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eftexar
2011-12-19, 04:44 PM
Necromancer (3.5)

Abilities: Strength or dexterity are probably the necromancers most important scores. First and foremost he is a melee character. On the other hand charisma is important for casting spells and the use of some of his abilities. A good constitution is also never a bad idea. Intelligence increase skill points, which is good, especially if you focus on UMD.

Organization: Evil necromancers tend to work in cults, if they manage to work together at all. Good necromancers will have difficulty finding support as most societies spurn their existence.

Alignment: The necromancer may not be of lawful good alignment. Should he ever become lawful good he does not lose any necromancer class abilities, but he may not progress further in the class until he changes alignment.

Religion: Necromancers usually worship deities of death, but deities of darkness or destruction are just as common. Good necromancers often worship no deity as they find themselves persecuted by the clerics and paladins of deities they might have otherwise worshipped.

Background: They could come from many backgrounds. It is just as common for a necromancer to study the craft under a mentor as it is for him to discover his own innate power.

Races: Humans tend toward necromancy more than any other race. Their short life spans and natural lust for power lend well to it. Elves are the least likely to take on the art, as they are usually repulsed by it.

Other Classes: The necromancer will get along fine with other masters of the dark arts such as shadowcasters or necromancers of the same alignment. Even if he is of good alignment he will probably butt heads with paladins and good aligned clerics.

Role: The necromancer has the ability to both cast spells and participate in melee. Many of his spells are self-buffs or touch spells, so he will have to be in the middle of the fray. Perhaps his most important ability is his ability to create, control, and augment undead to bolster his and his allies offense.

Class Features

Hit Die: d8

Starting Gold: As Fighter

Skills: Appraise (Int), Concentration (Con), Craft (any 3) (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcane) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int),Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Use Magic Device (Int)*.
*changed because charisma for this never made sense to me.

Skill Points: 2 + Int mod (x 4 at first level)

{table=head]Level | Base Attack Bonus | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special | Desecration Points
1st | +0 | +0 | +0 | +2 | Command Undead, Animate Undead, Grey Necromancy | 0
2nd | +1 | +0 | +0 | +3 | Death Watch, Death Knell (1d6/+2) | 0
3rd | +2 | +1 | +1 | +3 | Bolster Undead | 6
4th | +3 | +1 | +1 | +4 | Necrosis (resistance) | 9
5th | +3 | +1 | +1 | +4 | Curse of Revanance, Death Knell (1d6/+3) | 12
6th | +4 | +2 | +2 | +5 | Bonus Feat | 16
7th | +5 | +2 | +2 | +5 | Zone of Desecration | 20
8th | +6/+1 | +2 | +2 | +6 | Death Knell (2d6/+4) | 24
9th | +6/+1 | +3 | +3 | +6 | Necrosis (immunity) | 28
10th | +7/+2 | +3 | +3 | +7 | Command Undead (Move), Zone of Desecration | 32
11th | +8/+3 | +3 | +3 | +7 | Tomb Tainted Soul, Death Knell (2d6/+5) | 35
12th | +9/+4| +4 | +4 | +8 | Bonus Feat | 39
13th | +9/+4 | +4 | +4 | +8 | Fear Aura | 42
14th | +10/+5 | +4 | +4 | +9 | Animate Dread Warrior, Death Knell (3d6/+6) | 45
15th | +11/+6/+1 | +5 | +5 | +9 | Command Undead (Swift) | 49
16th | +12/+7/+2 | +5 | +5 | 10 | Tomb Tainted Soul | 52
17th | +12/+7/+2 | +5 | +5 | +10 | Stygian Aura, Death Knell (3d6/+7) | 56
18th | +13/+8/+3 | +6 | +6 | +11 | Bonus Feat | 59
19th | +14/+9/+4 | +6 | +6 | +11 | Curse of Revanance | 63
20th | +15/+10/+5 | +6 | +6 | +12 | Wave of Despair, Death Knell (4d6/+8) | 67
[/table]

Weapons and Armor Proficiencies: The necromancer is proficient with all simple weapons and the scythe. He is also proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

Class Abilities
Spellcasting
The necromancer acquires a small number of divine spells. Though he doesn't risk spell failure, he must make concentration checks if interrupted. All of his spells have a DC of 10 + 1/2 his necromancer level + his charisma modifier.
The necromancer does not draw his divine spells from a deity, and so doesn't risk the need for atonement, but simply uses his soul as a conduit.
Unlike most spellcasters the necromancer's spells per day and spells known are one and the same. Each time he learns a new spell, he may use that spell once per day. He is limited to the spells on the necromancer spell list (see spoiler).
He may select the same spell more than once to gain multiple castings. He may also select a spell of a lower level than the slot listed, although he gains no additional benefits for doing so. The necromancer does not gain bonus spells and may not reasearch additional spells.
Special: Instead of using a higher spell slot and/or increasing the spell level for casting a spell modified by a metamagic feat(s), the necromancer takes 1d4 points of constitution damage per metamagic feat added to a spell (regardless of its level). This bypasses any normal immunities to ability damage, but, if the necromancer has no constitution score it instead damages his charisma.


Spells Known and Spell List
{table=head] |{colsp=4} Spells Known
Level | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th
1st | - | - | - | -
2nd | - | - | - | -
3rd | - | - | - | -
4th | 1 | - | - | -
5th | 1 | - | - | -
6th | 2 | - | - | -
7th | 2 | - | - | -
8th | 2 | 1 | - | -
9th | 2 | 1 | - | -
10th | 2 | 2 | 1 | -
11th | 2 | 2 | 2 | -
12th | 2 | 2 | 2 | -
13th | 2 | 2 | 2 | -
14th | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1
15th | 3 | 2 | 2 | 2
16th | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2
17th | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2
18th | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2
19th | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3
20th | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4
[/table]

Necromancer Spell List

LM = Libris Mortis
HH = Heroes of Horror
SC = Spell Compendium
BoVD = Book of Vile Darkness
AU = Arcana Unearthed

1st
Ectoplasmic Armor (LM)
Chill of the Grave (LM)
Ghoul Light (LM)
Bestow Wound (HH)
Curse Water
Divine Favor
Doom
Shroud of Undeath (SC)
Status (SC)
Dark Wind - standard action cast no SR or save, make a ranged touch attack against a target within 20ft + 10ft per 2 caster levels and if succesful deal the damage you would have dealt with your primary hands weapon (even if unarmed) in melee including extra damage and modifiers that would have been applied
Death Grimace (BoVD)
Sorrow (BoVD)
Minor Heal Undead (alderac, Undead)
Gentle Repose
Feign Life (alderac, Undead)
Steal Health (AU) - except deals 1d6 + 1 damage per level
Touch of Nausea (AU) - except as heightened effect if target fails by 5 or more
Touch of Fear (AU) - except as heightened effect if target fails by 5 or more
Energy Blade (AU) - except it deals negative energy damage
Touch of Destruction (AU) - except a save only halves damage

2nd
Blade of Pain and Fear (LM)
Ghost Touch Armor (LM) - except only the caster benefits from this spell
Spawn Screen (LM) - except the range is personal
Vampiric Touch
Darkness
Ghoul Touch
Ebon Eyes (SC) - except it has a range of personal
Infernal Wound (SC) - except only the caster benefits from this spell
Claws of the Bebilith (BoVD) - except it doesn't have corruption cost and doesn't destroy the armor it pulls off
Boneblade (BoVD)
Sap Strength (BoVD)
Unliving Weapon (BoVD) - except it only affects undead that are under the caster's control (it is dispelled if the caster loses control)
Wall of Bone (alderac, Undead)
Strengthen Bone (alderac, Undead)
Ghost Touch Weapon (LM) - except only the caster benefits from this spell

3rd
Clutch of Orcus (SC) - and damage dealt increases by 1d4 each round it is maintained
Protection from Positive Energy (LM) - except has range of self (even if not undead)
Ectoplasmic Feedback (LM)
Revive Undead (LM) - except no HD or level is lost
Ghoul Gesture (LM)
Wither Limb (LM) - dispel magic has no effect, it's a curse that functions in antimagic
Deeper Darkness
Speak with Dead
Darkfire (SC) - except you also have the option to apply the effect to any melee strike you make, in which case the flames require no attack roll and deal half damage, one hand must remain free to do this
Wrack (SC)
Masochism (BoVD) - except the bonus is capped to half caster level
Sadism (BoVD) - except the bonus is capped to half caster level
Clutch of Orcus (BoVD)
Wave of Greif (BoVD)
Demon Wings (BoVD)
Mass, Minor Heal Undead (alderac, Undead) - as minor heal undead but heals up to 1 undead/caster level within 30ft instead.

4th
Consumptive Field (LM)
Spectral Touch (LM) - except it may only be used to heal undead
Spectral Touch (LM) - except it may only be used to deal negative levels
Manifest Nightmare (HH)
Pronouncement of Fate (HH)
Crushing Despair
Nightmare
Enervation
Blight
Revanance (SC)
Spell Vulnerability (SC)
Forbidden Speech (BoVD)
Stop Heart (BoVD)
Heal Undead (alderac, Undead)


Aura
The necromancer emanates an aura of evil (see cleric ability of same name and the detect evil spell). Additionally, regardless of his actual alignment, he gains the evil subtype.

Lv1 > Command Undead:
The necromancer may control any undead nearby. He gains the ability to rebuke undead as an evil cleric, but anytime he would rebuke them, he instead commands them. He may control up to 4 x his HD worth of undead, as long as no single undead's HD exceeds his own.
Intelligent undead are allowed a will save, instead of any normal saves present, DC of 10 + 1/2 your necromancer level. They may remake this save every 24 hours to escape control. An intelligent undead who makes its save is immune to this effect for 24 hours.
Unlike a normal cleric, the necromancer may use this ability an unlimited number of times per day. For the purpose of using and qualifying for feats that expend turning/rebuking uses he is still limited to the normal pool of uses (3 + his charisma). Any turning ability granted from another class treats the necromancer as being of the evil alignment regardless of his actual alignment.
At level 10 the necromancer may use this ability as a move action instead.
At level 15 the necromancer may use this ability as a swift action instead.

Lv1 > Animate Undead (Sp):
As a full round action the necromancer may cause any or all corpses that he is aware of within 30ft to raise as skeletons. This functions as the animate dead spell; but has no cost or HD cap, is limited to skeletons, and he may create no single undead of an HD higher than his own. In addition to their normal abilities these undead gain a burrow speed of 10ft, but may only burrow upwards.
Unlike the normal use of animate dead, he is not granted control. Instead these undead are automatically litigated to his command undead's control (counting towards its pool).

Lv1 > Grey Necromancy:
The necromancer may use any ability that could be considered necromancy (any ability listed as such or dealing with negative energy or death) or that has the evil descriptor, without risk of affecting his alignment. Such an ability or spell is still considered evil however (and if he has cleric or paladin levels for example will still need to atton).
Furthermore the necromancer may qualify for any feat or prestige class as if his alignment were evil or his actual alignment, whichever is more beneficial at the time.

Lv2 > Death Watch (Su):
The necromancer gains an ability similar to the detect undead spell in a 30ft range.
He automatically detects the presence or absence of corpses and undead within range (but not any specific numbers or locations).
With a standard action (requiring concentration if interrupted) the necromancer detects the exact location of any within range (and which ones are undead and which are corpses). By expending this to a full round action he may also gauge the HD totals of each.

Lv2 > Death Knell (Su):
The necromancer gains an ability similar to the death knell spell. Anytime he kills a target that is an intelligent (intelligence of 3 or higher) 'living creature' he heals 1d6 hit points and he gains a +2 bonus to strength. Any hit points beyond his maximum are granted as temporary hit points. This improves as seen on the chart above as the necromancer gains more levels.
The temporary hit points and strength bonus last for charisma modifier rounds (minimum of 1 round).
Bonuses from multiple death knell effects do not stack, but the newest iteration takes precedence over the old.

Lv3 > Bolster Undead:
Starting at 3rd level, the necromancer may choose to augment any undead under his control using his pool of desecration points. Should he lose control of an undead or should they be destroyed their points return to the pool. He may allocate or reallocate these points as he sees fit as a free action.
Each desecration point increase a single undead's HD by 1 granting the following benefits: increasing bab by 1 per each new HD, increase viable saves by 1 per 3 new HD, and increase/grant natural armor by 1 per 3 new HD.
The HD granted in this manner do not immediatly grant these undead hit points, instead they gain recover 1 hit point per round until they heal an amount equal to the difference of their previous hit point maximum and their new maximum total. If HD are lost from removal of these points all benefits they grant, including hit points, are lost.
Any attempt to invest points into an undead that would bring him over his limit automatically fails.

Lv4 > Necrosis (Ex):
The necromancer gains his charisma modifier as a bonus to all saves made against permanant hit point drain, magical death effects, negative energy effects, ability damage, ability drain, energy drain, poison, and disease.
At level 9 he gains complete immunity to all of the above listed effects.

Lv5 > Curse of Revenance (Su):
Any living creature slain by the necromancer is risen as if targeted by his animate undead special ability (assuming they have skeleton), but is not commanded.
He may choose to suppress or resume this ability as a free action (and may do so even if it isn't his turn.
At level 19 this ability improves allowing his skeletons (all skeletons controlled by his command undead ability) to benefit from this ability. When he suppresses or resumes this ability it does so for himself and all minions.

Lv6, 12, 18 > Bonus Feats:
At each level indicated the necromancer gains a single metamagic, divine, or monstrous feat that he qualifies for.
Alternatively he may choose any feat, that he qualifies for, with one of the following feats as a direct prerequisite: corpsecrafter, tomb tainted soul, or the ability to turn or rebuke undead.

L7, 10 > Zone of Desecration (Su):
The necromancer radiates an aura of vile energy. He emanates a 5ft per 2 necromancer levels aura that effectively functions as the desecrate spell's primary use. Bonuses are doubled as normal if you enter the area of a shrine, altar, etc.
At level 10 the bonuses and penalties from desecrate double.

Lv11, 16 > Tomb Tainted Soul:
At level 11 the necromancer gains the benefits of the Tomb Tainted Soul feat. If he already possesses this feat, he may choose any feat with tomb tainted soul as a prerequisite that he qualifies for instead.
At level 16 he may choose another such feat that he qualifies for.
Special: If at any time the necromancer has taken all tomb tainted soul feats, he may instead select any feat that he qualifies for.

Lv13 > Fear Aura (Ex):
The necromancer radiates an aura of fear out to 30ft. Enemies in the area
must succeed on a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 his necromancer + his charisma modifier) or become shaken.
A creature who successfully saves cannot be affected by that dread necromancerís fear aura for 24 hours. Other necromancers (such as this class, the dread necromancer, true necromancer, necromancy specialist wizard, etc) are immune to this.
He may invest desecration points into this as he would undead, but this is done as a separate action (standard action). Removing points from it is a free action. For every 5 points invested the necromancer may choose one of the following benefits: the aura extends to 60ft, it ignores resistances and immunity to fear (though those with immunity still receive +4 bonus to resist), and/or any creature who fails its save by 5 or more becomes panicked instead of shaken.

Lv14 > Animate Dread Warrior (Sp):
The necromancer gains the ability to cast the Animate Dread Warrior spell (see unapproachable east) at will as a spell-like ability. He must still expend experience points as normal, though needn't have the material component.
Should any undead created from this be destroyed, he regains any xp invested (if the undead in question is restored to undeath it becomes a mere skeleton however).

Lv17 > Stygian Aura (Su):
A 30-foot-radius spread negative energy aura spreads from the Necromancer. All undead in the field (including the Necromancer if he is undead) are treated as if having turn resistance +4 and a negative energy version of fast healing equal to the necromancer's charisma modifier or 1 (whichever is higher).
Living creatures in the aura are treated as having two negative levels unless they have some sort of negative energy protection or protection from evil.
Creatures with 2 or fewer HD or levels perish (and, at the necromancerís option, rise as wights under the necromancer's command 1 minute later).
The necromancer may choose to exclude up to 3 + charisma modifier living creatures from this effect. He is immune to the effects of his own aura.
He may suppress or resume this aura as a full round action.
thx to silva stormrage for this ability

Lv20 > Wave of Despair (Sp):
Once per day the necromancer may cast the spell Wail of the Banshee at a caster level of his necromancer level as a standard action. This is considered a divine spell and has no limit to the number of creatures it can affect. Creatures who succeed on their save instead take 1d6 damage per 4 necromancer levels and are shaken for 1d4 + 1 rounds. Creatures immune to or healed by negative energy are immune to this.
Alternatively the necromancer may channel it through a melee attack as an immediate action. It has the same effect, except the primary melee target takes a -4 to its save and the necromancer benefits from death knell if any creature is killed by the effect.

Design Notes:
This is my attempt at creating a playable necromancer. My problem with most necromancy classes is that they focus on spells instead of raising undead or fighting in melee, which, in my opinion, are the staples of playing a necromancer.
Another minor issue I've had with all spellcasters, especially those with lesser progressions, is the spell saves (so I changed it).
The grey necromancy ability is because I've always hated the necromancers have to be evil thing. Maybe I should ban lawful good characters though (it would make sense and not be completely restricting)...
And so this is may attempt at creating a gish necromancer with a small usable troop of undead (although gaining an army of meat shields in still viable). I am hoping this makes a viable tier 3 class.

A Side Note:It's nice to have time to get on the forums again. Between college homework, looking for a job, and getting hit by a car, haven't had much time. Next quarter looks to be calmer though (hopefully).
Speaking of not enough time, I'm finally getting to play D&D again in a couple of weeks. 4 months is much too long to not play (though I did get to play a single session once, but aaargh withdrawal).


Feats
Undead Blade
Prerequisites: Levels in both the necromancer and duskblade class
Your necromancer and duskblade levels stack for the purpose of dessication points. Additionally your caster levels from the two classes stack. This does not grant new spells known or per day.
This may not bring your caster level above your HD.

Dark Channeling
Prerequisites: Undead Blade feat
You gain an increase in caster level, and spells known and spells per day, as if you had advanced one level in both the necromancer and duskblade class.
This may be taken multiple times, but it replaces the effective caster levels granted by undead blade (and may not be taken if it exceeds the total of your two classes).

Scrollitens [Corpsecrafter]
Prerequisites: Corpsecrafter feat
When you animate a skeleton(s) you may choose to imbed a magic of a scroll into a single skeleton as an immediate action. You must be able to cast the spell to do this (although it can be emulated with a DC 10 + 5 * spell level UMD check). The effect must have an area or burst (such as the fireball or darkness spell).
The skeleton gets +x to its natural attacks, were x is the spells level. As a standard action the necromancer can set off the spell, destroying the skeleton and creating the effects of the spell centered at the point where the skeleton was destroyed.
thx to bobthe6th for this feat

bobthe6th
2011-12-19, 05:05 PM
seems fun. so... it can always have level*4 HD in undead, and because of its desecration points they will mostly be 4 equal HD skeletons. am I getting that right? The way I would deal with the good necromancer is an ACF. I would make the skeletons all Undying positive energy equivalents. change around the spells a little, and flip a couple of the auras and there you go. perhapce a nutral necromncer could chose between the two.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-19, 05:06 PM
A necromancer using the Libris Mortis book that does not get Mother Cyst? RAAAAAAAAAAAGE :rage:

Please fill in the rest of your skill's ability scores. That just looks weird and distracting.

eftexar
2011-12-19, 05:10 PM
That was the idea. I think 4 undead is fair (especially since they don't get feats and stuff). You don't think that's too unbalanced do you?
Positive energy equivalents might work, but... I'm big on the darker edgier characters. Plus I was thinking of the roleplaying fun. Can you imagine when every paladin you run into thinks you are evil?

edit-
I filled in the skills. Sorry, forget what scores went with them.
Actually I'm not familiar with mother cyst...

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-19, 05:16 PM
edit-
I filled in the skills. Sorry, forget what scores went with them.
Actually I'm not familiar with mother cyst...

:smalleek: You're not familiar with Mother Cyst?!

First of all, crack open your copy of Libris Mortis and check out the feats section.

Then, look at this prestige class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202819).

Mother Cyst is like, the best necromancer feat ever. Period

bobthe6th
2011-12-19, 05:20 PM
man... this makes me want to change the fluff to make a summoner. make a generic skeliton like monster to use as a base, then let each add a type to it. keep it to low bab for 4*HD with all bad saves, and then just add buffing. would you mind if I steal barrow some of the mechanics?


now some PEACH.
I would stretch the level 7 desiderata. make the basic desecrate level 7, then the boosted version at 10th. that would fill in a dead level, and make a dark skull still viable for a level. also, I would make the aura level dependent. say 10'/3levels, so at level 7 it would be 20, at 9 it would be 30, and at 18 it would be 60'.

also, an ability that streamlines the command method. say make it move action at level a, swift action at level b and free action at level c.

edit: as to the edginess... well there are DMs out there that want to run campaings were Evil would be a pain to run. a nice shiny "they're nice undead" option would cause less pain in the long run.

another fun Idea. an Enchanter variant, with skeletons replaced with commoners:smallbiggrin:. go my one cp minions go!

Silva Stormrage
2011-12-19, 05:36 PM
:smalleek: You're not familiar with Mother Cyst?!

First of all, crack open your copy of Libris Mortis and check out the feats section.

Then, look at this prestige class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202819).

Mother Cyst is like, the best necromancer feat ever. Period

I like the feat and made a class around it too but its not the end all necromancy feat you know :smallwink:. Corpse crafter is probably more important than Mother Cyst anyway. For a minion master anyway.

Interesting class though. I think Waves of Despair is a bit weak though. Being able to duplicate a 9th level spell (a not that impressive one at that) at level 20 once a day isn't that good. You could increase the use per days if you want or you can maybe have it channeled through a melee strike. (Similar to Crona's Screech Gama if you watch Soul Eater)

I would also suggest allow you to suppress curse of reverence as a free action that can be done not on your turn. That way if you kill more than one person in a round you could still refresh it.

Not sure if you would care at fixing this exploit since 99% of people wouldn't do this but for Death Knell if someone had a bag full of ants and awakened them they could kill each individual ant for incredible healing.

bobthe6th
2011-12-19, 05:47 PM
well... yeah that I would call DM throws things at the player.

maybe limit it to 1 knell per level per round.

thing this class needs. scythe proficiency!

you need something to stop undead Necromancers casting meta without penalty. as is, since they are immune to con damage they can use as much meta as they want. "all spells are fell drain, maximized, empowered, and persisted." perhaps have undead take charisma damage?

Silva Stormrage
2011-12-19, 05:54 PM
well... yeah that I would call DM throws things at the player.

maybe limit it to 1 knell per level per round.

thing this class needs. scythe proficiency!


YES! It needs scythe proficiency!

But ya thats why I said 99% of players wouldn't do it. Just after working on my soul eater class I keep seeing that exploit pop up everywhere >.>

bobthe6th
2011-12-19, 05:59 PM
ah solution! Druids appear, and take recompense for the dead life out of the necromancer. this involves clamps, hot coals, and ferrets. really not a good idea to mess with druids...

eftexar
2011-12-19, 06:05 PM
Changed desecrate to scale.
Used a channel method with wave of despair (because soul eater is awesome).
Curse of reverence is a free action now.
And I don't think the ants would work because of the intelligence requirement. edit- Didn't see awakened ability, but unfortunately not much I can do about that. But being that it doesn't stack, it shouldn't be a problem.
Mother cyst is cool but doesn't meet the fluff. Nice class though.

Will streamline command method (though I don't know about allowing it as a free action) shortly.
Changed damage dealt by metamagic. I didn't catch that.
Added scythe proficiency for kicks.
I might change death knell if more people think I should, but I think its fine because it doesn't stack.

bobthe6th, go ahead and take some of the mechanics.

Thanks for the help. Any other issues? How about balance?

edit-
Yes druids are scary. During a campaign I played alongside a druid, the druid was more powerful than all 3 of our other members combined (we had a cleric/someotherdivineclass (with exalted feats), sorcerer/fighter, and fighter/initiator). It got pretty insane (we played to level 60 with gestalt so yeah).

Silva Stormrage
2011-12-19, 06:09 PM
Changed desecrate to scale.
Used a channel method with wave of despair (because soul eater is awesome).
Curse of reverence is a free action now.
And I don't think the ants would work because of the intelligence requirement.
Mother cyst is cool but doesn't meet the fluff. Nice class though.

Will streamline command method (though I don't know about allowing it as a free action) shortly.
Changed damage dealt by metamagic. I didn't catch that.
Added scythe proficiency for kicks.
I might change death knell if more people think I should, but I think its fine because it doesn't stack.

bobthe6th, go ahead and take some of the mechanics.

Thanks for the help. Any other issues? How about balance?

edit-
Yes druids are scary. During a campaign I played alongside a druid, the druid was more powerful than all 3 of our other members combined (we had a cleric (with exalted feats), sorcerer/fighter, and fighter/initiator).

Go tier 1 classes! Spell To Power Erudite is worse though :smallbiggrin:.

And I actually didn't notice that death knell didn't stack. Its probably fine without any change.

I think it's pretty good for balance. Its around swordsage's level I would say. High Tier 4 or Low Tier 3.

bobthe6th
2011-12-19, 06:17 PM
cause it was a caster//fighter+a fighter as a class feature. not sure what they were on when they wrote it...
the idea was to cast awaken on the ants... but it is one target, so it would be 25 XP for each ant.

thing this needs. HD VISION FOR CORPSES, this is annoying but would make the OOC=IC knowledge.

most of the changes look good though...

what was the Idea behind behind the desecration point progression?

also you still have two one dead levels.

also cool. I had been playing around with an idea, but now I have a mechanic to build around I will probably finish it.

eftexar
2011-12-19, 06:26 PM
Will add HD vision for corpses.
The desecration progression is set to allow for 3/4 of the undead you create to be able to reach max level. I like choices (no matter how small) so it was natural to build the mechanic around that: should I have a few undead at max HD or a few more at less HD.
Do you really think I need to fill in the empty level? A single spell is gained, so it isn't entirely dead. I guess if anybody has ideas for a minor boon I could do that.
Thanks.

TravelLog
2011-12-19, 06:27 PM
I like it, but I'd recommend granting 5th level spells and some more melee oriented abilities. As is, I don't feel like this is much of a gish. Maybe even grant some unique abilities about channeling power through a scythe or other stuff like that. Moreover, I'd like to see some new abilities gained between level 12 and 20, as is it's mostly just enhancement of pre-existing ones.

bobthe6th
2011-12-19, 06:32 PM
its 19th... perhaps let the Curse of Revenance extend to the skeletons? then he dosn't have to walk up and scythe every foe himself to keep his hoard full...

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-12-19, 06:38 PM
I... don't get this. Dread Necro already does this... better, in fact. Particularly if you use Southern Magician and Arcane Disciple (Pride) so that you get persistable Divine Power.

eftexar
2011-12-19, 06:42 PM
Brilliant idea. I'll extend it to his minions.
As far as adding 5th level spells or more melee abilities, I'm a bit concerned. I worry it will make the class too powerful (as it has to be approved by my DM), but I suppose I will add a couple of abilities in the 12 - 20 area. I hadn't realized how dead it was up there.
What are everyone else's thoughts on 5th level spells though? I already slipped a few in as 4th level spells.
I just got the idea to create a feat that allows a duskblade/necromancer to use either spell list for spell channel and quicken spell (and maybe a few other synergies) too.

edit-
Ah but a dread necromancer has relatively crappy minions (or at least makes it difficult to make them useful like most undead-oriented classes do), has a lower BaB, no melee oriented abilities, and has lich transformation (this class grants many of the best benefits of being undead without gaining their weaknesses, and if I want to be a lich I'll take a template).
Don't get me wrong. It's one of my favorite necromancer classes, but feels too much like a caster to me. And I prefer classes that are along the lines of the rogue, duskblade, shadowcaster, swordsage, and warlock.

another edit-
Consequently what is Southern Magician? I haven't hit the books for a while.

Knight13
2011-12-19, 07:17 PM
Hmm, this reminds me of the Bone Knight PrC from Eberron: Five Nations, except it's stronger. I always thought that was a great PrC, since it allows for a noble, knight-like character who also uses necromancy.

eftexar
2011-12-19, 07:22 PM
Just looked at that class. It is pretty neat. I actually wasn't aware there was already a 'good'-aligned necromancy class. I might have to take a few levels in it, if my DM approves my necromancer class.

Silva Stormrage
2011-12-19, 07:32 PM
Brilliant idea. I'll extend it to his minions.
As far as adding 5th level spells or more melee abilities, I'm a bit concerned. I worry it will make the class too powerful (as it has to be approved by my DM), but I suppose I will add a couple of abilities in the 12 - 20 area. I hadn't realized how dead it was up there.
What are everyone else's thoughts on 5th level spells though? I already slipped a few in as 4th level spells.
I just got the idea to create a feat that allows a duskblade/necromancer to use either spell list for spell channel and quicken spell (and maybe a few other synergies) too.

edit-
Ah but a dread necromancer has relatively crappy minions (or at least makes it difficult to make them useful like most undead-oriented classes do), has a lower BaB, no melee oriented abilities, and has lich transformation (this class grants many of the best benefits of being undead without gaining their weaknesses, and if I want to be a lich I'll take a template).
Don't get me wrong. It's one of my favorite necromancer classes, but feels too much like a caster to me. And I prefer classes that are along the lines of the rogue, duskblade, shadowcaster, swordsage, and warlock.

another edit-
Consequently what is Southern Magician? I haven't hit the books for a while.

Southern Magician is a feat that lets you cast an arcane spell as a divine spell a limited times a day. Its used so DN can have DMM

And also, DN gets A LOT of REALLY strong minions. They might not be able to compete with say, a warblade. (Well without animate dread warrior) but they can easily out preform a fighter individually. Planar Binding can also be used to call whatever creatures you want. Never underestimate a Dread Necromancer's power :smallbiggrin:

However, it takes a bit of optimization to actually get a dread necromancer to work decently in melee so a necromancer melee class is fine. Also a lot of DM's I have found seem to hate DN for its super high undead cap and its at will healing.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-12-19, 07:32 PM
edit-
Ah but a dread necromancer has relatively crappy minions (or at least makes it difficult to make them useful like most undead-oriented classes do), has a lower BaB, no melee oriented abilities, and has lich transformation (this class grants many of the best benefits of being undead without gaining their weaknesses, and if I want to be a lich I'll take a template).
Don't get me wrong. It's one of my favorite necromancer classes, but feels too much like a caster to me. And I prefer classes that are along the lines of the rogue, duskblade, shadowcaster, swordsage, and warlock.

another edit-
Consequently what is Southern Magician? I haven't hit the books for a while.

First off, Dread Necro has probably the best minions in the game, bar none. Has Charnel Touch that can deliver negative levels at later levels, has a FREE +4 ECL Template at the end. That's not even getting into Animate Dread Warrior through either Spellstitching or Advanced Learning, which gives you pets that have class levels.

Southern Magician is a feat which allows your spells to be considered arcane or divine, whichever you prefer. Then your DMM: Persist Divine Power (from Arcane Devotee: Pride domain), and you now have a FULL BAB.

Then you pick up Aura of Terror from Advanced Learning, and now your aura Frightens opponents, without a HD limitation.

4th level spells does not a Gish make.

Silva Stormrage
2011-12-19, 07:36 PM
First off, Dread Necro has probably the best minions in the game, bar none. Has Charnel Touch that can deliver negative levels at later levels, has a FREE +4 ECL Template at the end. That's not even getting into Animate Dread Warrior through either Spellstitching or Advanced Learning, which gives you pets that have class levels.

Southern Magician is a feat which allows your spells to be considered arcane or divine, whichever you prefer. Then your DMM: Persist Divine Power (from Arcane Devotee: Pride domain), and you now have a FULL BAB.

Then you pick up Aura of Terror from Advanced Learning, and now your aura Frightens opponents, without a HD limitation.

4th level spells does not a Gish make.

Hah! My first time Swordsaging someone :smallbiggrin:

eftexar
2011-12-19, 07:53 PM
It seems I am lacking a book...
Anyways I'm fine with another class of this archetype existing. The dread necromancer doesn't have the flavor I'm going for (and besides homebrewing is fun) and has the classic "can't be good" restriction.
The main difficulty is going to be that I'm not sure how many undead the DM will have lying around, so I was also trying to remedy that problem.
Animate Dread Warrior is a spell I was unaware of, but looking at it, it would be helpful. Maybe I should add it to this class as a class ability.

bobthe6th
2011-12-19, 07:57 PM
Thrall heard has the best minions in the game bar none. think about it, you may get 4+cha*level HD in skeletons and zombies+a little less in control. Unless the DM is nice and tosses useful stuff for rebuking/commanding. Thrall Herd gets 3+equal level cohorts, a huge hoard of minions that are all normal monsters/followers. Thrall Herd is the best Minion class, bar none. it is insanely broken, but it still holds the record.

Knight13
2011-12-19, 08:05 PM
Just looked at that class. It is pretty neat. I actually wasn't aware there was already a 'good'-aligned necromancy class.
It largely only works due to the fluff of Eberron in general and Karrnath in particular. Good-aligned necromancy classes are normally hard to justify since the character made a choice to get involved with necromancy in the first place, which is pretty much unambiguously evil in most settings. Eberron has more moral ambiguity than most settings, what with clerics able to become corrupted without losing their casting. Karrnath turned to necromancy as a means of replacing troop losses, so it's practical rather than ideological. Plus they sell it as a way for fallen Karrnathi soldiers to continue fighting for their homeland even beyond death, so they make becoming a zombie almost sound like a noble thing. And of course, they needed frontline commanders to control the undead in battle. Thus, the Bone Knight.

Silva Stormrage
2011-12-19, 08:06 PM
Thrall heard has the best minions in the game bar none. think about it, you may get 4+cha*level HD in skeletons and zombies+a little less in control. Unless the DM is nice and tosses useful stuff for rebuking/commanding. Thrall Herd gets 3+equal level cohorts, a huge hoard of minions that are all normal monsters/followers. Thrall Herd is the best Minion class, bar none. it is insanely broken, but it still holds the record.

Assuming you mean thrallherd then ya. It essentially gives you leadership with cohorts that come back everyday. However, it is also a prestige class so it doesn't reaaaalllly count. Also its not 3 equal level cohorts... It gets one cohort at 1st level and a second at 10th. And the first one is your level -1 and the second is your level -2. Still ridiculous but not quite that bad. The worst is when you combine them.

Spell To Power Erudite with Animate Dread Warrior going into thrallherd. You can kill your thrall and animate it with Animate Dread Warrior so it keeps all of its abilities and you have no control cap. Then you wait a day get another thrall and rinse and repeat.

eftexar
2011-12-19, 08:14 PM
All good strategies and I'll have to remember them if I'm not allowed a homebrew class in a future campaign.
The truth is I was hoping to have a halfway decent melee necromancer without having to obsess with optimization or take more than 1 or 2 prestige classes.
Maybe I'm lazy, but I was hoping to spend some time on working out a cool backstory, because or DM has given us free reign (the campaign will be based off of our backstories). It's sort of a pain to have to venture through 10 or so books just to make a character (which is usually what I end up doing as much as I complain).
The last time I optimized a necromancer (although it was a thought experiment and not for a game) I ended up with over 700 level 1 skeletons and still had decent spellcasting to boot (and this was without feats to improve them). As useless as they would be imagine taking the feat that makes them explode.

Edit -
Anyways I'm debating about adding another level of spells. I'm just comparing it to what the dusk blade can do and wondering if, with the number of abilities this class has, if granting the normal gish progression would be too much.
Anybody have any ideas for another ability to replace the question marks?

Silva Stormrage
2011-12-19, 08:30 PM
As a lvl 17th ability here is one:

Stygian Aura (Su)
A 30-foot-radius spread negative energy aura spreads from the Necromancer. All undead in the field (including the Necromancer if he is undead) are treated as if having turn resistance +4 and a negative energy version of fast healing 4. Living creatures in the aura are treated as having two negative levels unless they have some sort of negative energy protection or protection from evil. Creatures with 2 or fewer HD or levels perish (and, at the atropalís option, rise as wights under the atropalís command 1 minute later). These Wights can't create spawn.

Based off the Atropal Scion's Aura.

bobthe6th
2011-12-19, 08:38 PM
How about scrollitens? You can create a skeleton with a scroll imbedded in it, you must be able to cast the spell. The skeleton gets +x to its natural attacks, were x is the spells level. as a standard action the necromancer can set off the spell, destroying the skeleton.

eftexar
2011-12-19, 08:41 PM
I'm going to go with silva's idea, but scrollitens would be incredibly amusing.
Maybe I'll make a feat for it.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-12-21, 09:25 PM
As a suggestion on Fear Aura...

Frightful Presence sucks. It's HD capped, which means it isn't going to actually affect anything. Second, it comes way too late. I could get a Paladin variant that can do this by level 2, and even the 'caster' Dread Necro gets this by level 5.

How about this... Start it off by using the same language that the Dread Necro's Fear Aura has... Shaken if you fail a save, but out to 30'. Then you either have upgraded versions of this, or you allow him to spend desecration points to bump up the fear factor, or even bypass immunities. It'll be strong, but not game-breaking

eftexar
2011-12-21, 09:41 PM
Alright changed it and used your desecration idea.
Is frightful presence really capped though? That's sort of dumb. The only situation I can think of that HD caps don't bother me is with turning and rebuking.