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The Giant
2011-12-14, 12:41 PM
New comic is up.

Guancyto
2011-12-14, 12:44 PM
Oh yes.

Interesting that Nale missed the why of how bards are underpowered in this universe...

ThePhantasm
2011-12-14, 12:44 PM
Nice strip! The last panel was pretty funny. I do wonder who killed Tarquin's wife. Also, I really want Malack to kill Nale...

Merellis
2011-12-14, 12:44 PM
This calls for it! (http://www.dramabutton.com/)

Well, the Order of the Stick certainly have their work cut out for them now. :smalleek:

Candle Jack
2011-12-14, 12:45 PM
So we're transitioning from referencing Star Wars to Indiana Jones now, are we?

Tarquin is right. And more often than not, the antagonists end up somehow dodging all the obstacles that the protagonists had to deal with. It's as though death traps give villains a pass.

ThePhantasm
2011-12-14, 12:49 PM
So we're transitioning from referencing Star Wars to Indiana Jones now, are we?

Windy Canyon does sound reminiscent of the canyon at the end of Last Crusade...

Joseph Silver
2011-12-14, 12:49 PM
It turns out neither Tarquin or Nale killed Penelope. My bet is on one of the other members of the Linear Guild.

ShenCS
2011-12-14, 12:50 PM
Hah, so we know how that other party failed against Tarquin. And why Nale chose his classes. I find it interesting that he may have been a bard had he not misunderstood.
Also, I'm feeling really sorry for Malack :smallfrown:

Mordokai
2011-12-14, 12:50 PM
I'm digging the update schedule here.

Keep on rockin'!

Starscream
2011-12-14, 12:51 PM
It turns out neither Tarquin or Nale killed Penelope. My bet is on one of the other members of the Linear Guild.

I'm thinking maybe she isn't really dead.

AutomatedTeller
2011-12-14, 12:51 PM
Brilliant :)

"That's a meaningless compliment to a shapeshifter." "yes, I know"

"That's not how I raised you!"

Roland Itiative
2011-12-14, 12:52 PM
I don't know why, but Malack's timely interruption made me suspect him of having killed Penelope :smalltongue: EDIT: Less random idea: or maybe the frowning lizardman ambassador from here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html) did it.

Anyway, it's interesting how Tarquin sees the potential of bards... May he be a bard himself (one that does not abide by following the narrative conventions unless they favour him)?

And I'm loving how the last few comics were released while I was online :smallbiggrin:

ThePhantasm
2011-12-14, 12:53 PM
I don't know why, but Malack's timely interruption made me suspect him of having killed Penelope :smalltongue:

I thought that too, but I think he just really really wants to kill Nale.

Darkfyre99
2011-12-14, 12:54 PM
Of all the reasons why Tarquin would consider bards underpowered, not ruling the cosmos through their understanding of narrative causality wasn't one I had considered. Given Tarquin's successes to date, he definitely has a point. :eek:

Trufflehound
2011-12-14, 12:54 PM
Makes you wonder what Roy could have been, had he chosen to be a bard instead of a fighter.

Kish
2011-12-14, 01:00 PM
Hm. Did Orrin or Girard kill Penelope?

...Did Penelope actually die at all, or was her death faked?


Makes you wonder what Roy could have been, had he chosen to be a bard instead of a fighter.
Nonlawful.

ORione
2011-12-14, 01:00 PM
Wait a second. How does Nale know about the ritual?

ThePhantasm
2011-12-14, 01:02 PM
Wait a second. How does Nale know about the ritual?

Sabine and the IFCC. I think. Scratch that, on a reread it seems plain he is talking about Xykon / Redcloak. "I've worked with them before..."

tcrudisi
2011-12-14, 01:04 PM
I suspect Sabine of having killed Penelope due to her reaction when she popped in. It could be about the ritual, but something about it just implies to me that she's got a lot more going on in the background than what she lets on.

RndmNumGen
2011-12-14, 01:05 PM
Wait a second. How does Nale know about the ritual?

Good question... it's not like Xykon would have ever told him, and he certainly didn't learn it from Shojo.

Could they have overheard something while imprisoned in Azure City?

Alaska Fan
2011-12-14, 01:05 PM
Tarquin is falling for Nale's stall tactics far too easily. Redcloak and Xykon aren't going to give Nale the ritual, and we know that only Redcloak knows the truth about the ritual. Someone as impressively genre-savvy as Tarquin shouldn't fall for Nale's half truths. Nor is Tarquin likely to be blinded by lust for power.

And mark me down as one of those who is suspicious of Malack's role. He's not angry enough, and raises Nale's death at odd times in the narrative.

We're not being shown all of the cards...

The Pilgrim
2011-12-14, 01:05 PM
Mandatory "Indiana Jones" reference after Tarquin's exposition, of course.

It's kinda cute to see evil Father and evil Son building the bridges back between them.

faustin
2011-12-14, 01:06 PM
Of all the reasons why Tarquin would consider bards underpowered, not ruling the cosmos through their understanding of narrative causality wasn't one I had considered. Given Tarquin's successes to date, he definitely has a point.

The problem is, trying to overplay the laws of narrative causality can lead to Wrong Genre Savvy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WrongGenreSavvy).
A good narrative is the one which has no problem averting any tropes. For example, in strip #663 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html)

Has anyone noted, now that Team Nale is working for Team Tarquin, they are a classic team themselves? The Durkon vs Malack is coming....

Sunken Valley
2011-12-14, 01:06 PM
That seems like an unusual thing for Tarquin to do. He should know that playing with cosmic powers goes badly.

Also, how is penelope an old woman now but not in Tarquin's flashback? And Both times Tarquin is still same age I think we found a real plot hole.



And who killed penelope?

NerfTW
2011-12-14, 01:07 PM
So we're transitioning from referencing Star Wars to Indiana Jones now, are we?


There haven't been ANY Star Wars references since that one strip. This isn't The Order of the "let's constantly reference and follow the plots of other stories". The only reason people have been finding references is because at it's core, Star Wars is a very simple, common hero's tale, and shares many traits with a lot of stories.


Wait a second. How does Nale know about the ritual?

Because he was working for Xykon originally in Dorukon's dungeon. Also, because the Order and the Sapphire guard both know why Xykon wants a gate. They just don't know Redcloak's real plan.

Roland Itiative
2011-12-14, 01:08 PM
Wait a second. How does Nale know about the ritual?

Nale already suspected (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0378.html) Xykon had found a way of controlling the gates. And Sabine went to her superiors on the IFCC right after learning about the gates herself. It's probable that they, knowing more about Xykon's plans through scrying on V, gave some of that info to the Linear Guild.

Also, the same comic strip linked above indicates that while he was working under Xykon in the dungeon of Dorukan, Nale knew next to nothing about his real plans.

Sethala
2011-12-14, 01:08 PM
Wait a second. How does Nale know about the ritual?

He was hired by Xykon when he first showed up, waaay back. Chances are he found out something about it back then. He may have known about the gate, too, just not that there's more than one or that there's an interdimentional god-killing horror on the other side.

Gift Jeraff
2011-12-14, 01:09 PM
Great strip. Panels like the last are why OOTS is so amazing. And I like how Tarquin finds both of his sons' girlfriends hot.

As for Penelope's killer, Sabine or Qarr not wanting anyone else to get involved seems likely, though I wouldn't rule out a Draketooth or someone new.

rbetieh
2011-12-14, 01:09 PM
Fantastic strip. Of course, it turns out that Tarquin thinks bards are underpowered because they are lazy...I wonder now if he isn't a bard himself.....love that last joke too.

faustin
2011-12-14, 01:10 PM
That seems like an unusual thing for Tarquin to do. He should know that playing with cosmic powers goes badly.

Having control over a Gate isn´t really different to having nuclear armament in the Cold War. Is not about really using it, but the mere menace of that possibility

Sunken Valley
2011-12-14, 01:11 PM
Having control over a Gate isn´t really different to having nuclear armament in the Cold War. Is not about really using it, but the mere menace of that possibility

But Tarquin would know someone would dare him to use the gate. Which he couldn't cause it would kill him.

Whiffet
2011-12-14, 01:12 PM
The title of this comic makes me very happy. :smallbiggrin:

Other things I love about this: Tarquin saying bards should be ruling the cosmos, the lights dimming again, and Nale refusing to say "Dunh Dunh DUNH!"

So... I care more about finding out what happened to Penelope than about Tarquin now planning to take the Gate. Funny how that works.

Hbgplayer
2011-12-14, 01:13 PM
I'm definitly thinking that Malak is going to attack both father and son now; it seems like Tarquin's not going to willingly let Malak kill Nale.
And how did Sabine know where to find Nale?

ThePhantom
2011-12-14, 01:14 PM
And this, like the strip before is setting up Tarquin's fall. He's suffering from pride, overconfidence in the fact that he almost always wins. So, somewhere in the future, there's going to be a fall.

Kish
2011-12-14, 01:17 PM
That seems like an unusual thing for Tarquin to do. He should know that playing with cosmic powers goes badly.

Also, how is penelope an old woman now but not in Tarquin's flashback?

You mean, how is polymorphed Sabine an old woman in the panel where Penelope is left, Sabine is center, and Zz'dtri is right?

Mehangel
2011-12-14, 01:18 PM
I really want to know what class Tarquin is, I keep wanting it to be Bard, but Bards are Non-Lawful... Maybe there is a Lawful Variant for Bard... I just find it difficult that he be anything else... Maybe an Ex-Bard... I really want to know Tarquin's backstory too....

tiercel
2011-12-14, 01:18 PM
Tarquin continues his Awesome, as always, assisted by another chuckle-inducing strip title (and explicit reference to it, and one of the best villain-introductions ever: "Dr. Jones. Again we see there is nothing you can possess which I cannot take away.... And you thought I'd given up.")

The plot thickens on Penelope, as it genuinely appears neither of the two prime suspects for her death ("death"?) are actually guilty... and so much backstory filled in so succinctly.

This will get verrrrry interesting ... although in the case of the Gate, Tarquin may want to consider that seizing the Gate from Our Heroes will put him squarely in the crosshairs of... other interested parties, e.g. a certain lich who's been off-camera for an awfully long time and is doubtlessly awaiting only a dramatic moment to re-appear.

JoseB
2011-12-14, 01:20 PM
Also, how is penelope an old woman now but not in Tarquin's flashback? And Both times Tarquin is still same age I think we found a real plot hole.


... The old woman in the second panel is not Penelope. It is Sabine disguised as fortune teller.

Dr.Epic
2011-12-14, 01:20 PM
Yeah, but then the protagonists manage to defeat you and get it back.

Also, the Nostalgia Critic has something very similar to today's title.

Roland Itiative
2011-12-14, 01:21 PM
I really want to know what class Tarquin is, I keep wanting it to be Bard, but Bards are Non-Lawful... Maybe there is a Lawful Variant for Bard... I just find it difficult that he be anything else... Maybe an Ex-Bard... I really want to know Tarquin's backstory too....

An ex-bard would work nicely. He could have figured his class was underpowered and abandoned it, keeping the meta-knowledge and using it for his own gain instead of just for the sake of a good narrative.

Tarquin definitely could use a "Start of Darkness" of his own :smalltongue:

Sunken Valley
2011-12-14, 01:21 PM
... The old woman in the second panel is not Penelope. It is Sabine disguised as fortune teller.

I worked that out now. But why would penelope not be in the palace?

Whiffet
2011-12-14, 01:25 PM
I worked that out now. But why would penelope not be in the palace?

Penelope is right there in the panel. :smallconfused: On the left. It's Penelope, Sabine, and Zz'dtri.

EDIT: Never mind. I misread and completely misunderstood.

Kish
2011-12-14, 01:26 PM
I worked that out now. But why would penelope not be in the palace?
Because she was going to consult the new fortune teller looking for help to locate Orrin Draketooth and her daughter.

Sunken Valley
2011-12-14, 01:28 PM
Because she was going to consult the new fortune teller looking for help to locate Orrin Draketooth and her daughter.

I'd think Tarquin would send some protection with his wife.

Kish
2011-12-14, 01:31 PM
I'd think Tarquin would send some protection with his wife.
So you envision Tarquin's current wife going about with guards around her wherever she goes, like the President or the Pope, even though Tarquin himself has never been depicted with such an entourage, and even though he seems to regard her death as no more than a mild inconvenience?

Zevox
2011-12-14, 01:39 PM
Heh, okay, I love that last panel. :smallbiggrin:

Also curious that both Tarquin and Nale are under the impression that the other killed Tarquin's most recent wife. Looks like we've got a third party involved there. Girard's family, perhaps?

Zevox

Psyren
2011-12-14, 01:39 PM
Or she did have bodyguards, who are simply off-panel. Does it really matter either way, Sunken?

I know I wouldn't want my whole entourage overhearing my fortunes, especially when they work for my untrustworthy husband.


My theory: Orrin faked her death, to save his mother from the cruel tyrant's whims.

Anarion
2011-12-14, 01:40 PM
So you envision Tarquin's current wife going about with guards around her wherever she goes, like the President or the Pope, even though Tarquin himself has never been depicted with such an entourage, and even though he seems to regard her death as no more than a mild inconvenience?

Tarquin generally does go about with guards, or is walking in an area such as the palace where there are guards near all the doors and many of them within earshot. Plus, his wife was probably not as strong as he is, so would need the guards more. On the other hand, maybe she did have multiple PC class levels and she's not really dead at all, but ran away with Orrin instead while faking her death.

Aside from what happened to Penelope, this comic had a lot of great lines. I particularly love that Tarquin has the lighting effects installed everywhere in the palace for whenever he needs them. I almost expect the next comic to cut to Elan on the carpet suddenly saying "dunh dunh DUNH" as he has in the past.

jidasfire
2011-12-14, 01:44 PM
I'll second Kish's vote and assume that the Draketooth clan is responsible for Penelope's death. They seem like the type to keep their secrets at all costs, and though I'm sure they're Chaotic, I doubt very much that most (or any) of them are Good. This also means they have a spy of their own in Tarquin's empire. I'm having a hard time figuring out who it might be, if it's someone we already know, so for now I'll guess we haven't met them.

Kish
2011-12-14, 01:48 PM
Tarquin generally does go about with guards, or is walking in an area such as the palace where there are guards near all the doors and many of them within earshot.
Yes, but Sunken Valley is suggesting that it's a plot hole that guards aren't actually depicted squeezed into that panel.

Lynn
2011-12-14, 01:50 PM
So Tarquin helped Elan with this trope in mind, before even knowing what Macguffing he is after. Can this man even breath without it being part of a gambit?

Yendor
2011-12-14, 01:52 PM
Yeah, I'm betting the Draketeeth are responsible for Penelope's death. (It wouldn't surprise me if they considered shacking up with Tarquin to be sufficient motive.)

brionl
2011-12-14, 01:54 PM
Hmm, Maybe Tarquin's father was a Bard? The daddy issues don't fall far from the family tree after all.

Could the Draketooths have been the ones to kill Penelope? We already know they are "not nice" from their prior treatment of her. They've probably got informants in the palace, and/or they may have noticed Z's scrying of the area around them.



Yeah, I'm betting the Draketeeth are responsible for Penelope's death. (It wouldn't surprise me if they considered shacking up with Tarquin to be sufficient motive.)

Well, she seems to have been married for several years. Nale was familiar with her story, so she was around before the big battle, exile, and reward offer. Which was "two years ago", IIRC.

terenes
2011-12-14, 01:55 PM
I bet it was Girrard's gang who killed wife of Tarquin.

I think Girrard could have fallen during guarding gate and became evil. Paranoya, rules are for weaklings, personal goal of guarding gate above EVERYTHING etc.

Moreover it seems clear to me that Tarquin KNEW how Nale will evade death (by hiding informations). T. had a smile such as "you are doing just as I taught you". I hope Malack will find out his treachery and kill both of them in the end.

Maxios
2011-12-14, 01:55 PM
I have a feeling Tarquin won't make it out of this book alive :smalleek:.

Laws of Chaos
2011-12-14, 01:55 PM
Thanks Giant for another great comic!

I'm starting to lean toward Malak having a hand in the death of Tarquin's wife as well.

I'm impressed that Nale could piece together what's going on so well from what he most likely overheard Xykon talking about and what he learned about the gates. But on an up note, this will encourage Tarquin to go after Xykon directly. Granted, that may not go well for everyone else.

Kish
2011-12-14, 01:56 PM
I have a feeling Tarquin won't make it out of this book alive :smalleek:.
We can hope.

ungolhir
2011-12-14, 01:56 PM
Very interesting. It looks to me like Tarquin, in the fourth panel, has already figured out who may have killed Penelope. It also seems to me like Malack's desire to kill Nale is being held back just a little bit too easily, despite his relationship to Tarquin.

Oh, but Nale, you just said "dunh dunh DUNH!" for him.

I also like the interaction between Tarquin and Sabine. I never realized that Tarquin had met Sabine before...

pendell
2011-12-14, 02:01 PM
A raiders of the lost arc reference? What else can I do but applaud madly?

Still, I'm surprised at Tarquin. Surely he knows what happens to the villains in all those stories , right? Why get involved with a god-killing abomination when he's already doing so well?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Warmage
2011-12-14, 02:02 PM
Xykon needs a high level divine spellcaster to complete the ritual and Redcloak is becoming less reliable. Tarquin has a high level divine spellcaster on his team. Hmmm....

CoffeeIncluded
2011-12-14, 02:05 PM
Oh crap, Tarquin's right, the antagonists always snatch the Macguffin from the protagonists, unless it's the last in the group, and there's still one more gate to go after this! :smalleek:


...On a slightly less "Oh Crap!" note, now I'm pretty sure Penelope's death really was "Mysterious Circumstances."

Laws of Chaos
2011-12-14, 02:07 PM
Xykon needs a high level divine spellcaster to complete the ritual and Redcloak is becoming less reliable. Tarquin has a high level divine spellcaster on his team. Hmmm....

now THAT is a scary thought! the only saving graced the multiverse would have is that the battle of egos would be devistating

Dracarot
2011-12-14, 02:09 PM
The plot's thickening at an exponential rate, murder supsects found innocent only to more than double the list of other suspects! New possible alliances, back stabbings and defections possible anywhere and everywhere! This is going to be good...

Peelee
2011-12-14, 02:15 PM
Tarquin is falling for Nale's stall tactics far too easily.

If by "stall tactics," you mean "Nale cashing in all his chips to stay alive," then yes, Tarquin IS falling for the stall tactics.


Redcloak and Xykon aren't going to give Nale the ritual, and we know that only Redcloak knows the truth about the ritual.

Tarquin doesn't know that, and nobody knows Redcloak is holding the truth of the ritual so close to his vest. What we as the audience know is immaterial to how characters will react in the comic.


Someone as impressively genre-savvy as Tarquin shouldn't fall for Nale's half truths. Nor is Tarquin likely to be blinded by lust for power.

What makes Nales statements half truths? He is telling all he knows in a desperate bid to save himself. Also, genre-savviness is not godhood. Tarquin can still be deceived. I don't understand why everyone thinks, "Tarquin is genre-savvy, so why has he not forseen every possible circumstance and possibility as if he were omniscient?" He has used his abilities to become as powerful as he is. That does NOT mean he is infallible!


And mark me down as one of those who is suspicious of Malack's role. He's not angry enough, and raises Nale's death at odd times in the narrative.

I disagree. Tarquin stopped Malack's revenge for Nale to tell his story, which was the only thing saving his life at the moment. As soon as the story was over, and Nale and Tarquin started talking about something else (in this case, the death of Tarquin's wife), Nale's immunity from Malack was no longer in play. It seems like a perfect time for a furious Malack to interject and go for the jugular. How do you see it as an odd time, or not enough rage?

Bulldog Psion
2011-12-14, 02:16 PM
Well, well, so it seems likely that neither Tarquin nor Nale killed Penelope. I'm going to go with Malack, myself -- he seemed rather eager to interrupt Nale's denial there.

Tarquin is turning more into a scenery-chewing villain here than he had been. Of course, it's hard for a knave not to take the Saruman route when the equivalent of the One Ring is dangled in front of them. :smallwink:

Landis963
2011-12-14, 02:20 PM
There go the dimmers again...

Sunken Valley
2011-12-14, 02:24 PM
Yes, but Sunken Valley is suggesting that it's a plot hole that guards aren't actually depicted squeezed into that panel.

It's not a plot hole. It's just un-Tarquin. In fact this strip is un-Tarquin.

I can see yeah, they might have had guards out of shot. But wouldn't Tarquin know about the fortune teller? Would he not background check her? I'd think he'd make sure the fortune teller went to the palace. She could be a kidnapper. Plus "New fortune teller in town". EoB is a city. That's probably just poor word choice but it's odd.

Why would Tarquin rush into conquest of the gate? He doesn't want a mega empire. He would probably just keep up the scam. It's working well. Why would he risk blowing his "general" persona and his party's cover for a gate? He knows Elan will defeat him. Just stick with the old plan.

Tarquin, Xykon's tougher than you. Nale knows that. You should too. Why are you risking everything to hang with the Big bad. You will be remembered as Big bad Wannabe if you do.

What do you want with a gate? It's mighty difficult to control and requires manipulating a undead. That's...impossible. I can see you want to protect the gate but control it? It will blow you up.

Also, you should know it's the penultimate gate. Nale just finished telling you. You'll die because it's not the final level.

You were such good friends with Elan and team. Why betray them except when Elan tries to stop your scam.

And if Bard's are so great, why are you not one?

CoffeeIncluded
2011-12-14, 02:30 PM
Tarquin, Xykon's tougher than you. Nale knows that. You should too. Why are you risking everything to hang with the Big bad. You will be remembered as Big bad Wannabe if you do.

To be fair, I don't think Tarquin knows much about Xykon.

Doug Lampert
2011-12-14, 02:32 PM
I disagree. Tarquin stopped Malack's revenge for Nale to tell his story, which was the only thing saving his life at the moment. As soon as the story was over, and Nale and Tarquin started talking about something else (in this case, the death of Tarquin's wife), Nale's immunity from Malack was no longer in play. It seems like a perfect time for a furious Malack to interject and go for the jugular. How do you see it as an odd time, or not enough rage?Yep, it's not unreasonable to suppose that Malack is willing to trust that Tarquin will eventually get arround to giving him Nale. Hence he'll wait any time Tarquin has a plausible reason to keep Nale alive.

Presumably after years of working together Malack knows how Tarquin works, he may even have interrupted just to provide some "bad cop" to drag something more out of Nale (if so it worked).

Kato
2011-12-14, 02:32 PM
Hehe, not that it wasn't a good chapter but the punch line totally made it for me. "That's not how I raised you!"

Hm... guess w got another, efficient antagonist... unless Tarquin is just playing with Nale... dunno.

rbetieh
2011-12-14, 02:40 PM
Well, well, so it seems likely that neither Tarquin nor Nale killed Penelope. I'm going to go with Malack, myself -- he seemed rather eager to interrupt Nale's denial there.

Tarquin is turning more into a scenery-chewing villain here than he had been. Of course, it's hard for a knave not to take the Saruman route when the equivalent of the One Ring is dangled in front of them. :smallwink:

I'm going with either The Empress or KillKill at this point. If the nine sides include OOTS, Saphire Guard, Draketooths, Team Evil, IFCC, Linear Guild, Tarquin, and Serinis group, that leaves a spot open for an Evil God, like a very much involved in this comic Tiamat, who has every reason to be making moves in this world especially after the V incident. I would put every dragon/kobold as a possible agent of Tiamat by now.

Sweetie Welf
2011-12-14, 02:42 PM
Tarquin is awesome. I can't wait for him to meet Xykon :elan:

Gift Jeraff
2011-12-14, 02:43 PM
If the nine sides include OOTS, Saphire Guard, Draketooths, Team Evil, IFCC, Linear Guild, Tarquin, and Serinis groupThe strip which mentions the 9 sides makes it very clear that Team Evil counts as 2 sides.

WickedWizard17
2011-12-14, 02:47 PM
Aw, crud. :smalleek:

WHO ELSE THINKS MALACK KILLED PENELOPE?

. . . Dun dun DUNH!!!!

And I agree with Tarquin, being Dangerously Genre Savvy is DANGEROUS . . . for your enemies.

And y'know, the whole nine sides thing, that was just a throwaway gag from the roaches, maybe we should stop obsessing over it. However, knowing the Giant, he may have it turn out for there to be nine sides after all. He's just that awesome . . . and Genre Savvy. :smallwink:

The_Final_Stand
2011-12-14, 02:50 PM
I can't help but notice that Nale says "You won't get it from them without my help". That says nothing about if Nale actually is helping.

Gift Jeraff
2011-12-14, 02:57 PM
And y'know, the whole nine sides thing, that was just a throwaway gag from the roaches, maybe we should stop obsessing over it. However, knowing the Giant, he may have it turn out for there to be nine sides after all. He's just that awesome . . . and Genre Savvy. :smallwink:The Giant mentions meeting one of the nine sides at the end of DStP's commentary, and he's always foreshadowed some pretty big things at the end of each commentary (the OOTS's romantic subplots, Julia, Elan's prestige class, V's Faustian pact, and apparently a major character death for this book). So, no, I don't think it was just a throwaway gag.

the_tick_rules
2011-12-14, 03:04 PM
Is there any functional family in OOTS?

Peelee
2011-12-14, 03:05 PM
I'm wondering about all the reactions thinking Malack is now the top contender for Penelope's murderer. It seems more like a Draketooth would have done the deed, since she was getting closer to finding them (well, she and unbeknownst to her, the LG).

Three elements of murder are means, motive and opportunity. As for finding suspects, means and opportunity are not nearly as important at the moment as motive. Draketooth has the closes thing to motive that I can spot. What possible motives could Malack (or Qarr, or any other name thrown out as a suspect) have? I'm intrigued by this, as it can be quite refreshing to have a different perspective on the matter. Am I not seeing some things, or are these names just being thrown out as crowd favorites/blind hunches?

Boogastreehouse
2011-12-14, 03:09 PM
Wait a second. How does Nale know about the ritual?

In the first panel here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html), "Elan" is actually Nale in disguise.

Garwain
2011-12-14, 03:17 PM
I'm not so fond on the whole 'genre savvy' arguments from T. It feels a bit too metagaming to me.



Anyway, how come Tarquin is so amicable with Sabine? Did they meet before?

ThePhantasm
2011-12-14, 03:29 PM
Anyway, how come Tarquin is so amicable with Sabine? Did they meet before?


Yes. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html).......

Kish
2011-12-14, 03:38 PM
And y'know, the whole nine sides thing, that was just a throwaway gag from the roaches, maybe we should stop obsessing over it. However, knowing the Giant, he may have it turn out for there to be nine sides after all. He's just that awesome . . . and Genre Savvy. :smallwink:
The roach said "at least nine," not "exactly nine." I'm sure there are at least nine sides, at least if you count them the way that maximizes the number of sides, but I doubt very much if Rich is carefully calculating it so there will be no more and no less than nine sides fighting over the Gate by the end.

Though, considering people disagree vehemently on what constitutes "a side," I'm sure that, for some people, the final tally will come out to nine.

I can't help but notice that Nale says "You won't get it from them without my help". That says nothing about if Nale actually is helping.
Or if he could help. It would amuse me greatly if Tarquin just fell prey to the lies-of-which-the-parts-are-true word game he's so fond of himself.
:nale: Tell Xykon you're my father, I allied with him once.
:xykon: You're the father of Nale? That idiot who didn't fulfill his contract? Maximized Energy Drain!
:nale: What? I said you wouldn't get the ritual from him without my help. That's true; I realized a while ago that he'll never give the ritual to anyone who isn't his abject slave, and you'd have to be stupider than Elan to risk trying to get him to. I never said you could get the ritual from him with my help.

Is there any functional family in OOTS?
Redcloak's family seemed pretty functional.

Before he became Redcloak, that is.

I'm not so fond on the whole 'genre savvy' arguments from T. It feels a bit too metagaming to me.
You're reading entirely the wrong webcomic then.

Morph Bark
2011-12-14, 03:38 PM
And here I am now almost half-expecting Tarquin to be a Bardblade now. :smalltongue:

Caractacus
2011-12-14, 03:40 PM
This is interesting. Especially if Tarquin and Xykon meet, since Xykon believes that power is power, but Tarquin is more into knowledge and subtle manipulation - two things that Xykon is very bad about and needs Redcloak for...

I am very happy about everything. :smallcool:

FlawedParadigm
2011-12-14, 03:43 PM
Is there any functional family in OOTS?

Of course there is. You can't spell dysfunctional without functional anyhow.

Querzis
2011-12-14, 03:52 PM
A raiders of the lost arc reference? What else can I do but applaud madly?

Still, I'm surprised at Tarquin. Surely he knows what happens to the villains in all those stories , right?

The same thing that happen to villains in the story he is currently in (that is, being the lawful evil overlord of a desert nation)? He always knew he was gonna get killed, he just want it to be a death as awesome as possible after a life filled with power and wealth.


Why get involved with a god-killing abomination when he's already doing so well?

Same reason he would get involved with conquering a continent when he was already doing so well as an adventurer. You can always have more.


I can see yeah, they might have had guards out of shot. But wouldn't Tarquin know about the fortune teller? Would he not background check her? I'd think he'd make sure the fortune teller went to the palace. She could be a kidnapper. Plus "New fortune teller in town". EoB is a city. That's probably just poor word choice but it's odd.

...why would he care about any of this? Do you seriously think Tarquin has the time to run a background check on absolutely every people that go through his empire? Why would he care if shes a kidnapper anyway? Why do you assume he seriously give a crap about his wife, he seemed nothing more then mildly annoyed at her death.


Why would Tarquin rush into conquest of the gate? He doesn't want a mega empire.

Hum, yes he does. He most definitly does. The whole point of the scam is to end up with a mega empire. What he doesnt care about is if people know hes ruling it or not.


Tarquin, Xykon's tougher than you. Nale knows that. You should too. Why are you risking everything to hang with the Big bad. You will be remembered as Big bad Wannabe if you do.

He doesnt know Xykon and he doesnt even know who Nale is talking about right now...whats with people apparently thinking Tarquin is a frigging omniscient god? Also, destroying the weakened winner after a confrontation between Girard clan and Xykon shoudnt be too hard.


What do you want with a gate? It's mighty difficult to control and requires manipulating a undead.

Nope it doesnt. What does manipulating undead has anything to do with anything. Also, even assuming it would require undead powers (once again, it doesnt) why do you keep assuming Tarquin is omniscient? Both him and Nale dont know what the frigging ritual is.


You were such good friends with Elan and team. Why betray them except when Elan tries to stop your scam.

...why not? Also, Elan is just not likely to go up against his father unless Tarquin push him a little. Beside, hes not really betraying them, hes just making sure they dont kill his son. Tarquin never had the intention of letting people kill Nale (or Elan for that matter). Bottom line is, stop thinking Tarquin is an undefeatable omniscient god who knows absolutely everything about the story.


This is interesting. Especially if Tarquin and Xykon meet, since Xykon believes that power is power, but Tarquin is more into knowledge and subtle manipulation - two things that Xykon is very bad about

Very bad about? Xykon, the epic lich sorcerer, very bad at knowledge and subtle manipulation? Mind you, I'll have to agree with the subtle part but otherwise, yeah, go read Start of Darkness and dont confuse not knowing with not caring. And by the way, knowledge is power...no really, Xykon consider knowledge and manipulation to just be another form of power, just like a frigging bonus to listen check or the ability to crush someone neck.

Barstro
2011-12-14, 04:00 PM
…it is always the protagonists who sweat and bleed and die…

Foreshadowing on Belkar's last breath?

Peelee
2011-12-14, 04:06 PM
*snip*whats with people apparently thinking Tarquin is a frigging omniscient god? ....*snip* why do you keep assuming Tarquin is omniscient?....*snip* Bottom line is, stop thinking Tarquin is an undefeatable omniscient god who knows absolutely everything about the story.

Thank you, good sir! I was wondering if anyone shared my view on that

AutomatedTeller
2011-12-14, 04:10 PM
I kind of figure that Sabine killed Penelope, on orders to delay everyone until Xykon, so as to increase the chaos.

Sunken Valley
2011-12-14, 04:13 PM
@Querziz: Yeah, Tarquin doesn't care about his wives (except Elan's mum before the divorce).

Tarquin says he doesn't want a mega empire because "that will attract the elves". Not even the Snarl will stop the elves. Well it will but then it will stop him.

Simple common sense will tell T to stay away from Xykon.
Premise one: only one group of people have the ritual.
Premise two: this is either a hermit "Mcguffin granter" or the big bad.
Premise three: I am not the big bad of Elan's story (yet).
Premise four: quick quiz of Nale says its the big bad.
Premise five: when two villains get together, the weaker one dies.
Premise six: The lich sorceror is the stronger villain.
Conclusion: I stay away from the big bad.

Manipulating the undead totally comes into it. The only way to get the ritual is to get Xykon and Redcloak.

He doesn't need to push Elan. He wants Elan to finish his plotline before getting to him. Helping him is in best interest.

Also this is a ruining of what Tarquin could have been. I saw him as an inverse Miko. Miko was a bastion of good until the near end, but she was also an antagonist for a team of mostly goodies. So she was a good antagonist. Tarquin is a man who is unspeakably evil. But he wants to stay on the good guys side and helps them out. True it is for the selfish reason of Elan defeating him but he is a helpful figure. Now he's transformed into a genre blind cartoon character (the irony is not lost on me). At least he'll die as I have long predicted. Death by Xykon, with a little hannibal lecture.

SamBurke
2011-12-14, 04:13 PM
Awesome. Fourth wall? G'bye.

THE PLOT THICKENS. As I predicted in the last thread, might I add...

Aaron
2011-12-14, 04:23 PM
You know, it would be really funny if it turned out that the OOTS was watching this discussion.

:elan: See Roy? I told you there would be big plot exposition right after we left. :smallbiggrin:

Onyavar
2011-12-14, 04:31 PM
...Did Penelope actually die at all, or was her death faked?

I'm thinking maybe she isn't really dead.

Exaxtly what I thought. If that, Penelope is Aunt Ivy! :smallcool:

Peelee
2011-12-14, 04:31 PM
@Querziz: Yeah, Tarquin doesn't care about his wives (except Elan's mum before the divorce).

I agree with you on this point.


Tarquin says he doesn't want a mega empire because "that will attract the elves". Not even the Snarl will stop the elves. Well it will but then it will stop him.

Panel 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0820.html). If Tarquin doesn't want to expand into a mega-empire, what conquest plans could he have that a decade of time could be shaved off? Nale would be dead, because his knowledge would have been useless.


Simple common sense will tell T to stay away from Xykon.
Premise one: only one group of people have the ritual.
Premise two: this is either a hermit "Mcguffin granter" or the big bad.
Premise three: I am not the big bad of Elan's story (yet).
Premise four: quick quiz of Nale says its the big bad.
Premise five: when two villains get together, the weaker one dies.
Premise six: The lich sorceror is the stronger villain.
Conclusion: I stay away from the big bad.

You are assuming Tarquin knows anything about Xykon. There's no indication this is the case. Hell, there's no indication that Tarquin even knows who Xykon even IS.


Manipulating the undead totally comes into it. The only way to get the ritual is to get Xykon and Redcloak.

Wait, what? What you just said in no way supports your statement that manipulating the undead comes into it. Unless you mean manipulating Xykon. In which case, no, that does not come into play, because Xykon is completely unnecessary to get to the ritual. He's just the high-level arcane component needed to complete it.

Ron Miel
2011-12-14, 04:37 PM
Is there any functional family in OOTS?

The Starshines. A few disagreements between father and daughter, but no major conflicts.


The strip which mentions the 9 sides makes it very clear that Team Evil counts as 2 sides.

Not really, no.

Querzis
2011-12-14, 04:38 PM
Tarquin says he doesn't want a mega empire because "that will attract the elves".

Correction, he doesnt want the elves to know he has a mega empire. His whole plan is to rule the entire desert, how could that be considered anything else then wanting a mega empire?


Simple common sense will tell T to stay away from Xykon.
Premise one: only one group of people have the ritual.

Well for starter that premise is wrong. The Order of the Scribbles also knew about it and, considering the fact that Redcloak got it from his god, presumably any god could make one of his cleric learn it. Thing is, no other god want the Snarl on the loose. Not that I have any idea why you are apprently once again assuming Tarquin (or Nale for that matter) could actually know this for sure.


Premise two: this is either a hermit "Mcguffin granter" or the big bad.

Or a god. Or a member of the Order of Scribbles. Or a relative of a member of the Order of Scribbles. Or anything really.


Premise three: I am not the big bad of Elan's story (yet).

...he make it pretty clear that he think he is actually and that «Elan little quest» is just a way for him to gain level so he can come back to fight him.



Premise five: when two villains get together, the weaker one dies.

I saw the opposite happen quite often, either through trickery or by letting the stronger villains tire himself on the heroes/guards/whatever and finishing him off.


Premise six: The lich sorceror is the stronger villain.

HE. DOESNT. KNOW. XYKON! Geez, stop thinking hes omniscient already.


Manipulating the undead totally comes into it. The only way to get the ritual is to get Xykon and Redcloak.

Ok so you really didnt read Start of Darkness. Redcloak needed an epic arcane caster for the ritual. Thats it. Its specialties are utterly irrevelant and Xykon wasnt even a lich back then.


He doesn't need to push Elan. He wants Elan to finish his plotline before getting to him. Helping him is in best interest.

Which he did by putting his group back together without a fuss and giving them an item to get there faster. What he isnt gonna do is let Elan kill Nale.


Also this is a ruining of what Tarquin could have been. I saw him as an inverse Miko. Miko was a bastion of good until the near end, but she was also an antagonist for a team of mostly goodies. So she was a good antagonist. Tarquin is a man who is unspeakably evil. But he wants to stay on the good guys side and helps them out. True it is for the selfish reason of Elan defeating him but he is a helpful figure. Now he's transformed into a genre blind cartoon character (the irony is not lost on me). At least he'll die as I have long predicted. Death by Xykon, with a little hannibal lecture.

I would greatly argue about Miko being still a bastion of good at the end but I suppose thats not the point. The point is that Tarquin is not being genre blind in the very least in this strip. What he is being is not frigging omniscient!

NerfTW
2011-12-14, 04:42 PM
THE PLOT THICKENS. As I predicted in the last thread, might I add...

"The plot is going to thicken" is not exactly a deep and startling revelation after 821 strips of twists and turns.

I predict that Belkar is going to annoy Roy at some point. Now when it comes true, I can say "look what I predicted!" as well! :smallcool:

Aldrakan
2011-12-14, 04:45 PM
You are assuming Tarquin knows anything about Xykon. There's no indication this is the case. Hell, there's no indication that Tarquin even knows who Xykon even IS.

This actually supports something I said ages back - last we heard he still thinks that Elan is the leader of the party. This makes him think that he's the primary villain and the one they're fighting atm is a lesser enemy Elan's dealing with before he's ready to fight his father. He doesn't know that Roy is the leader and Xykon is his main enemy, so he doesn't take Xykon seriously.
He's being genre savvy, but his conclusions are faulty because he assumed his son was in charge.

ThePhantasm
2011-12-14, 04:46 PM
"The plot is going to thicken" is not exactly a deep and startling revelation

lol :smallbiggrin:

faustin
2011-12-14, 04:48 PM
Or if he could help. It would amuse me greatly if Tarquin just fell prey to the lies-of-which-the-parts-are-true word game he's so fond of himself.

:nale:Tell Xykon you're my father, I allied with him once.
:xykon:You're the father of Nale? That idiot who didn't fulfill his contract? Maximized Energy Drain!
:nale:What? I said you wouldn't get the ritual from him without my help. That's true; I realized a while ago that he'll never give the ritual to anyone who isn't his abject slave, and you'd have to be stupider than Elan to risk trying to get him to. I never said you could get the ritual from him with my help.


I seriously doubt Xykon can remember Nale more than he usually remembers Roy.

And yes, I totally want to see how a Magnificent Bastard like Tarquin tries to manipulate a total psycho epic level lich like Xykon. An excellent opportunity to get more epic wisdom speeches from our favorite bad guys.

Kish
2011-12-14, 05:09 PM
Well for starter that premise is wrong. The Order of the Scribbles also knew about it

No.

The Order of the Scribble members know how to make Gates. Redcloak and the Dark One, and perhaps only them, know a ritual to permit a god to change where a rift appears. There has never been any indication that the Order of the Scribble know Redcloak's ritual.

Nale's information is, of course, limited. I'm surprised he even knows there is a ritual, instead of just, "Xykon has some plan to use the Gates in some way."

Michaeler
2011-12-14, 05:11 PM
I am suspecting that Sabine killed both Penelope and Malack's family, the latter to fulfil her other employers' goals of creating destructive meaningless conflict.

Sunken Valley
2011-12-14, 05:21 PM
I think Geoff killed her. That's why he's always acting edgy and saying to go back to Ivy. To frame Ian. Makes no sense, but it has to be something about Penelope and Ivy being the same (more evidence to support this: Penelope's child having the starshine strand and Rich being tight lipped on Ivy).

NegativeFifteen
2011-12-14, 05:23 PM
Well, Tarquin and Nale have hilarious banter, Tarquin becomes funnier and funnier, I have to remind myself how evil Tarquin is, and I'm waiting for the moment when Malack snaps and kills them all.

CoffeeIncluded
2011-12-14, 05:26 PM
This actually supports something I said ages back - last we heard he still thinks that Elan is the leader of the party. This makes him think that he's the primary villain and the one they're fighting atm is a lesser enemy Elan's dealing with before he's ready to fight his father. He doesn't know that Roy is the leader and Xykon is his main enemy, so he doesn't take Xykon seriously.
He's being genre savvy, but his conclusions are faulty because he assumed his son was in charge.

Exactly! There are four things that can defeat a Magnificent Bastard that I can think of right now:

1. Defeating him in combat, but that doesn't always work.
2. Out-gambitting him. Extremely difficult, but not impossible.
3. Spanner in the works. Which, as we know, is Elan's thing. Honestly, I think Tarquin's downfall is going to be because of Elan doing something completely...Elan-ish.
4. Unforseen circumstances and externalities. Tarquin knows a lot, yes, but he doesn't know everything. For several weeks he did not know that the Linear Guild had returned; he thought Zzdrti was a random Drow ambassador. In that short timeframe, Nale had had the opportunity to catch his father off-guard.

Tarquin does not know about Xykon. He probably doesn't know the exact ritual of the gates. He does not know that Roy is the leader of the party, and he's genre-savvy enough that if he did know how much of a Spanner Elan can be, he'd be a lot more hesitant to get him involved. Oh, and he doesn't know about Xykon.

FlawedParadigm
2011-12-14, 05:37 PM
He also doesn't know why kids go coo-coo for Cocoa Puffs.

bronnt
2011-12-14, 05:38 PM
Love this strip. I like that the apparent throwaway of a death due to "mysterious circumstances," has now come back to be a plot point. At least, something worth discussing. It might still end up meaningless, a sort of red herring, but it's fun when these things come back.

Peelee
2011-12-14, 05:41 PM
Well, I'm wondering what Tarquin and everyone else thinks this ritual will actually do? Xykon may not be the most tactically-minded, but I doubt he'd be telling people that he is soon to control the gates through the ritual. Everyone may assume that, but even then their assumptions may be different amongst themselves. It'd be interesting to see what each character thinks the ritual would do...

dps
2011-12-14, 05:41 PM
It turns out neither Tarquin or Nale killed Penelope. My bet is on one of the other members of the Linear Guild.

I had suggested before that Orrin Draketooth or someone connected with him had killed her, which I still think is the most likely scenario. However, notice that Malack spoke up as soon as the topic came up? That makes him a possible suspect in my mind. I have no idea what his motive might have been, though.

Gift Jeraff
2011-12-14, 05:41 PM
By the way, nice parallel in how Elan/Nale blabbed about their quests to Tarquin and Haley/Sabine telling them not to.

fibonacciseries
2011-12-14, 05:44 PM
"The plot is going to thicken" is not exactly a deep and startling revelation after 821 strips of twists and turns.

However, it is notable when the thick plottens.

deuxhero
2011-12-14, 05:55 PM
Seeing Tarquin as a dad makes me love how his character is written even more.

My bets (just to cover all bases) are.

A Draketooth and "no one", she died accidentally/natural causes

Forikroder
2011-12-14, 05:57 PM
well theres a white sheep in every family i suppose...


and for all we know not even Xykon knows how to control the gates yet, Nale just assumes he does when he first went after the gates he told Sabine he has no idea how to control them but if Xykon can figure it out he can since hes so much smarter, hes jsut assuming Xykon knows how

Faramir
2011-12-14, 06:24 PM
Brilliant :)

"That's a meaningless compliment to a shapeshifter." "yes, I know"

"That's not how I raised you!"

My favorite lines as well.

And my money's on the imp for having killed Penelope.

Arrowstorm122
2011-12-14, 06:31 PM
I wonder how Tarquin is going to take the Gate in the last minute from the Order of the Stick.


Orrin Draketooth or someone connected with him had killed her, which I still think is the most likely scenario. However, notice that Malack spoke up as soon as the topic came up? That makes him a possible suspect in my mind. I have no idea what his motive might have been, though.

It might be true, but he could also just get impatient, since they stopped talking about the Gate, and instead argued. Plus a way to remind the readers that Malack still wants to kill him.

Almaseti
2011-12-14, 06:40 PM
I'm going to put "Girard/Orrin" down as my guess as to who killed Penelope. Possibly because they detected the scrying somehow and wanted it to stop?

Also note: Nale did actually say "dun dun DUHN" back there, didn't he?

zimmerwald1915
2011-12-14, 06:41 PM
Has no one mentioned Ivy as a potential candidate for Penelope's assassin? I don't believe it myself, but most of the other bases have been covered.

ss49
2011-12-14, 06:46 PM
I really want to know what class Tarquin is, I keep wanting it to be Bard, but Bards are Non-Lawful... Maybe there is a Lawful Variant for Bard... I just find it difficult that he be anything else... Maybe an Ex-Bard... I really want to know Tarquin's backstory too....

Maybe Tarquin is Lawful Neutral, with some evil acts and tendencies balancing his good side. :smallbiggrin:
If I had seen any evidence of a level of Druid, there would be a better case for Tarquin being a 1st Ed bard, similar to Ian's Thief class. As it is, all I can plausibly infer is that he is a Fighter with high ability scores (Str, Int, Wis, Cha). At least. I suspect some Prestige or even Epic in him, but there is nothing to show that.

KoboldRevenge
2011-12-14, 06:47 PM
*Sigh* some kids just don't stick to tradition.:smalltongue:

Incom
2011-12-14, 07:01 PM
You know, it would be really funny if it turned out that the OOTS was watching this discussion.

:elan: See Roy? I told you there would be big plot exposition right after we left. :smallbiggrin:

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if V just kind of randomly showed up invisible the way Nale just did (returned to this plane by a gag of some sort) so that Tarquin can do this plot exposition for OOTS as well (without Nale knowing that they know it).

DemonicAngel
2011-12-14, 07:04 PM
I wonder.. did Malak get an order from his god to kill Nale (and penelope) before they talk about the gates?
I mean, the snarl is a god killer, it would make sense if Nurgle and the rest of the pantheon aren't too happy to have more sides who try to control one of the only things which would actually threathen them. especially when that side is a power hungry, genre savvy villian like Tarquin.

mandos9
2011-12-14, 07:08 PM
Well, this chapter is just teasing us to make wild theories on the plot.
It probably explains why the devil/demon/daemon group use nale and sabine: to reach tarquin and use him in turn. They are the only npcs who might know the ritual and are connected to Nale. Its going to be interesting to see if tarquin will be able to do use them instead(unlikely, cause they are devils and all.Still fun to watch).
Also, Penelope could have been murdered by Draketooth's men, which means draketooths are at least ruthless people, if not hostile. Poor OOTS.
On another note, tarquin not learning of a lich sorcerer and his goblin horde conquering the city of paladins doesnt seem possible at this point. he didnt know that xykon is after the gates but he can put two and two together now that nale has told him about them.

JSSheridan
2011-12-14, 07:12 PM
Thanks Giant!

Solauren
2011-12-14, 07:16 PM
Or, you know....

Penelope is working for the Draketooths, as a spy in the Empire of Blood.
The entire looking for her ex-husband and daughter could have simply been a cover, to see if anyone around could locate them.

i.e they needed stronger magical defenses against scrying.

When she finally found a way to locate the Draketooths, she reported to them about a possible security breach, and returned to base.

I mean, where did she get the Ring of True Seeing she gave Tarquin?

I'm guessing she gave him one as a way to offset possible suspicion about her. Looks at her with the Ring, and she's a normal human.

In the meantime, she doesn't use diguise magic, and mostly does things the old fashioned way.

Like say, a high level Rogue. The perfect spy.

King Bosco III
2011-12-14, 07:19 PM
Why does everyone think Sabine killed everyone who died offscreen? "Sabine killed Malack's kids, Sabine killed Penelope!" Just because she is evil and a shapeshifter and is worried around THE ENEMY doesn't mean she killed their loved ones! :smallannoyed:

PS, when will V be back?

Coidzor
2011-12-14, 07:27 PM
I'd thought Nale was too incompetent to pull that one off...

Gusion
2011-12-14, 07:29 PM
You know.

I think Giant is going out of his way with this strip to try and make us... not love Tarquin as much.

Esprit15
2011-12-14, 07:33 PM
You know.

I think Giant is going out of his way with this strip to try and make us... not love Tarquin as much.

Well I for one still love him as a villain. Also, one can hardly hate him any more now than when he had twenty-some-odd slaves taken out to a mountain and burned in order to make a sign for Elan.

Also, updates on one's birthday are always awesome! :smallbiggrin:

Procyonpi
2011-12-14, 07:44 PM
Xykon needs a high level divine spellcaster to complete the ritual and Redcloak is becoming less reliable. Tarquin has a high level divine spellcaster on his team. Hmmm....
Of course, what Tarquin and Xykon don't know
is that the ritual only grants a god the ability to plain-shift the rift, and gives NO power to any mortal

Aquillion
2011-12-14, 07:48 PM
"That's a meaningless complement to a shapechanger."

Isn't it actually more meaningful to a shapechanger? Most people's physical bodies are (at least, heavily) the result of random genetics and birth. A shapechanger's body is their own design -- a work of art. Complementing her on it is like complementing her clothes; it's something she has complete control over, so saying she's chosen a beautiful form actually complements her more than it would otherwise.

Doesn't it?

Esprit15
2011-12-14, 07:55 PM
"That's a meaningless complement to a shapechanger."

Isn't it actually more meaningful to a shapechanger? Most people's physical bodies are (at least, heavily) the result of random genetics and birth. A shapechanger's body is their own design -- a work of art. Complementing her on it is like complementing her clothes; it's something she has complete control over, so saying she's chosen a beautiful form actually complements her more than it would otherwise.

Doesn't it?

I was thinking the same thing. Any word of god on this?

blueblade
2011-12-14, 08:07 PM
That's so cool. Tarquin has a special father-son relationship with his co-antagonist son, just as he does with the protaganist son!

A trope for every occasion!

Raistlin82
2011-12-14, 08:27 PM
Dunh dunh DUNH!
You're welcome, T.

Heh, it was so obvious that Tarquin had no desire to see his son killed, despite Malack.

And did Nale just suggest they all go cooperate with Xykon??? :smalleek:
Or could he be talking about somebody else?

On Penelope's death, I can only say: "When will they find a cure?" :smallsigh:

PS: I love the pace, recently. Keep 'em coming, Giant. :smallwink:

t209
2011-12-14, 09:03 PM
How many of you notice that Nale is wearing a t shirt?

t209
2011-12-14, 09:04 PM
Why does everyone think Sabine killed everyone who died offscreen? "Sabine killed Malack's kids, Sabine killed Penelope!" Just because she is evil and a shapeshifter and is worried around THE ENEMY doesn't mean she killed their loved ones! :smallannoyed:

PS, when will V be back?

I think (Spoilered to not ruin the arc finale)
Came back and disintegrated Tarquin when he gloat the defeat of Order of the stick.

Onyavar
2011-12-14, 09:10 PM
How many of you notice that Nale is wearing a t shirt?

He's not. He's wearing a muscle shirt, which is a big difference. Since he appeared in EoB.

t209
2011-12-14, 09:17 PM
He's not. He's wearing a muscle shirt, which is a big difference. Since he appeared in EoB.

Thank you for correcting my mistake. I can't find a word that is similar to muscle suit.

Dr.Epic
2011-12-14, 09:19 PM
Why would Xykon trust Nale? He was hired by him once and admitted he didn't care about Xykon while Xykon watched him through a crystal ball.

Blaznak
2011-12-14, 09:25 PM
Clever title. Nice. :)

homeslice
2011-12-14, 09:32 PM
You know.

I think Giant is going out of his way with this strip to try and make us... not love Tarquin as much.

I'll admit that I don't wish to see T make a deal with Nale. However, I don't really see why this stip in particular is supposed to make us not like him.

I do wonder how this is going to affect Malack and what may happen down the road.

Vectner
2011-12-14, 10:02 PM
I'll say it.

Dun Dun Dun Dun . . .

Morgan Wick
2011-12-14, 10:08 PM
I'm thinking maybe she isn't really dead.

Hmm, you think perchance the OOTS will find her there?

ORione
2011-12-14, 10:13 PM
And if Bard's are so great, why are you not one?

Because he's Lawful, and bards can't be Lawful. Standard ones anyway; there may be some variant I don't know about.

Actually, that's the only thing I know of that specifically points to Tarquin not being a bard.




Or if he could help. It would amuse me greatly if Tarquin just fell prey to the lies-of-which-the-parts-are-true word game he's so fond of himself.
:nale: Tell Xykon you're my father, I allied with him once.
:xykon: You're the father of Nale? That idiot who didn't fulfill his contract? Maximized Energy Drain!
:nale: What? I said you wouldn't get the ritual from him without my help. That's true; I realized a while ago that he'll never give the ritual to anyone who isn't his abject slave, and you'd have to be stupider than Elan to risk trying to get him to. I never said you could get the ritual from him with my help.


I like this, but I would insert this:

:xykon: Nale? Who's Nale?
:redcloak: We hired him for something he didn't do.



Not really, no.

Here is the strip in question: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html
If Redcloak isn't implying that his side is distinct from Xykon's side, what is his point?


"The plot is going to thicken" is not exactly a deep and startling revelation after 821 strips of twists and turns.

I predict that Belkar is going to annoy Roy at some point. Now when it comes true, I can say "look what I predicted!" as well! :smallcool:

Hmm. I predict that Eugene will be cranky and MitD will be child-like.


Love this strip. I like that the apparent throwaway of a death due to "mysterious circumstances," has now come back to be a plot point. At least, something worth discussing. It might still end up meaningless, a sort of red herring, but it's fun when these things come back.

I agree. It's excellent storytelling.


Why does everyone think Sabine killed everyone who died offscreen? "Sabine killed Malack's kids, Sabine killed Penelope!" Just because she is evil and a shapeshifter and is worried around THE ENEMY doesn't mean she killed their loved ones! :smallannoyed:


Wait, were people suggesting that Sabine killed Penelope? I think I missed them among the sea of people suggesting that Malack or the Draketeeth killed her.


"That's a meaningless complement to a shapechanger."

Isn't it actually more meaningful to a shapechanger? Most people's physical bodies are (at least, heavily) the result of random genetics and birth. A shapechanger's body is their own design -- a work of art. Complementing her on it is like complementing her clothes; it's something she has complete control over, so saying she's chosen a beautiful form actually complements her more than it would otherwise.

Doesn't it?

That's a good point.

H Birchgrove
2011-12-14, 10:13 PM
Loved Tarquin's eleboration on bards being "underpowered". :smallcool:

homeslice
2011-12-14, 10:25 PM
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand why we're all making such a big deal of penelope's death.

ORione
2011-12-14, 10:31 PM
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand why we're all making such a big deal of penelope's death.

It's a mystery. This strip suggests that neither Nale nor Tarquin did it, and they were the main suspects. If it weren't important, Tarquin and Nale likely wouldn't be arguing about it in this strip.

Dr.Epic
2011-12-14, 10:32 PM
Clever title. Nice. :)

The Nostalgia Critic does something like that plenty of times.

Renegade Paladin
2011-12-14, 11:09 PM
Tarquin's analysis has a fatal flaw: He isn't the Order's prime antagonist. Which, given his knowledge of the "scenery-chewing villain," he should know. :smalltongue:

Forikroder
2011-12-14, 11:34 PM
Or, you know....

Penelope is working for the Draketooths, as a spy in the Empire of Blood.
The entire looking for her ex-husband and daughter could have simply been a cover, to see if anyone around could locate them.

i.e they needed stronger magical defenses against scrying.

When she finally found a way to locate the Draketooths, she reported to them about a possible security breach, and returned to base.

I mean, where did she get the Ring of True Seeing she gave Tarquin?

I'm guessing she gave him one as a way to offset possible suspicion about her. Looks at her with the Ring, and she's a normal human.

In the meantime, she doesn't use diguise magic, and mostly does things the old fashioned way.

Like say, a high level Rogue. The perfect spy.

im pretty sure she got the ring on account of being married to the guy who rules the country, pretty sure one of the perks is getting whatever you want

man though Tarquin and Nale are such a dangerous team

tarquin with his smarts, combat ability, quick wittidness, intelligence, assets

and Nale with his knowledge of what Xykon looks like

there the perfect team

Shoelessgdowar
2011-12-14, 11:56 PM
im pretty sure she got the ring on account of being married to the guy who rules the country, pretty sure one of the perks is getting whatever you want

man though Tarquin and Nale are such a dangerous team

tarquin with his smarts, combat ability, quick wittidness, intelligence, assets

and Nale with his knowledge of what Xykon looks like

there the perfect team

No, not HE gave her the ring... the ring he is wearing, the one that allowed him to see and nail Nale, is a ring SHE gave him. The suspicion is where would some ordinary lesser beauty get such a powerful ring to give to Tarquin.

Now, while the idea that she was scoping the possible defense breaches is nice, I find it doubtful as the defenses would be less likely to be breached if you didn't go around spouting the name and being a focusing point for scrying. Z and Sabine needed her to scry because of her connection to Draketooth... no connection means weaker scrying, so it makes little to no sense to give a connection and spread Draketooth's name so people know it to scry for it.

I sort of like the Kilkil as the murder theory... he can fly, is small, and is in theory a disciple of Tiamet, plus his name is a homophone for KILL KILL!!! so he is the perfectly placed choice for us to have overlooked. Malack is as much a red herring as Nale and Tarquin were... we're supposed to jump to the conclusion it is Malack.

I also agree that Malack may have been playing bad cop, only motivated by his desire to eventually kill Nale anyway. But I can see that Malack really would rather draw the death out, torture Nale, make him scream, and then kill him... then bring him back against Nale's will, then kill him again, and keep doing this for a few decades.



Very interesting. It looks to me like Tarquin, in the fourth panel, has already figured out who may have killed Penelope. It also seems to me like Malack's desire to kill Nale is being held back just a little bit too easily, despite his relationship to Tarquin.

Oh, but Nale, you just said "dunh dunh DUNH!" for him.

I also like the interaction between Tarquin and Sabine. I never realized that Tarquin had met Sabine before...

When Tarquin met Sabine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html)

I just love how Thog is completely happy looking in the, at the time, future Empress of Blood's mouth.

I also just realized Tarquin is way stronger then Nale... they wield the same style of sword, yet Tarquin can one hand it while Nale has to two-hand it. If I didn't know that Tarquin was married when he had Nale, I'd say that the sword type would be obviously a reference to what type of people they both are.

Rules Lawyer #1
2011-12-15, 12:03 AM
The last few comics have been filled with awesome!

I don't have a single favorite panel for #821 because so many panels in this comic are awesome!
Panel 2 showing Penelope, Sabine, Zz' drtri and Nale in evil plot flashback is awesome.
Panel 5 still showing Malack' still holding the charge on a spell.
Panel 11 is total awesome line delivery, great use of darkening, and an example of why we like to see comics with Tarquin in them.
Panel 12 not only a punchline but so awesome it can stand by itself as an iconic capture of the conflict between Tarquin and Nale as father and son.

It was interesting to see Tarquin's puzzlement about Penelope's death. It appears that Nale may not have been involved in Penelope's death. My money's on Penelope being alive and well somewhere in the Windy Canyon…

@ everyone predicting Tarquin's fall: it will be interesting to see Tarquin's fall because Tarquin himself has already used his genre savviness to usurp the prediction of his own fall! This raises the question of whether he will meet the fall on his own terms or on someone else's… and it doesn't matter if Tarquin is the primary antagonist or not because all antagonists whether they are the primary antagonist or not are subject to eventual defeat by the protagonist(s). It doesn't even matter if Roy is the leader of the party or not because the antagonism has been set up between Tarquin and Elan, not Tarquin and Roy. On the other hand, the antagonism with Xykon is primarily between Xykon and Roy. Recall how this entire "diversion" from the main plot has centered on Elan and Tarquin while Roy played a supporting character role in the gladiator arena even though Roy is the official party leader.
I don't expect people buried in tropes to get this, but people who have played a good amount of D&D often understand that each player in the group has his time in the limelight when its his actions that are the most important in determining the direction of plot. And this rotation of the spotlight creates memorable moments for the individuals who play in the game. There has been a huge amount of development in story to bring the backgrounds of Hayley and Elan to fruition because its not just about one principle character (Roy) defeating the principle antagonist (Xykon). D&D inspired stories can be much more complex than standard tropes and storytelling which tend to focus on one principle protagonist.
Heh, my point of view anyways.

Forikroder
2011-12-15, 12:19 AM
No, not HE gave her the ring... the ring he is wearing, the one that allowed him to see and nail Nale, is a ring SHE gave him. The suspicion is where would some ordinary lesser beauty get such a powerful ring to give to Tarquin.

yes i was fully aware SHE gave the ring to HIM, hence why i said SHE was MARRIED tot eh dude who ran the country, one of the perks being whatever SHE wants (for instance a ring to give to Tarquin)

she could walk into any magic shop or order from any supplier she wanted to and use the EoBs treasury as her personal checking account


Now, while the idea that she was scoping the possible defense breaches is nice, I find it doubtful as the defenses would be less likely to be breached if you didn't go around spouting the name and being a focusing point for scrying. Z and Sabine needed her to scry because of her connection to Draketooth... no connection means weaker scrying, so it makes little to no sense to give a connection and spread Draketooth's name so people know it to scry for it.

exactly her story weakens the defenses, and the defenses are obviously amazing since it took months of failed scryings and needing her personal testimony in order to cross off palces it wasnt


I also agree that Malack may have been playing bad cop, only motivated by his desire to eventually kill Nale anyway. But I can see that Malack really would rather draw the death out, torture Nale, make him scream, and then kill him... then bring him back against Nale's will, then kill him again, and keep doing this for a few decades.
its not possible to raise someone against there wishes, closest is speak with dead but the subject has no idea it ever happens

i think Malack at this point jsut wants to see justice met and is more interested in getting it done then how it gets done

BobVosh
2011-12-15, 12:22 AM
The last few comics have been filled with awesome!

Well, that is a side effect of being Tarquin heavy. :D

I just hope that when Tarquin invokes this trope for getting to the artifact without any issue, he stays sufficiently genre savvy to NOT do any elaborate death traps for OoTS. I frankly believe in Tarquin, but I fear his decline is coming soon.

Forikroder
2011-12-15, 12:24 AM
Well, that is a side effect of being Tarquin heavy. :D

I just hope that when Tarquin invokes this trope for getting to the artifact without any issue, he stays sufficiently genre savvy to NOT do any elaborate death traps for OoTS. I frankly believe in Tarquin, but I fear his decline is coming soon.

he doesnt want to kill the OoTS he wants them to succeed in there mission of stopping whoever it is trying to take over the world

tcrudisi
2011-12-15, 12:52 AM
Ok so you really didnt read Start of Darkness. Redcloak needed an epic arcane caster for the ritual. Thats it. Its specialties are utterly irrevelant and Xykon wasnt even a lich back then.

Spoiler tags where needed, please. I haven't read SoD and I'm sure that many of us here on the forums haven't either.

bronnt
2011-12-15, 01:44 AM
Panel 2 showing Penelope, Sabine, Zz' drtri and Nale in evil plot flashback is awesome.

I didn't even realize Nale was in that panel until this comment.

ibgdude
2011-12-15, 02:41 AM
I wanted to put together a list of characters who might have killed Penelope. Additions are welcome.

Tarquin
Nale
She's alive
A Draketooth
Malack
Haley's family, e.g. Aunt Ivy
Other Members of Linear Guild
Previously unknown character

Any other ideas?

The MunchKING
2011-12-15, 02:42 AM
Very bad about? Xykon, the epic lich sorcerer, very bad at knowledge and subtle manipulation? Mind you, I'll have to agree with the subtle part

I had no idea you put so many skill ranks in Reverse Psychology (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html)

Killer Angel
2011-12-15, 03:04 AM
I had no idea you put so many skill ranks in Reverse Psychology (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html)

A low sense motive didn't help neither... :smalltongue:

The MunchKING
2011-12-15, 03:06 AM
I'm just saying he can be clever and subtle when he needs to (or thinks it's amusing to) be.

warmachine
2011-12-15, 05:07 AM
Nale is lucky that Malak hasn't decided he's lying and attacked.

Shoelessgdowar
2011-12-15, 05:14 AM
I wanted to put together a list of characters who might have killed Penelope. Additions are welcome.

Tarquin
Nale
She's alive
A Draketooth
Malack
Haley's family, e.g. Aunt Ivy
Other Members of Linear Guild
Previously unknown character

Any other ideas?

Other possibilities
Kilkil
Empress of Blood
Thieves Guild
O-Chul by accident with his awesomness
Xykon
MitS by accident
The roaches
Another Member of Tarquin's Group
One of the other Identified Leaders of another Nation
The Elves
The Oracle
Redcloak's deity

Yes, some of these are partly absurd, I really doubt the roaches, O-Chul, or MitS is the culprit, but they were thrown in for thoroughness and humor :biggrin:

Valyrian
2011-12-15, 05:18 AM
he doesnt want to kill the OoTS he wants them to succeed in there mission of stopping whoever it is trying to take over the world
Except if it's himself.

Burner28
2011-12-15, 05:34 AM
Nice!:smallsmile:

Messenger
2011-12-15, 05:54 AM
Tarquin is right. And more often than not, the antagonists end up somehow dodging all the obstacles that the protagonists had to deal with. It's as though death traps give villains a pass.Neither really a mystery nor done by railroading the plot, sir. The good guys either trigger or mark the traps on the way. The bad guys simply have to follow behind them discretely, taking advantage of the good guys having done the heavy lifting. Overtaking the good guys isn't hard either; they just bide their time and watch out for an opportunity to get ahead. This can be done when something bad happens to the good guys who have to do their best to rescue one of their own or an innocent.

Toper
2011-12-15, 07:37 AM
So awesome!

Juggling Goth
2011-12-15, 07:45 AM
Why does everyone think Sabine killed everyone who died offscreen? "Sabine killed Malack's kids, Sabine killed Penelope!" Just because she is evil and a shapeshifter and is worried around THE ENEMY doesn't mean she killed their loved ones! :smallannoyed:


I don't think it's a viable theory because she's evil and a shapechanger and worried about the enemy. I think it's a viable theory because she reports to a committee of evil beings who have their own plans and are using her and her group as their pawns to meddle with stuff.

zimmerwald1915
2011-12-15, 09:05 AM
I don't think it's a viable theory because she's evil and a shapechanger and worried about the enemy. I think it's a viable theory because she reports to a committee of evil beings who have their own plans and are using her and her group as their pawns to meddle with stuff.
Random question, but has Sabine ever been shown killing anyone? She's talked about killing a lot, enough so that I doubt there's a corps of "Sabine's secretly CN" people on the boards, and enough so I 100% do not want to start one. But think about it. She may have, along with Haley, killed a number of air creatures. She may have, along with Nale and Thog and whoever the Linear Guild bozos-of-the-week were at that point, killed a number of citizens in Cliffport. She may have, along with Nale, killed a number of Azurite guards during the course of their escape. She certainly did a number on Elan, but did not manage to kill him thanks to Durkon's intervention. And she may have killed Penelope. But we never see her do any of that.

Again, not arguing that Sabine's not a bloodthirsty piece of work, because she is. But she does seem to be quite bad at it. Even the IFCC seems to think so. Packing her off to babysit a second-stringer like Nale seems like the kind of job Shojo would give Miko back in the day, not a job they would give to someone in whose skills at assassination they were confident. They even call her a total moron to the face of someone they expect to work with her.

Gift Jeraff
2011-12-15, 09:32 AM
She killed that guard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html) to free Nale and Thog. Sure, maybe he survived, but I doubt it.

sihnfahl
2011-12-15, 10:20 AM
Tarquin's analysis has a fatal flaw: He isn't the Order's prime antagonist. Which, given his knowledge of the "scenery-chewing villain," he should know. :smalltongue:
Two things, I think.

He may not be an antagonist, but he knows Nale is. He's just trying to guide Nale to ...

Remember Tarquin's little talk-down to Elan in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html)? A brother on brother showdown at a Gate would be an -epic- story.

St Fan
2011-12-15, 10:32 AM
Packing her off to babysit a second-stringer like Nale seems like the kind of job Shojo would give Miko back in the day, not a job they would give to someone in whose skills at assassination they were confident. They even call her a total moron to the face of someone they expect to work with her.

Now, I understand that you mean it as an analogy and not to be taken at first degree, but still... the image of Shojo sending Miko into such a mission cannot help but elicit a big grin, considering Miko's personality...

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/Shojo.png Miko, for your next mission, I want you to pretend being evil and become the girlfriend of a smarmy, mass-murdering bastard by the name of Nale, so as to spy on his nefarious plans.
:miko: Excuse me, what?
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/Shojo.png Ho, sure, you'll probably have to knock boots with him in order to keep the mascarade working, but don't worry, your celibate vows and paladin status are not threatened when it's on an official mission for your lord.
:miko: Hu... just to be sure... what exactly do you mean by "knocking boots"? Is that the same thing as "bump uglies"?

LuPuWei
2011-12-15, 10:44 AM
I'm sure the blind power gained from controlling the Snarl really Is motivation enough for a guy like Tarquin - he could always 'let' some hero kill him if he's in a hurry to die-a-legend.

But even if its argued that Tarquin has nothing to gain by controlling the Snarl, this doesn't mean he has nothing to gain by at least controlling the Gate.

For one it would be a great bargaining chip when facing Xykon. For another, just destroying it would be in his interests as it would ensure that a powerful, ruthless villain like Xykon has no more reason to even come to the West continent and upset Tarquin's careful balance of power.

And those are just two of endless possibilities...

zimmerwald1915
2011-12-15, 10:55 AM
She killed that guard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html) to free Nale and Thog. Sure, maybe he survived, but I doubt it.

Forgot about that one, thanks.

AutomatedTeller
2011-12-15, 12:19 PM
I don't know why Penelope would be alive. Everyone says she's dead and they had a state funeral for her, so there was clearly a body.

Of course it's possible that her death was faked, but it seems easier to assume she's dead.

Kish
2011-12-15, 12:27 PM
I don't know why Penelope would be alive. Everyone says she's dead and they had a state funeral for her, so there was clearly a body.

Of course it's possible that her death was faked, but it seems easier to assume she's dead.
Assuming is always easier but rarely wise. :smalltongue:

oddtail
2011-12-15, 12:47 PM
Other possibilities
Kilkil
Empress of Blood
Thieves Guild
O-Chul by accident with his awesomness
Xykon
MitS by accident
The roaches
Another Member of Tarquin's Group
One of the other Identified Leaders of another Nation
The Elves
The Oracle
Redcloak's deity

Yes, some of these are partly absurd, I really doubt the roaches, O-Chul, or MitS is the culprit, but they were thrown in for thoroughness and humor :biggrin:

Ooh, ooh, let me try!

The Guy with the Halberd. That would be a SHOCKING twist ;)

Alexander1996
2011-12-15, 01:28 PM
Once again Indi@n@ Jones, what was briefly yours is now mine.

Forikroder
2011-12-15, 04:26 PM
Except if it's himself.

i doubt hes going to try to take over the world

realistically what is the point in taking over the entire world? what needs could one person possibly have that controlling one or two countrys wouldnt be enough to fulfill?

taking voer the world is purely for bragging rights

Querzis
2011-12-15, 04:35 PM
i doubt hes going to try to take over the world

realistically what is the point in taking over the entire world? what needs could one person possibly have that controlling one or two countrys wouldnt be enough to fulfill?

taking voer the world is purely for bragging rights

Well yeah exactly. If you think Tarquin really woudnt do something purely for bragging rights, you obviously have a very different opinion of him then me.

Forikroder
2011-12-15, 04:38 PM
Well yeah exactly. If you think Tarquin really woudnt do something purely for bragging rights, you obviously have a very different opinion of him then me.

really?
so Tarquin plans to conquer the entire continent for bragging rights?

he jsut wants his third of the desert, thats enough for him to live like a god the main point of the scheme is to not attract attention

luagha
2011-12-15, 05:12 PM
Brilliant :)

"That's a meaningless compliment to a shapeshifter." "yes, I know"

"That's not how I raised you!"


I disagree. Telling a shapeshifter they look good is the highest compliment. After all, they chose every last detail about their physical form, building it like a work of art. Telling them they look good is complimenting them on their most basic skill.

The rest of us schlubs just have to deal with what we're born with.

Zorgophlats
2011-12-15, 07:15 PM
I disagree. Telling a shapeshifter they look good is the highest compliment. After all, they chose every last detail about their physical form, building it like a work of art. Telling them they look good is complimenting them on their most basic skill.

The rest of us schlubs just have to deal with what we're born with.

Just curious about this part. What does "True Seeing" do when you look at a shapeshifter? Does the person see the physical form chosen, or the original form (if any). Also, she doesn't know about the ring yet (if that applies).

brionl
2011-12-15, 07:20 PM
Just curious about this part. What does "True Seeing" do when you look at a shapeshifter? Does the person see the physical form chosen, or the original form (if any). Also, she doesn't know about the ring yet (if that applies).

According to the SRD:


You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.

King Bosco III
2011-12-15, 08:29 PM
Or, you know....

Penelope is working for the Draketooths, as a spy in the Empire of Blood.
The entire looking for her ex-husband and daughter could have simply been a cover, to see if anyone around could locate them.

i.e they needed stronger magical defenses against scrying.

When she finally found a way to locate the Draketooths, she reported to them about a possible security breach, and returned to base.

I mean, where did she get the Ring of True Seeing she gave Tarquin?

I'm guessing she gave him one as a way to offset possible suspicion about her. Looks at her with the Ring, and she's a normal human.

In the meantime, she doesn't use diguise magic, and mostly does things the old fashioned way.

Like say, a high level Rogue. The perfect spy.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0727.html) kind of suggests that Penelope was buried and therefore is dead, don't you think? I find it hard to believe the had a funeral without a body, that's a wake, isn't it?

smasher0404
2011-12-15, 09:06 PM
This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0727.html) kind of suggests that Penelope was buried and therefore is dead, don't you think? I find it hard to believe the had a funeral without a body, that's a wake, isn't it?

Illusions would easily solve the lack of a body, i really doubt that even Tarquin would see that seeing someone kill his wife would assume that it was an illusion, grief might come into play as well, the sadness of losing a loved one would cause Tarquin to not think this through with his usual genre-savyness

bronnt
2011-12-15, 09:08 PM
This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0727.html) kind of suggests that Penelope was buried and therefore is dead, don't you think? I find it hard to believe the had a funeral without a body, that's a wake, isn't it?

Well, a really good illusionist might be able to make it appear as though there was a body. And Girard Draketooth was presumably an epic level illusionist.

Not arguing for it, just throwing it out there. Pretty sure she's dead.

Forikroder
2011-12-15, 09:32 PM
Tarquin has a ring of trueseeing Girard would ahve to go there personally to make an illusion strong enough to beat that and would ahve to remain there in order to move the illusion as needed

and there would be people handling the body, and depending on the "mysterious circumstances" there might have been an autopsy

faking a death through illusions in this sort of situation would be impossible hed need an epic level invisibility spell in order to be in the right room so he can keep up visual contact of his illusion and an epic level illusion to pretend to be the corpse

way too much effort and risk to fake a body

Zorgophlats
2011-12-15, 09:40 PM
According to the SRD:
You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.

MitD would definitely like to meet Tarquin right now, if he only knew about the ring. And how would T react if he met MitD under this condition?



Tarquin has a ring of trueseeing Girard would ahve to go there personally to make an illusion strong enough to beat that and would ahve to remain there in order to move the illusion as needed

and there would be people handling the body, and depending on the "mysterious circumstances" there might have been an autopsy

faking a death through illusions in this sort of situation would be impossible hed need an epic level invisibility spell in order to be in the right room so he can keep up visual contact of his illusion and an epic level illusion to pretend to be the corpse

way too much effort and risk to fake a body
This is assuming he was wearing the ring at that time. We don't know how many rings he has, or how often he switchs them out. Even knowing he saw through Z, we still don't know he uses that ring full time.

smasher0404
2011-12-15, 09:45 PM
Tarquin has a ring of trueseeing Girard would ahve to go there personally to make an illusion strong enough to beat that and would ahve to remain there in order to move the illusion as needed

and there would be people handling the body, and depending on the "mysterious circumstances" there might have been an autopsy

faking a death through illusions in this sort of situation would be impossible hed need an epic level invisibility spell in order to be in the right room so he can keep up visual contact of his illusion and an epic level illusion to pretend to be the corpse

way too much effort and risk to fake a body
both Orrin and Girard, if he is still alive, could have put ranks into disguise, which would not be seen through by True Seeing, and having an epic illusion to bypass true seeing would be helpful for someone as paranoid as Girard was. So using the disguise skill Girard, or Orrin, would sneak into the funeral and then use his prepared spell to create the fake body. However to point out a hole in my own argument we have to assume that Girard had a reason to fake the body, and is somehow still alive, or that Orrin is in the epic levels, which we cannot assume.

jere7my
2011-12-15, 09:56 PM
Tarquin has a ring of trueseeing

Ah, yes, but who gave him that ring of true seeing?

Kish
2011-12-15, 10:10 PM
If, and I'm not saying this is what happened, but if an epic-level and utterly ruthless spellcaster had wanted to fake Penelope's death to someone he knew to have access to True Seeing, "make a clone of her and kill the clone" would seem the obvious way.

Tobimaro
2011-12-15, 11:55 PM
Ah, yes. Nale, the master of the stall tactic. (Not that it's a bad thing as long as he stays alive.) And I too chuckled over his deciding not to do what Elan would have in the last panel.

Panartias
2011-12-16, 03:14 AM
From 821 Raiders of the Lost Plot Arc:

Nale: Sure. You're the one who told me bards are underpowerd.

Tarquin: They are! With their mastery of narrative struckture, they should rule the entire cosmos by now, insted of wasting time singing in taverns.

This is awesome! I wonder, if the Giant is a Pratchett fan...:smallbiggrin:

Icedaemon
2011-12-16, 04:45 AM
I wonder.. did Malak get an order from his god to kill Nale (and penelope) before they talk about the gates?
I mean, the snarl is a god killer, it would make sense if Nurgle and the rest of the pantheon aren't too happy to have more sides who try to control one of the only things which would actually threathen them. especially when that side is a power hungry, genre savvy villian like Tarquin.

Malack is wise enough to know that it is safer, easier and smarter to actually tell Tarquin that the doomsday mcguffin has no 'just kill some filthy elves, no biggie' setting, just 'off' and 'time for a new world'.

If Nergal would alert Malack of the dangers and parties already connected to this conflict, Tarquin would likely switch to his less prickish son's side again. I am sure the god of the dead would notice the masses of undead being raised in Gobbotopia.

Killer Angel
2011-12-16, 04:57 AM
I'm just saying he can be clever and subtle when he needs to (or thinks it's amusing to) be.

I knew (hence the small tongue smile)... but certainly the OotS weren't too smart in that circumstance, given that they missed (for comedic reason) the double "wink".


Nale is lucky that Malak hasn't decided he's lying and attacked.

I'm almost sure that Malak is planning the death of Nale in a relative short time, even if this means going against Tarquin. He won't risk to lose its vengeance.
I wonder if he will send a warning to its new friend Durkon...

faustin
2011-12-16, 05:29 AM
This is awesome! I wonder, if the Giant is a Pratchett fan...

Almost all roleplayers or fantasy books readers are Pratchett fans, by default. :smallsmile:

What about a thread comparing Tarquin with Lord Vetanari´s ranks on Magnificient Bastard skills?

KillianHawkeye
2011-12-16, 08:25 AM
Almost all roleplayers or fantasy books readers are Pratchett fans, by default. :smallsmile:

I am a roleplayer and a fantasy book reader, but I have never read Terry Pratchett. I was given one of his books as a gift, but I never got around to reading it.

So there. :smallamused:

Kish
2011-12-16, 08:32 AM
Rich said a while ago that he actively avoids reading Terry Pratchett, out of concern that it might affect his writing.

GnomeFighter
2011-12-16, 08:51 AM
Rich said a while ago that he actively avoids reading Terry Pratchett, out of concern that it might affect his writing.

Hum... Odd... Most authors will read as much as possible because it affects there writting. But not my choice.

Anyway...

Narrative-imperative and narrative causality are not that uncommen as a concept. The idea that stories must happen a set way is something that runs through everything from the greek set way of writting a play through to fairy tails. The idea that good triumphs over evil, the hero gets the girl and evil will be punished, and the clear understanding that this is how storys must run, is somthing shot through western culture.

Back to Pratchet "...if you understand the power of story, and learn to detect abuses of it, you might actually deserve the appellation Homo sapiens."

Myrdhale
2011-12-16, 09:31 AM
I personally think a Man as paranoid as Girrard would have no problem killing his Son's ex-wife if it meant protecting the Gate. Who needs illusions and fake bodies. Just give them a real one instead.

Bulldog Psion
2011-12-16, 09:58 AM
Well, so far as I know, funerals have been conducted on occasion without a body, when there was substantial reason to believe the person was dead, anyway. Finding some scraps of bloody clothing and not being able to contact Penelope via scrying or sending spells might be enough to lead to a conclusion that she was dead, even if she actually wasn't, leading in turn to a state funeral with an empty casket.

Panartias
2011-12-16, 11:22 AM
Back to Pratchet "...if you understand the power of story, and learn to detect abuses of it, you might actually deserve the appellation Homo sapiens."

This!:smallbiggrin:

Sounds like general Tarquins motto, dosen't it!

zimmerwald1915
2011-12-16, 12:08 PM
This!:smallbiggrin:

Sounds like general Tarquins motto, dosen't it!
Not really. The "detecting abuses" bit seems a bit off Tarquin's radar. As does the "deserving the appelation homo sapiens."

martianmister
2011-12-16, 04:17 PM
I knew (hence the small tongue smile)... but certainly the OotS weren't too smart in that circumstance, given that they missed (for comedic reason) the double "wink".

They didn't miss it. It's Reverse Psychology, remember?

Kish
2011-12-16, 04:21 PM
They didn't miss it. It's Reverse Psychology, remember?
Reverse psychology works by making someone think you want them to do the opposite of what you actually want them to do.

Xykon's reverse psychology there consisted of making the Order believe that he wanted to keep them away from the Gate. In other words, making them believe that he meant exactly what he'd said.

How exactly are you claiming saying "Wink, wink," supports that?

Dr.Epic
2011-12-16, 04:32 PM
So is Tarquin now officially one of the 9 sides?

martianmister
2011-12-16, 04:43 PM
Reverse psychology works by making someone think you want them to do the opposite of what you actually want them to do.

Xykon's reverse psychology there consisted of making the Order believe that he wanted to keep them away from the Gate. In other words, making them believe that he meant exactly what he'd said.

How exactly are you claiming saying "Wink, wink," supports that?

He was lying in an obviously fake way (wink, wink), so Order thinks he was telling the truth and misleading them with Reverse Psychology. It was actually Reverse-Reverse Psychology.

ORione
2011-12-16, 05:29 PM
He was lying in an obviously fake way (wink, wink), so Order thinks he was telling the truth and misleading them with Reverse Psychology. It was actually Reverse-Reverse Psychology.

Haley wasn't there yet, and I don't have enough faith in the Sense Motives of any of the others to believe that they were thinking that complexly.

Kish
2011-12-16, 05:47 PM
He was lying in an obviously fake way (wink, wink), so Order thinks he was telling the truth and misleading them with Reverse Psychology. It was actually Reverse-Reverse Psychology.
You would seem to have contradicted yourself in the space of two posts; one post ago you were pointing out that it was reverse psychology.

It was just reverse psychology, as Redcloak commented on. The trick is that Xykon's Charisma bonus is so high that even when he isn't bothering to make his lie believable, the Order still swallows it hook, line, and sinker.

Solauren
2011-12-16, 06:02 PM
If, and I'm not saying this is what happened, but if an epic-level and utterly ruthless spellcaster had wanted to fake Penelope's death to someone he knew to have access to True Seeing, "make a clone of her and kill the clone" would seem the obvious way.


Actually, you don't need to kill the clone.

"A duplicate can be grown while the original still lives, or when the original soul is unavailable, but the resulting body is merely a soulless bit of inert flesh, which rots if not preserved."

In other words, if the original is alive, the clone is dead when growth is complete.

Needle
2011-12-16, 06:28 PM
I'm the only one who thinks Zzdtri/Qarr killed Penelope now? :smalleek:

I mean, when she hinted she knew a lead about Girard, Zzdtri was here, presumably also Qarr, and also the IFCC monitoring the situation and sending the order to Qarr so she does not mess with whatever plan.

Or maybe I'm just too paranoic :smalltongue:

martianmister
2011-12-16, 08:26 PM
You would seem to have contradicted yourself in the space of two posts; one post ago you were pointing out that it was reverse psychology.

Where is the contradiction?

Gusion
2011-12-16, 09:50 PM
I just read the comic again... and realized this would make sense for V to re-appear and overhear some of this...

Forikroder
2011-12-16, 10:24 PM
This is assuming he was wearing the ring at that time. We don't know how many rings he has, or how often he switchs them out. Even knowing he saw through Z, we still don't know he uses that ring full time.
we can pretty safely assume he does, considering hes in the middle of his country surrounded by guards he would only need defense related ones, most like a ring of trueseeing in order to rpevent assasinations and his ring of regeneration in case one of them gets close i cant think of any other rings he would need to wear


both Orrin and Girard, if he is still alive, could have put ranks into disguise, which would not be seen through by True Seeing, and having an epic illusion to bypass true seeing would be helpful for someone as paranoid as Girard was. So using the disguise skill Girard, or Orrin, would sneak into the funeral and then use his prepared spell to create the fake body. However to point out a hole in my own argument we have to assume that Girard had a reason to fake the body, and is somehow still alive, or that Orrin is in the epic levels, which we cannot assume.

while possible that brings up even more problems, he would need a disguise that would gurantee he could be practically glued to the bodys hip and be there at all times, when they discovered the body, where they moved the body too, and examinations on the body, and pre-funeral preperations since he would need to be watching and maintaining the illusion at all times in order to ensure its there when it needs to be

Forikroder
2011-12-16, 10:25 PM
I'm the only one who thinks Zzdtri/Qarr killed Penelope now? :smalleek:

I mean, when she hinted she knew a lead about Girard, Zzdtri was here, presumably also Qarr, and also the IFCC monitoring the situation and sending the order to Qarr so she does not mess with whatever plan.

Or maybe I'm just too paranoic :smalltongue:

i dont see any reason the IFCC would want to kill her though, there after as much conflict as possible and they want people to be struggling kneck and kneck for these gates as much as possible so if anything theyd want more clues to ensure as many parties as possible knew of the gates location

imo, she actually did hire a group of mercs to investigate the gates and they offed her after getting the info

HalfTangible
2011-12-16, 10:31 PM
I just read the comic again... and realized this would make sense for V to re-appear and overhear some of this...

V doesn't know any conjuration spells. So no, it kinda doesn't :smalltongue: (it'd be dramatically appropriate but it wouldn't make much sense... maybe V scried on it?)

brionl
2011-12-17, 01:00 PM
I'm the only one who thinks Zzdtri/Qarr killed Penelope now? :smalleek:

I mean, when she hinted she knew a lead about Girard, Zzdtri was here, presumably also Qarr, and also the IFCC monitoring the situation and sending the order to Qarr so she does not mess with whatever plan.

Or maybe I'm just too paranoic :smalltongue:

Why would Z kill her? The Linear Guild was working with Penelope to try and find Girard.

Gusion
2011-12-17, 03:43 PM
V doesn't know any conjuration spells. So no, it kinda doesn't :smalltongue: (it'd be dramatically appropriate but it wouldn't make much sense... maybe V scried on it?)

While the forum has debated previously the question of whether casting Dismissal on yourself would work or not, I suspect she could... "persuade" (with a fireball in the face) someone from the other plane to send her back via Dismissal regardless.

Enough time has passed that it is a certainly a possibility.

Forikroder
2011-12-17, 05:06 PM
While the forum has debated previously the question of whether casting Dismissal on yourself would work or not, I suspect she could... "persuade" (with a fireball in the face) someone from the other plane to send her back via Dismissal regardless.

Enough time has passed that it is a certainly a possibility.

i doubt any wizard/sorcerer capable of escaping would willingly remain in the semi-elemental plane of ranch dressing

zimmerwald1915
2011-12-17, 11:51 PM
i doubt any wizard/sorcerer capable of escaping would willingly remain in the semi-elemental plane of ranch dressing
Would you ever want to leave an eternal landscape of incarnate deliciousness?

Valyrian
2011-12-18, 06:05 AM
Why would Z kill her? The Linear Guild was working with Penelope to try and find Girard.
Huh? Where did you get that from?

tcrudisi
2011-12-18, 08:36 AM
Would you ever want to leave an eternal landscape of incarnate deliciousness?

Yep. What good is it to have all that Ranch Dressing if you don't have anything to dip into it?

I suspect that the next time we see V will be at the Windy Canyon (or whatever it was called). I'm betting V already made her way there and is waiting on the OotS.

Kish
2011-12-18, 09:16 AM
Huh? Where did you get that from?
The most recent strip?

(Okay, Penelope was looking for Orrin Draketooth, not Girard Draketooth. It is not impossible that Nale, instead of looking for the Gate, was trying to help her find her child out of the goodness of his heart, in the same way that it is not impossible that when we cut back to Xykon we'll find he's been volunteering at a homeless shelter. But neither is the way to bet.)

Morph Bark
2011-12-18, 09:58 AM
I am now thinking that once Tarquin's end has come, Elan will tell him that he will not get his wish, for Bards have one specific power: they are the ones telling the stories and they control how they wish to tell it. Control history and you control the future. Tarquin's name will not go down in history as a great conqueror and paragon of tyranny, his will only be a humble gravestone. Perhaps even nameless.

rbetieh
2011-12-18, 11:39 AM
I am now thinking that once Tarquin's end has come, Elan will tell him that he will not get his wish, for Bards have one specific power: they are the ones telling the stories and they control how they wish to tell it. Control history and you control the future. Tarquin's name will not go down in history as a great conqueror and paragon of tyranny, his will only be a humble gravestone. Perhaps even nameless.

Unless Tarquin has another bard ready to tell his story. Besides, the only way to not tell Tarquins story is to not tell Elans story, and Elan wouldn't keep something like that to himself....

Kish
2011-12-18, 12:09 PM
Elan doesn't have the "massive ego" problem Tarquin (and Nale) do(es).

What he has is a "stupidity" problem. If someone (Roy or Haley, say) explains to him that he can thwart Tarquin's "I get to be a legend" thing by simply supporting, or just not actively opposing, Tarquin's deceptions remaining in place after he's dead, so that the story everyone hears goes, "And that was the fall of the Empress of Blood, who had many lackeys none of whom merit being mentioned by name," then he'll do it.

Forikroder
2011-12-18, 06:30 PM
I am now thinking that once Tarquin's end has come, Elan will tell him that he will not get his wish, for Bards have one specific power: they are the ones telling the stories and they control how they wish to tell it. Control history and you control the future. Tarquin's name will not go down in history as a great conqueror and paragon of tyranny, his will only be a humble gravestone. Perhaps even nameless.

pretty sure taht would be against the bard charter

even assuming that it lies on elan to tell the story (and it wont no force of heros brings a bard with them yet there stories are always told) hes too stupid not to tell the story, becuase its a great story

he may leave out a few chocie line from tarquin but aside from those (specifically how he wanted it all to happen) its still a story of good beats evil

denthor
2011-12-18, 07:01 PM
based upon this comic my money is on Maleck killed her..


"Figure it out on your own tme Tarquin."

Hithros
2011-12-18, 09:32 PM
Neat comic.
Too bad Malack still doesn't get this revenge, and is not likely to...eh.

Gift Jeraff
2011-12-19, 03:36 AM
Elan doesn't have the "massive ego" problem Tarquin (and Nale) do(es).

What he has is a "stupidity" problem. If someone (Roy or Haley, say) explains to him that he can thwart Tarquin's "I get to be a legend" thing by simply supporting, or just not actively opposing, Tarquin's deceptions remaining in place after he's dead, so that the story everyone hears goes, "And that was the fall of the Empress of Blood, who had many lackeys none of whom merit being mentioned by name," then he'll do it.Heck, he may not even need someone to convince him--he's already came to the conclusion that doing what is right trumps what is dramatically appropriate all on his own (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html). And if Tarquin is correct about people following in his footsteps, then not telling the story of Tarquin would be the right thing to do.

Oh and I realized this strip kills my idea that the Order setting off Girard's alarm is what lead to Penelope's death. Nale said she was killed within a day after they narrowed it down to Windy Canyon, and Tarquin says that was a few weeks ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html).

Bulldog Psion
2011-12-19, 05:39 AM
Oh and I realized this strip kills my idea that the Order setting off Girard's alarm is what lead to Penelope's death. Nale said she was killed within a day after they narrowed it down to Windy Canyon, and Tarquin says that was a few weeks ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html).

That's a good point. Now I'm wondering who did kill Penelope. The Draketooth clan is starting to look like the most likely bunch to have done it, to protect their secrets.

SmaugTheYounger
2011-12-19, 03:28 PM
Oh and I realized this strip kills my idea that the Order setting off Girard's alarm is what lead to Penelope's death. Nale said she was killed within a day after they narrowed it down to Windy Canyon, and Tarquin says that was a few weeks ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html).
And the state burial for her was last week (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0727.html) plus the few days since the Order's arrival in EOB. I always assumed they'd bury People faster in a hot desert's climate...

But true, all ickiness besides, Tarquin could have taken his time to let his cleriks thoroughly examine Penelopes body. Which makes his claim of "mysterious circumstances" a honest statement. Who knew!


That's a good point. Now I'm wondering who did kill Penelope. The Draketooth clan is starting to look like the most likely bunch to have done it, to protect their secrets.

When she blabbed about Windy Valley, Tarquin, Zz'dtri, (possible also Quarr as his familiar), lizard liason Gourntonk and Malack where present.

Zz'dtri is loyal to Nale, so no motive to kill Penelope and stop the Linear Guild from learning more.

Quarr is loyal to the three fiends, and they might not want Nale to reach the Gate before Xykon. A possible motive, but does he have the means?

Gourtonk is totally opaque. His role as ambassador gives us no clear motive.

Malack puts the fear in his underlings, but he's loyal to Tarquin, even when he is sometimes annoyed by him (724 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html), 764 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0764.html)). So means, but no motive.

The Draketooth's know about Azure City's fall and someone finding the wrong location. But were they aware of Zz'dtris search?

I'd suspect Quarr first and the Draketooths second.

Forikroder
2011-12-19, 11:12 PM
according to tarquin she wouldnt shut up once you got her a few drinks so we cant say that theres anyone who for sure doesnt know about the windy canyon

its even possible Xykon teleported forward, disguised redclaok (most likely as some human female who likes to wear blue) and had him get her drunk then killed her

...i jsut came up with that off the top of my head but its sounding pretty viable if Xykon didnt already have the correct coordinates from the journal

the draketooths 90% dont know Azure city fell, if they did Girard probably would have known soon was dead and would ahve deactivated his death trap since hed know something was coming for him and trying to get info is more important than blowing it to smithereens, since his trap for Soon or his paladin lackeys we can safely assume Girard has had nothing to do with soon, Azure city, Azures in general, paladins, the colour blue and petting farms

SmaugTheYounger
2011-12-20, 03:30 AM
(...)its even possible Xykon teleported forward, disguised redclaok (most likely as some human female who likes to wear blue) and had him get her drunk then killed her
(...)
the draketooths 90% dont know Azure city fell, if they did Girard probably would have known soon was dead and would ahve deactivated his death trap (...)

Please. Xykon isn't known to have teleport, and he can't scry (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0709.html). And sure, Penelope liked to tell of her missing daughter, but for all we know she only talked once about windy valley, to known witnesses, and was dead next morning. One can't rule out a real random encounter, but that's just silly.

The Draketooths would know about the destruction of Azure City's gate from that monitoring divination mentioned in The Crayons of Time in 277 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), and if able, could have scryed before Xykon set up Cloister. Anyway, they must be aware that someone destroyed three gates - probably Xykon, if they choosed to investigate - and be really nervous, paranoid and anxious right now.

No need to detrigger the trap, anyone looking for it could only be an enemy in their eyes. So they know about the OotS, too, but - my guess - a little less likely about Penelope being aware of Windy Valley.

Gift Jeraff
2011-12-20, 03:34 AM
Xykon is known to have teleport spells, as per SoD and O-Chul's list (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html).

Killer Angel
2011-12-20, 05:51 AM
Please. Xykon isn't known to have teleport, and he can't scry (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0709.html).


Xykon is known to have teleport spells, as per SoD and O-Chul's list (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html).

...and he can effectively scry, even without any spell (crystal ball).

SmaugTheYounger
2011-12-20, 06:42 AM
Xykon is known to have teleport spells, as per SoD and O-Chul's list (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html).

Damn. And I own SoD.
But still, why would he know of Penelope? The LG concluded this to be the right location by argument of exclusion. If they were right and Xykon teleported to Windy Vally to do a little Pre-Invasion investigation by himself, his and their research wouldn't necessarily collide.

And if he knew, wouldn't he force his former employees to work for him again, instead of, say, killing them on the spot for treason?


...and he can effectively scry, even without any spell (crystal ball).

Yes, very poor wording on my part. But the crystal ball is only good for random search, for zeroing in on a person he'd need some sort of body part of that person, at least a hair (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html). It's also rather big, so he may not have it with him, when out of Azure City Gobbotopia.

Killer Angel
2011-12-20, 06:56 AM
But still, why would he know of Penelope?


Yes, I would be very surprised by such a knowledge.


Yes, very poor wording on my part.
:smallwink: