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gooddragon1
2011-12-11, 04:48 PM
What tier and how balanced would a fighter with the following class feature be (without fighter bonus feats)?

Fated Balance (Ex)

All rolls a ~ would make are instead treated as half their maximum result rounded down (minimum 1). If a ~ is multiclassed this ability instead functions on the first rolls he makes over the course of a day up to 1 per ~ level he has and then this ability ceases to function thereafter for that day.

NOTE: I know it's more like an Su but I want it to function in an AMF.

Yitzi
2011-12-11, 05:12 PM
If it's not even voluntary and applies to the result rather than the natural roll (as the actual text indicates), it would be worse than a warrior. If it just amounts to "take 10 on any roll", it would be overpowered on cheese and rocket tag builds, and underpowered on anything else.

gooddragon1
2011-12-11, 07:03 PM
If it's not even voluntary and applies to the result rather than the natural roll (as the actual text indicates), it would be worse than a warrior. If it just amounts to "take 10 on any roll", it would be overpowered on cheese and rocket tag builds, and underpowered on anything else.

It's not voluntary. You will never be able to get more than half the maximum result on any roll (and in some cases less with rounding down).

Kazyan
2011-12-11, 07:30 PM
It's not voluntary. You will never be able to get more than half the maximum result on any roll (and in some cases less with rounding down).

The problem with this is that, this being a melee class, you'll either always hit or never hit. It depends on the target's AC. Encounters will swing from "I'm totally useless, guys" to "I am become death, destroyer of CR-appropriate monsters".

Glimbur
2011-12-11, 07:36 PM
The problem with this is that, this being a melee class, you'll either always hit or never hit. It depends on the target's AC. Encounters will swing from "I'm totally useless, guys" to "I am become death, destroyer of CR-appropriate monsters".

It's not quite that extreme, as iterative attacks mean you can say "I will hit the first attack and miss the second" and such, but... dice are in the game for a reason. If you remove the variability it becomes, to my way of thinking, less interesting because the possible results become fewer.

gooddragon1
2011-12-11, 07:38 PM
The problem with this is that, this being a melee class, you'll either always hit or never hit. It depends on the target's AC. Encounters will swing from "I'm totally useless, guys" to "I am become death, destroyer of CR-appropriate monsters".

That being the case, you can just carry around a use activated item of magic missile or something.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-11, 07:39 PM
Not to mention all those chances to alter your attack roll in order to customize your attack (Two-Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, feats that have a DC based on how much you Power Attack) become incredibly difficult to use.

Remember that AC has a base of 10. So basically what you are doing here is saying "I remove the attack roll and the Base AC from the equation, as well as all chance the character has to successfully roll a critical hit. Now whether you hit is a contest of your BAB, Strength, and enhancements, versus his Dex, Size, and Natural Armor".

Not many fighters will win that case (Natural armor has absolutely no logical progression. It varies like crazy from CR to CR)

Kazyan
2011-12-11, 07:41 PM
That being the case, you can just carry around a use activated item of magic missile or something.

And some people do that. But it should not be your only option, and it shouldn't randomly never work ever against certain monsters.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-11, 07:45 PM
That being the case, you can just carry around a use activated item of magic missile or something.

The UMD check for a wand of magic missile is 20. It's 26 if you don't have at least an 11 Intelligence or Charisma score. UMD is not a class skill for fighters. You would always roll a 10, so you need at least a +10 modifier to make it work, assuming you have the prerequisite stat. Let's be generous and say it's sorcerer-made and you managed to fit a 14 into your Charisma. And you sprung for a masterwork item. You now have a static 14 on all your UMD checks, so you need 6 ranks in UMD to make it work, which won't happen until you're level 9 at the earliest.

Edit: Even if you do use it, you would be dealing between 3 and 15 damage per use. (You don't get d4s, you get 2s, because of your Balance ability)

Seerow
2011-12-11, 07:46 PM
The UMD check for a wand of magic missile is 20. It's 26 if you don't have at least an 11 Intelligence or Charisma score. UMD is not a class skill for fighters. You would always roll a 10, so you need at least a +10 modifier to make it work, assuming you have the prerequisite stat. Let's be generous and say it's sorcerer-made and you managed to fit a 14 into your Charisma. And you sprung for a masterwork item. You now have a static 14 on all your UMD checks, so you need 6 ranks in UMD to make it work, which won't happen until you're level 9 at the earliest.

That's why it's a use activated item, not a wand.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-11, 07:47 PM
That's why it's a use activated item, not a wand.

What's a "use-activated item"? :smallconfused:

I've never really paid much attention to magic items that emulate spells, because I don't own the DMG.

Anyway, even so, see the above edit for calculations of damage output at his suggestion.

Edit: If it helps your balance point, Gooddragon, Aura of Perfect Order is a 6th level stance that requires 2 other Devoted Spirit maneuvers. It has an alignment restriction and cannot be selected until you are IL 11. It lets you treat any d20 roll as an 11, once per round, chosen before you roll.

gooddragon1
2011-12-11, 08:03 PM
What's a "use-activated item"? :smallconfused:

I've never really paid much attention to magic items that emulate spells, because I don't own the DMG.

Anyway, even so, see the above edit for calculations of damage output at his suggestion.

Edit: If it helps your balance point, Gooddragon, Aura of Perfect Order is a 6th level stance that requires 2 other Devoted Spirit maneuvers. It has an alignment restriction and cannot be selected until you are IL 11. It lets you treat any d20 roll as an 11, once per round, chosen before you roll.

That's why this is the single feature of the class, cannot be deactivated, and functions on all rolls for good or ill.

I was thinking of playing one of these so I wouldn't have to roll dice.

Mando Knight
2011-12-11, 08:45 PM
It's flat out terrible. Yeah, you're taking 10 on everything. Which means if your Saving Throws, attack bonus, or whatever isn't high enough, you're completely useless, rather than useless about half the time.

Wyntonian
2011-12-11, 08:49 PM
What is this I don't even...

Yeah, I seriously don't get the reasoning behind this. Rather than involving the slightest bit of randomness you make every attack roll a prescribed yes/no. As binary as attack rolls are, you do have a chance to hit something with an AC of 20, even as a first-level commoner. Now, you can't hit anything with an AC over nine, if we use that same example, but you hit it. Every. Single. Time.

If you don't see why this isn't a good idea from a game design perspective, I can't help you.

bobthe6th
2011-12-11, 09:10 PM
the main problem is that anything with a >50% chance of failure will always fail and everything with a <50% chance of failure always works. this does not balance out, as in a challenge that you do not already have bonuses in you will fail continuously. say to break a door with a DC > str mod+10 is unbreakable, and < str mod+10 is kindling. placing a skill based challenge for this character is impossible, as he can either do it or not.

gooddragon1
2011-12-11, 09:17 PM
the main problem is that anything with a >50% chance of failure will always fail and everything with a <50% chance of failure always works. this does not balance out, as in a challenge that you do not already have bonuses in you will fail continuously. say to break a door with a DC > str mod+10 is unbreakable, and < str mod+10 is kindling. placing a skill based challenge for this character is impossible, as he can either do it or not.

In which case another character can try. So he's useful in some situations and not in others. Just like it is supposed to be for any character. The hard part here will be selling it to my DM so that I never have to roll again.

EDIT: OOH! Thought of a name for the class: Binary Fighter. :D

Grod_The_Giant
2011-12-11, 09:38 PM
In which case another character can try. So he's useful in some situations and not in others. Just like it is supposed to be for any character. The hard part here will be selling it to my DM so that I never have to roll again.

Incorrect. It's a valid game-design perspective to have a character that can do some things well and rely on help for others. This, however, is a character who's only useful half the time in the situations he should be able to handle. This isn't an axe-wielding barbarian who needs his archer buddy to shoot down the harpies.

Here's how I foresee this character's career going:

Binary fighter: "Adventure, adventure, adventure, adventure, let's go fight some dudes!"
Wizard: "Hey, can you keep these ogres away from me?
BF: "Sure... whoops! Their AC's too high. Let's try tripping... nope!"
Ogres: "hurr hurr, stupid human can't hit us. Let's ignore him and rip the legs off the guy who keeps shooting fire at our faces."
BF: "Wait! Stop! I only need one more point of attack to hit you!"
Wizard: <dies horribly>
BF: <goes down still uselessly making the same attack roll every round>
TPK

Perhaps if you explain why you're so desperate not to have to roll dice we can come up with a more workable alternative.

gooddragon1
2011-12-11, 09:49 PM
Incorrect. It's a valid game-design perspective to have a character that can do some things well and rely on help for others. This, however, is a character who's only useful half the time in the situations he should be able to handle. This isn't an axe-wielding barbarian who needs his archer buddy to shoot down the harpies.

Here's how I foresee this character's career going:

Binary fighter: "Adventure, adventure, adventure, adventure, let's go fight some dudes!"
Wizard: "Hey, can you keep these ogres away from me?
BF: "Sure... whoops! Their AC's too high. Let's try tripping... nope!"
Ogres: "hurr hurr, stupid human can't hit us. Let's ignore him and rip the legs off the guy who keeps shooting fire at our faces."
BF: "Wait! Stop! I only need one more point of attack to hit you!"
Wizard: <dies horribly>
BF: <goes down still uselessly making the same attack roll every round>
TPK

Perhaps if you explain why you're so desperate not to have to roll dice we can come up with a more workable alternative.

I don't know exactly why. I'm just lazy maybe. Though in this case he can pull out a use activated item to do damage.

EDIT: I thought dies horribly was a goblin.

Lateral
2011-12-11, 09:50 PM
...Yeah, congratulations. You just made a class that is literally worse than a Warrior. And Warriors don't even get class features.

gooddragon1
2011-12-11, 09:52 PM
...Yeah, congratulations. You just made a class that is literally worse than a Warrior. And Warriors don't even get class features.

Can a guy just play an unoptimized class these days? Please?

Yitzi
2011-12-11, 10:00 PM
Can a guy just play an unoptimized class these days? Please?

Of course he can. But there's a difference between "unoptimized" and "worse than an NPC class". Not that you can't play that if you want, too, but if you want to play such a class then there's no point in asking about power levels.

Siosilvar
2011-12-11, 10:08 PM
Can a guy just play an unoptimized class these days? Please?

Unoptimized =/= literally breaks the math of the game.

Lateral
2011-12-11, 10:15 PM
Can a guy just play an unoptimized class these days? Please?

Unoptimized? Sure.

Worse than every class in the game besides Aristocrat and Commoner? No.

Grod_The_Giant
2011-12-11, 10:23 PM
Can a guy just play an unoptimized class these days? Please?

You don't have to optimize if you're having fun. But I don't think that you will have fun with this variant. You will literally just sit there and say "I attack. I attack. I attack." And that's assuming you can hit, mind you. The proposed variant has no mechanical features that make it interesting whatsoever.

Your original question was, after all, "what tier would this be?" At best, Tier 6.



Tier 6: Not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise. DMs will need to work hard to make encounters that this sort of character can contribute in with their mechanical abilities. Will often feel worthless unless the character is seriously powergamed beyond belief, and even then won't be terribly impressive. Needs to fight enemies of lower than normal CR. Class is often completely unsynergized or with almost no abilities of merit. Avoid allowing PCs to play these characters.


Your question is answered. Play a barbarian and roll the dice-- I promise, you'll have more fun than if you do this. If you find rolling a handful of dice now and then to be too much work... I'm sorry, but I'm not sure that D&D is the game for you.

Yitzi
2011-12-11, 10:25 PM
Unoptimized? Sure.

Worse than every class in the game besides Aristocrat and Commoner? No.

Depending on how you read the ability (in particular, if you read that it's the total result, rather than the die roll, that is rounded down), this could actually be worse than Commoner after a few levels.

gooddragon1
2011-12-11, 11:02 PM
You don't have to optimize if you're having fun. But I don't think that you will have fun with this variant. You will literally just sit there and say "I attack. I attack. I attack." And that's assuming you can hit, mind you. The proposed variant has no mechanical features that make it interesting whatsoever.

Your original question was, after all, "what tier would this be?" At best, Tier 6.



Your question is answered. Play a barbarian and roll the dice-- I promise, you'll have more fun than if you do this. If you find rolling a handful of dice now and then to be too much work... I'm sorry, but I'm not sure that D&D is the game for you.

So it's not imbalanced then. Just checking.

Siosilvar
2011-12-11, 11:06 PM
So it's not imbalanced then. Just checking.

Here's that quote again, since you seem to have missed it the first time:


Tier 6: Not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise. DMs will need to work hard to make encounters that this sort of character can contribute in with their mechanical abilities. Will often feel worthless unless the character is seriously powergamed beyond belief, and even then won't be terribly impressive. Needs to fight enemies of lower than normal CR. Class is often completely unsynergized or with almost no abilities of merit. Avoid allowing PCs to play these characters.

1If you really want to avoid rolling dice, might I suggest one of these free diceless games (http://www.dyasdesigns.com/roleplay/dicelessgames.html)?

Grod_The_Giant
2011-12-11, 11:09 PM
So it's not imbalanced then. Just checking.

It is imbalanced-- it's too weak. The idea goes both ways-- a class can be too strong, but it can also be too weak. The goal of a good campaign is to have all players at a similar power level-- balanced with each other. If that occurs, it's fairly easy to design level-appropriate encounters.

With this variant, you will be dragging your friends down. Most of the time, your contribution will be a meatshield and nothing more-- even if you can hit, you're going to be doing an insignificant amount of damage at anything above third or fourth level. The rest of the party is going to be forced to waste resources keeping you alive.

I'm sorry if this seems harsh. Obviously, no-one can or should tell you what to do. However, the Playground as a whole has a very high level of experience, and if everyone's agreeing, we probably have a point.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-11, 11:16 PM
At the very least, keep the bonus feats. You're not going to be too powerful by giving a fighter a single class feature. Especially if you're planning to play a single classed fighter.

gooddragon1
2011-12-11, 11:27 PM
It is imbalanced-- it's too weak. The idea goes both ways-- a class can be too strong, but it can also be too weak. The goal of a good campaign is to have all players at a similar power level-- balanced with each other. If that occurs, it's fairly easy to design level-appropriate encounters.

With this variant, you will be dragging your friends down. Most of the time, your contribution will be a meatshield and nothing more-- even if you can hit, you're going to be doing an insignificant amount of damage at anything above third or fourth level. The rest of the party is going to be forced to waste resources keeping you alive.

I'm sorry if this seems harsh. Obviously, no-one can or should tell you what to do. However, the Playground as a whole has a very high level of experience, and if everyone's agreeing, we probably have a point.

What if it got a +1 cumulative bonus on attacks against the same target? Eventually it would have to hit then (and I still wouldn't have to roll).

Wyntonian
2011-12-11, 11:38 PM
What if it got a +1 cumulative bonus on attacks against the same target? Eventually it would have to hit then (and I still wouldn't have to roll).

If you're useless at the start of an encounter, that would give you a couple rounds, ranging from one to theoretically infinity, but probably more like thirty, to become slightly relevant. And that's assuming your party members are sitting there with their thumbs up their butts and not contributing (Read: ending the encounter before you can do your one trick, namely hitting something with a stick)

Seerow
2011-12-11, 11:40 PM
Why are you so dead set against rolling any dice? Seriously, automatic success or automatic failure are not going to be interesting in actual play. It'll seem interesting and novel for about 5 minutes, then get boring real quick.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-11, 11:41 PM
How about at every even level you get to treat all rolls as half the maximum +1, with a maximum of the maximum? That way you're static, but steadily getting better, until at level 20 you take 20 on all rolls. Which, without any other class features, would be fine.

gooddragon1
2011-12-11, 11:55 PM
How about at every even level you get to treat all rolls as half the maximum +1, with a maximum of the maximum? That way you're static, but steadily getting better, until at level 20 you take 20 on all rolls. Which, without any other class features, would be fine.

That's just too strong imo. The other thing with stacking bonuses could probably work faster with feats like weapon focus and stuff I think. Hmm, what about having the attacks allow reflex saves for half damage (DC 10+1/2 lvl+Str)? They could fail their reflex saves and it deals some damage.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-12, 12:01 AM
That's just too strong imo. The other thing with stacking bonuses could probably work faster with feats like weapon focus and stuff I think. Hmm, what about having the attacks allow reflex saves for half damage (DC 10+1/2 lvl+Str)? They could fail their reflex saves and it deals some damage.

Well the problem with that is now you can't kill rogues and monks. Though it does make evasion significantly more useful.

gooddragon1
2011-12-12, 12:03 AM
Well the problem with that is now you can't kill rogues and monks. Though it does make evasion significantly more useful.

There's other people in the party for that. So now this class should be alright.

wiimanclassic
2011-12-12, 06:27 PM
You still outright fail on anything challenging. Honestly man, if you NEED to play D&D but can't be bothered to roll dice, ether get Baldurs Gate, Neverwinter Nights 2(or NWN Complete), or play the D&D facebook games. You ain't really gonna go anywhere in tabletop games without dice rolling.

gkathellar
2011-12-12, 08:39 PM
If you're not rolling any dice and you have no class features, than why play at all? Just tell the DM what skill and save DCs you beat, what ACs you can hit, and let him run you on autopilot while you pick at your nails or something.

Seriously, this isn't just terrible (and I mean Tier 7 terrible) it's an incredibly backwards approach to game design, because it's a mechanic that makes your character less interesting to play.


You ain't really gonna go anywhere in tabletop games without dice rolling.

There are diceless games, to be fair. But they typically use a lot of descriptive storytelling and complex resource management.

Anachronity
2011-12-12, 09:29 PM
Obviously we can't stop you from making this class, but when you are asking us to balance something that is inherently unbalanced you're wasting your time. Even if you do hypothetically find this class to be fun you're still making the game worse for everyone else. Your class will either be completely overpowered or completely useless in every situation as opposed to other classes who can usually contribute IN SOME WAY in every fight. Your party will be sitting out the fights half the time, but when you get a difficult encounter they'll be forced to fight while essentially being a man down. You will not have a place in difficult encounters.

You often quote the concept of class roles as a reason why this class is a good idea, but the point of class roles is that every class will have SOMETHING to do in any given encounter. Your class, however, will be dead weight in any encounter where you can't hit something. A Barbarian could ready an action to attack a flying opponent who attempts a melee attack, or perhaps improvise a thrown weapon. He's still at least marginally useful in situations where he's out of his element. Your class will be utterly useless in any situation where you can't hit with a 10.

Everyone on the board thinks this is a bad idea, if you still think it's a good idea then go find another board.

gooddragon1
2011-12-12, 11:10 PM
Obviously we can't stop you from making this class, but when you are asking us to balance something that is inherently unbalanced you're wasting your time. Even if you do hypothetically find this class to be fun you're still making the game worse for everyone else. Your class will either be completely overpowered or completely useless in every situation as opposed to other classes who can usually contribute IN SOME WAY in every fight. Your party will be sitting out the fights half the time, but when you get a difficult encounter they'll be forced to fight while essentially being a man down. You will not have a place in difficult encounters.

You often quote the concept of class roles as a reason why this class is a good idea, but the point of class roles is that every class will have SOMETHING to do in any given encounter. Your class, however, will be dead weight in any encounter where you can't hit something. A Barbarian could ready an action to attack a flying opponent who attempts a melee attack, or perhaps improvise a thrown weapon. He's still at least marginally useful in situations where he's out of his element. Your class will be utterly useless in any situation where you can't hit with a 10.

Everyone on the board thinks this is a bad idea, if you still think it's a good idea then go find another board.

I'm on the board and I don't think it's a bad idea :(.
But I'll make another class I guess :/.

Seerow
2011-12-12, 11:13 PM
Honestly, stick to classes other people write. Seriously.

gooddragon1
2011-12-12, 11:19 PM
Honestly, stick to classes other people write. Seriously.

I can't, their classes don't deliver what I want.

But look! New class: Flailing Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12367016#post12367016)