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View Full Version : Some interesting feats to boost HP (3.5 feats, PEACH)



Noctis Vigil
2011-12-18, 02:01 AM
This is a couple of feats I created. They've actually gotten some playtesting, and work pretty well for making some things much less squishy. These started as an updated and slightly modified version of Fey Soul, which is originally a 3.0 feat from the book Bastards & Bloodlines, published by Green Ronin.

Feat: Fey Soul
Prerequisites: Cha 15
Benefit: You may use your Cha instead of Con to determine bonus HP at each level.
Special: This feat must be taken at first level, or with GM permission after first.

Feat: Mind Over Body
Prerequisites: Int 15
Benefits: You may use your Int instead of Con to determine bonus HP at each level.
Special: This feat must be taken at first level, or with GM permission after first.

Feat: Mighty Spirit
Prerequisites: Wis 15
Benefits: You may use your Wis instead of Con to determine bonus HP at each level.
Special: This feat must be taken at first level, or with GM permission after first.

Feat: Mighty Body
Prerequisites: Str 15
Benefits: You may use your Str instead of Con to determine bonus HP at each level.
Special: This feat must be taken at first level, or with GM permission after first.

Feat: Fleet Body
Prerequisites: Dex 15
Benefits: You may use your Dex instead of Con to determine bonus HP at each level.
Special: This feat must be taken at first level, or with GM permission after first.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-18, 02:09 AM
Mighty Spirit makes the druid a truly SAD class, the only one I've ever seen.

That said, these feats are decent. They have a nice Stat requirement. Fleet Body makes elves actually playable, so I guess that's good.

All in all, they're nice feats to have, but it's kind of an iffy situation. Constitution was basically created as an ability score tax. You have made feats that allow players to ignore that tax. Whether that is a good or bad thing is up to you.

Just please, for the love of Asmodeus, add in a note saying that constructs and undead can't take these feats. Seriously, they have enough hit points already. I don't want to see a vampiric minotaur that took Mighty Body roll over me with d12+7 hit points per level.

Noctis Vigil
2011-12-18, 02:24 AM
Wouldn't that rule out Warforged from taking these? If a GM wants to use them on something that has ungodly amounts of HP already, that's his call. It would make boss encounters far more challenging. Feel free to add that clause if you use them, but it's honestly never been an issue in any game I've used these in.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-18, 02:26 AM
Wouldn't that rule out Warforged from taking these? If a GM wants to use them on something that has ungodly amounts of HP already, that's his call. It would make boss encounters far more challenging. Feel free to add that clause if you use them, but it's honestly never been an issue in any game I've used these in.

Well, the difference between "ungodly amounts of HP" and "undead and constructs" is "ungodly amounts of HP" are trading their Constitution score for this other ability score. Meanwhile, constructs and undead don't have a Constitution score, so they directly benefit from this feat, no matter what stat they choose (and they already get improved HP or chunks of HP to compensate for the lack of bonus HP from no Constitution score)

And you could easily say "creatures with the Living Construct subtype may still take these feats".

Zaydos
2011-12-18, 02:34 AM
Or add the prerequisite: Must have a Constitution score.

Although that pops up difficulties with shapechange as it can grant you an undead or construct form where you'd no longer qualify despite not normally recalculating hp, but that's a corner case at best.

Noctis Vigil
2011-12-18, 02:43 AM
Maybe you see it differently than me, but I really don't see this as being an issue. Maybe if it gets applied to every undead and construct a GM uses on you, but I seriously don't see undead using these as game breaking. Yes, I get the fact that they aren't supposed to have bonus HP. If a GM really wants to give them HP, he'll just boost their HP anyways. If a player is a construct or undead and wants to have more HP, they now have an option that lets them do so, and frankly, if they want to burn one of their few feats to get it, that's their call. I will admit, I don't use a lot of undead in my games (though constructs do pop in a fair bit), so I might just not be seeing the problem. Lemme run some numbers on a couple constructs out of the MMs and get back to you on this one.

Ashtagon
2011-12-18, 05:19 AM
Undead have too many hp? Normally, it is the opposite problem that is remarked upon. Without the Constitution bonus that is standard at high levels, undead have ridiculously small numbers of hp once you reach about level 9 or so. So much so that PF allowed intelligent undead to apply their Charisma bonus to hp.

Morph Bark
2011-12-18, 01:28 PM
Undead have too many hp? Normally, it is the opposite problem that is remarked upon. Without the Constitution bonus that is standard at high levels, undead have ridiculously small numbers of hp once you reach about level 9 or so. So much so that PF allowed intelligent undead to apply their Charisma bonus to hp.

Well, between Desecrate, Dread Necromancers and Corpsecrafter feats, undead can easily have twice the hp of arcane casters or rogue-types. That's only if you really try to optimize that aspect though.

But adding "must have a Constitution score" as a prerequisite seems like a good idea.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-18, 01:34 PM
Yeah. I mean, I always roll hit points for monsters (instead of taking the average) and have ended up with some seriously monstrous undead, due to the ridiculous amount of d12s they get compared to their CR.

Ashtagon
2011-12-18, 03:18 PM
Yeah. I mean, I always roll hit points for monsters (instead of taking the average) and have ended up with some seriously monstrous undead, due to the ridiculous amount of d12s they get compared to their CR.

10 HD undead will average 65 hp, or max out at 120 hp.

Level 10 fighter with 16 Constitution will average 85 hp, or max out at 130 hp.

Tell me again how undead have too many hp?

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-18, 03:23 PM
10 HD undead will average 65 hp, or max out at 120 hp.

Level 10 fighter with 16 Constitution will average 85 hp, or max out at 130 hp.

Tell me again how undead have too many hp?

Because a CR 10 undead doesn't have 10 HD. It has 20, if it's a zombie (average of 130 HP, max out at 240) or 8d12+5d8 if it's a mummy cleric (average of 75, max 136). etc.

Ashtagon
2011-12-18, 04:16 PM
Because a CR 10 undead doesn't have 10 HD. It has 20, if it's a zombie (average of 130 HP, max out at 240) or 8d12+5d8 if it's a mummy cleric (average of 75, max 136). etc.

Even so, if a 130 hp (max 240 hp) zombie is causing you problems at level 10, you are going badly wrong somewhere. I mean, we are talking about a slow creature with no meaningful intelligence, no flight, no ranged attack, and no ability to detect invisible. Even a level-appropriate fighter without any magic items can trounce that.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-18, 04:25 PM
Even so, if a 130 hp (max 240 hp) zombie is causing you problems at level 10, you are going badly wrong somewhere. I mean, we are talking about a slow creature with no meaningful intelligence, no flight, no ranged attack, and no ability to detect invisible. Even a level-appropriate fighter without any magic items can trounce that.

I'm not saying they're CR inappropriate. I'm saying they have too much HP. Zombie was a bad example, as a zombie cannot take feats.

Alright, say we're talking about a vampiric medusa. A creature that has DR 10/Silver and Magic, 6d12 hit points, petrification, 5 bonus feats, domination, poison, and undead immunities.

Then slap Fey Soul on her. She goes from having 6d8+6 to 6d12 (average of 33 to average of 42, max of 54 to max of 72) to having 6d8+6 to 6d12+24 (average of 33 to average of 66, max of 54 to max of 96).

Don't you think that's a bit extreme for a CR 9?

Noctis Vigil
2011-12-19, 01:49 AM
I don't really think it is, no. Of course, I only run one or two encounters in an in-game day, so I tend to throw some seriously beefy foes at my players. I'm going to leave them as they are for now, as none of these have ever given me or my players serious trouble; they were designed to be taken by pretty much anything, and that is how I shall leave them.

Ashtagon
2011-12-19, 03:35 AM
I'm not saying they're CR inappropriate. I'm saying they have too much HP. Zombie was a bad example, as a zombie cannot take feats.

Alright, say we're talking about a vampiric medusa. A creature that has DR 10/Silver and Magic, 6d12 hit points, petrification, 5 bonus feats, domination, poison, and undead immunities.

Then slap Fey Soul on her. She goes from having 6d8+6 to 6d12 (average of 33 to average of 42, max of 54 to max of 72) to having 6d8+6 to 6d12+24 (average of 33 to average of 66, max of 54 to max of 96).

Don't you think that's a bit extreme for a CR 9?

Ignoring that I regard vampiric mudusae as a bit cheesy (I tend to play my monsters straight).

A wizard using extremely sub-optimal attacks (hp blasting) will slay this in four rounds, assuming the monster makes every save. One, maybe two rounds, if the saves are failed. At 9th level, a wizard will almost certainly have something that'll take her down in a single round anyway, because wizards are like that.

A fighter likewise will take her down in two hits, which is possible in a single round. Admittedly, he'll need a decent tailored magic item suite for this though.

So no, I still don't think undead have too many hp.

Cieyrin
2011-12-19, 11:34 AM
Constructs get bonus HP as a mechanic of their size, so they aren't exactly crying for a lack of HP, honestly. Most constructs are Int -, meaning no feats except bonus ones, so not really seeing that as a big problem. And there are a couple ways for undead to get bonus hp or fast healing as well, so this isn't exactly breaking the bank. If they want to spend a feat on getting hp, they can feel free.

Yitzi
2011-12-19, 12:13 PM
Old grey elf psion. Mind Over Body. Vigor+Share Pain (psicrystal).

That's right, you just made the psion into the tankiest class there is.

Cieyrin
2011-12-19, 12:26 PM
Old grey elf psion. Mind Over Body. Vigor+Share Pain (psicrystal).

That's right, you just made the psion into the tankiest class there is.

That Grey Elf has been doing that since Faerie Mysteries Initiate was available, this isn't anything new. :smalltongue:

Yitzi
2011-12-19, 02:36 PM
So then Mind over Body isn't really anything new...

SowZ
2011-12-19, 03:06 PM
Mysteries of the Faerie initiate already does what mind over body does and a little more. The only restriction is that they have to get regular booty.

It allows players to focus their stats even more. So you will see more level 8 characters with a base 22 in a stat. This is not good or bad, necessarily.

Cieyrin
2011-12-19, 03:24 PM
So then Mind over Body isn't really anything new...

It's more available, considering Faerie Mysteries Initiate is Dragon material, though fairly well recognized, due to that it was okayed for LG while that was live. There's also 2 other published feats that switch in Int or Cha for Con at 1st level, this boosts off that fairly well.

@SowZ: That's sensual, not sexual. There's a difference. :smallwink:
Also the fact that you need a friend with the feat to use it, though you could just cheese it have your crystal learn it. It's a regional restriction, not a racial one. You're just recording elven memories into it. :smallcool:

Rapidghoul
2011-12-19, 04:10 PM
Certain Undead, mostly in MM3, get something like Fey Soul (called Unholy Toughness) to give them more HP.

Using some ability other than Con for HP is a good mechanic to reduce MAD, but making it a feat accessible at level 1 (indeed, designed so that you have to take it then) is a little too breakable and completely removes Con from the equation for some classes.
It's great for extremely MAD classes to be an class-ability though; I put it in Monk, for example, in case any people really want to play it but fear the suckiness. For something like Wizard or Druid that is already really powerful and doesn't have too many abilities to focus on as is, all it does is focus them even more.

Yitzi
2011-12-19, 04:14 PM
It's more available

So then in cases where the feat is at all relevant, my original point stands.