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BelGareth
2011-12-13, 01:24 PM
So in accordance with my MO I decided to take the pitiful Prestige class Order of the Bow Initiate and turn it into a decent Martial class that was actually worth playing.

Aim here is Tier 3/top tier 4

As is known, Archery is pretty much not a great build in 3.5. Pathfinder fixed a lot of that (and yes I stole the Deadly aim from PF), BUT its a little broken in PF. So I wanted to make a fluffy equivalent of the original PRC while enhancing archery all at once.

Please NOTE, throughout the whole class the class is referenced as Order of the Bow initiate, initiate, Master, Knight and GrandMaster interchangeably. So don't be to confused when I start talking about the initiate. I will, when I have time, comb through it all and change everything to its appropriate rank. (Or not, let me know if that would be too confusing).

I decided to lower the hallmark ability of the OOBI to D4's to make it bonus damage but not broken, The Fast Hands ability I am somewhat proud of, its an extra attack as a swift action not unlike the Diamond Mind's Insightful strike Maneuver (not the swift action thing, the skill check).

EDIT: PLEASE POST, EVEN IF IT'S JUST TO SAY "I LOVE IT" OR "I HATE IT"

BelGareth
2011-12-13, 01:27 PM
The Order of the Bow Initiate
"When asked, 'What is Truth?', an initiate of the Order of the Bow picks up his bow, fires an arrow and, without saying a word, lets his mastery of the weapon serve as the gauge of the archerís progress along the way."

Class skills (4 + Int Modifier per level): The Order of the Bow Initiate's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance(Dex), Climb(Str), Concentration(Con), craft(Int), Escape Artist(Dex), Handle Animal(Cha), Hide(Dex), Jump(Str), Knowledge(History)(Int), Listen(Wis), Move silently(DeX), Profession(Wis), Ride(Dex), Search(Int), Sleight of hand(Dex), Spot(Wis), Survival(Wis), Swim(Str), Tumble(Dex), Use rope(Dex).

4 * (4 + Int Modifier) for first level

Alignment: Any

Starting Age: As Ranger

Starting Wealth: As Ranger

Hit Dice: d10

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st| +1 | +2 | +2 | +0 | Bonus Feat, Deadly Aim, Initiate, Way of the Bow

2nd| +2 | +3| +3 | +0 | Fletcher/Bowyer, Fast Hands +1d4

3rd| +3 | +3 | +3 | +1 | Evasion, Rope Shot

4th| +4 | +4 | +4 | +1 | Bonus Feat, Fast Hands +2d4

5th| +5 | +4 | +4 | +1 | Keen Accuracy

6th| +6/+1 | +5 | +5 | +2 | Novice, Uncanny Dodge, Fast Hands +3d4

7th| +7/+2 | +5 | +5 | +2 | Bonus Feat, Called Mark

8th| +8/+3 | +6 | +6 | +2 | Fast Hands +4d4

9th| +9/+4 | +6 | +6 | +3 | Called Mark

10th| +10/+5 | +7 | +7 | +3 | Bonus Feat, Fast Hands +5d4

11th| +11/+6/+1 | +7 | +7 | +3 | Knight, Deadly speed, Called Mark

12th| +12/+7/+2 | +8 | +8 | +4 | Fast Hands +6d4

13th| +13/+8/+3 | +8 | +8 | +4 | Bonus Feat, Called Mark

14th| +14/+9/+4 | +9 | +9 | +4 | Fast Hands +7d4

15th| +15/+10/+5 | +9 | +9 | +5 | Called Mark

16th| +16/+11/+6/+1 | +10 | +10 | +5 | Bonus Feat, Master, Fast Hands +8d4

17th| +17/+12/+7/+2 | +10 | +10 | +5 | Steel Rain

18th| +18/+13/+8/+3 | +11 | +11 | +6 | Fast Hands +9d4

19th| +19/+14/+9/+4 | +11 | +11 | +6 | Master Marksman

20th| +20/+15/+10/+5 | +12 | +12 | +6 | GrandMaster, Fast Hands +10d4
[/table]

Proficiencies: Order of the Bow Initiates are proficient with all simple and all ranged weapons, plus one martial melee weapon of the Initiates choice. With light and medium armor, and with bucklers.

Bonus Feats: Order of the Bow Initiates gain a bonus feat at first level (for which you must still meet the prerequisites for) from the follwing list: Point blank shot(PHB), Precise shot(PHB), Weapon focus(PHB), Rapid Shot(PHB), Far shot(PHB), Zen Archery(CW), Martial Study(Bo9)[only from falling star (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10640971&postcount=7) discipline]

Every additional 3 levels they gain another feat, the list of feats expands at 4th, 10th, and 13th level. The Order of the Bow Initiate may choose from any feat on the given lists as long as they are of the required level(they still must meet the prerequisites for the feat however):

4th: Weapon Specialization(PHB), Manyshot(PHB), Shot on the run(PHB), Mounted Archery(PHB), Sharp-Shooting(CW)


10th: Improved Rapid Shot(CW), Deadeye shot(PHBII), Improved Precise Shot(PHB), Ranged Disarm(CW), Ranged Pin(CW), Greater Weapon Focus(PHB), Greater Weapon Specilization(PHB), Improved critical(PHB)


13th: Ranged Weapon Mastery(PHBII), Penetrating shot(PHBII), Improved Mounted Archery(CW), Ranged Sunder(CW)

Initiate: Initiate is the first rank in the Order, upon entering the order the initiate is schooled in the ways of advanced bowmanship. The Initiate may use his bow as if it were an Elvencraft bow (RotW). A shortbow deals damage as if a club, a longbow deals damage as if it were a quaterstaff and a GreatBow as a Heavy Mace. In addition, the Initiate is capable of bypassing a wall of air or similar effect if he is within 30 ft of the affect, he is able to pass the affect with a 50% chance of success.

Deadly Aim: The second staple ability that the Order teaches its intiates is the ability to deal more damage while only sacrificing a little accuracy. Beginning at first level The Order of the Bow Initiate can choose to take a -1 penalty to attack gaining +1 to damage. This is precision based damage and therefore follows the same rules as 'Fast Hands' ability, this damage applies to all attacks in the round, once chosen all attacks in that round suffer the penalty to hit. The penalty to hit (and therefore the bonus to damage) increases allowing the initiate to take a larger penalty for a larger bonus to damage, the penalty increases by an additional 1 for every 4 levels the initiate has (to a maximum of -6 to hit and +6 damage at 20th).

Way of the Bow: The Order of the bow inititate upholds the bow as the pinnacle acheivement of weaponry, using it as a tool of destruction and protection. The Order of the bow initiate is considered to be a fighter of equal level when qualifying for feats, in addition, The Order of the Bow initiate's levels count as martial intiator levels for his (if any) Falling Star manuevers. The DC for any maneuvers he may have is 10 + Wis mod + Maneuver level.

Fletcher/Bowyer: The initiate becomes so intimate with his weapon that he gains an understanding of it that most do not. He is able to craft magical bows and arrows as if he had the craft arms and armor feat. He must still meet all requirements for creating the items, for purposes of crafting treat the Initiates level as his caster level.

Fast Hands (Ex): A member of the Order of the bow has incredible speed with his hands, so fast that he surpasses the normal limit of the common man. The Initiate gains the ability to, as a swift action once per round, attempt to shoot an arrow with such speed that it catches the target dumbfounded and open to the arrow. The initiate makes a sleight of hand check vs the targets ac, if succesful deals damage as normal (not including deadly aim) and additional precision damage(refer to table). This damage does not apply to creatures without discernable anatomy (like a gelatinous cube) but does apply to undead and any living creature, being immune to critical hits has no affect to this attack, this damage stacks with sneak attack if the target is flat footed or denied its dexterity. This attack must be within 30 ft.

Evasion (Ex): At 3rd level and higher, an Order of the Bow Initiate can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the intiate is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless intiate does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Rope Shot (Ex): The unsung hero of many an adventure group, the Order of the Bow initiate can as a standard action shoot an arrow that has a rope tied to it, the range is halved and it incurs a -4 penalty to shoot, but once an initiate hits his target the arrow is lodged into what ever it was shot at, it can carry up to 500 lbs at once and a maximum of 6 creatures before falling out.

Keen Accuracy (Ex): The Order of the Bow initiate enhances his ability to deliver his deadly arrows with his fast hands, his range for Fast Hands increase by 15 ft.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 6th level, an Order of the Bow Initiate can react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

If an Order of the Bow Initiate already has uncanny dodge from a different class he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

Called Mark (Ex): The Order of the Bow initiate learns to aim at specific parts of the body that debilitate and confuse enemies when using his Fast Hands ability, at 7th level he learns his first mark, he gains another mark at 9th, 11th, 13th and 15th. If the Initiate decides to use a Called Mark as part of his Fast Hands ability he can only shoot one arrow.

7th: Heel Shot, you can when using the Fast hands ability sacrifice an amount of precision damage to make a Heel shot. The initiate aims at the calf, knee or achilles trying to slow it down with sheer accuracy, if hit the target is slowed for one round refer to table below(targets speed cannot be reduced further than 0).

{table=head]Sacrificed Dice|speed penalty
2d4|5ft
4d4|10ft
6d4|15ft
8d4|20ft
10d4|30ft
[/table]

9th: Distracting shot, by trying to inflict more shock and awe than actual damage you can cause your target to become flat footed until your next turn if he fails a Will save with DC equal to the Sleight of hand check made for the attack, this called mark requires you to sacrifice 4d4 precision damage from your Fast Hands ability and lasts for one round.

11th: Armor Chink, The initiate scans his targets armor looking for a chink to abuse, by attempting to lodge an arrow into the chink he attempts to disrupt the suits manuervaribility and function, and in doing so reduces the targets AC by -2. This can only be done to targets wearing manufactured armor, this called mark requires you to sacrifice 5d4 precision damage from your Fast Hands ability and lasts for one round.

13th: Hand/arm shot, by aiming for the hand or arm (or any appendage with primary use) the initiate hopes to make it difficult for spellcasters to cast spells with somatic components. If the target is hit and attempts to cast a spell it must attempt a concentration check DC equal to the sleight of hand to make the attack, this called mark requires you to sacrifice 6d4 precision damage from your Fast Hands ability and lasts for one round.

15th: Head Shot, the most powerful Called mark is the ability to stun opponents, by aiming for the head, the initiate intends to stun the target (whether they wear a helmet or not), if struck the target must make a Fort Save DC equal to the sleight of hand check to make the attack, this called mark requires you to sacrifice 7d4 precision damage from your Fast Hands ability and lasts for one round.

Novice: The Initiate is no longer merely a student learning the ways of the bow, he has become a Novice in the Order and now understands more from the Way of the Bow, he no longer provokes attacks of opportunity while shooting his bow and threatens with his ranged attacks out to 5ft. Additionally the chance of penetrating a wall of air is increased to 75%.

Deadly Speed (Ex): The Order of the bow Initiate has become so adept at firing off an arrow with but a thought he can now fire two arrows simultaneously with his Fast Hands ability, the sleight of hand check to do so is at -4 and must be at the same target, both arrows receive the precision damage.

Knight: The Novice has grown so strong in the way of the Bow that he has become a legendary Knight of the Order of the bow, with his intimate knowledge of the bow and subsequently arrows he can now Deflect arrows once per round with his bow as if he had the feat (but using his bow), this only works if he has his bow in his hand. In addition he can ignore up to one step of increment weather when determining the affects on projectiles. Finally The Knight no longer has a miss chance when shooting through a wall of air or similar ability.

Master: The Knight of the Order has grown to master his art, he is now considered a Master of the Order. He may choose one of the following abilities: Improved Uncanny Dodge, or Improved Evasion.

Steel Rain: As a Full round action, the initiate may let out a flurry of shots to all enemies within 30ft, the inititate rolls one attack at his highest attack and compares it to all the targets AC.

Master Marksman (Sp): So confident in his abilities is the Master of the Order that he can knowingly make a shot with his bow that will hit his target. 3/day a Master of the Order of the Bow can cast True strike as a swift action.

GrandMaster: Having reached the pinnacle of his Order the Master is now known as the GrandMaster of the Order, of which only a handful exist and only a few more have ever reached such a high degree. He can now use his Fast Hands (and Called Mark's accordingly) ability to a range of 60ft, When he uses his bow in melee increase the damage by one die, he can deflect an additional arrow per round with his bow, and finally can fire an additional arrow with his Fast Hands ability with an additional -4.

Epic Progression
Pending

Writers Notes
The enhancement 'splitting' from Champions of Valor causes some issues with this character, as a +3 enhancement it could be affordable early on and then give the DM migraines as he rolls 10-20 damage dice and kills everything before it. Below are some possible solutions:


Disallow the enhancement in your game
Given the Fast Hands Ability is so fast, rule that the enhancement fails to work with it.
Increase the cost to +5 and make it extremely rare akin to the Vorpal enhancement.


Edits

12/13/11 - changed the way Initiate and GrandMaster work with melee bows (added elvencraft from RotW).
-added ability to negate wind wall affects within 30ft.
12/16/11 - Removed mettle, changed weapon profs to only ranged + 1 martial.

Synovia
2011-12-13, 03:56 PM
Still reading the rest, but your Reflex saves are all messed up at 18-20.

BelGareth
2011-12-13, 04:01 PM
Still reading the rest, but your Reflex saves are all messed up at 18-20.

Thanks for pointing that out, I hate those stupid tables, always give me a headache.

EDIT: Fixed.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-13, 04:16 PM
In your proficiencies, you should just say "With light and medium armor, and with bucklers". The way you phrase it now is just off.

Also, you need that "must meet prerequisites" line for the first level bonus feat (you have it for the rest, but not the first)

Initiate: Actually, elvencraft bows from RotW have set a precedent here. Shortbows are clubs, medium bows are quarterstaves, and I believe greatbows would be considered greatclubs. I suggest you change this to reflect that, otherwise someone who picks up a better bow is going to be outdoing your intense melee/ranged mesh training.

Way of the Bow: Maneuvers are a little different from spells. Each maneuver has its own DC, rather than being based on the class of initiator wielding them. (Like Shadow Hand uses Wisdom, Stone Dragon uses Strength, etc), so you should just let the maneuver set the DC, instead of overwriting that with your class.

Fast Hands: Shooting an arrow as a swift action? Boy, that takes me back. Good old AD&D.

Rope Shot: This is nice

And now I don't feel well, so I'm going to stop typing, but it looks pretty good for the first 10 levels.

BelGareth
2011-12-13, 05:14 PM
In your proficiencies, you should just say "With light and medium armor, and with bucklers". The way you phrase it now is just off.
Yeah now that you mention it it is off, fixed.


Also, you need that "must meet prerequisites" line for the first level bonus feat (you have it for the rest, but not the first)
Fixed


Initiate: Actually, elvencraft bows from RotW have set a precedent here. Shortbows are clubs, medium bows are quarterstaves, and I believe greatbows would be considered greatclubs. I suggest you change this to reflect that, otherwise someone who picks up a better bow is going to be outdoing your intense melee/ranged mesh training.
Gah! I remember that's where I got the inspiration from, at the time of writing it I couldn't put my mind to the specificity of it, ah well. I have a good idea on how to fix this. The class is going to treat any bow as an Elvencraft bow, and then later to improve it increase the damage die by one.


Way of the Bow: Maneuvers are a little different from spells. Each maneuver has its own DC, rather than being based on the class of initiator wielding them. (Like Shadow Hand uses Wisdom, Stone Dragon uses Strength, etc), so you should just let the maneuver set the DC, instead of overwriting that with your class.
I know what you mean in regards to this, however I was just pulling it from Zeiganders New Sublime Disciplines (linked as 'Faling Star')



The DCs for any saving throws are 10 +maneuver level + Initiator's Wisdom modifier. Many maneuvers/stances in this discipline have the [Sky] subtype. These maneuvers can only be initiated under the natural sky.




Fast Hands: Shooting an arrow as a swift action? Boy, that takes me back. Good old AD&D.

Rope Shot: This is nice

And now I don't feel well, so I'm going to stop typing, but it looks pretty good for the first 10 levels.
Thanks for the 1st-10th PEACH, Hope your feeling better!

Elfstone
2011-12-13, 06:50 PM
I also, am not feeling amazing..

However my first reaction is to say that Wind Wall still negates the entire class.

I recommend all Archer Classes have a way to bypass this glaring flaw(Im a strong archery supporter, don't get me wrong).

Also... While the Initiate has several awesome options, I think he needs more. Something movement related? What is he doing for defending himself? Purely offense? What if he already has an elvencraft bow. Increase the damage die?

Just my first thoughts.

BelGareth
2011-12-13, 07:06 PM
I also, am not feeling amazing..

However my first reaction is to say that Wind Wall still negates the entire class.

I recommend all Archer Classes have a way to bypass this glaring flaw(Im a strong archery supporter, don't get me wrong).

Also... While the Initiate has several awesome options, I think he needs more. Something movement related? What is he doing for defending himself? Purely offense? What if he already has an elvencraft bow. Increase the damage die?

Just my first thoughts.

Interesting, I, for some reason, had not thought of that. That shall be the initiates additional ability that you asked for.

Movement related options are interesting, His defenses are the 3 reduce save or suck, mettle, evasion and Uncanny dodge.

Thanks for the comments.

EDIT:
I changed the initiate text as follows:


Initiate: Initiate is the first rank in the Order, upon entering the order the initiate is schooled in the ways of advanced bowmanship. The Initiate may use his bow as if it were an Elvencraft bow (RotW). A shortbow deals damage as if a club, a longbow deals damage as if it were a quaterstaff and a GreatBow as a Heavy Mace. In addition, the Initiate is capable of bypassing a wall of air or similar affect if he is within 30 ft of the affect, by altering the trajectory of the arrow he is able to shoot accurately through the affect.

paddyfool
2011-12-13, 07:27 PM
However my first reaction is to say that Wind Wall still negates the entire class.


Some kind of "arc shot" ability to get around obstacles might be handy. As a wind wall is 5' per level high, though, you'd have to be able to fire arrows up in ludicrously high arcs to get around it at higher levels... still, every class should be capable of some ludicrous feats, so that's more or less OK.

Otherwise, there's always the solution of flying over or otherwise moving around a wind wall to shoot whatever's on the other side. (And with regards to flying, a wind wall can't protect someone from a shot from above unless they're standing right inside it). Or, alternatively, if you're Large or have a way to become Large, you could always pull a Ballista (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#siegeEngines) out of a bag of holding and start plinking away (since wind wall specifically doesn't affect siege weapons).

wiimanclassic
2011-12-13, 08:10 PM
Maybe take a round to figure out how to shoot so the wind wall blows the arrow(that was off target) TOWARDS the target.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-13, 08:18 PM
EDIT:
I changed the initiate text as follows:

Granting yourself complete immunity to a 3rd level spell at 1st level is not the answer. I would say that any creature who is protected by a wall of air instead receives a 50% miss chance against the initiate at first, and then maybe at 7th (after wind wall has actually been a factor for 2 to 4 levels) you give the initiate the ability you listed.

BelGareth
2011-12-13, 08:35 PM
Granting yourself complete immunity to a 3rd level spell at 1st level is not the answer. I would say that any creature who is protected by a wall of air instead receives a 50% miss chance against the initiate at first, and then maybe at 7th (after wind wall has actually been a factor for 2 to 4 levels) you give the initiate the ability you listed.

Yes, you are right, a gradual transition would make way more sense here.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-13, 09:10 PM
Okay. I'm feeling a little better so here's the rest of my review!

Uncanny Dodge: You need a clause here stating "and the initiate's class levels stack with the other class's levels for determining the minimum rogue level necessary to Sneak Attack him." (for the Improved part)

Called Mark: You say "If the initiate decides to make a called shot, he can only shoot one arrow." I was under the impression that Fast Hands only ever let you shoot one arrow to begin with (as a swift action, with extra damage). Are you saying that the initiate must forfeit his standard/full attack action to make a called shot, or is there some broken ability in there that's letting the initiate make full-round attacks as a swift action with +10d4 to each shot?

Called Mark (Heel): While the mental image of moonwalking halflings is as funny to me as it is to the next guy, I'm sure all DMs on this site would appreciate you putting "to a minimum move speed of 0 ft" in here, so that none of us have to deal with negative move speeds.

Called Mark (Distracting Shot): This needs to allow a saving throw. Denying your opponent's Dexterity bonus, as well as preventing him from using his immediate actions or making attacks of opportunity, is a very serious condition. I'd say Will.

Novice: You need to state that you threaten creatures with your bow as a ranged weapon. You already threaten creatures with your bow as a melee weapon, since you are proficient with it as an elvencraft bow.

Mettle: Mechanically speaking, there is nothing wrong with this ability, it just seems out of place for this class. I would just give him Improved Evasion here.

Deadly Speed: Oh okay. So you're not giving him a full-round shot as a swift action. Just 2 arrows. Okay, let's take a look at the breakdown here:

Deadly Speed = 2 arrows. Manyshot = 4 arrows. The splitting weapon enhancement doubles all of this. So you're looking at 12 attacks per round, dealing normal arrow damage +40d4, on an optimized build. I am just making sure you are aware of this.

Master: Here's Improved Evasion. Still don't think Mettle fits the class.

Steel Rain: I am quite certain your party members would like that "everyone" changed to "all enemies". :smallbiggrin:

Grandmaster: Nice capstone. Looks good. A real volley class.

Noctis Vigil
2011-12-13, 10:32 PM
My first thought was "holy smokes will he be going through arrows fast!" My second was "Why does he get Mettle?" My third was "Why does he get so many melee proficiencies?" And finally, "Why am I not playing one of these?" :smallbiggrin:

Suggestions: change proficiencies to "all simple and martial ranged weapons, all bows (including exotic bows), and one simple or martial melee weapon of his choice." I'd also suggest adding Bluff to class skills. I'd also suggest adding Quick Draw as a bonus feat somewhere early on (maybe tack it on to Fast Hands). Finally, I suggest giving him something that improves the critical threat range on bows, since unless I'm mistaken you have to roll a 20 to crit with all of them; you have enough levels where he only gets Fast Hand damage you could add this in pretty easily.

All in all, looks great. I'd play one. :smallbiggrin:

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-13, 10:40 PM
Just thought I'd stop by again and suggest you add Dex to damage. That's just how archer fixes generally roll. It's a good idea too.

BelGareth
2011-12-13, 11:16 PM
Called Mark: You say "If the initiate decides to make a called shot, he can only shoot one arrow." I was under the impression that Fast Hands only ever let you shoot one arrow to begin with (as a swift action, with extra damage). Are you saying that the initiate must forfeit his standard/full attack action to make a called shot, or is there some broken ability in there that's letting the initiate make full-round attacks as a swift action with +10d4 to each shot?

No the initiate can make a full attack AND use a swift action to attack with Fast Hands.


Called Mark (Heel): While the mental image of moonwalking halflings is as funny to me as it is to the next guy, I'm sure all DMs on this site would appreciate you putting "to a minimum move speed of 0 ft" in here, so that none of us have to deal with negative move speeds.
Great point, fixed.


Called Mark (Distracting Shot): This needs to allow a saving throw. Denying your opponent's Dexterity bonus, as well as preventing him from using his immediate actions or making attacks of opportunity, is a very serious condition. I'd say Will.
Ok, I wasn't sure about this so I went with no save, but hearing it come from another person lets me know it's needed. Changed it to a Will DC equal to the sleight of hand check for the attack


Novice: You need to state that you threaten creatures with your bow as a ranged weapon. You already threaten creatures with your bow as a melee weapon, since you are proficient with it as an elvencraft bow.
Another great point, hadn't thought about that, fixed.


Mettle: Mechanically speaking, there is nothing wrong with this ability, it just seems out of place for this class. I would just give him Improved Evasion here.
true, I wanted to include it to give the class extra umph and to represent the classes tunnel vision, giving them enhanced resistances. This may or may not stay.


Deadly Speed: Oh okay. So you're not giving him a full-round shot as a swift action. Just 2 arrows. Okay, let's take a look at the breakdown here:

Deadly Speed = 2 arrows. Manyshot = 4 arrows. The splitting weapon enhancement doubles all of this. So you're looking at 12 attacks per round, dealing normal arrow damage +40d4, on an optimized build. I am just making sure you are aware of this.
The breakdown of a optimized build is actually a little worse:

Full round attack w/ Haste (boots of speed), Imp Rapid shot And Manyshot: 6 attacks, 3 of which are all the highest attack, plus some from manyshot.

Swift action for Fast Hands, 2 (or 3 at 20th) with +10d4 each arrow.

So sure splitting would change this up and be just plain retarded, I may have to add a Designers note at the bottom in regards to it the enhancement. My line of thinking is it should not be allowed, or maybe I can add a clause that the Fast Hands ability does not benefit from the splitting enhancement, yes I think that would work.


Master: Here's Improved Evasion. Still don't think Mettle fits the class.
still deciding that too.


Steel Rain: I am quite certain your party members would like that "everyone" changed to "all enemies". :smallbiggrin:
definitely, fixed.


Grandmaster: Nice capstone. Looks good. A real volley class.
Thanks.

Also I fixed the previous wall of air dilemma to changing it to 50% miss chance at Initiate (level 1), 75% at Novice (level 6) and ignore the affect entirely at Master (level 11).

I greatly appreciate your input, you helped out a lot. Thanks so much!

EDIT:


Just thought I'd stop by again and suggest you add Dex to damage. That's just how archer fixes generally roll. It's a good idea too.
Interesting, I was trying to avoid that with the Deadly aim ability, but I may ponder this.

BelGareth
2011-12-13, 11:26 PM
My first thought was "holy smokes will he be going through arrows fast!"

Quiver of Plenty from the Dragon Compendium will easily manage that issue.


My second was "Why does he get Mettle?"
Your not the only one...it was a 'flavor' ability and an additional resilience issue. possibly going to be removed.


My third was "Why does he get so many melee proficiencies?"
Good point, removing some may add the flavor as they do focus on bows....good point sir!


And finally, "Why am I not playing one of these?" :smallbiggrin:
Not sure!:smallbiggrin:


Suggestions: change proficiencies to "all simple and martial ranged weapons, all bows (including exotic bows), and one simple or martial melee weapon of his choice."
The only reason I haven't is due to the melee capability's of the bows, clubs, quarterstaff etc...


I'd also suggest adding Bluff to class skills.
Why?


I'd also suggest adding Quick Draw as a bonus feat somewhere early on (maybe tack it on to Fast Hands).
Good point, I was thinking of adding it to the list, I'm crazy about throwing in feats just cause. It's not required for the class and only add's flavor, if the player wants it then they can get it.


Finally, I suggest giving him something that improves the critical threat range on bows, since unless I'm mistaken you have to roll a 20 to crit with all of them; you have enough levels where he only gets Fast Hand damage you could add this in pretty easily.
Good point, I did in fact forget to add Improved Critical to the feat list. But additional increases to the critical multiplier could easily be added.


All in all, looks great. I'd play one. :smallbiggrin:
Glad you approve, Thanks for stopping by and commenting!

If you do end playing it, could you let me know how it goes?
Thanks!

GuyFawkes
2011-12-13, 11:53 PM
Hurrah for more love to ranged mundane fighters! Don't get me wrong, I love melee, but these guys just have to have some good stuff too. :smallbiggrin:

All right, I guess I will wait for your edits first before commenting. Don't want to be repeating what the others have already said. :smallwink: But on first look, it's nice. I definitely would want to play this. Yep. :smallbiggrin:

BelGareth
2011-12-14, 01:30 AM
Hurrah for more love to ranged mundane fighters! Don't get me wrong, I love melee, but these guys just have to have some good stuff too. :smallbiggrin:

All right, I guess I will wait for your edits first before commenting. Don't want to be repeating what the others have already said. :smallwink: But on first look, it's nice. I definitely would want to play this. Yep. :smallbiggrin:

Critique away, all edits have been done.

GuyFawkes
2011-12-14, 06:27 AM
Note: I don't have any excuse, so if my critique is off, I just suck at this. :smallbiggrin: Alright, here we go:

Skills: Too many skills, too little skill points. Either make this into a 6 + int or remove some skills. Personally I think 6 is better.

HD: d10 for a ranged character may be too much. d8 would be more appropriate. Some even would push for d6, but for me d8 is okay.

BAB/Saves: Seems okay.

Proficiencies: I have to echo with the sentiment of this being proficient with simple, ALL ranged weapons, plus one martial melee.

Bonus Feats: Not sure with the weird interval on introducing new feats, but they look alright.

Initiate: Nice ability. Minor nitpick, it should be effect instead of affect.

Deadly Aim: Nice. Ranged Power Attack. And I like how you used precision based to inflict additional damage. Though fluffwise, it's kinda off, don't you think? I mean deadly aim means you'll be aiming but you instead lose accuracy. I think this would be more sensible if the penalty is against AC since when you aim, you focus more on finding a spot to abuse on your target, and not guarding yourself. Though if you want the exchange to be that way, a different name perhaps?

Way of the Bow: No complaints here, though maybe you should specify here that the feats should be only from your bonus feats list?

Fletcher/Bowyer: Nice ability, though he will still have to multi class to be able to craft magical items, right?

Fast Hands (Ex): Another nice ability and concept. Though for me it doesn't feel to be precision damage, and the way I read through the ability it feels like it should be targeted against flat footed AC. Don't know how to do this, but meh, that's just me. :smalltongue:

Rope Shot: Ahh, utility! I love it! Though this should be something like a feat. Every ranged fighter should have this! :smallbiggrin:

Keen Accuracy: Nice backup for Fast Hands. But it would be nice if this was increasing, like 10 feet every X levels maxing out at a total range of 60 feet. But that's coming from someone who doesn't know balance, so yeah. :smalltongue:

Uncanny Dodge: What NeoSeraphi said about the Improved Uncanny Dodge part.

Called Shots: Honestly, I think it's harder to target someone's heel rather than someone's head. :smallbiggrin: Other than that, I think they are fine.

Novice: I like this. However, seems more logical for a bowman to be able to react to those farther than those adjacent to him. Like maybe he threatens creatures 25 to 30 feet away , but not farther or closer. But again, that's just some weird things I think about. Carry on. :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

Mettle: I don't quite see this for a ranged character.

Deadly Speed (Ex): Nice ability, nothing much to say.

Knight: Negating ranged attacks and being more effective regardless of winds. Nice

Master: Improved feats are nice, but I would like more unique effects for what I would call the main class ability.

Steel Rain: Full attack against all within range is always nice. :smallbiggrin: But I had this in my brew and people didn't like it as something you can do every round. Albeit for mine I put it at a lower level. :smalltongue:

Master Marksman (Sp): Once per day? I have seen this in the falling star discipline as a lower level maneuver, so maybe once per encounter at least?

Grandmaster: I like this. Now I see the 60 feet Fast Hands. Maybe just link it with that.


Well, that's it. Hope it made sense. :smallwink:

BelGareth
2011-12-16, 01:41 PM
Note: I don't have any excuse, so if my critique is off, I just suck at this. :smallbiggrin: Alright, here we go:

Skills: Too many skills, too little skill points. Either make this into a 6 + int or remove some skills. Personally I think 6 is better.

HD: d10 for a ranged character may be too much. d8 would be more appropriate. Some even would push for d6, but for me d8 is okay.

BAB/Saves: Seems okay.

Proficiencies: I have to echo with the sentiment of this being proficient with simple, ALL ranged weapons, plus one martial melee.

Bonus Feats: Not sure with the weird interval on introducing new feats, but they look alright.

Initiate: Nice ability. Minor nitpick, it should be effect instead of affect.

Deadly Aim: Nice. Ranged Power Attack. And I like how you used precision based to inflict additional damage. Though fluffwise, it's kinda off, don't you think? I mean deadly aim means you'll be aiming but you instead lose accuracy. I think this would be more sensible if the penalty is against AC since when you aim, you focus more on finding a spot to abuse on your target, and not guarding yourself. Though if you want the exchange to be that way, a different name perhaps?

Way of the Bow: No complaints here, though maybe you should specify here that the feats should be only from your bonus feats list?

Fletcher/Bowyer: Nice ability, though he will still have to multi class to be able to craft magical items, right?

Fast Hands (Ex): Another nice ability and concept. Though for me it doesn't feel to be precision damage, and the way I read through the ability it feels like it should be targeted against flat footed AC. Don't know how to do this, but meh, that's just me. :smalltongue:

Rope Shot: Ahh, utility! I love it! Though this should be something like a feat. Every ranged fighter should have this! :smallbiggrin:

Keen Accuracy: Nice backup for Fast Hands. But it would be nice if this was increasing, like 10 feet every X levels maxing out at a total range of 60 feet. But that's coming from someone who doesn't know balance, so yeah. :smalltongue:

Uncanny Dodge: What NeoSeraphi said about the Improved Uncanny Dodge part.

Called Shots: Honestly, I think it's harder to target someone's heel rather than someone's head. :smallbiggrin: Other than that, I think they are fine.

Novice: I like this. However, seems more logical for a bowman to be able to react to those farther than those adjacent to him. Like maybe he threatens creatures 25 to 30 feet away , but not farther or closer. But again, that's just some weird things I think about. Carry on. :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

Mettle: I don't quite see this for a ranged character.

Deadly Speed (Ex): Nice ability, nothing much to say.

Knight: Negating ranged attacks and being more effective regardless of winds. Nice

Master: Improved feats are nice, but I would like more unique effects for what I would call the main class ability.

Steel Rain: Full attack against all within range is always nice. :smallbiggrin: But I had this in my brew and people didn't like it as something you can do every round. Albeit for mine I put it at a lower level. :smalltongue:

Master Marksman (Sp): Once per day? I have seen this in the falling star discipline as a lower level maneuver, so maybe once per encounter at least?

Grandmaster: I like this. Now I see the 60 feet Fast Hands. Maybe just link it with that.


Well, that's it. Hope it made sense. :smallwink:

Thanks for your critique!

Removed Mettle and option to gain it later on, changed weapon proficiency to only ranged + 1 martial of choice and made Expert Marksman 3/day.

Veklim
2011-12-17, 05:42 PM
Quite liking this class, it's a valid and reasonable attempt at an archery base class and I think it would work well. You're still very definitely in Tier 4, but it's powerful enough to hold it's own in higher games I dare say.

The Called Mark, head shot ability lacks any sort of duration on the stun effect, but I didn't spot much else which was out of place.

Stycotl
2011-12-18, 06:45 PM
the novice ability needs to be granted a lot earlier; maybe find a way to break it up over the first three levels or something. allowing melee use of your bow helps, but i don't think it fixes the problem of not being able to threaten an area with your ranged weapon until 6th level. and what if your character is using a sling-variant of the class? are we just going to pretend that he can blackjack people with it?

master: i'd boost the fast hands ability at this level. say that even with normal attacks, if your attack is 5 or more points higher than their AC, you can add fast hands damage, or something like that. 2/round at the same target with decreased damage dice isn't as powerful as i think it should be at high levels.

master marksman: by this level, he should be able to use true strike as a free action, so that he can take advantage of attacks of opportunity if available. maybe give 3/day as swift acts earlier on, and then change them to free acts at this level.

Analysis
2011-12-19, 08:35 AM
Just a wild idea... but what about an ability that removes archery miss chances, for whatever reason (blur, cover, wind walls, the works) by 5% per level? Eventually when you are an epic zen-style archer of truth, you can shoot people that no-one else can even touch, which gives you a niche and also makes you a lot better against spellcasters.

BelGareth
2011-12-19, 12:07 PM
the novice ability needs to be granted a lot earlier; maybe find a way to break it up over the first three levels or something. allowing melee use of your bow helps, but i don't think it fixes the problem of not being able to threaten an area with your ranged weapon until 6th level. and what if your character is using a sling-variant of the class? are we just going to pretend that he can blackjack people with it?
Well I have to disagree here, reason I put it at 6th level is so the class has to deal with it and then it's no longer a problem when he becomes a novice. Gives him something to look forward to, its fluffy and it shouldn't be too big a problem 1st - 5th. Just my line of thinking, if you can persuade me otherwise i'll consider it.


master: i'd boost the fast hands ability at this level. say that even with normal attacks, if your attack is 5 or more points higher than their AC, you can add fast hands damage, or something like that. 2/round at the same target with decreased damage dice isn't as powerful as i think it should be at high levels.
That's interesting, you don't think Improved rapid shot, full BAB, haste AND fast hands is enough? That would be an interesting mechanic to increase the affect of it, I kinda like it...

lemme see, a vanilla mage could be doing 15d6 with a fireball (ref for half) not including any metamagic shenanigans...
same level you would be looking to hit with all of your attacks and deal 10d8 + x (x being PBS, Comp str bonuses, magical bonuses etc)

That seems to be pretty much the same, with equivalent chance of failure (having to roll attacks vs a Ref save.) adding it so later levels can get the bonus would be good, as you compare it to a Disintergrate its game over.


master marksman: by this level, he should be able to use true strike as a free action, so that he can take advantage of attacks of opportunity if available. maybe give 3/day as swift acts earlier on, and then change them to free acts at this level.
Free? yeah thats pretty cool, I like it.


Just a wild idea... but what about an ability that removes archery miss chances, for whatever reason (blur, cover, wind walls, the works) by 5% per level? Eventually when you are an epic zen-style archer of truth, you can shoot people that no-one else can even touch, which gives you a niche and also makes you a lot better against spellcasters.
THIS is money, I like this a lot, and it makes sense. Maybe I'll make it as an Epic ability, 21st or something that increases with levels, I've been looking for something like that, or even just add it to the Master ability......

@Both, Thanks for stopping by and reading, I appreciate any comments,concerns,gripes and PEACHs

Grod_The_Giant
2011-12-19, 12:21 PM
Looks pretty good. I'm not sure why you limit Deadly Aim so much more than Power Attack, but it's still nice to have.

My biggest qualm is that this is an archer class, but its abilities require it to be quite close to its foes. For most of his career, he has to be within 45ft of his target to use Fast Hands-- well within charging distance. Steel Wind requires you to be within 30ft of multiple enemies. This is... not optimal for an archer, who'd much rather be a hundred feet away, in a tree.

Veklim
2011-12-19, 07:33 PM
lemme see, a vanilla mage could be doing 15d6 with a fireball (ref for half) not including any metamagic shenanigans...
same level you would be looking to hit with all of your attacks and deal 10d8 + x (x being PBS, Comp str bonuses, magical bonuses etc)

True in everything except one small but important detail. Arrows hit one target at a time, or in a line at the most if you've got a way. Fireball does that damage to a 20ft radius area...