge domain or anything else. I used a similar thought-process in a recent homebrew attempt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12336470#post12336470).
So, the tier2* cleric variant:
Hit Die: The tier2 cleric uses a d6 for his Hit Die (and has hit points at 1st level equal to 6 + Con modifier).
Base Attack Bonus: The tier2 clericís lack of martial training means that he uses the poor base attack bonus.
Class Skills: The tier2 cleric gains skill points per level equal to 6 + Int modifier (and has this number ◊4 at 1st level). Add Decipher Script and Sense Motive to his class skill list**.

Class Features
The tier2 cleric has all the standard cleric class features, except as noted below.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Tier2 clerics are proficient with simple weapons and with light armor.
Lore (Ex): Thanks to long hours of study, a tier2 cleric has a wide range of stray knowledge. This ability is identical to the bardís bardic knowledge class feature, using the tier2 clericís class level in place of the bard level.
Spellcasting: A tier2 cleric can only cast spells from the Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, and Necromancy schools, plus those of their chosen domains

and part of me wants to give them something like the archivist's dark knowledge, but maybe that's not necessary.

*better name later
** I know you said original skills, but I'm seeing the tier2 cleric as the sage holy man as distinct from the holy warrior of the favored soul and the mystic shugenja

Draz74
2011-12-13, 02:58 PM
Eh, for a "generic" Cleric chassis that can be used for warrior deities, trickster deities, and everything in between, I prefer a hybrid of the normal and Cloistered chassis.

Hit Die: d8.
BAB: Medium.
Skill Points: 4+Int.
Armor Proficiency: Medium.
Weapon Proficiency: Simple, plus deity's favored weapon (regardless of the Cleric's domains).
Saves: good Will, poor Fortitude and Reflex.

Other changes: Divine Power is no longer a Cleric spell, but it's still a War Domain spell. The War Domain now grants heavy armor proficiency in addition to Weapon Focus.
And, of course, use the Spontaneous Divine Casting variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm).

Voila, a lovely Tier 2 Cleric class.

Grod_The_Giant
2011-12-13, 04:28 PM
And, of course, use the Spontaneous Divine Casting variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm)

The problem is that now you've basically made the Favored Soul useless.

playswithfire
2011-12-13, 06:35 PM
Eh, for a "generic" Cleric chassis that can be used for warrior deities, trickster deities, and everything in between, I prefer a hybrid of the normal and Cloistered chassis.

Hit Die: d8.
BAB: Medium.
Skill Points: 4+Int.
Armor Proficiency: Medium.
Weapon Proficiency: Simple, plus deity's favored weapon (regardless of the Cleric's domains).
Saves: good Will, poor Fortitude and Reflex.

Other changes: Divine Power is no longer a Cleric spell, but it's still a War Domain spell. The War Domain now grants heavy armor proficiency in addition to Weapon Focus.
And, of course, use the Spontaneous Divine Casting variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm).

Voila, a lovely Tier 2 Cleric class.[/QUOTE[QUOTE=Grod_The_Giant;12370671]The problem is that now you've basically made the Favored Soul useless.

That does come out pretty similar to the Favored Soul. I'm shooting for four divine full casters with distinct feels to them. You can be a poor-BAB cleric of a war god; you serve as tactician and periodically invoke Divine Power as needed once you learn it.

Thank you both for the feedback and suggestions.

EDIT: Thinking of calling my variant from yesterday "scholarly cleric"

Draz74
2011-12-13, 08:17 PM
The problem is that now you've basically made the Favored Soul useless.

*shrug* It's unquestionably a nerf to the Cleric. Essentially, the Cleric always made the Favored Soul useless. :smallannoyed:

The Spontaneous variant is really how Clerics always should have been. Spell preparation makes little sense fluff-wise for a caster that prays his spells down from the gods, and the biggest problem with the Cleric class -- the fact that Clerics of all deities aren't really very different -- gets blown to smithereens when your spells known actually depend on your Domains directly. So ... yeah.

What exactly is the Favored Soul supposed to be better at than the Cleric? Melee fighting? If that's your concept, then feel free to take my version and knock its HD down to d6 and its BAB down to Poor. It will still be a powerful caster, it just won't be able to fill a "warrior priest" character concept anymore.

Grod_The_Giant
2011-12-13, 08:45 PM
The Spontaneous variant is really how Clerics always should have been. Spell preparation makes little sense fluff-wise for a caster that prays his spells down from the gods

Really? I've always thought it was easier to rationalize than arcane casters. My interpretation is that the god reaches down and plants the spell-- power and all-- in the cleric's mind when he prepares, and that's why it's utterly expended when gone. But different folks, different strokes.

playswithfire
2011-12-13, 09:15 PM
*shrug* It's unquestionably a nerf to the Cleric. Essentially, the Cleric always made the Favored Soul useless. :smallannoyed: Fair point. And I'm sorry if I came across as dismissive, but it seemed mechanically very similar to the favored soul (essentially just trading some saves for skills points) if they're both spontaneous.


The Spontaneous variant is really how Clerics always should have been. Spell preparation makes little sense fluff-wise for a caster that prays his spells down from the gods, and the biggest problem with the Cleric class -- the fact that Clerics of all deities aren't really very different -- gets blown to smithereens when your spells known actually depend on your Domains directly. So ... yeah.
Really? I've always thought it was easier to rationalize than arcane casters. My interpretation is that the god reaches down and plants the spell-- power and all-- in the cleric's mind when he prepares, and that's why it's utterly expended when gone. But different folks, different strokes.

I guess my take on the three divine full casters I'm considering* and their sources of power:
Favored Soul: born with an inner reservoir of divine magic, source unknown
Shugenja: taps into the divine energies of the world around him
Cleric: asks his god for the spells and gets what he asks for (hence the only one with prepared spells), but I do think it might make more sense for a cleric to be able to spontaneously cast domain spells than everything spontaneously casting heal/inflict

*don't know spirit shaman as well

Seerow
2011-12-14, 12:22 AM
Okay, so I had a thought. What if Sorcerers and Wizards were both spontaneous, but the difference was in terms of spells known.

That is, you have spontaneous Sorcerers with slightly more spells known (probably comparable to a Favored Soul, which I think gets 1 more per level than Sorc). Then you have a Wizard with more spells known than the Sorcerer, but gets fewer (say about half) spells readied. Also make Sorcerers get their spells on odd levels just to make things more consistent.

So you have something along the lines of:

Sorcerer

Spells Known
{table="head;width=500"]Level | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9
1 | 4 | 3
2 | 5 | 4
3 | 6 | 4 | 3
4 | 7 | 5 | 4
5 | 8 | 5 | 4 | 3
6 | 9 | 5 | 5 | 4
7 | 10 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3
8 | 11 | 6 | 5 | 5 | 4
9 | 12 | 6 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3
10 | 12 | 6 | 6 | 5 | 5 | 4
11 | 12 | 7 | 6 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3
12 | 12 | 7 | 6 | 6 | 5 | 5 | 4
13 | 12 | 7 | 7 | 6 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3
14 | 12 | 7 | 7 | 6 | 6 | 5 | 5 | 4
15 | 12 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 6 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3
16 | 12 | 8 | 7 | 7 | 6 | 6 | 5 | 5 | 4
17 | 12 | 8 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 6 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3
18 | 12 | 8 | 8 | 7 | 7 | 6 | 6 | 5 | 5 | 4
19 | 12 | 8 | 8 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 6 | 6 | 5 | 4
20 | 12 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 7 | 7 | 6 | 6 | 5 | 5
[/table]

Spells Per Day
Level | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9
1 | 5 | 3
2 | 6 | 4
3 | 6 | 5 | 3
4 | 6 | 6 | 4
5 | 6 | 6 | 5 | 3
6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 4
7 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 5 | 3
8 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 4
9 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 5 | 3
10 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 4
11 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 5 | 3
12 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 4
13 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 5 | 3
14 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 4
15 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 5 | 3
16 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 4
17 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 5 | 3
18 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 4
19 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 5
20 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6


Wizard:

Spells Known
{table="head;width=500"]Level | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9
1 | 6 | 4
2 | 7 | 5
3 | 8 | 6 | 4
4 | 9 | 6 | 5
5 | 10 | 7 | 6 | 4
6 | 11 | 7 | 6 | 5
7 | 12 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 4
8 | 13 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 5
9 | 14 | 8 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 4
10 | 15 | 9 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 5
11 | 15 | 9 | 8 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 4
12 | 15 | 9 | 9 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 5
13 | 15 | 10 | 9 | 8 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 4
14 | 15 | 10 | 9 | 9 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 5
15 | 15 | 10 | 10 | 9 | 8 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 4
16 | 15 | 10 | 10 | 9 | 9 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 5
17 | 15 | 11 | 10 | 10 | 9 | 8 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 4
18 | 15 | 11 | 10 | 10 | 9 | 9 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 5
19 | 15 | 11 | 11 | 10 | 10 | 9 | 8 | 8 | 7 | 6
20 | 15 | 11 | 11 | 10 | 10 | 9 | 9 | 8 | 7 | 6
[/table]

Spells Readied
{table="head;width=500"]Level | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9
1 | 4 | 2
2 | 5 | 2
3 | 6 | 2 | 2
4 | 7 | 3 | 2
5 | 8 | 3 | 2 | 2
6 | 9 | 3 | 3 | 2
7 | 10 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2
8 | 11 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2
9 | 12 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2
10 | 12 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2
11 | 12 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2
12 | 12 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2
13 | 12 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2
14 | 12 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2
15 | 12 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2
16 | 12 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2
17 | 12 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2
18 | 12 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2
19 | 12 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2
20 | 12 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3
[/table]

Spells per day: As normal



The end result being sorcerers having more versatility at any given moment, and wizards having more versatility from day to day. The Wizard gets a buff in terms of having spontaneous casting, but ultimately loses out on his infinite spells known in exchange for that. (Exact spells known progression may still need a nerf, the number of spells known currently is probably still high enough to be practically anything he could want.)

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-12-15, 01:50 PM
You may wish to consider checking out my Priest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212933) base class. It's a divine casting class, with Shadowcaster-esque casting style. They can only cast from the domains granted by their deity, and MUST have a deity to follow, which nerfs a lot of the Cleric's power, but you can still get some powerful combos. The important thing is that they only get one 'devotional' per level, so they have a limited repitoire. However, each 'devotional' can (eventually) be used multiple times per day, and eventually can become a (Sp) or even a (Su) ability.

NineThePuma
2011-12-16, 03:38 PM
CW Samurai: I'd like to think the Bushi variant (Tome of Tactics) pulls it up to T5.

Tier 5 should NEVER be the objective. Just saying.

Deepbluediver
2011-12-16, 04:00 PM
I don't think you're going to be able to truly effectively curb a wizard's power without rewriting a good chunk of 3.5, including any extra sourcebooks you want to use.

However, if you want to curb their versatility somewhat, here's one modifciation I've seen used.
School Specilization: A wizard can perpare spells to cast for his daily allotment only from the schools they have specialized in. A wizard chooses his first school specilization at level 1. They choose another school for specilization at levels 2, 5, and 10.
Each time a wizard chooses one school to specialize in, they must choose a different school to ban. A wizard may not prepare any spells from schools on thier banned list even if anotehr class would provide it, nor can they cast spells from scrolls or use any other magic item that would cast a spell from their banned list.

playswithfire
2011-12-16, 05:28 PM
Okay, so I had a thought. What if Sorcerers and Wizards were both spontaneous, but the difference was in terms of spells known.
...
Not a bad plan and probably pretty balanced, but I'd rather keep wizards prepared and find another way to limit their versatility.
I don't think you're going to be able to truly effectively curb a wizard's power without rewriting a good chunk of 3.5, including any extra sourcebooks you want to use.

However, if you want to curb their versatility somewhat, here's one modifciation I've seen used.
School Specilization: A wizard can perpare spells to cast for his daily allotment only from the schools they have specialized in. A wizard chooses his first school specilization at level 1. They choose another school for specilization at levels 2, 5, and 10.
Each time a wizard chooses one school to specialize in, they must choose a different school to ban. A wizard may not prepare any spells from schools on thier banned list even if anotehr class would provide it, nor can they cast spells from scrolls or use any other magic item that would cast a spell from their banned list.Yeah, just trying to knock them down to T2, not T3, so limiting versatility is all that's really required. Your plan seems like a good and simple way to do that, though I might cut out the one at 10th level so the part about being unable to ban divination doesn't need a tweak. Everyone ends up with 3 specialized* schools, divination, and an unspecialized school.

*still might use the +1CL/DC or maybe just DC bonus for specialization instead of additional prepared spell


You may wish to consider checking out my Priest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212933) base class. It's a divine casting class, with Shadowcaster-esque casting style. They can only cast from the domains granted by their deity, and MUST have a deity to follow, which nerfs a lot of the Cleric's power, but you can still get some powerful combos. The important thing is that they only get one 'devotional' per level, so they have a limited repitoire. However, each 'devotional' can (eventually) be used multiple times per day, and eventually can become a (Sp) or even a (Su) ability.I'll definitely take a closer look. I would rather tweak than completely replace the cleric, but your class looks like it might have some good hints on how to do that.


Tier 5 should NEVER be the objective. Just saying.Yeah, I think I forgot the words "at least." I'm not sure exactly what level the Bushi variant moves up to (haven't had a chance to playtest it) but it and a feat or two from Tome of Tactics (one of which I don't think I've included yet) should make the samurai a more effective debuffer and melee combatant. Probably T4, but since I wasn't sure I didn't want to overstate.

Deepbluediver
2011-12-16, 06:03 PM
Yeah, just trying to knock them down to T2, not T3, so limiting versatility is all that's really required. Your plan seems like a good and simple way to do that, though I might cut out the one at 10th level so the part about being unable to ban divination doesn't need a tweak. Everyone ends up with 3 specialized* schools, divination, and an unspecialized school.

*still might use the +1CL/DC or maybe just DC bonus for specialization instead of additional prepared spell


From everything I've read about Divination, with a few splatbooks it can be just as powerful as other schools, so you might want to consider treating it just like other schools; I dunno how much pf a concern non-core content is.

Also, I left out anything about bonus-spells because for specialization because I haven't tested this system enough to know wether the extra spells per day are either vital or totally unecessary. Personally, for simplicity's sake, I might just ignore the bit about adding spells for specilization, but it's ultimately up to you.

playswithfire
2011-12-17, 08:51 AM
From everything I've read about Divination, with a few splatbooks it can be just as powerful as other schools, so you might want to consider treating it just like other schools; I dunno how much pf a concern non-core content is.

Also, I left out anything about bonus-spells because for specialization because I haven't tested this system enough to know wether the extra spells per day are either vital or totally unecessary. Personally, for simplicity's sake, I might just ignore the bit about adding spells for specilization, but it's ultimately up to you.
I think when I responded I forgot that they can only cast from schools that they specialized* in, so there's no need for anything like bonus spells or a DC/CL bonus. Works basically like the ardent, though with whole schools of spells instead of just mantles. Might have to leave read magic as a special case that everyone can prepare even if they haven't selected divination.

*probably need a different word, like "selection," since it's now a known school vs a banned school rather than specialized/known/banned

Yitzi
2011-12-17, 07:56 PM
In the absence of nightsticks, how horrible is Divine Metamagic

Quite manageable. You still should probably cap it at the maximum spell level available, though.

Persistent Spell could still use some fixing, though; it's not so much that it's overpowered (in the absence of nightstick/Divine Metamagic abuse) as that it's unbalanced even against itself. Take a page from the magic item rules and make its cost dependent on the normal duration, and it should work better.

Deepbluediver
2011-12-18, 12:22 AM
Quite manageable. You still should probably cap it at the maximum spell level available, though.

Persistent Spell could still use some fixing, though; it's not so much that it's overpowered (in the absence of nightstick/Divine Metamagic abuse) as that it's unbalanced even against itself. Take a page from the magic item rules and make its cost dependent on the normal duration, and it should work better.

Just out of curiousity, why was the original Divine Metamagic mechanic ever considered necessary in the first place? How bad would it be to just say that any metamagic feat can be applied in the same way to Divine spells as they can to arcane spells?

Seerow
2011-12-18, 12:37 AM
Just out of curiousity, why was the original Divine Metamagic mechanic ever considered necessary in the first place? How bad would it be to just say that any metamagic feat can be applied in the same way to Divine spells as they can to arcane spells?

Metamagic can be applied to divine spells like they can to arcane. DMM is just an extra feat that lets you reduce the cost of metamagic using turning attempts.


Honestly the problem with DMM is basically that it's easy to get extra turning attempts. Getting turning from multiple sources is really easy. Nightsticks and other extra turning sources are easily accessible. Typical builds dipping into different cleric variants for 3-4 different turning sources easily get 20-30 turn attempts without night sticks. If turning didn't stack with other variants of itself, and nightsticks/other items didn't exist, it wouldn't be that bad. 3+cha mod is pretty manageable overall, you might persist one spell, not a big deal. It's pretty clear that the feat was balanced assuming that's what people would have.

Even with tons of turning attempts though, it wouldn't be too terrible if it was limited to one application per spell. Basically a limited use arcane thesis or whatever, 1 turning attempt, reduce metamagic cost 1. No, you can't use 4 turning attempts to make the quickening free. You can use 1 to make it 3 levels.

Yitzi
2011-12-18, 07:27 PM
Just out of curiousity, why was the original Divine Metamagic mechanic ever considered necessary in the first place?

My guess is that it was never considered necessary, but was rather presented as an interesting feat that the DM could put into the game if he wanted (sort of like Prestige Classes), and then (also like Prestige Classes) was seen to be "sanctioned" and allowed as the default.


Honestly the problem with DMM is basically that it's easy to get extra turning attempts. Getting turning from multiple sources is really easy. Nightsticks and other extra turning sources are easily accessible.

Hence my suggested modification of those, which lets them still be useful but kills any abuse through turning-use feats.


Typical builds dipping into different cleric variants for 3-4 different turning sources easily get 20-30 turn attempts without night sticks.

Also easy to fix; just say that all such classes stack for purposes of turning, just like paladin and cleric. (i.e. the level stacks, the attempts/day are the same pool, which is not increased.)